Morbid - Episode 508: The Murders of Elisabeth Congdon and Velma Pietila

Episode Date: November 2, 2023

In the early morning hours of June 27, 1977, the bodies of millionaire Elisabeth Congdon and her nurse, Velma Pietila, were discovered murdered in Congdon’s 22-acre estate in Duluth, Minnesota. From the outset, local police were baffled as to the motive for the murders; Congdon was well liked in the community, and as far as anyone could tell, nothing significant seemed to be missing from the house.In time, detectives learned that Elisabeth’s daughter Marjorie Caldwell had a long history of financial problems and debt, had been institutionalized several times for antisocial behavior, and had recently been trying to get money from Elisabeth to buy a new home. Based on the evidence collected in the investigation, Marjorie and her husband Roger were arrested; however, at trial Marjorie was acquitted and Roger’s conviction was overturned by the supreme court five years later, so no one was ever truly held responsible for Congdon and Pietila’s murders.In the decades since, the murders of Elisabeth Congdon and Velma Pietila have faded into the background of Minnesota history—another tragic end to one of America’s twentieth-century aristocratic families. Yet, while Congdon and her nurse may be long gone, the memory and legacy of the Congdon murders remains a significant curiosity, especially to those who tour Glensheen, the 39-room mansion where Elisabeth Congdon lived her entire life, before it was brought to a shocking end allegedly by her own daughter. Thank you to the lovely David White, of Bring Me the Axe podcast, for research assistance :)Sources:Feichtinger, Gail. 2002. Will to Murder: The True Story Behind the Crimes and Trials Surrounding the Glensheen Killings. Duluth, MN: X-Communication Press.Johnson, Steve. 1977. "Killer reportedly stole Congdon gems." Minneapolis Star, June 30: 1.Johnson, Steve, and Walter Middlebrook. 1977. "Caldwell faces murder charges." Minneapolis Star, July 8: 1.Johnson, Steven. 1977. "Duluth nurse changed mind, missed murders." Minneapolis Star, June 28: 1.Kimball, Joe. 1978. "Brainerd picked as Caldwell trial site." Star Tribune, March 31: 1.—. 1978. "Caldwell defense challenges attorney." Star Tribune, May 25: 1.—. 1988. "Despair caught up with Roger Caldwell." Star Tribune, May 20: 1.—. 1978. "Jury finds Caldwell guilty of 2 murders." Star Tribune, July 9: 1.—. 1978. "Marjorie Caldwell indicted in deaths." Star Tribune, August 19: 1.—. 2007. "Marjorie's out." Star Tribune, June 15: B3.—. 1978. "Money called Caldwell motive in killings." Star Tribune, May 10: 18.Kimball, Joe, and Peg Meier. 1977. "Duluth dowager was 'regal, lonely woman'." Star Tribune, June 29: 1.Meier, Peg, and Joe Kimball. 1977. "Duluth woman, nurse slain." Star Tribune, June 28: 1.—. 1979. "Marjorie Caldwell acquitted of murders." Star Tribune, July 22: 1.Meier, Peg, Joe Kimball, and Neal Gendler. 1977. "Son-in-law investigated in Duluth slayings." Star Tribune, July 6: 1.Meir, Peg. 1979. "Prosecutor: Caldwell had mother killed to get money." Star Tribune, April 27: 1.Middlebrook, Walter. 1977. "Mrs. Caldwell's claim of attack doubted." Minneapolis Star, August 11: 1.Peterson, David. 1979. "Another year, same Caldwell defense." Minneapolis Star, June 28: 20.—. 1978. "Congdon murder trial goes to jury." Minneapolis Star, July 06: 1.—. 1978. "Defense focuses on Caldwell kin." Minneapolis Star, May 29: 1.State of Minnesota vs. Marjorie C. Hagen. 1985. CX-84-340 (Court of Appeals of Minnesota, January 22).Stone, Doug. 1978. "Supreme court releases data on Marjorie Caldwell." Star Tribune, July 26: 16.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

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memoirs. Experience it all with your membership and enjoy your first audiobook for free. Join and listen free for 30 days. Visit audible.ca Hey, weirdos. I'm Melina. I'm Ash. And this is morbid. It is guys we've officially wrapped up spooky season and now our regular theme song is back.

Happy November. We thought that would be fun to do for spooky season. Some people liked it. Some people didn't know. Kind of a toss up. We tried something out. Yeah. It was just her. It was just her regular music backwards. Yeah. It's like satanic. It was just like metal. Metal. You know. And scary. And we're back to regularly scheduled programming. It's weird right now to tell you guys

that I hope you have a fantastic Halloween because, like, or I hope that you had a fantastic Halloween because right now Halloween hasn't even happened yet. That's true. But by the time you listen to this, I think it will be over, right? I don't know how our schedule works ever to be there. Here's my transparent moment. I never know when an episode is coming out. So I just have to do them, like really far in advance. Exactly. Yeah. Okay, so if you're on Lundery Plus right right now then it has not been Halloween yet. But you're, if you're not on Monday Re plus, happy Halloween?

Happy Halloween. No post Halloween. Happy Halloween. Happy Halloween Halloween. Yep, there you go. And I hope you enjoyed our exorcist episode. Yeah, Rachel was great. She's wicked cool.

She was fascinating. And we don't have any entities that she saw attached to us so that's a win. I love hearing that. And we've had some really cool stuff. I love hearing that. I really liked that. Because when she described the entities, I was like,

I don't want that. Tell me I don't have what of those attached to me right now. I know when you asked, I was nervous. I wanted you to ask, but then I was like, what if she like fucks our world up, you know? And she's like, actually, I see one of the worst ones that she's like, you have everything. She's all the entities. I was scared. Sometimes it feels that way, but you know, we've had a good few weeks. We got to see our, our girlies, Corinne and Sabrina.

Yeah. Girls one ghost. We got to go to their show and see their lovely beautiful He uses human forms and we go for it, you know? And then we got to hang out with Tyler, aka Ghost Toney, and you're jealous. And he's the best. He is. We got to go to his book signing and we got to get brunch with him. It was wonderful. Also, really good brunch recommendation. Elaine is always giving the recommendation.

So I'm going to give her recommendation. Go to source and Cambridge. Oh, my mouth is watering right now. Just think about it. It was amazing. They have like, what did you, souffle, fun, fettie, chocolate pancakes, Alena got? Indeed.

I don't know the name of what I got, but it was a pasta dish. It was like a bucatini carbonara. Sounds great. Pasta with an egg on it was a pasta dish. It was like a bucatini carbonara. Sounds great. Pasta with an egg on it. It looked delicious. And the crispy potatoes are really good to share. They'll ruin you. In a good way. They'll ruin you for other potatoes. Yeah, I have the insanated ruin me, you know what I mean? But yeah, so those are happy news. A couple weeks. You know, Halloweeny things. Yeah. John and I went to a murder mystery party the other night.

Yeah, I didn't even get to tell Mikey about this. I gotta tell Mikey the whole shenanigans here right now, so go. It was a vote, I'm not gonna go into all the details. Tell him everything. Tell them everything. But I met some listeners there. Cool. And it was a fucking blast.

I highly recommend anybody go to a murder mystery themed party or dinner. It is so much fun. That sounds awesome. Everything was over the top. John got so into it. He was literally walking up to people and being like, so I heard that everyone thinks you're a shady bitch. What's going on? Like it was amazing. I love that. So good. But yeah, that was fun. Got me into the spooky spirit and yeah, I hope you guys are all spookified and Feeling in the season. Yeah, and I hope you're eating a pumpkin pie. Oh, I hope you're not. Oh, I love pumpkin pie Do not like I fight you. I'll fight you behind the gym Which one? Which gym the school gym. Okay, behind the gym, which one? Which gym?

The school gym. Oh gosh. All right. Well, what a great segue into something that has nothing to do with that. Waiting behind gyms. Yeah, I don't have any way to correlate that story. We're not good at segues.

And you know what, that's okay. I accept that about myself. We never have been good at segues. So why would I do it now? So why would we even start now? I'm not changing for anyone. I will never change. No, I hope I change a little bit.

I hope I continuously change. Forever, it's called Metamorphosis. That's a podcast for another day. If the light is on, then it is enough. So, we're enough. We're enough. That's just what I'm gonna say about things when I need to transition. The light is on, the light is on, the light is off.

The light is off, then it isn't on. Yeah, yeah. So I'm gonna talk about an ares today. An ares murder, unfortunately. We are bringing it back to some true crime. I know we were doing some paranormal use for a minute and don't think those are going anywhere baby because they are here to stay. We'll never get rid of them.

We'll never get rid of them. But we leaned in obviously for spooky season. But now I bring to you the murder of Elizabeth Congden. Okay, okay. So Elizabeth Manor in Congden, she was born April 22nd, 1894. Now before you leave, pump the brakes because she was born then, but her whole life goes down so we get to a place of modern. There you go, which is so different. Yeah. You know, but she was born April 22nd, 1894.

I know, in Duluth, Minnesota, to parents Chester Congden and Clara Bannister. Clara and Chester. Clara and Chester. Clara and Chester, C.C. What a cute little couple. Yes, Chester was a lawyer, and Clara was a school teacher. So they had moved to the area a few years earlier,

and when they did, Chester ended up buying a steak in this small mining operation in Misabi Iron Range, I think is how you say it? I'm still like Chester. Chester loves to buy small steaks and things. And you know what? Chester loves to not really think that he's gonna get a big ROI. Listen to me over here.

Oh, look at that. Finance boy. He didn't think he was gonna get much return on that, but the operation quickly started pulling huge amounts of iron ore from the earth. And that made Truster Conde and a very wealthy man. Look at him going in there being like, it's nothing. It's nothing.

This is whole thing, and then it's like boom, boom. That's like the best way to go into something. That is. It's like, no expectations. Hope for the best, but expect the worst. Yeah. Precisely. He was just like, I don't know what's going to happen, and then boom, he was rich.

It happened. So between his reputation as a lawyer and his income from the mining operation, Chester became a very well-known and even actually more well-respected figure in Minnesota politics, first through his philanthropic work. And then he became a member of the Minnesota House of Representatives. Wow. He's very well-respected. He sat on that seat from 1909. 1913. He was very well respected. He sat on that seat from 1909. He just sat on the seat. He was there. Yeah.

Every time they came in, they were like, why are you sitting on the seat? He was just there all that chair. Yeah. See what I did there? So his financial success did allow him to buy up large plots of land in and around Duluth, which included a large pile lot plot surrounded by... It's different from a plot. A palat.

A palat. Surrounded by birch and pine trees. It was beautiful. And Chester named the land and the house that sat upon it or would eventually sat upon it, seat on it. He named it Glenchien. Glenchien. Glenchien.

Glenchien. He named it. Oh, that's pretty. After the village in Surrey, England, but his family came. Oh, I like that. Glensheen. Now, Glensheen mansion ended up becoming a massive 39 room mansion. That was built from Vermont granite. The best.

And they decorated it with furnishings from Italy, Ireland, Germany, the Middle East. And by the time it was completed in 1908, it cost then about $854,000 to complete. So you're like, wow, a mansion? Like, that's a lot of money, but like, mansion, like 34 room, like, wild and out mansion, but then, are you ready?

I'm ready. Today, 28.5 million Whoa Lot of money, baby. Holy shit money bags. Wow But thanks to Chester's foresight, Glensheen was built with like future technologies and cultural tastes and mind The house was originally lit by gas, gas light But it was built with wiring so that everything could be modernized as soon as electric lighting was made available.

That's the foresight. That's called planning ahead with Chester. Wow. That's a forethought. A forethought. That's the forethought. And there was also plenty of space on the 22 acre estate to allow for the incorporation of tennis courts and more forms of entertainment

as they came along. Wow, they really were on it. They really were. And while Glenschean quickly became a popular gathering place for family, friends, and neighbors, actually Elizabeth and her siblings found the estate quote, stuffy and formal. They weren't like big fans of it.

They weren't into it when they were younger. Even without guests, the Cogned and Girls were expected to wear formal dresses to most Kongden girls were expected to wear formal dresses to most meals and the boys were to wear ticsitos. So I could kind of see why they were like, all right, this is a lot. Now, when they were away from the formality of parties and meals with their parents, Elizabeth and her siblings entertained each other on the massive estate. They would play hide and seek. There was like so many hidden passageways and compartments, so they could easily hide.

Oh, that's cool. Very ready or not. Yes. They would go ice skating or play hockey on the creek in the winter, and sometimes they just go out and like explore the ground. So slowly but surely they started getting used to their new space. Yeah. And even though their dad was among Duluth's most prominent citizens,

both he and Clara and their mother were strict disciplinarians with very high expectations. So the Congden children, they were all really close with their parents. Okay. According to local historian, uh, Gail fetching her, I believe, say it. Yeah. Chester and Clara, quote, tried hard to spend time with each child individually. And Chester had a special way of getting

to know his children better. Each year, Chester took one child on a trip. Oh, wasn't that cool? I think that's a cool idea. It is. And just the fact that like, I mean, back then, for them to be thinking about like spending time alone with each child.

Yeah, like how important that was. Because you can fall into that like routine when you have multiple children of just like they all come together. Yeah. It's everything, like everything important that was. Because you can fall into that routine when you have multiple children of just like, they all come together. Yeah. Everything, like everything says a family, and it's sort of, but it is nice to have little moments

of one-on-one, yeah. Yeah, because kids need that. Yeah. But still, because of the time period, neither parent was like overly affectionate or super doating. Yeah. And all the conged and children were raised to be self-reliant, and one of the biggest things that was like was very important to the family was to give back to

the community whenever they could. Oh, that's nice. Yeah, it was like a staple. It was a particular lesson that Elizabeth would carry with her throughout her entire life. I have been doing a lot of writing, but recently I've been doing a lot of different kinds of writing. Writing I haven't been fully confident diving into yet. Taking a class with Aaron Sorkin on screenwriting on the Master Class app has been something that has really boosted my confidence in a world where I am a complete

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Go story. Go sound real. At least that's what I've always believed. Sure, odd things happen in my childhood bedroom, but ultimately, I shrugged it all off. That is, until a couple of years ago, when I discovered that every subsequent occupant of that house is convinced they've experienced something inexplicable too, including the most recent inhabitant who says she was visited at night by the ghost of a faceless woman. It just so happens that the alleged ghost haunted my childhood room might just be my wife's great grandmother, who was murdered in the house next door by two gunshots to the face. Ghost Story, a podcast about family secrets, overwhelming coincidence, and the things that come back to haunted us. Follow Ghost Story on the Wondry app, wherever you get your podcasts.

You can binge all episodes at free right now by joining Wondry Plus. MUSIC MUSIC MUSIC So like many of the nation's wealthiest families, once they were of an appropriate age, the Congden children were sent to some of the country's finest boarding schools.

Elizabeth and her sister spent their primary school years at Dana Hall, which is actually in Wellesley, Massachusetts, and it's very popular with American high society children. It sounds it. Dana Hall. Yeah, I was gonna say, you got to be somebody to go to Dana Hall. You got to be someone. So after graduating from Dana Hall in 1915, Elizabeth enrolled at Vassar College. She followed in the footsteps of her older sister Helen. But unfortunately, after just one semester at Vassar, Elizabeth was called home in the fall of 1916 because Chester actually died unexpectedly from a sudden attack of pleuricy, I believe is how you say it. Oh man. It's a condition where the lining of the lungs become like very severely inflamed.

Oh, that's terrifying. So sad and just like very sudden. Yeah. So Chester's obituary was published in actually a special edition of the Duluth Herald, and he was celebrated not only for his political achievements and supportive social causes, but also because he, quote, was a good man with sound instincts and large capacities for services.

So, like, he gave back to his community, like, good dude. Now, Chester's death obviously hit the family very, very hard, particularly Elizabeth, because she and her dad had been very close. Oh, that's sad. So, instead of going back to Vassar, I read it for an other day. Vassar, I read it for that. Vassar. Alizabeth decided that she was going to stay in Duluth, quote, feeling like it was her duty to remain at Glensheen and look after her mother. Oh. So she kind of like took on a role. That was so selfless.

Yeah, you know. Yeah. Now years earlier, Chester had established two trusts, one to provide for Clara and the children, and the other, quote, to provide and maintain for my wife and children a home, so long as any of them shall live, making it easy for any of my children who so may wish to occupy Glensheen. So he made sure that no matter what his family would be taking care of. If they want to live there, they get to live there. In simple terms, the second trust covered all of the operating costs of the massive estate as long as Clara and or one of the children was in the mansion. Okay. Which would be the case until Elizabeth's tragic death.

So the money that was left for Elizabeth by her father would allow her to live a life of luxury and really not have to worry about anything. Wow. She could have spent and spent and spent. She could never have spent it all. And never spent at all exactly. But her parents had stressed the importance of helping others, the whole time that she'd been growing up. So, Elizabeth actually ended up leading a life of service much like her parents did. Oh, I love that. Yeah. When she returned to Duluth,

she and her mother became super close. And she was said to be Clara's closest friend and companion until Clara passed away in 1950 at 96 years old. Oh, so they were just best friends for a year. Oh my God, and she lived a long time, Clara. She did, yeah. Now, outside of her familial obligations, Elizabeth became a dedicated volunteer with multiple organizations in Duluth. She offered up her time whenever she could.

She would donate like very sizable donations to a ton of organizations regularly. And after her mom passed, she filled her calendar with fund raisers and board meetings from for causes from the local library and her family's church to the St. Louis County Heritage and Art Center. And she also donated a lot to Lighthouse for the Blind, which is an advocacy group for the visually impaired. Wow. So she was just doing the damn thing, doing the damn thing, helping anybody whenever she could.

Wow. She might have been one of Duluth's wealthiest and most respected residents, but she actually shunned public attention and appreciation for her generosity. And she really just preferred to live a modest life that was more, you know, in keeping with her religious upbringing and life of service. She didn't want a lot of wreckage. She just wanted to do it and then do it quietly. Yeah, just go back to her life and do it. I love that. Yeah. Now when she went out in public, she dressed very simply and conservatively. And on occasions when she did wear jewelry, it was always very simple and elegant.

According to one of her close friends, Elizabeth liked to do things for people, but she was very natural. So basically saying like she got satisfaction from giving and not necessarily from being recognized for the gift for it, exactly. Which I think like that, that whole idea confuses some people.

Like some people cannot understand that. Yeah. And it's like if you're not looking for a big pat on the back about it, then it doesn't occur. And then people almost think that you are even if you're not necessarily. Exactly. So it's so weird.

It's still that way. But a lot of people get uncomfortable being praised for what they do. And that was Elizabeth. She didn't want the attention, not because A lot of people get uncomfortable being praised for what they do. And that was Elizabeth. She didn't want the attention, not because not really for any other reason, other than they just need her uncomfortable. Yeah, like some people just want to do the nice thing and then just have it done.

And not looking for the pat on the back about it. They just want to do it. It's not about them. Yeah, exactly. And she was one of those people, but you're right. For better, man. Yeah, she's fucking, she's killing it. Killing it. I love Elizabeth. But all the time and attention Elizabeth gave to others

wasn't exactly without its costs. It often came at the expense of a romantic life. And the thing was it wasn't that there weren't, you know, suitable men interested in her. It was more that she felt like her time was better spent on other non-romantic pursuits. But there was one man that Elizabeth had maintained a close relationship to. According to her friends and family, this man, Fred Wolvin, had become or had been a close friend of Elizabeth's for many years, and she actually at one point accepted a marriage proposal from him, but eventually she returned to the ring and told him, quote, she didn't love him enough to spend the rest of her life with him.

Wow. Now, he was obviously heartbroken over the rejection and he never married. Wow. And when he died, he left all of his money to Elizabeth with instructions for her to buy a ring to commemorate their friendship. Oh my God. He just loved her, like purely. Wow. That's like the purest love I've ever heard of.

Like accepted the fact that she just wanted to be, I still wanted to be your friend and left all his money to her. Wow. It was just like, by a ring, to remember me by. That's a man right there. Yeah. Now, even though she got never, or excuse me,

even though she never got married. Remember she, she got never married. She got never married. And she didn't really make much time for a romantic relationship. She still loved children, and she refused to let her single status prevent her from having a family.

Oh yeah. Which was a really progressive and defiant position for the area. Yeah. In 1932, when she was 38 years old, she worked with an adoption agency in Greensboro, North Carolina to adopt a three-month-old baby girl that she ended up naming Marjorie Manering Congdon.

She told friends and family, I want to help her. I can give her a good home in schooling. And she is precious, that little girl. I know, she was a cute little baby. So those friends and family members suspected there was more to the adoption than Elizabeth Neuer was letting on. Her niece Mary Van Evera said, there was a kind of feeling that Marjorie was to be the answer to on Elizabeth's loneliness and her feelings of being unfulfilled as a single person. But that also made Marjorie sort of a toy. Okay. I think that's just an opinion. I mean, yeah. In my opinion, that's just an opinion. In my opinion, that is an opinion.

Now, three years later, Elizabeth would adopt another child this time from an unmarried couple in Chicago who just didn't have the resources to raise a baby. And she named her new daughter, Jennifer Susan Congden. And she really hoped that the two girls would get along as she and her siblings had. Yeah. Yeah, but Glenn, she in exploring the manner,

playing hide and go seek, all that, doing all that fun stuff. But unfortunately, she would eventually learn that these two girls had very different personalities and there was little chance of them ever becoming close. Oh, that's sad. Yeah, the differences between Marjorie and Jennifer became clear just actually a few years

into their adoption. Jennifer was really social, friendly. She liked to be around people. She was what people would refer to as an easy child. Okay. According to Gail fetching her, I believe it is, Jennifer had an outgoing bubbly personality that allowed her to make friends easily. She liked being around the other members of the family who would visit Glenshin and

generally enjoyed spending time with her mother. Marjorie, on the other hand, was introverted and preferred being alone with a book to being with other people. And she referred to her as a complex child to race. Okay. Which, again, opinion. Yeah.

Now at an early age though, Marjorie demonstrated a pretty strong will and she would become pretty difficult or volatile if she didn't get her way. She had a lot of tantrums. Elizabeth Snees Mary recalled that quote, Marjorie liked attention and she was bossy. As far back as Mary could remember, Marjorie had this need to be in charge when she was playing with other children. And she always wanted to have more toys or games than the other kids. Like, you know, yeah. When she didn't get her way, she would have a tantrum,

she would hit, she would kick, she would scream. And the tantrums and arguments really didn't happen in public, but it was clear to everybody that the problem wasn't entirely marjorie. Mary said of her aunt, Antelizabeth did have a difficult time being a single mother, and then elaborated that she also had a hard time imposing any boundaries or discipline with Marjorie. That's tough. She was kind of just this wild child that never really

was able to be tamed, and it doesn't sound like Elizabeth. I'm sure she probably wanted to change her in some way, but she was, it was hard. Exactly. I mean, even like, because you know kids do respond to boundaries. They do like boundaries. Absolutely. They know it or not consciously. They respond to boundaries and it helps them to be better and more contained and more in control of their own emotions and feelings and actions. But it's not easy. No. It's not easy to give like, people, some people find it easy and they find it easy to discipline and to, you know, put these boundaries out there.

Yeah. It's difficult. Like my kids are seven and four now. Right. And I still find it difficult to throw a boundary line there when you have to be like tough about it. You know, like, and that's in a two-parent household. I was gonna say, and I have the backup of John,

and it's like, but it's not easy. Just, because all you wanna do is just make it happy and just like, you just wanna see him happy. So when you have to, you know, put in a boundary or put in a big no, it's not easy. Well, then you add the fact that Marjory is an adopted child. And Elizabeth wanted to give her the best life possible. She doesn't want to have to discipline her all the time. You know, she wants to be like, okay, it's not easy. Some people find

it easy and share some people listening and find it easy and can't understand this side. And there's people who don can find it easy and can't understand this side. And this people who don't find it easy and can't understand the other side. So I think it's just one of those things that's like, exactly. You know, she obviously did not find it easy. She didn't. And the thing was some, certainly not all, but some of Marjorie's behavioral problems did stem from her insecurities about being adopted. She complained actually pretty often that her cousin's quote,

teased her about being illegitimate. Oh, and when she, yeah, we don't know if that really did happen. She's, that's just, that's something she said. And I don't know if that was true. Mm-hmm. And when she was older, she would tell people that the rest of the family never accepted her because she wasn't related by blood. She said, I never felt part of the family.

The animosity goes back to day one, which those are her feelings. That's her outlook on it. That's her, and that's the thing. That sounds very sad. It does. But Marjorie even took things like having to sit at the kids table during family events

as a slight directly related to her being adopted. It's like, no, I think it's just because you're a kid. And it's like, no, that's just how it goes. I just ended up the kid's people forever and I fucking hated it. But it wasn't because my mom was a single mom. It was like sliding me through the window. It's just like getting this. Now unlike her own upbringing where we know

service to others was really emphasized, Elizabeth actually lavished both of her girls with gifts, trips, and other extravagances because remember, she adopted these kids. She wants to, she's, I think she's doing more than the average person necessarily would. She's just excited because she's in the position to do so. Exactly. And she wants to, and again, it's very, it's hard. You want to see that smile on your kids face.

Yeah. I would give my kids the whole damn world if I could. You just want to make them happy. Well, and a lot of people, and it's a hard balance to it. Absolutely, and a lot of people say, like, I've heard even like you say this, and you want to, like, a great childhood, but you always want to give your kid more than what you had. Yeah, even if you did have a ton. Even if you had a great childhood, which it sounds like Elizabeth did, she wants to

not, you know, ratchet it up and on. Yeah. Do it even better. And I get it. So both girls took piano lessons. They practiced on the Steinway Grand Piano at Glensheen. And when it came time to shop for new clothes, this sounds amazing. I want this.

Representatives from the high-end stores would come out to the mansions with all the latest fashions and like trunks for the girls to try on. To not have to go anywhere? Oh my God, and just to have the latest and greatest of everything just brought to you. Oh. And try it on in the comfort of your own home.

Oh, that'd be great. And when they went out to friends' houses or into town, they were always driven by a show for. So they were living the life. They would live large. And actually actually for Jennifer, the money and attention made her uncomfortable. And she would kind of go out of her way to avoid being seen, like in the show for, or in the latest fashion. Yeah. She felt like it was a little too, like, ostentatious, ostentatious beautiful word. Thank you. Tendollas. But Marjorie embraced the lavish spending,

and that began a lifelong struggle with money, characterized by overspending, and an obsession with her mother's jewelry. Uh-oh. Jennifer set up her sister, she always had a spending problem. Even when she was little, she'd steal money from my mother's purse.

Ooh. Which like, when you're little and showing signs of that, that's not great. Not good. When she was older, Marjorie actually got into the habit of stealing her mother's credit cards and charging up huge bills at local stores,

but Elizabeth always paid those bills without imposing any consequences. Oh, no. Yeah. The older Marjorie got the more apparent her behavioral problems became. By the time she was enrolled at Dana Hall, like her mother had been, as a teenager, Elizabeth was regularly receiving calls and letters about Marjorie's bad behavior. She arranged for a minor rule breaking to straight

up physical violence. Oh, wow. In one instance, when a teacher insisted that, which this is an interesting instance, you might feel the same as me. A teacher insisted that Elizabeth needed help raising the children because she was a single parent. Marjorie got pissed and slapped the woman across the face. Okay, here's the thing. Yeah. Don't insult them all.

Violence isn't the answer. Never. Don't go around slapping people. Don't go around hitting people. It's never, it's never gonna, it's never coming from it. Trust me, there's many people in my life as an adult that I've wanted to whack across the face.

Oh, 100%. There's a few that I would love to write this second. Yep, same. But don't do it. It doesn't come, nothing comes good from it. But do I understand the feeling behind it? Yeah. Yeah, just don't act on it.

Yeah, don't talk about my mom. You feel the same way? And don't act like my mom, just because she's a single mother. Yeah, like, no. She's got, she's an adult. She knows what, like, I understand why she was pissed. Absolutely, I get it again. Don't act on it.

Don't go slap in people. No, but she told her mother in a letter, sent on Valentine's Day in 1949. I had never hated anyone so damn much in all my life. Wow. I mean, don't talk disrespectfully to her mom. Yeah, I guess she was riding for her mom. Firm in it.

At that moment, at least, because I have a feeling this isn't going to turn out well. Nope, which is really breaking my heart. I know. Because Elizabeth really seems like a cool chick. She is. This is a very, very tragic story. I mean, it's morbid.

Yeah. So over time, Marjorie's behavior got worse and worse and worse. She was lying compulsively, stealing more. She was overspending. And it was really just all too much for Elizabeth to deal with. And when she did recognize that she was in over her head, she took Marjorie to be evaluated at the Menager Clinic, which was a psychiatric treatment center in Topeka, Kansas.

It's Topeka, right? Topeka, yeah. The doctors considered her behavioral problems and her general disposition to actually be more serious than just teenage problems, and they diagnosed Marjorie as a sociopath, a person who ignores social and moral norms. Wow. Right then and there.

And the summer between her junior and senior year, she spent long stretches at the clinic, clinic where she did get inpatient care. And that's cool, but I'm glad that Elizabeth like took the right steps. Just the steps, yeah. Yeah, exactly. And that fall, Marjorie did not return to Dana Hall.

Instead, she was sent to a group home in St. Louis, and she finished out her senior year at a school which they then referred to as a school for disturbed children. Wow. So things got real very quickly. After graduation, she planned Marjorie to enroll in courses at St. Louis University,

but her plans changed suddenly after she met her soon-to-be husband, Dick Leibroy. Now, let's talk about Dick Leibroy a little bit. Talk about Dick. You know? When Dick Leibroy graduated from the University of Massachusetts in 1950, he had planned to go on to pursue a law degree. A UMass guy.

A UMass kid. But unfortunately, he didn't have a ton of money, and his lack of funds forced him to change his plans. And instead, he just accepted an offer from his brother to come to St. Louis, St. Louis and work with him in the insurance business. All right. So he hadn't lived there more than a couple months when he met Marjorie. He had stopped in for dinner at Mom and Pop Lippert's boarding house, which is where Marjorie was living at the time. So, okay. So they began dating not long after, and they bonded over their shared interests and values.

Dick recalled of their early days, she was so exuberant, so full of fun. They were both members of the Centenary Methodist Church, so most of their dating life revolved around the church and its associated activity groups. But interestingly, no matter how much time they spent together, it's kind of unclear how much Dick really did learn about Marjorie. There were definitely skeleton she was keeping in the closet from

lack of a better term. She told him that she was from an upper middle class family, which is an interesting way to describe that. That is very interesting. And it had been studying nursing at Washington University when they met. And when she had to visit the clinic in early 1951, she explained to Dick that she had some trouble in her teens and her overprotective mother had insisted that she visit the clinic.

So he didn't know anything about her diagnoses, which is her personal business to share with whomever she pleas us, but it's just a fact that he did not know. He did not know, exactly. And then in the winter of 1951, he and Marjorie became engaged, much to Elizabeth's displeasure. She was not happy about this. And it wasn't that she disapproved of Dick as a person.

It was just that she was concerned that Marjorie was rushing into marriage. Yeah. She was like, you just met this guy, like barely a year ago. Yeah. And I was really hoping that you would focus on your education instead of just getting married. Very modest. You know, classic parent worry. Yeah, absolutely.

And she was like, I think she was like right out of high school and this happened. So while Elizabeth wasn't thrilled at the idea of Marjorie getting married so soon, she actually couldn't have picked a better man for Marjorie to marry. Dick's family had been financially well off during the really early years of his life, but a series of unfortunate events actually led to a loss of their income. And so the Libro family had to get used to living without all the finer things. And given Marjorie's tendency to overspend and her general irresponsibility with money,

Elizabeth was like, okay, well maybe Dick's thriftiness will help balance out that impulsive part of Marjorie. Like, this could be good for her. Like maybe it will be a nice balance. Right. So Marjorie and Dick were married on June 30th, 1951 in a traditional Methodist ceremony, which was actually held in the large living room at Glenshean, and there was an audience of about 150 there. And then they went on a

two-week honeymoon and returned back to St. Louis St. Louis and eventually got a small apartment and Brentwood, Missouri. At first, things between Marjorie and Dick were wonderful. They were very much in the honeymoon state of things. All right. But it did and take long for Marjorie to slip back into her old habits. Uh-oh. A few months into the marriage, Dick was very surprised and confused when he started getting threatening phone calls from creditors, demanding that payments needed to be made for items and services that he didn't actually even know he had purchased.

That would be confusing. Yeah, and upsetting. Yeah. In one instance, he got a call from the local grocery store demanding a payment of $400. That Marjorie had recently charged to their account. According to Dick, whose monthly salary at the time was $260. Oh, no. That $400 was like the national debt to me.

Yeah. Because remember, this is in the 1950s. So I didn't do the conversions, but that's a lot of money today. And it's like his entire paycheck for two full months. Exactly, like more than even. So a few months later, while Elizabeth was visiting from Minnesota, Marjorie charged several thousand dollars

to Dix accounts at department stores around town. And when Dick confronted Marjorie about it, she blamed the charges on Elizabeth, saying that Elizabeth thought it would be easier to charge the things to Dick's credit cards than her own. So she wasn't from there. Which was not true. Like Elizabeth would not have done that.

And when they're going for that kind of very detailed and ridiculous lie, it's like, oh no, it's gotten real bad. Yeah, your grasp interest draws. And the explanation was obviously alignment to avoid consequences, but Elizabeth did end up sending the money to cover the charges anyway,

because she just didn't want Marjorie to be in trouble. You know, I think she's just trying to put band-aids everywhere she can. Exactly, and you get it. I mean, she's a mom. Yeah, she's just, and she's probably just trying to make it all go away. She is.

She's just living her lives. Stressing her out, and it's something that she wasn't necessarily expecting or used to. Yeah, which is like, is it the right choice? No, but not in Mar opinion. But, you know. But that's my opinion.

That's my opinion. That's from Housewives. So, Marjorie, the thing was, Marjorie's spending wasn't always on minor things, like clothes or jewelry. In the fall of 1951, she started visiting a local stable to see a horse that she'd been riding. And she told Dick that she had been renting, like renting the horse for her session.

But in truth, she had actually purchased this entire fucking horse from a breeder in Illinois and had been putting off payments by telling the breeder that she lost his address and thus didn't know where to send them. Wow. So she bought a whole last horse without buying a whole last horse

and then lied to her husband and the breeder about paying for it or buying it in the first place. Damn. Girl! Damn. That's a lot. It's getting wily. How are you going to explain a whole last horse? I have no idea. I myself have never bought a whole last horse, so... Me either. I wouldn't know the first thing about explaining that, me either. But as time went by, it was becoming clearer and clearer to Dick that his wife

hadn't exactly been honest with him about her life before they married. In addition to the reckless spending, he had never once seen her leave for any classes or study for nursing courses that she said she'd been taking when they met, confusing. He'd like that wasn't a thing. Yeah. And then there was the matter of her trips to the meninger clinic.

Marjorie had told Dick that she'd only received treatment at the clinic to appease her overprotective mother. But after talking about it with Elizabeth, Dick began to understand the full extent of Marjorie's mental illness and how it had manifested throughout her teen years. Yeah. So unfortunately, the picture of his wife

that was emerging in the months and years after their marriage only got bleaker and more challenging as time went on. Oh. Because really, she had started this with multiple lies. Yeah. She said, I come from an upper middle class family. That's not true.

But nope. She lied about her, why she had been to this clinic, which I can understand in the beginning of meeting someone, you don't want them to have preconceived notions about who you are. Yeah, before you marry someone, they need to know about your health. Yeah, you should at least let them in on some things here.

You know, yeah. And she was like, I'm a nurse, I'm like, I'm taking nursing. Of course, that's why. That was not true at all. So in May of 1952, Marjorie gave birth to the first of what would be the couple's seven children. Whoa.

It's seven bibbis. And the first was a boy that they named Peter. Peter, Peter. Peter's birth was quickly followed by another baby next year and yet another the year after that and so on and so forth. Unfortunately, the addition of the children to the Leroy family did nothing to curb Marjorie's compulsive behaviors, but it did give her seven new ways to manipulate Elizabeth into

sending money and spending on her grandkids. Jennifer set up her sister. Marjorie had no conception of money whatsoever. She always had to have the best and most expensive of everything. Mother would talk about Marjorie and the spending and she really didn't know how to stop it. So it was just getting out of control. It seems like just in over everyone's head. Big time. It turned out Elizabeth wasn't the only one who didn't know what to do about Margery's spending and compulsive lying. And no time at all, Dick was falling into the role of the buffer

between Margery and all these creditors. But when he insisted that he take charge of the finances, Marjorie would become abusive or manipulative. So he would eventually just back down. Because he's like, please, like, you're spending money that we don't have. Yeah. Like let me. We're in massive amounts of debt. Like, can I just have a go? Yeah, like just let me give a shot. Like you tried. Didn't work out. Like, let me try it. That's it. Like, I'll consult you. Yeah.

It makes you feel better, but clearly you can't manage this on your own. So we're union, but she, she would not allow that to happen. Now, despite their best efforts and intentions when it came to Marjorie, in reality, neither Dick nor Elizabeth would ever be able to manage her behavior.

And that became apparent in the late 1950s when Marjorie bought a $32,000 home near Lake Harriet in Minneapolis without ever consulting her husband. Oh, that's not good. She bought a $32,000 home then, which would be like spending $350,000 today and not consulting your partner. Wow. If I spent $350,000 without talking to Drew, I can't even fathom that. And that's not even a purchase to a whole last is proper. But a whole last home. Like what?

Whoops. What? And when she produced the contract for his signature, Dick was like, I'm not signing that. Like, no, it's a fucking way. So she scratched his name off the contract and bribed the realtor with $1,000 from an account that didn't exist.

Wow. Like, honestly, she was like a con artist. Yeah account that didn't exist. Wow. Like, she was, honestly, she was like a con artist. That's what it sounds like. And by the time anyone had realized what happened or that Marjorie had committed multiple acts of fraud, it was too late. The home sale had gone through without, and the home sale had gone through

and getting out of the contract at that point would have cost more than the house itself. Wow. So she manipulated everybody. Look at everybody, everyone, at every step of the way. And just like she had done so many times before, Elizabeth came to the rescue and sent enough money to cover the cost

to avoid any upset. Oh my God. We gotta stop this lady. I know, I know. So just a few weeks, because nobody was stopping her, just a few weeks after purchasing the house, Marjorie insisted to dick that they needed to redecorate the entire place.

Oh, okay. So not only was she gonna buy a $350,000 property now, and you know, without consulting him at all, but then she was like, we also need a ton of money to redecorate the entire thing. Like, it's like renovations are expensive. Oh my god. Anytime you're degrading any room in your house, it's like, oh my god. Like the wow, wow. Yep. Wow. So as he had done before, Dick refused to spend the money on the interior decor and reminded his wife how much they already owed her mother

simply for buying this fucking house. Yeah. And a few weeks later, the family returned home from church to find their dog and the neighbor dog running loose throughout the house and all the living room furniture had been torn to shreds, which of course required them to redecorate. Wow.

Now, Marjorie insisted it was the dogs, the dogs who had destroyed the house, but Dick didn't have any proof, but always suspected it was Marjorie who had destroyed the furniture with a knife and blamed it on the dogs. Really? Yelp, he figured,

he thought that somehow she went in there and tore everything open. Because the dogs were just like running through the house like crazy. Yeah, probably making a mess. How did they like slit open multiple sofas and chairs and this, that and the other thing? Wow. Yeah, dogs are wily, but they're not, I mean, not that I've seen that they're that wily. They probably could, but I think he also knew that she wanted to re-decorate the house

and was going to do whatever she could to make it happen. Damn. Years later, he said, Marjorie was the last one out of the house. I confronted her. I knew she'd done it, but she swore up and down that she didn't do it. Oh, man. Yeah.

Imagine if she didn't, and it's just like the dogs just ripped open everything in the house. I know, because obviously there's no way of proving it, but yeah. Damn. I would put my money on Marjorie. I would also put my money on Marjorie.

But throughout the 1960s, Marjorie and Dick's marriage just continued and continued to deteriorate. No matter how much money was coming in from Dick's salary and eventually from a trust that Elizabeth set up, Marjorie seemed to always find ways to spend far more than they actually had. So eventually they did decide to go to couples counseling,

which was kind of a last-ditch effort to save the marriage. And it was during this period that a psychiatrist elaborated on Marjory's earlier diagnosis, saying that her biggest problem was promiscuity with money caused by a personality defect. And then another psychiatrist diagnosed her as borderline manic depressive, which now is known today as borderline personality disorder. So unfortunately, it doesn't seem like she was willing to accept any kind of help for the mental illness that she was experiencing, so it only got worse. And actually, one after they had finished a couple's therapy session, the therapist pulled Dick aside and told him, protect yourself, make sure you have a special fund,

Marjorie could wipe you out. Wow. Just because she had no intention to ever stop selling this money. She wasn't going to therapy and saying, like, this is what I'm doing and I need help stopping it. Yeah, and I want to. It was this is what I'm doing

and this is what I want to do. I'm dealing with it. Exactly deal with it. I'm Carrie Mulligan, the host of I Hear Fear, a new anthology series of terror. The stories in this podcast are things that people don't want to talk about when the sun's out and the world's supposed to make sense. But you and I know better, don't we?

We know that the best horror stories are the ones we tell each other in the dark, so turn off your lights and close your eyes. In each episode of Eye Hear Fear, you'll be treated to a new psychological thriller, a forest monster who lures teens into the woods and never lets them return. A line of beauty products that takes the search for youth to dark extremes. And an EDM party that turns deadly when the DJ takes over more than just the dance floor. Strap in, as these twisted stories and paranormal events take you on a suspenseful and thrilling ride.

I Hear Fear will introduce immersive horror and lead you straight into the heart of darkness. Follow I Hear Fear on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcast. You can listen to I Hear Fear early in Adfree right now by joining Wondery Plus. So by 1970, the excessive spending on lavish antiques, horses, properties, and other unnecessary expenses had all become way too much for Dick. The last straw came in the fall of 1970, when Marjorie took out a $20,000 loan to start a horse breeding program, which she was unable to get by telling the loan officer

that she would put up funds from her trust as collateral. Excuse me, I meant to say she was able to get by saying that she would put these funds up as collateral. But unbeknownst to the bank, those funds would not become available for several more years. So she was not going to be able to put them as collateral. Now, on October 31, 1970, Now, on October 31st, 1970, Halloween. How Halloween. Marjorie came home and found Dick waiting on the front steps with a bag packed for himself. Oh, wow.

He was done. She begged him not to leave. She promised that she'd be better about spending. But Dick was like, listen, we've done this before. We've had this conversation a myriad of times. I can't do this anymore. Yeah. And that night he moved into a motel until he was able to find permanent accommodations

for himself. And it probably took a while because she had fucked up his credit in a way beyond measure. Exactly. So in the weeks and months that followed, Marjory's attitude turned from regretful to confrontational and then eventually just completely vindictive. When it became clear that Dick was not gonna come back to her, she just started badmouthing him around town in front of the children,

trying to win their allegiance and turn them against their dad. And as the divorce proceedings unfolded, she did everything she could to keep the kids from Dick. She wouldn't allow him in the house. She would pretend that she forgot about scheduled visits. She would say that he had been physically abusive

to the point that she sought a restraining order, but no such restraining order existed. Oh wow. Like it was bad. Oh man. It became a very nasty divorce. Yeah. And in the years immediately following the divorce,

Dick actually ended up seeing very little of his kids because of all the nastiness. And all the while, Marjorie was continuing to excessively spend, she was charging countless items to service and services still to Dick's accounts around town without ever saying anything to him about. Wow. So the divorce was finalized in 1971, but that was hardly the end of Dick's relationship with Marjorie because for years afterwards, she spent a lot of time spreading rumors and lies about him to anyone who would listen

and she would constantly use the custody of the children to, as like a weapon. She was a weapon. She was terrible. And then there were other events like the Vandalization of his car in 1973 that unfortunately he couldn't prove but he was very convinced that Marjorie was responsible. Quite simply Marjorie's position was if Dick didn't want to be with her, she would do everything in her power to make his life miserable.

Damn, that's scary. It is. It's very scary. And the years after her divorce from Dick, her behavior continued to just spiral out of control. She was getting wilder and just more predictable with every outrageous act. In May of 1974, she actually was able to coerce Elizabeth into co-signing a loan for $345,000 back then. for $345,000 back then. Today, that would be like co-signing a loan for $2.1 million. Wow.

$2.1 million, listen, I don't think I love anybody that much to co-sign a loan for that. Holy shit. She said that the money was for renovations for her property. And at the time, Elizabeth was 80 years old and in declining health, which Marjorie was using to her advantage. And Marjorie eventually defaulted on the payments,

so the bank sued Elizabeth, which forced a civil suit where Marjorie, quote, admitted to obtaining her mother's signature by duress and under false pretenses. Oh, damn, this is so messy. Mm-hmm. She said she asked for her mother's signature in a moment where she was not of entirely sound mind. And Jennifer, set of the situation, Jennifer's the sister. Yeah. She said with mom when it came to Marjorie, I don't think she could say no. She was vulnerable and Marjorie was a con artist. Damn. Now later that same year, Elizabeth became quote unquote, mysteriously ill after a visit where Marjorie had been seen feeding her some homemade

marmalade. What the fuck? Test later showed that her system had an elevated level of meprobammy, which is a tranquilizer known for its high toxicity. This is terrifying.

So basically, people suspected that Marjorie had something to do with this poisoning because she was trying to get more money out of her mother. Like she wanted her inheritance. Wow. But they chose not to investigate the case, I think, because they would probably have a hard time proving it.

Yeah. And it would just be really messy in Elizabeth's final years of life. But from that point on, nurses and domestic staff were instructed to pay very close attention to Marjorie's interaction with Elizabeth when she visited. Now things only got worse the following year. In May of 1975, Marjorie was suspected of arson when her home on the Minnesota Wisconsin border caught fire and literally burned to the ground. What the fuck?

A few months later, she got angry with Tom Welch, the bank officer who managed her trust, and several people overheard her saying she was, quote, gonna take care of that bastard. What the fuck, like chill out. That's it, I'm like, Oh my God. A breather, eat a moon, eat a moon? Chill out. That's it. I'm like, God. A breather.

Eat a moon, though. Eat a moon, but expand people's money. Drink a seven up. Stop eating orca. Like, you got to calm down. Like, reel it in, sister. Jeez.

And she also allegedly made several calls to contacts in Chicago to arrange for a hit on Welch, her loan officer. What the fuck? Who managed her trust yet? Now, later that summer, she ended up moving to Colorado and was arrested not long after that on charges that she stole two cars from a Minnesota dealership

after purchasing the cars with bad checks. She's, she's so much. She's wilding out. I also don't understand how people maintain anger for that long. I don't know. Like getting so angry at someone to like take a hit out on them is like wild on every level, but it's also, but it's how that feels. But maintaining that level of rage for that long to go through so many steps of a process

is always very fascinating to me because I just don't have time for it. No, I'm here for a good time. I don't have time for that kind of rage. Like I get mad. Yeah, but it goes away pretty quick. Like I'm just too. I don't, I can't maintain it.

It's like how some people are really good at building a fire and maintaining it until like a bonfire. I'm not good at that. I'm not either. My fire dies out immediately too. I can barely start one. Yeah.

But yeah, I think she was just a very, very mentally ill woman who never sounds like. Because treatment was very much available to her. Yeah. People tried to make it available to her, but it doesn't look like she was. She wasn't accepted. She didn't want to.

So in the early months of 1976 movie, shortly after moving to Colorado, Marjorie ended up meeting another man named Roger Caldwell at a parents without partners meeting. Which, that's like the saddest thing ever. Parents without partners. I know, that's the name of that. Just burp my heart.

Like, I'm like, I love all of you. No, where Marjorie was described as brash and assertive, Roger was described by those who knew him as a soft spoken friendly and easy to approach kind of guy. By some, but others described him as a passive dreamer with delusions of grandeur. Okay. So those are two, two mixed reviews. Two different things. Yeah, he definitely has mixed reviews. Yeah, the three out of five. Yeah, I recommend. So he was a man who wanted or maybe even believed that he deserved has mixed reviews. Yeah, the three out of five, yeah. Recommend. So he was a man who wanted, or maybe even believed that he deserved everything he wanted, but was never really willing to put hard work in

to get whatever that was. So he noticed people. So he had that in common. Yeah, we know those people. Following his marriage in 1954, Roger had enrolled in a Lutheran college with plans of becoming a minister. But just one

year later he abandoned his studies and started working a series of menial jobs. He jumped from one job to the other and just dragged his wife along from one location to the next. But his original plan was to become a minister. And yeah, and then you just kind of like walked away from that. So in the years that followed, he and his wife would end up having three children, but even that didn't cause Roger to get himself together or settle on a career. And to add to the dysfunction since he got married, he had developed a drinking problem, which of course exacerbated the tensions and arguments with his wife.

Roger would promise to quit drinking, and he would even actually go to some AA meetings, but inevitably he'd start drinking again a few weeks later, and the cycle would continue to turn over. So eventually his wife Martha got tired of the financial insecurity and Roger's alcoholism and, you know, the things that came from that, like his temper. And in July of 1974, they ended up divorcing. So to Marjorie, Roger's difficult marriage and personal problems made him seem like a kindred spirit. Of course. So I've gone through all of that.

Of course. So rather than see his failures as the result of his own actions or in actions, Marjorie considered them just to both be black sheep, the black sheep's other families. It was them against the world and that made him so much more attractive. Oh man. It's been literally never turns out well when people are like, I'm just the black sheep and it's me against the world and it's this and the like, it's a very talk to you against the world. It's like that's not a great feeling.

No. So after just two months of dating, the two became engaged on St. Patti's Day in 1976 and they got married at a small ceremony at a hotel in Denver and none of Marjorie's family were in attendance. They were not invited. It didn't take long for Roger to notice certain undesirable qualities in his new life.

She seemed to spend far more money than she had. Wait, what? This is new. Crazy, I know. And she was always at odds with the bank and the manager of her trust. You know, the one that she had tried to call a head out on. And before that odds with someone, I would say that is the definition of the odds.

But before long, he started noticing other little things like his credit cards going missing. But whenever he would confront Marjorie about the issue, she would become aggressive or combative. And one instance, she did threaten to end her life over it. Wow, that's not cool. Never having been very assertive, Roger would just back down to Marjorie, who was more than comfortable dominating her husband. So her control over Roger became apparent, or more apparent, as their relationship progressed. Eventually, things got to the point where she literally chose his clothing for him. eventually things got to the point where she literally chose his clothing for him. Whoa, yeah. She decided what they did, where they went, and she manipulated him in other more consequential ways. For example, she knew that he was struggling to stay sober, and at a party

in the summer of 1976, she repeatedly offered him a drink because she told friends, I want to test his willpower. Oh, I don't like that was ominous. Like that's the most, you know that your husband is sober and you're trying to get him to drink because you're testing him. That's very, very nefarious. That is mean.

Yeah, that is very cruel. Evil that is dark-sided. That is dark-sided. Can you, like, not can you imagine, but like, what the fuck? No, like that's real. I could never do that to somebody. That's literally cruel.

That's what that is. That's, that's on another level. Yeah. That particular part of this story, like, really disturbed me. And there are others that are coming up that also particularly disturbed me. But while the man may have been different, Marjorie's marriage to Roger and folded almost exactly like her marriage had with Dick Leigh Roy. Almost from the start they were behind on all their bills,

their home mortgage, their car payments, the horse breeding fee, boarding fees, and other expenses, but that never stopped Marjorie from spending money on clothing, jewelry, anything else that she wanted to have. Of course. And Roger, meanwhile, was continuing to struggle with his alcoholism, and he was becoming increasingly aggressive when he drank. Now, by the end of 1976, they were actually both under investigation by the Colorado FBI for multiple instances of fraud related to bad checks that

they were writing. And the stables where they boarded their horses was threatening to sell those horses in order to recoup what they owed in months and months of unpaid fees. Casual. So the FBI was after them and the stable was like, we're getting ready for horses. So your horse is a go-and-bye-bye. Like, holy shit. Like, where is the, it's these kind of people that you're like, where is it? Where's the point that you say I gotta fix something? Like, I gotta, I gotta get this together. What is the moment?

Yeah. And at the same time, their payment on their newly purchased home, their brand new home, was almost due. And neither of them had the money to cover the amount. So foreclosure was a near certainty. Oh, man. Like, it was bad. So despite their obvious financial and increasingly legal problems, Marjorie and Roger just kept on spending kept on dreaming. They seemed like it'll help. Yeah. They talked about buying a new bigger house and starting a horse breeding and training program,

you know, absolutely. With the horses that they no longer had. Yeah, what would stop them, you know? You know, just the fact that it's everything. Yeah, it's the world. Yeah, and the problem, one of them, was that while she was still receiving money from her trust, most of the funds were going

to Marjorie's creditors because she owed still receiving money from her trust, most of the funds were going to Marjorie's creditors because she owed so much money, which left them almost nothing to spend for you. But still, Marjorie insisted they could make their dream of a horse farm come true. If only she could access the money that she was due to inherit upon her mother's credit. Oh, no.

Yep. So Roger Caldwell finally met his mother-in-law in late May of 1977 when he flew to Duluth to meet the managers of Marjory's trust on her behalf. Oh, okay. Hey, I have a meeting with the people who are in charge of the money that you're giving your daughter. Nice to meet you. That I've never met you. Wow. Wonderful. No, Roger had gone to the trustees with the request of an advance of $750,000. Then, so that he and Marjorie could build their horse ranch in Colorado. According to a letter he presented to the board, which was supposedly written by Marjorie's son's doctor at the National Asma Center, Rick Lee Roy, her son, had, quote, severe asthma

and cystic fibrosis, and his condition required him to live in a ranch type environment with lots of open space and cleaner. Okay. Now, in truth, Rick did not have cystic fibrosis. Wow. And the board would later learn that the letter was written by Marjorie and was a fraud.

That's so fucked up. Yeah. Like, you lie. That's so fucked up. You have a lot of this fucked up, but that's really fucked up. Number one Like you lie, that's so fucked up. You have a lot of this fucked up, but that's really fucked up. Number one, you're pretending to be a doctor, which that alone is like, man, what? Secondly, you're making up that your child has a horrible thing

that they don't have. Wow. Like, are you kind of manifest that that happens? That's the thing, like, don't put that shit into the user. So you can get your fucking horse farm. Yeah. That you can't pay for. Damn. But whether they suspected at the time or not that that letter was a fraud, they still refused their request. Yeah. And later it was confirmed that that was corral.

And just a few weeks later, things got even worse for Marjorie and Roger. The bank repossessed their cars. their checking accounts both had zero dollars in them because they had spent everything. And this is with Elizabeth along the way, like patching up her. At every step of the way. Every step of the way. Like, that's wild. Yeah, it was getting to the point where like her trust wasn't going to be.

Yeah, that's why the people were like, the managers were like, you can't continue to take all of this because it's running low. Yeah, they're going to be enough money. That's why the people were like, the managers were like, you can't continue to take all of this because it's running low. And creditors were all but beating down their door looking for payments that they weren't going to be able to make. But Marjorie just kept writing bad checks. Wow. Spending nearly $100,000 between the middle of May and the middle of June. Holy shit. Spend $100,000 in one month. That's impressive.

On everything from gas and food to jewelry and gas. What's the other thing she bought? Jewelry, let's see. Jewelry food, gas she loves. Oh, um, nay. I was just gonna say horses. Yeah, she bought a new horse. Nay, I was like, come on.

I was like, I was like, clothing, but I was like, no, she loves horses, you're right. Well, clothing, I'm sure it was on there too. But also about a new horse. Nay, with a bad check. Nay, yeah. So eventually things were just like they couldn't do anything. Yeah, they're checking accounts for zero that like this is a bad situation. So they decided, why don't

we make our way back to Duluth and figure things out? Oh. So by the time Marjorie and Roger arrived in Duluth, Elizabeth's health, remember she's in her 80s at this point, had declined considerably. She had suffered a stroke a few years earlier, so she had become partially paralyzed and was mostly confined to her bed. And she was also having difficulty speaking. So as a result, she required round-the-clock medical care, which was provided by an in-home nurse. Okay. A teen of them who would switch off ships and everything. Yeah. Now on the evening of June 26th, 1977, Mildred Garview, I believe is how you say it, was thinking about the night that she had ahead of her

and she regretted her choice to work a double shift at Glensheen. It was just gonna be a long shift. Yeah, it was just a long time. Like all the nurses, she loved, Mildred loved Elizabeth and could have used the additional money, but working overnight and then straight through the next afternoon was a,

that's a fast hiring shift. So, and then to make matters worse, Elizabeth was expecting a visit from Marjorie that evening, which all the nurses knew, always made for a very tense or unpleasant experience. So, Mildred called her cowork-worker, 66-year-old Velma Piettila, and asked if she would be willing to cover her overnight shift. Like, she was like, well, you just do my overnight, and then I'll relieve you in the afternoon.

Yeah. Now, as one of the older nurses with the agency, Velma's husband really didn't like the idea of her working overnight alone in the huge mansion. Because it's huge. Oh my god. It's massive. Ooh, this thing, man. It's, wow. It's beautiful. It's like some bridge or chin shit. Literally.

Yeah. It's like bigger than some bridge and shit. But so he was like, you know, I really don't want you spending the night there. Yeah. Like that's just a lot. And, you know, he probably knew Marjorie was coming and he knew that was never good. She was. Yeah. So he's like, I really don't want you to, but despite

his objections, Velma did agree to cover Mildred shift. Now, the next morning, June 27th, Mildred arrived at Glensheen for her shift around 7am. So she was relieving Velma in the morning. Yeah. And Mildred, who had had her shift covered that morning, she ran into the cook, Prudence, who had also recently arrived and was getting ready to get breakfast together.

Now, Mildred had expected to be met by Velma, and she was surprised when Prudence said that she hadn't seen Velma or Elizabeth yet. Oh no. She was like, oh, you haven't seen them yet? Like, that's weird. So she started climbing the stairs that led to Elizabeth's room.

And Mildred was stopped abruptly on the stairs when she saw what appeared to be a pair of legs, laying motionless on the landing between the first and second floor. So she approached slowly and ended up discovering Velma Pietra sitting half on the window seat before the picture window. She even like propped up on the window scene. At first, Miljard was like, did she stop to rest or did she fall? She couldn't tell. She later told reporters, I thought to myself, Velma's resting.

But then I realized that was strange, not on the stairway. And Velma isn't the resting kind. Now as she got closer, the way in which Velma's body was twisted suggested that something was wrong. Oh no. And then, mildered noticed a large pool of blood that had crusted onto the carpet in front of Velma.

So her eyes darted from the floor back to her coworker, and that was when she finally realized that Velma's face was, quote, a rust-colored mask of dry blood. Oh my God. And it was that blood was appearing to come from a large gash in Velma's head. And she was not supposed to work. And she was the oldest nurse. The oldest nurse and her husband didn't want her to go.

Mm-hmm. Oh, like tragic. Trajic anyways. Oh, God. And then you add all of that onto it. It just adds layers. Now, on the floor in front of Velma's body was a bloody brass candlestick. At that moment, presumably the weapon

used to end Velma's life. And would later be confirmed. Holy shit. She was beaten with a brass candlestick. My God. So now fully panicked. It's a real riddle. Now she's only gotten halfway up the stairs.

There's still a second flight before she finds Elizabeth. And no, she's sitting there going, what the hell's going gotten halfway up the stairs. There's still a second flight before she finds Elizabeth. And no, she's sitting there going, what the hell's going on? Oh, yeah. So she's fully panicked, runs up the second flight of stairs and bursts into Elizabeth's room, obviously hoping to find the woman unharmed.

Inside, the room was in shambles. Dresser drawers had been pulled out and upended. Jewelry boxes had been emptied and thrown to the floor, and Elizabeth was lying face up on her bed with the sheets pulled back, and two satin pillows were covering her face. She'd been smudged. Oh my God! There was a large bruise on her left arm

like somebody had grabbed her tightly, and mildered notice that a gold watch and a diamond and sat fire ring that Elizabeth wore every day were missing. Oh, that's awful. Yeah. So she raced down the stairs and shouted for prudence the cook to call the police who ended up arriving a short time later. Now based on the way that the scene was discovered, Duluth Police Detective Ernest Graham's theorized that there was some kind of robbery and the murders had occurred sometime he believed at that point. Between 11 p.m. the previous night, in 7 a.m. that morning, one milgear

to arrive for her shift. Okay. Now, Graham suspected that the burglar had gotten into the house through a broken window. That investigator's discovered in the basement. And then they figured that whoever it was made their way up the stairs where they encountered and ultimately killed Vellma by bludgeoning her with a candle stick. That is brutal. So brutal. Gramps told reporters, she fell about seven steps to a landing, crawled or was placed atop a window seat and died there.

And then they said, are they theorized? From there, the killer made their way to Elizabeth's room where they easily killed the 83-year-old. 83 years old. She lived to 83, just giving, giving, giving, giving. And this is how she was. She was smothered in her bed and had her rings taken off her, like, and her bedroom was looted. And once this culprit had taken whatever jewelry was to be found in the bedroom, they said the killer stole Velma's two-door 1976 Ford Granada and fled the scene. That is fucked up.

So they stole a car too. Now, Dr. Volker, Volker Goldschmidt, the St. Louis, Louis County Medical Examiner, he arrived a few hours later and started his preliminary examination of the bodies. Now, he immediately noticed unusual elements of the scene as soon as he knelt beside Velma's body. First, there was a nylon stalking wrapped so tightly

around her left wrist that it had to be cut off. What? There were also, quote, tattoo-like puncture wounds on her face, forearm, and finger. But why they were there and what had caused them were a mystery. And this is Velma. This is Velma. Wow. In her bedroom, Dr. Goldschmidt discovered the nurse's log where almost all significant activity was routinely recorded. And the log indicated that Velma had started her shift around 11 p.m. just like

expected, and noted several times that she'd moved Elizabeth in the hours that followed. The final note was entered around 2.30 a.m. so based on the log, Dr. Goldschmitt narrowed the time of death somewhere between 2.30 a.m. and 7.00 a.m. That's good to have that. Yeah, great. So that's on its arctic, but it wasn't. Yeah, great. I don't know how to like we fucking evidence. Yeah, that's really nice. Hell yeah, really great for you. I don't know where that came from. I really meant yeah. Yeah, I really meant yeah, I really think later that afternoon, excuse me, when the bodies were transferred to

St. Luke's hospital, Dr. Goldschmidt was able to conduct the autopsy is at that point, and that confirmed what everybody already assumed. Velma's autopsy was conducted by assistant medical examiner, Dr. Stanley Irving, and he concluded that her cause of death was blunt force injury to the head and could have been the result of any

of the 23 wounds caused by blows from the candlestick. 23? Mm-hmm. She had been hit so many times 23 wounds caused by blows from the candlestick. 23. Mm-hmm. She had been hit so many times that her skull had fractured, quote, into four quadrants and broke her jaw on both sides. Oh my God. Yep.

Now, in addition to that, I mentioned small tap-to-like puncture wounds that she had, those were determined to have come from exposed nails on the bottom of one of her shoes. What the fuck? Meaning somebody had used her own shoe to beat her. What? Now, that was, it was never really discovered like what the nails in the bottom of her shoe were about. Oh my god. That's really the only info that we could find on that. But years later while preparing for the trial, this is interesting. Someone in the District Attorney's office noted that the photos taken at the scene and those taken during the autopsy showed that Velma's

watch stopped at 2.50 a.m. So they were able to realize that all that never actually happens. Like that's wild. It did. I don't know why. And maybe like in the fight. Yeah, in the fray. But however, that wasn't noted in 1977. So the time of death at the time remained somewhat between the hours of 2.30 and 7 a.m. Huh.

But once they got ready for the trial, they were able to narrow it. So Dr. Gulchmit conducted Elizabeth Saltoppsi. And he was accompanied by Duluth crime scene photographer Waller DeSanto. Among the first things he noticed were the number of bruises on Elizabeth's body. Despite having been partially paralyzed by her stroke, Dr. Gulchmit concluded that Elizabeth had very much attempted to fight off her killer. Oh, that's awful.

The best she could. And there were particular hemorrhaging, or hemorrhages off her killer. Oh, that's awful. The best she could. And there were particular hemorrhaging, or hemorrhages in her eyes. And that and the coloring of her head, neck, and upper torso, indicated that obviously the cause of death was suffocation. Yeah. There were also constriction marks on her finger

and left wrist, which indicated that the jewelry had been removed from her body after she had died, which is just to think that somebody smothered her and then took her jewelry off of her dead body, is just beyond. But what, but they're obviously, like they're obviously piece of shit cowards to begin with, but they kept the pillows over her face.

Yeah. Isn't that interesting? Because you know that it's, you should be fucking ashamed of yourself. Like you can't even bear to look at this one. Yeah, you can't the pillows over their face. Yeah. Isn't that interesting? Because you know that it's you should be fucking ashamed of yourself. Like you can't even bear to look at it. Yeah, it's also just so, so fucked up. Yeah, it's, it adds a layer of just. Yeah.

Oh, so back at Glinchina, large number of officers obviously had been assigned to guard the crime scene while technicians were making their way through the massive estate. I can't imagine having that be your job. And obviously, you want to find out who murdered these two women. And this is a big job. Yeah. So the obvious assumption was that both women had been killed during the commission of a robbery.

And actually, it wouldn't be the first time that a home like Glensheen was robbed in the area. Seven years earlier, Elizabeth's sister and law actually Dorothy had shot and killed a 17-year-old intruder who had tried to break into her home not far from Glensheen. Oh, damn. Grims told the press of the current situation, and Empty Jewelry box was on the floor, and the room was ransacked. So he was indicating that investigators strongly suspected a robbery gun. Yeah. But unfortunately, aside from the missing jewelry and broken basement window, the crime scene wasn't giving any further clues.

Damn. Now, during a canvas of nearby houses, multiple local children told police that they had seen a man they described as white thin with long hair and wearing a blue jean jacket in the area hours before the murder. So they had all seen him. And later that afternoon police were able to locate that man after briefly detaining and questioning him, though, it was determined that he had a valid reason for being on the property and it was unrelated.

Ah. Now Velma Stolencar, which investigators hoped would lead them to the killer, also turned out to be a little use. Later that afternoon, airport police found the keys to the Ford Grenada in one of the airport trash bins. What? Isn't that crazy? The fuck? And the car itself was later discovered in one of the airport parking lots, free of evidence or leads, aside from one single fingerprint discovered on the driver's window. That's it. Holy shit. And in the days that follow Duluth Police received calls from citizens reporting sightings of the stolen car, quote, between one in three a.m. on the morning

of the murder. But unfortunately, the colors, quote, weren't exactly sure where they remembered spotting the car. So it was just like, it's like not even super helpful. Isn't it wild that even back then, but especially now, you always get caught. Oh, yeah. Like no matter what, like you think like in this, on this giant, you know, in this whole country, you could hide a car or hide something. And how would anyone ever find it? It's like, yeah, you're going to get caught. It always get caught. you could hide a car or hide something. And how would anyone ever find it?

It's like, yeah, you're gonna get caught. You always get caught. They found the keys in an airport trash bin. You know how many fucking trash bins they probably had to look through? Wild. It's just always mind-boggling to me. And especially back then, what they were able to do.

Like, we're talking in the 70s. Yeah. Now, as detectives on the case got more and more frustrated about the limited amount of forensic evidence at the scene and the lack of any suspect who would want to kill these two women. Yeah. An interesting picture of Elizabeth's daughter, Marjorie was beginning to emerge.

You don't say. Yeah, isn't that crazy? When the Caldwell's attorney, because remember, she's a Caldwell now, when their attorney, David Arnold's Cald Marjorie, to let her know that her mother had been murdered, Marjorie reacted as one would expect in such a situation, sobbing and asking a series of relevant questions.

But as the conversation went on, the lawyer there noticed a change in her tone from hysterical to very business-like as she went through the checklist of things that needed to be done for the funeral. And then she insisted she would need him to wire her money for the expenses. Ah, there it is. Right back to money. Right on it. Now, just days of learning, after learning of her mother's murder, Marjorie put it in offer on a $300,000 ranch in Colorado.

Right. Which, um, struck investigators as strange. You know what? I'm glad that these idiots do these things. Yeah. Like, right off the bat, because it's like, thank you for just like showing us exactly who you are. But it's like, my God, like, what? Like, are you kidding?

Because remember, they had been in dire straits before her mother had been killed. And now suddenly she has $300,000 dollar stall for her. What's that about? Yeah. So investigators are like, hmm, that's weird. That's suspicious. That's suspicious. And later that afternoon during a conversation with Roger on the phone, Marjorie's cousin and executor of Elizabeth's estate, Tom Congdon, could hear Marjorie screaming at Roger in the background saying that her cousin's bill and Vera

Dunbar had, quote, arranged to kill her mother for the money. Wow. So now she's like screaming at her husband that her cousin did it to get money. Wow. And he was like, I'm just the executor of things. Yeah, you know what? No, I'm just out here. So in the morning of June 29th, Detective sat down to interview Marjorie and Roger

at the Duluth Police Station, because they were like, we'd like to ask you so many questions. So many questions. Now, Marjorie gave rambling and very contradictory answers to the investigators' questions, but detectives, as she was pulling that bullshit,

noticed that the top of Roger's right hand was swollen. Huh. And he had a cut on the right side of his lip. Shut up. Remember Elizabeth fought back. Oh, shut the fuck up. So when they asked how it happened, Roger couldn't give them an answer.

He didn't even try to. He just couldn't. He didn't even come up with a story. He was just like, he was just like, I don't know. That's why I don't know. He's like, I just woke up one day and my hand was full and my knee was split.

It happens. Now at the end of the interview, the detectives asked if they would be willing to take a polygraph test, like the rest of the family had volunteered to do. Yeah. And both of them declined. Oh, boy.

Now, while police were interviewing the couple, a separate set of investigators were searching their hotel room at the Duluth Rada Center, I believe, where they found a receipt dated June 27th from host of Minneapolis, a gift shop located in the airport. Imagine that. Wow, it's like guys, I mean, I'm glad they're this dumb. Wow. Damn.

Well, excuse me. I was going to say one. When detective spoke to the clerk at host of Minneapolis, they verified that a man matching Roger's description purchased a garment bag on the day of the murder. Now, days later, that same clerk would pick Roger out of a photo array and identify him as the man who purchased the bag. She's. Now, the receipt and verification from the clerk at the shop prompted investigators to

shift their focus from, you know, the burglary gone wrong theory to, huh, to the possibility that Roger and Marjorie there might be involved in the robbery and murder. It's like, huh, maybe inheritance is a thing here. Maybe. I'm like, you guys didn't fucking think that immediately. Come on, I'm like, hello? That wasn't on your radar.

Now, their suspicions were strengthened a couple days later when a hotel clerk in Colorado alerted them to an envelope addressed to Roger and post-marked June 27th from Duluth. So once they obtained a warrant, investigators opened the envelope and found that it contained a 1700-year-old Byzantine coin determined to be one of the antique coins stolen from a memorabilia case in Elizabeth's bedroom. Holy shit, at Glengene. So based on the mounting evidence against them, police executed a search warrant at the Caldwell home on July 5th. Oh, you don't say. And during the execution of that warrant,

they found the garment bag that had been bought at host of Minneapolis in the airport. My God, they're just like here it is. Here it literally is, along with several items known to have been stolen from Glungine, including a plastic pantyhose container that had been filled with jewelry stolen from Elizabeth's bedroom. Wow. Uh-huh. And they're just going to sleep.

Just just with the wing that. I'm like, you know, just, no, I just, I can't. I can't at all. The evidence collected at the house proved to be sufficient for a warrant for Rogers arrest. And later that night, just after midnight, Roger Caldwell was arrested for the murders of Elizabeth Congdon and Velma Piatilla. Good.

Piatless, excuse me. Now on July 8th, 1977, Roger Caldwell appeared in a St. Louis, St. Louis County court, where he was arranged on two counts of first-degree murder. Now meanwhile, Marjorie, who hadn't been charged with anything just yet, hired Minneapolis criminal attorney Ronald Meshbesher to present her during the proceedings. In a statement to the press, Meshbesher said that Marjorie was considering possible lawsuits against investigating authorities and the press. Whoa!

He explained the press coverage in many cases has concerned her. They paint a grim picture of her alleged involvement in this matter. Oh, boy. And it's like, her mother stolen jewelry was in her home along with a 1,700-year-old coin. That's not a great look for her. Not a great look for her.

Now while her husband was being arraigned for the murders of her mother and Velma, Marjorie was in Minneapolis scheming for a way to get herself out of trouble. According to Meshbesher, Marjorie needed to stay in Minneapolis to care for her son who was, quote, suffering from a very serious asthmatic condition. Oh, we're still playing that kind of thing for that. I think you did have asthma. Yeah.

You just did an absisting fibrosis. No, he also explained that she may need to ultimately return to Colorado for the sake of his health. OK, outrun the police. Yes, but she might need to run away from you. They're going to come get you. Yeah. Now, whatever her reasons were for avoiding the press

and authorities, Marjorie wasn't entirely wrong about how she was being portrayed in news reports. As soon as reporters learned of the investigation into Roger and Marjorie, it didn't take long for them to dig up all of the information related to their criminal investigations, and remember those fraud charges. Oh, yeah. And there were also several family members, family members, family members, family members who confirmed reports of Marjorie's

a strangenment from the rest of the family. And they were all quick to add that Marjorie quote, felt alienated from the family for reasons that she created. Wow. Yeah. Uh-huh. Okay.

No, on July 14th, detectives in Colorado located a safety deposit deposit. I'm really losing it here. I was just deposit. The deposit. They located a safety deposit box at Colden State Bank opened by Roger on June 28th. Oh, the day after everything happened. Now, among the documents in the box detectives discovered a handwritten, notarized will dated

June 24th written by Marjorie, giving Roger her share of her grandfather's estate upon her mother's death. Whoa, assuming it was all legal, the document meant that in the event of Elizabeth Congdon's death, Roger Caldwell could receive roughly $2.5 million. Holy shit, how strange. That's really wacky.

That just a couple days before she died, you had the wherewithal to write that. Coincidences, coincidence, you know? That's the thing. Now given that it was dated just a few days before the murders were committed, Marjorie's handwritten will look to detectives like a very good motive for murder.

Sure did. Now, a month later on August 5th, Roger was indicted by a grand jury for the murders of Elizabeth and Velma. And among the strongest evidence and the indictment was the newly written will, which may have implicated Marjorie into the plot to murder her mother.

And probably by no coincidence, just a few days after Roger's appearance in court, Marjorie went to the Minnesota Police Department to report that a man, quote, dressed like a cop had attacked her with a razor at her son's apartment, telling her to stay away from Duluth and to not help her husband.

Okay. Marjorie said that she had seen the man before and she believed that he was a Duluth police detective. Wow. And she also claimed that the phone in her son's apartment where she was staying had been tapped and she had been followed by a man driving a lime green color

with a pointy front. Okay. So now she's basically trying to say like, you guys are intimidating me. Yeah. Which I don't know if that's true or not. Personally, I doubt it. Marjorie did have slashes on the left side of her face,

her left breast and her left shoulder. But the doctor who treated her wounds at Mercy Hospital told investigators that he believed they were self-inflicted. Eek. So yeah. Now on August 11, investigators released a statement about Marjorie's supposed attack telling the press, we have no reason at this time to believe that an assault was perpetrated on Ms. Cal called well as reported.

Now, the police were very vague in their responses, but a spokesperson for the department did explain that the cause had been unfounded, meaning that it had been investigated and was proven that the crime either did not happen or was not attempted. Oh, no. They said, why are you always doing that? Why exactly? That's the thing. Marjory's claims about being attacked

were very clearly an attempt to undermine the investigation into the murders and the public's faith in the Duluth police department. But as soon as she realized they didn't believe her story and that she could have been held accountable for making false reports, she told her lawyer to request that the investigation into her report be discontinued. She said, you know what, never mind. That happened,

but don't investigate it. Yeah, I don't know. No, don't do that. Curly pop. Don't do that. So Roger appeared in court again on February 27th, where he pleaded not guilty to both charges of, uh, charges of first degree murder and a trial date was set for early April. Now, due to the prominence of the case and the heavy coverage that it was getting in the press, the judge, Jack Lippmann, he ended up moving the trial from Duluth to Brainer, to Minnesota. And he explained the decision, saying,

the conged in name here has been known for, excuse me, the conged in name has been known here for a century. And then he noted the numerous street schools and other landmarks that were bearing the family's name and added that the familiar I can never say that. That's a hard one. It is could potentially prejudiced jurors. Okay. So he was like, you'll get an unfair trial. Yeah, like that won't be. That won't be sick for you. Yes. So in Brainerd, the child finally began on May 9th, 1978, with prosecutor John DeSanto summing up the case in his opening statements.

He told the jury, these murders were motivated crimes. And he said Roger was experiencing and the quote, almost unimaginable build up of financial pressures and believed that the money from the inheritance would solve all of his problems. Makes sense. Yep. And over the course of four weeks and testimony from 103 witnesses, the prosecution laid out their case against Roger, mainly focusing on the extent of his and Marjorie's financial problems, fraud, and incredible debt. The jury was also shown a large amount of forensic evidence, including fingerprints

and hair found in the house that matched Roger Caldwell. The jewelry found in Roger's possession, which was Elizabeth's, and had been stolen from her bedroom. It's pretty open and shut. And the will that had been written up by Marjorie just days before the murders. Yeah, it's not looking good. Taken together, DeSanto told the jury, that will was a carrot not too hard to swallow. It's like, what? OK. I don't know.

You're like, so you're saying. I was like, what exactly does that mean, sir? I'm not really sure. I don't know. Let's take it, though. Sure. So Rogers' defense attorney put carrots aside. Douglas Thompson just tried to undermine the state's case

by calling the key testimony given on behalf of the prosecution into question. For example, they said the cuts on Roger's hands and face that investigators believe to have been caused during the attack on Elizabeth could have come from anywhere. Yeah, of course. He didn't remember where. No, they could have come from anywhere. Again, who doesn't wake up with abrasions? Yeah, all the time. Do I wake up with random bruises? Yes. Do I wake up with a split lip unexplicably? No.

Never happened to me. So, Thompson argued that the small injury above Roger's lip was actually a cold sore, not a wound. Don't be rude, okay? Yeah. He's got a cold sore. Investigators were like, there's a difference between like a split lip and a cold sore, but okay.

Absolutely. Now, while much of his time was spent undermining the prosecution's argument, Thompson's primary tactic was to shift blame away from his client and toward Marjorie. In his cross-examination of the Cold Wells former attorney, David Arnold, Thompson kept a tight focus on the fact

that the vast majority of the financial problems were the result of margaries in Pulse of reckless spending. Mm-hmm. But the problem was that Marjorie had an alibi, which placed her in Colorado on the morning of the murders. Ooh, slippery Marjorie, slippery Marjorie, and the forensic evidence suggested that whoever had killed Velma and lifted her body onto the window seat would have required considerable strength. There you go. So while you may want to point the finger there at Marjorie, I think it might have been Roger who was there that morning. I think you might be right. So compared to the robust case presented

by the prosecution, Tomson's case was brief and pretty weak. Yeah. He just relied more on Marjorie's poor reputation and public speculation than on evidence of his actual clients' innocence. Yeah, he was like, don't pay attention any of that. Because it's like, that's great. Like, you're not wrong. Marjorie does have a pretty bad reputation,

but she's not on trial right now. Yeah, and her client is, and her like, everything isn't found at the crime scene. Exactly. Exactly. Now, closing arguments were presented on July 5th during which prosecutor John DeSanto addressed Thompson's attempt to deflect blame onto Marjorie. He told the jury that if Marjorie was involved at all, it was in creating the will,

which he called a desperate attempt to persuade Roger Caldwell to go to Duluth and commit murder. He reminded the jury though that this go to Duluth and commit murder. Ah. He reminded the jury, though, that this case was about the act of murder. And in that regard, the evidence pointed directly at Roger Caldwell. So the jury deliberated for three days before finally returning guilty verdicts

on both counts of first-degree murder. Yeah, guilty. Guilty? Guilty. When the verdict was read in the courtroom, Roger turned to the jury and said softly, you're wrong. Just turned to them and said you're wrong. And then I wish one of them just said, no, I'm not. Maybe they did. I didn't find that, but they may have incorrect.

Wrong. You're wrong. You are. But they just kept going back. And they just said, then the judge had to be like, okay, he's like, this isn't my very proud. So outside of the courtroom, John DeSanto's indicated to the press that while Rogers trial had come to an end, the case was far from concluded. He told them this was just the end of step one. And when asked if he intended to go after Marjorie next, he replied, probably, that's all I can say right now. Wow, that's casual.

I love the news. He's like, yeah, probably. Yeah, probably. I'll see how it all shakes out, you know. Now, two days later, on July 10th, Roger was sentenced to two consecutive life sentences with the murders of Elizabeth Congdon and Velma Pietla and sentenced to still water state prison to begin serving his sentence.

Bye, Roger. The next day, Marjorie was arrested on two counts of first degree murder and two counts of conspiracy to commit murder. I love that he just said probably, and then immediately it was like, and here you go. Now on August 18th, 1978, a grand jury was convened and Marjorie was indicted on two counts of aiding and abetting murder in the first degree and two counts of conspiracy to commit murder.

Bye. Bye, you would think. Oh, no. And the ind..., the prosecutor alleged that Marjorie, quote, coaxed her husband into killing her mother by signing over to him three days before the murder. Her interest in one of the trusts worth $2.6 million. With regard to Velma's murder, the prosecution argued that, quote, her death should have been foreseeable as a probable consequence of trying to kill Kongdon.

Oh, God, it's so awful. Like the, I mean, obviously Elizabeth murder is brutal and awful and tragic in its own way. Of course. And then, but like Velma was just like place wrong time. She was just collateral damage. It's like that is so tragic. Horrible.

But they said because like her death was foreseeable, a probable consequence. Absolutely. Marjorie should be held equally responsible. Yeah. And just like the previous case, the considerable media coverage presented a challenge in trying it. So Marjorie's case two was moved from St. Louis, St. Louis, to Dakota, county, and January. Okay. With the jury selection scheduled to begin in early of April 1979. Now, opening statements began on April 27th with John DeSanto telling the jury that Marjorie had convinced her husband to murder Elizabeth, her mother, in order to access her inheritance.

And in a case, closely resembling the one that he made against Roger Caldwell, DeSanto gave a detailed description of Marjorie's troubled and troubling financial history, And in a case, closely resembling the one that he made against Roger Caldwell, Desanto gave a detailed description of Marjory's troubled and troubling financial history, her fraud attempts, and he pointed specifically to a recent conversation she'd had with an acquaintance where she said, quote, the only way to get out of my financial troubles is my mother's death. Wow. Like girl.

Wow. is my mother's death. Wow, like girl, wow. First of all, who the fuck says that? In second of all, who the fuck says that and then acts out on it? And who hears that? And it's just like, well, I guess I'll go about my life now. Like, I'd be like, what the fuck? Luckily that person was like, hey, she's that thing.

Goodness. But given the amount of detailed information, the prosecutor had dug up related to Marjorie's fraud and financial problems, and the fact that a total of 167 witnesses were called, the trial dragged on for two and a half months. DeSanto's argument was exactly, or essentially the same that he had presented

against Roger Caldwell. She convinced her husband to murder her mom in exchange for a significant portion of her inheritance, then conspired to cover up her involvement with a series of lies and deceitful attempts to place the blame on Roger. Now for his part, Marjorie's defense attorney, Ronald Meshbesher, took a similar approach as to that of Roger's attorney, which like, I don't know why you would do that. But he suggested that the crime could have been committed by any one of the other family to that of Roger's attorney, which like, I don't know why you would do that. It just lost. Yeah, it didn't seem to work out.

But he suggested that the crime could have been committed by any one of the other family members who stood to inherit money from Elizabeth's estate. It's like, we're all of them in the same kind of dire straits that my dream was. Like, I mean, I know you got to do your job, but like, that was weak. Really?

Now, one of Meshmechers primary targets was Elizabeth's nephew, Thomas Kongden, also the executor of her well, who hired a private detective in the week's following Elizabeth's death. That was probably to find out who murdered her, in my opinion. Yeah, I would say so. Right. But Meshbeth's repeatedly reminded the jury, Ferman, who was the private detective, or one of his associates was conveniently nearby each time a piece of evidence appearing to incriminate the called wells was discovered by police. So basically he was trying to say that like Thomas or the private investigator was like planting. Yeah planting evidence and giving it to the to the investigators, but it's like

did they plant the evidence inside of Marjorie and Rogers' home? Yeah, exactly. And at the airport. That's the thing that kills them. I'm like, yeah, okay. And then they went and told the guy like point this specific man out in a line up. What a conspiracy theory. I don't think so. So essentially his approach to Marjorie's defense was just to create enough doubt in the minds of the jury that they simply couldn't find her guilty beyond a reasonable doubt. And it worked. Oh no! It worked. On July 21st, 1979 after just one day of deliberation, the jury returned verdicts of not guilty on all counts. I'm shocked. Isn't that crazy? When reporters asked one of the jurors why they voted to a quitch, she responded, oh, I'm not saying, but it was all Marge and Mr. Meshbesher.

Marge. Wow, just Marge, your girl. You know, Marge. Later, that same jury member called Marge Rie and asked her for an autograph for her mother. I'm sorry. What? The jury member called Marjorie and was like, Hey, my mom's a big fan. Can I get an autograph? I'm not sure what to say about that. What is there to be a fan of? I'm not sure.

So when asked whether the outcome in Marjorie's case called for a new trial for Roger, John DeSanto strongly disagreed and said, I think the jury said we didn't in Marjorie's case called for a new trial for Roger, John DeSanto strongly disagreed and said, I think the jury said we didn't prove Marjorie called well, did it. I have no doubt whatsoever that Marjorie called well is guilty. Wow. We couldn't prove it, but she's guilty.

Oh, that's awful. Yeah, but don't worry. The rest of her life was not great. Okay. But before we get there, on September 20th, 1979, a post-conviction relief hearing was held in Duluth, where Roger Caldwell sought a new trial based on a handwriting analysis that uncovered during Marjorie's trial, that could have influenced the outcome in his case.

On April 21st, 1980, after seriously considering the arguments, Judge Lippman determined that the evidence presented in Marjorie's trial wouldn't have swayed the jury in Roger's case, so his request for a new trial was declined. By, however, on appeal, the State Supreme Court disagreed with that judge and did overturn Roger's guilty verdict. What? Sighting the significance of questionable fingerprint evidence used to convict him.

Come on. Now, on September 1st, 1982, after serving more than five years in prison, Roger was released from still water, pending a new date for retrial of the case. Now, rather than go through the entire case again, DeSanto offered Roger a plea deal, where he would plead guilty to two counts of second-degree murder, and make a full confession in exchange for a sentence of time served. What?

So Roger agreed to the deal, but unfortunately his confession didn't offer any new insight into the murders or information that they could have used to go after Marjorie. So they both kind of got away with this. Now, six years later, on May 18, 1988, Roger actually ended up ending his own life at his childhood home in Pennsylvania. Oh, he'd been suffering from rheumatoid arthritis and alcoholism for many years,

which contributed significantly to his depression. And I don't know, maybe he was living with some guilt. Wow. But in the years following his release, he lived in constant fear of being re-incarcerated for the crime, and he struggled to maintain employment and any kind of independence because of that. Damn.

And something that was particularly difficult for him, he said, was that Marjorie completely abandoned him once he went to prison. Oh my God. And provided no financial support of any kind. Shit. He told a friend shortly before his death, it really offends me that she totally abandoned me.

It just isn't right. You don't treat people that way. As thickheaded and naive I was, it's clear she was always lying to me. Yeah. So she just, like, he potentially murdered her fucking mother. Like, personally, I believe he did holy shit. And then she just was like, thanks, bye. I am just after he went to prison for like five years.

Yeah, he was just like, oh, well, that's that. And didn't get anything that she had probably done. Holy shit. Allegedly. Now, after her acquittal, Marjorie resumed and ramped up her suspicious behavior, compulsive lying and fraud in ways that no one could have expected. Just after the trial, five of her seven children filed a civil lawsuit against her in an attempt

to disinherent her from her inheritance on the grounds that they had evidence of her involvement in the murders. Whoa. Now, the lawsuit was settled out of court in July 1983. I'm sure, yeah. So I don't know what happened with that. In March of 1981, Marjorie visited her friend Helen Hagen at the Twin Birch nursing home,

where she was seen feeding Helen just prior to leaving the facility. The next day, Helen slipped into a coma and died days later on March 30th. After Marjorie, or excuse me, after Helen's death, Marjorie started dating Helen's husband. Oh my God. Stop. Wally. And they eventually married in August, despite the fact that Marjorie was still legally married to Roger Caldwell. What the fuck? The next year, Marjorie and Wally's home in Mount Minnesota burned down under mysterious circumstances.

Now the second home to have burned down. After a lengthy investigation, Marjorie was arrested for the arson. And in January of 1984, a jury found her guilty of arson and insurance fraud for which she was sentenced to 21 months at the state women's prison in Minnesota. She appealed the verdict, arguing that the prosecutor

had insufficient evidence for her conviction, but the Minnesota court of appeals disagreed and they did uphold her conviction. Holy shit. So she was released in October of 1986 and she and her husband, Wally, that she had taken after her Helen's death. Yeah, they moved to Arizona, where she continued her pattern

of excessive and impulsive spending in fraud. Police there in Arizona, suspected Marjorie of being involved in several arson cases. And in October of 1992, she went to trial. On October 29, 1992, another jury convicted her of arson and sentenced her to 15 years in prison. What the fuck?

But before beginning her sentence, she was, she convinced the judge to allow her one day to return home and help her husband deal with their affairs. The next day, her husband was found dead in the couple's home. Shut up. And Marjorie was arrested for his murder. Oh my God! Unfortunately, the medical examiner determined the cause of death

to be a drug overdose and admitted that it could have been the result of suicide, so the murder charges were dropped. I'm sorry. How does this woman have all the shit happen around her? No one's connecting any dots. It's like they're trying, but she just keeps like skipping out on it. So she served her sentence for the Yarsons

that 15-year sentence. At the Arizona State Woman's Prison in Good Year, Arizona, but she was granted earned release on January 5th, 2005. So she did not serve her, no sentence. And after her release, she decided to remain in Tucson where she continued the pattern of behavior that plagued her for nearly her entire life,

including arrests for theft and fraud as recent as 2007. What? And that is the story of the murders of Elizabeth Conde and Vellma Piaittola and Marjorie. Wow. We just did a whole bunch of shit and like kind of got caught but never got held accountable. Wow. Yeah. That's unbelievable.

Isn't that a harrowing tale? That is a harrowing tale? That is a harrowing tale. She may have murdered one, two, three, four people and never spent time in prison for murder. Wow. Is that never one to prison for murder? I am just like, and may have killed four people, allegedly. Wow.

Fucking, what a tale. Wow. Harrowing. Damn. So there Fucking wild hairling. Damn. So there's that for our return from the paranormal. Okay. And poor Elizabeth, I know. And poor Velma, and poor Velma's husband.

Yeah, just like this. And poor Helen. Yeah. Like Roger called well, I don't know about him. They're just out there trying to do their best. Yeah, not Roger. Not Roger. I mean, Felmon. Felmon in Elizabeth, yeah.

And how long probably? Yeah. Just really, really tragic case. She was a dangerous woman. Yeah. Yeah. But we hope you keep listening. Yeah.

And we hope you keep it weird. But that's a really, you pull any kind of marjorie because marjorie is scary. Yeah, bye. Bye Hey, Prime members, you can listen to Morvid, Early, and Add Free on Amazon Music. Download the Amazon Music app today, or you can listen Add Free with Wondery Plus and Apple podcasts. Before you go, tell us about yourself by completing a short survey at Wondery.com slash survey.