Morbid - Episode 505: Leonarda Cianciulli: The Soap-Maker of Correggio

Episode Date: October 23, 2023

Having lost several children to childhood illnesses, Leonarda Cianciulli was very protective of her surviving children and was willing to do anything to protect them. So, when the deeply superstitious Leonarda was warned by a fortune teller that all her children would die at a young age, the forty-six-year-old shopkeeper determined that the best way to keep her son alive was to offer human sacrifices in exchange for Giuseppe’s safety. Ove the course of a year, Leonarda murdered three local women and disposed of their bodies with caustic chemicals, using any remaining biological evidence in the creation of soaps, candles, cookies, and cakes, which she shared with others in her community.Thank you to the lovely David White, of Bring Me the Axe podcast, for research assistance :)ReferencesBaltimore Sun. 1946. "Rendered her friends to wax, she says." Baltimore Sun, April 28: 3.Eddy, Cheryl. 2015. The Superstitious Murderer Who Turned Her Victims Into Cake And Soap. June 23. https://gizmodo.com/the-superstitious-murderer-who-turned-her-victims-into-1713486930.Green, Ryan. 2019. The Curse: A Shocking True Story of Superstition, Human Sacrifice and Cannibalism. Unknown: Independent.Museo Criminologico. 2006. The Correggio soap-maker. September 12. http://www.museocriminologico.it/correggio_uk.htm.Ortiz, Genoveva. 2022. The Deadly Soap-Maker of Correggio: The True Story of Leonarda Cianciulli. unknown: True Crime Seven.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

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where you can listen to even the royals exclusively and add free right now. Hey, weirdo's, I'm Alena. I'm Ash. And this is morbid. Yeah, girl. We're gonna get real morbid today, my friends. Yeah, Alina is back and better than ever. Not that you never really went anywhere, but thank you. But you know, this is a little far away from the spooky season,

silliness of it all. Oh, I wouldn't say. Because, you know, like spooky season, we got, you know, we like to go a little more haunted, a little more loose goosey with it. But then we know that you guys, like, you know, like a, you know, you know, you know, you want to hear the real stuff too,

and I'm going to get very real on you today. Oh God. We're going to be talking about the story of Leonardo Chan Chouli, who is also referred to as the soap maker of Corregio. I don't know how I personally feel about that. Yes. And whatever your first thoughts were when I said that. Yep. Yep, correct. Also, I'd like to just give a quick little trigger warning here.

She has a very tragic story as does her mother. So, like, there's some sexual assault in here. There's some trauma. The whole beginning is pretty rough. There's also going to be some talk of pregnancy loss. Okay. And you know, that kind of thing. So just if that's not really your bag, then I think you can skip a little ways through and we'll get through all that and then you can get into even more horrible things. Okay. But yeah, this is going to be a rough one. So just everybody sit tight.

So Leonardo Chanculi, her story begins tragically with her mom's story, to be honest. Her mother, Amelia Denolfi, she was born in Montella, Avalino, which is a small village in the south of Italy. Okay. Amelia grew up as the teenage daughter of one of the wealthier village in the south of Italy. Oh, okay. Amelia grew up as the teenage daughter of one of the wealthier families in the region. She grew up very well off. She had everything she needed,

very easy life relatively at the time. She grew up to be an attractive girl. She was kind, she was well-liked by her neighbors and her friends, like really just kind of had it all grown up. Yeah. And in the summer of 1893, as Amelia was coming into adulthood in that time, we're in the late 1800s.

So of course, they immediately were like, gotta find her a suitor. Let's marry you off. And of course, at that time, there was no shortage of suitors lining up for her. She again, came from a wealthy family, high social status. So there was an understanding in that time

that she was only really going to be entertaining dates in courting from men of similar class and status. Like legit suitors. Yeah, so this kept certain men out of the running, certain men like Mariano Chen Chouli. Unlike Amelia, Mariano was older, middle-aged. He was very impoverished at the time, and he was known around the village for his cruel, nasty, pig-ish nature.

Fantastic. I did notice his last name, though, and I'm nervous now. But he really liked Amelia. I don't like that. They had never met. He just liked to. But he just knew her by sight and by reputation. That year, Mariano developed pretty much an obsession with her.

Like, he kind of stalked her. And again, they had a very large age gap. He was middle age. She was just coming into adulthood, which means like 17-8. I was gonna say, right? Yeah. And he knew very well that he had no chance in this whole courting of her.

Because he's impoverished. He was impoverished, he was older, he was just totally out of everything. But he took this as an opportunity to let his true, pigish nature out because Ryan Green, the author of the curse, a shocking true story of superstition, human sacrifice and cannibalism. Oh.

Little, little spoiler there. Okay. Quote, he wanted to tear her down from her pedestal to make her no better than him. He wanted to ruin her. Oh God. That's dark. So one summer evening, Mariana, Mariano, remember,

he's like stalking her. He's obsessed with her. He followed Amelia to a party she was attending with one of her suitors, and he waited outside this estate that she was in. He just lurked in the shadows. He drank and drank and drank. Oh, no. And after several hours, she came out of this huge estate. She said goodbye to her hosts, and apparently she started down the path alone, which I was kind of shocked to read that her

suitor was not bringing her home. Yeah, but he was not. And she started down the path. I think it was pretty close by her hosts. I don't know if that had anything to do with it. She was being followed and she had no idea. Right. At first, Amelia thought she was being robbed, and she told whoever was attacking her that she had no money on her, but then she quickly realized it wasn't money that he was looking for. And he ended up brutally raping her outside in the dark. And it's horrific. Yeah. When he was done with the assault, he just got up and walked away. What? Leaving her completely confused, terrified, and alone in a muddy field. In the dark, in the middle of the day. In the dark, nowhere. And she had seen him.

And she knew she had seen him around the village. Like, she knew once she saw him, she realized who it was. She knew of him, everything. And she just laid there for hours before she got up and made her way home. Now Amelia, at the time time had a Catholic upbringing and again, high social status Catholic girl in the 1800s. She comes with a lot of stuff. At the time she knew nothing of sex other than that it was what two people did after they were married and even then you did it to procreate. That was it. Yeah. So she had no context for what it even just happened. Like this was just so,

this was so traumatic. It's traumatic anyways. And then there was all this confusion along with it. Right. That's the thing because when that happens, like people have something to call it, I can't imagine. Oh, yeah. I can't even. That happening. And you don't even really know what this is. But you can feel inside of you that that's wrong. Yeah. And she also, because of this whole upbringing, she had come to believe that she committed a terrible sin. Oh, God. This was her fault. She did it. And then they were, she felt it every time she had to walk around in the market or anywhere else in the village and see him. Because she didn't say anything at first, because she was feeling so much shame and so scared and confused. So her feelings of shame only became heightened when she realized that she was pregnant as a result of the rape.

Oh, God. While she managed to keep everything for a time being quiet, after three or four months of pregnancy, it was pretty obvious. Starting to her parents confronted her. Oh. They didn't respond how loving parents should respond. Instead, they immediately, quote, threatened to go house to house

visiting all of her suitors until they found the one who defiled her. Oh, God. So she was terrified because who wants to do that? That's pure humiliation. And now you're just having that shame that she's feeling spread around the entire town.

So she came forward and said, I know who did this. Right. And this is how it happened. So in response, her parents had Mariano brought to the house and they confronted him. And as far as Amelia's parents were concerned, there was one option here.

Marriage. He was gonna marry that daughter. Dude, that is... It's so fucked, fucked, as in even the worst. My brain can't even wrap around this in what's worse, as Mariano was pleased. Of course. That's what he wanted. Because now he can do that forever.

And look. Legally weirdly. Look what he did, he took what he wanted. That's what he's thinking, wow. I mean, rewarded. I was out of the running, and here I took it into my own hands and look, I'm getting rewarded for it. Oh, that's so heinous.

Like what a fucked up way to, like the layers of fucked up here. Wow. And her parents immediately made arrangements for a priest to be brought to the house. They were married in a secret ceremony. Oh. And at this point, Amelia and Mariano had never spoken a word to each other.

Of course not. Until he raped her in the dark. And now they're getting forced to get married. And she's having his dreams. And she's going to move into his home, I'm assuming? Yeah, because after that wedding, she was sent to live in what he basically had a shack in like the worst part of the village. And her parents just sent her there or they wanted nothing to do

with her after this. Oh my God. Yep. And according to Green, who I mentioned, who wrote that book that we will link in the show notes. Right. The home was completely unfurnished and quote, the bathroom was outside and shared with the others on the row of houses. So she, this is completely different.

She went just like turn your lifestyle on a tent. Talk about, so she's this confident, happy, loving, well-known of the community, well-liked, wealthy, you know, of privilege and is walking around being courted by these men of similar status. And then she goes through the most traumatizing thing you can imagine, and her parents forced her to be just indebted into this. Wow.

And have it all taken away. Because if she did nothing to have this happened. No, of course not. And now she's being punished. And he's being rewarded. It's so wild. I have this picture of him and in my mind is this like vile character. Have you ever seen ever after?

Yes. You know, when she gets sent to live with that fucking nasty guy, this is probably going to cut him open. That's what I'm picturing him as. And what's worse is he had no job and he had no prospects of work. And instead he just ordered Amelia around at work, physically abused her, verbally abused her, whenever she'd, and also continued forcing himself on her. This is such a nightmare.

This is beyond nightmare. It's tragic. True. In every way it could be tragic. Now, remember, she's pregnant. Right. Leonardo Chenchuli was born April 18th, 1894, and she was born after a long, very painful,

very traumatic birth. That took a very large toll on Amelia. She lost consciousness on more than one occasion during the birth, like it was bad. Now, from the moment that Leonardo was born, she was very unwanted. Amelia was still dealing with, she's a young girl, and she's dealing with the aftermath of the trauma of sexual assault, and still is being raped and beat by this man. And dealing with torture, shock. And so she could not, she could not connect,

and she didn't want to connect. She just ignored, basically neglected her, didn't want anything to do with her. Oh, that's so sad. Which is awful. The whole thing is awful. And it only got worse as Leonardo got older, because again, her mother would ignore her completely, Amelia.

But it was honestly preferable to the times that she paid attention to her, because later Leonardo would say that she was frequently physically and verbally abused by her mother. So she just took out all of her anger all of the other child, which is horrific. Yeah. And her and Amelia would criticize her all the time.

Anything Leonardo did was criticized. And that took a big toll on her later. Oh, yeah. Because she would criticize and brutalize her for the smallest mistake. She was probably taking out all of her anger just on that one child. Her anger, her parents, her anger at Mariano, at this guy, her anger at everything around her.

She was taking it out on this poor innocent child. And she did not ask to be here. She's probably not even seeing like this child as her child. She's seeing it as his child. And the product of what happened exactly. And it's like there's so many layers of psychological trauma here. Yeah. And the physical and emotional abuse that she suffered at the hands of her mother

led to years of, I mean, loneliness, isolation, she had horrible self-esteem. And by the time she reached 13 and this is trigger warning for suicide and suicide off- Adoptance. She attempted to kill herself at home. Wow. And she was found and stopped. But instead of looking at this and expressing sympathy or trying to empathize with her or anything,

Amelia told her daughter that she was disappointed that she didn't succeed. Oh, my God. Which is literally unthinkable. That is, that's inexcusable. Unthinkable. Unthinkable. I'm reading that my brain

like wouldn't even take in the words. Wow. And a few years later, she actually attempted again. And this time she attempted by swallowing glass. Oh, God Jesus. Jesus was stopped again. It didn't. It was not. It didn't happen. But so she was suffering very much so with her mother. And her father, Mariano, was basically nowhere to be found. He just, like, not that he would have been helpful, but of been helpful, but he basically spent most of his time drinking

with friends and would return home in the middle of the night if at all. Anytime he was just was nowhere. And one evening, they actually, Amelia and Leonardo had to go out looking for him because they couldn't find him. And they found him passed out in one of his usual drinking spots, but he was totally unconscious and they could not wake him up. So they didn't call the doctor, they just carried his body back to the house

and put it in an empty room and he died there. Oh, so, okay. This show is sponsored by BetterHelp. Do you ever feel like your brain is getting its own way? Yes, I personally do. Sometimes it's like, I know what I should do. I know it's good for me, but sometimes I just can't do it. But listen, therapy helps you figure out what's holding you back so you can work for yourself

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Not long after that happened, Amelia married again. This time she did marry a more respectable and kinder man. Oh, wow. And she hoped that this whole thing was going to change how her parents would think of her, that she would be welcomed back into her family. Is it going to change how she mothers at all? No. And she was hoping that that would happen, but her parents were still very uninterested

with having anything to do with her, even though this guy was a step up from Mariana. That's so fucked up. So she couldn't get back in her parents' good gracious graces, couldn't get that social standing that Amelia was used to having and wanted back. She got a new plan that was going to get herself out of poverty.

She said, she figured she wasn't going to use her own skill, she wasn't going to use her own anything to climb that social ladder. She was going to scheme to find a wealthy suitor for Leonardo. And hope that that that her daughter who she treated like absolute dog shit her entire life would pull her out of the situation. I'm sure that's going to work out. It's like, you get what you give my friend. And the problem was though that Amelia did not tell Leonardo this. She was scheming in the background, scheming on the low. And Leonardo had already begun meeting and dating men.

Right. She was like taking her own thing. She wanted to get the fuck out of there. And so she eventually met this man named Rafa Ali Pinsardi, Leonardo met this man, and eventually fell in love with him. They had an actual relationship. Okay. And he was a little older than her, nothing crazy.

And he had what at the time would be considered a low status job. He was a registry clerk. Okay. And he was truly the first person in Leonardo's life to treat her well in ribose facts. Okay, I'm so happy you said that because as soon as you said she met someone, I was like, I'm so nervous right now. And he proposed marriage. She happily said, yes.

And this meant that she was going to get the fuck out of there. Be free of her mother. But remember, she wrecked Amelia's plan. So she was pissed. And when she heard of the engagement, Amelia, quote, told her daughter that she had placed a curse on her in Pensardi for ruining her life for a second time. What? Leonardo had been abused her entire life and had been criticized. She had had a self-esteem slam down at every turn. So hearing this from her mother, imprinted inside her. And she left with the thinking,

I've been cursed and I'm going to live a life of tragedy because I did this. Jesus. So it turned out that when she left her mother's house to Mary Raphael, Leonardo would never see her mom again, which is for the best. But it didn't turn out well for anybody. You know, Amelia had done so much psychological damage, even though she never contacted her again and never saw her again to let her inflict more.

It was in her. That influence was going to be felt for the rest of her life. She had changed her fundamentally. And although Raphael was by all accounts that we could find a very kind man who treated Leonardo very well, was patient, was loving. They had a very loving relationship. Yeah. A lifetime of abuse had left her relationship. A lifetime of abuse had left her waiting for the abuse to start. And so she was constantly paranoid about disappointing or irritating everybody. So she was just always on edge and always worried all the time. She probably had so much anxiety. And the abuse never came with

Raphael. He never abused her, but she was always waiting for it. And it only grew as she got further into married life. She was just not able to accept this gentler environment and a partner that didn't criticize her. So she turned the criticism into herself and became her own worst critic. Oh, no. Every mistake she made or any even perceived mistake that she would make, she would lob crippling criticism

at herself. And that can be frustrating for your partner too when they're trying to be like, I love you. I love you. You're great. You're fine. Like, stop talking like that about yourself.

Exactly. And she would fall into emotional turmoil. She cried a lot. She had a lot of intense bouts of, you know, emotions, fear, anxiety, depression. She's dealing with probably PTSD or some form of that. Absolutely.

And she didn't understand it. Her husband at the time couldn't understand it. Again, this is like the 1800s. I was going to say, exactly. Well, at this time, it's like, we're getting into the 1900s here. But he did do his best to be supportive and sympathetic. He did not turn on her. Like he was there.

And all of this was also exasperated by the fact that she was now having seizures, that she started having after she moved in with Raphaelie. And it's believed that she had this untreated illness as a child, that this was a lingering consequence of. And she was physically abuse. These could have been the results of that. Definitely. So again, she was raised to devout Catholic

and she was in a very Catholic country at the time. But she also had some interest in some like superstitious beliefs. Hell yeah. And by early adulthood, she had a big interest in supernatural stuff and magic and the occult. I wonder if the thought that she was cursed had anything to do with that interest.

Yep. And she was, you know, through that lens, the various negative parts of her life, like the, you know, the negative emotions, all the crying, the anxiety, the seizures, the paranoia, it all kind of made sense to her because she was like, it's the results of the curse that my mother had placed on me because I married Raphael. And as far as she could tell, the curse was affecting her husband as well, because given her low social status, Raphael's marriage to Leonardo was looked upon pretty poorly by his co-workers and superiors. So her low status was a couple steps above her. And whenever there was an opportunity to like get a promotion at work, he was always passed over because they had married her. They used that against her. That's so fucked up. Regardless of how long he had worked at a

place, like the marriage has nothing to do with the job. So desperate for any kind of guidance or anything here, Leonardo turned to the Romani community, hoping that the things she had heard about them being able to, you know, help you with these kind of things, like take the negative portions of your life and like help you turn them around, like tell you to tell you your future, help you manifest all that good stuff. She was hoping it was all true,

and she was like, I just need some guidance here. So one fall afternoon, she went to a local fair and she's seeked out a fortune teller who could help her. So she had been feeling, you know, dealing with the seizures, stealing she had headaches, she had crippling depression, anxiety, all this awful shit happening here for months and months. And she was honestly at this point convinced that she was dying. Wow.

She thought she was on the verge of death. And she just wanted someone to tell she was on the verge of death. And she just wanted someone to tell her, no, you're not. And so she located this woman. And the woman literally was walking her into the tent. And Leonardo said, am I going to die? Is that what the curse is going to do? That's the first thing she said.

And so the lady looked at Leonardo's palm and told her, no, you're not going to die, at least not anytime soon. Okay. And she said, if that was any relief, it was definitely short-lived, because you said, you're going to live a long life, but it will be a life full of sadness. You're going to outlive every one of your children. Oh, God!

Now, this was an early 20th century Italy. It was pretty understood that she was going to want and eventually have many children. Yeah, it was part of the whole deal here. And this seemed like a very cruel premonition. Yeah. But it didn't stop her from wanting to start a family. It was just a very scary thing.

And it was also something that just compounded on top of her already fear, anxiety, paranormal, paranoia, depression. Now she's, because she's already kind of obsessing over this idea of this curse that her mother has placed on her. And now she's hearing this and she's going, oh shit, this is the curse. This woman's nervous system, I can't even imagine. I can't even fathom. And so after three years of trying, Leonardo became pregnant in 1920. OK. Unfortunately, it was an immediate source of anxiety

because of that lingering thought. And she's already got so much anxiety anyway. And eventually, the seizures returned because her anxiety got so bad. And she had some falls, some accidental injuries because of the seizures. Right. And three months into the pregnancy, she had a seizure that caused a fall and she had severe abdominal pain and bleeding.

Oh, no. And they went to the doctor and the doctor said, I'm sorry, but you've miscarried. Oh, God. So this was devastating, obviously. She really wanted to become a mother because one of her things was she wanted to be the exact opposite of her mother and to be able to get that opportunity to be exactly through. And it also was reinforcing her belief that her mom's curse was real and she was going to have a life of tragedy and misery. Raphael, you wanted to be supportive.

So he was like, you know what? Nothing's keeping us here in Montelo, where we are. Let's relocate. Let's put all this bullshit behind us. Let's start somewhere new. So they packed up the things they had, and they moved, they left Montelo, and they kind of bounced around to a couple of towns

looking for work in somewhere to settle. And they finally went back to Rafael's hometown of Lauria, Patenza in 1921. Okay. And they had had some temporary jobs that were along the way, so they had some money saved. And they were able to save enough to buy a small house in Lauria. And they both found work and they settled down

and it seemed like it was a new start for them. Now, that was more than a hundred miles away from Montelo. So they were thinking, you know what, we left that in the fucking dust, like, goodbye. But just a few months into starting their new life, her anxiety was starting to, you know, slip away. It was getting better. It felt like it was like, okay, the seizures were lessening because she wasn't

as anxious. And soon after she was like, you know what? Maybe he's right. Like, maybe this curse is bullshit. Maybe we just needed a fresh star. We had to get the hell away from my mom. And you know, like, maybe I don't need to worry about fate. So much. Maybe I need to like, just create my own shit. I'm waiting for the other shoe to drop.

A year later in 1922, Leonardo became pregnant. Okay. She gave birth to a boy. And they named this boy Giuseppe. And from the moment he came into this world, she was determined to be an infinitely better mother than Amelia was to her. She devoted every waking moment to this child, his health, his happiness, but she kept hearing that curse in the back of her mind, and

along with the premonition told her by that fortune teller, and so she now had a whole host of new anxieties to start rolling around in her brain here. Because I mean, any new parent, the new anxieties that come with that are indescribable and aplenty. So for someone who is already suffering from a monumental amount of trauma and anxieties and depression and paranormal, Torah and fear, this is just unthinkable.

A recipe for disaster. And it caused her to be hyper-vigilant and overprotective of Giuseppe. And although the pregnancy wasn't a bad pregnancy, which is good, it did require her to leave her job at the time. And so they were getting by on only Rafaela's paycheck, and even though she didn't want to be away from her son, she wanted to find a job because there was a second fear she had

of like she wanted his health and safety, and she was also so scared that they would lose all their money and that she would be, you know, it was always back to him. Like, I can't was always back to him. Right. I can't let something happen to him. Oh God, I feel, I'm like feeling for a so much friend. It's a whole story is very sad.

But the problem was that Leonardo didn't have a lot of marketable skills at the time and also she was a woman at the time. So she was at a pretty big disadvantage. And so she just took whatever job she could and she eventually found one as an after hours cleaner at a local tavern. Now when she was at work, she was just plagued with fear and worry about what might happen

to just set you up. She was away from home. Yeah. And when she was home, she spent all her time just obsessing, micromanaging her son in order to protect him. And initially, he was just like, oh, you know, like, she's just, you know, she's just mom, like it's fine.

Yeah. But then he got older and he started socializing and he started seeing other parents. And he was like, Not every mom is like this. Oh, like this is smothering and like, I'll watch. This is a problem. And then she started kind of isolating him

from other children because she was discouraging him from socializing because she, you know, she was so there's a lot of psychological issues happening here. Very much so. Obviously that's going on that I'm not going to sit here and diagnose because I'm not a doctor. But like clearly there's other things going on here that that abuse has played into that all kinds of manner of things have have played in, definitely. And it's now, it's like, even though she's going a totally different route than her mother one, it's not a great route.

It's also not a positive thing. It's like we're going to the pendulum swinging too far the other way. But despite the fears and stress that motherhood brought and the physical demands of her work now, Leonardo and Rafa Rafael were wanted more children. And unfortunately, their attempts to have more children were kind of thwarted for a while because they had a lot of miscarriages over the next few years. A couple. And they had multiple in a row.

And finally, after some heart breaks, she gave birth to two girls in a very short period of time back to back. And then after that, a son came again. Okay. So now she's got two sons, two daughters. And each time she was like, you know what? Like, I'm that cursed smurs. Like, this is going to be fine. But within a few years of them being born,

the children began getting sick. And first her son, the youngest son, the one that was born more recently, not Giuseppe, was getting rashes. And they would get very severe. And then one of the girls got a terrible cough. And this one daughter, her lungs were filling with fluid and she was coughing any time she was laid down. So Leonardo would sit upright every single night holding her up so that she could sleep. Oh, my God. That's also not helping with her mental health. No.

Because now she's not getting sleep. She's so fearful that all this is going to happen. And she did everything she could, and I'm sure Ruff Eile did too, but she ended up passing away. A little girl. Just a few months later, they woke one morning to find their youngest son had died in his sleep.

Oh my, like just could have been sids. Wow. I don't know. It's like that point out of me. Right. Right. Again, given they were so young, like babies, because they were all born in very quick succession, which is just something that happened there in the era in which they

died. There wasn't an autopsy or anything, you know, to say what happened to these children, because this was unfortunately a little common. Now, this is tragic. She's lost two children. And this is very short period on her fear of the curse and the premonition. And she was just inconsolable. Of course. And according to Ryan Green, the author I mentioned earlier, she abandoned her part-time jobs entirely and devoted every waking moment to paranoid observation of her surviving children. Oh, God.

Which I can't even fathom this, I really can't. And things only got worse a few months later. That second daughter contracted the same coughing illness and died of the same illness. So now she just has Giuseppe again. Oh my God. Now, three of you children die. The death of any child is incomprehensible

and such a deeply traumatic experience that anybody would just fall into the void. But when you add like a curse and several deaths of children, the idea of a curse and all that, and there's no way there's no autopsy to tell you that like this isn't a curse, this is like a congenital thing. This is a scientific thing. Some kind of hereditary thing, this is a SIDS kind of thing where you couldn't have avoided it. It's just you know like all this stuff. But whatever the real explanation know, like all this stuff. But whatever the real explanation was, as far as Leonardo was concerned, this is just

proof of the curse. And she was sure that this was just going to continue happening and that it was going to come for Giuseppe eventually. So the incredible loss caused a bout of depression unlike anything that she had ever experienced before. And I mean, the anxiety ramped up, the seizures were now ramping out. She was in very poor health at this point. And, you know, Rafael, he was also struggling

with the same grief, like as a father. But he was also trying to help her and trying to keep her from succumbing essentially. I'm actually really, really loved her. He did. He really stuck around and he really loved her. He could wanted her to be better. And so he tried to console her and then he was like,

you know what, this was a bad time in our lives. But again, we're of that era too, where he was like, let's have more children. Oh God. And he was like, that's what makes you happiest is being a mom. So let's, you know, let's just fill our house with children again. It's like, that is really what compounds her anxiety to. Yeah. It's like this, I can, I know the intention. Totally. Totally. A hundred percent. But oh God. Like watching from out here, you're just like, oh no.

Well, then he was so sad. Also probably thinking about all of this falling onto Giuseppe as well. Yeah. And he's trying to fill a void in his own heart. And it's all very sad and like very incomprehensible, truly. That's why I'm like, even the world, I can't even like put my own opinion in here

because I can't even go there. No. And she was reluctant at this point because she was reluctant to tempt fate, but eventually they did try to get pregnant again. And in a few years after that, she did successfully deliver five healthy baby boys. What?

Yeah. So she had four kids before that and then had three of them passed away and then she had five more baby boys. She had nine fucking kids. three of them passed away and then she had five more baby boys. And nine fucking kids. All of them died. What?

Yes. How? And there was no, from all the sources, there is no sign of abuse, there is no sign of, and her children, like, like, you know, there's no, nothing that said that they were abused or killed or poisoned. But there's also no autopsy around to. Yeah. But there was no like Raphael, he didn't claim that there was any kind of shenanigans going on. And they all died very young.

Wow. I don't know what to think of it. I think it's a horrifying and staggering number of children to lose. And she obviously becomes a murderer. Yes. So it does make you question it slightly. Absolutely. But we don't know.

No idea. And all I know is that all the sources are saying that it's without explanation. I wonder if there's any possibility of munchausans? I don't know. I don't know. Or, I don't know. Or if it's just fucking tragedy on tragedy, yeah, it's all tragic regardless. And later, when she spoke about this,

she was quoted as saying, almost every night I dreamed of small white coffins swallowed one after the other by black earth. Oh my God. Yeah. So the grief drove her deeper and deeper into depression and despair, you know, and she's just becoming more paranoid, more anxious, more upset. And it was so bad that like Giuseppe, you know, he couldn't let his guard down for even a minute with her. Like she was on him.

down for even a minute with her. Like she was on him 24, 7, just said he was the vocal point of everything. I bet. And luckily at this point, thanks to the connections that Ralph Aielli had made in the community through his job, because he was a really hard worker and like we said, a kind guy. Right. They found more work for her as an after-hour cleaner at a local bank. Okay. So it was a better environment, a court. You like she liked it better. And now she could focus on, hopefully focus on something else.

Yeah. And the job suited her for a time. And she didn't mind, you know, it was repetitive. It was kind of isolated, the hours and all that, but she didn't really mind it. Okay. The only complaint she really had was that after she had to pay out of her pocket for cleaning supplies. Oh, that's true. And after that, she was left with very little.

So it was like she was away from her son and not really bringing home enough to really make it worth it. Right. So in an effort to change this, she started making her own soap and her own cleaning supplies. Right, right.

And at this point, she's just making her own soap and her own cleaning supplies. But even right. And at this point, she's just making her own soap, her own cleaning supplies. But even that wasn't really a much of an improvement in what she was taking home. And she was still obsessing over what was happening to her son when she wasn't there. Oh, God. Now, one evening after everyone had left the bank

for the evening, she went into the manager's office and she created a fake account for herself in one of the bank ledgers and transferred a not-so-subtle amount of money into her account. Oh, no. I don't know the exact amount, but it wasn't subtle. Not like 20 bucks. And she ended up slipping out of the office.

She was like, no one's going to know that. But this is 1930. How would you feel? This is 1930, but like, even in 1930, banks keep meticulous books. They know when there's a discrepancy. And so when she came back to work the next afternoon, she was met by the police who rested her on a fraud charge. Oh shit.

Now, the rest in the criminal charge were definitely a source of embarrassment and anxiety all by themselves. Of course. But then she quickly realized that by doing this to try to help her family, she could affect her family greatly with this more important, most importantly, her son. And unlike her usual, you know, fears and anxiety and paranoia, this wasn't really unreasonable one to be worried about. No, that's legit. Because although Raphael, like we said, he was well respected, well liked,

the shame and suspicion of this could have fallen back on him at his job where they could say he had something to do with this or knew about it. And she realized this and she was like, oh shit. So in order to place as much distance between that happening and her, she went out of her way to make sure everyone knew that she did it by herself, that he had nothing to do with it. Raphael, he did not know about it.

She said, I only did it because I was, quote, seized by madness. Okay. But she made sure, like, he did not know about it. Yeah. Do not punish him for that. But she's clearing her husband's name. Yeah. Or trying to, at the very least, they did love each other.

It sounds like it. That is. That is one thing that I truly believe. Yeah. Now, she went before a judge in 19... It was 1927. So when I said 1930, before I meant like almost 1930, not exactly.

And she was found guilty of fraud and sentence to 18 months in an institution that had once served as a nunnery and was still operated by the church. and the world's supposed to make sense. But you and I know better, don't we? We know that the best horror stories are the ones we tell each other in the dark, so turn off your lights and close your eyes. In each episode of I Hear Fear, you'll be treated to a new psychological thriller, a forest monster who lures teens into the woods and never lets them return. A line of beauty products that takes the search for youth to dark extremes, and

an EDM party that turns deadly when the DJ takes over more than just the dance floor. Strap in, as these twisted stories and paranormal events take you on a suspenseful and thrilling ride. I hear fear will introduce immersive horror and lead you straight into the heart of darkness. Follow I Hear Fear on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcast. You can listen to I Hear Fear early in At Free right now by joining Wondery Plus. Now, according to Geneviva Ortiz, who is the author of the deadly

soap maker of Corregio, the true story of Leonardo Chinchuli, what would have been considered a very grueling sentence and mistreatment at the hands of nuns because it was not a nice place. Any other woman who was in that institution was just in a hell of their own making at that point. No. It was child's play, to Leonardo. She was like she had gone through so well.

But you can make a group with Amelia. Like, this is nothing. Like, she didn't, she dealt with physical and psychological abuse of her own mom. So she was like, yeah, this doesn't even face me. She's a fat-daced, unaffected. That's so fucked up. She got through every day, easy as pie,

didn't bother her. And she said, what got her through it, what's thinking about just sepia waiting for her on the other side? Yeah, she probably just had a level of just association that he can't even imagine. Now, Leonardo went through her sentence, no incident, and was released a little over a year later.

And when she got home, though, it was not great, because Raphael had lost his job because of the crime. Oh, no. He was, like, regardless of her trying to distance it, they were like, no, we don't buy crime. Oh, no. He was like, regardless of her trying to distance it, they were like, no, we don't buy it. Oh, no. So his reputation was tarnished in the community. And it was full town to you, that's his family.

It was tarnished throughout the whole thing. Oh, no. And after years of being super supportive and super patient and super understanding, he got a little resentful at that point. And he figured, and to him, he was like, where has my patients gotten me? Like, I mean, yeah. This is what happened. And according to our teas, for the first time in their marriage,

he'd become openly critical of a mistake. Ooh. And it's a hard one, man. And given the shame that she, and the end of the turmoil that she brought to her family now, and the ways that her crime had affected everything. Rafael E. Barrowed a small amount of money and was like, we gotta get out of here. Like we can't stay here.

No way. So they relocated to Las Adonia, Avelino, and they hoped to start over again. Now, for the second time, they had uprooted themselves, they were gonna start a new life, but now they have a child with them. So they can't sleep in strangers, hay barns,

and in exchange for a day's labor and all that, which is what they did the last time they relocated, and it was just like adventure together as a couple. Now they have a child. So when they finally reached Lasidonia, Rafael E. found a clerical job, and they were able pretty quickly to afford a very small house and a very rural village.

It took a few months, but they settled in, and once the move was behind them, things calmed down. So Leonardo and Raffa Ellie were able to reconnect. Everything calmed down, the tension kind of chilled out, and she again found herself pregnant. the tension kind of chilled out. And she again found herself pregnant. Which just brought back the same anxieties and fears that the baby was going to die like all the other ones. So and she and fortunately she was spared that tragedy right away because she did end up having a healthy baby. And she ended up having another healthy baby

right after that. Okay. So she was 12 pregnant. I was just gonna say I lost count at this. It's either 11 or 12. So now she has Giuseppe and two other babies. They were very quick together. Yeah, and it's, so, you know, at this point,

the children seemed to be doing okay. And her and Rafael's relationship was on the mend, seeming to put the mistakes in the past, and we're gonna just pretend that didn't happen. But she was just unable to shake this fear, and unable to shake this paranoia and the feelings of, you know, suspiciousness that something's gonna, the other shoe's gonna drop.

And whenever she had the chance to visit another traveling fortune teller, she would do it, which only fed her anxieties. And one afternoon, about two years after they came to Las Adonia, she visited another one, and this woman took her hands in hers, and looked at them,

and then looked her in the face and said, in your right hand, I see a prison, in your left, a criminal asylum. Oh, wow. Which also makes me think like, damn, these were like the real deal. I was going to say, and Leonardo just left this woman and went home.

And this is, she went right back to obsessing over possible future tragedy, because that doesn't sound great. That's like, girly, that is in your control. Yeah. And on 1930, after, about three years after arriving in Las Adonia, there was a violent and destructive earthquake that struck the region. It killed more than 1,000 people and caused so much damage, including Leonardo and Raphael's house.

It was completely destroyed. Oh, no. So they were devastated, but they were able to collect what they had in the rebel and Raphael's house. It was completely destroyed. Oh no. So they were devastated, but they were able to collect what they had in the rubble and had to relocate again. And the people that they still had their whole family. Yeah. They ended up going to the city of Corregio.

And the residents of Corregio. Corregio. They knew of this devastating earthquake and they welcomed all the people that were displaced from Lasidonia. And these people in Correggio did everything they could to make sure these people felt welcome

and like gave them opportunity, like they were super warm, super hospitable to these people. And so they were so nice that they helped Rafael he find a good job right away. Wow. And community. Yeah, and it's like for the first time since the whole like jail thing happened

and since they went to Las Adonia, things weren't as fucking terrible as they have been. Like, you know, it seemed like, okay, they were stable at this point. They had an income now. Raphael, you got a pretty good job. The children were healthy. They were making friends.

They weren't doing well in school. Everything seemed like it was on the up and up, but Leonardo was still in the middle. She was just waiting. And the earthquake had affected her so deeply. It shook her in a way that the other tragic events hadn't yet. It was like after this event, she internalized all the collective horrible events that had happened. And she was like, this was all my fault.

It was my fault for marrying Rafalee in the first place. It's like no. And that curse, like this is it. She cannot look at this all and go, it's in the past. I just got to move forward. I got to look at my happiness that I have and move forward. She just can't seem to do it. No.

And as a result, she kind of went the other way and just gave up the hyper vigilance because she was like, you know what? I can't protect them from this curse. So I just have to live. Which is so it was almost like a positive thing. Okay. Where she got hyper hyper hyper obsessed. And she couldn't settle herself down about it. And then it got so bad and so unsettled, even though everything was so stable, that she just went, fuck it. And then it was like she was able to just, okay. For a moment, it was difficult, but she was like, I'm gonna let go,

and I'm gonna try to just live. And I'm gonna try to be in this moment. But then, and she started to feel a little bit stable. She was starting to gain a little bit, something she probably never felt before. So I'm sure it was a scary feeling. And she was kind of trying to like integrate back into like being a human and being. So she started, you know, she made friends in the community. She participated in community events. And she and Raphaelie eventually became a very well-liked

and very well-respected couple in the community. Wow, they were working in eventually friends and neighbors, like helped her buy this, open this little storefront in the village. For soap. And it was attached to the family home. And so she did, she sold handmade soaps, other handy crafts because that's what she was good at.

And she was popular in town. Like everybody was like like Leonardo and Rafael. Like everything was like, what the fuck is this? This is like the most on its head from what it was. It's like, it's such a like six, you would think it's a success tale. It was just like, holy shit, you came out of the brinks of just despair

and like the depths of despair and just awfulness. What are you? You're feeling it. I'm so worried. And by 1940, unfortunately, Italy had found itself drawn into the Second World War. Mm. You know, and the war effort was ramping up

and they needed soldiers and the Italian military employed a campaign of nationalism to convince young men to join the fight. Somebody who was very enticed by this was Giuseppe. He saw the war as an opportunity to fight for his national pride, but also get away from his overbearing mother. And so Leonardo didn't find out from Giuseppe that he joined the army. She found out from neighbors at the market. That's not good. And she had gone through her entire

existence just trying to protect these children from this perceived curse. So this was pretty devastating for her. Because at this point the war hadn't preached. It's like peak combat violence. But the risk was undeniable here. Like, there was a very high certainty that something bad would happen to him. Yeah. And after all the years that she had obsessed over protecting him and watching him, she was like, I can't let this go. I'm not letting this happen.

So she was literally unwilling to let this happen, but he was an adult now, unable to do it. So she decided to turn back to her interest in, you he was an adult now and able to do it. So she decided to turn back to her interest in books on the occult and superstitions and like old texts. And she was like, I'm going to find a way to save his life, to like keep him from something bad happening. Okay. I wish she looked up a way to like lift occurs. Yeah. You know, which is like, I wish he looked up a way to like lift a curse. Yeah, you know? Or just like, you know, at that point,

self-help wasn't really like thing, you know? No, that's the thing. That's the unfortunate time period of the show. That's your self-help, lift the curse. Yeah, you know. Now, in the years since they'd moved to Coragio, Leonardo had relaxed, like I said, and settled into this kind of like less anxious existence,

but this just turned it all on its head. Of course. I was waiting. And Leonardo had continued sporadically visiting fortune tellers and had become a little bit of a student of the occult at that point. Just like, you know, it was a bother at that point. And she was learning about magic and learning about fortune telling and like, you know, like the cunning women that we talked about, like, you know, in previous episodes of like the 1600s.

Fun trip. And she ended up getting this huge collection of books that she was collecting about the different subjects. All healthy. Yeah. Until then. Uh-huh. So she went looking in this collection, trying to find something that could help her son

to keep him safe. Sure. And she found what she thought was the solution in a book called The Law of Equivalent Exchange. Mm-hmm. Oh, okay. I see where we're going. Yeah.

So according to the book, she could insure to be safety. But in order to do so, she would have to offer another life as exchange. Equal exchange. You know? According to Genevieve Ortiz, who I mentioned before, the thought of human sacrifice deeply disturbed Leonardo. That's good, but she felt she had no other choice. That's not good.

No. If she wanted to protect him, she was going to have to exchange someone else's life. Oh, wow. As we can see, there is something deep happening here. There's a mental illness that we can't even begin to describe. And I think, I don't think there's just one. I think there's many.

Oh, several in the trauma. A lot of everything. So Leonardo started collecting all the things she was gonna need to create an effective poison to do this. And she began to think about who her victim would be, who her sacrifice would be. If you say Rafi Eliamo. No, okay, okay, good. If you say Rafi Eliamo. No.

Okay, good. But she settled on a woman named Faustina Setti who was a 76-year-old spinster. Oh my God. And as far as Leonardo knew, she didn't really have a lot of family and not a lot of ties in the community. And she's still 76-year-old one. Now, in the years since she opened that shop in Corregio, Faustina had been one of the many women who would come by regularly, even supported her business, and you're going

to sacrifice her. And she would come by to just chat with her, share her like, you know, her woes, kind of thing. And she would lament a lot about how lonely she was. That's horrible. And her social position as a spinster meant that the community kind of looked down on her sort of like somebody deserving pity a little bit and that's really it. It's like, okay, you've been there before too, Leonardo.

Exactly. And Leonardo was able to convince herself that she would actually be doing Fustina a favor by ending her life. I'm murdering her. I'm just ending her misery. And she figured that it was going to ensure that Faustina's life became meaningful because she was sacrificing her to save Giuseppe. So she was convincing herself that this was fine.

So once she figured that out, she invited Faustina to the shop and she said, I found a man who was interested in meeting you. And so Faustina was desperate to be married to get out of this spinsterhood. a man who was interested in meeting you. And he looked and so she I mean, Fostino was desperate to be married to get out of this, this spinsterhood. Even at 76. And so Leonardo told her that she'd been exchanging letters with a man in Pula. And once he'd seen a photo of Fostino, he was in love, thought she was beautiful. This is so cruel. So she totally, cruelly exploited this woman's loneliness. And unfortunately it worked.

Of course. And Faustina was so happy, she immediately made arrangements to travel to Pula to meet this man. And knowing that she had at least like a couple family members in the area and scattered around the country, Leonardo said, oh, you should write a series of letters to your family members so people don't become concerned about your absence, and they won't interfere

with your new relationships. So just let them know that you're going to be gone. This is cold blooded. See, we start, it's like a switch. Like seriously, like, this was already in here. Yeah, somewhere. Yeah, it was. Because we get to a point where you go, huh.

What was that about? Like, nothing makes sense here, even with your, you're trying to validate it in your own mind. Yeah, I was. Somewhere. Because we get to a point where you go, huh. What was that about? Like, nothing makes sense here, even with your, you're trying to validate it in your own mind. Yeah. And Fustina did it all. She wrote the letters. And Leonardo promised to mail the letters

a few days after she had left. So on the morning that she was supposed to leave, she went to Leonardo's shop and she was so excited, so nervous. This is so mean. And Leonardo invited her to sit down and have a drink of wine to calm her nerves. It obviously never would have occurred to her that this was a bad thing to do.

No. Because Leonardo was her friend. Yeah. So she did. She sat down, but the wine was drugged. Mm-hmm. So she became very drowsy, very ill, very out of it. And she was starting to panic

and becoming a little immobile from the effects. And Leonardo went into another room and came back in holding an axe. Oh, later Leonardo would tell authorities that she, what her intention was to swing the axe and cause a single blow to the back of her head to kill her quickly, but she misjudged. And the axe came down hard into fusting a shoulder and shattered her clavicle. Oh my God. The woman was paralyzed in agony, like just screaming. Leonardo had to literally like rip the axe out and then brought it down again and again and again. And she said all she thought about was just sepis safety as she did it. No.

So what ended up being was a fucking massacre and a nightmare in her shop, right? It was, yep, and it was covered in Fustina's blood. It was tissue, all manner of biological matter, all over the room, covering Leonardo. Wow. Later, in her published memoir, titled An Embittered Souls Confession, she said this. This is me just backing into the trees, like Elizabeth's son right now. Her fucking me sort backing into the trees. This is where I'm sitting right now.

Her fucking me sort of. You heard her words. I threw the pieces into a pot, added seven kilos of caustic soda, which I had bought to make soap, and stirred the whole mixture into the pieces, dissolved in a thick, dark mush, that I poured into several buckets

and emptied it in a nearby septic tank. As for the blood in the basin, I waited until it had coagulated, dried it in the oven, ground it, and mixed it with flour, sugar, chocolate, milk, and eggs, as well as a little bit of margarine, needing all the ingredients together. I made lots of crunchy tea cakes and served them to the ladies who came to visit, though just sepian, I also ate them. I... Yeah, that's how I acted when I first read that.

My mouth... I... ...conigated, and I just had nothing to say. She literally used her blood to make crunchy tea cakes and served them to unsuspecting patrons of her shop and also ate them herself and served them to her child, who she is protecting. Question mark? What the fuck?

Did she say that like the the book said, he had to eat it? So there's nothing. No. I think this is just her own little sprinkle of magic on top of it. That's an upsetting way to describe that. I don't have words right now. Yeah. What the fucking fuck you absolute monster. Yep.

See how it flips. The whole time you're sitting there going, oh my god, this poor woman, the tragedy she is endured. And this is when you look back and you go, she went mad, huh? She went fucking mad. And a lot of death happened around you. That's the thing. And I don't know what, there's nothing that says

she did anything to her children. And I will remain there, but I'm just saying this and we don't have all the evidence. It's questionable at the very least. When you look at this, you go, well, fuck. Yeah. But again, there's nothing that says that she did anything to her children, but my goodness, this is her first kill. Wow. Now, according to the law of equivalent exchange, the sacrifice should have ensured, you know, in easy exchange. She's a big stage.

But as far as Leonardo could tell, this wasn't an easy exchange. She was like, you know what, this was not easy. I ended up being very messy and very horrific. And she said. And then I made cake about it. Yeah, you know, and then she said the flesh and the fat that she was actually, because you know, she made the blood

into tea cakes. She was thinking, you know what, I can have this equivalent exchange and save Jisepi. I can also make tea cakes out of the blood. And I can also use the fat and the flesh to make some soap. And I can get some, you know, a lot of good stuff out of this. But she said, you know, because it was such a messy murder, it was all kind of rendered useless. She couldn't use the fat in the flesh. It didn't work.

So she said, I don't know. I don't think it went that well. So, you know, there was a lot of mistakes, a lot of mishaps here. And so she believed, I don't think I did it correctly. I don't think it's gonna work. I don't think the magic is gonna work. And you know, it just sepis safety is on the line here. And I think it worked. Just sepis safety is on the line here. And I think it worked. Just sepis safety is a scapegoat at this point. I also think that I think that's a bunch of bullshit.

And so she said gotta do it again. No. One murder is one murder. Do many. Like that is not okay. And after several weeks passed, without anyone really suspecting any foul play in Fustina's absence, you know, they didn't think she was murdered

because she wanted to see her man. Yeah, Leonardo began making plans for the second sacrifice and found her next victim would be Francesca Soavi. Now, unlike Fustina, Francesca was a former school teacher and active member of the community, and she didn't have any children of her own, but she was actually a widow, a recent widow. And Francesca was going to be missed and noticed. Yeah, she's young. So very

different, like, unfortunately, from Fossina, like she really tried to pick somebody that didn't have a lot of ties. Yeah. And, but Francesca was in desperate need of work at this moment since her husband had passed away. Yeah. And so she turned to Leonardo for advice. No thank you. Now in a visit to the shop, Francesca explained the whole thing like, oh geez, like I need to find work, like this is awful. And Leonardo said, wow, lucky, lucky solution here.

Because she said, I happen to know a very good and well-paying job at a girl's school in the northern city of Piachenza, I believe it is. I'm sorry Italian listeners, but you know, you got to get there quickly to apply. It's not going to be vacant was excited for an opportunity to get out of her space and their grief at this point. Yeah, of course. And so she didn't ask a lot of questions. She was like, sure, awesome. Leonardo is a good lady. I like her and Rafael. Why would I worry about this? They're so well respected.

So one September morning, she arrived at Leonardo's shop early before she planned to leave to go apply for this job. And Leonardo was like, sit down, write a couple of postcards to loved ones telling you why you're, you know, telling them why you're leaving. You don't want to worry them, but you got to get there, like, because you got to get there so quick that we don't, you don't have time to tell everybody. And she said, don't tell anyone where you're headed because people might try to stop you from taking this job

because they won't want you to move away from them. So, don't tell them where you're going, just tell them that you're going to take a job, so they don't stop you. Oh, man. She is. Yeah. Fucking wild dude.

That's the thing, there's so much fucking cold callousness here in Cunning. Yeah. Involved in this in manipulation. And just, oh, just, yeah. And so she said, you know what, sit down, have a glass of wine before you leave. And she poured her a glass of poison wine

and quickly it disoriented her. She disappeared into the back room and returned with an axe in her hand. She's going to do the axe again. Well, this time she knew what to expect. And she said she swung with confidence this time. Oh, good. She hit Francesca on the back of the head. He ax buried directly into her skull. Oh, God. And it was hard and did the job in one swing. Oh, now certain that she had killed her, Leonardo went through her belongings, taking anything that was of value.

What? So, wait, I thought this was a sacrifice to protect your son. Why is he on her shit? That's not an even exchange. Because she just got rid of the rest. She kept the stuff that was valuable. What? Yeah. So, it's like, honey, are going to find them. Yeah. And then she

dismembered her body. This time she was careful in the execution of this because she wanted to use that flesh and fat to create some soap. The blood was dried and eventually went into more popular tea cakes. The remaining flesh and other useless parts, her, what she deemed useless, were tossed into a vat of caustic soda and then thrown into the sludge pit behind the house later that evening. Later, after she had been arrested, Leonardo said she only killed this woman

because of her deluded belief that doing so would protect her son during the war. And obviously that is deeply irrational. This would have been a plausible explanation if she looked at it as like a like she is deeply disturbed. Yeah. And sick and needs to be taken away. Taking care of that. You'd be like, okay, like maybe she thinks that. And if you can one person, that's the thing. Because like, and it would still be horrific. You could only, and you could almost look at it as she's saying, that first one didn't feel right.

So put the law of equal exchange says that it needs to be easy when it wasn't easy. So I was worried that I fucked it up and that it wasn't going to work. So you could almost understand why a sick person would delude themselves into believing that they need to do it correctly. wasn't going to work. So you could almost understand why a sick person would delude themselves into believing that they need to do it correctly.

You could almost believe that if you're looking at it, like this is a sick person. You know what I mean? Like not any rational person thinking this, like looking at the sickness. You could almost think that. But given that the murder, this murder, the second murder of Francesca Soavi,

it should have satisfied the law of equivalent exchange that would ensure just safety, correct? Like what you did it. According to the deluded, irrational and deeply disturbed and sick thinking of Leonardo. Yep. This, you did it in one swing.

It was quote unquote easy, relative to the first one. Yep. Postina. Yep. This should be it. Correct. One would think, well, one would think that also you wouldn't steal her things and make her into tea cakes and soap.

Thank you. One thinks a lot, I guess. This was also not the last murder that she committed. Yeah, I know. Yeah, and I didn't even know that to be fact, but I just know you just know now her third victim was completely senseless. They all are, but even by her own rationale, it would make this victim completely senseless. This one also comes off as very personal in petty. Somebody pissed her off, huh? Yeah. So in Karejio, there were not a lot of like famous people walking around. It was a

pretty small village, but there was one notable resident. Her name was Virginia Kachopo. Okay. She was actually a former opera star. Oh, shit. And Kachopo had retired from the stage because it was after her husband had died several years earlier. So you know, she was a wealthy patron of the arts. She was a beloved resident in Carregeo. And according to Ortiz, quote, Leonardo resented and admired Virginia and equal amounts. She was jealous. She wanted to be her. Now remember, Virginia is very well respected. So is Leonardo. Yeah, at this point. Remember, she's a high thought of very respectable

in this community. So they became close friends. Oh, no. Several years earlier. And when Virginia decided, I miss the excitement of urban life and she wanted to move to a larger city. She was like, I gotta get out of here. I wanna leave.

Leonardo took this as a personal betrayal of their friendship that she was leaving her, but she was just abandoning her. That's wild. And she said, she thought, you know what? According to Ortiz, she said, if she wanted someone good enough to kill for Giuseppe, Virginia was as good as it got in a place like Corregia. But Charity killed someone. Twain for Giuseppe. So was as good as it got in a place like Corregia. But Charity killed someone trying to use Giuseppe. So I think we can

let go of that theory. Yep. Now she's a pretty similar tactic as she had in the first two victims. She told Virginia that there was an available secretarial job in Florence and you know that was really good for her skill set. It was a pretty cute job. You know, like it was going to be the city. And when Virginia arrived at the store on the morning of September 30th, 1940, things got off to like not an easy start for her plan because Virginia repeatedly refused

to Leonardo's offer for wine. She was like, no, thank you. She kept insisting, kept insisting. And after a while, she was like, fine, I'll have a little drink with you. Uh-oh. But it took a long time in some real shudging. And she took her time drinking that wine. She ended up finishing the entire glass, so she sat and talked with her. And that's when the poison began to work.

Oh, no. Virginia became a mobile. And Leonardo laid her on the floor of the shop and carefully, as she's conscious, but a mobile removed all her expensive jewelry and anything of value on her and stuff them all in her own pockets. Oh my God. So that's fuck us. I don't think it's to save Jisepie anymore. Everybody. That's not, I don't think it was extra to save Giuseppe. I mean, none of it would have been an even exchange, but this is definitely not. Then she left the room as Leon artist laying there mobile,

or no, or excuse me, then as Virginia's laying there, a mobile, and she returns with an axe, and she raised it above her head and Virginia's laying on the floor. And she brings it down in Virginia's chest and shattered several of her ribs in one blow. And Virginia was said to let out one small gasp and then died on the floor.

Wow. Leonardo quickly dismembered the body as she had done previously, saved any usable parts for soap and tea cakes again. And recalling this whole thing, Leonardo wrote in her memoir, she ended up in the pot like the other two. Her flesh was fat and white. When it had melted, I added a bottle of cologne. And after a long time on the boil, I was able to make the most acceptable creamy soap.

I hate it. I gave bars to neighbors the most acceptable creamy soap. I hate it. I gave bars to neighbors and acquaintances. The cakes too were better. That woman was really sweet. That is so disturbing. So disturbing. That's monstrous. That's monstrous.

That's monstrous. That's not what I'm doing this for the sole purpose of my child safety. This is like, I like doing this. And later to write in your memoir and try to make it like a... That woman was really sweet. Like, the tea cakes were better. And trying to say like, she was so sweet. Like, that was a double meaning.

Yeah. You know what you did there. Oh yeah. That's fucking atrocious. And now, apparently, remember, Jacepppe is a grown boy here at war. No, man. A few days later, after she'd finished making the soap from Virginia's remains, Leonardo took a bar home and insisted that Giuseppe wash himself with it. He was a teenager at the time and he was like,

no, like that's weird that you're just giving me this random bar or something to wash with. So he dragged him into the tub, pulled off his clothes for him, and washed him entirely from head to toe with it. And then she brought him to the kitchen and made him eat some tea cakes. This is? That were made with Virginia's blood.

No, that's another crime. So in the first two cases, she had successfully avoided suspicion. Neither one of the women had huge family ties. I guess like, you know, Francesca had more than Faustina, but it's still not very many. Virginia. It was like she went up in each time with how many people were going to wonder where they were. Well, and with Francesca, she had her right letters, but she didn't have Virginia right any others. Now, just a few weeks after the murder, Leonardo was beginning to feel,

as you know, I think I did satisfy the law of equivalent exchange. Like I think I'm good. And then Virginia's sister-in-law, Albertina Fanty came knocking on the door, looking for Virginia. And basically, Virginia had told her, Albertina Fanty came knocking on the door looking for Virginia. And basically, Virginia had told her, Albertina, about the potential job in Florence,

and had told her, I heard about it from Leonardo. Right. So she decided to go straight to the source. And she's like, listen, your tea cakes are fucking weird lately. Leonardo had not accounted for this possibility happening. So she just stared at her. And then this woman is peppering her with direct questions, being like, what the fuck happened here?

So she just apologized and closed the door. Gurley, I mean, I'm glad that it went that way because like that's us. So, Albertina was like, that's weird. That's weird. So she went about town asking about her sister and this whole thing. And at one point, she learned that two other women

from town who had disappeared after going to Leonardo's shop. And eventually, she took her suspicions to the local police who started to investigate all the disappearances. That's all I'd like to report a crime question mark. Now, Leonardo had been careful to cover her track. She did a very thorough job of cleaning up after herself. There was really not a lot in the way of evidence

for the investigators to work with. And it's the 40s? Yeah, at this point, it's the 40s. So we didn't really have DNA or anything like that. But not of anything like that. But what they did have with a postcards. So the postcards and letters that she had these women right, they were all mailed by Giuseppe.

She had her son mailed these and just like, just being like, can you run this errand? Yeah, of course he didn't know. And in this case, so Giuseppe had mailed these letters, they knew this now. Yeah. So now, just like when she was arrested for the fraud case, it hit her. Oh, just happy.

She's going to go down. I'm going to get him in trouble for this. So her son was arrested. Right. She was connected to it now. And she went straight to the police and confessed to everything. What? She went to the police.

I didn't see that, she's coming. That's what I'm saying. This is a twisty turnie. You cannot understand any of it. No, but she wasn't even suspected. She wasn't even suspected. She was only arrested because his name, he was the one who mailed those things. They were like, he did it.

He obviously killed these women. She went, confessed to all three murders. Insisted, he had nothing to do with anything. He didn't know about anything. I told him just to mail these letters. She said that she committed all three letters with the intention of protecting, or all three murders, excuse me,

with the intention of protecting him. And at first, the investigators were like, yeah, right. I don't believe that at all. And they were also like, you're a respectable woman in town. I don't believe this. Like, I don't believe that you're not

or three people. That doesn't make sense. But then she sewed them. The soap and tea cakes made from Virginia's remains. And also showed them all the valuables that she'd stolen from all three women. And took them to the sludge pit behind the house where she disposed of liquefied body parts.

I have to go. And what she said to them in her written confession that she did. She wrote, I used to mix human blood with chocolate and add an exquisite flavor made of tangerine, anacid, vanilla, and cinnamon. Sometimes I added a sprinkling of powder from human bones. What the fuck? So the investigators were fucking horrified, but we're also like, uh, pretty open and shut case, I guess, and you just showed us literally every bit of evidence that we never would have found in confessed all of it. So she was immediately arrested and

taken to jail. You don't say. But because the war was raging across Europe at the time, all local prosecutions were temporarily on pause. So she was held in a jail cell until they were going to prosecute her. It was six years before she stood in front of a judge. Holy shit. That is me and Drew's entire relationship. Damn. Holy shit. Yeah, she was convicted of murder and sentenced to 30 years in prison. And during that time, her family,

including Giuseppe, completely disowned her. Yeah, like it doesn't. All turned there back on her. And they, they referred to her as basically a monster and they referred to her as the soap maker of Corregeo. I don't like that personally. And throughout her entire incarceration, she expressed no remorse, no regret.

She did what she had to do to protect her son and she wasn't gonna apologize for it. What? And she said it was completely worth it. To ensure that he was safe. No, she doubled down. That's the thing. So she's sitting there saying that she came forward and confessed when he was going to

be put on trial for it. But they don't align. Nothing aligns here with what she is saying. I think because she's just so mentally ill. They should have just been one sacrifice if that's what she was going with. You know what I mean? Yes, absolutely. You would have been that would satisfy her deluded in very sick beliefs.

Reasoning, yeah. But it didn't. No. And then you would think, okay, in her delusion, and her sickness. She didn't do it right, quote unquote. She didn't do it right, so she did this awful second thing. Yeah. But then that third one was completely senseless.

So she's very not aligned with any of this. Very petty, very, she's stealing from these women as she goes, which is not part of the whole thing. She's very clearly somebody who gets some kind of pleasure from murdering. That's the thing. So I think it's just, and then part of her was obsessive about her child

due to all the trauma and all the curse nonsense and all that. I do believe maybe it started off like that. I think she was a very, very, very, very sick and disturbed and unhelpable human being to be quite honest. And I think there was also a part of her that came from this tragedy and this trauma and it was in her somewhere. This monstrous way of being was in there somewhere. I think it's a little bit of like,

oh, where did that come from? That was lying dormant in there somewhere, because you can't just bring an axe on three different people and chop them up and make them into tea cakes and soap without having a little bit of something off in there that was always there to begin with. That's a couple screws loose.

My dude. Now, Leonardo died in prison on October 15th, 1970. Wow. Wow. Never answered any more questions that any authorities, reporters, anyone asked or wouldn't answer anything she did what she did. She told you why she did it. I have nothing else to say.

I have nothing else to say. I gave you all the information. I gave you all the evidence. I don't regret it. This is why I did it. She was like 90 when she died. And she lived long. Hold it.

That's her, that fortune teller. You're in a little long life, but it's gonna be sad. Do you know if she had lived your sepia? Or could you not find out? That I don't know. Actually, that's a very good question. Interesting. But I'm sure Giuseppe kind of faded into the back.

I don't think he wants to, you know, I'm not gonna go search him. No, no, no. But when it comes to the true murder, the true motive for the three murders of these poor women in Corregeo, of like Faustina Francesca in Virginia, I just wanna see their needs.

Yeah. We're not gonna know whether what the motive really what, there was no, I don't think they're really what. I think the motive started off with protecting Giuseppe and then I think she just didn't like. And then I think she just did her mind. And then I think she just did her mind. Yeah.

Because it's like even the stealing of the valuables, she was running her own shop at that point. You know, Rafael had a good job. They were stable. They weren't struggling. Well, it wasn't like she tried to sell the thing. She was well respected. She was, people came to her.

They came to her shop. It wasn't like she was, so she didn't need to do it. Like there wasn't even the robbery and like financial distress and all that. Like that. She just derived some pleasure from it. And probably like looked back on those items. And I think the fact that she was feeding the tea cakes

to people like that was for laughs. Well, that's the thing. That was the kicks. Give people tea cakes made with human remains and sell them bars of soap made from the fat and flesh of three murder victims. No. No.

For any other reason, then besides you wanted to do that and you got kicks from that. You pulled the wool over people's eyes. Exactly. You were like, oh my God, look, they don't need to be out there. They're washing with this and they have no idea. And then the whole like washing just, just that, just that you would the soap. Yeah, it's a fucking bonkers. And you can cheat the fucking tea gakes.

It's bonkers. It's on another level. I don't think we'll ever understand this. And I don't think we ever should. I don't think we should. I don't want to. No. It's a tale that just blew my fucking mind apart.

Yeah, my old fucking my. And that is the story of Leonardo Chenchuli, the soap maker of Corregio. Yeah, after this, we're watching Buffy and I have never needed a pal at cleanser more in my fucking life. Yeah. So holy shit. Yep. You just really sent me with that one. That's that was what I intended to do. So I'm glad. Wow. Well, we hope that you keep listening after that. And we hope you keep it.

Weird. But not so weird that you decide to protect your kid by murdering others and chopping them into bits and then making soap out of them because that is not weird. That is flopping in sanity. Whoa, what the fuck? I'm going to go to the next one. Hey, Prime Members! You can listen to Morvid, Early, and Add Free on Amazon Music.

Download the Amazon Music app today, or you can listen Add Free with Wondery Plus and Apple Podcasts. Before you go, tell us about yourself by completing a short survey at Wondery.com slash survey. plus an Apple podcast. Before you go, tell us about yourself by completing a short survey at Wondery.com slash survey.