Morbid - Episode 566: Fred & Rose West (Part 3)

Episode Date: May 23, 2024

Part three focuses on the pattern formed by the West's subsequent murders, as well as a hiatus from killing that was marked by countless sexual assaults.Thank you to the wondrous Dave White of Bring Me the Axe Podcast for Research!ReferencesAmis, Martin. 2000. When darkness met light. May 11. Accessed March 21, 2024. https://www.theguardian.com/theguardian/2000/may/11/features11.g2.BBC News. 1998. Fred West 'admitted killing waitress'. March 25. Accessed March 19, 2024. http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/69928.stm.—. 2001. How many more did Fred West kill? September 27. Accessed March 19, 2024. http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/1567038.stm.—. 2021. The 12 victims of Fred and Rosemary West. May 27. Accessed March 18, 2024. https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-gloucestershire-57182844.Bennett, Will. 1995. Step-daughter Charmaine was first to die. November 22. Accessed March 19, 2024. https://www.independent.co.uk/news/stepdaughter-charmaine-was-first-to-die-1583071.html.Birmingham Evening Mail. 1974. "Missing girls theory." Birmingham Evening Mail, January 7: 1.Birmingham Post. 1968. "Missing waitress mystery deepens." Birmingham Post, January 23: 2.—. 1974. "Student missing for six days may return ton university-police." Birmingham Post, January 2: 2.—. 1968. "Yard detectives join search for Gloucester girl." Birmingham Post, January 9: 1.Campbell, Duncan. 1995. "How a string of girls came to die in depraved and appalling circumstances." The Guardian, October 7.Duce, Richard. 1995. "West's suicide avenged killings, QC tells jurors." The Times, November 16.Duce, Richard, and Bill Frost. 1995. "Court told of depravity at 25 Cromwell Street." The Times, October 7: 4.Evening Post. 1968. "Helicopter joins hunt for Mary." Evening Post, January 8: 1.Evening Standard. 1974. "Have you spotted this girl?" Evening Standard, July 4: 18.Frost, Bill. 1995. "Cromwell Street murders case man is dead." The Times, Janaury 2.Frost, Bill, and Richard Duce. 1995. "I'm being made a scapegoat, says West." The Times, November 2.—. 1995. "No place for sentiment, West jurors are told." The Times, October 4.—. 1995. "West: I fell under Fred's spell." The Times, October 31.Gloucester Echo. 1994. "Did builder know Mary?" Gloucester Echo, March 8: 3.—. 1994. "Graden bodies: Who were they?" Gloucester Echo, March 2: 1.Gloucestershire Echo. 1995. "From angelic child to coldest of killers." Gloucestershire Echo 5.—. 1995. "Fred West found dead." Gloucestershire Echo, January 2: 1.—. 1995. "I'll see you in court, Rose." Gloucestershire Echo, January 4: 1.Knight, Adam. 2014. Fred West's brother denies incest claims. November 7. Accessed March 17, 2024. https://www.herefordtimes.com/news/11587578.fred-wests-brother-denies-incest-claims/.Lee, Adrian, Tim Jones, and Damian Whitworth. 1996. "Fred West's brother hangs himself." The Times, November 29.Ovington, Paul. 1974. "Hunt steps up as fear grows for Lucy, 21." Western Daily Press and Times, January 4: 1.Sounes, Howard. 1995. Fred & Rose: The Full Story of Fred and Rose West and the Gloucester House of Horrors. New York, NY: Open Road Media.United Press International. 1995. "British jury convicts West of 10 murders." UPI Archive, November 22.West, Mae, and Neil McKay. 2018. Love as Always, Mum: The True and Terrible Story of Surviving a Childhood with Fred and Rose West. London, UK: Seven Dials Press.Williams, Martin. 1994. "'Our sister is still alive'." Gloucester Echo, February 26: 1.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Wondery Plus subscribers can listen to Morbid early and ad free. Join Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or on Apple podcasts. You're listening to a Morbid Network podcast. We get support from Coho, the proud partner of the NBA playoffs. Coho is a master card with a simple to use app that makes managing your finances easier. With Coho, you can earn cash back, build your credit history, borrow when you're in a pinch and so much more. No hidden fees, no fine print and no catch.

Just an app that's made for your money. They have plans to suit all your needs and you can build your credit history. Coho users have seen an average of a 22 point increase in their score in three months, which is great for those starting out or just need help rebuilding their credit. Join over 1 million Canadians and sign up for your free trial now. Download Coho on Google or App Store today,

or at www.coho.ca for more details. Get a $75 eGift card for NBAstore.ca when you sign up with the promo code morbid 75 that's code morbid 75 Hey weirdos, I'm Elena. I am Ash and this is morbid. No, it's just morbid. I don't think morbid.com exists. No, I don't think it does. And if it does, it doesn't belong to us. Yeah, it's not ours.

So what's up, brothers? It's Vanderpump Rules finale night. Yeah. That's how I feel. The season was hard and interesting, but I'm very worried it's going to be the last season of Vanderpump. I feel like it might be. Yeah. You know?

I want them to go out on a higher note, personally. Yeah. Like, this just feels so sad. Yeah. I think it was just like, you know, they had to ride the wave of Scandival. Yeah. And then I feel like there was like only so many places you can go after that. Uh-huh.

And none of them are really positive. That's very true. So I feel like, I do feel like there was a cosmic shift though after that that I was a little confused about. I felt a cosmic shift myself actually. I didn't even talk about this. This is now like a Bravo podcast. There we go. You know, sometimes it doubles. But when I went to Sir, I felt a cosmic shift.

I think a lot of people feel that way. So many people commented on the pictures that I posted and were like, Oh my God, girl, did you go to Sir? And I was like, yes. Yes, I did. And no photos exist of it. Yeah. I'll say no more than that. I just won't elaborate.

It was just an experience. Yep, you could call it that. But on the way to Sir, I had this Uber driver who was the coolest lady ever. Her name is Pauline. And she was like, oh, you guys are going to Sir? Like, are you big Bravo Vanderpump Rules fans? And I was like, oh, like, 100%. You're like, that's why we're going to Sir.

That's why I live and breathe. That's why we're going to Sir. That's why I live and breathe. That's why we're going to Sir. And it turns out she has a podcast called Tender Loving Care, question mark, and it's wicked good. And she also had so much tea that like, she had so much tea that like,

I can't even share all of it here. But she has some that like the tea then goes onto our podcast. So definitely go listen to that podcast. Oh, look at that. And I told her, I was like, I'll go listen to that podcast. Oh, look at that. I told her, I was like, I'll shout you out. Girl. Yeah, I love that.

It was so good. Well, speaking of podcasts, I have a podcast. Shout out to you. You do? I think I've shouted out this person's podcast before, but like I've been listening to it lately and she's just delightful and does such a good job. It's the Hello Sydney podcast.

That's such a good name for a podcast. It is so good, because her name is Sydney. Yeah, how do you, like, you're just, you have to have a podcast if your name is Sydney and you're into horror. It's Horror Chronicles on TikTok. She's amazing. Yeah, we love her.

She's a great follower. We love her. We love Sydney. And I'm telling you, her podcast is a really great listen. She, she did, she like covers every horror movie you can think of. She does deep, deep dives. She knows her shit. She's someone who you can I like go to her for horror movie recommendations.

Like if she says a movie is good, I'm like, it's probably good. Like, I'm not worried about it at all. That's good to know. I could probably use that for Scream because our podcast Scream usually like whenever I pick my movies, I'm just like Googling something. Like, yeah, you're just trying it out. Yeah. Like giving it a try. Cause you know, like I'm new to the horror world. Yeah. Go to Sydney. She'll, she'll steer you in the right direction. She just covered all four hell house LLC movies in one episode. There's four. It's four.

And you've only shown me one. No, I've shown you two. No, I've only watched one. Oh, I've watched one, two. I don't think I've watched three and I watched part of four. I actually have to finish four. I love them. Yeah.

I think they're good. Nothing beats the first one, but the ending of the first one fucked me up. Hell House LLC is such an underrated movie. I agree. I think it's so good. No, I'd, oh, we're halfway. I know. And it's got, that in-houses October build always make me just in the Halloween mood.

I feel like Halloween is like, last year we had like a really good Halloween, but there was a lot going on like personally, and I like was... I had to like postpone my wedding. I was like in the thrust of wedding planning. And I feel like this year, like not having like a big party, like having to plan a big party, like looming over me is gonna be great. Oh, yeah. You can just concentrate on Halloween. Yeah, because I loved my wedding, obviously.

Like it was absolutely fantastic. But once you're done with that you're like how love being married Let's celebrate the shit out of Halloween. Oh and that reminds me that sorry We're just like saying I need a minute before we get into part three. So this is called Procrastinating yeah, this is like delaying the inevitable is what this is called. But we did a Livestream show at Blackcraft Cults in Salem. It was so fucking cool. The other day.

And it was, we covered the Salem witch trials and the story of Martha Carrier. And it was so much fun that, I mean, Blackcraft Cult is so amazing. I love that story. I love that brand. I do too. A big loyal Blackcraft Cult girly.

So it was really amazing to be able to do it there. They were all so sweet and they walked us through their haunt that they have in Salem. No, I'm so fucking excited. Guys, when I tell you, I can't wait. This haunt is so elite. No, it's on another fucking level. Every room we walked in, I kept being like, this is my Disney. This is my Disney. I love it here. No, that's a direct quote of what she was saying. I kept turning around and just being like, this is beautiful.

I love this so much. They did such a good job. So if you happen to be in Salem during the spooky season this year, definitely go to their Haunt because they're awesome people, awesome brand and the haunt is fucking top tier. No, it's so good. So just had to say that. Also one more thing, just while we're at it, we have a lot of new merch over on the Wondery store.

We have new drinkware, we have new t-shirts and we have key chains that are really cute. Yeah. So if you guys want to go grab those, go ahead. Yeah. And if you know, if you don't want to, you don't have to. Yeah. If you want to, go right ahead. If you want to, go for it.

We're not pressuring you. We would never pressure you. Do what you want. Be your own person. Live your own life. They're really comfy though. But yeah, I think, oh, and you can also, one thing I am going to pressure you into doing is buying the pre-ordering the butcher game. I'll always pressure you into that. No I won't pressure you only if you feel like you want to.

I will pressure you. You have to. But it's coming out September 17th and you can pre-order it. And there's a playlist to go along with it on Spotify. So you can search the butcher game playlist that Zando has on their thing and I've shared. So it's a cool playlist that I listened to while I was writing it. And it's not like bullshit, I really,

that's my playlist that I was listening to while I was writing it. I have very specific playlists. Not even just like in the act of writing it. She listened to that like throughout the entire writing process. Like when we would go get coffee in the morning together, that would be on it.

And it's a baller playlist. Yeah, it's like I have to do that for each thing that I write. It just puts me in a place. So that's fun and you can pre-order and pre-ordering is really fun. I like pre-ordering. We're going to be sneaking some peeks out there, little quotes from the book that we're going to be popping out onto social media every now and then so you can get a little taste of what you're getting into. And it'll be fun. So you can go to thebutcheregame.com and that'll give you links to all the places you can pre-order the book. Yay. If you would like to do that.

And again, it's really cool because sometimes you get the book like a day before you're supposed to when you pre-order it. And that's like a national holiday. That's really fun. I already finished it and I'm like really excited to read it again. I love that. I feel like I have to before it comes out like to the earth. To the earth. Which I kind of feel like even reading it like for the first time like with my my my arc, my advanced reader.

I'm an advanced reader and I have a copy. Like I feel like that was like my second go through because I always read it while you're writing it too. But it's like bits and pieces. I also can't wait to listen to the audiobook. Yeah, it's all very exciting. It is all happening, Sheena Shea. Tonight on Vanderpump Rules and here in this office.

And you know what? I guess we've gotten through all the fun stuff. I know. Talked about all the frivolous stuff. You don't think there's anything else? Talked about all the exciting stuff. Yeah. And shouted some podcasts out.

Which we love to do. Which we love to do. Which we love to do. And now we have to get into part three of Fred and Rose Wells. Okay, part three means 75% done by the end of it. We're getting there. This one's gonna be tough, but all of them are. In their own ways.

Again, a blanket statement over all of them. I'll give, before each one, I'm gonna give you the blanket trigger warning that this is very brutal. Sexual assault is all over this. Very brutal sexual assault. And there's, you know, child abuse, there's abuse of all kinds. It's really awful. So, you know, if this isn't for you, I get it. And we'll give you something else in the next one. So here we go. When we last left off, we talked about Linda Goff, who went missing. Her mother, June, had showed up at the West's house looking for her and Rose answered the door wearing

Linda's slippers. And she saw all her clothes. Yeah, she saw all her clothes hanging on a line in the backyard. And Rose just told them, yeah, I don't know. She said she was going to a hotel. And said that and like told everybody else that she like hit her kids.

Yeah, that she had to let, they had to let her go because she hit one of the kids. Like shut the fuck up, Rose. It only gets worse from there. After the murder of Linda Goff, they waited seven months before finding their next victim. They did go long periods of time sometimes between victims. You wonder what they were doing in the middle of all that though?

That's the thing. I'm like, it was all their ire on their children at that point. Or other. I mean, I'm sure there's victims that we don't know. Oh, I'm positive there's victims we don't know about for sure. The details of this one, the abduction and murder are kind of murky, you know, like many of them, because we're kind of going off of their account, Fred and Rose's account. And also, you know, the evidence that they could get from these things, but you just kind of have to piece it together. But like many of Fred and Rose's victims, Carol Cooper, who was known as Kaz. Oh, what a cool nickname. Isn't that a cool nickname? Kaz. She had a difficult upbringing.

Like most of them, they seem to prey on these, you know, people who were vulnerable. Her parents separated when she was just four years old and she lived with her mother. In 1966, when Carol was eight years old, her mother passed away. Oh, God. And she was sent to live with her father. And when she reached adolescence, she became, you she was sent to live with her father. And when she reached adolescence, she became, according to people around her, rebellious and defiant. She got in trouble a lot. She was kind of in and out of having issues with authorities and authority

figures. She would occasionally run away from home. She was just going through it. I mean, I think if my mom died at eight years old, I might feel similar. Yeah. So by the fall of 1973, Carol's father lost patience with the entire thing and she was placed at the Pines children home in Worcester. This was about 25 miles from Gloucester. Now on November 9th, 1973, Carol was given permission by the staff at Pines to go on an overnight visit to her grandmother's house. Which like this whole thing is just really sad. You know what I mean?

Like you have to get permission to go to your grandma's house. I don't know. It doesn't like, it all just like makes my heart sad. It does. But she was going to be coming back the next morning to the Pines to attend a doctor's appointment. So there was very strict like, this is what you're doing. The next day, Carol returned to Worcester

for the appointment as expected. But later that day, her boyfriend dropped her off at the bus station around 9.15 PM. The expectation that she was going back to her grandmother's house, but she was never seen again after being dropped off at the bus. And of course, the bus stop. Now a huge, very extensive search was made

in the days following her disappearance, but they couldn't find any evidence of her. No sign of Carol, no indication where she could have gone. I mean, it was like she vanished into thin air. Investigators believe that what happened is Fred and Rose West picked Carol up while she was hitchhiking and brought her back to the house. I'm not sure why they think she was hitchhiking since it was a bus stop. I don't know where that comes into play, but

that is what most sources are saying. They believe she was brought back to the house where she was tortured, raped and murdered, then dismembered by Fred and buried in the cellar. My God. When her remains were excavated from, because she was buried in the cellar and then moved. So she was excavated from her grave and they found the tape mask was still wrapped

around her skull. And pieces of rope and braided cloth were also found in the grave. And like the others, there were several tiny bones missing from her hands and feet. Which is just so disturbing. And that seems to be a thing. Yeah, because you mentioned that in the last part with a couple of the bodies. And there was also a cervical vertebrae and breastbone that were missing.

Whoa. Yeah. Investigators believe they were kept as trophies. Oh, that's heinous. Well, Carol appeared to have suffered the same fate as their previous victims. What they did find was something a little unusual with her. Yeah. They found, quote, an unusual gouge mark in the skull, which suggested that Carol may

had been stabbed in the head. What? Yeah. Oh my God. Yeah. And again, she had the same like masking tape mask over her face and head. Like that one piece of their pathology. It's so disturbing.

I'm not kidding you. In the middle of the night last night, I woke up and it's all I could think about. It just, yeah, I can't stop thinking about it. It's just, because it's like so there's so many layers to it. Like it's, they're inflicting such terror and panic. And to think of even doing that. Well, and they're also, there's also clearly some kind of thing where they're dehumanizing this person.

They're taking away their face. Yeah, they don't want to see them. Like you think about it, like you remove the head from somebody's body, they don't feel like a human anymore. Right. You know what I mean? Like it takes away a little bit of the humanity there.

Yep. So covering their head and face in masking tape makes them like a doll. Yeah. And it's like, that's like a whole other issue here. It's really a lot to think about. Yeah. We'd like to thank EmbarkVet.com for supporting Morbid. Go to EmbarkVet.com to get free shipping and save $50 on the breed and health test with promo code morbid. Now again, Sydney and Blanche are the two loves of my life.

And what I wanted to find out with my embark DNA test for my pups was genetic health risks. Because as you guys also know, I had the love of my life Bailey for 12 beautiful years. And at the end there, we had a lot of health stuff going on with her and some of it came out of the blue. Some of it, we had no idea that she was even predisposed for until we got Embark and it let us know what was going to be coming next kind of. So we kind of wanted to do that with Sid and Blanche. And now we're so excited to be going through the Embark experience with my new pups. We were swabbing it, we were sending it back.

It felt like we were doing like a fun DNA test, like when you do it as a human, but now you get to find out about your little furry babies. And we can discover more about them. We can discover, you know, what their breed mix is, what their genetic health risks are. And we can also maybe connect them with some more family members, because you've seen those cool little like puppy family reunions. I want one of those. Who doesn't?

Get the dog DNA test that is trusted by millions. Right now, Embark has a limited time offer on their breed and health test for our listeners. Go to EmbarkVet.com to get free shipping and save $50 with promo code morbid. Visit EmbarkVet.com and use promo code morbid to save $50 today. Imagine falling in love with the perfect partner. Charming, caring, handsome, successful, and utterly captivating. But what if that love was nothing more than an elaborate con orchestrated by your alleged best friend? Sometimes the perfect match can be a dangerous game. I'm Tiffany Reese, host of Something Was Wrong. Join me for season 20 as we unravel the

chilling story of a group of friends ensnared in one of the most elaborate catfishing schemes of all time. Meet the survivors who thought they found love, friendship, and trust, but instead found themselves entangled in a web of lies all spun by one person. Uncover the chilling truth behind Brody, a fictitious persona meticulously crafted to deceive and control women for over a decade. Follow Something Was Wrong on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts. You can listen to Something Was Wrong early and ad-free by joining Wondery Plus in the

Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts. Now, up until this point, we've said it many times, most of like all the West victims had, you know, a few things in common. And one of the biggest things they had in common was that they had very difficult or traumatic backgrounds or home lives. Like that's, that's been like across the board. And, you know, as goes oftentimes the case with serial killers, personal histories really makes like these ones can make it easier for them to groom, easier for them to manipulate, easy to make them get into a car with a stranger

except a ride. And unfortunately sometimes, and this is why they choose people that have difficult backgrounds, sometimes they believe they're going to be less likely to be missed because people are going to believe that they ran away, oh, they always disappear. And these kids have been groomed their whole lives to survive. Yeah. You know, but they've, so they'll get in a car with somebody to get to the next place

because they need to get there. Right. You know, like that's, they're not thinking about, Oh, this person could be the end. And that just like kills me that they picked people like kids that they believed no one would look for. Like that's- It's sad. It's fucked up.

Yeah. I don't even know. But their next victim came from a very different background. Really? And her absence was very much noticed very quickly. Okay. 21 year old Lucy Parrington was from an upper middle class family. Her father was a chemist. Her mother was an architect. Wow. Her uncle Kingsley Amos was a well-known

novelist. Okay. Um, and unlike the previous, the other, you know, the previous young women who had, were described as having like defiant personalities, getting in some trouble, like, you know, kind of being a little nomadic in the sense that they would be in and out of, you know, people's lives, living situations. Lucy was described as very popular. She was a clever, very, very well liked woman. She was, she would like, you know, she followed the rules.

She didn't get into trouble. She didn't disappear. She had very close bonds to people around her. You know, she followed the rules, she didn't get into trouble, she didn't disappear. She had very close bonds to people around her. And in December 1973, Lucy was in her final year at Exeter University, where she was studying medieval English. Oh, that's cool. Which is such a cool.

I was like, wow, Lucy seems cool. She does. They all seem like they had these like unique personalities. Some of them weren't appreciated. had these like unique personalities. Some of them weren't appreciated for those unique personalities. But she had also recently converted to the Roman Catholic faith and took her spirituality very seriously. That Christmas, Lucy had been staying with her mother in Gloucester for the break. And on the night of the 27th, she got a ride to Cheltenham to visit her friend Helen Render.

Now according to Helen, they hung out together. They spent the evening talking about furniture and working on Lucy's application to the Courtauld Institute in London, because that's where Lucy was hoping to actually continue her medieval studies. So she was going to keep going. So they had like a nice night, like, you know, planning for the future, hanging out, talking, like, you know, being friends. Lucy had left Helen's house around 10, 15 PM and she walked a short distance to the bus stop. She never

boarded the bus and she was, she wasn't even seen at the bus stop in fact, but Helen said she was walking to the bus stop. Maybe they got her seen at the bus stop in fact, but Helen said she was walking to the bus stop. Maybe they got her like near the bus stop. Now, when she didn't return that evening, Lucy's mother called the police immediately because again, this is not, this isn't a case of she could be coming later, maybe she got hailed up, no.

Like, nope, this isn't her. The following day, a massive search began. And given that she was an adult because she was 21, and it was a holiday, there was a hope that maybe she had met a boy or gone to visit more friends from investigators. But obviously her family knew that was not the case. And as the days passed, even with the investigators,

that hope was seeming a little misplaced. They were like, this isn't making sense. A police spokesperson told the press six days after Lucy went missing, as time goes on, we are getting more concerned. But this girl has been very happy at the university. And if she had gone off, we would hope that she would return with the rest of the students on Thursday. Now, the concern and anxiety and honestly panic started to grow when Thursday came and

went and there was still no sign of Lucy. She didn't show back up at the university. The chief superintendent Bill Turner said, we must assume that some harm has come to her. From what we have been told by her relatives and friends, she is not the type of girl that would disappear voluntarily. Now, in the first weeks of January, an extensive search went underway. Investigators were dragging the local rivers and ponds,

any water sources, uniformed air officers were conducting a door-to-door search, roadblocks were set up to question drivers alone along the main roads, and nothing. No sign of Lucy. By mid-January, detectives started to wonder whether there was a connection between the disappearance of Lucy. By mid January, detectives started to wonder whether there was a connection between the disappearance of Lucy and Carol Cooper,

who had gone missing two months earlier. Right. So a police spokesperson said, "'Details of the Worcester case are being considered by us to determine the possibility of a link in the girl's disappearance.'" Now, despite the suspicion that Lucy and Carol's cases were connected, 20 years would pass

before investigators would finally learn what happened to both of those women. 20 fucking years? 20 years, they had no idea what happened to Lucy and Carol. And even when they found it out 20 years ago, we're still getting vague details here. Right. Lucy, unfortunately, was among the bodies exhumed from the West cellar. Oh, that's so sad. Her body was dismembered and they described it as being, quote, crammed into a shaft between

leaking sewage pipes, along with a rope, a knife, a section of masking tape and two hair grips. Like the others, there were several small bones missing from her skeleton. And although the details about what she must have endured while she was in that house are unknown, probably thankfully, detectives believed she was held captive in the West Home for nearly a week. Oh, wow. Yeah. So do you think, because obviously this is now like a pattern of like the missing bones, do you think that was torture done while these girls were still alive?

Or do you think it was when he, when Fred dismembered them, a trophy kind of thing? I could see it unfortunately both ways. Yeah, I feel the same. They are sadistic. Right. They're sadistic. And just to think like she was there a week, like what were you doing to her for a week? Yeah.

And they, I mean, they tortured and they took great pleasure in torturing people. And they think she was there for a week because like Fred admitted that she was? Well, that belief is actually based on the fact that on January 3rd, Fred checked in at the Gloucester Royal Hospital with a serious laceration on his right hand. And they believe he'd sustained this injury while he was dismembering her body. Oh, okay.

Yeah. Wow. Now, when he was interrogated later, Fred claimed that he and Lucy had been having an affair. Girl buy. Which I'm like, shut the fuck up. She wouldn't touch you with a 10-foot pole. I'm like, you really thought people were going to buy that?

And he said, purely sex, end of story. Okay. Nobody, nobody, no. Nobody, Fred. nobody, Fred. No. And according to Fred, Lucy had become pregnant and started making demands of him. Meanwhile, it's like, dude, we have her body. We can tell if she's pregnant or not.

And also she got pregnant within a week. And also she has close bonds to everyone around her. She wasn't gone. Like, they didn't, she never met you. Exactly. She didn't know who you were. She wouldn't have touched you with a tenfold fold. It's such a ridiculous story.

And he said, she said, I want to come and live with you and all this crap. And I just grabbed her by the throat. Her wanted me to see her parents. Her wanted me to do bloody everything. Given that Fred lied about literally everything in his life, his background, his victims, everything about, I mean, he was a lying sack of fucking sewage. This is bullshit. Of course it is. This is bullshit.

It makes absolutely no sense. We know enough about Lucy, we know about enough about people She knows her family her friends everybody around her to know that this is absolute Horseshit and not only is it horseshit, but how fucking dare that piece of shit It makes so much sense though because it's one more way for him to yeah fuck with Yeah, and it's like no you snatched her you kidnapped her you abducted her like fuck you She would never cut, fuck you. She would never come. Like, fuck you, dude. I hate these people so much. Now it's complete. It's bullshit. And the most likely scenario and the one put forth by the prosecution was

that Fred and Rose saw Lucy waiting for the bus and offered her a ride. Lucy was not one for hitchhiking and was pretty cautious like by all accounts. But, and this is rough, they suspect that one or more of the children was in the car and the presence of the children put her at ease. And that's like, they put this forth during the trial that they believe that's what happened. It makes sense. Once they got her back to the house, she went through, you know, a similar fate as the rest of the victims.

And four months passed before Fred and Rose went out to get another victim. So they go through some big periods of time. But it seems to be after like a rather intense. Yeah, very brutal, awful. On the evening of April 15th, 1974, 21 year old, Therese, I hope I say her name right. She's from Switzerland, so I want to make sure I say it right. Therese Seigenthaler. She went to a party at a friend's house to mark the start of her vacation. Like I said, she was born in Switzerland and Therese had been studying for a secretarial degree at Woolwich Polytechnic. Her instructors really liked her. They said she was a very

quiet girl, but very confident. On the night of the 15th, she went to a party in South London and stayed the night there. And she told her friends her plan was to hitchhike back to North Wales and take the ferry to Ireland. That was where she was gonna be spending her break in Ireland. And again, all this hitchhiking and everything, very normal for the time. Oh yeah, we hear it all the time.

Yeah. Now she was, everybody was aware of the young women who'd gone missing in recent months. And so her friends kind of warned her about hitchhiking and were like, oh, I don't know, like it's getting all scary out there right now. But Therese just laughed and said, I can look after myself, I'm a judo expert. Which I can understand that confidence.

Of course. So the following morning, Therese returned to her apartment to grab a few personal items and then went to catch the ferry from Wales. Now, assuming she had managed to get the boat to her destination, no one even realized Therese had gone missing until she didn't return to school the week after Easter break. Oh, man. So they just were like, oh, she made it to the boat. They just assumed.

Yeah. Why would they not? Right. Like that she told them their plan, the plan. Okay. She went and executed the plan. Like why would we think anything else? But then she didn't come back to school and they were like, wait a second. Wait. Um, Teresa was reported missing to police on April 26th and investigators quickly learned that she had actually already paid in advance for some of the upcoming tests that she had later that spring in the polytechnic university.

So she was, she wasn't disappearing. Yeah, she had plans set in stone. She had paid in advance. So it was very unlikely that she would just decide not to return and give up that money. Now a search was mounted, but there was really, again, no evidence to work of. She vanished, there was no leads.

She left to go to the ferry and she didn't make it. Like, where did she go? So the investigation just kind of went nowhere. And when they searched the house on Cromwell Street later, investigators did find the remains of Therese Seigenthaler buried in a grave in front of a false fireplace at their home. So again, she went missing. No one knew anything. Years went by and no one knew anything. Her family didn't know anything. Her friends didn't know anything. She just vanished into thin air. And then when they dig up finally, like catch Fred and Rose and dig up the Cromwell Street home, they find her. I can't imagine that kind of like, it's the same thing as all of these other like as Lucy as's the same thing as all these other,

like as Lucy, as like, you know, all these people, you have no fucking clue. Like Carol, you don't know what happened to them for years. Their family has no idea, no leads. And you're filling in the blanks for all those years. And just wondering what, and probably having the littlest sliver of hope that maybe, maybe they did just go off and they're living a life and everything's okay and they just needed to be themselves. Who knows? And then it's like, and then you find out

that they've caught these two fucking horrific serial killers and they're digging up their home and your loved one is one of those people. Like your loved one has just been buried in their cellar. That you had no idea that they were in the clutches of these people at any point in their life. And that must just be the biggest punch to the face. Absolutely.

Like, oh, it's beyond. She was found in an awful way. Okay, I just wanna be clear about that. There were no clothes found with her remains, but she had a scarf folded and rolled and formed in a loop around her head and tied in a bow. Detectives believe that it was used to secure her mouth. Oh my God.

It was literally tied in a bow. That's the most haunting detail. Yeah. And unfortunately, Fred said very little about Therese during his interrogation, but during Rose's trial, the prosecutor pointed out that Therese had no connections to the area and was likely picked up hitchhiking to the boat. And they said the only reason to abduct her must have been so that she might be abused

either sexually or physically or both. And I believe it's so obviously she was found in a horrific way. There's one other victim that is found in like the thing that is found with her is very unsettling just to be, just so you're aware that that's coming out. Nancy's love story could have been ripped right out of the pages of one of her own novels. She was a romance mystery writer who happens to be married to a chef. But this story didn't end with a happily ever after. When I stepped into the kitchen, I could see that Chef Brophy was on the ground, and I heard somebody say, call 911.

As writers, we'd written our share of murder mysteries. So when suspicion turned to Dan's wife, Nancy, we weren't that surprised. The first person they look at would be the spouse. We understand that's usually the way they do it. But we began to wonder, had Nancy gotten so wrapped up in her own novels, there are murders in all of the books, that she was playing them out in real life? You can listen

to Happily Never After, Dan and Nancy early and ad-free right now by joining Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or on Apple podcasts. In the 1980s, Frank Farian was riding high as a successful German music producer, but he was bored. German pop was formulaic, dull, and oh so white. But Frank had bigger dreams, American dreams. He wanted to create the kind of music that would rival larger than life artists like Michael Jackson or Run DMC.

So he assembled a hip hop duo, two two once-in-a-lifetime talents who were charismatic, full of sex appeal and phenomenal dancers. The only problem? One very important element was missing, but Frank knew just how to fix that. Wondery's new podcast, Blame It on the Fame, dives into one of pop music's greatest controversies. Milli Vanilli set the world on fire. But when their adoring fans learned about the infamous lip syncing, their downfall was swift and brutal.

With exclusive interviews from frontman Fab Morvin and his producers Frank Farian and Ingrid Seegoth, this podcast takes a fresh look at the exploitation of two young black artists. Follow Blame It On The Fame on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts. You can listen to Blame It On The Fame early and ad free right now by joining Wondery Plus. More than seven months passed before they found another victim. And this one is 15 year old Shirley Hubbard. 15 years old. Yep. So Shirley, unfortunately was like some of the other victims led a difficult life

for someone so young and had a history of getting into trouble, running away, that kind of thing. After her parents separated when she was just two years old, she actually was put into foster care and bounced between a lot of homes until she was six. When she was six, she was placed with a foster family named Hubbard. And that's where she was living at the time she disappeared. Like several of the other victims, Shirley had been in and out of trouble in the months before her disappearance and had even run away just a month earlier. So that's why it was tough when she disappeared because she had been in this like phase.

You know? When you wonder, like you don't know what she was experiencing and foster care. No, you have no idea. Like, ugh. And again, she had been through a lot. So it's like she was, they act out, you know? Absolutely.

It happens. Now a few weeks later, after she was found after running away, she had started dating a boy named Daniel Davis, whose brother coincidentally had dated Carol Cooper. What the fuck? Isn't that wild? Yeah. Yeah.

It just shows you what a what an area this is. Yeah, like a smaller, small concentrated area. On November 14th, Shirley spent the day working the makeup counter at Debenham's department store in Worcester. Her shift ended that afternoon and she met up with Daniel and the two bought a bag of chips and sat by the river until around 9.30 PM. And that's when Daniel walked her to the bus station, a bus station, and waited with her until the bus arrived.

Wow. Good boy. Good job, Daniel. station and waited with her until the bus arrived. Wow. Good boy. Good job, Daniel. They had plans to meet back at the bus stop the following day, but Shirley didn't show up. So he even waited with her until the bus came. Right.

Daniel assumed at the time that she had found something else to do. He felt a little dejected. He was like, that's a bummer. Yeah. But soon after the Hubbard's reported Shirley missing to police and the investigation opened up. But like the other girls, it appeared as though she had vanished into thin air.

Right. No trace. But obviously, what happened was far worse. Now, in court, the prosecution speculated that Shirley had either been kidnapped or somehow manipulated into going to the house on Carmel Street willingly where she was abused, raped and murdered. Her remains were discovered in a part of the basement investigators referred to as the Marilyn Monroe area.

Because the wallpaper in that section of the room was all Marilyn Monroe. Which I don't know why that just like gives me the... Nicole. It's such a strange juxtaposition. Nicole. Now, this is the one I was talking about. Shirley is the one that I was talking about that she's found in a really like unsettling manner. In court, the pathologist who exhumed the body referred to it as, quote, an extremely horrific discovery. Like the others, Shirley's head had been wrapped entirely in a tape mask, but inserted through the mask, it was so inserted through it was a plastic tube placed in the nostril portion which protruded from the front. And a second

piece of similar tubing was also found at the burial site. When the prosecution asked what purpose this mask could have served, the pathologist said, quote, that can only have been for sexual gratification so that her living but restrained body could be used and abused at will. Oh my god. That's like, that part has been sticking with me That's like... That part has been sticking with me for days. So they just kept her alive like that for however long? Just enough that she could breathe out of her nose. Oh my god. How are people this sick?

That's, I... Like how are people this absolutely fucked in the head? And she's, I like literally want to. Yeah, it makes me sick. Like I've literally feel sick to my stomach in this one, like sick to my stomach. Like that part, I mean, all of it is just, but that for some reason is just the image of that, like the visage of that in my brain is I keep having to wipe it away to try to make it go away.

Cause I'm like, just don't even try to conjure that image in your head. Cause fortunately I've never, I've never looked at any kind of crime scene thing about this. No, I could never. And I will not be doing that. But the image my brain has conjured of that mask is bad enough. Yeah. I genuinely, like, how does your mind go there?

That's the thing. I'm like, who thought of that? And how the fuck did they find each other, dude? Yeah, that's the thing. And procreated. And to think that Shirley is in that state while there's three, four kids. Four kids. Oh my God.

Yeah. Like, honestly, like I'm not kidding you. It makes my stomach turn. No, it's just a wild thing to imagine. Now by this point, a pattern appears to have emerged where Fred and Rose are kidnapping and killing at least one young woman every five or six months at least. And with the exception of Lucy and Therese, most have come from dysfunctional upbringings,

like trauma upbringings. Unsurprisingly, the victim profile is almost certainly what allowed them to continue killing for as long as they did. Yeah. In fact, of the victims that went missing at the time, the murder of Lucy was described as quote, the one that attracts the most anger. Right. Which is sad. Yeah. And it was the one that received the most coverage because I know part of that was because of her uncle's fame as a novelist. Yeah. I wondered that. of that was because of her uncle's fame as a novelist. Yeah, I wondered that. Had people slash the media expressed as much outrage over the other victims.

It would have been different. Many of them, you know, because nobody was really expressing as much anger because they disappeared. We don't know where they went. Well, they were a runaway. Right. And there's not like a, there's not a ton of family members like contacting the media or like getting in touch with anybody because unfortunately some of these girls just didn't And there's not like a... There's not a ton of family members like contacting the media

or like getting in touch with anybody, because unfortunately some of these girls just didn't even have anybody. Exactly. They either didn't have anybody or the people they had had been through these moments of them disappearing for a little while. So they were just like, well, you know, and then the media is like, well, they're a runaway, what's the story? You know, like they probably just ran away.

And you know, they were in trouble and such. Should always be a story. Absolutely. And if they, if again, if people or the media had made or expressed any outrage about these victims, it's possible that connections could have been made. Yeah. More connections and connections to the West themselves. I mean, maybe some of this carnage could have been avoided,

which is really frustrating. But Juanita Mott was a lot like the other young women who had been picked up by Fred and Rose. But in her case, they didn't abduct her because she was lodging in their home. She was one of those lodgers. Juanita's parents divorced when she was very young and her home life had been difficult. When she reached her teen years, you know, the same

kind of story, she was described as rebellious, very, you know, defiant, very strong willed. And so she dropped out of high school and left home when she was just 15 years old and ended up bouncing around from one place to another just kind of staying wherever she could. Trying to get by. And that's finally when she found that cheap room for rent at 25 Carmel Street. And she moved in for just seven pounds per week and she had moved in during the summer of 1974.

Now despite the cheap rent charged by Fred, Juanita's income was pretty inconsistent. And so she kind of would like bounce out of the house into the house, like she could pay it sometimes, she couldn't pay it other times. And at the time of her disappearance in April 1975, Juanita was 18 years old and had been staying with a friend in the small town of Newent in Gloucestershire. Since she was unemployed at the time and didn't have money for public transit, she often would hitchhike or rely on that kind of thing to get around. And investigators believe that Fred and Rose would have regularly traveled

through that place. And they theorize that sometime on or around April 12th, they must have passed by. Juanita hitchhiking the route, stopped to offer a ride. And she was like, Oh, I've lived in their house before I know them. Why would you think there's any danger? You've literally lived in their house. Like, why would you have strangers you're getting in a car with? I know them. So she would have no reservations about getting out of the car with them and probably wasn't even alarmed when they returned to the West's house rather than going where Juanita was headed. Yeah.

I'm sure they explained it away like, Oh, I just have to grab this or, you know, whatever. And she's like, okay, I know you guys. It's fine. Yeah. Like no worries. The prosecution said during Rose's trial, the conclusion is perfectly clear. Juanita was brought to Cromwell street, almost inevitably having been picked up while hitchhiking. She died while she was being degraded, either as being part of what her attackers found doubtless fun or because she could not be released afterwards.

Delilah Rieman Doubtless fun. Aliza Bruner Because they had fun, they said. They admitted that they found enjoyment. Delilah Rieman That's the other thing. It's crazy to come across a story like this where people do these things. And it's even crazier when they admit how much joy they got out of it. That they had fun with someone in the most horrific terror you can ever imagine. Like your brain just doesn't comprehend how that's even possible. Like how are their brains

capable of having fun when people are dying at your hands? Like, I don't, obviously, I don't get it. No. I just, and that's why it's such a out of reality kind of thing. When you look at it, you're just like, I don't connect with this as another human being even, because, and this is like a silly example, but it's just a way. When, even on like TikTok, when like, you know,

like stupid, like parent influencers will like scare their child for likes. Yeah, I hate that. Like that's fucked up, like fuck you if you do that. Agreed. And I will get like so angry seeing that. I'm like, no, not interested. Like I'm like, don't show me that.

Because seeing a child, even when I know they're fine and their parent is doing this to just be a dick because they want their likes, seeing fear on somebody's face like that, especially a young person or sadness or any kind of like, that will fuck me up for the rest of the day. Like I'll be like, I will think about that kid I don't know for like the rest of the fucking day, even though they're perfectly safe likely and everything is felt like. And that's because that's how we're designed as humans.

Like you're supposed to feel empathy and compassion. Seeing someone in fear, genuine fear, seeing someone in pain, seeing someone sad, seeing someone upset, that's supposed to make you stop what you're doing. And to think of one person completely void of that, finding another person completely void of that, and teaming up is so...

Beyond. So much more than nightmarish. I'm trying not to say beyond because I just keep saying it. Oh, I did. Well, honestly, it feels like, it just feels like existential. Otherworldly. It just feels like totally outside.

I can't, it doesn't feel like we're on the same plane of reality, which like, I don't think we are. No, we're definitely not. Like, I really don't. I don't feel like we are all on the same plane of reality that Fred and Rosemary West of the world are on. I feel like there's just some disconnect there.

I mean, there's many disconnects, but like there is, I don't, someday we'll know, but like someday we'll find out what that disconnect is. Because I just can't, I can't. I can't. I cannot. No. It's, these kind of things are just like so fucked. We've been doing this for six years.

And it still absolutely blows my mind. It will never fail to turn my stomach, these kind of stories. In these specific kind of cases, like these really gruesome ones, they... Like the Myra Hinleys and the... It's the couples that like for some reason really get me. And even like the Albert Fish one, I think, because I was kids and like this one obviously has kids. It just, it really sticks with you.

The people that are like just... the sadists who find enjoyment. Yeah. You know, those are the ones that you're just like, that I don't even know if psychiatry can explain you. I don't, I don't think anything can explain you. Like, let's just go fully paranormal. Honestly, like this, this one's been tough, but don't worry, we are going to, I'm kidding. We're going to take a little, I am going to need a paranormal moment.

That's not as heavy, I think. Yeah. Hopefully I can do it. I always say that and then I end up being like, sorry, I'm doing a really awful case now. Yeah, even hella brutal lately. So maybe I'll find, maybe I'll do like a spooky road or spooky castle, something, something, you know, or a survival tale. There you go. Sometimes those are like,

sometimes those can be tough too. We'll find something that, you know, I can, I can take a second for the next one. Yeah. But now out of our, any sense of being humanity here, once they got back to the house, investigators believe that Juanita was sexually assaulted and then was gagged with a ligature made from two of Rose's nylon socks. And she was hogtied with plastic covered rope, similar to that used on the washing line in the backyard. They were both, they were all found in her grave with her remains. That's awful. It's so weird to think of these people even like having socks and the washing line.

Yeah, they're just like having human things. That's so human. Yeah. Welcome to the small town of Chinook where faith runs deep and secrets run dark. In this new crime thriller, religion and crime collide when this small Montana community is rocked by a gruesome murder. As the town is whipped into a frenzy, everyone is quick to point their fingers at a drug-addicted teenager.

But local deputy Ruth Vogel isn't convinced. She suspects connections to a powerful religious group. Enter federal agent V.B. Laro, who has been investigating a local church for possible criminal activity. She and Ruth form an unlikely partnership to catch the killer, unearthing secrets that leave Ruth torn between her duty to the law, her religious convictions, and her very own family. But something more sinister than murder is afoot, and someone's watching Ruth. With an all-star cast led by Emmy Award nominee Santa Layton and Star Wars Kelly Marie Tran, Chinook plunges listeners into the dark underbelly of a small town where the lines between truth and deception are blurred, and even the most devout are not who they seem. Chinook is available to listen to now exclusively

with your Wondery Plus subscription. You can subscribe to Wondery Plus on the Wondery app, Apple Podcasts, or Spotify. After she was killed, Fred dismembered Juanita's body and buried her in the basement alongside the others. He also kept several of the bones again. By the time her remains were exhumed in 1994, too much time had passed to really say what the cause of death was. But a pathologist speculated that given the way the ropes were tied, because she was tied up like hog tied, he believes it was most likely strangulation that she was killed by. But he said there was also an unusual fracture at the base of her skull that was caused by what he believes is a hammer.

But the angle at which it was inflicted would have prevented the amount of force necessary to kill her. So that was just... So that would have not been her the fatal blow. Oh my God. Yeah. So she went through that fully alive. Oh yeah, she went through horrors.

Yeah. They remind me of the toolbox murders a little bit. Yeah. Yeah. They did shit like this, like torture. Now during their most prolific period in the early to mid 1970s, local police were not entirely ignorant to Fred and Rose West. They were known for sure.

Yeah. They had that whole fucking court case where the judge was like, I think it's fine. Yeah, it mean, they had that whole fucking court case where the judge was like, I think it's fine. It's fine. And in fact, throughout this period, police often visited the house at Cromwell Street to interrogate Fred about petty thefts or minor drug offenses that he was regularly committing at the time. To think that they were just one floor above all

of these missing girls. Yeah. And I'm like, no one questioned if that was a safe place for children. I can't imagine that these people came off as stellar parents. Like, no one was thinking maybe just throw a report in. Right. Like, I mean, these kids had already been dropped off and picked up from CPS or foster care how many times.

Yeah, like I think nobody wanted to make like some kind of wellness check on those children if he's committing like offenses all the time. And like even young 20 something year old nannies are like, yeah, the children seemed really like completely different when the parents were around. It's like you would think someone in law enforcement would notice that. Well, and given the like frequency with which young women were disappearing at the time during this time period, it's pretty fucked up that they never suspected the West's of being involved, especially considering their histories, which we've already gone over, that they got totally scot-free

away with one. And they had known connections to some of these missing girls. It's not like they were entirely, not all of them for sure. Yeah. It's not like they were entirely, not all of them for sure. Like some of them really did just vanish into thin air by all accounts and then were found later. But there were a couple of that like at least had. I mean, lived in their house, rented a room from them, worked for them as a nanny.

Like there were ones that you could, victims that you could sit there and say, okay, well there is a connection. No one looked into it. Do you think they did and it was just that they just didn't have the evidence? I don't know. But it's, I mean, I can do a search warrant.

It seems like the shit was everywhere. Well, and it did seem that the increased attention on Fred's petty crimes at the time did seem to act as like somewhat of a deterrent for them. At least for a little while because after the murder of Juanita, three years passed before they killed again that we know of. I was going to say. Now Fred and Rose may have put a hold on the murders between mid 1975 and you know, the

middle of 1978, but that didn't mean that they stopped victimizing girls entirely. We just don't know if they murdered anyone. With an increased focus on missing women in the area, it would have been unwise on their part, if you're looking at it from their point of view, to keep abducting girls. So instead, they shifted their attention to girls living at Jordan's Brook House, which was a home for troubled girls.

Nice. It was established in 1970 as kind of a last stop for teenagers who'd been kicked out of every other institution and foster home. This home was less of a care facility and it was kind of like borderline juvenile detention center. For Fred and Rose, these were precisely the type of vulnerable and emotionally fragile young women that Fred could manipulate. In the summer of 1976, a 15-year-old resident, referred to only as

Miss A, moved into Jordansbrook after two years spent bouncing around between other placements. Before that, she had lived with her biological parents, but was removed from the home once the authorities learned that she was actually being sexually abused by both her father and her brother. Oh my God. I mean these poor girls. Yeah. Like you hear like again, just a life of knowing nothing. Just going through it.

But awful shit. Yeah. And like not having any home. No. And by that point, Fred had made a habit of offering these girls rides whenever he saw them on the street. So he was like, yeah, he was using this. Philanthropic.

And he would quickly become a shoulder to cry on for some of these girls and included Miss A. Now, a few months after moving in, Miss A ran away from the school and went right to the West's house. Because she probably had built a relationship with Fred, not like a romantic one. Yep. But she was met at the door by Rose, who was dressed, quote, only in her bra and pants and made sexual advances towards Miss A. Gross.

It's unclear whether anything occurred at the time, but according to a court testimony given at Rose's trial, Miss A returned to the house a little over a month later. And that's when she was sexually assaulted by Fred and Rose. According to that testimony, she was taken into a room where there were two other naked girls who she did not know. After being undressed by Fred, the girls were secured with packing tape and sexually assaulted by both Rose and Fred. Oh my God. Next, they taped Miss A to the bed and quote, Frederick West had sexual intercourse with

her while Rosemary West fondled her thighs. I hate that they say he had sexual intercourse with her. Thank you, because that bothers me. No, he raped her. He raped her. She's a 15, 16 year old girl. He raped her and she's taped to the bed. What the fuck are you saying?

He had sexual intercourse with her. He raped her. They both raped her. Oh my God. This is so horrible. After the assault, the girl was allowed to leave, likely because Fred and Rose assumed that she wouldn't say anything about the attack. Who's she going to tell?

Probably that she didn't have anybody to tell. That's the thing. Who's she going to tell? I'm sure they thought she wouldn't be believable anyway. And she didn't. She didn't tell anybody because she didn't have anybody. A few weeks later, Ms. A returned to the house with a can of gasoline she'd taken from the gardening shed at Jordan's Brook, intending to burn the house down. But definitely say that he had sexual intercourse with her again.

Yeah, totally. They raped her and she was fucking angry. And I don't blame her for being angry. And honestly, I wish she had been able to. Yeah. But she's a literal child. Yup. She's a child. So she lost her nerve when she reached the door and went back to Jordan's brook.

When the prosecutor asked why she didn't report the assaults to anyone, Miss A said it was because quote, she felt ashamed and guilty. Which is so that's exactly what Rose and Fred want. That's exactly what they want. And that's what so many women and men feel when they're sexually assaulted. Yeah. You feel ashamed. You feel guilty. And that's what the abuser preys upon. Of course. And that's exactly what they do. When Fred and Rose did decide to kill again,

they chose yet another victim who was unlikely to be reported missing. It's unclear how they first met or how the relationship actually began, but Shirley Ann Robinson was either 17 or 18 years old when she met Fred West in the spring of 1977, and their relationship quickly became sexual. Like many of the other victims, Shirley had come from a very difficult background and had been placed in foster care periodically

throughout her entire life. In April, she moved in with Fred and Rose, and at least initially, the sexual relationship was with both Fred and Rose, and it was consensual according to all involved. But things changed when Shirley became pregnant with Fred's baby and Rose became abusive towards her. Like Anne McFall, Shirley, who had been raised in chaos, saw this baby as her ticket to stability and a future with Fred. It's the same kind of story. It is. In November, 1977, she wrote to her father in Germany to tell him all about her new relationship and even included a picture

of her and Fred holding hands saying, quote, this is the man I'm going to marry. What do you think of him, dad? I've never been so happy in my life. Oh, no. Now, whatever she said in her private letters was one thing, but eventually Shirley began telling others in the house that she and Fred were going to be married, which Rose did not like. By late fall, things in the West House had become wildly tense. Fred had begun working with Rose's father to build a small cafe downtown, which it's like, so he's just building a cafe downtown. No, thank you.

Don't you dare get anywhere near a cup of coffee, Fred. No, don't you do it. And the two men planned to operate as a small business together. But the stresses of that project had increased the fighting between Rose and Fred because they were pieces of shit and they hated each other in all actuality. Like they could, neither one of them knows love, you know, like that's not how that works. And they had taken it out on Shirley as well. By the time the cafe project was finished, Rose had successfully convinced Fred to end his relationship with Shirley.

At this point, their attitudes towards Shirley became very cold and very hostile. Now, eventually the tension became too much and Shirley moved out of her room in the main house and started sleeping on the couch of another lodger, Liz Brewer, who lived on the second floor. Okay, still at the house. Yeah. One day in early May, Liz Brewer returned home to find Shirley and her belongings completely gone from the room. So she asked Fred where she had gone and he told her she'd gone to visit relatives in Germany. Yeah.

Given that Shirley was more than eight months pregnant and her baby was due to be born the following months, that seemed a little strange to Liz, that she would just be jumping on a plane. Eight months pregnant. But she didn't know Shirley that well. So she didn't really question it that much. Cause she was like, okay.

And she's probably seen all kinds of weird shit around this house. And she's like, I'm not getting my nose in it. Now, unlike the other murders, which were committed, you know, because they are fucked up and they got some kind of gratification, sexual and otherwise from them, investigators believe that the murder of Shirley Ann Robinson was committed because she presented a threat to red Fred and roses relationship, according to Rose. Yeah. While the other bodies appeared to have been dismembered in a methodical manner, Shirley's

body appeared to have been, quote, hacked into pieces with either an axe or a cleaver. And he's, first of all, he's able to do all of this to all of these women, but there's a almost like fully grown baby in her belly. Yes. Like, like people have babies at eight months. Yeah. There's a almost fully grown baby in her belly. People have babies at eight months. He just killed a baby too. His baby. His own baby and dismembered.

He just killed his own baby infant. And dismembered. Yep. Both people. Yep. What? Why did I not remember this from that? I've heard this case before.

I did not know any of this because I never looked this hard into the case until now. I mean, I've heard it told before, but- I knew the overview of things. I did not know all these details. Wow. Once he had finished dismembering or hacking apart Shirley's body, Fred buried her in the back garden because he'd run out of space in the basement. Okay. He had run out of space.

Ran out of space. Now, taking Fred at his word that he, that Shirley had gone back to Germany, no one reported Shirley missing and assumed she had just gone to visit family in Germany. That's where her family was. So no one here could say otherwise. A short time later, when the Department of Social Services reached out to Shirley at Cromwell Street, which was her last known address, they were told she no longer lived there. The DSS worker on the case, Peter Gregson, just couldn't shake the feeling that something at the West House wasn't right. That's a pretty solid feeling. And he didn't believe the explanation he was given about her having gone back to Germany. But the problem was he had little authority to press the matter any further and the case

was closed. But he was like trying. He was like something's amiss. By 1979, Fred was often preoccupied with the cafe at this point because now he's got a thriving business, everybody. What the fuck? That's... Yeah.

What? And Rose was, you know... Not a cafe. Yeah, a cafe. And Rose was supplementing the income by engaging in sex work, which Fred would often watch through one of the various peepholes he'd installed in the walls of the room that Rose used to entertain clients. Okay. So maybe it was this voyeurism that was enough to satisfy by him for a little while.

For the time being. But for whatever the reason, more than a year went by before they killed again. And we're going to stop there. That's good because I'm about to break into pieces. Because that's a lot. That's good, because I'm about to break into pieces. And more is coming. So I'm going to stop there before part four, which is going to be the final part, because it needs to be the final part.

Yeah. Okay. So we hope you keep listening. And we hope you keep it weird. Bye. Bye. Oh keep it weird. Bye. Bye. Oh my fucking God. Yeah. So Thank you. If you like Morbid, you can listen early and ad-free right now by joining Wondery+, in the Wondery app, or on Apple Podcasts. Prime members can listen ad-free on Amazon Music. Before you go, tell us about yourself by filling out a short survey at wondery.com slash survey. A bloodbath tonight in the rural town of

Chinook. Everyone here is hiding a secret. Four more victims found scattered. Some worse than others. I came as fast as I could. I'm deputy Ruth Vogel. And soon my quiet life will never be the same. You can listen to Chinook exclusively on Wondery+. Join Wondery plus in the Wondery app, Apple