Morbid - Episode 521: Velma Barfield

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Starting point is 00:02:16 Almost so close to being without. So close. She sent her test this morning and it had the faintest line. And she said, I'm going to be a little bit more patient. I almost without. Almost so close to being without. So close. She sent her test this morning and it had the faintest line. And I said, well, we're related anyway.

Starting point is 00:02:31 And we'll log it back to work. And I need to come in. I've done a good job. We isolated the hell out of me right away. I still don't know where I got COVID, by the way. I don't go anywhere. So there's that. But like you could, like we were saying, like with the stomach bug, you couldn, by the way. I don't go anywhere. So there's that. But like you could, like we were saying like

Starting point is 00:02:46 with the stomach bug, you couldn't even get enough like a Starbucks cup. I know, that's what I'm like, what the fuck? But the good news is no one else got it. Yeah, that's great. Like no one else got it. Don't don't. I think we're good at this point,

Starting point is 00:02:58 but I think no one else got it. We isolated the hell out of me right away. Smart. I thank goodness for John. Shout out to John. Shout out to John. shout out to John. Shout out to John. Shout out to John into my mother-in-law

Starting point is 00:03:08 for being the greatest people ever. Yeah, we love, cause God damn. I know, I felt so bad for you. I was in the pool. Am I all inclusive resort when you text me? And I was like, I sent you a little picture like, oh, that sucks. And I was like, yeah, I'm dying.

Starting point is 00:03:22 Yeah, I felt really bad. You were like, yeah, I just broke my 103 degree fever. I was like, oh, I'm drinking a peanut collada. Not relatable. Watching a lizard run by. Oh my God, there are so many cute little lizards in a rhubba. It's true.

Starting point is 00:03:36 Honeymoon. Herb is beautiful. Oh my God, it was so much fun. Take me back. Take me back. It was fun, but that was like the longest vacation. No, that was like one of the longest vacations I've ever going on.

Starting point is 00:03:48 And the first we've gone on in a long time. And it was amazing and like a lot of fun. But by the end of it, I think like we got there on Friday and I feel like by like Wednesday, Thursday, we were like, OK, I want to go home now. Yeah, I think like, all right. We're so chombo-dys. We are too.

Starting point is 00:04:02 Yeah. So it's like I can have a little bit of of it. Yeah, I'm like I want to be home in my pajamas on my couch with my kids. Yeah me too with my kids You're watching them on the cameras. Oh, yeah, cats are like cat kids I miss Remy and Freaklet and log and I really miss your kids. I know they missed you. Yeah, it was a wild week It was but I'm back. You're almost COVID-free. And here we are. So we're going to start off 2024 straws.

Starting point is 00:04:30 Yeah. Ending 2023 really strong. Yeah, for real. You know, you had COVID right around this time last year. Not last year. Was that two years ago? Yeah, I was like two years ago. Oh, God.

Starting point is 00:04:42 What is time? I think it was like 2021. Yeah. Oh, OK. Yeah, we got to break years ago. Oh God, what is time? I think it was like 2021. Yeah. Oh, okay. Yeah, we got it right. Oh yeah. You're right, you're right, you're right.

Starting point is 00:04:48 And it was around the same time. Yeah, around this time last year, you had that crazy stomach bug. And you couldn't do things. Oh yeah, I got the stomach bug on Thanksgiving. But we got to do Thanksgiving this year, which was nice. We did, I waited until I got it.

Starting point is 00:05:00 And that's what's even funnier is I waited only about a week after Thanksgiving together. So I really barely made it happen. But you know, apparently Thanksgiving is tough for me. But I don't know what it is. Well, I feel like you do a lot. Like you put a lot on your plate and it's at the end of the year where like your kids already probably brought home something nasty.

Starting point is 00:05:24 That's very true. So you run down and so I just get it all. And you attack you. You know, that's it. But I got to say, John, it's like the greatest human ever. Because you just kept the house running. Yeah. kept the kids running. Yeah. Like just they had their teeth were brushed. Their hair were brushed. That's the thing that like they were washed. They were washed. You posted that video, but I see it all the time of like millennial dads just like being like way more hands on than dads of past generations. Being parents instead of a babysitter.

Starting point is 00:05:54 Oh my God, I was just gonna say like, like just raising their kids instead of babysitting. Because he always hates when somebody would be like, oh, is dad babysitting? And he's like, I'm not babysitting my fucking kid. They're gone. They're dead. I'm raising them alongside this other human.

Starting point is 00:06:09 Drew said that the other day. He was like, I hate him. Like, dads will say that. No, that makes me want to have like five million babies. Yeah, that's a good thing. That is a good thing. But yeah, he's kept this whole shit afloat. So, shout out to John.

Starting point is 00:06:21 And you're so close. I'm so close. I can feel it. I feel great. Yeah, you look great. You. I can feel it. I feel I feel great Yeah, you look great. You don't even look bad. Yeah, I feel great So I'm really just waiting for that little little line to disappear. I do like your hospital socks I do have I do have grippy socks Yeah, they're straight up

Starting point is 00:06:44 I follow a lot. I slide. I can't have bare feet. I'm like walking around like that's fucked up. Disagree. Yeah, just in my own head, that's fucked up. I just hate what my toes feel like two bunch together. Nope, my toes can't touch.

Starting point is 00:07:02 But no, like no, thank you. I'm a free, free foot piece, but I have hardwood floors everywhere. And I will fall in a sock engine. It has happened before. So just like my kids need to have grippy socks. I need to have grippy socks. So, you know, here, grippy socks forever. But moving away from grippy socks, to someone, this is going to be like real depressing. I just want to put that out there like ahead of time. We're going to talk about Velma Barfield. Okay. She's a poisoner. She's an extreme poisoner. But my goodness, she has the most depressing life. She has the most depressing life. Oh, ever.

Starting point is 00:07:45 It's just, her like, welcome back. Yeah, welcome back. Welcome back. It's, but my, she was, she's cold as ice, that her, her, like her life just makes you be like, whoa. It's cold. Like nothing. Good was happening here.

Starting point is 00:08:03 At all. Like there's just no good. all. Like there's no good. Nothing. So it's really not good. I mean, it looks like she loved her kids and her kids seem to love her. And honestly, I feel very much for her kids. She has a son and a daughter.

Starting point is 00:08:20 They seem to love her. And I don't think they got the same person that did these things. So it's like I really feel for them because I'm sure they're still trying to reconcile that. Yeah, that's like a lot to adjust and that's a lot. And again, she has a really fucked up like childhood and she has a fucked up just life that you're just like damn. Like how were you handed so many bad cards? Damn.

Starting point is 00:08:45 But some of the bad cards she took on herself, so. All right, let's get into this. Let's talk about Velma. So when Velma Barfield's trial came in the late 70s, which trust me, we'll get to. The 70s. It was like late 70s, early 80s. It was the time in the United States when Americans were really just beginning to even deal or grapple with the concept of a serial killer at all. Like even a male serial killer, any serial killer,

Starting point is 00:09:11 never mind the idea that a woman could commit anything like that. And although women had been sentenced to death for murder before in the U.S., none had confessed to methodically killing multiple people in such a cold, blooded, callous way, and for such a seemingly trivial reason as Velma. Okay. So let's talk about who Velma is. Let's. Margie Velma Belard. Magi.

Starting point is 00:09:38 Was born October 29th, 1932 in Cumberland County, North Carolina. I think she's a Libra. She was... Oh, she was a Libra like Mikey. I think, right? On October 29th? 1932 in Converland County, North Carolina. I think she's a Libra. She was, oh, she was a Libra like Mikey. I think, right? I'm October 29th. Look at that. I'll double check, but I'm almost sure.

Starting point is 00:09:51 No, no, fuck me. I said that's a noir. Hold on, wait, don't tell me. What's after Libra? I know, just don't tell me for a second. I won't. I don't know. Where am I?

Starting point is 00:09:59 Mikey's just going, nope. She's over 29th. Oh, she's a scorpion. Oh, all right. Okay, there it is. Yeah. She was the second of nine children. Okay.

Starting point is 00:10:10 And her parents were lily and murphy ballard. Unfortunately, she had the displeasure of entering the world during the worst part of the Great Depression. So her early life was tough in many ways. Her father was a farmer, so the collapse of cotton prices hit him hard financially, very hard. And it became next to impossible for him to earn enough money to support his very

Starting point is 00:10:31 much growing family and also support his aging parents, which he had been doing for some time. So in 1935, he gave farming up and went to work for a logging company for a bit. And then he found work at a textile mill in Fayetteville. Now, in Velma's memoir, she wrote a memoir. She wrote, I was afraid of my daddy, even while still a small child. He had a violent temper, and none of us wanted to be around when he blew up. Oh wow.

Starting point is 00:10:57 According to Velma, nearly anything could set that temper off, no matter how little. And there was no way of knowing what or when it would happen. Like what was gonna happen and when it was gonna happen? No rhyme or reason. And she said, quote, he usually took out his anger on us kids as well as the Fiend furniture. That's so fucked up.

Starting point is 00:11:16 Which like, can you imagine being such a tiny little person to take your anger out on a small child? No. Or tiny person. Or even like on furniture in front of your kids like to create such a violent old guy. Well, the fuck that, like what are you doing? Just grow up.

Starting point is 00:11:30 Besides being an asshole, Murphy, who was not good at managing the family's finances even before the depression hit hard. Really? So that made things worse. He had a strong work ethic and wasn't afraid of a full day's work, but he also really wanted to impress

Starting point is 00:11:45 people. He was a keep up with the Joneses kind of guy and he would spend money on trivial things for himself instead of things the family needed. So he was already setting them up for failure as well. Even before the depression happened. A relative once said he bought what he wanted instead of what he needed. His pocketbook was always too small for his operation, if you know what I mean. So, Lily, the mother, would try to do whatever she could about Murphy's explosive anger and violence. She would try to, like, intervene, try to smooth things over to try

Starting point is 00:12:15 and stop him from reacting to everything with anger. And she would hide incidents or any accidents that happened that would lead him to abusing the kids. So if they had an accident like knock something over, she would be like, that was me. You know what I mean? Like she would just take it on. Now unfortunately, she was rarely successful. And Velma came to resent her mother for the way she tolerated and catered to her father, that what she thought was catering to her father. And for what she saw is failing to protect her children from his wrath, which obviously the times were very different.

Starting point is 00:12:49 That's tough. And honestly, it's like I can't imagine being in Velma in the children's place and I can't imagine being in Lily's place. No, it's impossible. One day when Velma was 12, she asked her mother, Mama, why do you put up with him? Why do you stay with him like this when she was 12?

Starting point is 00:13:05 Wow. And the answer, of course, was that Lily had nowhere else to go. Right. And she definitely didn't have the resources necessary to raise nine children by herself. And that was the story in a lot of these households that we come to, especially in this time period. It was just a matter of, I can't do this by myself.

Starting point is 00:13:22 I'm going to do it alone. But to Velma, who was 12, she thought that excuse was insufficient. She said, I'd sure find some place else to go. And I will too when I get older. Unfortunately, that's not true. Yeah. And it's one of those things where it's like,

Starting point is 00:13:36 you just don't have the life experience to know the position of your mom is in. Exactly. Of course not. You're 12. You're thinking of all these as terrible situation. You want to know. Why would you deal with it? And you can understand, you're 12, you look at it and have all these as terrible situation. Why would you deal with it?

Starting point is 00:13:47 And you can understand she's 12, she has no fucking clue how hard it is to do anything else. Yeah. You know, to get out of that situation. And then how dangerous it is. Right. Now, as a child, Velma sought to escape in school. And she was a very good student.

Starting point is 00:14:02 Oh, that's good. But she didn't do well being grouped in with many other children. She didn't do well with team things. Huh. Which I feel that as well. I saw the little living room you're either. I was like, same. Even though she was a good student,

Starting point is 00:14:14 the teachers would often kind of like chastise her or punish her for her boystressness and unruly behavior. Mm. And noted her tendency to have angry outbursts when things didn't go her way. Even as a young girl. Yeah. So she's learning, setting the groundwork.

Starting point is 00:14:30 Murphy is teaching her. When you don't get your way, you beat the shit out of the furniture or someone else around you. That's what you do. Use outbursts. So it's like, you teach your kids how to react and it's like, this is a perfect, you know?

Starting point is 00:14:42 And it's like also, who knows if it's like a genetic component there that she's just got anger and her blood that she's gonna have to figure out how to control or not. And Scorpios are fiery. There you go. So to make matters worse, many of Velma's classmates came from families that were much better off than her own. And this was made apparent to everyone because she would come to school in second hand clothing or handmade clothing. And she always brought a very small, very kind of sparse lunch with her. That's so sad.

Starting point is 00:15:09 And in order to try to minimize this bullying that she was facing, Velma started stealing coins from her father's pants pockets and using it to buy candy and other things for classmates to kind of like try to buy herself into like people liking her. Right. And it seemed to work a little bit,

Starting point is 00:15:28 but it's not a great way to find friends, I guess. She's not learning a lot of really great lessons here. Now, when she reached her teenage years, Velma started dating Thomas Burke, who was a boy she met at church, and he was a boy her father greatly disapproved of. Uh-oh. For the most part, they seem to, you know,

Starting point is 00:15:49 like just hang out, do some mundane activities, like drive around, go to the movies, like normal teenage stuff, but Velma often had a difficult time enjoying herself. She later said, as much as I like being with Thomas and going places with him, I was bothered by thoughts that I should be home instead.

Starting point is 00:16:06 I think Velma had like the weight of the world on her shoulders. I was like too young of an age. Probably depressed. She was thinking about too many problems because she was probably thinking about, like her brothers and sisters and you know,

Starting point is 00:16:20 what fathers and angry, scary guy and her mom. And she probably feels some kind of responsibility at a way too young of an age to be in the home to try to intercede things. That's just really tragic. [♪ OUTRO MUSIC PLAYING [♪ This show is sponsored by BetterHelp. It is the holiday season and one of my key rules

Starting point is 00:16:47 during the holiday time is that since I love giving gifts so much, I also love receiving them, I always give myself one gift for the holidays. And whether or not your family gives gifts during the holidays, you get to define how you give to yourself. And the holidays are a great time to start doing them. So whether it's by starting therapy, going easier on yourself during the tough moments, or treating yourself to a complete day of rest, remember to give yourself some love this holiday season. It's really important. And if you are thinking of starting therapy,

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Starting point is 00:19:14 No matter how unreasonable they were, she just didn't want to disappoint him, because you were scary. And her relationship with Thomas started to become a kind of a welcome escape from the violence at home. And you know, she had the violence at home and then the kind of challenging environment at school that she was still trying to navigate. And one evening about a year into their relationship, Thomas and Velma were driving home from a movie when he turned to her and said, Velma, let's get married. Random. Now immediately she panicked because she knew her father would lose his mind and would definitely not allow it and would probably react with violence if it was even brought up to him.

Starting point is 00:19:51 But the question caused her immediate anxiety and she was like, you know what, I enjoy being with Thomas. This is a nice escape. So she's like, you know what, I might not know if I love him or not, or I don't love him the way that he loves me, but I can't. It's a way I don't wanna do this. So a few days later while they were driving, Velma brought up the subject

Starting point is 00:20:14 and because she didn't immediately answer him. And she reminded Thomas that her father would definitely not approve. And this time, however, there were additional complications. Her father had found a new job and would be moving the entire family to Wade, which was about an hour away. Oh, okay.

Starting point is 00:20:29 And so Thomas said, then let's get married right away. So Thomas said, before your daddy leaves, let's just to lope. Now, although she wasn't exactly sure again, whether she really loved him or just the thought of, you know, losing him was upsetting her, she didn't want to lose him.

Starting point is 00:20:44 And she figured, you know, being up was upsetting her. She didn't want to lose him. And she figured, you know, being uprooted from her current life, no matter how distressing it is, would kind of stress her out more because she's going to use to this awful routine. So it's kind of like choosing the less of two, the less of two stresses. Exactly. But she ended up agreeing to his plan, and the two began making plans to run off and get married. On December 1st, 1949, Velma's friend Alvi Pender came by the house to pick her up for what she told her parents was going to be just a night out. Then the two of them picked up Thomas, and the three of them drove to nearby Dillon,

Starting point is 00:21:14 South Carolina, where Velma and Thomas were married, and Alvi was their witness. Okay. Once they were married, they returned to their respective homes and didn't say a word. They planned to spring the news on Lily and Murphy just before they moved. So they figured that that would mitigate, like, some of the negative reactions, but I don't know about that. Or it would probably just like, they would have less time. Yeah, so it takes it out on you. Yeah.

Starting point is 00:21:38 Now, that plan only lasted a little more than a day because Thomas convinced Velma that they needed to tell their parents, but the Thomas was like, we can't do this. Now, Velma decided to start with her mother. Smart. Hoping she could convince Lily to tell Murphy, but her mother was like, no. And she was essentially like, you did this, you tell them. Like, you decided.

Starting point is 00:21:58 I can't blame her. I'd be like, girl, you're a married woman now. Yeah, and she literally was like, you got married? That was your choice. That's to tell. That was your choice. So the next day, Valma told her father about the marriage and he reacted slightly as expected. He yelled, he threw things, he demanded they get the marriage

Starting point is 00:22:14 annulled, but then all of a sudden, he sat down, put his head in his hands, and started sobbing. What the fuck? This was obviously very unexpected. She had never seen her father sob. Very unnerving. And he was usually violent and angry.

Starting point is 00:22:30 So this was just not... She's like, what the fuck? So immediately, she felt overwhelming guilt. And she was like, I shouldn't have married Thomas. What the fuck did I do? And she actually never learned why he reacted that way. But she said, from that moment on, there was a drastic change what the fuck did I do? And she actually never learned why he reacted that way, but she said, from that moment on,

Starting point is 00:22:47 there was a drastic change in her and her father's relationship. I wonder if it was a moment of self-realization for him of like, it was so bad that she saw this as her ticket out and like, what did she see in the sky? That's exactly what I think. I think he divinely disapproved of this guy, which as we will find out,

Starting point is 00:23:05 Thomas sends up being not a great husband. And he violently disapproved of this guy. And so he's looking at this guy, like there's no fucking way in hell. You're gonna marry this guy and she goes and does it. Right. And he probably is sitting there, but like you said, being like,

Starting point is 00:23:20 she had no other option to get away from me. Like I drove for two days. But to marry this guy, who like, I know no other option to get away from me. Like, I drove for Teri's. But to marry this guy, who like, I know is not a good guy. It seems like it really was a moment of clarity. And it's like, I wonder if he was just like, what the fuck have I done? Like, I think I really do think that was a moment, which it's like, I'm glad it came,

Starting point is 00:23:38 but my God, dude, it came too late. Too little too late, dude. Like, it's like, and it also looks like, and, you know, like spoiler alert, later, it's like, and it also looks like, and you know, like spoiler alert, later it looks like Lily and Murphy end up really loving being grandparents. Like they fall really hard into the grandparent role. So I do wonder if this was the moment that Murphy just said fuck.

Starting point is 00:23:58 I got a trip I don't. And then his grandkids like really brought that like fatherly thing out in him. Right. Which you hear about that sometimes, where somebody's a fucking shit parent, and then they become a grandparent, and you're like, and the kid is like,

Starting point is 00:24:14 what the fuck? Why were you like this for me, but you're like, which is great that you're like this for my kids. But that's really hard. That's really hard. But I would have loved this. Yeah.

Starting point is 00:24:22 And obviously the side of you was there somewhere in there. So why didn't you give it to me? You know, like, but it's strange. It's a strange phenomenon. Family trauma. Yeah, exactly. But Velma wrote oddly enough, after that night, when I told daddy about my getting married,

Starting point is 00:24:38 he wasn't mean to me ever again. Wow. I just got chills. I know why. Is it not a wild one? Now, days later, Velma left her parents house to live with Thomas and his parents a few miles away. And finally, free of all the abuse, the violence that had basically dominated her life for 17 years.

Starting point is 00:24:57 Velma, you think, would feel relieved. But she couldn't shake the feeling that she had fucked up and she had hurt her family deeply. And she, that was what kept sticking to her, which I feel like I did something wrong. I hurt my family. Now, in retrospect, Velma remembers the first few years of her marriage to Thomas as, quote, the happiest years of her life. Okay. So there was good times.

Starting point is 00:25:20 Shortly after the wedding, they both dropped out of school. Thomas got a job at the cotton mill in nearby red springs, and they spent most of 1950 and early 1951 living with his parents. Things were generally good. That's great. Unfortunately, though, the job at the mill was tough. Thomas fucking hated it, so he ended up quitting in early 1951. They then moved in with Velma's oldest brother, all of,

Starting point is 00:25:44 and Thomas found work as a salesman with double cola bottling company. Now, Thomas's job with the cola company paid enough that they were able to actually get a house of their own, a small house of their own, a few months later, and soon after Velma became pregnant and gave birth to her son, Ronald, who they called Ronnie. On December 15, 1951, Ronnie. On December 15th, 1951.

Starting point is 00:26:05 And she later wrote about this, I was thrilled beyond words. I cried, I was so happy. Now, bless his heart, he was ugly, but I thought he was the prettiest baby I had ever seen. What the fuck, Velma? I was just gonna get ugly. I thought parents weren't even capable of realizing it.

Starting point is 00:26:20 I know, I was like, damn. I thought there was other people that realized that. Damn. But bless his heart. Yeah. He was ugly, but I thought he was's like, damn. I thought there was other people that realized that. Damn. But this is hard because you was ugly. You was ugly, but I thought he was the prettiest baby. And it's like maybe once then. Well, it's like, what did you?

Starting point is 00:26:31 Maybe he was just straight up the prettiest baby. Like, you thought he was. Damn, Velma. But two years later, Velma gave birth again on September 3rd, 1953, to a daughter. They named Kim. Cute. Now, in one, in the book we are gonna link on here,

Starting point is 00:26:46 the blood soap book, we, he refers to her as Pam, because she is referred to as Pam sometime. Is that a nickname for Kim? I don't know if it's for Kim. Oh, it's like why? It's not about a letter. But I'm thinking, tell me if I'm wrong, in the great Gatsby, doesn't she call her daughter Pammy at one point?

Starting point is 00:27:08 I think it was like a nickname of a German. I don't know if I'm making that up though, because I know her daughter wasn't named Pam, but I feel like she does call her Pammy, or maybe it's in another book that I read. I can't remember. I'm gonna look it up. I think back then it might have been like a,

Starting point is 00:27:23 like all you little cutie, like you little Pammy. Oh, really? I think, I don't know if I'm just, because she. I think back then it might have been like a like all you little cutie like you look really. I think I don't know if I'm just because the moment of delusion the blood so book is just like about this case So I don't know why he would refer to her and let's like she wrote about her in that way like when she refers to her as Kim Huh, that's the thing. It doesn't it's like Maybe like she started going by Yeah, I don't know I don't know. I don't really know. But I want to look it up because now I'm like am I delusional or is that a thing that I've heard before? I'm sure it it's a thing. I've

Starting point is 00:27:54 faith in you. Thank you. I'll interrupt you. This is me having faith in you. Oh wait, hold on. Oh you just filled in the rest for me. No, I don't know. You like no. I've never heard that but I don't doubt you. Yeah, I don't know. I thought I heard that at one point in life. I don't know. email me if I'm right. Wait, you know, let's see who, email me if I'm right. If I'm wrong, don't say anything. If I'm wrong, just shh. But yeah, she had a daughter named Kim who is referred to as Pam and some other sources. All right. At the time, the birth of a second child really only brought more joy into what was feeling

Starting point is 00:28:34 like a, all right, life at that point. I'm like, where did it all go? I know. Well, Velma later said, I loved my children. And somewhere in those first two or three years, I learned to love my husband. Hmm. Now, even though, even their relationship with Velma's parents, Lillian Murphy, like I children and somewhere in those first two or three years, I learned to love my husband. Now, even though even their relationship with Velma's parents, Lillian Murphy, like I said, had been better. And like I was saying before, both Lillian Murphy loved being grandparents. Yeah. The loved Ronnie and Kim. And it sounds like the relationship with Tom's,

Starting point is 00:29:00 Tom's his parents was good. It was great because they were living together. Yeah. So Velma didn't just love being a mother. She was by all accounts, very good at it. Wow. Ronnie, her son later said, I wouldn't say I was a mama's boy, but I was close to it. I really loved my mama to death. I, a real adoring type love.

Starting point is 00:29:19 Oh. Which breaks my heart for these kids. Because I'm like, they saw someone different than the rest of the world saw. And I don't want to ever like take that from them. No, no, no. I mean, like, it's like, and you can't.

Starting point is 00:29:34 Nobody could take that. Nobody could take that. Nobody could take that. Nobody could take that. Nobody could take that. Nobody could take that. Nobody could take that. Nobody could take that.

Starting point is 00:29:42 Nobody could take that. Nobody could take that. Nobody could take that. Nobody could take that. Nobody could take that. Nobody could take that what a mind fuck that is. That's always so interesting to me too. Like we've talked about murders before where like their family at home had no idea what was going on. Like their wife never knew, their husband never knew. And it's like, it's so interesting to me how you can hide that part of yourself from other people.

Starting point is 00:29:59 Come up and visualize pieces of you and give love. Or what you think, I don't even know. I don't know how to classify it. Cause it's like, I believe she loved her kids. Like from all accounts, they loved her and she seems to have loved them. So it's like, how do you compartmentalize like evil and love inside of you?

Starting point is 00:30:20 That's, I don't know, but people do think, people do it all the time. It's, well, it's even like Israel keys. Like he was one of the most terrifying people we've ever spoken about, but people do do thing. People do it all the time. It's even like Israel keys. Like he was one of the most terrifying people we've ever spoken about, but like loved his dog. Yeah. So much. So you are, because a lot of times you hear like,

Starting point is 00:30:34 oh, sociopath, not capable of whatsoever. But I don't know how true that is. Yeah, because he had strange, well, well, not every killer is a sociopath. That is true. That's the thing. So I think that's the, that's one of the issues is it gets, it gets to be a sociopath. That is true. That's the thing. So I think that's one of the issues, is it gets to be a blanket thing for everybody.

Starting point is 00:30:49 Like a term. And it's like, so there's so many variables in all of these cases. That's why even entering into this podcast in the beginning, I was unaware how many variables lie within each different case. Like you think, like I went in thinking like you're a psychopath every time you tell people you're a psychopath. That's it.

Starting point is 00:31:12 And it's like that is indeed the case in many cases, but it's like there's so many other things at work. It's fascinating and horrifying. Like it really is. It is an interesting study though, just like the psychology of it. I don't know if we'll ever fully grasp it. I think there's more to it than just science. There's a lot to it. This is a lot to it. Like, this is a perfect example because when you see how cold and callous she is about what she does. Yeah. It's really hard to reconcile this, the mother

Starting point is 00:31:42 in there. But I mean, I'm glad the kids got, you know, a loving mother, I suppose, out of that. But they didn't have an easy life. That's for sure. These kids did not have an easy childhood. They started to get bad with children at some point. And things started, you know, it was tough. They unraveled a bit. But again, like he, like Ronnie said, he loved his mother. And actually, on occasions where she had to be separated from her children for any kind of period of time, she said that she would feel physically ill

Starting point is 00:32:15 when she'd only be able to feel better once again when she was with them. Wow. And this became a bigger problem when Ronnie entered the first grade. And Velma took a job at a textile mill because she was working the overnight shift So there would always be someone home for the children So like Thomas would work the day shift She would go all night. She would work at night and he would come home

Starting point is 00:32:35 But then that means she probably missed out on a lot of seeing the kids because they're at school during the night Exactly now a few years later in 1962 Velma began having significant health problems and was eventually diagnosed with fibroid tumors on her uterus. Oh, wow. This caused intense pain. Anybody who's had to deal with that in heavy bleeding. Velma's doctor said they strongly recommended a hysterectomy to take care of this. And they said it was really the only way to eliminate the problem completely.

Starting point is 00:33:04 Her brother, John later, said after she had that hysterectomy seemed like she was never the same again. That's interesting. And later, Velma would acknowledge that this period was a major turning point in her life. I feel like I've heard that with other women too, that undergo hysterectomy. Well, the hormonal changes are significant. Fast, yeah. And after the surgery, the doctors warned her of this,

Starting point is 00:33:26 the hormonal changes that could very much be disruptive, but she said lately, like, there's no way to prepare for it. The shift in your moods and emotions and the weeks and months that followed. And she wrote later, I didn't know how to handle my nerves from my early childhood when anything upset me and made me nervous and afraid. All of that got worse after my hair's historic to me.

Starting point is 00:33:46 That's really sad. And I think that's part of the issue here is like she grew up in such a tumultuous and traumatic childhood that she's already got a lot to contend with. And then you throw hormonal violence. Wildness in there, just like that you can't control and can't even conceive of. I can't even imagine what that will do. Right. In fact, then they didn't have the medicine that could regulate that.

Starting point is 00:34:10 That's the other thing. That's the problem here. There wasn't a lot to do. And she found that her emotions were much stronger after the surgery. And she had a lot of intrusive negative thoughts. And they were being harder and harder to combat. And she said, I had hidden my feelings and kept so much inside me that I'd built up over the years.

Starting point is 00:34:29 As I got older, I still didn't know how to do anything about the anger and the guilt. In the 1960s, like we were just saying, talk therapy, as we know it today, was in its infancy to say the least. And mental and emotional health care was still a very taboo subject. It was, and this was particularly true for the average American housewife who, in the mid 1960s, it was a different kind of situation. They were undergoing a kind of identity crisis at this point because there was a huge

Starting point is 00:34:58 shift in the meanings and identities of women and mothers in Western culture. So without any professional help, or even just like a social network that she could turn to for any of these problems, she attempted to do what she had always done, which is just keep things to herself, push all the negative feelings down. Just great and hurry.

Starting point is 00:35:17 And just hope they go away. Right. And that's not gonna happen. Recipe for disaster. Yeah. And before long, her fluctuating moods and instability started taking a toll on her marriage, which by 1965 had already kind of hit a rough patch.

Starting point is 00:35:33 Yeah. Thomas's father had passed away, and he received some minor injuries in a car crash. Oh, wow. And as a result of the car crash, he had been in pain, so he had started drinking more than usual as a means of escape. Oh, no. This was soon exacerbated by him joining a civic organization

Starting point is 00:35:51 in which the members were also heavy drinkers. Belma said, as Thomas started to drink more, his whole personality changed. And that was probably really triggering for her from her child. Exactly. And now she's trying to protect the kids too from this old thing. She's become her mother who she resented so much. Exactly. It's a real, real cycle of sadness in this episode. It really is. Yeah. Now, already stressed out by her own issues going on and, you know, the emotional stuff,

Starting point is 00:36:18 the lingering effects of surgery, which she's still trying to get over. That's a massive surgery. Oh, yeah. Velma struggled to understand or even tolerate her husband at this point. Well, she had already had to learn to love him. Exactly. So having this happen was like, no,

Starting point is 00:36:33 not gonna unravel something. So their relationship was reduced to little more than her losing her patience and starting arguments with him and him drinking heavily and starting arguments back. Oh, fun. She said, we had so much good in the first years of our marriage that I couldn't accept the difference.

Starting point is 00:36:49 And that's the other thing. It's such a slap in the face, because it's like the beginning was so good. Right. And now it's just shit. And it seems like it happened like boom. It's like where did we be or off here? Yeah.

Starting point is 00:37:00 Now, Velma blamed, one thing we will find out about Velma, she's been through a lot. She's been dealt a lot of shitty cards. But Velma is one of those people that has trouble taking any kind of responsibility for her own stuff, too. She only blamed Thomas and his drinking for anything that was going on in that householder, that marriage. But she was also going, she had an explosive temper.

Starting point is 00:37:25 Yeah, like she, you know, I mean, it's not like they were, you know, getting along and then like, he started drinking and everything went south. It's like, you know, and obviously the hysterectomy happened and that's not her fault. That's her dealing with those hormonal, insid, you know, fluctuations. But when she's already going into it with an explosive temper,

Starting point is 00:37:44 in no patience, it's like this is all a recipe for disaster. you know, fluctuations, but when she's already going into it with an explosive temper, in no patience. It's like this is all a recipe for disaster. Big time. In the mid-1960s, they had fallen on hard times financially, and Velma started writing a number of bad checks that once discovered to be fraudulent, she was told she had to pay the money back. I always wonder why people think that's a good idea. They always go about checks. What is going to get caught? Always. Don't fuck with the bank.

Starting point is 00:38:11 It's a legitimate paper trail. Yeah. I think it gets physical paper. It's like you're not going to get away with that. In the end, it's just going to cost you more that you don't have. Exactly. And because it's just the desperation.

Starting point is 00:38:22 Yeah. Usually, and it's get me out of it, it's because it's just the desperation. Yeah. Usually, and it's, get me out of it. It's the mindset that a lot of these people have, which is fix it right now. Fix it now, deal with it later. Yeah. Like, I'm not going to, you know what I mean? I'm not going to try to come up with an actual plan.

Starting point is 00:38:37 I'm going to just get it out of my way right now. So the worst possible way to deal with it. I don't fucks with the bank. Don't do it, man. They're rough. To make matters worse, Thomas had a falling out at the cola company and impulsively quit his job. Oh, it's nothing lined up.

Starting point is 00:38:53 Yeah, which is bad. Bad. And it was several months before he found another job. So there was a big lack of time. So she was desperate. This was desperation time. Finally, and probably more importantly, Velma began having severe back pain in 1964, and it led to a doctor prescribing her pain-relieving

Starting point is 00:39:14 tablets, which Velma quickly grew addicted to. And God only knows what was in those back then. And I can tell you right now, this pill addiction that she has becomes the basis of a lot of her bad decision making. Really? By 1968, Velma and Thomas' relationship was just deteriorating. She was becoming increasingly reliant on pain medication for basic functioning, and he was retreating deeper into alcoholism. So this was just really sad.

Starting point is 00:39:45 And at the same time, the children are now teenagers. So they become more independent and kind of defiant at that time, and just defiant in a way that normal teenagers can do, especially teenagers in a home that's unstable. And it's that they're dealing with a lot. So the whole family dynamic was very strained. By then, Velma's personality had changed in a lot of ways.

Starting point is 00:40:07 And like her father, she was becoming much quicker to anger. I didn't read anything that said she was much quicker to anger with the children. Okay. It was Thomas. Yeah. She said anything that my husband would do to agitate me. She said the slightest inconvenience or the slightest anything she perceived as a slight or annoying, she would lose her mind.

Starting point is 00:40:33 And I guess the children would try to de-escalate the situations a lot and try to separate them. Wow. Ronnie, her son said, she wanted to stay in fight and yell. She was very combative. So that's even him saying like, this was a different person. Yeah. This was somebody who wanted to stay in fight and yell. She was very combative. So that's even him saying like, this was a different person.

Starting point is 00:40:46 Yeah. This was somebody who wanted to just fight. Now throughout the later part of the 1960s, Belma had done her best to try to fix things. She tried to get her Thomas into a rehab program. She actually checked him into one for drinking. What about you, girl? And I was, well, that's the thing she paid virtually

Starting point is 00:41:06 no attention to her own. Right. Physical and mental health. Right. She was kind of just, which, you don't know what that with a thought process there was, if she was in denial thinking she didn't have the issue, or she was just like, I'm gonna suck it up and deal with it,

Starting point is 00:41:20 but he needs to, let's get him fixed. Okay. I don't know which one that was. Who knows? I'm not Velma. No. Uh-uh, but he needs to let's get him fixed. Okay. I don't know which one that was. I'm not, I'm not Velma. No. Uh, but she really ignored her own. Well, and it seems like she already resented him so much and had so much against him that it's one of those things where it's like, he's the problem.

Starting point is 00:41:35 Well, that exactly. She, she has a, she has a nasty habit of blaming everybody else. And it seems like this is one of those things where Velma just said, well, he's the fucking problem. Right. Like once he's better, I'll be fine. Valma just said, well, he's the fucking problem. Right. Like, once he's better, I'll be fine. Yeah, everything will be fine. He's the problem.

Starting point is 00:41:48 And she, I'm sure, and this is just me guessing, but like, she would probably get irritated with him and that would lead her to using more in her own addiction. Exactly. Because it was the stress and the frustration all that. So maybe she figured if I get him taking care of them, I will have to do it all the time. Yeah. Now, by 1968, the stress and anxiety

Starting point is 00:42:05 she'd been pushing down for decades did finally come up, came to head. Oh no. She collapsed in her kitchen where the last thing she remembered was getting up to make breakfast for the kids. Wow. Thomas was too drunk to help her in this situation. Oh no.

Starting point is 00:42:22 And so it was Ronnie, her son, who had to call his grandfather, Murphy. Oh, wow. And Murphy drove Velma to the hospital. This is what I mean with like Lillian Murphy really turned around, turned around, and became like the lifeline here. But then they saw like look what, look what happened. Look what's happened because of everything, you know, like they're there in the same situation that we've been in.

Starting point is 00:42:44 Yeah. And it's worse. Yeah, it's know, like they're in the same situation that we've been in. Yeah. And it's worse. Yeah, it's just, it's such a cycle. Generational trauma is wild. It is. It's horrifying. Now, she ended up being admitted for what she would later be told was a nervous breakdown.

Starting point is 00:42:57 Wow. Velma remained in the hospital for observation and treatment for about a week. And then she was discharged with a prescription for tranquilizers. Oh no. And a strong recommendation that she seek mental health treatment and get professional help with her marital issues as well. Getting out of the hospital, she didn't take any of that advice. Mm-hmm. She basically the marriage just continued to disintegrate, she just kept on keeping on. And she turned to the tranquilizers now,

Starting point is 00:43:25 relying on them to make life more bearable. She said, I found I could cope better if I took it. And then not just one, I knew that two would be better than one. I could feel that. Now, as 1968 came to a close, there wasn't much of a relationship between Belman and Thomas left.

Starting point is 00:43:41 He was really losing a battle with alcoholism. It had consumed him so much that he ended up losing his job. He was unemployed for much of that year. And that just added more stress financially. And although he would try and occasionally get better, he would go short periods without drinking. Like it really never lasted long and he would fall right back into it. It takes your whole life. I can't imagine. I really can't. And the more Thomas drank, the stranger his behavior became. According to Jerry Blood, so the book I was talking about before,

Starting point is 00:44:17 he said, at times he would sit in the car in the carport, drunk, revving the engine at full speed, sometimes until the car ran out of gas. drunk, revving the engine at full speed, sometimes until the car ran out of gas. Strange. And when Velmer, one of the kids, would try to intervene, he would become physically or verbally abusive until passing out inside the house. So it's just awful. Yeah. It's just like an awful.

Starting point is 00:44:37 It's awful. Now by the winter of 1969, Thomas had managed to find work at the mill. The mill was his first job that he had the working, fucking hate. And he had to go back to it. Yeah. In this shape. Yeah.

Starting point is 00:44:50 And at first, Velmo was like, you know what? Maybe after so long, and after being unemployed for so long, maybe this is what's going to do it. It's going to snap him into like a routine. He's going to have to go to work. He's going to have to get it together. But she said having to go back to the mill was a real blow to his pride

Starting point is 00:45:06 and he seemed to drink even more. Now as that got worse, so did the fights that they seemed to have every single night. One evening in March, Thomas came home drunk and the inevitable fight happened. And Velma was telling her husband that she couldn't put up with her drinking in this fighting anymore.

Starting point is 00:45:23 And Thomas passed out on the couch and Velma packed a suitcase for herself and for Kim, her daughter, and they went to stay with her parents. Well, Ronnie, who is now almost an adult at this point, stayed behind because he told his mother someone needs to take care of Dad. Oh my God. So their whole family just got fractured.

Starting point is 00:45:41 And it's like these kids, too much responsibility. So much responsibility. And it's like these kids, too much responsibility. So much responsibility. And it's like, Ronnie just especially, because I don't, we don't find out a lot about Kim. Yeah. But I'm sure she was the same way, but we see that Ronnie, like, just loved his parents.

Starting point is 00:45:57 And you can tell that he just like wanted to be a good son. And like wanted them to be better. Like wanted to help them be better. Yeah, he just wanted to take care of them. He wanted to be a good son. What's so sad? Like, look at his mom is like, just wanted to take care of them. He wanted to be a good son. Like, look at his mom is like, someone needs to take care of dad. I will stay here to take care of him.

Starting point is 00:46:10 And it's like, you should not have to take care of your parents. I know. It just breaks my heart. It really breaks my heart. But like, what a good son. Yeah. And when Thomas came to the next morning, Ronnie told him about the whole thing.

Starting point is 00:46:22 Was like, yeah, do you remember any of this? And he was like, he was like, you know, mom left and is fully intending on divorcing you. So like you've really done it this time. You fucked up. And Ronnie blamed his father's drinking because he was like, this is your fault. And Thomas blamed Velma's pill addiction.

Starting point is 00:46:41 And he was nonetheless remorseful though. And he was like, I don't want this to happen. I this shouldn't be what ends everything. And he told the son, I want to get sober. I want to bring this family back together. Um, and he said like it was when you were younger. Like I wanted to be like that. And later that afternoon, Ronnie told his mother this, like what his father had said.

Starting point is 00:47:01 And everybody was very hopeful at this moment. So Velma came home. That's like the worst I know, the hope. Yeah. And for a few days, there was like a non-neasy, like chillness, like peace in the house. But everybody was probably so trepidacious. Yeah, and Thomas managed to make it about a week

Starting point is 00:47:19 without drinking. And Velma did her best to take her pills as directed, right? But then it was just too late. Too much damage had been done to the relationship, and honestly, neither of them knew how to fix it, and neither of them knew if they really wanted to fix it at this point. So after a couple of weeks, things in the house,

Starting point is 00:47:36 unfortunately, are returned right to the way they were before Velma left. And it was pretty clear to everybody that, you know, like it was clear to her that Thomas wasn't going to change. Thomas knew she wasn't going to change, and that marriage was over. Damn. Now several weeks later, on the weekend of April 19th, Ronnie and Kim decided to go, you

Starting point is 00:47:58 know, they needed to get away from their parents endless fighting, and this whole thing that had turned into. So they went to stay with Lily and Murphy. Wow. Grandparents for the weekends. What? You're there like, you know, I need to get away from that. So we're going to go to Lily and Murphy.

Starting point is 00:48:11 Yeah. Like super chill now. Exactly. And I'm like, damn, you should have known. But Velma was home alone that morning when Thomas stumbled in after getting off of work, clearly drunk. They exchanged like very, at this point, they were barely speaking to each other if they weren't fighting or like roommates. So they were like, just hello.

Starting point is 00:48:29 And Thomas sat down on the couch and lit a cigarette, but then he started passing out. So the lit cigarette was still in his mouth and Velma noticed that it fell out of his mouth and rolled down his shirt. So she ran to grab it before it burned a hole in him. And she basically yelled at him and was like, you know what? The girl you're doing.

Starting point is 00:48:47 And she literally said, burn yourself up for all I care. Like Jesus Christ. Right. She was just, she had enough. And so when she yelled this, Thomas woke up and he got off the couch and went into the bedroom where he lay down on the bed and went back to passing out. Now, Velmo was fucking frustrated at this point. So she left the house, went to her

Starting point is 00:49:05 parents' house and picked her mother up to take her out shopping for the afternoon. Later that afternoon, she came back to her house and she came in to find it filled with thick smoke. Oh, no. Couldn't find her husband. So she ran outside, just as Thomas's sister Francis happened to be driving by the house. And Velmo was shouting for her to call the fire department. The volunteer fire squad arrived minutes later, made their way through the house, and they hadn't been in there for more than a minute or two when they came out to get a stretcher.

Starting point is 00:49:36 They came back out and they were carrying Thomas on a stretcher. Velmo was begging them to tell her what the fuck happened, and she said, I kept bugging, but they wouldn't tell me anything. Inside, I knew he was already dead. Oh, God. Now, later that day, the fire inspector told Velma that Thomas had died from smoke inhalation. It appeared as though he had fallen asleep in bed

Starting point is 00:49:55 with a lit cigarette, but at some point, he must have woken up because it looked like he had tried to stomp on the rug trying to put the fire out. And according to the investigator, there was very little damage from the fire, only a small part of the mattress and the pile of clothes on the floor. And the floor underneath appeared to be ruined. But otherwise, everything was pretty much unharmed. The official cause of death was listed as smoking in bed.

Starting point is 00:50:19 And the case was closed. And they think like he was, you know, he was really drunk so he couldn't get out of the house. Right. Like, what a way to go. And Thomas's death was a tragedy. And it hit the family, the children and Velma really hard. And no matter what, this was not the outcome anyone was looking for, obviously. Now, in the month after Thomas's death,

Starting point is 00:50:41 Velma came to rely even more on the tranquilizers to get her through the day. The life insurance policy on Thomas barely covered the funeral or any of the other costs associated with his death. And that meant that Velma didn't have the luxury of taking any moment off from work to grief, go through any of it. He was still our husband. As much as that whole relationship had disintegrated and it was shit,

Starting point is 00:51:06 that's the father of your children. You were still living with him. You you hadn't divorced yet. Yeah, there's always some kind of love there. Sure. There's something there. There's something there, you know, in this, that's just a shock.

Starting point is 00:51:16 Yeah. And so Velma pushed herself to stay focused on work, which was at Belk's department store. Okay. And she'd been employed there for several years. And it gave her something to focus on at filter days. She was just really like moving forward. And she also liked it because she could take

Starting point is 00:51:33 rare moments aside to chat with her friend, Pauline Barfield, who worked in the store next to Velmas. And they had known each other for a while. They'd become very close, like Velma's closest friend. Very much her confidant and had on several occasions introduced, she had introduced Velma to her husband, Jennings. And like they were just like best friends, like she told her everything.

Starting point is 00:51:56 Now, just a few months after Thomas's death, Velma was dealt another blow when she received news that Pauline had died unexpectedly from a cerebral hemorrhage. Holy shit. It was a shock, a shock. Oh my God. Yeah. And it was even more of a shock because one of the things

Starting point is 00:52:15 that they always talked about was that Pauline's husband Jennings had been disabled by M. Fizima and diabetes. And they honestly thought he was the one that would mostly cast away first. So this was like a real shock. And it was probably equally surprising when Velma found herself in a full blown relationship with Jennings.

Starting point is 00:52:35 So I was gonna ask that because the bar field of it all. Yeah. What? That happens though. Like I've heard of that more often, like a lot, like a often, like a lot. Like I've heard of that a lot.

Starting point is 00:52:47 I don't understand it. I think it's some weird grief tie. Yeah, I would have thought the shit out of me. No, free tweet, my friends. Re-tweet, I would, I would poltergeist that shit all the way up. You're fucking lives. Oh, mark my words. Like, yeah.

Starting point is 00:53:08 Oh, I mean, that's true. It's just black and white for me. I'll ruin your fucking life. Even if it's not my best friend, you can't move on, sorry. Yeah. I'll become a demon. I'll become a demon specifically so I can ruin your life.

Starting point is 00:53:20 Yeah, exactly. So just know that. But isn't that strange? It is. It's a strange phenomenon that happened. I told the story like that recently. Yeah. I feel like I can't put my finger on exactly who it was.

Starting point is 00:53:29 But I have heard about like multiple times. Did it happen with Stevie Nicks? Yes, it did. Didn't she? It's like a chance to come to Jesus Christ. Yeah. My girly. Yeah, I mean, it's just, but that shows.

Starting point is 00:53:39 Like it's a strange phenomenon. It is. It really is. And I think I'll, I think a lot of it is typological. Oh, 100% it has to do with, because grief will fuck you up. Like grief changes a lot of things. Well, and if you think about it,

Starting point is 00:53:55 like you have a lot in common with your best friends. So I'm sure there are attributes that bring your partners, that like remind the partner who's still alive of the partner that passed and that brings you even closer. I mean, like, I don't understand it, but I'm not gonna say that I could understand it because thankfully, you know, knock knocks,

Starting point is 00:54:15 I've never been in that position to understand that. And again, we'd haunt them. So yeah, I would do it turning to a demon, remember? Yeah. I won't even be human anymore. No, I'm not. No, I'm not. She's a demon. Demon Elena.. I want to be human anymore. No, I'm not. It's just demon.

Starting point is 00:54:25 Demona Elena. So, that's right. Yeah. But, you know, yeah. So, yeah. And he's not a good health, though. So I'm like, velvety, you're kind of setting yourself up for some more heartbreak here.

Starting point is 00:54:37 Yeah, I don't think this is a great move. And spoiler alert, it's not. And honestly, this was just a couple of months after Pauline's death. They began a relationship. And that's usually what you hear. Like, I always like, right then. And it's like, I don't get it, man. But like, you do you.

Starting point is 00:54:55 But she found herself, you know, liking the attention. It gave her something else to focus on besides, like we were just saying the constant death in her life and the addiction that surrounded everything. And she later wrote the kids. They didn't need me the way they had when they were young. I was grateful that he wanted to take me out. It made me feel good. It's that sad. Yeah, of course. That's absolutely. But after dating only a few months, Jennings surprised Valma again, one one dinner, one evening at dinner, he asked her to marry him. This was only after dating a few months. And after his wife has just had, I don't think that's very impulsive. I think it's very impulsive. I think any therapist would be like, I think we should talk this for a little longer. Well, and she said, I agreed to marry Jennings

Starting point is 00:55:41 Barfield, even though I wasn't in love with him, which it's like stop marrying people you're not in love with. You already did that. My friend, like, you gotta stop doing that. You only marry people you really, really, really love. But what she said was, I knew that Jennings didn't drink and that he wouldn't treat me bad. I just wanted someone to be with me and to talk with me. I wanted someone so badly to fill the emptiness in my life. Wow.

Starting point is 00:56:03 That's a gut right there. So fucking sad. Because you, that's all anybody wants. Is that what I need to talk to you and comfort you and accept you and just be a nice person? But it's like, who don't have to settle, man? And it's so much more magical. There's a lot going on with Velma.

Starting point is 00:56:21 It's a sad story. It is. But my god does she turn callous and wait in for it. Yeah. On August 23rd, 1970, a little over a year after the death of Thomas Burke, Velma married Jennings Barfields, but very little changed. She said, I was as unhappy married as I had been alone. Of course you are.

Starting point is 00:56:42 You don't love him. Right. And she found also that Jennings' health problems were quite a bit more complicated than Velma had realized and required a high level of care and attention. Diabetes alone is a lot to manage. Diabetes mixed with empathy. And she was ill-equicked to provide these things. And as a result of the increased stress, she began relying more on volume to get through the day. Volume.

Starting point is 00:57:06 And it didn't take long for Velma to realize Jennings' health problems, well, certainly not his fault, or at least partially worsened by his refusal to follow any doctor's orders to make any kind of life improvements. Oh, no. He had bad emphysema, but he wouldn't quit smoking. The same was true of his diabetes.

Starting point is 00:57:23 He wouldn't change his diet or exercise. And the only things worse for Velma was he said, the more obstinate he became, the more medicine I took, the more exasperated I grew, the more desperate. Wolf. And these are the things, though, where it's like, Velma, you're just blaming everyone else. You took the action here.

Starting point is 00:57:46 You married this man you don't love. You knew he had health problems. And now you're blaming his health problems on your stuff. Like you're blaming your stuff on his health problems when you knew what you were entering into. You knew it. Pauline told you, you were best friends. You were confident.

Starting point is 00:58:03 She told you what he needed. Yeah. So it's like you went into this knowing he was going to have a lot of things that he needed. And you probably knew that he was pretty stubborn and he wasn't going to change it because I'm sure Pauline told you that. Yeah. And your best friends, that's what you tell your best friend. 100% and it's like, and you married him knowing you didn't love him. Well, and I think that's the root of the full issue.

Starting point is 00:58:23 You've been down this road before. Because if you loved him, these things wouldn't be as simple as a deal. If you loved him, you could, you know, sink to your heels in and you'd be like, let's go. Right. Like, you didn't love him. So this didn't hit the same.

Starting point is 00:58:35 And it's like, but you're not recognizing that these, you're doing this shit to yourself. I can't imagine walking down the aisle to a man that I didn't love. Oh, no. Like, to know, because you hear that, people are like, Oh, like on my wedding day, I knew it. Like right before I walked in the nose, like,

Starting point is 00:58:50 what are you doing? And it's like, why do you, like, why did you go through all of that? Yeah. It's a lot. Yeah. Now, Velma had been married to Jennings for less than a year, and she already felt more trapped than she ever had before. And to make matters worse,

Starting point is 00:59:06 Robbie had graduated from high school that spring and began working at the Cola Company where his father was once employed. But in the fall, he was going off to the University of South Carolina. We should be good for these kids for like getting into college. How are you?

Starting point is 00:59:19 I'm good on you for all the shit that was going on in your lives. Good job. That's huge. But Belmo is gonna lose one of the few constant sources of happiness and support that she had left in her life. Now, this is horrible. Yeah.

Starting point is 00:59:34 So, and yeah, and so she was already worried about Ronnie graduating, you know, going to college, but then he was drafted into the army a few months later with plans to be sent to Vietnam during one of the biggest troop surges. Oh my God. Now by the winter of 1971, life had become unbearable. Yeah, just suffocating for Velma, who was honestly in this awful cycle of depression,

Starting point is 01:00:02 addiction, hopelessness, and also self-sabotage, that she was just constantly cycling through. She was full of regret. She was now very resentful of Jennings. That's a very good thing. She felt that he trapped her in the marriage that she didn't really want.

Starting point is 01:00:18 Girley Pop, you said yes. Yeah. And then those feelings turned darker. Oh no, not Jennings. Now, all the death abuse, depression, addiction, disappointment she had cycled through, she found herself wishing Jennings was dead. She's gonna kill her best friend's husband

Starting point is 01:00:34 after she married him mom's after she died. She was really wanting to be free of what she considered to be a burden. There's this thing, it's called divorce. Yeah, you know of it. Like you just go for it girl. I know it can be messy, but you know what is messier? But murder.

Starting point is 01:00:53 And you know everything's messy at this point. Like let's go. Seriously. Now in late March of 1971, fueled by anger and, you know, whatever else she was dealing with. Valhalla. Valhalla bought a bottle of arsenic poison. Where do you buy arsenic?

Starting point is 01:01:08 I always wonder that. I'm like, it's just like a bottle with a skull and crossbones on it at the grocery store. And you're like, gonna grab this. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay.

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Starting point is 01:04:10 Masterclass.com slash morbid. Offer terms apply. [♪ Music playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background He wrote, part of me cried that it was the only way. It's not. Another part of me begged to stop. Who? And she had said she wanted to make him sick as punishment for what he'd put her through. He already is sick, girlfriend. Like super sick. And she said, then he'll be sorry he's caused me so much trouble

Starting point is 01:04:41 and he won't do it again. He'll start acting right and he won't bother me anymore. So do you see the little switch? That's sadistic. Yeah. Wow. Because it's like up until this point, you're like, fuck, Velma. Like what a sad life.

Starting point is 01:04:55 And like, damn, I'm feeling bad for you. And then at this point, you're like, oh, like, look at that. Damn, sure. Look at that. I don't feel bad at all anymore. No, I don't. And this man, this man who has had chronic health problems. And he just lost his wife.

Starting point is 01:05:09 And he lost his wife, your best friend. Yeah. That is beyond. Now, what's worse is, and maybe she didn't know this or maybe she didn't care. Maybe she knew and she didn't care. What? But Jennings had come to the same conclusion.

Starting point is 01:05:25 He was gonna kill her. He wasn't gonna kill her. Oh my God, I was like, what? That their marriage had been an impulsive mistake. Yeah. And it had been none out of grief. Right. He came to that,

Starting point is 01:05:35 he was like, you know what? It's probably a war here. And in fact, just days before his death, Jennings had contacted his lawyer to discuss a divorce. What the fuck? He was a developed Christian, and he cared very much about how he was perceived by others. And he had become embarrassed by Velma's, you know,

Starting point is 01:05:54 he had become embarrassed by Velma's, you know, what her addiction was doing to her, her erratic behavior. And it's certainly become subject of gossip around town at this point. And he was like, and you know, she doesn't want to take care of me. She doesn't really love me. Like I can see this and like, why am I probably bickering? And he's basically just sitting there going,

Starting point is 01:06:15 why am I making her take care of me when she doesn't love me? Yeah, she's not happy. I'm not like what we do. Yeah, like let's move on. So he went, he went about this the rational way. Because he was like, you know what, let's separate and we'll move on with our lives. Like, it'll be fine.

Starting point is 01:06:27 We did this impulsive thing. Oops. Let's move on. Yeah. That's crazy. Unfortunately for Jennings, his relationship came too late because on the afternoon of March 21st, Velma put the poison in Jennings food. She put a lot of poison in people's food. She didn't do the slow arsenic poisoning that you hear about. The arsenic took that you hear about. The arsenic took effect almost immediately. It's unclear whether she felt,

Starting point is 01:06:52 I mean, it's pretty clear to me, but it's unclear whether she felt guilty or was trying to cover her tracks, but when a parent that Jennings couldn't breathe, she rushed him to Cape Fear Hospital. But doctors there weren't hopeful that he would make it through the night and they were correct

Starting point is 01:07:09 because Jennings Barfield died the following morning from heart failure. What did they think it was because of the emphysema? That's the thing. She picked people who this would not be shocking that they died. And they wouldn't look into it. And they wouldn't look into it.

Starting point is 01:07:22 And arsenic poisoning is a very tough one to, unless you are getting an autopsy because you think something happened, then you're not going to know. I mean, one of the things that I read about was that you can smell garlic breath. Yeah, but that's an arsenic thing. And you know, there's, there's some other things like we'll get into it that, so, so I don't know what kind of arsenic that Velma was utilizing here, but upon further research there's trivalent arsenic is the worst kind. I didn't realize that there was even different kinds.

Starting point is 01:07:55 So trivalic arsenic has the added harshness of having a corrosive effect. So it will leave oral sores and someone's mouth as well, and it will cause GI bleeding and dysphasia, which is when somebody has trouble swallowing. Yeah. Trivalent, basically, like the way reason it's called, that it has to do with the molecular structure of the arsenic molecule itself. Trivalent means there's three valence electrons.

Starting point is 01:08:20 I'm going back to organic chemistry, dominated me, but I actually liked organic chemistry. That's a lot of thought. It means there's three valence electrons. Valence electrons are the electrons and the outermost shell of an atom. These electrons take part in a chemical reaction that will follow.

Starting point is 01:08:37 They can form a chemical bond with another atom to make this happen. Trivalent atoms can form three covalent bonds, which is just sharing electrons between atoms to form electron pairs. Sure. They can, they do this so they can be more stable. Okay.

Starting point is 01:08:51 So the reaction becomes more stable, more, you know, it does more damage. Now arsenic poisoning, especially in such a large and focused dosage, like Valmo is using on her victims, Right. Is fucking violent. This is not, it's an awful death. This is an oh no, I don't feel well, and then you pass out. It's hours, sometimes days of excruciating pain and agony. Oh, man.

Starting point is 01:09:20 It is awful. You will be vomiting, extreme stomach pain to the point of like, like just not even being able to breathe. You will be vomiting uncontrollably, diarrhea. You will have... Oh my God. It's just agony. So she's causing and watching these people in the worst pain you can possibly imagine. It's fucking awful. Cause it causes like GI bleeding and shit. Like so it makes you really fucked up. Does she ever say why she picked that? Like why she wanted to poison? No. I know like

Starting point is 01:09:57 women are more likely to poison by statistics. I think some of it is probably because she wouldn't be caught. Yeah. They weren't gonna, she picked people who they weren't gonna probably ask for an autopsy, because it'll eventually cause cardiac arrest, because your body goes into shock. Right. Because there's so much happening to your body, it's that bad that your body literally goes into shock, and you have a heart attack and die. It's a heart attack and die.

Starting point is 01:10:19 Like that's how they all died. Like they bodies went through fucking horror in front of her. It really take a deep breath. And then her bodies all went into such shock that they all had a heart attack and died. And then most of them are older as we'll see, so they don't question it. And did she do that with everybody?

Starting point is 01:10:37 Give them like a huge amount. Really? Oh yeah, she liked, at one point she said, she watched it and she felt nothing. Like she watched them go through the after effects and felt nothing. So she's a real monster.

Starting point is 01:10:52 She's a real monster. Unbelievable. Okay, keep going. Now, despite having caused Jennings Barfield's death, Velma was depressed still, because she's alone now, again. Do you think any part of her felt guilty? No, I think to me, I don't think she feels guilty. I think she just realizes that she puts herself back

Starting point is 01:11:17 to square one. Okay. And then she's depressed again. Now, as she'd done so many times before, she turned more to her addictions to dull these difficult emotions and tried, she had this thing she would do where she would try to soothe her guilt by telling herself, well, he was in poor health anyways.

Starting point is 01:11:36 So she just speeded it along. And that was the, she would tell herself that a lot, like, oh, that person was going to die anyway. So who cares, like, who cares if they went out and excruciating pain, shitting and throwing up all over themselves. That's what was gonna happen anyways, right? No, I don't think that was gonna happen. But thank you. Following her second husband's death, she once again found herself shockingly in financial difficulties because she didn't plan for that. So she rented out the house. She'd been living in with Jennings and she and Kim moved back into the

Starting point is 01:12:03 home she and the kids lived in when she was still with Thomas. Oh wow. With the fire. It had been twice damaged by fire, but she later said, I couldn't stand being back in that house. I redecorated and bought new furniture. I tried, but I just couldn't feel good in it. Being in that house that Thomas had built, maybe think I was drowning and didn't know how

Starting point is 01:12:21 to swim. Wow. Now, things only got worse as 1971 came to a close because Ronnie had tried repeatedly and unsuccessfully to get a deferment for his enlistment. And Kim's impending graduation meant that one more of her constant companions was going to be taken away. And the stress of everything collapsing around her caused Velma to lean much harder into her addictions. And by the end of the year, she experienced another drug overdose. Oh, another one.

Starting point is 01:12:50 Yep, she had already had a couple. Oh, I don't know when they were, so I didn't want to name them because they happened at different periods. But this one she claimed was, she later recognized as a half-hearted attempt to enter her own life. Wow. Eventually, the drugs and depression began affecting her performance at work

Starting point is 01:13:10 and she was showing up late constantly and just not showing up at all. And after seven years as one of the more reliable employees at Belk's department store, her boss had to fire her in December of 1971. Wow. Now completely depressed and unemployed, she entered 1972 living off what little insurance money

Starting point is 01:13:30 she got from Jennings death. And running out of money, Felma moved in with her parents in early 1972, and this was just as her father Murphy's health had begun to decline due to respiratory problems. Oh, man. Later, it was diagnosed as lung cancer. Now by the time it was diagnosed his cancer was too advanced to treat.

Starting point is 01:13:51 So he was checked into the hospital with no plans for a discharge. He was basically in hospice. Really sad. Now during this time Velma found work at a knitting plant and nearby Rayford just to help her mother with the bills. And she was able to maintain that employment for a little over two months. And then her father died in May and it sent her hurtling back into her bad habits. And by January 1973, Velma had now overdosed twice in

Starting point is 01:14:19 this many months. And it had begun stealing any pills she could find in her neighbor's houses. And, wow, you know, anybody's medicine cabinets, like she was really in a place where she needed a lot of help. And she was, and it was basically to stay off with Thrall at this point. Now, she couldn't function without it. And she also couldn't maintain employment because of it. It was actually how you can't function with it. And then it becomes such a big part of your life that you can't function of it. It's a sheety, you can't function with it and then it becomes such a big part of your life that you can't function without it. Yeah, it becomes a never-ending

Starting point is 01:14:51 what feels like a never-ending cycle that you can't get off. If you don't get just a halt, just an escalator that just keeps going around and around. It's just so crazy how your body is meant to function obviously without drugs most of the time, but then you can become so dependent on them that you have to have. It's a weird thing to reconcile in your brain. It's really scary. But she ended up kept living with her mom after her dad passed away.

Starting point is 01:15:16 Partially to help her mom, just to be there for her, but also she didn't really have any other option. Yeah. Now, her father, I guess, ended up later in life, kind of acting like a buffer between her and her mom. Her mom were fine. Like, her mom wasn't abusive or anything like that. But I think her and Lily just didn't get along that much.

Starting point is 01:15:36 Like, they kind of butted heads. Well, and she had resented her even for a try. I think that's what it is. Because it sounds like Lily wasn't really doing anything like outwardly wrong or anything. I think she just, like, because it sounds like Lily wasn't really doing anything like Outwardly wrong or anything. I think she just like rubbed velm other wrong way right? Velma does seem to have a whole lot of patience as we can see. It's very like Emily Gilmore lorely Yeah, when you look when you watch the series back a lot of the times you're like she's really not doing I feel like this times when you're like fuck you Emily

Starting point is 01:16:01 Yeah, 100% I think that's what kind of what Lily is it's like this time. She's like all right, Lily Yeah, but there's most of the time you're like, fuck you Emily, but 100%. I think that's what kind of what Lil' is. It's like this time she's like, all right Lil' like, yeah. But most of the time you're like, I think you just don't think you're being a hot head. You're being a hot head. You're being a hot head. You're being a hot head.

Starting point is 01:16:13 Yeah. Now, it got worse. So, Velma said, Mama liked to sit and talk about the old days when we were kids. She was getting old and maybe that's why she kept talking like that. That pissed her off. She's not going to kill her mom, is she?

Starting point is 01:16:24 And for whatever reason, her mother's nostalgia and what she saw as her complete disregard for the unpleasant memories of her childhood, she didn't want to talk about it. Like she was like, you're only focusing on the nice things which is like she's old. So I think that's just how it's been. So last year husband, like, I don't know.

Starting point is 01:16:42 I don't know. I don't know. I was gonna say I can't speak for it. I was not going to. If you're an abused child, then someone's only focusing on the wonderful times. I'd be like, yeah, get your fucking face on a lot of it. I was gonna say, I went to say, I don't know,

Starting point is 01:16:55 just let her hang out and talk about the nice things if it makes her happy, which like, I, from my point of view, I look at it that way, like if it makes her, but I'm not an abuse child, so I can't understand the trauma that comes along with that and how angry you would be. I would say try your best to let her. But it's like do that, but I can see where it's bigger than you.

Starting point is 01:17:17 Yeah, it's hard. You got sometimes like it's like everyone's in a while I have to make sure I put myself in a different position instead of looking at it only for my, right, my happy position over here. Like, you know, maybe like I didn't have that ceaseless, unending trauma growing up. So it's like an abuse and shit like that.

Starting point is 01:17:38 So it's like I can sit here and say that. Cause I can't imagine sitting with them. I mean, my mom was a single mom, but I can't imagine if like my stepdad was still a part of my life and hearing him be like, but the good times, sometimes, I'm like, you shut the fuck up, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like,

Starting point is 01:17:53 I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I can understand that. Like, I can see it. Cause at first when I read it, I was like, girl, and it's also I think because Velma is a fucking serial killer that I'm like, your first thing you love to disagree with her of course. But there's times when you're like, all right, I guess I see this traumatized child, I

Starting point is 01:18:09 suppose. Yeah. But yeah, at Pistoroff, she was not happy with that. I could definitely see that. And her anxieties were further inflamed by the fact that Kim now graduated from high school and out of the house was engaged to be married. Oh, man. Oh, the way that just came

Starting point is 01:18:26 full circle. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. And she's out of money at this point. She can't pay for any kind of wedding. She can't help with any of that. And Velmo into the bank and took out a loan. Okay. And she used her mother's house as collateral. Unbeknownst to Lily. Yeah. Yeah. She told the bank that Lily was too ill to come and fill out the paperwork herself and they just letter. Banks were wily back. That's a thing. You don't fucks with the bank, but sometimes you do fucks with the bank. Sometimes the bank fucks with you. Yeah. But in early December 1974, notices began arriving from the bank addressed to Lily. And they were demanding payment on a loan

Starting point is 01:19:05 that Velma had taken out on her behalf. So Lilly is older now and she's assuming, oh, well, like the bag made of a shake, so she's just throwing them out, not even thinking about it, like just due to new. And but Velma was seeing the notices. And she's panicking and she's sure her mom's gonna find out that she's gonna be caught.

Starting point is 01:19:24 And so, one day in mid-December, Velma had gone to the pharmacy to pick up her prescription and purchased another bottle of arsenic before leaving the store. I kill her own mother. She said, I don't remember thinking about what I would do next, but somewhere inside me, I must have already conceived of the plan.

Starting point is 01:19:42 I had done it once, even though I had blotted that from my conscious memory. Later, Velma would claim that she had only planned, and this is her constant claim, constant. Every time she does this, she claims this, and I'm like, girl, we don't believe you. Velma would claim that she'd only planned to make her mother sick for a while, just long enough to give her time to find a job and pay back the loan and stop the notices from coming. No. Whatever the plan had really been, it didn't happen that way.

Starting point is 01:20:08 Velma poisoned her food and not long after she ate it, Lily began uncontrollably vomiting, complained of agonizing stomach pains. And Velma's mother, Velma called her mother's doctor, but her doctor assumed that she had the flu, which was going around at the time. So he declined to see her and was like, oh, I'll just call her an prescription. That's okay. Now the medicine obviously didn't help her mother because she did not have the flu. Right. So she called her brother Olive, and they both arranged for an ambulance to bring Lily to the hospital. While Lily was an ICU, Velma kept repeating to everyone that the doctor told her

Starting point is 01:20:44 there were a lot of people dealing with this kind of illness right now. So that's what it was. She just had to convince herself that what she had done to her mother was not what was causing this illness. It was secondary. Now later that afternoon, her mother died of a heart attack because her body went into shock.

Starting point is 01:21:00 From arsenic. Yep. And she later said that she kept repeating to herself, mama died because of her heart trouble. It had nothing to do with the poison. She even have heart trouble previously. No. Now, since the death of Thomas Burke in 1969, Velma had descended deeper, deeper into this addiction that she was living in until her entire life was revolving around the pills she took just to get through the day. Right. And before she knew it, the addiction had become a trap in which she was willing to do anything

Starting point is 01:21:27 to avoid the panic of being cut off from it. Following her mother's death, mother's murder, Velma moved in with her daughter Kim and her husband, her new husband, but her drug abuse immediately caused problems. In an effort to help their mother, Kim and Ronnie would regularly round up all the pills and flush them down the toilet.

Starting point is 01:21:48 But Velma always found a way to get more. And one day, while she was cleaning out some things at her mother's house, she found a checkbook from an old account. She had opened when Jennings was still alive. So she had no money. And so she remembered the checkbook and wrote a bad check to the pharmacy,

Starting point is 01:22:05 knowing but really not caring that she was going to be caught. Because she was using it to get pills. Yeah, and it was a bad check. Right. So just days after writing the check, two sheriff's deputies showed up at her door to discuss the bad check. At first, they went easy on her and were like, listen, if you just repay the money, we're not going to cause you any trouble. Right. But she didn't have the money to pay. And so Velma made another half-hearted attempt to take her own life by overdosing on pills again. But she woke up in the hospital later that day.

Starting point is 01:22:34 Her collarbone actually broke from the fall that she took when she passed out. Oh, wow. And it was while she was in the hospital that the two sheriff's deputies returned. This time, they had a warrant for her arrest. And it was while she was in the hospital that the two sheriff's deputies returned. This time they had a warrant for her arrest. She had no options to pay back the money.

Starting point is 01:22:51 So she had to plead guilty and was sentenced to six months at North Carolina's correctional center for women in Raleigh. And while the time in jail seems like it would have been a great opportunity for Velma to get sober. There's more in jail than there is on the streets. But instead, she spent most of her time just looking for what she was thinking about, what she was going to do when she came out. And after receiving an early release for good behavior after serving four months of the

Starting point is 01:23:16 sentence, she stole a check from her son-in-law's checkbook, then minutes she got home and went straight to the pharmacy and filled the prescription. Wow. Not long after Kim learned she was pregnant, with a baby on the way, she was like, there's not enough room in this house for all of us. And I can't have a baby around all this dysfunction. I can't imagine what it was going through. Exactly. She was like, no.

Starting point is 01:23:38 Oh, I feel so bad for Kim. I know. To have to like, like for lack of a better term, kick your mother around. Yeah. To have to be like, we can't. I need to focus on my family. Oh, that's really sad. It happens to Ronnie too. Oh, so she found a new arrangement with an elderly neighbor

Starting point is 01:23:53 and she was gonna live with her. Oh, fuck. She was gonna provide limited in-home care in exchange for room and board. Girl, you can't even care for yourself and you're gonna care for this elderly person. Now at first this seemed like an ideal job to her, but then it became clear to her that the woman's needs were far greater than what she could meet. And after four months she

Starting point is 01:24:14 was moved this woman, the salary woman, thankfully, for her was moved to a long-term care facility, which put Valmad of a job and out of a home. Right. But unfortunately, but fortunately for her, there is no shortage of elderly people in need of care. So she found herself in a new living care position with an elderly couple named Montgomery and Dolly Edwards. Shot your face right now. I know the cutest names. Montgomery and Dolly.

Starting point is 01:24:42 Yeah. I love them forever. They were made to find each other. Yeah, they were. No, right? In November 1975, Dolly Edwards had decided she wanted to bring her husband, Montgomery home from the hospital. Okay.

Starting point is 01:24:56 But they were older. She hadn't either the energy, no of the strength to meet the demands of his care. It was the county nurse who had recommended Velma to Dolly. Girl, bye. She had met her a few months earlier when Velma was hired to care for her elderly sister, that other person. Okay, okay. After just one brief conversation, Dolly was like,

Starting point is 01:25:15 sounds good to me, and she offered the position to Velma, and she would get room and board, and also would get a salary of $75 a week. Now, like so many of the relationships in her life, it didn't take long before she was just fucking annoyed by these people. That's the thing with Valmett's, like get the fuck over yourself.

Starting point is 01:25:34 Yeah, what is wrong with you? Like don't be around people if you don't like them, but you have to be careful. You have to be careful if you don't like them. Like, Jesus, Cret, these are older people, they're just like living their lives. Yeah, but they have things that she wants. She came to resent them.

Starting point is 01:25:46 And- Have you resent Montgomery and Dolly exactly? She was very quick to become irritated and hated the way, which this annoys me, hated the way that Dolly always hovered around her when she was tending to Montgomery's needs and criticizing the way she did things. Bet you better bet that I'm gonna criticize the way you're taking care of my man.

Starting point is 01:26:04 Well, that's it. I'm like, you think Dolly is not gonna give a fuck what you're doing to Montgomery over there? You just got out of the hospital also. She's once brought in his house. She's not sure that he can stay home. Yeah, fuck you, baby. Are you kidding me?

Starting point is 01:26:16 I will fucking hug her. My girl managed what you do to my elderly husband. Absolutely. Fuck that shit. That's mine. Mm-hmm. Like. That's shit. That's mine. Mm-hmm. That's love. I heard that.

Starting point is 01:26:29 And that's the thing. She doesn't understand that. She doesn't understand that kind of love, that kind of devotion, that kind of caring. Because she never does with a man that she loves. So she doesn't understand why Dolly has to sit there and see everything she's doing. That's wild. And then she claims that she says, at times I felt I saw flashbacks as if I'd gone back home again.

Starting point is 01:26:49 She acted like my mother, always telling me what to do and never pleased with the way I did things. And it's like, well, no, that's grow up. Because that's her guy. You know? And but then even Ronnie would later say that he overheard several arguments between his mother and dolly that reminded him very much of the arguments

Starting point is 01:27:07 she would have with Lily before she died. Oh, wow. And I'm like, I think this is Velma's problem. Yeah. Velma also greatly disliked the way Dolly talked about her nephew, Stuart Taylor. Velma had met Stuart a few times while she was working for the Edwards

Starting point is 01:27:23 and he always seemed like a perfect, a nice guy. To be honest, I believe he's not. Which I was like, well, you are not one to have, like your taste is not, is not killing it. Right, you know, I don't think you are the end. You're the end all be all of who's a good guy. But Dali always made a point of speaking very ill of him, criticizing him for his drinking.

Starting point is 01:27:41 Uh huh. But it's her fucking family, she knows. And also like, I'm sorry, you've seen what drink, what like, you know, somebody who like prioritizes that over everything. Like, you know, that doesn't work for you. And I was going to say, you didn't like it. Now that fall, Stuart asked Velma if she would like to have dinner with him and she happily agreed.

Starting point is 01:27:59 Oh, man. You're hearing what he's like, dude. Like, this is what I mean. I'm like, come on. But it's like, it's one of those things where it's such a cycle for her because she went after Thomas after her parents disapproved, look what happened.

Starting point is 01:28:13 And now, this woman, who's like her mom, disapproves of this guy, it's, she's one of those people where you disapprove and it makes her go after it harder. And she's living the same life. So like moving in with Dolly and Montgomery Dolly, she says, reminds her of her mother. Yeah. And she's living the same life. So like moving in with Dolly and Montgomery, Dolly, she says or reminds her of her mother. Yeah. And she's like going against her.

Starting point is 01:28:29 Yeah. Now Stuart and Velma went out a couple of times a week for about six weeks until he stopped coming by the house completely out of nowhere. Oh, he goes to her. Yeah. When Velma mentioned it, Dolly said Stuart and his wife had reconciled. Ooh. And we're hoping to get back together.

Starting point is 01:28:44 Velma was disappointed, but was like whatever. Yeah. Moving on. Stewart and his wife had reconciled. And we're hoping to get back together. Velmo was disappointed, but was like whatever. Moving on. Now by January 1977, Montgomery had passed away at the end of the month. So now Velmo... So now Velmo... So now Velmo is left alone with Dolly in the house.

Starting point is 01:29:00 Without Montgomery to care for, Dolly found new chores and responsibilities for Velma because she was like, you still wanna be paid, you still want someone to live. Which Velma interpreted as new excuses for Dolly to criticize her. It's like, girl, she's putting a fucking roof over your head of money in your pocket. And Velma said, over the last few months,

Starting point is 01:29:19 the pressure had built up so much that every time Mrs. Edward started to complain, I wanted to scream at her. I began to hate Mrs. Edwards. I wanted to hurt her in some way. Then leave. That's not normal. No, of course it's not normal. Thought patterns. Like, I want to hurt this elderly woman. That's terrifying. You leave.

Starting point is 01:29:37 By. Like, you can go get another job with another elderly couple who you can decide to hate. Right. Now, after a little more than a month alone with Dolly, she couldn't stand it any longer. And poor Dolly is also probably depressed after a month comes in your husband. After a month comes in your husband.

Starting point is 01:29:52 And on February 28th, what did Velma do? She poisoned the elderly woman in the same way that she had done the others. Wow. Dolly was an excruciating pain for about a day until she passed away the following morning with Velma so out of it that she was oblivious. So, Dolly, for a whole day was an excruciating, torturous sickness and pain. Well, Velma just sat there and used and disassociated.

Starting point is 01:30:24 And Dalma just sat there and used disassociated. This poor elderly woman who tried her cell. She was just a kid. She was a torturously excruciatingly dying in her own house. It's just that's a horrible thing to think about. I just thought of this too. Those last couple months for Edward were probably awful too because there was such dysfunction in the house. Yeah, for Montgomery.

Starting point is 01:30:45 Yes, for Montgomery. Yeah, it's just like dysfunction in parts of their lives. Or dysfunction. Or dysfunction. Yeah, it seems to be what she does. She sucks. Now under most circumstances, the amount of tragedy and death

Starting point is 01:30:59 that seemed to follow Velma, or whatever she's suspicious, but remember, she's picking sick and elderly people. So their deaths are like, not, they're shocking, but not shocking, you know what I mean? Like they're not like unusual. And in the beginning of April, she sat wondering what she was gonna do now.

Starting point is 01:31:18 The Edwards were dead. So she received a call from a woman who's looking for someone to provide live-in care services for her parents. These people were John Henry and record Lee. Mrs. Lee had recently broke her leg and at 80 years old, her husband was unable to take care of her. 80 years old, you live your whole life and then fucking Velma moves in with you. She was going to get room and board, she would get a small salary, so she agreed to work with the leaves in late April. Now, just as before,

Starting point is 01:31:48 Velma immediately found the job annoying. She found her employer's intolerable. She said, get another fucking job. And she said they argued a lot, constantly bickering over things of no importance. I'm like, get their old. Yeah, like that's what you do. That's what my world people do.

Starting point is 01:32:02 100%. And after a few months, Velma's undu resentment of the couple had gone right into it and normally does, I hate her. It's wild. That's the thing. I'm like, your, your hate and temper and anger is evil.

Starting point is 01:32:17 Is evil. Like, that's evil shit. So she spent her days just seething and dreaming about how she could just, she was like, I just wanted to walk out and abandon them how she could just she was like, I just wanted to walk out and abandon them and it's like then do that. I was going to say go for it. But she figured if she quit her job, she would have no money.

Starting point is 01:32:33 And so things changed in late summer when Velmeni did to see a new doctor for her to her prescriptions. And this required a sum of money she just didn't have. So to cover the cost, she stole a check from John Henry's checkbook and wrote out the amount of $50 forging his name at the bottom. What a piece of shit. The doctor accepted the check without question,

Starting point is 01:32:53 which I'm like, everybody else needs to check themselves here too. Like, what's wrong with all of you? And Valmo was able to get the medicine, but just as in the case of the loan taken out under Mother's House, she immediately began to panic that John Henry was going to get his bank statement and discover what she had done. Right.

Starting point is 01:33:10 She said, in a state of panic, I again bought poison. She said telling that she really wasn't a state of panic. No, she liked doing this. Yeah. She got the added bonus of getting some money out of it, exactly. She said telling myself that I only wanted to make him sick so that I could leave, get a different job and replace the monies I had taken by forgery.

Starting point is 01:33:30 And that's not true. She is full of shit. Because you make him sick for a little bit, he's still gonna go over his bank statements when he gets better and you know that. You didn't want to make him sick. You wanted to kill him. You've seen that the amount of arsenic

Starting point is 01:33:43 you're putting in food is killing people. It's not just making people change. It's not changing it up. Right. And also, that's also fucked up. I love that she's like, I just wanted to make people's widely idly. Yeah, I don't understand why that was a problem.

Starting point is 01:33:57 And it's like, you fucking, like that's wild. Yeah, she's evil. That she's literally saying like, what? I just wanted to poison them a little. And it's like they are 80 years old, you fucking asshole. That's evil. That she's literally saying like, what? I just wanted to poison them a little. And it's like they are 80 years old you fucking asshole. That's wild. So a few days later, Velma served John Henry, the poison food and the arsenic immediately went to work.

Starting point is 01:34:14 She said he went through the same kinds of pain that the others had gone through. Again, I watched in a detached way, feeling no connection between my actions and his pain. Wow. So she watched this poor old man in excruciating pain. 80 years old. John Henry died on June 4th, 1977, with the medical examiner listing the cause of death as a heart attack. That's horrible. Now, to think that these people could have lived longer, and like gotten more out of life than just the... Yeah, but she just takes it because she's annoyed. Now, just days after John Henry's death,

Starting point is 01:34:50 Velma was shocked when she answered the Lee's front door to find Stuart Taylor. Why? He tracked her down, standing before her. Hadn't seen Stuart in over a year. Velma didn't understand why she was seeing him now, but he quickly explained that he was in the process of divorcing his wife, and he wanted to check on Velma to see understand why she was seeing him now, but he quickly explained that he was in the process of divorcing his wife, and he wanted to check on Velma to see how she had been doing.

Starting point is 01:35:08 After you just fucking walked out of her life. Velma invited Stuart in, and they spent hours catching up. Following John Henry Lee's death, the Lee family convinced Velma to stay on to take care of record. They, that's even sadder. Right. They convinced her to stay to take care of their, you know, the wife. Yeah. Because they had no idea.

Starting point is 01:35:29 And Velma agreed, but it didn't take long before she started getting that feeling again. Oh my God. Suddenly, she was feeling resentment, anger, irritability. And the only thing that made those months tolerable, she said, was that steward had become, been coming by for visits regularly. And before long, they'd become a proper relationship, picking up where they'd left off, you know, the year before. And Velma spent a few months in the Lee home after John Henry's death, but eventually that

Starting point is 01:35:57 anger and, you know, feelings came too much. So she found a job as a nurse's aide at a nearby nursing home where she worked third shift. And the salary was higher than anything she had made in recent years, so she was able to move into a trailer home by herself, which seemed to improve her mood a little bit. Okay. Now, after a while, Belma began to notice a pattern in Stuart's behavior that made her a little uneasy. He would come around for a few days in a row and then disappear for a week. Bench drinking.

Starting point is 01:36:29 With no, you nailed it. Yeah. And then he'd just show up again, like nothing had happened. And on one of these occasions, Velma had become concerned and called Stewart's stepmother who told her not to worry, he's been on one of his drinking benches again. Exactly.

Starting point is 01:36:44 By late summer, Velma and Stewart were spending nearly all their free time together, going on short trips, like, you know, really going for it. For a time, it seems the rage and numbness was kind of keeping at bay. You know, she was feeling a little happiness with Stewart, I guess, which only or what she thought was happening. I was just going to say the she-y-y-y- gonna say that she knew what that was gonna say. Which only increased in the fall of 1977 when Stuart asked Belma to marry him. Lee.

Starting point is 01:37:10 Now the kids, her kids, Ronning Kim were very immediately concerned. They were like, I think you're rushing into marriage again and I think you're rushing into marriage with another alcoholic again. Like, why would you do this? And like, I don't think this is great and he could be potentially violent. Like, we've seen how this happens.

Starting point is 01:37:30 So, Velma assured them that Stuart was working on that. Working on that, okay. And besides, you know, they couldn't get married until Stuart's divorce was finalized in May, so they, you know, there was time to make everything hard. Oh my God. Can you imagine having to deal with this with your mother? I literally can't.

Starting point is 01:37:47 That's horrible. Now years later, Velma would acknowledge that a marriage to Stuart would have been a bad idea. Oh, okay. So she doesn't do it. She said, I never felt close to him at all. Yes, you did. Which is like, damn, you really are cold as ice.

Starting point is 01:38:00 Because it's like, you pretended like what the fuck she said. I don't believe that she didn't feel close to him. I can't comprehend why I wanted to be with him. Sometimes we're just lonely. Somebody to talk to, you know? I think that is who she is at her core. Damn. It's like this tall,

Starting point is 01:38:16 just, just, just, I'm not. Now regardless of how she claimed to feel about him later, at the time, Velma seemed to go out of her way to get Stuart's attention. That's the thing. And like, and she went out of her way to get Stuart's attention. That's the thing, and she went out of her way to get her previous husband's attention.

Starting point is 01:38:29 And this one's even wilder because she went to extremes to get his attention here. In one incident in November, police were called to her trailer when a friend stopped by to check on her and found Velma duct taped by her hands and feet with another piece across her mouth. She claimed she had entered the bathroom that morning about to take a shower, when a man

Starting point is 01:38:50 entered her trailer through a towel over her head and forced her back into the bedroom, where he secured her to the bed. She claimed she never saw her saline, and certainly couldn't identify him by voice alone. She, of course, not. And she had been taped to the bed, but she hadn't been assaulted by anybody in any way. Mm-hmm. And there was nothing missing from the house.

Starting point is 01:39:11 In fact, nobody had even gone through the house. Like, there was nobody had clearly opened anything to look for valuables, nothing. What the fuck? And although they didn't say it at the time, the officers at the scene were like, I think she did this to herself. How do you tape yourself to her head? And they said they think't say it at the time, the officers at the scene were like, I think she did this to herself. How do you tape yourself to her head?

Starting point is 01:39:26 And they said they think she did it to get sympathy from Stuart, and it worked. When Stuart arrived at her house a short time later, the officers quote, notice tell solicitous and reassuring he was being, and he demanded Velma wasn't gonna stay another night alone, and insisted she move in with him immediately. I've gotta go.

Starting point is 01:39:45 Like I've got to go. Yeah. Now if Noah had thought that moving in with Stewart would be like a positive step in their relationship, she was probably disappointed. Cause it made it harder. Yeah. Stewart became very suspicious of Velma

Starting point is 01:40:02 because she's a suspicious mother fucker. Which has a addiction as well. Stewart began going through her things while she was out and found several letters from people she'd met in prison. What? Velma had never mentioned to her fiance that she had gone to prison. Oh my god. So that was a big revelation to him. Which is something you should probably tell someone.

Starting point is 01:40:21 And from there, the relationship just began to deteriorate. Velman Stewart spent more time fighting than anything else. They just could not get along. So no longer happy with that life. Velma fell right back into her old habits, started forging Chex Stolen from Stewart's checkbook. So a stealing Chex for him. You were the conwoman, baby.

Starting point is 01:40:41 And he received his bank statement in December, and noticed the Ford's Che checks used to pay the pharmacy and confronted Velma. And he was like, listen, if you don't return the money, like I'm gonna have you arrested. Yeah. This is fucked up. And with their relationship effectively over, she Velm ended up going to her son, Ronnie's house,

Starting point is 01:40:59 hoping she could move in with him. But Ronnie was like, you can't. Like I'm living with my wife and he was like, he had an infant child at that point and he was like, the way you are is not conducive to me having a happy family life with my little family. Like I need to take care of my child and my wife. So hate that both of her kids were put in that position.

Starting point is 01:41:21 But also, good for them. Good for you guys. For putting your family first. Like those boundaries and those putting your own little families first is sometimes necessary. Yeah. You did the right thing. Absolutely. Absolutely.

Starting point is 01:41:35 Well done. And especially. And especially you had to go through that. That's the thing. I can't imagine how distressing that is. Because no matter what, like it's your family, it's your mom. And then you have to choose another part of your family over her, and she should have never put them

Starting point is 01:41:50 in that position. But really good for them for recognizing that that would be starting a cycle that could really turn out bad. And especially to realize that in that time period too, where again, talk therapy wasn't the biggest thing. Yeah, so that's good for them. Yeah. But this, you know, this rejection was a big, especially her son, which her son, it's that just seems to be a different, a different thing for her. Yeah. And it was, she went from uncontrolled sobbing to a kind of rage that Ronnie said he had never seen

Starting point is 01:42:24 in his mother. And he also was like, hey, this is like, this is why you can't live here. He said it was a mean, mean look, real angry, unlike any I've ever seen before. Wow. And I even literally wrote in my notes, you did the right thing, Ronnie.

Starting point is 01:42:37 Yeah, absolutely. So it was like, I need you to know you did the right thing. I would be like, you're proving me right now. Yeah, I can't be near my infant child and my wife doing this. Like, you were the, you were being the dad. You were taking care of your family. Good for you. And Kim did the same thing.

Starting point is 01:42:51 And go for Kim, be in the mom and taking care of her shit. Oh, yeah. Now, by January 1978, Velma had quit her job and was hospitalized again for a brief period of time. Without money to pay for anything, she again stole checks from Stuart, which triggered that panic that he was going to report her and that familiar panic said in. She was only going to make them sick. She told herself. Just long enough for her to replace the money,

Starting point is 01:43:17 so he wouldn't find out about the checks. Of course, Velma did not just make Stuart sick. She poisoned him with arsenic, just as she had the others. Stuart spent the evening of February 3rd in absolute agony. And eventually, Velma took him to the hospital, but by then it was too late. Within a few hours, he was pronounced dead. So she killed three people within the same family. That's nuts. Yeah. Like a couple months apart. Yeah. Wow. And all for the same reasons. There's no real deal. You annoyed me. And I stole your money. And I was scared you were going to report me.

Starting point is 01:43:52 She's fucked. What is she up to? Like how many people? She killed at this point. She killed her husband, her second husband, then her mother, then one of them. She's really Dolly and Dolly's husband. Not Montgomery. She didn't kill Montgomery. Oh, right. So she killed Dolly. She killed John Henry. Oh my god, and she's killed Stewart Holy shit now until Stewart's death Velma's victims like we said had all been kind of sick or elderly Precisely the type of people you would kind of expect to die from an illness or an accident or some kind of, you know, stewart was only 56 years old at the time of his death. I was just using relatively good health.

Starting point is 01:44:35 That's fucking wild. Now, under the circumstances, like under the, you know, I guess like relatively good health all things considered about his lifestyle. Okay. Under the circumstances, he wasn't on the pay. considered about his lifestyle. Oh, okay. Under the sea, he wasn't on the pay. Like nobody expected him to just drop death. Yeah. Now, under the circumstances, the family was stunned

Starting point is 01:44:53 and confused by his death. And so they were like, yeah, we want an autopsy. Right. And they were eager for pathologists to perform one. In fact, they even included Velma in their decision to have the autopsy performed, which she agreed was a good idea. What?

Starting point is 01:45:08 She said, I didn't expect them to find anything. Besides, my mind was already convincing me that I had not killed Stuart. And here's a complete full of fucking arsenic. But she's probably thinking, especially at this time period, how am I gonna find it? He was vomiting and diarrhea and all that came out of his system. Like, then I'm going to find that shit. And it's not like we're as advanced

Starting point is 01:45:32 as we are now. So it's like, she even now it can be tough to find. You know what I mean? Yeah, it can be, it's a tough one. So she's probably thinking, like, what the fuck are they going to find? And then I'm going find Arseneck. Wow. Yeah. I wonder if they wouldn't have, well, I don't know what happens. I'm assuming they do. And I don't know if they wouldn't have if she hadn't put so much.

Starting point is 01:45:52 I'm interested to find that out. She really goes, now despite pressure from Stuart's family, the pathologist could only work as fast as his partners in the lab could turn around test results. So the results of the autopsy were delayed by several weeks

Starting point is 01:46:04 because they were trying to go through all the strange abnormalities they were discovering during the initial exam. In fact, it wasn't until the pathologist was describing the results to the state's chief medical examiner, Paige Hudson, that things started moving again. While the technicians and pathologists had recognized suspicious elements of the autopsy, it was Hudson who immediately recognized Stuart Taylor's death as acute arsenic poisoning.

Starting point is 01:46:30 Hudson's presumption. Yeah. Would take a little more time and a few more tests to confirm, sorry, I was moving. That's why I was like, well, but in the meantime, he had called the police in the district attorney to let them know that they very likely had a murder on their hands. Ooh.

Starting point is 01:46:49 Now following Stuart's murder, Velma fell right back into that cycle of working the overnight shift, then returning home to get lost in just disassociation. And she did get the occasional visitor, but she wasn't very surprised when the doorbell rang on March 10th and she opened it to find a man she'd never seen before, standing on her doorstep. The man introduced himself as Benson Phillips, a detective with the Lumberton Police Department. Oh, the...

Starting point is 01:47:14 And he has Velma to come down to the station with him to talk about a few suspicious deaths, including that of her latest fiance, Stuart Taylor. Oh, shit. [♪ Music playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing in background, playing red wound on his arm and seemed unwell. She insisted on driving him to the local hospital to get treatment. While he waited for his prescription, Dorothy went to grab her car to pick him up at the exit, but would never be seen alive again. Leaving us to wander decades later, what really happened to Dorothy Jane's Scott? From wandering generation-wise, a podcast that covers notable true crime cases like this one and many more? Every week hosts Aaron and Justin sit down to discuss a new case, covering every angle

Starting point is 01:48:09 and theory, walking through the forensic evidence and interviewing those close to the case to try to discover what happened. With over 450 episodes, there's a case for every true crime listener. Follow the Generation Why podcast on the Wondering Up, or wherever you get your podcasts. You can listen to Generation Y and Free right now by joining Wondering Plus. Now, in the short amount of time since the abnormalities were discovered in Stuart's autopsy, investigators had traced A-Path backwards from Velma and found that Stuart was just the latest in a surprising number of weird deaths that seemed to involve the

Starting point is 01:48:52 45-year-olds, nurses age, surely 45. The deaths included the recently deceased Stuart Taylor, Velma's mother Lily, and her former employees, employers, they did include Montgomery and Kelly. And John Henry Lee, all having shown signs of gastroenteritis. Wow. Yeah. Now, in the interrogation room, Velma acted stunned when the detectives connected the dots between her and the other suspicious deaths.

Starting point is 01:49:24 She said, y'all think I poisoned Stewart, don't you? And she started crying and was like, you know, and the investigators are like, oh great, she's gonna confess right here and there we got her. But she called their bluff and just maintained her innocence throughout the entire conversation. But fortunately, a few days later, the final results from the autopsy came back and confirmed

Starting point is 01:49:43 that Stewart had died for arsenic poisoning. Damn. Detective Phillips took the news to Stewart's family and informed them that they suspected Velma of having killed their father. Sorry, her children thought that she killed their dad. No, so I should have said that a better way. No, that's okay. Stewart had children.

Starting point is 01:50:04 Oh, okay, okay. I see. With that a better way. I'm sorry. No, that's okay. Stuart had children. Oh, okay, okay. I see. With his ex-wife. Previous wife. Yeah. I should have stated that a little better because I would have been confusing. No, that makes sense.

Starting point is 01:50:12 No. And this prompted Stuart's daughter, Alice, to provide the investigators with all the information on the forged checks and Velma's other suspicious behavior in the weeks leading up to Stuart's murder. That's the thing, it's like you created, like you were selling your paper trail. And on the evening of March 13, 1978,

Starting point is 01:50:33 Detective Benson returned to Velma's house this time for a warrant for her arrest for the murder of Stuart Taylor. Yeah. And although investigators were tight-lipped about the other deaths, Velma was suspected of having caused, Lumberton, North Carolina, is a small town. And it wasn't hard for the press and locals

Starting point is 01:50:50 to put the pieces together. Now confronted with the evidence against her and the threat of revealing tests being conducted on the zoomed bodies now of her mother and Dolly and Montgomery Edwards. Oh, wow. Velma confessed that she and indeed murdered Stuart by poisoning.

Starting point is 01:51:08 On March 26, the district attorney Joe Britt presented his case against Velma to the Robson County grand jury, who indicted Velma Barfield on one count of first-degree murder. But Velma was absent from the courtroom at the time because she was admitted to Dorothea Dick's hospital a few days, for a few days, for a psychological examination. A month later, Dr. Bob Rollins, a psychiatrist from the hospital, completed and submitted

Starting point is 01:51:38 the results of examination of Velma in which she determined that she was competent to stand trial. A month later, on May 5, Velma was arraigned that she was competent to stand trial. A month later on May 5, Velma was a rain for the murder in a Robson County courtroom where she pled not guilty by reason of insanity. As the pieces of the puzzle begin coming together in the press, the residents of Lumberton grew increasingly shocked by the number of Velma's victims and the manner in which they were killed.

Starting point is 01:52:03 Because like we said, some of you are poisoning and you think, I think your brain sometimes just goes to like, oh no, I don't feel well and then somebody passes out dies. And it's like, oh no, this is fucking gruesome. It is an awful, awful, awful way to die. She was a real monster. It's right up there with like stabbing and like doing awful like hand to hand shit. It's bad. And she just sat there and watched it. It just watched it happen. That's

Starting point is 01:52:31 even worse. Yeah. One resident told the Charlotte news, you just don't expect to have a mass murderer in your town, which I mean, valid. Yeah. After it, I don't. A friend of Stuart's name Yates Allen agreed and told her reporters he was very angry at Velma. He said, for causing a friend of mine to go through what he went through, certainly he suffered the tortures of the damned, which I was like, wow. Shit. But most people simply couldn't wrap their heads around the idea of what they knew

Starting point is 01:53:00 as like a pretty kind, helpful woman. Yeah. Because again, like she had gotten recommended to work with these elderly people. Right. She was by all accounts, a loving mom, even though like they had a tough childhood, obviously. Right. I don't think she outwardly was showing a lot of things

Starting point is 01:53:16 that would lead anyone to believe she could do this. They just couldn't believe she had done it. And Alan again said, stewart in all his life, he wouldn't go to church. This one got him going two or three times a week. Wow, she was going to church. That's the thing. I was like, I don't know if that's the flex that you think it is,

Starting point is 01:53:34 because it's like this serial killer got him going two or three times a week. Like, I don't know what that says about anything. But I feel like maybe we could just leave that to the birds, you know? I think he was like damn. Because I'm like, like, like, I don't know what that, she, this bitch was going to church

Starting point is 01:53:55 two or three times a week. I don't, I don't know. I don't have a lot of experience. I don't have a comment. But I'm like damn. Damn indeed. They were sitting in pews with a serial killer. That's wild.

Starting point is 01:54:08 And she's sitting there, like, talking up a big game. I mean, according to her and you'll hear, she gets saved later in prison. And it's like, I don't believe that. Like, I'm sorry. I know. I'm sorry, I think that's such bullshit. You sat and watched people in the most agonizing pain.

Starting point is 01:54:28 Yeah, that's fucked. Vomiting up everything in their body to the point where they were probably vomiting up like actual body fluids that they need to survive. Crying, sobbing, begging for help, shedding themselves grasping their stomachs and agony and excruciating pain, 80 year old women, your own fucking mother, and you're sitting in a pew and telling me, well, it's fine. Yeah, that's like, no. I'm sorry, I don't buy that. And you took people's loved

Starting point is 01:55:00 ones away in like the last years of their lives when they could have had them longer. You can't do it. You can't do what you've done and then tell me that everything's fine now. You can't do it. It's like, no, it's not. And like to kill Lily too, when you were a child would blame like silly things that happened on herself

Starting point is 01:55:18 and just take them away for you. It's just, I don't, that doesn't make sense to me, which I'm like, okay, girl, like think what you want to think, but like there's no way that you're getting out of this. Well, and I just don't understand the like, like you're supposed to live by a certain code and they didn't. And then it's okay. And then it's okay. And then it's okay.

Starting point is 01:55:37 But I don't get that. I just don't understand. No, I don't understand it either. This doesn't make any sense to me, but like, go off. But while the locals struggled with the idea of one of their own having done any of this, the prosecutor's office and Velma's defense team began building their cases. For district attorney Joe Britt, it was a pretty simple case.

Starting point is 01:55:55 Slim Dunk. Velma Barfield was a confess murderer of at least one, but possibly as many as six, who killed for reasons so trivial as they annoyed her. The victim annoyed her, literally. In fact, Britt was so convinced the jury would only see Velma as guilty. He skipped his opening remarks altogether

Starting point is 01:56:14 and went right into calling his first witness. He was like, I don't even know how to waste my breath. From one witness to the next, Joe Britt laid out a narrative where Velma had stolen from her boyfriend in order to get her pills and then killed him in order to prevent him from discovering the theft. It was pretty black and white. Yeah.

Starting point is 01:56:32 As evidence of her misdeeds, Britt produced the four checks Velma had stolen from Stuart and the defense immediately objected pointing out that in order for the checks to be relevant, Brent needed to point out to prove that Stuart didn't authorize her to sign on his behalf, which they were like, you can't do that. You can't prove that. He's not here. And he said, I do not intend to introduce them to the... I merely wanted them marked for identification.

Starting point is 01:56:58 And this actually turned out to be Joe Britz's most successful strategy in the courtroom, because he skirted dangerously close to prejudicing the jury. Oh, okay. Just a little bit, but it kind of worked. Okay, I mean, in this case, you're like, God, I need you to do.

Starting point is 01:57:16 Now, Britt relied on this same tactic a few days later when he called John Henry and record Lee's daughter, Margie Pittman to the stand. Because she killed record as well, right? She did not. No. I don't believe so. I think she did.

Starting point is 01:57:33 I think she killed record after she killed John, because that was the one where they convinced her to stay, right? Yeah, she stayed, but then I think she ended up moving on to that nursing job and moving into the trailer before she could do anything. Oh, okay, okay. Sorry. It gets confusing. There's a lot of people. Yeah. Now, her name is Margie Pittman. They brought her to the stand and they drew, they drew immediate objections from the defense who argued that Brit was attempting to use evidence

Starting point is 01:57:58 from an unrelated crime because they're talking about Stuart's murder. Yeah. To prove intent to the murder of Stuart Taylor. And defense attorney Bob Jacobson said, Mr. Britt is trying to try five or six cases here rather than one. The judge agreed, but allowed Britt to continue presenting evidence from the other cases as a means of establishing Velma's pattern of intent.

Starting point is 01:58:20 Yeah. Which I think is right. I think that's fair. Now arguing in Velma's defense, Bob Jacobson presented an equally simple case to the jury. He said she was raised by an extremely violent man who terrorized the entire household. And so she went on to develop mental illness and a severe drug addiction and adulthood that caused her to lose control and made her psychotic and violent. So he wasn't arguing that she hadn't murdered the steward. No. He was saying she did it and that she basically, the insanity thing.

Starting point is 01:58:48 Now Jacobson noted that his client had, like we said, killed Stuart Taylor, but she had done so in a psychotic manic state and therefore could not be held accountable for her actions. I don't agree. Yeah. Now, moreover, Velmo had maintained that she had always intended only to make her victim sick. Remember, I was just going to make him sick, right? Just to buy myself enough time to give back that money. Not true. She never intended to kill them, even though she did it six times the exact same way. That's the thing.

Starting point is 01:59:19 And again, that was the problem. Is that Brent had already established that she had done this six times, same outcome every time. So he was like, I don't know about that. And she actually was on the stand at one point, Velma. They brought her on the stand and she was very combative. She did not help herself. She came off as a real asshole.

Starting point is 01:59:40 So for cases complicated and emotionally charged as Velma's was, it was pretty surprising because it moved pretty quickly. So, the trial began on November 27, 1978, both sides rested within a week. Wow. And the jury was also quick to make their decision. They deliberated for a little over an hour and returned a verdict of guilty. Yeah. And then they deliberated a little more than three hours

Starting point is 02:00:05 before delivering a recommendation that Velma be executed in the state's gas chamber. Shit. Now, when the verdict and sentence was delivered, Velma was emotionless. She just sat there. She was chewing gum. She was sitting there, but her daughter Kim

Starting point is 02:00:21 was sitting a little few rows behind her and just started sobbing. Of course. And I just can't even imagine. Because it's like she already was dealing with such a strange relationship. Yeah. A strange relationship. And now this comes out.

Starting point is 02:00:32 And you find this out. And find out she killed your grandmother. Oh my god. I didn't even think of that. You got along with it. I didn't even think of that. Yeah. Like the what a heavy your grandmother and multiple like your your mother killed elderly people

Starting point is 02:00:47 including your grandmother. Wow. Yeah. So for prosecutor Joe Brit who was an ardent proponent of the death penalty, the verdict was a huge victory. He said if there's ever been a case deserving imposition of the ultimate penalty, this is it. He told recorders through a callous, malicious, indifferent act killed him, Mrs. Barfield killed him dead, and he's gone for eternity, which I was like, I know that's what death is, but. Exactly.

Starting point is 02:01:13 Thank you. And it was just him emphasizing, I think, but I was like, yeah, I could have done without it. I don't have to get flurry with it. Now, removed from the courtroom and taken to a maximum security wing at the Women's Correctional Center in Raleigh, Velmo became the second woman on death row since the state reintroduced a capital punishment the previous year.

Starting point is 02:01:32 Wow. During a jailhouse interview that they did, I think about a week after the sentence was passed, Velmo told reporters she was guilty of the murder and she said if she was given a choice, she was not interested in appealing her sentence. She said, personally, I don't want an appeal. Personally, I'd rather go ahead. The day is February 9th. And that was the day they had sent for her execution.

Starting point is 02:01:51 Jesus. Whether she meant what she told the reporters, or was just kind of like, talking a big game in front of cameras, nobody really knows. But Vela did appear remarkably calm in the days after the sentence was delivered. Well, she had attempted to take her life long time, so it seems like maybe she was ready to...

Starting point is 02:02:09 She said, I know people are saying, poor old Velma sitting up there on death row, and I was like, I don't know if many people are saying that, but okay. Yeah, I just said, but I wish they wouldn't, because I know when the final breath comes, it will just be goodbye here and hello on the other side. I have joy and speakable. I don't know what other side you're prepared for. I don't know, especially with what you believe in. I don't know if you're going to the great one here. Now, after being delivered to the Women's Correctional Center, she became sober for the first time. Wow, look sharp.

Starting point is 02:02:40 And told the press that she had traded all of that for a newfound commitment to Christ. She said, I'm off drugs, thank the Lord. And she said, I turned all this trouble over to the hands of the Lord months before the trial. He doesn't promise to go part of the way and then drop us. Okay. So it's like, okay.

Starting point is 02:02:58 Well, Valma may have been ready to go forward with the execution as it had been scheduled. Turned out the state was not ready to do that. Following her conviction and the sentencing, her case became the subject of many appeals on her behalf in the years that followed. And the execution date got scheduled, rescheduled multiple times. There were tons of stays of execution pending the outcome of her appeals. So there can be appeals placed even if you don't on your behalf. It can turn things change to when like laws change or bills go into effect. Yeah.

Starting point is 02:03:28 They will take another look at the case just even if you don't care. Even it out with the, because they have to even it out with the laws that are happening or anything. And in that time, Velma's story and defense had time to change and evolve from what was presented in the court a few years later. Oh God. had time to change and evolve from what was presented in the court a few years later. In her 1978 defense, Bob Jacobson argued that Valmo was an emotionally disturbed. Essentially, he called her a drug addict who was unable to control her actions. He was really pushing that kind of narrative. It could not be held responsible for the outcome of anything she did. But by 1980, Velma had become a born again, Christian

Starting point is 02:04:07 and was no longer welcoming an execution. Oh. She said, I know I've been forgiven, just like I have been able to forgive all the people I felt at her, me so many times, and those I felt so bitter towards. I always wonder how people know so strongly that they've been forgiven.

Starting point is 02:04:22 Well, and also, it's a lot to be. You know who hasn't forgiven you? I'm pretty sure the family members of the people you killed. Yeah. I think those are the ones you need to worry about forgiving you.

Starting point is 02:04:31 Probably. But she doesn't care about that. She's cute. I forgive myself. It's good. So me, that's just like straight up delusion. And I love to miss this. I also love the like, what a shit

Starting point is 02:04:42 tastic way of saying it too, is not like I've been forgiven. She's like, I've been forgiven and don't worry. I've forgiven everybody else too. And it's like, oh, okay. I'm really glad that you've forgiven everybody, Balma. Yes, same old Balma. Now around the same time, it seemed Balma had also changed her mind about now wanting to appeal her sentence. Ah.

Starting point is 02:04:59 And in 1980, she filed an appeal with the fourth circuit court of appeals in a petition for a writ of habeas corpus. Among other things, the petition argued that Velma had received inadequate representation and her rights had been violated when the trial judge refused her request for additional counsel at the state's expense. In defense of this, of his effective defense, Bob Jacobson explained to the court that Velma was a very difficult client in a very difficult case. In an additional court appointed attorneys were unlikely to have made the defense any more

Starting point is 02:05:30 successful. He said, I counseled her to be a sympathetic witness to look like somebody's mother in a vote sympathy. And he said, frankly, I felt she would get into an argument with district attorney Joe Freeman Britt and my fears came to pass. And he was referring to Velma being so combative and so fucking unpleasant on the stand when she was being questioned by Brit. Yeah.

Starting point is 02:05:53 He was like, be a mom. Like, act some pathetic. Do you know that? And she was just like, fuck, you guys. Like, I don't give a shit. Now, the court rejected the appeal and upheld the verdict and the sentencing, writing, when the petitioner's forecast of evidence is assessed, and it's in its best light possible,

Starting point is 02:06:11 in conjunction with those elements of respondents opposing materials that are not disputed, it simply fails to raise more than a basis for bald conjecture. Now, by the early 1980s, Velma's case became a major talking point for politicians in North Carolina, in particular Governor Jim Hunt during his re-election campaign against Senator Jesse Helms in 1984. Hunt tried to minimize the issue of the death penalty during the campaign. He said, I think the effect of the death penalty will be to cause less taking of life when people do premeditate and plan in advance.

Starting point is 02:06:49 That is untrue. Yeah. Yeah. Doesn't do shit, sir. Supporters of capital punishment agreed with one proponent of Elma's sentence telling reporters, we live by the law or we go into a country of anarchism.

Starting point is 02:07:04 Okay. Uh-huh. It's like, uh, studies have said that it doesn't help. So, just saying, by 1984, Velma had exhausted her appeals and barring a stay of execution or clemency from the governor was scheduled to die on November 2, 1984. And although clemency was very unlikely by that fall, Stuart's mother and daughter, as well as nine family members

Starting point is 02:07:31 of the other victims, met with the governor and urged him not to interfere with the execution. That's how they even had to do that. They were worried that he was going to suddenly step out. Stuart's daughter, Alice, said, she's an outstanding liar. A serial killer does not want help. They enjoy killing. And Velma Barfield enjoys killing. And that is the truth. I agree with Alice. Lawyers working. And like I, like we've said this many times about the death penalty, we're standing by like, I agree with her on that sentiment that I, I don't believe she

Starting point is 02:08:02 should have left Yale. No, I don't either. I think I'm not a place where I feel like the death penalty for me is so gray and like more like case by case. Yeah. In this case, I tend to agree with it. Really? Yeah. See, I think she should have just been in prison. I think she didn't give a shit for what she did. So it was like, yeah. A lot of times I want people to remain in prison. So they have to think about it all the time. Yeah. I think it sounds to me like she didn't think about it very often. She didn't give a shit. That's true.

Starting point is 02:08:29 But lawyers working on Velma's behalf had argued tirelessly first day in the week's leading up to her execution. But on November 1st, Velma accepted her fate and asked them to stop. The next morning at 2.15 a.m., Marge of Elmobarfield died by lethal injection at North Carolina's central prison. She was the first woman executed in the United States in 22 years. Wow. And what one witness said I didn't notice any kind of suffering at all. She just seemed to relax. Yeah. I don't see the justice in that fucking case because it's like she and it's and it's not even done. But oh my god. We're almost done. But But like that that's where I don't I think where I like I've gotten off the death toll because I'm like there's no justice in that. Yeah.

Starting point is 02:09:18 What the witness just said there's no suffering and else she's relaxed. But who knows what her victims went through fucking agony? Oh, yeah. In their final moments. But it's like, was she suffering when she was sitting in person? I would rather her just sit in there, I mean, give her a few more years. Sure she would. I see your point.

Starting point is 02:09:35 You know, I'm just like, I'm like, let her sit around and have nothing to do. To me, I feel like there's no, in Velma's case, no justice with that. There's really no justice anywhere because you can't have justice when six people were fucking horrifically murdered. That's like, there really is no justice anywhere. And it's like, I don't want to want, it's, it's so hard because it's like you, obviously, you're not like, you know, give her arsenic poisoning and let her die that way. Like, that's fucked

Starting point is 02:10:01 up. But like, like, it's like a human being, you know what I mean? But it's like, I'd rather her just be bye. See you later. Well, I don't know how I would, I think you wouldn't know how you would feel as it happened to you. And again, I'm not a family member, so. That's the thing.

Starting point is 02:10:17 I speak from an outside position never having had to deal with somebody taking my family member away. And I do wonder, and this is just like a pure thought of, I don't know, if I was a family member of one of those people that she killed, what I want her killed. Like, is that justice? You know, like, what I want her still to be able to breathe

Starting point is 02:10:37 oxygen that my family should be in. I have no idea. So it's like, I can speak and like, I fully recognize the privilege of being able to speak from a place where my family member was not taken by a murder Right, right. So it's like I'm not gonna sit here and say I totally understand what I would do and that's why I'm like Yeah, and I got to give a 10 whatever the family members want I Tend to agree with yeah, even in this case the family members didn't want her execution stopped

Starting point is 02:11:04 That's what they wanted right then that's that's what I have to go with. Like even in this case, the family members didn't want her execution stopped. That's what they wanted. Right. Then that's what I have to go with. And in a way is that justice, is that a slice of justice because they had to say in that. Because they got to say in it, because even like in the Boston bombing case, the family members came forward and said they didn't want him executed.

Starting point is 02:11:23 Right. And I was like, then don't execute it. Like if that's what they want, like, I almost feel like it kind of should lie with the family members. I know. I know. I feel like they'll come out. Me and yeah, like a jury maybe, and this is just me thinking like a jury convict.

Starting point is 02:11:38 And then if the family members that are remaining decide, yeah, the fate, but it can get so. Yeah. So fucking messy. But it's like, I don't know. That's the thing. It's so hard. That's why I'm always shocked when somebody can have such a black and white opinion about things.

Starting point is 02:11:51 Yeah. Because I'm like, it's just so much gray. I feel like it's hard for black and white. I feel like it's hard for black and white. Human condition is an odd and easy thing to just put into boxes, I feel like. So it's like, this is not. Because even within a family, people might disagree. Exactly. That's the thing. And it's all really, you know, what you've dealt with.

Starting point is 02:12:12 So it's like fucked up. For anybody who's had to be in that position, I'm sorry, you've ever had to be in that position. Because again, I don't know. It's that must be an impossible position to be in. But just before the doctors did execute her, Warden Nathan Rice asked her if there was anything she wanted to say, and she said, I want to say that I'm sorry for the hurt that I've caused. I know that everybody has gone through a lot of pain, all the families connected, and I'm sorry.

Starting point is 02:12:39 That was nice, but she used her final words for that, I guess. Because some of them don't. Yes, I know. I'm really all don't. Now later that day, Ronnie Burke spoke to reporters about his family, his mother's final days. And he said, I want people to know she wanted to live very badly. She wanted to live for her grandchildren. We miss her already.

Starting point is 02:12:57 And that's really sad. And that's what makes me say that's the thing. And that's where you, that's where you do so many parts that you're saying, well, fuck. And it's like that's because her kids didn't deserve that. And I think, and again, I'm going to go with, you know, the victims' family members here I'll never go against them for what they wanted and they wanted that to happen. And that is perfectly fine. But in a way, the death penalty can be tricky because you can't reverse it.

Starting point is 02:13:21 And there are victims where like there's victims that were killed, but I would say her children are victims as well. There's far reaching fuck up a re that happens or something like that happens. And there's so many different, like a nasty onion of just layers of people affected by it. And they all get different treatment. Right.

Starting point is 02:13:43 Like it's like the kids get different treatment and then the victims family. Like, there's so many different layers here. Just that's sad. That makes me over all her children never got what they should have. My heart breaks from obviously for the victims families. Oh, my heart breaks over her kids. Yeah. Because like we said throughout this whole thing, they just tried to be the best son and

Starting point is 02:14:03 daughter they could. Yeah. Two days later, after the execution, Velma Barfield was buried beside her first husband, Thomas Burke, in a funeral attended by nearly 200 people. Wow. And in the Eulogy, Reverend Philip Carter noted that Velma was no stranger to suffering, but during her six years in prison, she had become a born again Christian and helped many of the other inmates at the Correctional Center for Women. He said she said she wanted to be known as a good Christian and nothing else.

Starting point is 02:14:33 That's true. That's what Ronnie told reporters. And I was like, unfortunately, that is not what she's going to be known as. And you can't wipe away. He was hoping that the good that his mother had done in the last years of her life would offset a little bit of the pain he had to go she had caused which like that's definitely a child speaking of his or not a child. I mean like his inner child is in her child speaking for his mother. Absolutely, which I can understand, but unfortunately she's a serial killer. And that will mean she has. For what she did to those families. Unfucking thinkable deeds. And she has shattered countless lives. Yeah.

Starting point is 02:15:11 And I mean, she sat there and watched these people go through something that I couldn't watch my worst enemy go through. So wow. Velma, yeah. I told you this was a real interesting though. Like, she's very interesting to hear a real ride. Yeah, because in the way you were saying,

Starting point is 02:15:33 like, it seemed like she wasn't capable of love with what she did to people that she claimed to love. And then she did seem like she could love with the way that she treated her kids. Yeah. She treated them badly in certain areas of life where like she just expected to be able to live with them and fuck up their lives. But then she took care of them as children and felt physically ill when she was away from them. And it's like it looks like when she, you know, when she like found Jesus or whatever she did in prison. It's like she seemed like she was trying to do better things like in there.

Starting point is 02:16:05 And it's like, so would she have just, you can never take away what she did, but it's like could she have been imprisoned for the rest of her life and maybe at least, reformed to the point of like, you look at it and go, well, okay. Like, you know, like that turned around, but she, well, okay, like, you know, like that, it turned around, but she's, but she's in prison, you know, like, I do think I know a society we

Starting point is 02:16:30 need to be more open to the idea that people can be reforms. Yeah. And I think even as a human myself, I need to be more open to that idea. It's hard because some people can. Then that's the thing. That's the thing. It's like, not everybody can. I don't believe at least. I know I think there are some people who trust me. We've covered some of them. Yeah. That there's no fucking way. But I do think we need to explore it more.

Starting point is 02:16:50 Yeah. You know, I mean, everything needs such an overall. Yeah. It really does. Like the justice system is an extreme need of an overall. This one really got me thinking. Yeah, it does. This one, because it's a strange one.

Starting point is 02:17:01 It's layered. And a disturbing one. Yeah. She's very awful. Well, like, and it's like, and who knows, could, if she ever got out, like, could she have really been reformed? Or would she have done this again? Would somebody fucking annoy her and she'd be like,

Starting point is 02:17:16 I don't think she should be. I don't think she could have been let out. I think so. I think she had to, that disposition, I don't think was going anywhere, but maybe she could have been contained in prison and been maybe more of a like a more of a I don't know I don't even know how to explain it like a decent member of you know society in there somewhere but like I don't think she should have been let back out into ours.

Starting point is 02:17:43 Yeah, but fuck. But like, I don't think she should have been let back out into ours. Yeah. But fuck a damn yeah, the wheels are turning for sure. Hope yours are too. That was captivating for sure. Oh, good. And I'm really sorry to all of the victims that she but she took your loved ones from and her kids. Yeah. Wow.

Starting point is 02:18:01 So with that, we hope you keep listening and we hope you keep it. We're but that's a weird thing. You go by arsenic poison when somebody annoys you because that's really not a way Yeah. Wow. So with that, we hope you keep listening and we hope you keep it weird. But that's a weird thing. You go by arsenic poison when somebody annoys you because that's really not a way to handle anything. Maybe go to talk therapy or I don't know get a smoothie get a smoothie. Thank you. Hey, Prime Members! You can listen to Morvid, Early, and Add Free on Amazon Music. Download the Amazon Music app today, or you can listen Add Free with Wondery Plus and Apple podcasts. Before you go, tell us about yourself by completing a short survey at Wondery.com slash survey. Hi, I'm Lindsey Graham, the host of Wondery's podcast American scandal. We bring to life some of the biggest controversies in US history, presidential lies, corruption and sports,

Starting point is 02:19:18 corporate fraud. Our newest season looks at Aaron Hernandez, a rising pro football star who shocked the sports world when he was arrested for a brutal murder in 2013. Fans, media, and Hernandez's own family couldn't understand how a beloved and respected player for the New England Patriots with a $40 million contract could commit such a heinous crime. But there had been warning signs all along the way, and they pointed to a much larger health crisis among current and former NFL players. Follow American Scandal on the Wonder App or wherever you get your podcasts.

Starting point is 02:19:50 You can binge American Scandal, Aaron Hernandez, early and ad-free right now on Wonder RePlus.

Morbid - Episode 521: Velma Barfield

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