Morbid - Episode 565: Fred & Rose West (Part 2)

Episode Date: May 20, 2024

Part two delves into Fred's life after he met Rose, exploring the origins of the affair leading to their marriage and the beginning of the sadistic crimes that would horrify the world at large.Thank you to the wondrous Dave White of Bring Me the Axe Podcast for Research!ReferencesAmis, Martin. 2000. When darkness met light. May 11. Accessed March 21, 2024. https://www.theguardian.com/theguardian/2000/may/11/features11.g2.BBC News. 1998. Fred West 'admitted killing waitress'. March 25. Accessed March 19, 2024. http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/69928.stm.—. 2001. How many more did Fred West kill? September 27. Accessed March 19, 2024. http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/1567038.stm.—. 2021. The 12 victims of Fred and Rosemary West. May 27. Accessed March 18, 2024. https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-gloucestershire-57182844.Bennett, Will. 1995. Step-daughter Charmaine was first to die. November 22. Accessed March 19, 2024. https://www.independent.co.uk/news/stepdaughter-charmaine-was-first-to-die-1583071.html.Birmingham Evening Mail. 1974. "Missing girls theory." Birmingham Evening Mail, January 7: 1.Birmingham Post. 1968. "Missing waitress mystery deepens." Birmingham Post, January 23: 2.—. 1974. "Student missing for six days may return ton university-police." Birmingham Post, January 2: 2.—. 1968. "Yard detectives join search for Gloucester girl." Birmingham Post, January 9: 1.Campbell, Duncan. 1995. "How a string of girls came to die in depraved and appalling circumstances." The Guardian, October 7.Duce, Richard. 1995. "West's suicide avenged killings, QC tells jurors." The Times, November 16.Duce, Richard, and Bill Frost. 1995. "Court told of depravity at 25 Cromwell Street." The Times, October 7: 4.Evening Post. 1968. "Helicopter joins hunt for Mary." Evening Post, January 8: 1.Evening Standard. 1974. "Have you spotted this girl?" Evening Standard, July 4: 18.Frost, Bill. 1995. "Cromwell Street murders case man is dead." The Times, Janaury 2.Frost, Bill, and Richard Duce. 1995. "I'm being made a scapegoat, says West." The Times, November 2.—. 1995. "No place for sentiment, West jurors are told." The Times, October 4.—. 1995. "West: I fell under Fred's spell." The Times, October 31.Gloucester Echo. 1994. "Did builder know Mary?" Gloucester Echo, March 8: 3.—. 1994. "Graden bodies: Who were they?" Gloucester Echo, March 2: 1.Gloucestershire Echo. 1995. "From angelic child to coldest of killers." Gloucestershire Echo 5.—. 1995. "Fred West found dead." Gloucestershire Echo, January 2: 1.—. 1995. "I'll see you in court, Rose." Gloucestershire Echo, January 4: 1.Knight, Adam. 2014. Fred West's brother denies incest claims. November 7. Accessed March 17, 2024. https://www.herefordtimes.com/news/11587578.fred-wests-brother-denies-incest-claims/.Lee, Adrian, Tim Jones, and Damian Whitworth. 1996. "Fred West's brother hangs himself." The Times, November 29.Ovington, Paul. 1974. "Hunt steps up as fear grows for Lucy, 21." Western Daily Press and Times, January 4: 1.Sounes, Howard. 1995. Fred & Rose: The Full Story of Fred and Rose West and the Gloucester House of Horrors. New York, NY: Open Road Media.United Press International. 1995. "British jury convicts West of 10 murders." UPI Archive, November 22.West, Mae, and Neil McKay. 2018. Love as Always, Mum: The True and Terrible Story of Surviving a Childhood with Fred and Rose West. London, UK: Seven Dials Press.Williams, Martin. 1994. "'Our sister is still alive'." Gloucester Echo, February 26: 1.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Wondery Plus subscribers can listen to Morbid early and ad free. Join Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or on Apple podcasts. You're listening to a Morbid Network podcast. Hey, weirdos. I'm Ash. And I'm Alaina. And this is Morbid and we are in part two of Fred and Rosemary West. Oh God, the fact that we're only on part two right now.

Yeah. Just like all of the information in part one, like all of the deranged diabolical information. Yeah. And that's just one part, y'all. This is going to get so much worse. One part, y'all. These are horrible people. These are very bad.

These are very bad. And I know I've said that in part one, but it can't be stressed enough how bad this is. And again, another blanket trigger warning for horrific sexual abuse and assault and just really terrible things. They're terrible. This is terrible. I'm questioning myself for deciding to agree to do this, but we're here. Well, it takes an effect on your psyche. It really does. I'm not like, like I've said this before about other cases, but I think this one is akin to the Myra Hindley

and Ian Brady one that like really took a little bit of a toll. This one's taken a toll. And so I will be very glad when we wrap it up. But it's a story that needs to be told because it's horrific. And these people, a lot of their victims, not all of them, but a lot of them came from really dysfunctional trauma in their lives to begin with. Yeah.

And this is how they were taken out of the world. That's absolutely awful. And that's what kills me is it's like they went through all this awful trauma. They were young, a lot of them, you know what I mean? And some of them were their own children. That part is just, I don't know why you have kids if you know that you're, I mean, probably because you know you're that evil. Exactly. It's just, it's inconceivable.

The whole thing. And then the other thing is that these children, and it's easy to forget when you're reading about all these horrible things that are happening to these, you know, girls and young women who they're picking up that there's kids in the house and they're seeing most of the things that are going on in this house. Like it's a, that's the stuff that's like all of it is really getting to me. It's a tough one. Especially as a mother.

Yeah, there's just like a lot. They're really, and they're just really brutal. These are really, really brutal, awful people who did awful, awful things. But again, we got a, that's important story to tell. Yeah, absolutely. So I'm going, this'll be part two. I'm thinking this is going to end up being four parts because there's just a lot of information.

And as much as it's, you know, there's a lot to digest in each part. Like this one, this part two is gonna be heavy with information and heavy with some gnarly stuff. So I don't want to like, you know, just shove a lot of gnarly stuff into an episode so that things get lost and things, you know, and I need a minute after, like, you know what I mean?

So like, I'm going to try to break it, I think, into four just so we can have a second between each one. And also, I think afterwards I'll try to do some kind of pal- like actual palette cleanser for me and for you. Yeah, we need to do that. Because I'm certainly going to need it because this has been a tough one. It really is like the Ian and Myra one to me. Yeah, I know it's very reminiscent of that.

Absolutely. Yeah. And after that one, I really, I needed a minute. I think everybody did. And I think that was another four-parter. Yeah, I think it was at least four parts. So yeah, so we're going to get through this. And you know, this is a very highly requested case.

It is. And it's also, you know, not from the United States. So it's one of those that you don't know how many people know totally about it. You might've heard the names, but you don't know like the detail details. I didn't know a lot of these details. So the last we left on, we were talking about Fred finally meeting Rose.

Yeah, and he was still with his first, what were they ever married though? Rena. Rena, were they married? They were married, yep. And he's still with his first, what were they ever married though? Reena. Reena, were they married? They were married, yep. And he's still with her at this point. Yeah, but it's like- It's so tumultuous. There's so much happening.

Yeah. But this is really, this is the moment is when he met Rose. So let's talk about who Rose is. You've heard her called by Rose and Rosemary. Her full name is Rosemary Pauline Letts. And she was born in Northam, Devon, England on November 29th, 1953. Her parents were Bill and Daisy Letts. Interesting that her mother is also named Daisy.

Yeah, that is interesting. Her mother's name is Daisy. And it's just such a sweet name. It is. I know. Like you never expect anything bad from a Daisy. No, she was described as remarkably unintelligent.

Her siblings nicknamed her Dozy Rosie. Oh. Yeah, and her brother Andrew said, she was as thick as two planks. Oh, as thick as two planks. Oh, so as thick as two planks. Not, not rolling with a lot apparently. Um, in the years that followed their arrest, like way later down the line, Rose's siblings also described her as engagingly stupid, dense and naive. Jesus. Oh, and remarkably lazy. So she's the total package.

There is no denying that Rosalett's early life was not great. A lot of ridicule, not a lot of affection, not a lot of like, you know, she was rarely told anything positive about herself, which as a child, that sucks. And it's just not conducive to anybody growing up and being like a great person. Yeah, it's just- Obviously it happens and like people find their way out of that, but- But it's starting off on a rough foot. Yeah.

And some people can make it out of that rough foot, but some people can't. And if there's already underlying shit there, which I'm sure there is in this case, then that's just- Then it's even worse. Yeah. Now, given that she had such an unfortunate upbringing and a really stunted social and intellectual development to work with, it's not really surprising that she would be drawn into a man like Fred West.

Yeah. In 1969, she was 15 years old. Super young. Yeah. She was working at a tea shop around Bishop's Cleve, not far from where Fred and Rena were living at the time. One night while she was waiting for the bus at the bus stop after her work, Fred, this was his thing. He loved a bus stop. Loves a bus stop. He approached her and began talking to her, just making small talk. Rose kind of tried to ignore him at first because she's 15 and he's a disgusting creep. Yeah. So despite later what happens where they end up having

one of the most horrific and weird relationships you will ever hear about, at this moment, Rose said, thought he looked filthy. He looked unkempt, just really gross. And he was being lewd and lascivious, just wasn't anything to be attracted to spot the lie which and also it's like your first instinct is true Yeah, follow that gut feeling follow that but when you find out who roses later, you're like, oh Monster beget monster like just there she's

Horrific as well. Do you think that she always had the potential to be horrific or do you think that this relationship brought it out in her? I think the relationship and obviously this is just me like speculating, but I think the relationship definitely opened the doors for her that this was okay behavior. And like harvest somebody was saying yes and giving her, somebody was giving her encouragement. And validation. But I don't think it's, that's not to take any responsibility away from her because she enjoyed herself.

Yeah. And it's like she did horrific shit. She had a really nasty, nasty streak inside of her that I think was just, it was brewing to something bad. So that leads you to believe that it was always there and that, like you said, the door was just open to you. Yeah, I think Monster just met Monster. The door was there.

And they were able to kind of run free together as Monsters. I think that's really what it comes down to. She's young at this point. So I don't even think she knew the depths of her own depravity. But I think it was in there. And I think this older piece of shit was able to draw it out of her. But I think it was there. But who knows if it would have been drawn out other than that?

Nobody can say, unfortunately. But yeah, it was not a good first impression. Rose would describe the experience to a classmate actually, and went as far as to say that Fred had a leering smile and that his smile was all ganky and green. Green? Yeah. Green? Yeah. Oh, mama. Now, despite how she felt about him after

their first encounter, Fred did win her over. What? Yeah. He repeatedly sought her out at the bus stop. He went back and back and back and he eventually won her over. She really loved a determined man. Yeah. So Rose had never really had any close friends and was accustomed to negative attention from her siblings and peers. So the attention from Fred, who is an older man, is probably being, I mean, he was disgusting in the way that he would approach women,

especially in young girls. So I think she just, this is the only positive attention that she's getting. So what she was used to, she found it flattering. And there was something that she described it and this is like, they're horrifying. Yeah, of course. She said that he was inherently sexual and that excited her, which you look at Fred West and you're like, what? And again, Fred had gotten, had been doing

this for a long time, a long time since he was a teenager. Like he's been preying on young girls and he's been a predator for a long time. So he's gotten very good at grooming his young victims. And honestly, like, and he, he could say these horrible things, but he has groomed them into thinking this is flattery. Right. But Rose was excited by it and actually appeared kind of to welcome his crude behavior and language. Now, and usually when Fred would do this, he would come across a lot of resistance to

that kind of behavior and that kind of language because a lot of young girls are like, you're gross. Get the fuck away from me. No, but he was like shocked by this. Now this probably seemed as like a little game to Rose at first because she was very unhappy. She had a lot of low self-esteem. So this was probably just like a fun little like he's paying attention to me.

And later after the arrests, Rose's brother, Andrew said, quote, her idea of being grown up was going out with someone a lot older. And so this makes sense. He said, he was basically saying that it didn't even bother Rose that Fred was married. She knew that. Like Rose didn't care. But he also, like, so he drew her in with that, like, I'm married. But then he said, Rina had left him with two small children and was working as a sex worker in Glasgow. So he was playing both sides. He paints the picture that he wants people to see.

Exactly. But the truth was that at the time that he met her, Rina was just visiting family in Glasgow. Like just away for a little bit. Yeah, just like away visiting family in Glasgow. Like just away for a little bit. Yeah, just like away, visiting family. And apparently Rose at this time really loved kids, which is really horrifying when you think of later what happens.

And who she becomes. And Dave brought this up and I thought it was a really good thing to point out. She loved kids because she didn't have any responsibility to kids. Yeah. Kids are great when she didn't have any responsibility to kids. Yeah. Kids are great when you can, you know, I mean like when you're 15 and you get to play with a baby for a little while. You know what I mean? Like that's it. But when she had to be in charge, sacrifice and had to be responsible, that's a whole different story. It changed.

But because Fred had Charmaine and Anne-Marie, who were two young girls, that only made him more attractive to her. Look, he has two kids, and I get to be like play mom for a little while. And that's the thing, their mom is still very much part of their life at this point, so she gets to put that hat on and take it off when she wants to.

Exactly, she doesn't have to be the full time. And they're not even married at this point either, so she can come and go as she pleases. Exactly. And play mommy. Now, in time, Rose started lying to her parents, And they're not married at this point either, so she can come and go as she pleases and play mommy. Exactly. Now, in time, Rose started lying to her parents, telling them that she had found work as a cleaner when in fact she was spending all her time with Fred.

Eventually, she introduced Fred to her parents. How'd that go? He tried to be charming to them, but they were like, absolutely not. What the fuck? Daisy Letts said immediately we thought he was an older man. He was 27, but he did not look young for his age. Can confirm. Also, what the fuck are you doing at 27 years old?

27. I am 27 years old. With a 15 year old. That's disgusting. Fifteen. That actually like makes me physically ill. It makes my stomach literally churn. That's literally a sophomore in high school.

And this is just how he, he's foul. Like what do you have in common? Nothing. He doesn't need anything. No, and he doesn't. That's the thing. We all know that your hair and skin can really sway your mood and impact your day in ways that you just can't underestimate. I'd never actually found beauty products that really understood my needs to this level,

but ever since I switched to a custom hair and skin routine with pros, I have noticed so many benefits. Healthier hair and skin? Yes, but beyond that too. My hair, if you've seen it on my IG lately, it's shinier, it's healthier. I colored it and now I have all the right products to keep it looking good, keep that color locked in,

and that shine on lock as well. Proz is made for people, not hair and skin types. Personalization is rooted in everything they do, from their in-depth consultation to their made-to-order model. From millions of possible formulas, only one is uniquely yours or mine. Back off. I'm totally kidding. But Pros isn't just better for you, it's better for the planet. They're a certified B Corp, they're cruelty free, and the first and only carbon neutral custom beauty brand. They actually even have a review and refine tool which learns from my feedback and adjusts my formula to keep

up with the seasons and changes in my life. Like if I'm working out more, if I'm getting a little sweatier, if I'm washing my hair more often, that review and refine tool will update my formula and account for those things, which that's really freaking cool. Pros is so confident you'll bring out your best hair and skin that they're offering an exclusive trial offer of 50% off your first subscription order at pros.com slash morbid. So get your free consultation then 50% off at pros.com slash morbid. That's P-R-O-S-E dot com slash morbid. This show is sponsored by BetterHelp.

We all carry around different stressors, big and small, and when we bottle them up, it can really start to affect us negatively. Therapy is a safe space to get things off of your chest and to figure out how to work through whatever's weighing you down. I personally LOVE therapy, baby. I'm obsessed with it. Sometimes I will walk into a session and I end up going through something that like working through something

that I didn't even know was having such an effect on me until after I got to the end of it and start applying the tools that I learned in therapy to make that part of my life better. And then you just feel like this big weight lifted off your shoulders. If you're thinking of starting therapy, give BetterHelp a try.

It is entirely online. It's designed to be convenient, flexible, and suited to your schedule. And all you have to do is fill out a brief questionnaire to get matched with a licensed therapist. You can also switch therapists anytime for no additional charge. Get it off your chest with BetterHelp.

Visit betterhelp.com slash morbid today to get 10% off of your first month. That's betterhelp, H-E-L-P dot com slash morbid. of your first month. That's betterhelp, H-E-L-P.com slash morbid. Now after that initial meeting, Rose's parents were like, no, we don't like him, this is fucked up. And they said, they demanded that she stop seeing him, but there was very little they could do

to stop the relationship because she had agreed to take on full-time work as nanny to Fred and Rose's children. That always goes so well. Now, This is like my biggest fear having children when they get to the age where like they can bring somebody home and you can say no fucking way, but you kind of can't.

But that's like not having that control of like, I just need to let you make mistakes. Right. But like some of these mistakes can be life altering and I don't want you to do that. Like thinking of some of the like people even that I dated when I was like not 15 but like a little bit older. Oh my God. Honestly, even hearing your opinions and being like, fuck off. But then like knowing that like I'm going to go through that with my kids and they're

going to be like, fuck off. I'm like, oh no. I know. I think of like, because when you're young, you don't go on like such a tizzy with this. But when you're young, you don't see it. No, you don't see through the adult eyes of like how bad things could possibly go because you just don't have the experience under your belt and you're invincible. Exactly. You yeah, nothing can happen to me. Exactly. And he's nice to me sometimes. So that's all that matters.

Exactly. Exactly. Oh, it's so scary. I know. Now, frustrated with their daughter's relationship, Bill and Daisy Letts reported to police that their teenage daughter was having a sexual relationship with an adult and suspected she was also being forced into sex work at the caravan park. also being forced into sex work at the caravan park. Oh man. So good on these parents at this moment, at least Daisy Letts for reporting this. Yeah. And not just being like, well, whatever.

What am I gonna do? Because especially at this time, a lot of like stories you hear is that parents are just like, well, you know, let them make their mistake. What was I gonna do? But the report prompted a brief investigation. And in the summer of 1969, Rose was removed from the home

and placed in a home for troubled girls. Which she described as being like a prison. Yeah. Which, absolutely. It's sad too that like, that's the- That's the answer. That's the solution, but it's almost never a better place. But it's like, it almost always makes it worse.

Yeah. But despite all of this, Rose continued seeing Fred. It's almost never a better place. It almost always makes it worse. Yeah. But despite all of this, Rose continued seeing Fred. She was sneaking out of the home whenever she could, and especially when she knew Rena wouldn't be at home. In fact, throughout this whole period, Rena had carried on life much as she had while Fred was having an affair with Anna McFall, just kind of bouncing back and forth between Gloucestershire and Glasgow with only like a little bit of

a naive awareness of what was going on. That's really sad. In November 1969, Rose turned 16 years old and was released from the home and returned to her parents for a brief period of time and then moved in with Fred to an apartment that he started renting after once again, placing his children in foster care. I don't understand how you can just place them and then get them back and then place them again. That it's like, like if you, I don't know.

It's the, well, but Bill and Daisy Letts spent months trying to convince their daughter to end the relationship, culminating in their making another report to the police. They were not letting this go. Good for them. So this time though, investigators arranged for Rose to be examined by a doctor. And in February 1970, learned that she was pregnant with Fred's baby. Yeah, I was waiting for that. Now due to the pregnancy and her refusal to leave Fred, Rose was placed in another troubled

girl's home. A month later, Rose was released from the home after agreeing to end the pregnancy and her relationship. But instead of returning to her parents, she moved into Fred's apartment. Oh, no. There was really nothing else that Bill and Daisy felt like they could do, so they told her,

if you continue this relationship with Fred Rest, you are no longer welcome in our home. That's so tough. And you have to think of, like, what it took to get to that point. Cause we know these big major events, but I'm sure there were smaller things in between. There was probably many little ones in between. Now in October, Rose gave birth to a girl she named Heather, but any joy that she

felt about a new baby was pretty short-lived because just a couple months after Heather was born, Fred was arrested for stealing car parts. And he, of course, immediately blamed it on Rena. But he was sentenced to eight months in prison. Not only did Fred's jail sentence entirely disrupt this whole romanticized fantasy for the future that Rose had concocted, but it also meant that at just 17 years old, she was now a single mother for not one, but three children. Oh my God. Now, for Rose, who was still a teenager, remember?

Yeah, well, 17. Yeah, the whole affair with Fred likely seemed adventurous, romantic, you know, fantasy. Exactly the kind of dramatic scenario that could easily, could distract and eventually free her from the environment that she felt like she was living in. Yeah. However, having been effectively disowned by her family and temporarily separated from Fred, the consequences of her actions and decisions were starting to become unavoidable. At this point.

Or unavoidable, I should say, excuse me. And they were not as romantic at this time than she was initially thinking they would be. Being 17 years old and a single mother to three children. Yeah. At 17. Think of who you were at 17. No.

And like, obviously people do it and it's fucking remarkable, but like. Literally remarkable. But. But being thrust into that. Couldn't, I couldn't even fathom. Now, at first, she loved the idea of being in a relationship with a man who had children.

Like I said, she loved kids because she never had any true responsibility to Charmaine or Anne-Marie. Right. Now, unfortunately, once she'd left her parents' home for good and was responsible for three children 24-7, she quickly learned that it's a lot harder than it looks. Especially to go into it with three. Yeah. Not just one.

Like one is hard enough, with three. Yeah. Not just one, like one is hard enough, but three. Yeah. Now, according to Rose, Anne-Marie was a very quiet, very easy, what she described as a docile child. Oh. Which I don't love that being a way to describe a child. That seems like a word for an animal. Yeah.

But she said that Charmaine was often willful and defiant. Probably because she knew her dad hated her. Yeah, and also she wasn't responding well to Rose being her new authority figure. Who the fuck is this? Well, and at this point, how many has she had? And also, well, Charmaine is like eight at this point. Like she's like, where's my mom? Who are you? Now, so the two of them, Rose and Charmaine definitely clashed way more.

And Rose always felt so frustrated and she would tell Fred about it. And things only got worse once Fred went to prison and Rose was solely responsible for the girls because she just wasn't up for the task. She wasn't a mother. Not long after he went to prison, Rose began resorting to physical punishment whenever Charmaine would act out or defy her. That's all. Neighbors would recall Rose frequently berating Charmaine in public and often saw evidence

of the physical abuse on Charmaine's body. That makes you sick. So like, fuck you, Rose. But no matter what Rose did, and this is really, really sad and I just need to warn you, but it shows you how broken these poor children were. No matter what she did, Charmaine refused to cry. Oh. And that only made Rose angrier. And to know that at like eight years old, she knows like, fuck you, I'm not going to cry.

Well, and her sister Anne Marie was said, she felt like if she cried, she was giving in. And at eight years old to think that way, like that's your kids, that's my nieces. Like eight year, like you're a baby. This case is just. Just to put that into context, that's a second grader. That's a second grader.

That's so sad. Refusing to cry because they don't want to give you the satisfaction because they hate you so much. And they know that you get satisfaction. To have that kind of hate already deserved hate, like you should hate this person. But it's literally been beaten to you. But to know that kind of hate at eight years old, they should never know that kind of hate for anyone at eight years old. Like you shouldn't even know the feeling of hate at that point. No. Like life shouldn't have given you that feeling yet.

Nope. It just kills me. Now in March 1971, just days after Charmaine's eighth birthday, Rose took her to a Gloucester Royal Hospital for treatment of a rather serious puncture wound on her leg. A puncture wound? And Rose said it was an accident. What? It's like, what the fuck did you do?

Exactly, like what? Yeah. Now in May, Rose sent a letter to Fred while he's in prison, where she said that she believed that Charmaine's poor behavior and defiant attitude was beginning to affect Anne-Marie's behavior. She said, quote, you can see Char coming out in Anna now and I hate it. And her frustration can be seen in several of the letters after that. But on visits to the prison, they did everything in their power to look like they were one big happy family because she forced those kids to pretend that they liked her.

Nicole Soule-Northon In front of prison officials. Danielle Pletka Yeah, because we don't want them knowing. Nicole Soule-Northon Like, also, you didn't have to have these kids. You brought them to foster family because she forced those kids to pretend that they liked her. In front of prison officials. Because we don't want them knowing. Like, also, you didn't have to have these kids. You brought them to foster care how many times at this point? Seriously. You almost think it, like, foster care is no fucking joke, but you almost think it would have been better.

I know. I mean, probably not, but. It's all, it's just, ugh. It's so many varying degrees of horrific. Now on a June 15th visit to Fred in prison, Rose was elated to learn that he might get paroled the following week. And five days later, Charmaine went missing. What?

Rose has never said what happened to Charmaine. And she was eight. Eight. But during her trial, the prosecutor told the jury, quote, there is clear evidence that Charmaine was greatly disliked by Rosemary West and that she had been abusive towards the girl in the past. One afternoon shortly before Fred's return home, Anne-Marie, her sister, Charmaine's sister, returned home from school to find Rose at home and not Charmaine.

And when she asked where Charmaine was, Rose told her Charmaine had gone to live with her mother. In truth, investigators do believe that sometime in late June, Rose lost her temper like she always did with Charmaine and inadvertently, possibly, killed the child. Wow. And did her... What happened with Rena? Like, she never... Oh, don't worry, we'll find out. Now, when Fred was finally paroled on June 24th and returned home, Rose led him down to the basement where she had left Charmaine's body.

Fred removed Charmaine's body from the basement and buried her in a grave he dug in the backyard of their rented home on Midland Road. His eight-year-old daughter. That he had never ever loved or treated well. Like that poor girl just knew hatred her entire eight years of life. All she knew was horror. Oh my god. Yeah. And it gets, the fact that it gets worse.

Like that's, that's beyond. Yeah, it's beyond comprehension. It really is. I hate this case. Although she had been out of the picture for some time, Rena was obviously very anxious about the welfare for children and would frequently check in with Fred's family and hope that they would give her some information

because she was basically being like pushed out of the whole scenario. By the summer of 1971, Rena got so anxious and she was so alarmed with Fred's family unable to give her any information about her daughters that she decided to go to Fred and Rose's apartment and demand that he give her the girls. It was sometime in late August that she showed up at Fred's door and he just flatly refused to let her see either of the girls. So in desperation, she threatened to go to Fred's father, Walter, for help. And that's when he said, sure. And he agreed to take Rena to see Charmaine. Oh no.

Now like some of the earlier crimes, Fred denied playing any part in Rina's murder. So details of the murder are murky. But investigators believe that Rina got into Fred's car expecting to be taken to see her daughter, but instead he drove her to a local pub where he got her incredibly drunk. What happened next is again, we only have what we can go on, but investigators speculate that based on the state of Rina's remains that were recovered from a shallow grave in Letterboxd Field, which is not far from where Anna McFall's remains were buried. Interesting.

Investigators believe that Fred left the bar with Rina, who was by then too drunk to really put up any kind of fight. And he strangled her and dismembered her body and placed her remains in two plastic bags that he buried in the field. When she was exhumed, they also discovered a narrow piece of chromium pipe and a red plastic child's boomerang in the grave with her. Because so much time had passed and because Fred refused to take any responsibility for

the crime, no official cause of death could be determined and investigators could never conclusively link him to the crime. That's so frustrating because it's so clear. But he obviously did it. Now in the months that followed, no one came looking for Rena West or even seemed to notice that she was missing.

Because she also came from like an awful background. He surrounded himself with people like that so he could take advantage of them. Rena had spent most of her life, like we said, in and out of trouble, bouncing back and forth between Gloucestershire and Glasgow. And so it wasn't entirely out of her character to disappear for stretches of time

without really telling anyone where she was going. With Charmaine and Rena out of the way now for good, and Fred and Rose bonded over their fucking disgusting way of existing and their shared secrets at this point, they were free to finally marry and begin building the family Rose had always dreamed of. Audible lets you enjoy all your audio entertainment in one app. You will always find the best of what you love or something new to discover. They offer an incredible selection of audiobooks across every genre, from bestsellers and new

releases to celebrity memoirs, thrillers, motivation wellness business, and more. Audible is the destination for thrilling audio entertainment, with highly anticipated new releases and next listen recommendations to habituate every type of thriller listener. Keep your heart rate up month after month with this pulse-pounding collection you can't hear anywhere else. I just started listening to one of the best titles that I have ever come across, Murder Your Employer. I mean, come on. It's also narrated by Neil Patrick Harris and Simon Vance. It is incredible. Such a good listen. I am about halfway through already and I can't wait

to get to the end. It's so good. You need to listen to it. As an Audible member, you can choose one title a month to keep from the entire catalog, including the latest bestsellers and new releases. New members can try Audible free for 30 days. Visit audible.com slash morbid or text morbid to 500 500. That's audible.com slash morbid or text morbid to 500 500 to try Audible free for 30 days audible.com slash morbid. The weather's getting warmer so it's time to say goodbye to jackets and sweaters and hello to shorts and tees. I wanted to update my wardrobe for the long haul without spending an arm and a leg, so luckily I found quints. Now I've got a lineup of timeless pieces that keep me looking effortlessly chic, year

after year after year. Like premium European linen dresses, so soft. Blouses and shorts from $30. Washable silk tops, I mean come on. Timeless 14 karat gold jewelry, and so much more. The best part of all? All Quince items are priced 50-80% less than similar brands.

By partnering directly with top factories, Quince cuts out the costs of the middleman and passes the savings on to us, you and me. And Quince only works with factories that use safe, ethical, and responsible manufacturing practices and premium fabrics and finishes. I really, really love that. I'm obsessed with Quince. I'm very into building a capsule wardrobe. And if you're into that,

Quince is the first place you need to go because truly everything they have is so timeless. And there's a lot of basics that you can get that you can mix and match to just make your perfect outfit. Get warm weather ready with Quince. Go to quince.com slash morbid for free shipping on your order and 365 day returns. That's q u i n c e dot com slash morbid to get free shipping and 365 day returns quince.com slash morbid. 65 day returns, quince.com slash morbid.

She literally murdered his child. Like obviously Charmaine was not his child, but yeah, but like his child for all intents and purposes was like, I know you can't have arena. And then she Rose murdered a little eight year old. He comes home from prison and finds that. Then they kill her mom, and then they say, let's get married. So we can finally start our family. Let's start our family now that we've gotten rid

of everybody that wasn't our family. What? Yeah. And poor Anne-Marie is like, where's my sister? Where's my mom? And she goes through it. She really goes through it. Oh, God.

It's really awful. But over the course of this life, Fred Rust had come to realize that people and women in particular would resist or, you know, recoil from the things that he liked when it came to sex and violence. Like he couldn't find people that really dug what he was into because- It was horrible. He was a different brand. But with Rose, Fred seemed to have found a kindred spirit.

Oh. Yeah. Now, of course it's possible since she's 17 at this point that she was just going along with his plans and indulging his interests in the more extreme fetishes and things that were going on, just to keep him happy. But it can't be said enough that there is a lot of solid evidence

that shows that Rose enjoyed this as much as he did. Okay. Like there's a lot, there's solid evidence that suggests that she was very much a part of this and was not being dragged along for the ride. Now Fred had never been especially shy about his extreme interests. That's it. You almost don't even want to call it a fetish. That's the thing, because I'm like, I don't even know how to experience it.

It's a direct- Well, I guess there's a difference between a fetish and a kink? That's the thing, because I'm like, I don't even know how to experience it. It's a derangement. Well, I guess there's a difference between a fetish and a kink. That's the thing. And it's well, and also his was like a derangement. Like he wasn't doing things with consent. That's the thing. And it's like, that's not, that's not a kink. That's not a fetish.

That's something entirely different. Like the whole point of that kind of stuff is consent. Right. I feel like that's a large part of that. Yep. Which can't be stated enough. Like, you know what I mean? Like, this doesn't represent, like, a BDSM situation

because there's no consent. Or anything like that. Yeah, it's like that's, so that doesn't represent this here at all. This is very much like its own sadistic, awful shit. It's sinister. So he had never been shy about this. Like he'd been pretty open about it, but he had also become aware that others would probably find a lot of these things unacceptable. Well, and I think that's probably another part of it that he found joy in.

He liked that people thought it was gross. Yeah. But in Rose, he found someone who is not only not shocked by his interests, but at times was interested in pursuing them with him. And in the months after Rena's murder, Fred and Rose began engaging in threesomes that were allowing Rose to decide how far she wanted to take this whole thing. And it began when Fred and Rose propositioned a neighbor who they became friendly with, and they knew this neighbor was lonely, so they knew that they would likely agree. And soon they made a habit of going out at night to pick up especially young women. Like, not of age.

Like, this is not, this is not, there's no consent being had here. And it was during these encounters that they began exploring what they would later call like S&M and bondage. But it's not that. That's not what they are. Like, that's not what they are. Again, there's no consent. This is just sinister, awful shit. But unfortunately, this brand of what they were into would become kind of a hallmark

of their murders and their crimes, which is what makes them so shocking. Now, on January 29th, 1972, Fred and Rose were married in a small ceremony at the Gloucester Register office with only Fred's brother, John, there to be a witness. Very few people were made aware of the marriage at all. And those that were, who were aware of it, none really brought up the fact that like, he was still legally married to Reena. Yeah, there is that whole part of it. And even in the paperwork, his first marriage is really not even referenced. Also was anyone asking where Charmaine was? Like everyone just accepted, like did they think she like ran away?

I think the whole idea that he put out there and why he got rid of Rena as well, which he said, Rena has Charmaine and I don't know where either one of them are. And she just like left him with us. She just, yep. Cool. Just took Charmaine and bye.

Got it. Now a few months later, after they got married, Rose became pregnant and they both decided, well, we're going to have a larger family, so let's get a larger house. And this is when they moved from their small rental on Midland Road into a much larger house at the very infamous at this time, 25 Cromwell Street. This is where the majority of their murders would take place. And I think anybody living in this part of the world

knows that address and is probably getting a shiver down their spine hearing that address. It's very- Has their house been demolished? Yeah, I think it's gone. I thought so, yeah. Thank goodness. Yeah.

Now at first, Fred agreed to rent the modest Cromwell Street house from their landlord of their previous home, but eventually he bought the property outright. In order to supplement their income, Fred and Rose decided to convert one of the floors into a room for rent kind of situation. Typically these situations were more like a roommate scenario where a person would rent a room in a house, but that gave them access to the kitchen, bathroom, you know, so on. The like main shared living spaces.

In this case though, Fred wanted to keep the West living space entirely separate from that that was used by any lodgers that were renting. So we installed the kitchen and a wash area on one of the landings. He didn't want them coming into the main house for reasons we now know. Yeah, gee, I wonder why.

Now being in an area popular with students, it really didn't take long for Fred and Rose to find lodgers. In the spring of 1972, 18-year-old Benjamin Staneland moved into the West's home, and he shared a room there with his friend Alan Davis. And as they would often do, Fred and Rose wasted no time here testing the boundaries with their new lodgers. That became their thing.

Testing boundaries. Somebody would come into their life and they would test those boundaries and see how far those people would let them go. And if they wouldn't let them go far enough that they wanted to go, they would just force themselves upon them. Oh. But they like to see if somebody would let them. Now, so it began with Rose sneaking into these boys' bedrooms not long after they moved in

and having sex with both of them. Like having sex with or? According to her, consensual sex. Okay. And she apparently, and even Benjamin Standeland, who was 18 at the time, said later that she discussed it with Fred and he didn't seem to mind. Alrighty. What the fuck?

Yeah. We thought it was weird that like the Black Sisters just watched people sleep. Yeah, that seems downright wholesome at this point. It sure does. Now, around that time, Benjamin Stanaland began dating a local girl, 17-year-old Linda Goff. And like many girls that we're going to hear about in this story, Linda had a very difficult childhood and also likely had an intellectual disability of some sort that actually made it so that she had to attend a school

for children with learning disabilities. Oh, wow. By the time she was in her mid-teens though, Linda had, according to those around her, become very defiant. And at 16, she dropped out of school and she ended up finding job as a seamstress at a local dress shop. Her mother said later, she dropped out of school and she ended up finding a job as a seamstress at a local dress shop.

Her mother said later, she made it clear to us that what she did was her business. Okay. It was through Benjamin that Linda met Fred and Rose West. A few months earlier, Fred's son, Steven, had come to live with the Wests, making the very pregnant Rose responsible for three children. And in June, Rose gave birth to a girl they named May.

And yes, May West. Oh, I didn't even think of that. That would bring the total to four children in this house now. I was like, wait, when did he even have a son? Yeah, he's everywhere. Now Fred and Rose suggested that Linda come on as their full-time nanny in exchange for a room and board, an offer she would eventually and very unfortunately accept. Fred and Rose suggested that Linda come on as their full-time nanny in exchange for room and board, an offer she would eventually and very unfortunately accept.

Now Fred and Rose had obviously committed acts of violent assault and murder prior to 1972, but for the most part, these acts seemed like they were opportunistic, accidental, or what they claim is accidental, I should say quote unquote, or how they saw as solving a problem, like Anna McFall, Rena West. And while they had begun exploring their interests in different sexual interests with others,

but again, they did so sometimes with consent, but oftentimes not. And even when there was consent, they were very much blurring the boundaries on more than one occasion. Yeah, like sneaking into someone's room and then having like that already not super consensual. There's just some, there's a lot of blurred lines happening

even when they're claiming, because they love to claim later that like, no, I don't know, everybody just wanted to have sex with us. And it's like, no, I don't think so. They're literally depraved humans. Like that can't be stated enough here. And by the end of 1972, they began going down a road that just escalated into horror, pure horror.

In late November, 1972, Fred and Rose were on their way to the local pub when they saw a young woman hitchhiking on the road. This is the 70s, remember? Right. Never one to pass up a potential opportunity, Fred pulled the car over and asked this woman, 17-year-old Caroline Owens, where she was going.

She was trying to thumb a ride home, which was nearly 25 miles in the opposite direction. But Fred said, hey, come on in. We can give you a ride. And she accepted. And a lot of times they were able to get people in the car because they saw things like a car seat, right? Oh yeah. And sometimes they had the kids in the car. Good, awesome.

Yep. As they drove, they all chatted about Caroline's life. She was one of 15 children. Wow. And apparently, according to her, she hated living at home. She said she really didn't like her stepfather and she was just very unhappy. And she had recently started looking for a new job and a new place to live. So without hesitation, Fred and Rose said, oh my goodness, we need a new nanny for our children. They don't need one.

They just asked Linda to be their nanny. They literally just got one. And they offered the job to Caroline who said, awesome, I'll think it over. So Caroline called the Wests, because they do play a long game sometimes. Caroline called the Wests a few days later and said after talking it over with her mother, she would accept the job. But almost immediately after moving in, Caroline was like, what the fuck is this? She didn't have a room to herself. She was actually sharing a room with eight year old Anna. Weird. And Caroline liked the West's children. She was like, they were great,

but she was like, Anna's very sad. Oh. She's eight years old. And she lost her mom and her sister. And she said, and she was quoted as saying, she was withdrawn when Fred and Rose were around. And that tells you a lot. So she withdrew very much when they were around.

But she said the most horrifying and off-putting thing in this house was Fred and Rose themselves. She said at times it seemed Rose would intentionally invade her privacy in moments where she was like going to the bathroom, like taking a shower. Like she would just walk into the room like intentionally. She would touch her legs while they were talking. She was very gropey and gross.

And like they did with many of their victims, Fred and Rose were testing to see how far they could take it. Whenever they were alone together, Fred would talk about sex in a very crude and aggressive way. And sometimes he would reveal very unsavory and very scary things to her, but then he would backtrack it. So he would see how she would react and then take it back. And

she said, and so Caroline said, Rose wasn't like, it didn't appear threatening to her. Like she was like something about another woman. You know what I mean? Like you're supposed to feel a little like, Oh, she's fine. And she was like, but I really disliked Fred. She was like, Rose was like weirding me out, but I was threatened by Fred. Yeah, I could see that. She said he was a little man with a big head and she said he was so cocky, a know-it-all. And then she said he also clearly took pleasure in making her feel very uncomfortable. That seemed to be his thing. And between that and Rose's increasingly very overt and very aggressive sexual touching of her, after just a few weeks, Caroline was like, I'm leaving.

And she left. She was like, fuck that. Can you imagine knowing afterwards what she avoided? It gets worse. Caroline doesn't get out like scot-free. Oh, I didn't know that. Oh, God. Unfortunately.

Now, Caroline leaving the house was a great disappointment to Rose, who had actually developed like a strong attraction to Caroline. And she was angry. Like she was very angry. Felt slighted. She told Fred, if Caroline wouldn't have sex with her willingly, then they were going to force her. Oh my god.

Spring has sprung and so has allergy season. But when it comes to the cost of your allergy meds and even other prescriptions, checking GoodRx can help you save and stay healthy. GoodRx is the free, fast, and easy way to find the prescriptions you need at a lower price. With GoodRx, you can instantly find discounts, compare prices, and save up to 80% at the pharmacy. GoodRx is accepted at all the major pharmacies in your neighborhood including CVS, Walgreens,

Rite Aid, Vons, Walmart, including CVS, Walgreens, Rite Aid, Vons, Walmart, Sam's Club, and many more. And remember, GutterX works whether you have insurance or not. Even if you have insurance, GutterX may beat your copay price. I've been there many times. So if you're looking for seasonal allergy relief

with low-cost prescription medications, GutterX is a walk in the park for you this spring. Personally, I always check GutterX before going to the pharmacy because 9 out of 10, pretty much 10 out of 10 times, I'm going to find a lower price. For simple, smart savings on your prescriptions, check GutterX. Go to gutterx.com slash morbid. That's gutterx.com slash morbid. Now the couple quickly came up with a plan that they were going to kidnap Caroline and bring her back to the house. And on December 6th, they went into action. They drove around Gloucester all afternoon together tracking Caroline's movements.

And a little after 10pm, Caroline was hitching a ride from her boyfriend's house and Fred and Rose pulled up and offered her a ride. Oh God. And you know she was probably like, I'm good. Well, and she was like, I was definitely uncomfortable with both of them on more than one occasion, but they'd never made her like overtly feel like she was in danger. She just felt icked out by them. She was like, they're fucking weird, but like, I don't think they're going to do anything

to me. Exactly. So icked out by them. She was like, they're fucking weird, but like, I don't think they're going to do anything to me. Exactly. So she accepted. Oh, no. She said it was also very late and it was very cold. So it didn't take long though, before Fred and Rose steered the conversation towards sex. And Fred asked whether Caroline had had sex with her boyfriend that evening. And she was like, this is weird. I'm not answering your question. Like what the fuck? Like that's not your fucking business. And then she looked around and realized, we're not going in the direction of my house, which I can't imagine that feeling.

And to make matters worse, Rose was trying to touch her as this was happening, even though she was telling her repeatedly stop. Oh, God, this is such a nightmare. Now her panic turned to sheer terror when Fred parked the car in an empty field, far from the city center. Oh God. Rose began attacking her and she said it was her, she was like the way she looked at me is like animalistic.

Yeah. And Fred turned around to face her, called her a bitch and started repeatedly punching her in the face until she lost consciousness. When she regained consciousness, she found that her hands had been tied behind her back, and Rose was wrapping brown packing tape around her head. Oh my god. So she was panicking. Fred started the car again and drove back to the West's house on Cromwell Street, where

they spent the evening terrorizing, torturing, and violently assaulting Caroline. Oh God, this poor girl. And all because she just was like, yeah, I don't want to work with you anymore. Yep. And because I don't want to have sex with you, Rose. Yeah, that part too. Because when everything was done, they acted like nothing happened, took the tape off, and then Fred said, Rose is like this when she's pregnant, because Rose is pregnant.

That's something out of a fucking horror film. Also the fact that, I mean, the fact that they wrapped her head in plastic packing tape, is that what you said? Like a brown packing tape, yeah. Which begins, that's like one of their hallmarks they do to people. You get through all of that and he just nonchalantly is like, yeah, Rose gets sadistic when she's pregnant. And then to think of like an unborn baby, like being there for all of that is so fucking weird and fucked up.

And the kids are in the house. They could have seen this girl be carried in with packing tape on her face. Oh my God. Yeah. That place really is a house of horrors. Like that doesn't even do it justice. No. And it's been described as that many, many times, the house of horrors. Cause what else do you even, I mean, what else do you call it? Cause it truly is. I mean, it's a house of horrors. Like that is a, I can't think of a worse house than this. But Caroline played along at this point in hopes that she might be able to escape.

Smart. She went as far as helping them clean up the house after everything. Oh my God. After being violently assaulted. When they finished cleaning, she played with Heather and Anna for a little while because they were there. Oh my God. And to, after all that sitting down on the floor and playing with their children. And just pretending to play with the kids. And she told Fred and Rose that she would love to return as their nanny and then agreed to join them at the laundry mat because she

was just trying like that survival. That's just like, I got to do what I got to do to get the fuck out of here. That's on another level of survival. And that's on some disassociation. And then to get back in a car with them and hope you're going to the laundromat. So they did. They drove to the laundromat and as soon as they parked, Caroline saw the opportunity jumped out as soon as the door was open and yelled, I'll see you tomorrow and just ran. And when she made it home, Caroline's mother immediately knew something was wrong with her daughter.

Of course. Which was very obvious by just talking to her, but also she had bruising and other injuries on her arms and legs from the whole thing. And Caroline remembered though that Fred told her, I'll kill you if you tell anyone. So she was reluctant to say what had happened, but in time she did tell her mother and her mother immediately reported the assault to police. Now this should be it, right?

That should be the end of Fred and Rosemary West. A hundred thousand, a gajillion percent, but it's the seventies. When investigators showed up at Fred and Rose's door a few days later, their questioning was met with just denials and defiance. Like what the fuck are you talking about? And in cases like this, particularly in a pre-feminist era, it was just a matter of

one person's word against another. It's like, look at her injuries. Yeah. So Rose felt confident that the accusations would really, nothing would come of them. So she said, sure, you can search my car. They searched in the car and they found a button from Caroline's coat and a partially used roll of packing tape, which lined up with what she said. So the Wests were brought in for further questioning and both eventually admitted to the entire

thing. Wait, they admitted to that? Yeah. And then? The case went to trial in early January, and the defense was relentless in their attempts to completely undermine the charges and minimalize the severity of the whole thing. But y'all, they admitted to it. Oh, well, they used the defense that was used in many a sexual assault case.

Caroline was just framed as having offered passive cooperation. What? It was characterized as a willing participant. Yeah, totally a willing participant and having my fucking head wrapped in packing tape. And Fred and Rose are just a harmless couple who maybe got like a little impulsive. That's all. Maybe got a little impulsive. Yeah. So just after a few days, the judge, if we can call this person a judge, not the honorable, considered the evidence and said, quote, we do not think that sending you to prison

will do you any good. And then gave them a fine of 25 pounds and said, bye, go back to your home with your children. You. Yeah. You know what Caroline had to say about that? And I don't blame her. It made me feel like I wasn't worth anything.

That's awful that she felt that way after everything she'd gone through. And honestly, fuck that judge. Fuck Fred and Rosemary. Like, fuck you guys. Fuck that judge. Can you imagine? I don't think putting you in prison will do you any good. How do you feel about that? Yeah, now. How'd that pan out? Honestly, you will...

I would every fucking day say, if I knew that judge, I would literally just walk up to him every day, once a day, and just say, we do not think that sending you to prison will do you any good. I would say it once a day. And then just turn your head and go, widen your eyes like, eh? And then I come back again the next day at noon and say the same thing for the rest of his life. But poor Caroline too, because you hear about this all the time. It's like people put their faith in the legal system. And like, a lot of times, luckily, it does pan out. But the times where it doesn't, and especially way back when, and to sit in that scene and realize,

there's nobody going to protect me from stuff like this. This could happen to me again, and this very thing could pan out just like this. And they'll just claim that I said it was okay and everybody will just believe them. How scary. How scary. Horrified. How do you come to terms with that?

Horrified. And how do you go about living the rest of your life without being the most paranoid individual, even if that's already happened to you, regardless of a judgment, but then to put the judgment hand in hand with that? The emotional damage that comes after that, I can't even conceive of. For life. In my worst nightmares, I can't conceive of it. And these people just say, sure you two go back to your home with your four kids. Like what the fuck is wrong with you?

It's gross. So with each new act of depravity that they committed, Rose proved to Fred that she was as much a willing participant in the violence that he was. Like every time he was like, I saw it more and more that she was just as into this. I don't know that. I mean, it doesn't really sound like what happened to Caroline would have if Rose didn't feel how she felt. No.

And it was the assault on Caroline Owens that demonstrated to Fred that Rose's limits and tolerance for violence were actually far greater than he anticipated. I don't think the limit existed. It does not. In fact, when Fred was interviewed by police in 1994, he admitted that the assault almost certainly would have ended in Caroline's murder, but she managed to escape before they could. Yeah. He was like, we were going to kill her. A hundred percent, not a doubt in my mind. And they decided, he said, we decided then

and there that that was the last time we would let that happen. Her escape. Wow. So Fred and Rose turned their attention back to Linda Goff. And that's their new nanny. Now by early 1973, Linda was no longer having a relationship with the lodger Benjamin at the West House or any of the other ones. And her job as a seamstress wasn't really going well. And so when Rose suggested that she move into their house to become the full-time nanny, she jumped at the opportunity.

In late April, Linda's mother June returned home one afternoon to find that Linda had packed up all her things and left. And she had left a note that said, Dear Mom and Dad, please don't worry about me. I've got a flat and I will come and see you sometime. Love, Lynn." Now, it's unclear exactly how things unfolded once Linda moved into the West House. And this was in the last week of April, but she was there less than a month. So things escalated pretty quickly. Yeah. When the Cromwell Street house was eventually excavated after the arrests, Linda's body was

discovered alongside a quote, mask of wound adhesive tape. They made a mask out of it, similar to the one that had been wrapped around Caroline Owen's face and head. And investigators found several of Linda's hairs stuck in the tape. Leading them to conclude that she had been abused in a very similar way to Caroline. The prosecution later told the jury, the circle of masking tape found with the remains

provides the clearest evidence that Linda Goff was naked and gagged. This provides striking and remarkable features of similarity with Caroline Owen's, and the only common sense conclusion is of sexual abuse before death. I just don't understand how that judge looked at that act alone, wrapping her head up in masking tape. Like that's something, that's such a, that's such a specific pathology to me. Yeah.

Like that takes a specific pathology of person and for them to just ignore that is wild. To not be shocked by that. That should make you go, whoa, whoa, whoa, who the fuck are you to that you did this to this person? Like you telling me she was willing or not? Wait a second. Like that's not a kink, that's not BDSM, that's not any of the above.

To be able to wrap somebody's head up in masking tape who's unwilling, I don't really know anybody that would be willing. Yeah, and either what, like she was not a willing participant in that. Now, once Linda was dead, Fred had dismembered her body and buried her under the carport in the yard and covered over her remains with stones, dirt, metal,

and other debris. As with the several of the other sets of remains that we'll see, there were small bones missing from the body when they were finally exhumed. Like finger and toe bones. So they were tortured. Rose, meanwhile, had gone through Linda's belongings and kept some stuff for herself, some clothing and jewelry,

and then just got rid of the rest. And it gets worse because Linda, like we'd said, people who knew her and grew up with her said she was a defiant, very headstrong child. So when she left home in April, her parents decided to kind of give her some space before trying to convince her to come back home. Yeah.

Her mother said her father and I felt, let her have her head for a bit, she'll be back. That's what June Goff said. Which they've gone through that before, so you can understand. Yeah. But when three weeks had passed and they still hadn't been able to get in touch or heard from her, June became concerned and started calling Linda's friends. Few people had any details of where she had gone, but June was able to narrow her search down to Rose West after having seen her car on one occasion when she came to pick up her daughter. So June knocked on the West door and Rose answered, wearing Linda's slippers.

No. No. And this disturbed June alone. Of course. But she said she looked past Rose into the backyard and she could see some of her daughter's clothing hanging on the line to dry. Oh my God. And Rose said she stayed with us for a little bit, but after a few days, you know, she said something like she was gonna stay at a local hotel, so she's just gone. But I washed her clothes. With her clothing on the line back there.

So she was walking around that house wearing Linda's slippers after whatever the fuck they had done to her. Oh my God. And her poor mom seeing those slippers on her feet. And she's a mom. You got mom intuition. You know something bad happened here. And to see all your daughter's clothes on a clothing line out back. Oh my God. That's beyond. I keep saying that, but I don't have another response.

But June Goff and her husband would go on to report their daughter missing to the local authorities and they would spend years searching for her at Salvation Armies, other service organizations anywhere they could think that she could be until finally learning of her fate in the mid 1990s. And for those who did know Linda was staying at the West's house, like the handful of lodgers that were there, Rose told them that Linda had been asked to leave after she hit one of the children. Wow. So just smeared her name in the process. That's nice. And just deflected what she does. Yeah, exactly.

I'm going to leave it here for now because there's a lot more that's going to be in part three. Yeah. And this was heavy enough on its own. Because there's a lot more that's going to be in part three that's... Yeah, and this was heavy enough on its own. But... Ugh, they're just, I... The fact that people like this exists on the earth. And I think like you add in the idea that they are just consistently bringing children into this as well.

And that they're, like you said, like their children are home during this. Like are here, are used as pawns, are being abused themselves. Hearing stuff. Like, and as we'll find out, like they're being sexualized themselves by their own parents. Like it's, this is really bad. It's a house of whores. It is a house of whores. It truly is.

Now I get, I knew this case, I knew some of the bad, horrible things in this case, but diving deeper into it. Yeah, I didn't know everything. I don't think I knew the detail about the slippers. I don't know if my psyche saved itself, but I think I forgot about the packing tape of it all. No, it's honestly, it's beyond comprehension. It really is.

It's beyond comprehension. And it's crazy that because like you hear of a case like this and you're like, wow, it's so fucked that two people Like this exists in this world found each other and found each other But then you think of it and you think of all the other cases that we've covered Yeah, and it's not just two people like this not exist in the world. Yeah people in general Just exist in this world that are capable of things like this. And that is the fucking scariest thing to me. It is.

It just made, I want to hug my kids. Yeah. Every time I do one of these, I'm like, excuse me, I'm going to go downstairs and hug them. Honestly. Oh, these are the ones that I like talk about in therapy. Right? It's, this one's a rough one, but again, it's these kids lived a rough one. But again, these kids lived through this. Yeah.

Some of these women lived through this. So it's important to tell their stories. Absolutely. So it's like these fucking monsters. True monsters. Well, go hug your children. Yeah. Do something nice for someone.

Yeah. Like, do something good for your psyche after this. I don't think it's good necessarily to end the day on this. Do some self care. Yeah. Do a little ped cure or something. Yeah, do literally anything that makes you feel a little lighter. Go do that.

Definitely. Because I'm going to. And we hope you keep listening. And we hope you keep it weird. You know I'm not going to say it for this one. No, not this one. I'm sorry. If you like Morbid, you can listen early and ad-free right now by joining Wondery+, in the Wondery app, or on Apple podcasts. Prime members can listen ad-free on Amazon Music. Before you go, tell us about yourself by filling out a short survey at Wondery.com slash survey.