Morbid - Episode 564: Fred & Rose West (Part 1)

Episode Date: May 16, 2024

In this four part series, we dive into the horrific crimes of Fred & Rose West. We begin by exploring Fred's formative years which laid a foundation for his callousness and depraved appetites.Thank you to the wondrous Dave White of Bring Me the Axe Podcast for Research!ReferencesAmis, Martin. 2000. When darkness met light. May 11. Accessed March 21, 2024. https://www.theguardian.com/theguardian/2000/may/11/features11.g2.BBC News. 1998. Fred West 'admitted killing waitress'. March 25. Accessed March 19, 2024. http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/69928.stm.—. 2001. How many more did Fred West kill? September 27. Accessed March 19, 2024. http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/1567038.stm.—. 2021. The 12 victims of Fred and Rosemary West. May 27. Accessed March 18, 2024. https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-gloucestershire-57182844.Bennett, Will. 1995. Step-daughter Charmaine was first to die. November 22. Accessed March 19, 2024. https://www.independent.co.uk/news/stepdaughter-charmaine-was-first-to-die-1583071.html.Birmingham Evening Mail. 1974. "Missing girls theory." Birmingham Evening Mail, January 7: 1.Birmingham Post. 1968. "Missing waitress mystery deepens." Birmingham Post, January 23: 2.—. 1974. "Student missing for six days may return ton university-police." Birmingham Post, January 2: 2.—. 1968. "Yard detectives join search for Gloucester girl." Birmingham Post, January 9: 1.Campbell, Duncan. 1995. "How a string of girls came to die in depraved and appalling circumstances." The Guardian, October 7.Duce, Richard. 1995. "West's suicide avenged killings, QC tells jurors." The Times, November 16.Duce, Richard, and Bill Frost. 1995. "Court told of depravity at 25 Cromwell Street." The Times, October 7: 4.Evening Post. 1968. "Helicopter joins hunt for Mary." Evening Post, January 8: 1.Evening Standard. 1974. "Have you spotted this girl?" Evening Standard, July 4: 18.Frost, Bill. 1995. "Cromwell Street murders case man is dead." The Times, Janaury 2.Frost, Bill, and Richard Duce. 1995. "I'm being made a scapegoat, says West." The Times, November 2.—. 1995. "No place for sentiment, West jurors are told." The Times, October 4.—. 1995. "West: I fell under Fred's spell." The Times, October 31.Gloucester Echo. 1994. "Did builder know Mary?" Gloucester Echo, March 8: 3.—. 1994. "Graden bodies: Who were they?" Gloucester Echo, March 2: 1.Gloucestershire Echo. 1995. "From angelic child to coldest of killers." Gloucestershire Echo 5.—. 1995. "Fred West found dead." Gloucestershire Echo, January 2: 1.—. 1995. "I'll see you in court, Rose." Gloucestershire Echo, January 4: 1.Knight, Adam. 2014. Fred West's brother denies incest claims. November 7. Accessed March 17, 2024. https://www.herefordtimes.com/news/11587578.fred-wests-brother-denies-incest-claims/.Lee, Adrian, Tim Jones, and Damian Whitworth. 1996. "Fred West's brother hangs himself." The Times, November 29.Ovington, Paul. 1974. "Hunt steps up as fear grows for Lucy, 21." Western Daily Press and Times, January 4: 1.Sounes, Howard. 1995. Fred & Rose: The Full Story of Fred and Rose West and the Gloucester House of Horrors. New York, NY: Open Road Media.United Press International. 1995. "British jury convicts West of 10 murders." UPI Archive, November 22.West, Mae, and Neil McKay. 2018. Love as Always, Mum: The True and Terrible Story of Surviving a Childhood with Fred and Rose West. London, UK: Seven Dials Press.Williams, Martin. 1994. "'Our sister is still alive'." Gloucester Echo, February 26: 1.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Wondery Plus subscribers can listen to Morbid early and ad free. Join Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or on Apple podcasts. You're listening to a Morbid Network podcast. For fans of heart racing bone chilling and mind bending stories, Audible has everything you need. Audible is the leader in audiobooks, so you'll always find the best and freshest selection of mysteries and thrillers to choose from. Sometimes you just want to get lost in a classic whodunit, and sometimes you want to get wrapped up in a twisted new mystery where tension's high

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of you have asked for for a long, long time. A long time. And I've been avoiding it just simply because this is a tough one. It's going to be a tough one. It's going to be a tough one for all of us. It's going to be a long, long tough one. It's gonna be a tough one. It's gonna be a tough one for all of us. It's gonna be a long, long tough one. It is. It's gonna be a little long. It's gonna be tough. And we are covering Fred and Rosemary West. Oh, goodness.

We're gonna break this up, because there's a lot to this story. Fair warning right off the bat. So many triggers. I mean, all of them, all the triggers. This is a fucking terrible story. They are fucking terrible people. And it's a tragedy all the way around. So just, you know, just know that going in. Buckle up up buttercup. But I need to start out by recommending a book that was written by the West's daughter, Anne Marie West.

Whoa. And it's called Out of the Shadows. She endured things that no one should ever even have to think of in the darkest recesses of their minds. And I urge you to get her book and read her story from her point of view. Yeah, I feel like that's so important. Definitely go find it. We can obviously tell it from research

and news reports and other books, but she lived it. So definitely go read her book. Definitely. But let's get into this because I don't even have it in me to banter before this one because it's, it's a lot. Well, this happened in the, so this is actually happened in the nineties. What? Or it kind of ended in the nineties, I should say.

I didn't, for some reason, like in my head it was like 60s, 70s that it ended. Yeah, I mean, it spans over a long period of time. Yeah. But it kind of all culminates in the early 90s. In May 1992, Gloucester, UK police, and I had to look this up because I was like, do you guys say it like we do? Massachusetts has a Gloucester too, we say it Gloucester, but I was like, do you guys say it Gloucester or something?

You know, like, I don't know. You say Gloucester. So Gloucester, UK police received an anonymous tip claiming that Fred West had been sexually abusing his 13 year old daughter, Louise, and that his wife had been physically abusing the girl. Oh God. The tip was the one thing they needed that initiated an investigation into allegations of abuse, which soon unfolded into one of truly the most shocking

serial murder cases in England's history, where Fred and Rose West were suspected of killing 13 young women, including one of their own children. I thought that they had killed one of their own children. In the months after this tip, investigators would eventually exhume nine bodies that had actually been buried in the West's own

backyard. Nine bodies in their backyard and evidence of several other horrible murders committed by Fred. Some going as far back as the late sixties. Right. I thought so. So that's why this spans over such a long period of time. So you weren't wrong. Now let's start this off by finding out who the fuck is Fred? Who is this fucking monster of a human being? So Fred West was born in much Markle and that's in, I'm going to try to say this correctly because I appreciate and respect our UK listeners, Herefordshire, England. And I hope I said that right for you guys. Because, you know, again, we live in Massachusetts. We also have weird town names and people get them wrong all the time. So get it. I get it. So Herefordshire, England on September 29th, 1941.

What would that make him? He's not a Virgo, right? He might be a Libra. Because Virgo, doesn't that end like on the 21st? Yeah. Oh no, is he a Libra, Mikey? He might be. I'm not positive though. September 21st? September 29th. Oh, he's a Libra.

He's a Libra. Yeah. I'm sorry. I'm sorry you share a sign. But he was the second of eight children born to Walter and Daisy West, which like Walter and Daisy sound adorable, you know, like those names together, you know, it just feels like Walter and Daisy. Like, I love that. Yeah. It sounds like, and like you would never know. Oh, you know, now two of his siblings actually died in childhood. Wow. So as a farmer, because Walter was a farmer, as a farmer in a very rural part of the country,

he was kind of struggling to make a living for that many children. And he was kind of barely able to provide for this family. That just kept rapidly growing. And the West family often drank whatever unpasteurized milk Walter could bring home from the farm. That's like a thing right now. Oh, I know.

Raw milk. Yeah, it's not good for you. No, it's not. Don't do that. Don't. And they got by on fruits and vegetables that they grew in their own garden. Despite living in a actually relatively big home at Moor Court Farm, where Fred was employed, the living space was cramped because it was so many people.

The children were typically kind of like all crammed into like one or two bedrooms. It was tough. Also bathrooms at the cottage consisted of really nothing more than a bucket that had to be emptied a lot of times a day. That's not sanitary. And when Fred was born, it was one year after the death of Daisy's first born daughter. Oh wow.

Her name was Violet and she died a few days after her birth, which is tragic. Fred was, according to his other siblings, always their mother's favorite child. They could do nothing wrong. Years later, Fred's younger brother Doug would tell a reporter that Fred was Mammy's blue-eyed

boy. Mammy. And in fact, in years after that, people would comment that at times, Fred and his mother's relationship seemed a little too close. Yeah. It was off putting. Okay. That's all.

Like from the outside point of view, they were like, it was just a little unsettling. It's getting ugly. Yeah. Daisy's sister-in-law, Edna Hill, said, quote, Fred came first with Daisy, even in front of Walter. Oh. And it's just like, I don't know if they should even be in the same category here.

Yeah. I know. And the answer is they shouldn't. Yeah. Maybe because of his closeness to his mother, Fred really never formed a bond with his father. They did not really have anything. And his father was also a very strict disciplinarian and didn't like

that Daisy was, was said to coddle, especially their eldest son at the time. Now, despite being prioritized and adored at home, Fred's reputation pretty much everywhere else was not great. Okay. Not well bitch. Yeah, not well bitch. At home loved him. They loved him or excuse me, his mother loved him. But everywhere else, no. According to author Howard Soons, Fred's classmates looked at him as being dim, dirty and always in trouble because of his slovenly performance. Slovenly performance.

Yep, slovenly performance, and he was dim and dirty. Dim is such a cunty, like, way to tell someone they're dumb. Yeah, it really is. It's just like, you're really dim. Like, when somebody says, like, don't be dim. It's like, ooh. It's kind of like on the same, same level as, like, dingbat. It really is. Because to me, it gives the, it gives the visual of, like, ooh. It's kind of like on the same level as like Dingbat. It really is. Because to me, it gives the visual of like a light bulb that's just about to burn out.

So they're like, you're fucking dim. Like you're barely hanging on to that one little piece of light. Poor you. But Daisy would have to defend her son against, you know, the things that the teachers would say. The teachers would be like, he's not doing anything. Like he's really not moving forward. He's slovenly.

He's kind of just like hanging out. He's a sloth, this guy. He's a sloth. And his mother Daisy would have to defend him. And that kind of only made things worse because then he was labeled at school as a mummy's boy and he was mocked and bullied at school. Which is sad.

Yeah, which for the kid, sad. Right. As he got older, Fred only really became more isolated on the farm. And he was mocked and bullied at school. Which is sad. Yeah, which for the kid, sad. As he got older, Fred only really became more isolated on the farm. He didn't really have a lot of friends or acquaintances to pass the time with. So he would just kind of help his father out on the farm and he would, you know, work with his brothers, like that kind of thing. Yeah. And despite like hanging out together all the time and doing stuff on the farm and really

just being in a cramped space together, Fred's relationship with his brothers, John and Doug, was kind of strained and there was a lot of arguments that almost always escalated into physical fights with little provocation on Fred's part. Fred could get provoked very easily. He would snap. And Doug told reporters after Fred's death, because Fred is dead. I'll give you that in the beginning.

Fred's gone. Bye, Fred. Bye. So that's your least little piece of like, okay, at least he's not around anymore. Right. So Doug, his brother, told reporters after Fred had died, I know it sounds rich now,

but I disliked Fred from the outset. So he's like, I know because he's dead. I I disliked Fred from the outset. So he's like, I know because he's dead. I've been new. It sounds a little wild, but like, and I know because we know all that we know about him, I realize this sounds like I didn't like him from the first place, but he's like, I truly did not like my brother from the outset. He me out.

He sucked. Like his own brother is like, I didn't like this kid from the beginning. And although Fred was the, was like kind of like the biggest of the boys, like he was, and he was the one that was provoked the easiest. He was also kind of bullied by his younger brother, John. And Doug recalled John used to beat the hell out of Fred. And so like they really got into it. Damn. And they were usually like the fights would get broken up by their dad who unfortunately depending on his mood at that time would punish them by whipping them with a belt.

Now by the time he reached 15 years old, it was pretty clear that Fred had really no interest in school or learning. He wasn't succeeding at all academically. So he dropped out and began working alongside his father as a general laborer at Moor Court Farm. Okay. While it's clear that Fred's intellectual development was definitely somewhat stunted, there's also a question as to whether he was stunted in other areas like social development,

particularly with regard to sex later. Okay. Following his arrest, he told Fred told interviewing officers that his mother, and this is a trigger warning for sexual abuse. There's going to be a lot of that in this. So just upfront. Just please know that upfront. I'm going to try to warn you when it comes, but it's going to happen. It's all over the place. Yeah. It happens. And it's fucking awful. He told officers once he was arrested later as an adult. He said that his mother had sexually abused him

beginning when he was 12 years old. Wow. And he said, quote, his father had sex with underage girls and had taught him to have sex with sheep. What? That's what he told officers when he was arrested. Oh my God.

Mm-hmm. You said sheep? I said sheep. Okay. Yep. Years later in an interview though, and this is that remember that came from Fred. Right. Right. I want to be clear that Fred West is not a reliable source of information. He's a fucking demon. And it's like, so don't, because Doug West, and again, none of us were there. I don't know what happened in that house. I'm not saying anybody's right here. We're just giving you all the viewpoints.

I wanna give you all what they all have to say because it's important, because nobody wants, he's not the most credible source of that family for sure. But Doug West, the brother, in an interview years later, very much denied any of his claims. He told the documentary crew in 2014, none of us was ever abused in any way by anybody. As far as mom and Fred and dad and animals, that was just fantasy by somebody. And that's what he has to say about it. And he lived in the house, so I'm just, you know,

that's what both of them say. Yeah, both sides should be represented. And Doug chalked up these and other claims as just exaggerations and lies. And he said, we all know what a fantasizer Fred is. Which we will come to find out. And that is the 100% truth. So whether Fred's more wild claims about sex were true or not, by his mid-teen years, he

had developed a very strong interest in women and girls. Though the interest was rarely, if ever, returned. According to Soons, when the boys would go into town to socialize, quote, Fred was always chatting up the girls, but his manner was crude, and they considered him boorish and unpleasant. Oh, no. These teenagers ridiculed Fred as a country bumpkin. That's not nice.

Fred's behavior didn't do anything to endear himself to girls. It doesn't sound like it. The source says if Fred saw a girl he liked at the club or a local dance, he simply grabbed at her. It did not matter to Fred whether she was interested in him or not. Sir, get your filthy paws off of us. He's just gross. He's gross.

And entitled, evidently. Very entitled and aggressive. All of the above. Now, among the few things that did interest young Fred was motorcycles. And he loved going to the motorcycle shops off of High Street and nearby Leadbury. And to him, the vehicles were kind of like this freedom. They were like powerful, you know, all that stuff. Probably felt like it made him look cool.

He kind of felt like he was like oppressed on the farm by his parents. They were very strict. He felt like his mom was kind of like all over him all the time. So he looked at motorcycles as like this, like I can just go out in the open road. I get that. Welcome to the small town of Chinook where faith runs deep and secrets run dark.

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of two young black artists. Follow Blame It On The Fame on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts. You can listen to Blame It On The Fame early and ad free right now by joining Wondery Plus. At first, Daisy was of course not okay with Fred getting a bike, but she did relent eventually and he agreed to sell it if he ever got in an accident or got hurt. So on the evening of November 28th, 1958,

Fred was on his way back to the farm, riding his motorcycle that he had got, and was just a few hundred yards from home when he collided with a local girl who was riding a bicycle in the opposite direction. Oh no. The details are not super clear, but it's kind of unclear what actually caused the accident,

but it was significant enough to attract the attention of a local farmer who came to run for help. And the man first helped the girl who looked like, luckily she had only suffered a few minor scrapes and cuts. Oh good. She was okay. But then they turned to Fred and he was in way worse condition.

Oh no. He was motionless and a large pool of blood. She was okay. But then they turned to Fred and he was in way worse condition. He was motionless and a large pool of blood. When the ambulance arrived, his condition was considered very serious and he needed complex care. So they took him to one of the, instead of going to the local hospital, they went to 14 miles away to Hereford Hospital,

which was like a bigger hospital. Fred was unconscious at that hospital for several days. And as everyone grew more and more concerned that he might never wake up. Imagine. I know. Like obviously that would have been a loss for the family at that point in time. Exactly. But imagine what could have been avoided. But on the seventh day, he regained consciousness and slowly regained the ability to speak, to move. An experience he later said was like coming back from the dead.

While his parents were relieved that he had woken up, he was pretty beat up and he was covered in cuts and scrapes and had several broken bones, including a broken nose, arm, and one leg that had been so badly damaged. He had to wear a metal brace until it healed. Wow. He also suffered a significant head injury.

I was waiting for that. He actually fractured his skull. Oh, oh my gosh. It's unclear whether there was additional brain damage suffered by this particular injury, but the recovery process was slow and it was very painful and not great. And I'm sure it didn't do anything positive for him. And he ended up having a fear of hospitals that he had for the rest of his life. Oh, wow. Now, despite the injuries and the slow healing process, Fred did go out still while he was healing and went to clubs and pubs

around Ludbury. And it was at this time that people began to notice a very significant change in Fred's behavior, which is what makes me think that there had some brain damage. He used to be, he was aggressive with girls in the sense of like, you know, grabbing at them and all that shit. But he was also pretty avoidant of most people when he was out. Like he wasn't like a party animal before and he wasn't like getting into fights out and about.

He would get in fights with his, you know, brothers on the farm. But like out and about socializing, he was pretty like, nobody really noticed him, to be quite honest. But now he seemed much less restrained when it came to aggression. Like hungry for a fight.

Before, when other boys would like mock or make fun of him, or try to like start shit with him, he would just shirk, like shrink, he would shrink away and kind of let his brothers take care of it, because his brothers would stand up for him. Yeah. Because they're his brothers. After the accident though, he would respond very aggressively

and he would start fights, like he was, it was a very noticeable change that people saw. And the changes in Fred's personality and behavior might have had something to do with the accident, but I think they were also compounded with him getting more and more discontented living at home. I could see that. That makes sense. Obviously the, the head trauma is a magnificent part of this, but like that is, I think he was very discontented at home. He was going into like teen angst years.

All of that combining, I think was just a really bad storm. And in the late 1950s, Fred complained to one of his friends that he was deeply unhappy living at the farm and that he couldn't live under his parents' rules and restrictions anymore. Now, in 1960, Fred met 16-year-old Catherine Costello while the two were at a dance at Memorial Hall. She was actually known as Rena to friends and family, and she was staying with some

relatives in the area because she had moved from Scotland a short time earlier after what was said to be her defiant attitude and behavior had become too much for her single father to handle. From a very early age, Rena had been what they said about her, a difficult child. She was in trouble a lot for a lot of petty offenses like theft and fighting, like just always kind of in trouble, always getting into stuff, which had resulted in her being shuttled around a lot to various relatives, various schools, other authorities. Like she was always like, it sounds like they were trying to get it in check.

Yeah, they were trying to Fred, who'd never traveled further than Leadbury at the time or the farm. So it is a little bit, it's reminiscent of Ed Gein at this moment. Yeah, it very much is. But her life seemed very adventurous and like, wow, she's so worldly. Exciting. And she's like, she's rebellious and all that. So he was immediately smitten. From the moment they got together though, their relationship was tumultuous. Fred was immediately very demanding when it came to sex especially.

And Rena, who had experienced very little affection or positive attention in her life, because she would always been known as a problem kind of thing, she just kind of like gave into his demands all the time. That's really sad. Soons wrote, the relationship became so intense that Rena tattooed Fred's name on her arm using a sewing needle and black ink. Commitment. Yeah. Perhaps because it was so intense and the fact that she had been staying out most nights, Rena was eventually asked to leave her relatives' home and began sharing a

room with a friend at an inn in Leadbury. I think the relatives were like, this is too much. Yeah. Like you just carved his name into your arm. Yeah, this isn't going anywhere good. Unfortunately, that whole thing with her friend and Leadbury ended quickly because both of them were at were asked to leave after being said that they were disruptive and reckless and were irritating the other guests at the end at the end. They're like, you guys are a lot. You got to get it together.

But without any other options for housing, Rina packed her bags and returned to Scotland and that ended her relationship with Fred. With Rina gone, Fred shifted his very much unwanted attention back to the younger girls at the youth center. One evening in the fall of 1960, Fred was standing on the second floor landing of the building's fire escape and attempted to grab a girl who was standing near him. In response, this girl turned and hit Fred, sending him over the railing and falling one story to the ground below.

That girl's an icon. Violence is never the answer, of course. But don't grab that girl. Yeah. Don't grab that girl. Yeah. Don't grab that girl. You play stupid games. You win stupid prizes. Don't put your hands on her. And the distance of the fall hadn't been more than 10 feet, but Fred hit his head on the concrete again. Yeah. And for the second time in just a few years, he was unconscious and a need a medical treatment. Oh, that's not good.

Fred regained consciousness the following day, but this time there was almost certainly brain damage done. Almost immediately family members started noticing changes in his personality. Now he was, I mean, a split second away from anger, lashing out, aggression. I mean, it took nothing to set him off now. Before it was little provocation, now nothing. What is that when you get like too many head injuries, it's called something like it happens to football players sometimes. Yeah. CTE.

CTE. That's exactly what I'm thinking of. Yeah. Chronic Traumatic Encephalopathy. Yeah. Yeah. So yeah, it might be similar to something like that. I wonder if he eventually had that, like had CTE. Honestly, you wonder that. It's a very valid thing. Yeah.

I'm not armchair diagnosing. I'm just like, maybe. Just saying. Like the behavior does line up. Now beginning in 1961, Fred's unusual behavior became more apparent and problematic. He was very directionless at this time. He had very little to occupy his time. Wasn't really doing a whole lot. Yeah, because apparently if like CTE gets worse over time. Yeah. So I'm like,, I mean, he definitely got worse over time. I also never understand these people why they have kids,

but then they are so fucking put out by kids. And then the other parent will be like, well, I'm gonna take the kids and leave. And they're like, no, you're not taking my kids, you leave. And it's like, you're put out by those kids. Why do you just let those kids go with someone who actually wants to take care of them? Such an ego thing. It's so fucked up. So beginning in 1961, his kind of problematic behavior really went

up a notch because he was super directionless at this moment. Yeah, it sounds like it. He wants to get out of the farm, but he's not making any moves to do it. He's dropped out of school. He's not really endearing himself to people around him. He doesn't have a lot to occupy his time at this moment. Right. So he starts shoplifting. Oh, that will help everything. That will help. Yeah, that will give you direction. And in April, he had to make his first appearance in court because of it. Oh, wow. The shoplifting, while very frustrating to his parents, would turn out to honestly be

the least of Fred's troubles that year. Because in June, just a few months after the arrest for shoplifting, Fred's 13 year old sister Kitty disclosed to their mother, and again, a trigger warning. Oh no. 13 years old, that Fred had been sexually abusing her for months and that she'd become pregnant. Oh my God. Yes. Fred had been sexually abusing her for months and that she'd become pregnant. Oh my God. Yes. Oh my God.

Yeah. I told you this is really bad. Wow. Really bad case. Daisy, the mother, took the girl to be examined by a doctor and that initiated an investigation and Fred was soon arrested. Yeah. How the fuck does he make it out of that? The family was horrified. And obviously horrified, humiliated, shamed, all the things. Fred didn't understand why anyone was upset with him.

And that does make you wonder. It definitely concerns me. About his claims. For sure. According to students, he was, quote, belligerent with police, answering their questions as though they were completely unimportant. What? In fact, the more that investigators asked Fred about the allegations and interviewed

him, the clearer it became that his attitudes and interests around sex were bar from normal or average. Yeah, it sounds like it. Very, very abnormal attitudes about it. Fred acknowledged and was like, yeah, he said he had been molesting and assaulting young girls, young girls, multiple, for years, but he wasn't ashamed of his behavior.

He was really just kind of perplexed as to why everyone was making a big deal out of it. He was even quoted as saying, well, doesn't everyone do it? Oh, okay. See? Yeah. No matter what, something's very wrong here. Very wrong.

Like very wrong. Now the arrest and allegations caused honestly nearly everyone in the family to distance themselves from Fred. Yeah. Some disowned him completely. Like some just were like, no, thank you. You can very much understand that decision. He was briefly held in a cell following his arrest, but was unable to or he was able to make bonds. So he ended up being released. The problem was that no one wanted him to come to the family home any longer, so he was sent to live with his aunt Violet, and he was going to stay with her pending the outcome of the trial.

Now, in the following months, however, and this is just really sad, Kitty grew kind of reticent about testifying in court, and when the time came for her to testify, she didn't want to participate. And- I mean, you can understand that. Absolutely. That would be humiliating.

Exactly. And so the trial did fall apart kind of, and the charges were dismissed. Now, by the summer of 1962, Walter and Daisy West appeared to have gotten over their feelings of shame and humiliation about Fred and his behavior. And despite protests from his other siblings, they welcomed him back into the family home.

I don't understand. Yep. What? That's like months after this happened. This poor girl. Now, in the meantime, Rena, the girl he had been dating, had found life in Scotland to be much more difficult than she imagined. It was worse than when she had left it the first time. She was barely at this point managing to keep herself afloat and she was having to resort

to like what she didn't want to do, which was sex work and petty theft to get herself just even by just floating above the water. So she was tired of this whole thing. She was tired of the cycle that she was finding herself in. So she ended up coming back to England in the summer of 1962 and immediately they started dating again. Okay. Hey, weirdos. Not too long ago, we dug into a truly harrowing case involving a tragic loss of life.

What was supposed to be a gathering, celebrating carnival at the Happyland Social Club devolved into chaos. In episode 551, Happyland Social Club Arson, we discuss the fire that claimed 87 lives in 1990 and is still considered to be one of New York City's deadliest fires. The episode touches on a horrific escalation of domestic violence and a public outcry demanding safety measures in public spaces It's an important story to learn about you can find this episode by following morbid and scrolling back just a little bit to episode 551 Happyland Social Club arson or by searching morbid arson wherever you listen to podcasts Everyone here is hiding a secret wherever you listen Spotify podcasts. So just before she left Scotland, Rena did have a brief relationship with a man and she

had become pregnant. Now when Fred learned that she was pregnant, he was angry and he was angry and at first you're like, what do you like? You weren't together. Yeah. You know, like that, that's not, you know, I mean like you can't be angry for her for what she did when you were not together.

Yeah, she's in a completely different place. But he was angry because he was racist and this man was Asian. So he was angry that she was pregnant with what would be a half Asian baby. Oh my God. So he insisted that she terminate the pregnancy. Are you fucking kidding me?

And actually tried to forcibly do it himself. Oh my God. But luckily he tried to do it in the woods in Leadbury. What? But fortunately the whole thing drew the attention of local police, they intervened and he had to stop his plan. But nothing happened to him after this.

What, like no charges, no nothing happened to him after this. Like no charges, no nothing. And it gets worse because they decided to get married after this and the baby was born. So in November they were married. They had like very small secretive ceremony. They kept it away from their families. And Fred ended up moving out of his parents' house and he and Rena got an apartment in Coatbridge, which is a small town about eight or nine miles outside Glasgow city center,

where Rena actually grew up. Now, the change in scenery was definitely like a big improvement for Rena. Like she felt like, okay, this is a new, this is a new place. I can start meeting people, all this. But Fred found it very challenging. He hadn't spent much time outside of where he had grown up in this kind of jarring change because he was from a very rural place. This is Glasgow. And so this was very jarring to him and it made him feel uncomfortable. And he got more and more irritable and aggressive.

And they have a new baby too, which is a stressor. And he also was getting more and more aggressive about sex. According to Soons, his love making was short and brutal and he wanted sex at the most inappropriate times. Oh, that's so disturbing. Which is really unsettling. And she's recovering from having a baby. Well, it's just horrible. No matter what.

Oh. But his behavior soon turned kind of like sadistic. Like he was fucked up. And he would honestly like do all of this against Rena. Like he was physically abusing her, physically harming her. And at the same time, he had become extremely controlling and demanded at the time that Rina go back to sex work in order to support them as a couple.

What the fuck? But while he often bragged about how he quote, made a lot of money from being a pimp, he would also complain about how much trouble her working in sex work would cause them. But you put her in that position. Yeah, forced her into it. Right.

So less than a year into their marriage, his personality was transforming rapidly. I mean, getting worse and worse. He was insatiable. He demanded sex constantly. He was brutal. He was violent. He was awful.

He was fucking awful. A nightmare. He was awful. He was fucking awful. And she was not allowed to refuse. And he was often people like said that he would slap her in the head and the face. Like he was really awful. And it honestly took very little to send him into a rage. And like it all really took was something very minor and he would get physically aggressive. Now in March 1963 is when Rena actually gave birth to a baby girl named Charmaine. And that's the baby that we're talking about. But in Fred and Rena knew that everyone could tell that this was not Fred's child.

And so like that would normally not, you know, why would you care? Like, you know, you mean like this isn't, but Rena was worried that the West family might be kind of awful about this. Okay. Which I mean, I don't blame her for thinking that. Yeah, I don't either. So they told Fred's family that Rena had miscarried, but because they still wanted a baby, they had adopted a baby of Asian descent to quote,

take its place. Even worse was that Fred immediately took a dislike to this baby. Oh no. Because he said it didn't resemble him at all. And so he didn't want anything to do with this baby. Why the fuck would the baby resemble you? It's not your baby. It's not your baby.

That's kind of how that works. So poor Charmaine took like immediately was the the bane of his existence. Just as a baby, just coming into the world. God. And in the years that followed her birth, Fred's abusive behavior only worsened. And he honestly would never form any kind of bond with Charmaine at all. Neighbors said of Rena later, quote, as far as we were concerned, she was just a single parent. We never saw a man at the house at all. During this period, Fred was driving an ice cream truck.

That's horrific and disturbing. Isn't that the worst thing you've ever heard for the Walls company? And spent many of his nights off at the pub, just drinking and bragging and lying about what he was doing, saying he was connected to organized crime. Like, no. In 1964, Rena became pregnant again and eventually gave birth to a second daughter they named Anne Marie. Unlike his relationship or lack thereof with Charmaine, Fred really doted on Anna and would

like fuss over her. And he would just completely neglect and ignore Charmaine, Fred really doted on Anna and would like fuss over her. Yeah. And he would just completely neglect and ignore Charmaine. Well, and I'm sure it was almost a way for him to mess with Charmaine. To punish Charmaine. To punish her, exactly. And of course they needed like a bigger place to live at this point because they're expanding their family.

So Fred and Rena moved to a larger apartment and this one had a large garden. And while the other neighbors would kind of plant small gardens or grow some vegetables here and there, he kept his plot just raked over. And he would tell Nick, because neighbors would be like, what you doing over there? Like why don't you have like an actual garden? And he said, I'm keeping it for something special. Oh, I hate that. Because I don't know what his definition of special is, and I don't know that I want to

know. After a while, he would spend nights out in the garden and would take girls he picked up on his route there to have sex. Oh. Yeah. And what's really frustrating is that this particular area eventually got demolished to make a way for a highway system. So it's kind of impossible to dig up. And that means it's unknown whether some of Fred's victims

could be buried in this particular garden. I feel like it's pretty known. Yeah. Now, as they entered 1965, it seemed that there was really no hope that this relationship was going to get any better. It was just getting worse. And it turned out that they were kind of bound to get worse and worse as we go. At one point during the first half of the year, Fred was driving his ice cream van in the Glasgow suburbs

and he accidentally hit a small boy and left him dying in the road. And a crowd had gathered and Fred was brought into the local police station where he was interviewed and was released after investigators determined that it really was a tragic accident. And the child had been excited seeing the ice cream truck and had ran in front of the truck. Oh, that's so sad. But who really knows if that's the case?

Exactly. And after what we know now. What we know now and you accidentally get into collisions with two people. Yeah. I don't know. What are the odds of that? Yeah. But despite having been cleared of any wrongdoing, the neighborhood definitely turned on Fred.

He was pretty much shunned by everyone. So he couldn't make any money locally. So he decided it was time to return to England where they could be closer to Fred's family. Now the couple's relationship continued to get worse and worse and worse. And by 1965, Fred was carrying on affairs with several women, not trying to hide anything from Rena. He was just doing it right out in the open. And by that time, Fred was barely home anyways.

And when he was, he was just an abusive piece of shit. It was probably preferable that he wasn't home. So Rena was responsible for raising two small children on her own, which would be hard for anyone. And working, supporting the family because he's not working. And sometimes when she, I mean, she rarely got time by herself, but when she did, she would go to one of the local cafes and that's where she met Issa McNeil, who was a young woman with whom she'd been kind of like casually friendly.

Now Issa had recently lost her job at a clothing factory and was kind of desperate for more work. So Rena was like, why don't you come on as a nanny and you can help me with Charmaine and Anna in exchange for a room and board. Oh God. And she was like, sure. It didn't take long for McNeil to begin to notice the strange and very tense dynamic that was in the West House.

That would be terrifying to walk into that. She said when Fred was home, the girls were left on the bottom bunk of a bunk bed where they were essentially kept penned in by metal bars and would only be allowed to be out when he left. What the fuck? Yeah. And of course there was a horribly abusive relationship between Rena and Fred. And they didn't, he didn't hide this at all. He did it right out in the open. Wow.

And despite all of this, Issa introduced the West to her friend, Anna McFall, who was a teenager with a history full of tragedies and trauma, kind of like Rena. She had very little familiar or social supports around her. And Anna began spending a lot of her time at the West department and soon became kind of a regular presence around the home. Now after the accident, Fred had told, like the accident with the little boy, Fred had told Rena they needed to move back to England where he would be able to make a living again.

But seeing it as an opportunity probably to get away from her abusive husband, Rina was like, no, I'm not going with you. But Fred took the girls and returned to Muchmarkel in the spring of 1965. He took both of them. This is what I mean. I don't understand when people like, he obviously doesn't want to be a father in the, in the sense that you should want to be a father. It's a way to punish Rena. But he's just like taking these children like

what, so you can abuse and neglect them? Like what? It doesn't make any sense to me. And again, I don't know why he was allowed to take those children. I don't know how any of that all happened, but of course, Rena immediately began stressing and missing her children. So she went back to England to live in Fred's parents' home again, because she really just wanted to be around the kids. Yeah, to probably protect them. Yeah. And now, of course, this living situation at the West became very uncomfortable. It's very crowded. They're with his parents.

That's a lot. So Fred and Rena moved with their children to the Willows, which was a caravan site near Muchmarkel. Now, at first things like, seemed like they might be like at least plateauing, you know, like getting a little better, I guess. Rena found a job serving tea at a local cafe. Fred got a job driving a truck for a local company, but their relationship

was still very tumultuous and very unstable. And Rena was spending a lot of time away with her family in Scotland. And on one of her trips to Glasgow, she ran into Issa McNeil and suggested that the young woman returned to England and stay with her since she had been having trouble with her parents at the time too. And Isa agreed and also brought Anna McFall with her since Anna was also unhappy in Scotland and was looking for new opportunities again. So she was like, why don't you guys just come back and live with us? Like it worked out before, I guess.

Kind of. No, it didn't take long for Isa and Rena to kind of regret that decision. With four adults and two children, the caravan was very, very cramped and very uncomfortable. And it was just making all the tension worse. And the shift from Glasgow to the much more rural, much more Markle was a very tough adjustment, especially for Isa and Anna. They were both struggling to find work. They were spending a lot of their time just watching the girls for Fred and Rena and just kind of like hanging out doing nothing.

So after a couple of months with Fred and Rena, the situation became so bad and so tense and so uncomfortable that Rena sent a letter to her former boyfriend, John McLaughlin or McLaughlin I think it was, and asked that he come pick up Issa and Anna and bring them back to Glasgow. Okay. So John agreed. I'm like, take the girls too. I know.

And Rena and John had actually coordinated things so that John and his friend would arrive while Fred was at work and he would actually take Issa, Anna and the two children back to Scotland. So that did end up being part of the plan. I'm like, take Rena too. Everybody just run away. Exactly. Now, strangely though, Fred arrived home unexpectedly

while they were all packing and the scene just exploded. No. And it was like, at first everybody was like, why did he show up in the middle of the day? But Howard Soons, who we will link his, uh, his sources in our show notes. He thinks that Anna actually told Fred about the plan a few days earlier. What a why. Now both Isa and John McLaughlin apparently now believed that Anna had told Fred of their

scheme. And she had apparently she had become very friendly With Fred in the recent weeks and in the end Fred refused to let the children go Oh and Anna told what very calmly told everyone that she was gonna stay on as Fred's nanny so they could all go So John McLaughlin loaded up a few of Rena's stuff and you know He and his friend and Rena and Issa all left for Glasgow. Oh my God. If I was Rena, I would be livid. Yeah. There's no way I could leave. It's also like, take your kids.

Well, and it's like, I couldn't leave. I don't know though. I've never been in that situation. So I'm not going to sit here and judge anybody. No, it was only later after Issa had returned to Scotland that it became clear what had been happening between Fred and Anna. In letters to Issa, Anna told her friend that she was quote unquote, infatuated with Fred. And the two had been carrying on an affair during the periods that Rena was away in Glasgow. Anna had loved to, like I said, led a very troubled life up until this point and naively believe Fred was going to give her a better life.

And at one point she even wrote to her mother that the two were going to be married. Okay. Ignoring that little inconvenient fact that Fred was already married to Rina. Right. Well, it seems pretty unlikely that Fred was gonna go through with this whole thing.

He did give the impression that he might. Not long after Rina and Is Isa had fled the caravan park, Fred just placed both his children in the care of social services in the summer of 1966. You might as well have just let their mother take them. Didn't allow their mother to take them and just put them into social services. That's absolutely bonkers. Now when Rena learned this, she returned to England to get her children and began living at a different caravan park a few little ways away from this one. And although she was happy

to have her children back, Rena was surprised that she was kind of irritated and feeling a little jealous over Fred's relationship with Anna. I mean, regardless. I mean, that's on trauma. Exactly. It makes sense. And Fred had engaged in clearly many affairs in the past that she knew of, but they were all like, in her, in her eyes, they were like, at least out of sight, out of mind. You know, and they were never serious in her eyes. That's different when you bring on somebody to literally care for your children and that I can't imagine. No. And his relationship with Anna was like, it seemed like she was being replaced.

Yeah. As like the mother of like, you know, the wife and mother. Right. So for nearly a year after her return to England, Rena, Fred and Anna were in this like weird like love triangle that was like this tense fighting trying to like, he was trying to tell both of them that he was going to be with them kind of thing. And after suffering a great deal of abuse from Rena, obviously, Anna moved out and found lodging somewhere else. Okay.

But Rena remained pretty ambivalent and continued splitting her time between the caravan park with Fred and her family's home in Glasgow. So things were just still going on this roller coaster of just shit. Drama. Nancy's love story could have been ripped right out of the pages of one of her own novels. She was a romance mystery writer who happens to be married to a chef. But this story didn't end with a happily ever after. When I stepped into the kitchen I could see that Chef Brophy was on the ground and I heard somebody say, call 911.

As writers, we'd written our share of murder mysteries. So when suspicion turned to Dan's wife, Nancy, we weren't that surprised. The first person they look at would be the spouse. We understand that's usually the way they do it. But we began to wonder, had Nancy gotten so wrapped up in her own novels… There are murders in all of the books. …that she was playing them out in real life? You can listen to Happily Never After, Dan and Nancy early and ad ad free right now by joining Wondery Plus

in the Wondery app or on Apple podcasts. Things took a turn for the worse in the spring of 1967 when Anna announced that she was pregnant with Fred's child. Okay. 67 when Anna announced that she was pregnant with Fred's child. By then, Anna was still serving as a nanny for the West children and saw her own pregnancy as an opportunity to convince Fred to divorce Rina and marry her. This is all so fucked up. It is.

And Fred was not interested in marrying Anna. In fact, he was pretty uncomfortable with the arrangement since Rena found out about his fare and was now worried that, which none of this is gonna make logical sense because nobody's logical in this situation. But now he's worried that if Rena found out about the pregnancy, she was gonna leave him for good. Suddenly he cares.

Well, he enjoys toying with multiple women at the same time. Yeah, and he doesn't like that it's gonna be disrupted here. And that Rena can take the power and say like, fuck you, I'm gone. Exactly. But that April, very pregnant Anna McFall disappeared from the caravan park.

Oh no. And she was never seen alive again. Oh no, Anna. No one ever reported Anna missing. No one investigated it. No one looked into it. That's so sad that she didn't have anybody that like looked after her to care. Her own mother didn't report her missing. That's so messed up. It was only, it was later after Fred's arrest in 1994 that details of her whereabouts were actually learned. Throughout

his multiple interrogations and interviews, Fred repeatedly denied killing Anna. He said, Nope, I didn't do it. But weirdly, he had no trouble directing them right to a cornfield where she was buried. He couldn't have known unless he at the very least played a part in putting her there. Right. While investigators were never able to conclusively prove that he killed Anna. Pretty likely.

There were also rumors that he had admitted it to cellmates during his incarceration in 1994, telling them that he stabbed her one evening after they got in an argument. Oh God. Now, despite having been given a general sense of where the body was buried, it actually took authorities nearly two months to find her. And when they did finally exhumed Anna from her grave in the much-markel cornfield, 27 years after she was murdered, her remains were entirely skeletal, as were the remains of her unborn child. Right, he killed not only her, but their baby as well. The body had been dismembered, and there was a dressing gown type cord wrapped around her

neck and wrists and then tied under the ribs as though she had been restrained. Also found in the grave were two large plastic bags with several pieces of bloodstained clothing. And that what was either a large floral print sheet or curtain. That's horrific. Absent from the body though, were several small hand and foot bones, but no one can tell where they went or why they weren't there. Interesting. So now it's like, did he torture her?

Yeah. Did someone torture her and remove fingers and toes? Oh man. Because he's a brutal fuck. Yeah. We will find out. And she was restrained. Right.

So it's like, entirely possible that he did something awful, I can't think of another explanation. I can't think of another explanation. Now in the weeks after Anna disappeared, co-workers and others who knew him recalled that Fred became very irritable, very anxious, very easily distracted, noticeable difference. Yeah, paranoid. That changed a short time later when Rena returned, happy to find that Fred and Anna's relationship had ended because she had no idea what happened. And they started living together again and took the children out of, you know, completely because she was

able to claim her children in social services, but they weren't entirely taken out. Yeah. I don't know how that all works, so I'm not going to speculate, but they did take their children out eventually. Okay. And basically, at this point, Rena looked at it as like, maybe we can start over. Okay. Maybe all this can start over. Maybe it can actually work.

We can be a family. It's so sad that she had that hope. It's very sad. I think it's hard to understand from the outside how she possibly could, but again, we've never been in a situation like that. So, I mean, hope must be really the only thing that you do have. Truly, truly. Now not long after Rena returned to living with Fred, he found a new job as

a laborer. He was working at a local grain mill near the caravan park where they lived. And at the same time, he was still spending all his nights at a pub at cafes and he was spending it at mostly at this place called the Poppin Cafe, which is a very seedy bar in Gloucester known to attract unsavory customers and petty thieves. Now according to Soons, it was the kind of place where quote, pornographic photographs were circulated and stolen goods changed hands when the owner was not looking. Interesting. Now, it was at this cafe that Fred likely met 15 year old waitress, Mary Bastholm.

15. On the evening of January 6th, 1968, Mary had plans to meet her boyfriend, Tim Merritt, who lived about five miles from her home. And she was last seen waiting for the bus on Bristol Road at about 7.15 PM. Waiting at the bus stop at the other end, Tim was surprised when the first bus stopped and Mary did not get off. And then he became alarmed when the second bus came and went and Mary was nowhere to be found. So Tim asked a friend to drive him to Mary's house. And he was like, okay, maybe she just went home and we got our like, you know, our wires crossed and she didn't realize she was supposed to meet me.

So he was like, he went to her home. But when he went there, he was kind of shocked and very alarmed when he found out that no one there had seen her either. And they were like, I thought she was meeting you. So the disappearance was very out of character for her. She was very responsible girl. This just wasn't her. She wasn't floating around like not knowing where she was. So Tim immediately called the police and reported her missing. Now, especially back then, even now, police have met reports of missing teenagers with a little bit of like, they don't really

want to expand, expend their valuable resources on searching for someone just to learn that they'd run away or go on to stay with like friends and they're going to come back. And that's kind of the, that's usually what, what we get in these situations. But here, luckily they did take it very seriously. Because I guess because Mary, I mean, everyone in her life was like, this literally isn't her. She's never done this. It's just, it's a gamble. Like you never know what you're going to get in a situation like that.

That's the thing. And you don't, cause there's some situations where the whole family sitting there being like, she's never done this. She wouldn't do this. And they're like, I bet she did though. So it's like, this one just happened to be one that worked out when they immediately started looking. Chief Constable HD J. Smith told reporters,

we're very concerned for the girl. And I think part of this, like I think part of this is just like, honestly, it's like a kind of like 50, 50 shot of what you're gonna get from them in this situation. But also it did help the case here that unfortunately several local girls at the time had been assaulted in the area over the last several months and years. And detectives were like, okay, this could be in the same vein.

So they did like jump at this because they wanted to stop it before it happened again. Makes sense. Which is a good thing, but obviously it's awful that it was going on at the time. So the search continued for several days for Mary with more than 125 officers combing the city, like all out for this, but there were no clues, no leads. They couldn't find anything on where she had gone.

So they were very frustrated. And at this point, local police called on Scotland Yard for assistance. And two detectives from the yard were assigned to the case. The sudden assignment of yard detectives caused many to speculate that the case was now being investigated as a murder. Because that's like a big switch. But Chief Inspector Kenneth Barker attempted to stop those rumors during a press

conference on January 9th. He said, the position has still not changed and we are still investigating a missing person, but obviously it could change to something else and it is much better that the yard be informed at this stage. Time is going on. Nothing has been discovered. So he was basically just saying like, we're not investigating it as a murder yet, but it's better to enter this stage and have Scotland Yard enter than to wait for it to become a problem. Rather than be in this and be looking for a live person, then do it too late. Which I'm like, good job. I know, due diligence. We love to see it. Now despite the assistance of Scotland Yard detectives and the use of military search and rescue helicopter, weeks passed and nothing.

No sign of Mary, no clues of where she could have gone. This must have been so frustrating. After two weeks, nothing had changed in the investigation. Investigators told reporters at that point, they were, quote, waiting for something to turn up and the possibility cannot be discounted that Mary might have gone off on her own accord. Because at this point, they're like, maybe she doesn't want to be found. I don't know.

Now, of course, Mary had not gone off on her own accord. And unfortunately, her body would not be found. Ever. In 1998, Fred's son, Stephen West, told reporters he was convinced his father had killed Mary Bastholme. He said his father had boasted in prison how her body and others would remain undiscovered. Oh God. Fred had always denied killing Mary. And while they strongly suspected he was very much responsible for her disappearance, investigators were never able to formally connect him.

Right. Without a body, it's like impossible. he was very much responsible for her disappearance, investigators were never able to formally connect him. Right, without a body, it's like impossible. Yeah, but Stephen claims his father admitted several other crimes to him in the months before his death and alluded to the fact that Mary was one of those victims. During one visit, Fred allegedly told his son, quote, "'They are not going to find them all, you know, never.'"

And I believe his son. I do too, of course. How are you that evil? He's bottom tier. I mean, bottom tier evil. Even in death too, to go to the grave. Not ever admitting the full scope of everything. He didn't give a shit.

And when Stephen asked if Mary was among those people, Fred replied, I'll never tell anyone where she is. Oh God. And he didn't. That's so evil. A 15 year old girl. That was just waiting at a bus stop probably. Now following his arrest, Fred frequently made references to other victims,

but he was intentionally vague and he would never give details or names, just reference them, kind of like hint at them. He loved that shit. And years later, Fred's defense attorney, Howard Ogden, told police that Fred claimed to have picked Mary up at the bus stop that night, that she went missing, and after killing her, he quote, buried her in village in the village of Bishops Cleve near Cheltenham. Although this is consistent with other references that Fred has made, had made to Mary's death in the past,

without any more specific location or details. Nicole Soule- You can't just dig up the whole area. Beth Dombkowski Yeah, there was no way that they could really go about trying to find her, and she remains missing to this day. Nicole Soule- Oh, that's awful. Beth Dombkowski Which is fucking awful.. Like that kind of shit, I can't go into your grave and not giving closure. I'm just like, damn. But it's your last imprint of evil.

Yeah. Now in the year that followed Mary's disappearance, Fred continued a very sharp spiral downward, was arrested several times for petty thefts other minor minor offenses And during this time Fred was also Let go from his job at the mill when the owners became suspicious that he'd actually been stealing money from them Mm-hmm. So now he's out of work. He's desperate for money And so he worked a few months driving a septic truck before landing a full-time position driving a delivery truck for a local bakery. To not deliver them by baked goods. The wholesome jobs that he was holding at times.

I'm like, I hate that. Yeah. It's like akin to being a babysitter. And unfortunately, it was through this job that Fred met Rose, setting him on an even worse path somehow that would end up with him killing himself. Him killing himself? Mm-hmm. And we're going to end part one there.

Wait, he killed himself? Yeah, he killed himself in prison. What? Yeah. Oh, man. Yeah. All right. So that's where we're going to end part one. Oh man. Yeah. All right.

So that's where we're going to end part one. It's going to get bad. I just need, I need everybody to really understand that. You mean worse. It's going to get much worse. Okay. I'm going to do my best to, I'm going to give you, I'm going to give you what happened, but I'm going to do my best to, I'm going to give you, I'm going to give you what happened, but I'm going to do my best to not, you know, get too into the nitty gritty.

That's not helping anybody, but we're here. So it's an awful story. It's awful for everyone involved. Well, with all that, we hope you keep listening. And we hope you keep it weird. I've got to tell you. I know. I couldn't even get that weird out.

I was like, oh, weird, weird. If you like Morbid, you can listen early and ad-free right now by joining Wondery+, in the Wondery app, or on Apple podcasts. Prime members can listen ad-free on Amazon Music. Before you go, tell us about yourself by filling out a short survey at Wondery.com slash survey.