Morbid - Episode 499: The Abduction of Betty and Barney Hill

Episode Date: October 2, 2023

In the fall of 1961, Betty and Barney Hill took a trip to Niagara Falls. On the drive back from Canada to their home in Portsmouth, NH, the Hills claimed their trip was interrupted when, after stopping to investigate a strange flying object hovering above the car, the couple was abducted by what Barney later described as “beings [that] were somehow not human.”Thank you to the wondrous Dave White for Research Assistance!References:Friedman, Stanton, and Kathleen Marden. 2007. Captured! The Betty and Barney Hill UFO Experience. Red Wheel : Newburyport, MA.Palmer, Barry. 1965. "Portsmouth couple wes 600 persons here." Nashua Telegraph, December 1: 3.Public Broadcasting Sysetm. 1997. Nova: Kidnapped by UFOs? Boston, MA, April 1.Robinson, J. Dennis. 1999. "The Grounding of Betty Hill." The Portsmouth Herald, February 5.—. 2008. The UFO romance of Betty and Barney Hill. Accessed August 17, 2023. http://www.seacoastnh.com/the-ufo-romance-of-betty-and-barney-hill/?showall=1.The Portsmouth Herald. 1969. "Barney Hill dies in city at age 46." The Portsmouth Herald, February 26: 3.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

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where you can listen to even the royals exclusively and add free right now. Hey, weedos, I'm Ash. I'm Helena. And this is morbid. She just burnt. I don't know. I just didn't know we were recording. Old burp. We should put it in.

We should keep it in. That would be horrifying for people the year first as soon as they turned on their thing. I would love it if I turned on my radio when I heard a burp. My rawtia. My rawtia. We are all kinds of fucking goofy today.

We're feeling wily do I lead today? What's your case? My case has to do with the UFO. Oh, fantastic. It's fantastic. I was like, we're feeling goofy. What's your case? Yeah, that's the right energy to take into this, I think.

I'm gonna talk about the Betty and Barney Hill abduction story. Oh. Betty and Barney Hill, I would like to start this off by saying they are such a precious couple and I love them both. I love them both. And you will also love them by the end of this. They just seem delightful everywhere right now. And you know, you take what you will from this, but I think it happened.

I think you opposed a real. In fact, I wanted to shout out a new show that was actually not new, but it's new to me that I've been watching on Showtime. I was telling you about it the other day. Oh yeah. It's JJ Abrams UFO. Show. And it is so good.

It's either three or four parts. I watched the first two. And it is like chilling. It's an interesting subject everyone. I know sometimes it gets the old look over. People are like, man. You have those, I'm not really interested. And it's like, I don't know, maybe you should be.

You sure about that? You sure about that? That's kind of like what the show goes over. Yeah. It's been like, oh, like so tall. And you really look into it. And when you look into, we'll cover some more of these because they're very fascinating.

I love them. When you get like a mass sighting, like the Phoenix lights. See one or the one in the Berkshires and Massachusetts where over 200 people saw it. Something's a ride there. You know, we can't discount it. I love it.

So let's get into this because it's quite a tale. Get into it, yeah. So we're going to start with talking about who Betty and Barney Hill are. So you can get an idea of them, how they came together, all that fun stuff. Are they the cutest couple in the nation? The real cute. So Eunice Elizabeth Betty Barrett was born June 28th, 1919 in New Hampshire, a Canza. Yeah, and grew up on a farm in Kingston, New Hampshire, which is a small town near the Massachusetts border. Massachusetts?

What? You know, farming was definitely difficult and somewhat unprofitable life at the time, but the barits were a super close knit, very cute, very supportive family. Seems like everything was, you know, pretty top notch on there, that one. But, you know, she was a very curious, very creative,

very highly intelligent child. And she spent a lot of her early life just dreaming about escaping the farm life and going onto other opportunities. According to her college friend, Mary Ann Franklin, who we'll mention later to, Betty's first attempt at becoming independent and breaking out on her own was when she tried to join a traveling circus as an acrobatant training.

That's incredible. But her parents wouldn't let her go. Lame. They wouldn't let her join the circus. Why not? So after graduating from high school in 1937, she enrolled at the University of New Hampshire, UNH.

I've been there many times. She met and befriended her college friend that we just mentioned. Marion Franklin there. Marion Franklin was the only black student on that campus. Oh, no. At the time, can you imagine being in that position? No, I cannot on any level and any galaxy. And what time period was this?

This was in 1937. Oh, God. So it was through Marion Franklin that Betty learned, this is like really the first she learned about the extent of the inequality and marginalization experience by black Americans around the country,

but particularly in the South. And this is when Betty began really taking part in advocating for liberal causes. Hell yeah. Later Franklin said she was very active. Betty began really taking part in advocating for liberal causes. Hell yeah. Later, Franklin said she was very active. She may have had a problem as a result of that

because so many people at the time were not accepting of racial equality. So she stepped out because she met Marion Franklin, became her friend and was like, fuck this, I'm gonna stand up for you. Hell yeah, I love that. Which fuck yeah, Betty. Betty forever. Betty forever.

Now in the summer following her sophomore year, she contracted a difficult and very long lasting abdominal infection. And it actually stopped her from going back to you and H for her junior year. She was like really sick. So instead, while she was kind of healing up and, you know, while she was feeling better but not able to return to school, she took a job waiting tables at Rudy's farm kitchen in Hampton, New Hampshire. Rudy's. Hampton is like a seaside town not far away from where she grew up. I know Hampton.

And working there is when she met Bob Stewart who was the cook at Rudy's. She was immediately drawn to Bob. This is not Barney, by the way. I was like, I don't care about Bob. She was immediately drawn to Bob. She said like he had a very warm personality, who's very charming. He's just got married. Now, what she said about Bob was Bob Stewart seemed like the best thing on the horizon. So I grabbed him.

Oh, that's true. No, so they dated for a little bit and got married in June 1941. And according to Betty, Bob had an ex-wife at the time and it was then that his ex-wife heard about him getting remarried. Oh, no. Not pleased about it. So Betty said she picked up the three kids and dumped them at Bob's mother's house. Oh. And at this time, Bob's mother was not able to care for three young children that were her grandchildren. That's a lot.

So Bob and Betty took sole custody of the children and three years after this, Betty officially adopted them. Oh, wow. And became a full-time mother, full-time homemaker. And Bob ended up getting a much better paying job at the Portsmouth Naval shipyard because the shipyard at the time was super, super active because World War II was coming to a close. So lots of stuff going on.

Literally everything going on in the story already. Yeah, and at this point, you look like, okay, this seems positive. They took the kids, Betty stepped up and was like, you know, your mind now, I'm going to take care of you. But then, you know, once he gets the job at the shipyard, all of a sudden, she found out that Bob had been cheating on her with multiple women. Oh, fuck, Bob. See, I knew he was no berry. Yeah.

And she said, at first, I thought he was a pretty good guy, and it took me years to find out different. Oh, that's really sad. So after 14 years of marriage and raising his three children, they ended up divorcing in 1955. Kidding me, she raised his kids and he was cheating on her all the while. Yeah, what a joke.

Luckily she did get some money from the divorce settlement. And so she bought her own house in Portsmouth, New Hampshire and found a job at a local department store. She was like, I'm gonna start over. So not long after she moved into the house, she suddenly was approached by a representative from the Gulf Oil Company, and they wanted to buy the house on behalf of the company.

What? She's like, I literally just bought this. Well, no, she was like, I just bought it. This is like my first independent foray into the world. Like, I'm feeling a little like weird or not. Territory about this. Yeah. But she was like, you know what?

I'm gonna be a boss bitch and I'm gonna negotiate the shit out of this. And she ended up getting more than twice what the company had initially offered. And happily sold them the house. Betty is a boss ass bitch. So not long after though, she was like, well, it was nice. She was like, I'm a little worried I'm gonna miss that house because it was like my first independent thing. You know, like, also. And she was like, wait, I kind of feel like I kind of gave that up

a little too quick. So she went back to the Gulf representative, just at a curiosity. She was like, I'm just gonna shoot my shot. And she said, what do you plan to do with that? You know, I never really asked you. But with one of the plans here, and they said, oh, we're just gonna tear it down.

And she was like, okay, how would I offer you $1? And I take the house and have it relocated to another lot and you can keep the lot. Are you serious? And they agreed for $1. So she made twice the money they offered her on that house. And then got to keep it. She bought the house back for $1, got to keep the entire thing

and just gave them the property. What a story. Yeah, already. And she moved the house to a nearby lot and she lived there for the rest of her life. Incredible. I love that. I'm so glad that she didn't have to give it up.

I know. It really worked out. Your first house is so special. Yeah, like that you get on your own. You know, after what she went through, it's like, hell yeah, Betty. So in the summer of 1956, the house is being relocated from one lot to another.

And during that time, Betty had to stay at a boarding house that was owned by a couple who recently moved to New Hampshire from Philadelphia. Now, while at this boarding house, she met Barney Hill. Let's go. Now, at the time, Barney was in the area on vacation

with his wife Ruby and their young children. Oh. And stayed at the, like just for a time at the boarding house while they were passing through. Initially, the hills and Betty, they all got along very well. She liked all of them. They were all friends.

They kept in touch. They decided that, you decided that everything was cool. And later, Barney and his wife ended up separating in 1957. And they were not to, like, this was all long distance. And so it's not like they were like meeting up or anything like that. Like they were genuinely friends. It just happened that they ended up separating. Right.

Immediately, he was like, he ended up talking to Betty and was like, she's such a good friend and both had a thing for you Betty. Soon their friendship developed into romance. And you know, there was no funny business beforehand. It doesn't sound like it was just friendship that developed into something else. That's beautiful. Now, let's talk about Barney. Let's.

So Barney is calling him Barrier earlier. I'm sorry. That's okay. They've said he's no barry. I mean, he's no, that guy was no barry either. That's a problem. So you he's no berry. I mean, he's no that guy was no berry either. That's a problem So you were right. He was not that so Barney Hill was born July 29th 1922. What is that making July 29th? Hold on All done my brain is farting

fucking Okay, my sister's birthday is July 25th and she is a Leo. So I think that's Leo. Okay, yeah. Take it. So a Leo and a cancer. I don't know how those two things line up. Yeah, that's fine. He was born in Newport, New Zealand for Virginia,

but little is known about his early life. He ended up dropping out of high school and he worked a bit as a store clerk and then he ended up joining the army. He served there for three years as a truck driver in World War II. He ended up being honorably discharged in 1943 after a grenade incident. Oh wow. And it was during his time in the military that he met and married his first wife Ruby and they had two sons in the decade that followed. Okay. Now after, after his discharge, he found work as a male carrier with the post office in Philadelphia.

And this is when he became very active in what was at the time, the very burgeoning civil rights movement and other community causes. He served as a committee man for his son's boy scout troop. Paul. Yeah. This show is sponsored by Better Help. Do you ever feel like your brain is kind of getting its own way? You know what's actually good for you and what you should do, but you just

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They ended up really just talking through letters and phone calls. However, man tech. like I said, was long distance. They ended up really just talking through letters and phone calls. Have a romantic? I know, but then it changed in the summer of 1957 because she re-enrolled that UNH and took an internship position with the Layton Farm School, which was a home for delinquent girls in Philadelphia. Oh, wow. Now, the internship in Philadelphia made it possible

for Betty and Barney to be together in person. Love it. They were romance, romance, romance, romance. And when the internship ended a few months later, they were now facing being long distance again. So Barney made the decision to relocate with Betty. I love that. So for Barney, he had spent most of his life in and around Philadelphia.

So this was a big decision, a big mood. He was uprooting his whole life. Yeah, any children too, the adult fear. Yeah, he did. So he was like, I'm gonna have to really make this work. And he was also gonna be relocating to New Hampshire, which was a place where he would be one of very few black people in the entire state. Yeah. Even today, the population is only 10% people of color, most of whom live

in the larger cities, not like the smaller areas. Right. So this was like, at the time, especially a big source of stress. Yeah, nerve-wracking. It cannot claim to know what this feels like in a way. So for Barney, the shift was very stressful, but he did acclimate very quickly to life in sports, sports myths. Okay. he ended up making a lot of friends very easily. Hell yeah. With the tenants and Betty's building, and some of the people in her social circle, so he really just fell right into it.

He had a good community. Yeah. And as a US postal worker, he was able to transfer from his job in Philadelphia to one in Boston, like pretty easily. Nice. So that wasn't an issue, but the transfer meant

that he would be working one of those shitty shifts because he was transferred in, which happened to be opposite Betty's schedule. So they hardly saw each other at first. Oh, that sucks. And it's like they're just getting out of this long distance thing. Now, when Betty and Barney married in May 1960,

their work schedules were so intense that they couldn't even take a honeymoon at first. They had to go right back to work after getting married. It would end up being 16 months before Barney was able to take time off from his postal route to actually go on a belated honeymoon. Oh my God, that sucks. So on September 15th, 1961, he finally got approval

to take a few days off from his job. And he decided he was going to surprise Betty with a trip to Niagara Falls in Montreal. Oh my gosh, awesome. And he got the news on a Friday evening, so he planned to wait until Monday. He was like, he told her what was going to happen, but he was like, we're going to go Monday, because that's when the bank's open, and we can begin our trip. Right. But Betty was like, I don't even care what we do.

I just want to be together and go. So she was like, I don't even care about the banks. I don't care about getting more money. Like, so they just pooled the cash they had on hand, which was $70 in total, oh my God. And Betty was like,

that's enough. It's fine with me. And she was like, if we stick to a type budget, we bring food with us. We just don't eat at a ton of restaurants. We'll be good. We just want to like spend time together. Yeah. That's it. Let's just go. So I love them. Now early Sunday morning, September 17th, they packed up some food, their stuff, and they brought their

Daxen Delcy in the back seat, and they began making their way to Canada. I love this. Now they very strictly strictly adhere to their budget on the first few days. So Betty and Barney decided, you know what? We're gonna make our way to downtown Montreal on Tuesday morning, September 19th. We'll book a motel for the night. We'll take in a show in the city.

It'll be great. It's so romantic. I know, but they got directions from somebody. And unfortunately, that person only spoke French. So they misunderstood. And it caused them to get lost on their way from Niagara to Montreal. So they were driving east, and they

realized they had gotten very lost from the downtown area. Where the hell are we? They'd kind of wasted a lot of their day. So they decided, you know what, let's just find a hotel for the night. We'll try again tomorrow. But then they realized, oh, wait, it's difficult to find a hotel that's going to let a dog in.

Oh, true. So to make matters worse, there was also a tropical storm making its way up these coasts from the southern states. It was going to make driving conditions difficult. It kind of felt like it was like all conversing at once. So they were like, you know what, why don't we just start the five hour drive back to New Hampshire? Like, you know, we're still together. We're still making the trip together. So even though they had heard that storm warning, they

said that the skies were very clear and that they were by all weather accounts by the time that Betty and Barney passed over the border into the mountains of Northern New Hampshire. So they were driving south along I-93 in Ashland when Betty saw what she thought was a shooting star, and she pointed it out to Barney. But as they got closer, it occurred to both Betty and Barney that whatever it was in the sky, it had stopped moving. Ooh, it was just hovering in the air. The thing which was large and they both said was cigar shaped, okay. Seeming at the time.

It began to move forward slowly and then it began going upwards like a sending again. And this is when Betty was like, Barney, pull over on the side of the road, we need to get a better look at this. Like what the fuck is that? So outside of the car, they looked up get a better look at this. Like, what the fuck is that? So outside of the car, they looked up at this wild thing above them.

Yeah. They were super confused, not really understanding what the hell was up there. And they were also wondering, how is this thing just hovering motionless in the air like that? Yeah, like gravity doesn't necessarily work like that. And they couldn't hear anything. Like propellers, like a helicopter.

That's creepy. So Betty gave Barney the binoculars they had brought with them on the trip. And Betty later recalled, and as he looked up, he could see a row of men standing in the windows looking down at them. I'm looking at the pictures right now. Yeah. Like that they drew and I'm like, uh, what? Uh, what? So one by one, apparently, the figure's watching through the window walked away, and then the ship began descending in their direction. So they had no idea what to do. So they both jumped back in the car

and headed south on Route 3, and the object is following them now. Oh. And they said it was moving in a very erratic pattern above them. Yeah. And I was so Barney really didn't want to freak Betty out. So he was trying to act like everything was fine.

And he said he was trying to be as calm as possible and just drive home. Yeah. And his only reason was he didn't want to upset Betty. So at one point Barney entertained the idea of stopping at a cabin or a motor lodge maybe, just to be near other people, because he was like, we were just freaked out.

But he was like, honestly, I think we should just keep going. So they drove for about a half hour and then they rounded a curve near Indian head which is a natural rock formation and actually a landmark in Franconia notch. And they came to this like large open area and as soon as they came into this area, they saw the flying object hovering

about 100 feet up in the area right in front of their car. Oh. And so Barney was startled by this and he said he slammed his foot on the brake because he wasn't ready for it. And it was in the middle of the road that they came to a stop. And he said he grabbed Betty's revolver and binoculars

and got out of the car and moved closer to see what the fuck this thing was. Oh, this is terrifying. And he said he approached and the thing tilted forward slightly and two red lights began to glow as fins on the side of the object began to part and the object started moving slowly forward. Oh, fuck.

So he was fucking terrified and he rushed back into the car and told Betty, we got to get the fuck out of here. Yeah, like goodbye. Now they raced down the highway. The object is literally above them still pursuing them essentially. Right. And after a few minutes, Betty and Barney could hear a buzzing sound. And then they felt a strong vibration. And a few minutes later, they heard the buzzing again louder now, followed by a much stronger vibration. And a few minutes later they heard the buzzing again louder now, followed by a much stronger vibration. And this is when they said there was haziness, like this part is kind of mist time, because they later said that they would, they were called encountering

some kind of roadblock and seeing a large red orb on the ground, but they couldn't, like, the details were really fuzzy. They were like, I can't, I don't, I can't put these pieces together. Right. So the next thing they really remember was feeling this desperate need to be around other people. They just didn't want to be alone. Oh. And so Barney drove for a while, searching for a restaurant, that would be open, something that other people would be around, but they couldn't find anything open at that time.

So they're like, let's just get home. So based on when they left Montreal and how long they'd been driving, they expected to reach Port Smith around 3 a.m. But when they did reach home, they were surprised because the sun was coming up. What? And Betty wrote in her diary,

we entered our home, turned on the lights, and went over to the window and looked skyward. We felt very calm, peaceful, relaxed. We sat at the kitchen table, looked at each other, shook our heads and puzzled, and asked each other, do you believe what happened? We agreed it was unbelievable, but it had really happened. So they're exhausted, yeah.

Confused. They're like, what happened to this chunk of time? And Benny and Barty decided, you know, let's get some sleep. Let's have a little nap, like sleep it off, see how we feel in the morning. When we wake up in a few hours, sure. And when they woke up a few hours later, Barney said, you know what, this is still bothering both of us. So he said, why don't you go into another room?

I'll sit here and we're going to draw what we saw. Okay. So they did that. And they drew what they saw. And when they reconvened a few minutes later, they saw that it was remarkably similar with the adrons. So they they took that as okay, we both saw this like this wasn't a hallucination. We saw it. Now as far as Barney was concerned, though, even through this, he was like, this story, even though I believe we saw it, is beyond belief. And he was like, for our jobs and for our reputation in the community, we should just keep this to ourselves. I get that. And just have this experience with each other, especially that time period.

You don't want to like go stern with. No. And of course, Betty, who was never wanted to give in any public pressure, very much disagreed with this. But she was like, this was incredible. We can't just keep this to ourselves. But she was like, you know what? I respect and understand your concern.

And so she was like, you know what, I'm not going to run wilds, but can I tell my sister? Yeah. And she was like, of course, you can. The other thing is technically, he's like a government employee. So he's probably like, I'm not about to talk about this shit. And he was, they were both very active in the civil rights community

and the activism. And they didn't want this to overshadow or take away from any of the work they were doing. So they were worried about that, which is really sad. It is really sad. So she called her sister Janet and who she called the only person who she could tell her story to without prejudice. All Janet listened and she was like, wow, this is wild, but I believe you.

And then she was like, okay, I'll call you back. So after hearing her sister's story, Janet Miller phoned her neighbor who's a physicist and asked for advice about like anything he could tell him, you know, but physicists, that seems like a right person to talk to. He's like, I don't know, you're really smart. Yeah. And coincidentally, the neighbor had guests over that night, and one of them was the former chief of police from the nearby town of Newton. Okay. He said, no, this isn't crazy. Like, don't worry. And he said, all UFO sightings should be reported to the peace air force base. Like, that's what we do. So like, tell her to report it. Okay.

So Janet thanked him, hung up, told Betty, you know, this is what you need to do. And also gave her a basic experiment that the physicist had suggested that she try. Okay. Now, according to the physicist, Betty was to take a compass out to the car and walk slowly around the vehicle

and just make note of any unusual changes in the compass as she walked. Now, Barney was like, I'm not doing that. He was like, I'm done with this. He was like, I want this behind us. I don't even want to do this. So he were a few, few to go outside. So Betty did it by herself. And she said nothing unusual happened. She walked around the car and then she said, and then she reached the trunk. And she said, she noticed a bunch of unusual shiny spots on the surface. And she said about a size of a half dollar or silver dollar. Pretty big. And she said she'd never seen them before. So she placed the compass on the spots and it would spin wildly. And she said, as I was watching this, I was filled with an unexplained feeling of absolute terror. I was standing there in the rain under the street light

and telling myself, don't scream, keep calm and don't be afraid. Everything is all right. I hope he's scared too. So a few days later, Betty did as her sister suggested as well and called the peace air force base to report the whole experience. A party's probably like you better stop it.

A party's like, Jesus. So they gave a basic description of what they'd seen, but he insisted they leave out the part about seeing the humanoid figures looking at them out the window because he was like, I don't want to sound. He was like, very ashamed of this. And it was very sad. So a few hours later, they got a call back.

OK. From Major Paul Henderson, who had several follow-up questions, and later Betty and Barney would learn that Henderson had taken detailed notes and submitted their description to Project Blue Book, which is a study of unidentified flying objects conducted by the US Air Force between 1952 and 1969. So major Henderson's report to Project Blue Book is basically what we described. It's almost exactly that. It includes, but it also included a comment that provides

a little more insight into after the trip. In the report, he notes, during a later conversation with Mr. Hill, he volunteered the observation that he did not originally intend to report the incident. He says that on looking back, he feels that the whole thing is incredible and he feels somewhat foolish. He just cannot believe that such a thing could or did happen. So in 1961, Barney Hill was the local chairman of the NAACP

and a strong proud civil rights activist who was working tirelessly to advance the cause of equality in the community. And in a community that wasn't very receptive to begin with, so he was working fucking hard. Over time. And so he was also the founding board member of the Rockingham Community Action Program, which is an organization that provides social and financial support to those in need.

Wow. And one that is still a vital part of the Social Service Network on the Seacoast today. Sure. And he's also a black man from the South who was married to a white woman in a state where many residents were not going to accept or, you know, were actively speaking out against interracial marriage. Right. So because of all that, to Barney, the UFO incident was, it was distracting from all his work

he was doing. And he said it was embarrassing. And he was worried that any tabloid kind of publicity that came along with it would tarnish the battle that both of them were fighting for equality and dignity. So as far as he was concerned, they'd done their duty, they reported the sighting to the proper authorities and now he was like, we're moving on. Right. Now Betty on the other hand was, she wasn't like forcefully doing anything, but she just was having trouble letting the experience go, which I can understand that side of it too.

Yeah. How could you not have trouble with that? Exactly. So just days after reporting the incident, she went to the library and started checking out books about aliens and UFOs. And she just wanted to hear other similar experiences. Just to, I think she was also just trying to convince herself.

I didn't have a lab hallucination. Yeah. So her motivation was definitely just like, I think she was also just trying to convince herself. I didn't have a lab hallucination. So her motivation was definitely just like, you know, Betty was a stubborn gal. Strong, strong will. Yeah, she was strong willed. But also, strange things have been, had been happening since this whole situation that she didn't know what to do about even aside from those like half dollar things. Yeah, so about 10 days after coming home, Betty started having nightmares about the experience. She didn't know what to do about even aside from those like half dollar things. Yeah.

So about 10 days after coming home, Betty started having nightmares about the experience. And she would also have these really scary early morning flashbacks. And these flashbacks were really scary experiences from that evening, but ones she didn't initially remember. Okay. So they were like, she wasn't certain if they were real, if they were a dream, what was happening, but they were very vivid flashbacks.

And she said at first, I didn't tell anyone about them. They were so weird. Oh. So from her reading, all the library books, Betty eventually came across a report written by Donald Keo, which was, he was a former major with the US Marines and was the director of the National Investigations Committee on Aerial Phenomena, which is NICAP.

This is a civilian group dedicated to investigating reports of UFOs. Okay. In October 1961, Betty wrote a letter to NICAP, told them about the experience and was just like, I just want to let you guys know about this. If you can just take a look into things, see if it's similar to something else. Yeah.

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Listen everywhere on October 23rd, or you can binge early and at free on Wondery Plus the same day. Now a few weeks later, Web did come in contact with the Hills and recorded their story for NICAP in a report titled, A Dramatic UFO Encounter in the White Mountains of New Hampshire. Now, the description of the experience in Web's report is again the same one that was given to Project Blue Book, but this time, Barney allowed them to include the part about seeing the humanoid creatures in the window. But it was really the missing time that was the thing that was really bothering the hills

like that time period. It was like, this is all weird, yes. But we're more concerned what the fuck happened in this time period that neither one of us can remember. Right. And it was Webb's report that brought Betty and Barney's story to the attention of Robert Holman, who was a former interrogator for the US Army, who was now working for IBM in the 1960s.

Holman was really interested as well in that missing time element of their story. And as a former interrogator, he knew there were plenty of ways of recovering memories or forgotten details that could be useful. They've had to do it. But contrary to apparently popular belief about this, it wasn't Holman who eventually suggested hypnosis as a way of figuring this out. It was actually his friend and fellow nightcap member Jim McDonald's. He suggested that. Jim McDonald's was a former member

of the US military in the CIA. Shit. He met the hills through Holman. And in the later half of 1961, he became very interested and very involved in filling in those gaps of missing time for them. He would go back to the scene of the encounter, like they really went for this.

So these efforts eventually led them to a hypnosis session. And this is when the details were uncovered. So throughout 1962 and 1963, Betty and too much less Earth's than Bernie dove way deeper into the investigation into their experience. They were very encouraged by the members of NIKAP and former military members who had taken intense interest in this. So they were still, you know, Barney was

still very conscious about how this could make them look if the story really caught out. So he was a little reluctant to spend time diving into the investigation, but he tried to help whenever he could. And unfortunately, about a year after the initial experience, Barney's health took a turn. Oh, no. And he started experiencing debilitating headaches and nausea, and what's worse is his primary care doctors couldn't figure out why.

Radiation. So believing the cause of Barney's symptoms was probably largely psychological. His doctor referred him to Dr. Benjamin Simon, who was a very well-known, renowned and celebrated neuropsychiatrist, and had a practice in Boston's back bay neighborhood. So according to Betty's niece, Catherine Marden, Dr. Simon quote, was skeptical about the existence of UFOs as extraterrestrial aircraft. But he agreed to work with Barney because he was worried

and he truly believed that this problem was psychological in nature. Oh, no. So when Barney and Betty actually went to Boston for his initial consult with Dr. Simon in December 1963, they both told the story together and it was so elaborate and they were so insistent on it that Dr. Simon was like, I'm gonna insist that you also receive treatment

when they, to Betty. Okay. And she was like, you know what, I want to help Barney get better. So I'll do it. So sure. Like I'll absolutely go through this. Okay.

So he was one of those countries leading neuropsychiatrist at the time. So he made a name for himself with a lot of things, but one of the things he made a name for himself with was incorporating hypnosis into his treatment plans. Well, that's cool. But he was quick to let the hills know,

you may have seen stage hypnosis or like on late night shows or on, you know, these little things, but this is very different. And he said he had actually pioneered the use of hypnosis to treat PTSD and soldiers returning from World War II. Oh, shit. So to Simon, he said, Barney symptoms, bear to striking resemblance

to the trauma-related symptoms of soldiers, which led him to believe that this could be beneficial for both of them. Now, beginning in late February 1964, they began a three-week period of very intense hypnosis sessions to try to uncover these memories. So for the first session, Dr. Simon was very pleased, he said, because it seemed like Betty and Barney

were excellent subjects for this. He said they had a great ability to fall into a deep, translate state pretty quickly and easily. And he put them in different sound proof rooms so that they couldn't influence each other. Of course. And in the earliest sessions, both Betty and Barney described the drive from Niagara or to Niagara

of looking for a motel of Barney's apprehension because he was very uncertain of the civil rights situation in Canada, so he was a little nervous. OK. And in the second session, Simon moved forward in time, and started asking about their experiences while in Niagara Falls. And it was during the second session

that Betty and Barney's descriptions of events kind of differed a little bit. With Betty stated they got lost after asking for directions and Barney stated that he misread the map. Okay. In significant difference in the grand scheme of things. Yeah, I don't think that's like a big thing. So through the first few sessions with Dr. Simon, it was clear that Betty and Barney's accounts

of the trip differed in a lot of very insignificant ways. This is kind of hinting at the unreliability of hypnosis because emotions factor into our perception and memories. Of course, yeah. Everybody perceives things differently. And this is what's interesting because they definitely had different priorities and different focuses on this trip.

And I think it really colored their experience because in the transcripts of Barney's hypnosis sessions, it's clear that the trip to Canada or anywhere at that time was really stressful because in the transcripts of Barney's hypnosis sessions, it's clear that the trip to Canada or anywhere at that time was really stressful for him and dominated by anxiety and concerns over how them as an interracial couple would be received in unfamiliar parts of the USA and Canada.

I hate that he had to even go through that while he was on his honeymoon. Yeah, that was his main concern for that anybody has to go through that. And in Betty's accounts, hers are focused on the logistics of travel and the anxieties about reaching their destination. Right. So, I don't believe their inconsistencies and discrepancies are like deceit on any of

those. They're very insignificant, not like the deceit wouldn't make sense. And it's not the details of like the, the outfit it's or whatever. I think it's just that there's obvious differences in their priorities and fears and worries. And it makes sense. And it comes out during hypnosis.

Right. Which is interesting. Yeah. Now by late March, Dr. Simon had done a ton of sessions to establish a baseline. Okay. And he was finally ready to go into the experience. So Betty and Barney, at first both described the scenario the exact same way that they did

to the authorities at Peace Air Force Base in ICAP. And still under hypnosis. Still under hypnosis. And like interesting. And Barney said while the craft was falling down the highway, following them down the highway, he said, I began to feel very alarmed and hope for some traffic. So again, I wanted other people to be around.

Right. Now when he came to the part of the story where they had rounded Indian head, Barney became visibly distressed and he actually asked to be woken up. Oh. And Dr. Simon assured him, you're safe, you're in my office. Nothing's going to happen to you, like, please continue.

Right. And so Barney said in a very anxious tone, it's right over my head, God, what is it? And I try to maintain control, so Betty cannot tell I'm scared, God, I'm scared. Oh, that feels like heartbreak. Right. Now, clearly upset at this point,

he became screaming uncontrollably. Oh, my God. And then became hysterical and needed several minutes to compose himself before they went on. Holy shit, did he have to get woken up? And I think they composed him while asleep, but then he continued and he said this, this is the transcript. This is ridiculous. Oh, it's huge.

Oh my God, I can see it. It's there. And there are lights. Oh geez, I don't believe this. I don't believe this. I don't believe this. It's huge. Oh my God, I can see it. It's there. And there are lights. Oh, jeez, I don't believe this. I don't believe this. I don't believe this. It's huge. And there are people there and they're looking back at me. Oh my God, help me. If there is a God, help me coming closer. I'm coming closer. There's a man up there and he's not going to let me go away. Oh, oh, it's big 80 feet. Look at it. Oh, look at it. Two red lights. They're on the

side of it. It's like, it's like a pancake, it looks, I'm not gonna say it. I don't believe flying saucers are, I'm not gonna say it, I don't ever wanna say that word again. Like so strong. Even under hypnosis. I know, I'm like, oh my goodness. And he struggled to continue, but eventually composed himself enough

to describe the feeling of panic he felt when he said the humanoid creatures, when he saw those humanoid creatures. He said he saw one man who he believed to be the leader. He was round face and reminded him of a red-headed Irishman. He said was he was a not too big man dressed in a military-scat style cap and black shiny jacket with a scarf dangling over his left shoulder. Barney also said he noticed the man had almond-shaped eyes which he'd never seen before,

in that he conveyed a terrifying menace, the likes of which he had experienced, but he said only with some of the worst people he had ever encountered. Good use. And later he remarked, the man in black in the black shiny jacket reminded me of a Nazi. Oh wow. That's really scary. In the session that followed, he pre- Dr. Simon press Barney on what happened next. And he said that they tried to get away but encountered a roadblock that he'd previously described as a fiery red ball. So the transcript says, I made a turn and I never knew this. I don't know why I had to make that turn and I was lost.

I saw I was on a strange area of the highway that I had never been before and I was being stopped. I was very uncomfortable, but somehow the eyes of the men in the craft were telling me that I should be calm and I would not be harmed and to relax and I saw those men coming towards me. In her sessions, Betty's recollection was very similar, and to the dreams that she was having after they got home. So in her sessions, she described watching as the men emerged from the craft, took hold of Barney, and led almost carrying him into the craft,

and then came back to get her. And she said they had him under some kind of control and he couldn't get away. And she said when they returned for her, she remembered walking voluntarily to the ship with the men. She's like, my man isn't there. Yes, she was like, I'll go get him.

Right. So she said, I was more or less walking under my own power. And then she said, as we neared the door, she began fighting the men until they got a hold of her and marched her inside. Okay. She said they bruised me a little bit. I had torn my dress and the struggle.

It had a built-in lining and I was struggling so badly that the stitching on the inside of the dress had been torn out. So in places it was hanging down. Oh, wow. Now inside the ship, Betty described being taken to an examination room with Barney, which he described as being like to an examination room with Barney, which he described as being like a hospital operating room. And in Betty's recollection, she said her clothing were removed and they began examining her body.

She said, and this is going to get like, kind of graphic, just to let everybody know. Okay. I could feel them turning me over and putting something in my rectum. Oh, she said, I felt it going very easily. And then it was withdrawn. As they examined her body and collected specimens, she said, nothing hurt. She said she could hear them humming in a low tone. And she said she believed they were communicating to each other that way. It sounded like a conversation, but homes. Okay. And later Barney also described here seeing the men communicate with Hums. Okay. And he said, but he saw them open their mouth to make the noise.

She hadn't seen them when they were communicating like that. So like Betty, Barney also recalled being propped and prodded by the captors. And he said, I have the most peculiar feeling that something was placed against my genital parts. And he said, it was more as if my parts were in a solution of something that was there that had substance to it, that had body to it. So he claimed that the men took many samples from every orifice of his body, leaving him with the feeling of having been touched. So in the final exam, Betty says the men performed what she understood to be kind of a pregnancy test

by inserting a large needle into her naval. And she said, I would say the needle was four inches long, six inches maybe, and she said there was a tube attached to it, and they didn't leave it in very long, just a second. What? Now, once it was removed, she was left alone in the room with the man they believed to be the leader. Okay. And she started, she said, we had a conversation. So according to Betty, the leader gave her a book to read.

And she said the text went up and down. It was different. It had short lines and some were very thin and some were medium and some were heavy. They had some dots and they had some straight lines and curved lines. And she asked the leader where they had come from. And the man asked how much she knew about the universe. And then got up and directed her attention to a large map on the wall. And she said the map looked like what she assumed were stars or like the galaxy of some

sort, but she said very different from any star map I've ever seen. It doesn't look like what you are picturing, but she said something about it felt like that's what it was. Yeah. Context clues. And the leader asked Betty, where Betty thought she was on the map.

What? And she laughed and said, I have no idea. And he said, if you don't know where you are, there wouldn't be any point in telling you where I am. What? Which is like chilling. That's so, I wouldn't be any point in telling you where I am. What? Which is like chilling. That's so, I don't even understand. It feels like I could point to you where I'm from,

but if you don't know where you are right now, then what's the point? So crazy. And I was like, okay, okay, Mr. Depth. You look so real. Yeah, for real. Like, that was like philosophical. Okay, you look a little hipster.

I was like, I liked that. But according to Betty, she spoke with him for a little more time about various aspects of human life on Earth. Until finally, the conversation ended, and Betty and Barney were allowed to dress and were escorted back to their car by two men. And they regained what I guess could be described

as consciousness at that point, and we're just driving along Route 3 towards Port Smith. Weird. So the whole thing took like a couple hours, I guess? I guess like the time just like jumped. Yeah. So from the moment he began working with the hills, Dr. Simon was very clear that he had little, if any, interest in UFOs. Wow.

And was entirely motivated by his desire to just help Barney Hill relieve his stress symptoms. Yeah. So when he was asked questions later, like years later, about this whole experience, he was very reluctant to engage in anything that could treat UFOs as a serious subject. He was like, in the introduction to a book about the Hill's experience called the Interrupted Journey,

he wrote, the charisma of hypnosis has tended to foster the belief that hypnosis is the magical and loyal road to the truth. In one sense, this is so. But it must be understood that hypnosis is the pathway to the truth as it is felt and understood by the patient. The truth is what he believes to be the truth, and this may or not be consistent with the ultimate non-personal truth.

Okay. So when the hypnosis session was done, Betty and Barney continued their relationship with Dr. Simon through more traditional therapy as well. Over a year actually. Wow. They ended up being in correspondence for many years after. Like they kept in touch, they kept the relationship. Nice.

And I think Dr. Simon is like, listen, this is what was told. The transcripts are true. They both had genuine reactions. Their emotions about it were genuine. They were in different rooms when they told these stories. And they line up almost perfectly. And he said, and he's saying, they are not deceiving us. This could very well be the truth. Like the absolute non-personal truth of reality. Yeah. Or it could be that both of them truly believe that this happened

and that this is what they experienced in some way, shape or form, whether it be whatever, you know what I mean? This could be just their truth, but we will not know. Like all we know is that they both came out with these things under hypnosis

in separate rooms with very real emotions attached to them and no sign of deceit. That's crazy. Which is like, that's really all you can take out of that. And we're like, that's pretty incredible. It is. I think that's the perfect word for it. Incredible.

And honestly, this probably would have been the end of their experience with like the world of UFOs and alien abductions, like them going through the Sipnos' session. But an unexpected newspaper item in the Boston Traveler in the fall of 1965 took them out of the ordinary citizens who just went through this and dealt with it on their own kind of thing to like the biggest names in the UFO community. Yeah. So in November 1963, the way it happened is really shitty, too. I feel bad for them. They didn't seek this out.

I hate that. So Betty and Barney were invited by the two state UFO study group to present their story to the group's members at a private event in Quincy, Massachusetts. The group had found out about the hills through NICAP and had reached out to Betty. At the time when she was very desperate for answers,

so she was like, I'll participate to this private event. You're investigators, you're all just, like it's the same kind of thing as NICAP. Like this is private. It's private, they're just trying to understand this, they're not here for publicity. And what sucks is that she didn't know, and a lot of other people didn't know, that a reporter for the Boston traveler, John Latrell, was in the audience that night and recorded

the entire presentation. Isn't that illegal? It's a real shit move, and it gets shitier. Because you can't record people without their consent. I don't know what the situation is there. But two years later in the fall of 65, Latrell was writing an article about another reported UFO incident in Exeter New Hampshire, which is known as the Exeter Incident. And he reached out to the hills for comment on this, like talking about this other incident. And he said he wanted to include their story in the article to kind of beef it up.

And they still wanted to remain anonymous a little bit. They were like, we dealt with this on our own. We shared our story with the, you know, with the private groups so they could do their investigation to help them. But we're not looking to be in newspapers and shit. So they declined to speak with them. They were like, no, we would like,

and they said the only thing we will ask is do not include us in the article at all. Fair. We don't want our incident in there. We don't want any of it. So, um, so yeah, it's, so, and Betty said, I do not know, this is what she had said, I do not know what effect publicity would have on Barney's position in so many of the things he is doing. That's what she had said to him. Yeah. I don't want publicity because it's going to ruin what he's done for the community of the things he is doing. That's what she has said to him. I don't want publicity because it's gonna ruin what he's done for the community. And that's been his number one thing throughout this whole process.

This was a wash or deal. Being a slimy fuck and ignoring the Hill's request to remain anonymous, which was very black and white. Like literally told him, do not include us in that. He still did. Lettrell published the article in the Boston Traveler on October 25th, 1965,

and he frequently referenced the Hill's experience, and quoted heavily from Betty's presentation at the conference in Quincy. How did he get away with that? Not only that, it also very much trivialized and sensationalized their story for like his own game. Yeah. And it also caused them to seriously question who the fuck they could trust anymore. They were like, what the fuck? We told you not to include us.

So, because aside from that presentation in 1963 to the private group and talking to the government agents they talked about with it, Betty had only told her sister and maybe like one or two close friends about it. Right. It was private. So the fact that he was doing this felt like a betrayal on like a massive front. What an asshole. So the article in the Boston traveler prompted a ton of calls from reporters all around New England, all wanting comments and interviews. And Betty recalled, I took the newspaper

and locked myself in the bathroom. I was stunned, unbelieving. I noted it was going to be a series to run for five days. Oh, no. Now the next day, when she went to work, Betty, to work at the New Hampshire Division of Welfare, she was met at the door by flurry of reporters, all trying to get a comment.

And later when Betty and Barney arrived home after work, the phone was ringing off the hook. And they just wanted to go home with their lives. Yeah, they did their due diligence. They did everything they were asked to do. Right. They didn't seek this. And the days after that, they were approached by strangers everywhere they went, asking questions. Some people wanted autographs. Oh, that's so some people wanted autographs. Oh, that's so weird.

And it sucks, it's so sad. And it's like all of this, they had no way of knowing that doing that private speech just to people who they were trying to help, and knocking in any publicity that it was going to have the potential to compromise their jobs, and undermine all the civil rights work

that Barney and Betty had done up until this point. So seeing no other option at this moment, Betty and Barney were like, all right, we gotta try to get in front of this now. It's out, right. So now we gotta take control of it. So they said, LaTrell's article included their story,

but also quoted them without their permission. So that was a series of misrepresentation. They had no way of controlling that. And it misrepresented their experience, and it misrepresented them as people. So they were like, you know what, we'll go out and we'll tell the story. And we'll be like, because now we have to. We have to now. So on the evening of November 30th, 1965, they held their own event at the Garrison Inn in Dover, New Hampshire, which was only a few miles from their home in Portsmouth. And they talked to a crowd of more than 600 people who attended. Oh my God. And we're probably so nervous.

Yeah. And Betty opened up the program by giving a brief overview of the history of UFO sightings. I love her. She said, up until the 19th century, there have been over 300 scientific recordings of UFOs, and this rate has continued up until the present time. And as evidence, Betty shared stories of sailors and other respectable citizens who reported the sightings, including the recent sighting and exeter

that had started this holding. So with theings, including the recent sighting and exeter that had started this whole thing. So with the introduction, after the introduction, Betty and Barney began the presentation part and they told their entire version of the events. Barney said, I thought it was probably a helicopter, but I heard no familiar worrying of the propellers. I then became quite apprehensive, got back into the car and continued driving southward. He finished telling the story, and then the audience just went nuts asking questions,

wanting to know whether they appeared threatening, hostile, like very normal questions. Sure. And they, you know, they answered they did not feel like at first they were scared, but they didn't come off as hostile or threatening, and they didn't hurt them. And the audience was like, did you suffer any ill effects from this? Like, were you hurt? Did you, you know, and Barney said, no, we feel pretty fine

and we both felt like we had just been in contact with something and they said, alien. It's a very, very hard feeling to describe. So, for Betty and Barney, so that worked out well because people were asking genuine questions and respected the story. So for Betty and Barney who were very anxious telling their story publicly, the overwhelmingly positive response from the audience was definitely validation for their

experience. They deserved that. And this did begin a lifelong involvement in the pursuit of evidence of UFOs and extra terrestrial, terrestrial, it's really hard to say. In the years that followed, their experience became, you know, a popular book, the interrupted journey, which was adapted into a television film, the UFO incident, starring James Earl Jones in a style parsons as Betty and Barney. Love. There were books, movies, lots of media that followed all that craziness. Now, unfortunately, on February 25th, 1969, Barney Hill died unexpectedly from a cerebral hemorrhage.

Oh my God. He was only 46 years old. Oh my God. He only got that much time together. That's awful. And what's even worse is despite everything he had done in his life for the civil rights movement, his community, his obituary, and the Portsmouth heralds focused almost entirely on the UFO incident.

That's really shitty. The opening paragraph describes his as a Portsmouth Postman who maintained he and his wife were taken captive aboard a UFO in the White Mountains. It's like, okay, he did like a gazillion other wonderful things for his immunity. Yeah, that's so shitty. Now, he died only a year after Betty's father died. Oh, God, Betty. And a few months after their beloved Dachon Delcy died. No.

So she was devastated. It took months before she could Dachon Delcy died. No. So she was devastated. It took months before she could even, you know, function. Yeah. But her lifelong friend, Marianne Franklin from college, she said she always suspected that Betty never stopped grieving for her soulmate. Like, just ruined my heart out. Ruin me. They were soul out. They ruined me. They were so many.

Absolutely were. Now, in the years after Barney died, Betty threw herself into the world of UFO stuff. You know, speaking at conferences, she gave interviews, she would, she investigated, she was like, I'm gonna find answers. Yeah, well, you probably spend the rest of your life wondering what the fuck happened to me.

But she also maintained her full-time job as a social worker for the New Hampshire Department of welfare. Wow. And by the late 1990s, at that point, she was like, you know, and I'll just fade into the background and the UFO stuff. Like, I'm gonna gracefully bow out and just let someone else take that over. Yeah. And she was just kind of done with the attention at that point. And so she said, you know what? She said, I'm no longer really questioned, I've consumed with questions about the universe. So I feel like very content peaceful. And so she was like, I decided to transfer into a new hobby, which is family genealogy. Very cool.

And she said she was just really interested that some of her ancestors met the pilgrims. Now on October 17th, 2004, Betty Hill died from lung cancer in the Portsmouth home she lived in since the 1950s. The one that she bought for a dollar back. A dollar back. Yeah. She was 85 years old. Hell yeah.

And although Betty and Bernie Hill will definitely be remembered by most for this fantastic tale that occurred in September 1961. It is very important to remember them as also hugely important in their civil rights movements in their community and equality. Of course. Like, they committed their entire lives for helping to that. Like that should be also right up there with this wild incident that happened.

Perhaps above it one might say exactly. So that is the story of Betty and Barney Hill. What a wild story. I believe them. I believe them. I believe them. Yeah. I believe something happened.

That shit is so scary. It'll be interesting to see what you guys believe. And just be nice about it. Especially now, so much more shit is coming out about. Yeah, aliens. And if you don't believe it, that's fine. Just don't, don't, don't be mean to people who do or people who are interested in it.

Yeah, exactly. There's plenty of things that people are interested in that you're not and vice versa. Sometimes the internet can make it like if you believe certain things and you're a piece of dog shit and I'm gonna shit all over you for it. Don't do that, don't be that person on the internet.

Don't be that guy. Have important discussions about it, because this is interesting. It is interesting. I agree. And Betty and Barney Hill for life, I love their love. Yeah, wow. So, yeah.

Well, with that, we hope you keep listening, and we hope you keep it weird. It's weird that you get abducted by aliens. So weird. So weird. So weird. So weird. So weird. So weird.

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So weird. So weird. So weird. So weird. So weird. So weird. So weird. So weird. So weird. So weird. So weird. So weird. So weird. So weird. So weird. So weird. So weird. So weird. So weird. So weird. So weird. So weird. So weird. So weird. So weird. So weird. So weird. So weird. So weird. So weird. So weird. So weird. So weird. So weird. So weird. So weird. So weird. So weird. So weird. So weird. So weird. So weird. So weird. So weird. So weird. So weird. So weird. So weird. So weird. So weird. So weird. So weird. So weird. So weird. So weird. So weird. So weird. So weird. So weird. So weird. So weird. So weird. So weird. So weird. So weird. So weird. So weird. So weird. So weird. So weird I'm going to go back to the place where I'm going to go. I'm going to go back to the place where I'm going to go. I'm going to go back to the place where I'm going to go. I'm going to go back to the place where I'm going to go. I'm going to go back to the place where I'm going to go. I'm going to go back to the place where I'm going to go.

I'm going to go back to the place where I'm going to go. I'm going to go back to the place where I'm going to go. I'm going to go back to the place where I'm going to go. I'm going to go back to the place where I'm going to go. I'm going to go back to the place where I'm going to go. I'm going to go back to the place where I'm going to go. I'm going to go back to the place where I'm going to go. I'm going to go back to the place where I'm going to go.

I'm going to go back to the place where I'm going to go. I'm going to go back to the place where I'm going to go. I'm going to go back to the place where I'm going to go. I'm going to go back to the place where I'm going to go. I'm going to go back to the place where I'm going to go. I'm going to go back to the place where I'm going to go. I'm going to go back to the place where I'm going to go. I'm going to go back to the place where I'm going to go. I'm going to go back to the place where I'm going to go. I'm going to go back to the place where I'm going to go. Hey, Prime Members! You can listen to Morvid, Early, and Add Free on Amazon Music.

Download the Amazon Music app today, or you can listen Add Free with Wondery Plus and Apple Podcasts. Before you go, tell us about yourself by completing a short survey at Wondery.com slash survey. us an Apple podcast. Before you go, tell us about yourself by completing a short survey at Wondery.com slash survey.