Morbid - Episode 567: Fred & Rose West (Part 4)

Episode Date: May 27, 2024

Part four focuses on Fred & Rose West's final crimes, and the events leading up to their arrest. Their subsequent trials would become the focus of the nation as people learned of the atrocities performed at their home. Thank you to the wondrous Dave White of Bring Me the Axe Podcast for Research!ReferencesAmis, Martin. 2000. When darkness met light. May 11. Accessed March 21, 2024. https://www.theguardian.com/theguardian/2000/may/11/features11.g2.BBC News. 1998. Fred West 'admitted killing waitress'. March 25. Accessed March 19, 2024. http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/69928.stm.—. 2001. How many more did Fred West kill? September 27. Accessed March 19, 2024. http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/1567038.stm.—. 2021. The 12 victims of Fred and Rosemary West. May 27. Accessed March 18, 2024. https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-gloucestershire-57182844.Bennett, Will. 1995. Step-daughter Charmaine was first to die. November 22. Accessed March 19, 2024. https://www.independent.co.uk/news/stepdaughter-charmaine-was-first-to-die-1583071.html.Birmingham Evening Mail. 1974. "Missing girls theory." Birmingham Evening Mail, January 7: 1.Birmingham Post. 1968. "Missing waitress mystery deepens." Birmingham Post, January 23: 2.—. 1974. "Student missing for six days may return ton university-police." Birmingham Post, January 2: 2.—. 1968. "Yard detectives join search for Gloucester girl." Birmingham Post, January 9: 1.Campbell, Duncan. 1995. "How a string of girls came to die in depraved and appalling circumstances." The Guardian, October 7.Duce, Richard. 1995. "West's suicide avenged killings, QC tells jurors." The Times, November 16.Duce, Richard, and Bill Frost. 1995. "Court told of depravity at 25 Cromwell Street." The Times, October 7: 4.Evening Post. 1968. "Helicopter joins hunt for Mary." Evening Post, January 8: 1.Evening Standard. 1974. "Have you spotted this girl?" Evening Standard, July 4: 18.Frost, Bill. 1995. "Cromwell Street murders case man is dead." The Times, Janaury 2.Frost, Bill, and Richard Duce. 1995. "I'm being made a scapegoat, says West." The Times, November 2.—. 1995. "No place for sentiment, West jurors are told." The Times, October 4.—. 1995. "West: I fell under Fred's spell." The Times, October 31.Gloucester Echo. 1994. "Did builder know Mary?" Gloucester Echo, March 8: 3.—. 1994. "Graden bodies: Who were they?" Gloucester Echo, March 2: 1.Gloucestershire Echo. 1995. "From angelic child to coldest of killers." Gloucestershire Echo 5.—. 1995. "Fred West found dead." Gloucestershire Echo, January 2: 1.—. 1995. "I'll see you in court, Rose." Gloucestershire Echo, January 4: 1.Knight, Adam. 2014. Fred West's brother denies incest claims. November 7. Accessed March 17, 2024. https://www.herefordtimes.com/news/11587578.fred-wests-brother-denies-incest-claims/.Lee, Adrian, Tim Jones, and Damian Whitworth. 1996. "Fred West's brother hangs himself." The Times, November 29.Ovington, Paul. 1974. "Hunt steps up as fear grows for Lucy, 21." Western Daily Press and Times, January 4: 1.Sounes, Howard. 1995. Fred & Rose: The Full Story of Fred and Rose West and the Gloucester House of Horrors. New York, NY: Open Road Media.United Press International. 1995. "British jury convicts West of 10 murders." UPI Archive, November 22.West, Mae, and Neil McKay. 2018. Love as Always, Mum: The True and Terrible Story of Surviving a Childhood with Fred and Rose West. London, UK: Seven Dials Press.Williams, Martin. 1994. "'Our sister is still alive'." Gloucester Echo, February 26: 1.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

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or at www.coho.ca for more details. Get a $75 eGift card for NBAstore.ca when you sign up with the promo code morbid75. That's code morbid75. Hey weirdos, I'm Ash. And I'm Alaina. And this is Morbid. This is morbid. Yeah. Oh, we're almost done, everybody. Oh my goodness. It's terrible guys.

This is a terrible case. I really is. But you know what? We're on the last part of it. Okay, okay. And we're gonna at least get a little bit of something at the end. We'll get a resolution. I like that. That's all we're looking for in life, you know, is a resolution.

Cool. Yeah. Do you have any shit for the top? Not really. I'm really excited to see, uh, the ghost movie. That's exciting. That is exciting. I'll be with you. So excited about that.

Party. Very psyched. Isn't there's like a big reveal people are saying? Everyone's assuming there's going to be a reveal of what's happening to Papa. Um, cause we're going to get some lore in there, of course. What is happening to Big Pa? I'm dying to know what's happening to Papa. It did say in the trailer, this is not a story about death.

And I was like, what the fuck does that mean? Rebirth. So that's, I'm who knows, who knows? I'm here to know when I'm supposed to know. The lore runs so deep. It's so deep. Yeah. I'm constantly learning new lore.

And you're constantly like, I'm like, wait, what? I'm constantly sharing new lore with you that I've found. Sometimes I'm like, wait, who is the dad? It's very creative. It is really creative. And it's cool that it's like a band. Yeah, like it's fun. Cause it's not like a typical band.

No, it's fun as hell. I love it. I love how much you love it. I love how much I love it too. Your little eyes are so bright right now. They're twinkling. I was like, your little fucking eyes. Your little beady fucking eyes are just twinkling.

Your little beady fucking eyes. No. But what do you got? You know what? I'm on a sourdough journey as everyone in my life knows. She is on a sourdough journey. It's overtaken my life. Drew went to his mom's yesterday and he was like, yeah, Ash is on a bread journey. And she thought

that was the funniest thing, a bread journey. But I wanted to shout out like all the weirdos for helping me because I had this beautiful loaf that I made and then I cut into it and I said, or nor, or nor, what happened here? Cause it's so involved. One weirdo in particular, I don't know if I should say their name or not, cause they didn't say if I could, you know who you are, sent me an entire video on how she does her sourd, and she's a fellow Massachusetts girlie.

What a bad ass bitch. And it was so nice, she was like, okay, let me tell you what I do, and she explained it so co, like cohesively. And then another weirdo who's a head baker at a bakery was like, like walked me through this whole process. I mean, like this massive message of like, in depth what to do.

And it was like so helpful. And that was among like 50 other messages that I got from people, like just trying to help. See, that's the nice part of social media. It is. And that's the only part that I pay attention to. That's the only part I like, to be honest. Pretty much. When things like that happen, you're like, well, shit.

This is what it's for. Let's come together over bread. Come together over bread. Is that a dole with me? But yeah, I'm really excited. So I tried again. I love that. And I have two loaves in the fridge right now, but I proofed them last night on the counter.

Don't worry, guys. For close to like 11 hours, because I keep it pretty cold in my house, so it's okay to bulk ferment for that long. Listen to me, million terms and stuff. Just being a sourdough girly. It's really fun. If you want to go on a little journey with yourself and like you have the time, it's fucking fun. Like, and you have the time. It takes time. A lot of time. Yeah. I was like, I don't think I'll be able to

do this when I have children, but we'll try. But you know what? Who knows? Give it a shot. And then in other news, pretty soon we're gonna be releasing our bonus episode, so get ready for that. We have been listening to the audible original title, Desperate Deadly Widows, with four women authors. So like... Which is so fucking cool and different. I love that.

Yeah, and it... Like, when I saw four different authors, I was like, wow, like, what was that process like? But listening to the title, it's so cohesive. It is, it feels like it was written by one person. It's like they became a super author together. They became mega author. It's like Megadesk and the office, mega author.

I love it. And they all just created this cohesive tale. That's really fun. And each woman in the book is like, just like has like such a distinct personality. Like I feel like it's almost like, it's not the same subjects at all, but it's almost like Sex and the City

where you're like, oh, I'm a Miranda. Yeah, you can like pick out who you are in this. Yeah, so we're gonna be discussing that like way more at length ad nauseam. Ad nauseam, like book club style. Yeah, and we're gonna have a special guest who you guys know and love. Yeah, you know them already, you love them.

And it's gonna be a lot of fun. They are like the perfect guests for this title. Literally the perfect guests. And I love them so much. I'm sorry if you guys hear my stomach growling. She's been loud. She has. I said something earlier and your stomach was like, what?

You also might be able to hear my chest rumbling. It's like crackling. Yeah, you're still going through it. Yeah, I woke up this morning and I thought I was much better and then, well, I am. But my, every time I cough like afterwards, it's like a rumbling like settles. It's like a thunder clap. Yeah, it's like a crackumbling like settles. Like a rumble. It's like a thunder clap. Yeah. It's like a crackling of my chest.

You know, it's hard out here in these streets in the world. Everybody's getting sick. It's cold and flow safe. And you know what? This story is not going to help anybody from not feeling sick. Yeah. Because you're going to feel sick. But it's the end.

There's a resolution at the end, at least some kind of resolution. It's not like they, I'll tell you right now, they don't get away with it and go riding off into the sunset never to be heard from again. So don't worry about that. They don't somehow get off on a technicality. No one's getting out of jail. Good. So don't worry about that.

They're gone. Bye bitches. That's what it is. I was trying to think of the the Jacks Mannequin lyrics of the resolution song. Oh yeah. I need light in the dark as I search for the resolution. That's how I feel. I love it. I need some light in the dark. Yeah. I'm not gonna give it to you for a little while, so. I apologize for that. So when we last left you, we were talking about the really horrific murder of Shirley Ann Robinson. Yeah. And I had said that it was over a year before they next killed again, because again, they would go through these long periods of time where we assume they didn't do, they didn't

kill anyone, but nobody's entirely convinced of that. Yeah, I can't say that I am. And also it sounds like police were starting to kind of like, they were there more often, so I'm sure it was harder to hold people captive. For sure. But I wonder if there's other areas that we could find victims in. Yeah, I agree.

Now, like so many of the other victims of Fred and Rosemary West, 16-year-old Allison Chambers, 16, had come from a troubled upbringing and had actually spent her early years living between her parents, who had separated when she was very young. And she ended up going into different facilities where she would be living.

That's so sad. Yeah. Now, Allison was described as a vulnerable girl from a disturbed background. That's how all the media described her. And when she was 15 and a half years old, she was placed at Jordan's brook. Now, according to Soons, Allison, quote,

frequently withdrew into a fantasy life and she composed romantic poetry and liked to draw pictures of an imaginary farm where she dreamed of living. That's so, so gut-wrenching. Which is just devastating. Just like retreated into that world. I want to be clear again, once again, I'm going to say it before all of these entries

into this series, a lot of trigger warning for a lot of sexual sadism and sexual assaults, murder with sexual assaults. It's really bad. And in this one in particular, we're going to get a little bit into their own children. I'm not tapping into a lot of those details for my own stuff. But I mean, you can, honestly, you can read the book that I gave you, we're gonna link it here, Anne Marie's book. I encourage you to read that to get it right from her because she's the one who lived it. I'm not gonna go into the nitty gritty of everything,

but I am gonna let you know something because they end up murdering another one of their children. So that will be in here. Oh my God. Now, so, so Alison was, sounds like she was just living this, you know, tough life, tough upbringing, and she was just retreating into a fantasy world.

Right. You know, and, and the fact that she had this very specific farm, like imaginary farm that she had, where she just dreamed of it being a reality and she lived there is just gut wrenching. It really is. And what's even worse is Fred and Rosemary West specifically prey on that one aspect of her life.

That makes a lot of sense that they did. But because she would retreat often into her fantasy world and she would write poetry, which honestly is a sign of intelligence and like beauty and, you know... Everything right in the world. A great personality to be around. Kids are usually pretty rough. So she was ruthlessly bullied and mocked at the girls' home.

The other girls would mock her, which I'm like, girls, let's be nice to other girls. You're all going through it. Yeah, exactly. We'll get through together instead of against each other. This left her leaving even more isolated and more lonely. So unable to make friends at school, she did have one friend who was a teenager named Ann, and this teenager lived at 25 Cromwell Street.

Now since Allison was wicked lonely, prone to fantasy, she was easy prey for Fred and Rose, who had a knack of knowing exactly what to say to manipulate girls just like Allison who had gone through what she had gone through. On her various visits to the house, Rose would tell Allison that she could relate. She knew exactly how this this girl felt. She gave her gifts. At one point she gave her a gold colored necklace with her name on it and showed the girl a picture of a farm and told her that she and Fred owned that farm and Allison could live

there once she moved out of Jordanbrook. What the fuck? Now it turned out that that photo was just an image from a realtor's brochure, but they knew it was enough to draw Alison even deeper into their world. And Fred was equally as fucked up and manipulative and his regular self, leaving her, he would lavish her with praise and attention. He would give her a lot of attention, which is what she was like, and positive attention. And she wasn't getting that anywhere else.

And when she would go back to school, she would tell the other girls she'd met an older man who gave her all kinds of gifts and they were in love. Oh no. Now from the moment they'd met her, Fred and Rose had made all kinds of promises to Allison and the things they would give her and do for her when she turned 17 and could leave Jordansbrook.

One day in early August 1979, just days before her 17th birthday, Alison quietly packed all her belongings and ran away from Jordansbrook, presumably to 25 Cromwell Street. She wrote a letter to her mother before she left and she explained that she'd been invited to live with, quote, a very homely family. I look after their five children and do some of their housework. They have a child the same age as me who accepts me as a big sister and we get on great. The family owns flats and I share with the oldest sister." Oh my God, to think that she thought that she was finally going to get this life that

she's wanted for almost 17 years. And that they went out of their way to convince her of that. And to prey on the little hopes and fantasies that she had. They're so fucked up, it's beyond comprehension. It really is. Now, when Alison's body was later exhumed from the garden at 25 Cromwell Street, there was a large purple belt wrapped around her head

and under her jaw. Oh, God. The prosecutor told the jury at Rose's trial, quote, the belt found around her head clamping closed her jaw can only have been placed in position to stop her screaming. Oh, my God. The purpose of such restraint must have been to permit abuse of the type experienced by the others. Oh, it's so dark. Like the others, Fred had kept several of the small bones from Allison's hands and feet.

Now when Allison failed to show up for work the following day at the training school, a missing persons report was filed and it listed Allison as quote, an absconder from care. An investigation was opened, but when Allison's mother told them she had gotten a letter from Allison that said she'd gone to work as a live-in nanny with a lovely family, investigators didn't ask any questions and they closed the case. Now while the victims of Fred and Rose West, like the outside victims of Fred and Rosemary West, they've been the focus of every story rightfully of

this. It's worth keeping in mind at this point that after the murder of Charmaine, they still had four children living at home with them. And sometimes you can forget that just because there's so much other awful shit going on. You can't fathom that there's children here. No, but there are four. As the daughter of Fred and Rena, Anne Marie received the brunt of the horrific physical, emotional, and sexual abuse, but the others were completely aware of it and often bore witness to it and also had to deal with it. And they also had to be witnessed to Rose's sex work or the abuse of other children.

They saw a lot and they experienced a lot themselves. They all went through a lot. Ann Marie's story, I'm warning you right now, is one of the most horrific things I have ever read in my entire life. Hands down, bar, none. You read her book, read it, but I'm telling you right now, I can't explain to you what, it's horrible. It's horrible. And I can't explain to you what it's horrible. It's horrible and I can't believe that she was able to even put pen to paper to talk about it. Like I give her a lot of credit for being able to.

It was like some kind of healing experience. I hope it was. I don't know how you can heal from all of that, but I hope that it was some kind of cathartic experience. Yeah. Like I'm sure it was painful, but I hope some kind of like help came out of it for her. I mean, there was a very big inappropriate focus on like very deviant and very like demonic sexuality in that house. You know what I mean? Like it was, it's not like there was like a,

they were living a different lifestyle, you know what I mean? Than like the mainstream, you know what I mean? Like this was sadistic shit. It's like, this is totally inappropriate, totally beyond the thoughts that you could ever think. And it was incredibly damaging to these children, incredibly damaging. And these are their parents, no matter what, like things, it's just like they will like also in some ways think this is just how parents are.

Well, yeah. You know, it's like they, it's very hard to, for kids to understand that like their situation with their parents is not what everybody else is going through. Yeah, you just assume. They're just, some of it they're looking at like, okay, I just have to deal with this until I leave out. everybody else is going through. Yeah, you just assume. They're just, some of it, they're looking at like, okay, I just have to deal with this until I leave out. Like this is just life. And then like, you know, they manipulated them so hard

that like some of them were like trying to like defend them later, like, but they're their kids. You know what I mean? Like it's one of those things that's like, that's just such a different situation. I can't even fathom it. Yeah. I really can't. No, I really can't.

This show is sponsored by BetterHelp. I feel like this year has already started going by so quickly. And one thing that I am especially proud of in 2024 is that I started going to therapy again. That's a huge accomplishment that I'm proud of of in 2024 is that I started going to therapy again. That's a huge accomplishment that I'm proud of going back. But something I want to accomplish this year is just being a little more positive in general. When life goes fast, it's important to take a moment to celebrate your wins

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Cancel your unwanted subscriptions by going to rocketmoney.com slash morbid. That's rocketmoney.com slash morbid. Rocketmoney.com slash morbid. But their daughter May wrote later, if dad had any ambition at all for any of his daughters, it was simply that we should breed and have at least as many babies as he and mom had done. And like, why? Yeah. So he would have more victims.

Yeah, yeah. He, I mean, they got to make their own victims, essentially. Wow. Yeah. Now, once Anne- Anne Marie was old enough, she had moved out of the house and Fred's eye shifted towards his younger daughters, Heather and May.

He would often make comments about their bodies or joke about, and this is awful, quote, it being a father's right to take his daughter's virginity. Oh my God, that you wanna throw up. The girls thought this was a joke because he was so crude and he was so crass and so lewd and so disgusting all the time. And he would say these disgusting things and they would just be like, Oh, that's just like

whatever. Like he just says this disgusting shit. But eventually they realized he was serious. He was sexually abusing, like he was a horrible fucking predator monster. Yeah. And like when he was saying that he meant it. When they were in their teen years, Fred began treating his daughters basically as he would treat any other girl around him or woman or young woman around him.

Especially when he was a teenager, because remember we said any woman that was near him, he would just grab and grope at them. He would do that with his daughters. Oh my God. Now, May did her best to hide the abuse and the emotional effects from the world. She just tried to retreat into herself. But Heather seemed to have a much harder time with it. Yeah. Obviously, like I don't even know how any of them were functioning.

And by the time she was in her mid teens, Heather had become very withdrawn and very sullen. She never smiled or laughed. She just didn't have joy. How could you? And eventually she started acting out at school. And when she turned 16 years old, she had left school because she had found a job working on a cleaning crew at a holiday camp.

Not a glamorous job, not well-paying, but the location of the camp meant that she would be able to get the fuck away from Fred and Rose. So it was her ticket out. And it would be for a few months. Right. So she was like, get me gone. I don't give a shit what you need me to do. Just get me out of this house.

And it was probably some kind of plan where she was thinking like, I can save up this much money and go on to the next thing. Now, unfortunately, the day before she was about to leave for the camp, the job fell through. No. And she was devastated, devastated. Well, and she must have just been sitting there being like, what the fuck is this life?

And she must have been sitting there before it fell through, being like thinking, fantasizing about this new life she could have away from them. Like you start picturing. Just like Alison with the farm. When you think something's coming, you exactly like Alison with the farm. And we can all relate to the idea of like when you think something's happening and you're

like, oh, I'm so excited for this thing. And then it falls through. It's awful. And it's in most of us only know that on like the most micro of scales. Like I'm just so bummed. Oh, like I get to meet this cool, you know, like I get to meet my idol. Like, you know what I mean? And you're like, oh, I'm so excited. It's going to be so much fun.

And then all of a sudden it falls through and you're like, oh, like that. I pictured myself meeting this part or doing this thing. But then you think of all the weight that came like with this of like, it's my escape from my incredibly of the incredibly abusive, toxic household. The measurable trauma that I've been facing my entire life. It's her ticket to like personal autonomy. Yes, and it's like, like when I read that,

I was like, I feel it in my gut. Yeah. Like the gut punch of that. Oh, I feel so bad. Now the next day, June 19th, 1987, Mae said goodbye to Heather and left for school. When she came home, she expected to find her sister still upset, but Heather was gone. Now, May asked her parents where she went and Fred told her that Heather had received

a call from the camp and the job was back on. So Heather packed up a few things and got the fuck out of there. Now this was supposed to be a positive thing, but Meg said something didn't hit right. Yeah, she could tell. Immediately, these kids, as much as like, you know, they're their parents and they just kind of dealt with this stuff.

They know. They know their parents too. Yeah. They know what their parents are. All of them had their parents' numbers, every single fucking one of them. Well, and they've also seen people come on as like nannies and then just fucking disappear forever.

And they've heard shit. They've heard shit. There's no way they're not hearing screaming, crying, like horrible stuff. They know what their parents are capable of. They've experienced it, they've seen it, they've witnessed it, they've heard it. They've experienced it, they've witnessed it, they've heard it. They've experienced it personally. And they're probably so much more connected than even like a typical sibling duo

because they have that shared experience of trauma. And so May knew immediately something's wrong here. She said her father seemed almost cheerful about sharing the news, but she said, Rose seemed very upset about Heather leaving. That's her daughter. Which Fred explained away as her being just disappointed that Heather, that, you know, like she thought Heather was going to be staying, but now she's not.

So she's sad that she's leaving. Was Rose involved with the sexual abuse of her kids in way of participating or was that just Fred? Um, she definitely, she was involved in, at the very least, like a bystander of letting it happen because like, and again, some of the things that were done to some of these kids and like Anne Marie in particular was out in the open for everybody to see. And it was horrific. I mean, how do you not step in and protect your kid? Because you're a fucking monster.

Rose is a monster. She is an absolute monster right along with Fred. She gets no nothing. I'm just like, how do you not have that motherly instinct after carrying a baby in your room for nine fucking months? I don't get it. And then just to let a man do that and to stand there and do nothing? Like, yeah, I mean, that's your kid.

Because I didn't, I didn't read too far into like how she participated. Yeah. But she certainly is not at the very very least she didn't stop it. And she's certainly not a passive person in any of that. She's very much actively, at least in some way, shape or form. That's so heinous. She's fucking terrible. So the West children had spent, again,

their entire lives being manipulated, lied to and abused by their parents, especially their father. So even though they knew he wasn't telling them the truth about Heather, they knew this was a lie. And it's just like, what can they do? They also knew you don't push him. So we're not going to push him.

Cause then you'll be in the same position. Yeah. And they're like, who knows what's going to happen. Now in the days and weeks after that, Fred and Rose went out of their way to reinforce their story that Heather had simply gone away and would be coming back. She was going to be coming back. Yeah, because like you said, it was only a month's long gig. They would receive phone calls in the night, apparently from some drunken woman that they

claimed was Heather. And then they would get in an argument on the phone and hang up with her. And the children were like, okay, I guess she's all right. And she's going to be home. Like they couldn't figure out. They were playing this twisted game. But after a few months, they became concerned that Heather

was not going to be coming back. And in an attempt to quiet their concerns, Fred and Rose continued the charade that simply Heather had decided not to come home now. She went to this camp and now she wants to stay for longer. And you know, in fact, she's so mad at us now. She went to this camp and now she wants to stay for longer. And you know, in fact, she's so mad at us now. Like she's had enough of this house, apparently. She's like, they decided to shit all over and be like, she's just like, you know, just turned on us, whatever she's turned on us. And now she doesn't want to have any contact with us at

all. Yeah. I wonder why if that was actually the case. May knew this was a lie, but. What was she gonna do? But, and she was like, honestly, all my parents did was lie to me. Right. Like they just lied and manipulated. So she's like, what else is new? I can't say anything.

I don't know what else to say to anybody. Like all the kids were handling it differently. So they all had to retreat in themselves. Now, Heather never came home. Obviously. And May never saw her sister again. And in time, May and her siblings would learn that their sister didn't leave for a job in 1987,

but was in fact killed by their parents. Now, in his interview with police, Fred told investigators that, he's such a fucking asshole. This is their new story. He told investigators that they thought that their daughter was actually a lesbian and was planning to leave with a woman on the night she went missing. So he said, Heather told him and he quotes, if you don't let me fucking go, I'll give all the kids acid and they'll all jump off the church roof and kill

themselves. It seems legit. Seems legit, right? And Fred's claimed that that sent him into a rage and he grabbed her by the neck and began choking her. And he told detectives, I can't even remember what happened, what happened, but the next minute she's blue. That no, incorrect. Yeah. He then said when she was dead, he dismembered Heather's body and buried her remains in the garden.

His daughter dismembered Heather's body and buried her remains in the garden. Heather Kassar-Katz His daughter dismembered his daughter. Heather Kassar-Katz Now, Mae says she never believed that story for a second. Heather Kassar-Katz Also, now I'm just trying to tally it. I'm pretty sure he's killed three of his kids at this point or two because he didn't kill Charmaine. Heather Kassar-Katz But he's killed them surely was pregnant. Heather Kassar-Katz And and and yeah.

Heather Kassar-Katz So the fact that we can't even tally up how many of his own children that he's killed. Yeah, because he's killed several pregnant women. Pregnant with his child. And like we're talking like eight months pregnant. Yeah. Brutally tortured and murdered. In fact, in both cases, he waited. Very long into the pregnancy. Yeah. That's a the pregnancy. Yeah.

That's a whole different pathology. Yeah, that's something that should be studied. That's a, something's happening there. Wow. Yeah. Wow. Now, May never believed this story either. No.

And neither did investigators. No, it doesn't make any sense. Investigators were like, fuck off. Detectives had two theories as to Heather's death, both easily plausible. In the first, they believe Fred attempted to sexually assault his daughter. And when she resisted, he began choking her. This theory was supported by the fact that Heather was buried naked.

Like the other victims, she had no clothing. No clothing was found in the grave. Also like the other victims, there were several bones missing from her hands and feet as well. Really? The second theory is that Heather had become a liability and they feared that she would, or maybe she threatened to tell someone about the abuse that had been occurring in the home

for well over a decade. Right. Now, regardless of what the motive for her murder was, Heather would be the final body buried in the West Garden. And it would be her disappearance that would actually bring an end to their killing spree. Okay. Now, it's unclear why, and this is really wild, there was an eight year gap in the murders between Alice and chambers and Heather.

Really? Eight years. And what they think is it's entirely possible that they killed other women and buried them elsewhere. Yeah. Because they also were frankly running out of room at their own place. Well, yeah, I mean, they ran out of room in the basement and we're now filling the garden.

And I don't know like what the neighbor situation is, like how close they are to other homes. They're pretty close. So it's like, they don't have a ton of space. So I would bet a lot of money that there are other victims around that they will eventually, hopefully find. Now, what is clear though,

is that Heather's murder was definitely different from the other victims as well. Like Anna McFall, it seems that Heather was likely killed in their eyes to solve a problem that they saw, being discovered, they didn't wanna be found out. This was an entirely like one of their sexual sadist, like killing for sexual gratification murders.

Whenever anyone would ask about Heather in the years after this, Fred and Rose would give some variation of the unexpected employment or the lesbian lover story, which typically satisfied whoever was asking, and then the disappearance was just never truly investigated at first. It really is so awful that that was their way of, like, obviously it's not degrading to be a lesbian, I'm not saying that.

But they were treating it like it was. They're like, oh, let's say she's a lesbian, because that's a bad thing. Like, you can tell that's why they're doing it. To be like, Oh, she's just a fucking lesbian. Yeah. They were like, Oh, and he's basically saying she was a lesbian and she was violent. Yeah. And like I had to kill her to save us all. Like I had to get rid of this violent lesbian. And it's like, it's like you're degrading her even in death. Yeah. Like, no. Now, Fred and Rose had gotten away with so many horrific crimes over the years that they probably assumed Heather's murder was just one more girl that no one

was going to miss. Their own child. Shaking my head. And that might have been true had it not been for the courage of one of Fred's sexual assault victims, who eventually came forward with her story and began an investigation that would literally unearth the secrets of 25 Cromwell Street. In the spring of 1992, just a week, a few weeks after the death of Fred's father, a 13 year old girl who lived in the neighborhood divulged to a friend that Fred West had sexually assaulted her, but she didn't want to go to the police. 13 years old. He's a fucking monster.

I hope he wherever he is, I hope he is just living in a cyclic loop. Pervatory. Fucking brutal torture. I really do. That he doesn't enjoy. Yeah, exactly. No, he didn't. I don't think he enjoyed it. I think he enjoyed inflicting. But this girl's friend sat with the information for a few days before eventually going to her mother who in turn informed a local police officer.

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I am about three-quarters of the way through Murder Your Employer, the McMaster's Guide to Homicide, and it is so freaking good. Stop everything you're doing and listen to this title right now. It's literally narrated by Neil Patrick Harris and Simon Vance, and something about Neil Patrick Harris' voice is just so soothing to me. As an Audible member, you can choose one title a month to keep from the entire catalog, including the latest bestsellers and new releases. New members can try Audible free for 30 days. Visit audible.com slash morbid or text morbid to 500 500. That's audible.com slash morbid or text morbid to 500 500 to try audible free for 30 days audible.com slash morbid. Welcome to the small town of Chinook where faith runs deep and secrets run dark. In this new crime thriller, religion and crime collide when this small Montana community

is rocked by a gruesome murder. As the town is whipped into a frenzy, everyone is quick to point their fingers at a drug-addicted teenager. But local deputy Ruth Vogel isn't convinced. She suspects connections to a powerful religious group. Enter federal agent VB Laro, who has been investigating a local church for possible criminal activity. She and Ruth form an unlikely partnership to catch the killer, unearthing secrets that leave Ruth torn between her duty to the law, her

religious convictions, and her very own family. But something more sinister than murder is afoot, and someone's watching Ruth. With an all-star cast led by Emmy Award nominee Santa Layton and Star Wars Kelly Marie Tran, Chinook plunges listeners into the dark underbelly of a small town where the lines between truth and deception are blurred, and even the most devout are not who they seem. Chinook is available to listen to now exclusively with your Wondery Plus subscription. You can subscribe to Wondery Plus in the Wondery app, Apple podcasts, or Spotify. Now the tip about the West's prompted an investigation, which was led by veteran detective Hazel Savage, which is such a cool name.

Love it. Who this investigator, this detective had experience working sex crimes and crimes involving children. So perfect person to get involved in this. At first, the case seemed a little straightforward, you know, a single incident of sexual assault, a horrific crime, but one that they could easily just go forward with.

But the more she dug into the family's background, the scarier and stranger that the story became. But it all started with a story told by one of the West's children. Now, when the complaint against Fred and Rose was initially made, the children were immediately removed from the home and placed in foster care, which I was like, my God,

that should have happened a long time ago. Yeah, for real. While they were there, one of the children told one of the social workers that their father often threatened them with violence, saying, if you ever talked about what went on in the house, they would be killed and buried under the patio, just like their sister, Heather. So he would literally say that to his children, like, I'll fucking kill you and bury you under the patio like

Heather. Oh my God. These poor kids. I can't That your brain can't even like put that together. You will be buried next to your sister, my daughter, whom I killed. Who I killed. Like, yeah, my brain is just all over the place right now. And also to me, that puts a lot more weight on the idea that Heather might have said,

I'm leaving and I'm telling, or they had some weird idea that she was going to and that's why she was killed. Absolutely. I agree with you. Now, Fred would later claim that was just a joke. LOL. A funny dad joke, you know? And he explained that Heather had run off with a female lover.

She was a lesbian, everybody. That's what he keeps trying to claim. But by then, the story had changed so many times and the comments about the patio made everything seem way more suspicious. So in her initial interview, Rose was cagey about Heather's disappearance. And whenever she was asked directly why she hadn't reported her daughter missing, she would answer, I don't know. Or, I don't remember.

She's a... I can't. Like, fuck off. She's an asshole. After repeated questioning, Rose finally said, I can remember now why I didn't pursue Heather. Because things pointed to her being a lesbian. Meanwhile, fucking Rose herself is interested in women too. So like, what is your fucking problem here? That's what it is. Meanwhile, fucking Rose herself is interested in women too.

So like, what is your fucking problem here? That's what it is. It's all this fucked up loop of being of hating themselves. And taking that hate out on other people. Yeah, it's exactly it. Totally putting it out on other people. It's just making me so mad that they're like, they're putting that on her afterwards and acting like it's a bad thing

when Rose very much came on to other women like in. Aggressively. Like such an aggressive manner. And like, I'm just like, and now you're saying like, oh, I didn't report her missing because she was a lesbian. Well, and it's literally a mother saying, I didn't report my child missing

because she was a lesbian. Yeah. Oh, I'm sorry. Do you think that makes you look better? Right? You fucking asshole. Like, fuck you, Rose. And, and sitting there. Oh, both of them. Yeah. Sitting there saying not knowing full well what happened to her for her whole life. Yeah. How she was killed and where she is. Yeah. You wake up every single morning over your daughter's dead body. You fucking pig. True pig. I'm so mad right now. True pigs. Like true fucking hogs. Pig. Just bleh. It's so filthy. It is. That's the thing. It just gets worse and worse. Now throughout the rest of 1992

and most of 1993, investigators continued building their case against Fred. And eventually he was charged with three counts of rape of a minor with Rose being charged as an accomplice. Wow. But they remained free on bail pending the trial. A rapist? A child rapist. A child rapist on three fucking counts? Where are they? What fucking county is this?

Now in the meantime, the Department of Social Services continued their search for Heather West, interviewing the children as they went for more information. The process was very slow going. At first it was yielding very little information, but eventually they had gathered enough testimony from the children because that's also a delicate process. It's a slow process. Yeah. You don't want to re-traumatize them. Right. You're asking them to personally give you a testimony and a narrative of what they've gone through. That's a lot even for grown-ass adults to do. Yeah. Like that's a lot. And you're doing it while their life has just been like, offended in so many ways. But they had eventually gathered enough testimony from the children as well as other witnesses

and they strongly suspected that there was vital evidence of murder in the house on Cromwell Street. So in late February, 1994, Hazel Savage applied for a warrant that would allow investigators to search the West House and Garden for evidence of Heather West and the application was granted. Hazel Savage forever. Hazel fucking Savage. Now with the search warrant secured, it seemed only a matter of digging in the yard, but investigators had no idea where to look.

And the process was further complicated by all the alterations that Fred had made to the house and the extensive stonework in the backyard. Also, when detectives came to the house to present the warrant, Rose and several of the older children did everything they could to stall the investigators, which would buy them enough time for Fred to come home and stop the search, make a big fuss out of everything. Again, very clearly you have to know these are these older children. Remember what they've been abused their whole lives and brainwashed and they're doing what they've been taught to do. Yeah, like, you know, like, absolutely. Right. And they probably did not believe for

a second any of these claims, you know, terrified. They've been scared since they came into the world. They've lived nothing but fear and horror and sadness and loneliness and isolation and pain and just any horrible thing you can think of. They've lived it their entire lives. Yeah. From the two people who are supposed to provide the safest place for them. So I give, I put nothing on them to have the kind of average reactions that any of us would have at all. Now despite their protests, Rose and Fred's work did begin on the West backyard on February

24th. They're like, we have a fucking warrant. So they're like, fuck you. We're doing a bottom. And they began with a hole dug in the back corner and they were gonna just slowly move forward. The work was very slow, but they were very methodical about it. And it was kept getting stalled and interrupted

and fucked up by Fred and Rose because they kept interfering and arguing with investigators whenever they could. Like they just kept trying to fuck it up. I was like, okay, cool. Why don't you go sit in jail then and await your fucking sentencing for your fucking thing that you're on bail for right now. You're, okay, cool. Why don't you go sit in jail then and await your fucking sentencing for your fucking thing

that you're on bail for. You're interfering with an investigation. Yeah. You should be arrested. Go sit in a fucking jail cell. But after a few days, it did seem to have dawned on Fred that he wasn't going to be able to stop this search and that they were going to discover a lot. And he was like, they're also going to move into the house.

They have a warrant for the house as well. So they're going into that basement and they're going to find that. So given that, it probably seemed no use in keeping up the charades. So Fred went to detective Savage and told her they may as well bring them in and they hadn't found anything yet. And he was like, you know what? You might as well. I mean, they were going to as they led Fred from the house.

He walked up to Hazel Savage and said, you might as well bring me in. I mean, they were going to. As they led Fred from the house, now that he walked up to Hazel Savage and said, you might as well bring me in because you're gonna find shit. And she was like, awesome. They led him from the house to the police car and he made a large public spectacle protesting, screaming and being like, I didn't kill her. Like acting like he didn't just walk up to somebody

and say, you might as well bring me in because there's going to be a ton of stuff here. And acting like it's not going to come out very soon when they're done with this whole excavation process, that there are however many numerous bodies outside. And then when they move inside, however many bodies are inside. That the basement is literally filled. The point that you ran out of room. I don't really know what you're doing here because all of this is coming to light within weeks.

Well, also they got him in the car, closed the door, and he immediately confessed to murdering Heather. Yeah, so there you go. So he all the way to the car, I didn't kill her. Oh, dare you, I didn't kill her, gets in the car. And he's like, I did, I killed her. Can you imagine being involved in that? And then he literally looked at Savage and he said,

Detective Savage, you're digging in the wrong place. What a pompous asshole. Like what a fucking asshole. And also like, what the fuck is wrong with you? Now it's possible that Fred thought he could prevent the discovery of the other bodies, if he confessed to the murder of Heather and pointed detectives away from the other graves.

That's true. He thought maybe they'll stop after they get Heather. Yeah, totally. But by then the stories had changed so many times and there was so much circumstantial evidence that detective Savage and the others definitely thought that Fred wasn't telling the whole truth. So they were not gonna stop at that.

And at this point, they have no idea. What's in any way. What is in store for that. They are looking for Heather. So that's why he thought they'll stop after that. How could they ever know that I have 12 other bodies in this house? You know, it's like, dude, what if they don't even find Heather first and they find someone else?

Well, he was trying to lead them right to Heather so that they would stop. Like, how do you even remember? Now whatever Fred's motive, his plan didn't work. Investigators continue digging in the backyard, obviously, because if you can kill your own child, you are capable of a lot, you fucking idiot. Obviously. Also imagine living next door to this and being like, oh my god. That was there the entire time. How many? 12 bodies, 13 bodies.

And thinking like, I wave to all my neighbors constantly. I'm like, hey, hey, hey. Being like, I just wave to that man every fucking morning. As he walked out and stood on top of his child. Literally. And countless other bodies. And dismembered all these people too. Like, their neighbors are probably sitting there being like, in that house at night sometimes when a light was on, they were sawing apart a body.

Yeah. Sometimes their own child. Right. And I was just going to sleep. It would be so hard to stay, like your house isn't even where the horrors happened. I feel like I would have such a hard time staying in my own house after that. I would have trouble staying in that neighborhood. And I think there was a lot of people that had a lot of, that was a big source of just

really bad vibes and really bad stuff. Like after this, like people were horrified that it was standing. They were, I mean, looking at that house afterwards, I can't imagine. Just knowing the horrors that happened there. It's so dark, dark isn't even the word for it.

Because it's not just murder, it's sexual assault, it's rape, it's child abuse, it's child sexual assault. I mean, the things that were found in that house are beyond comprehension. And just the energy surrounding the entire place must have just been abysmal. But the investigators kept digging up the backyard and within a week they discovered not one, but two sets of remains in the West backyard. And a day later, a third was discovered. And the third set of remains were identified as Heather West.

So they didn't even find her first. Now on February 27th, 1994, Fred and Rose West were arrested for murder. When the discovery in the garden was announced to the press, the police and missing persons bureau was flooded with calls from around the country, all with people with loved ones who'd gone missing. And they were like, potentially, are they in that backyard? I have to make that call. Is my loved one in that garden? Yeah, I can't even think of it.

How do you? Bureau Director Christopher Dre told the press, we have been inundated with calls. We have 19 lines. And during yesterday, they were engaged constantly. As the search kept going, local residents watched in absolute horror these neighbors as one body after another was taken from this home. They just watched being like, what the fuck? And at the same time, Stephen and one of the other siblings, West siblings, began speaking to reporters to try to defend their parents. And in the interview with the Gloucester Echo, Stephen repeated the story about Heather running off and insisted she was still alive.

And he said, we would not live here if we thought they had murdered her. No, of course you wouldn't. That tells you the depth of how they're being manipulated. Abused they were. Like they have been taught to be this way. And they're probably just desperate to think to themselves, like, I would never have been in this house if I knew she was back there. If I knew that they killed my sister. But as the days went on, it was getting harder

to defend Fred and Rose. And by the end of the first week of March, the ninth body had been removed from the West house and investigators, and this was within only a couple of weeks, and investigators expected to find more in the basement. So that was just the backyard, nine bodies in the yard. By that point, Fred had been formally charged with the murder of Heather and the murder of former lodger, Shirley Ann Robinson, but detectives fully expected that there were gonna be way more charges to come.

The growing number of bodies and the very slow identification process led to a great deal of speculation, especially around the disappearance of Mary Bastholme many years earlier. Mary's brother Peter said, and this is so sad, he said, quote, in some ways, it would be a relief if police identify her as it would stop the wandering and we would be able to hold a funeral for her. Like to have to think like that's, I guess, our best case scenario at this point. Like, that's so awful. By mid March, all the bodies had been removed from the house, but there was still a lot

of work to be done to identify all of them. In the meantime, Fred must have realized that things were looking pretty bad because he started speaking to investigators. Wow. Mistakenly believing that he could explain away the 12 dead bodies discovered in his house. Huh. But Fred's statements would eventually prove pretty useful in the identification process.

Luckily, like through no, he didn't mean to, it just happened. But he was really stupid. He was not intelligent and he was really a bad liar, it just happened. But he was really stupid. He was not intelligent. And he was really a bad liar, to be honest. Like he was able to lie to vulnerable people. But when somebody's trying to detect one and looking for it, he's pretty bad at it. So his interviews were really vague.

They were sometimes confusing, very frustrating interviews. He's also not dealing with younger people. Exactly. Younger people who have already been through things and are vulnerable and will believe a lot more because they've been through a lot more. These are seasoned investigative adults. Now by the end of March, Fred had been charged with nine murders. And by the end of June, when the victims had finally been identified, he was formally charged with 11 counts of first degree murder. Now, while Fred kept talking

to investigators about the women found in the house, Rose had also started talking to detectives. And at that point, interviews with the West's extended family and several of the children revealed that she was not a fucking unfortunate victim. Yeah, sure. She was trying to make herself that. Yeah. The extended family and fucking unfortunate victim. Yeah, sure. She was trying to make herself that. Yeah. The extended family and all the children were like, ah, no, she was both of them. Rose was a very willing participant in the violence.

And sometimes she was the one that initiated it. Yeah, she was just as bad. Now sensing that she was soon going to be under investigation herself, Rose turned on Fred. Wow. Which tells you exactly turned on Fred. Wow. Which tells you exactly who she is. Wow. And started giving investigators any information that they asked for in hope that she might

be spared. This really is so akin to Myra. It really is. Immediately turned. Like wow. Which you're like, because you're not fucking human. You don't have human emotions. No, you don't love.

You don't love each other. That's not what that is. You don't know what love is. You're out for number one. And Rose's betrayal created further fractures in the family. As Stephen responded, the son Stephen responded to her betrayal by going to a reporter from the news of the world and giving an exclusive interview about what he experienced and what he saw. And soon, my quiet life will never be the same. You can listen to Chinook exclusively on Wondery+.

Join Wondery+, in the Wondery app, Apple podcasts, or Spotify podcasts. On June 30th, Fred and Rose West appeared before a judge in Gloucester Magistrates Court, the first time they'd seen each other since Fred's arrest in February. They were jointly charged with nine counts of first degree murder, among other things. Why only nine if they found more bodies? I think they were still trying to identify people. They were jointly charged with nine counts

of first degree murder among various other things. And Fred was charged with the additional murders of Rena and Charmaine. Oh, okay. Because he did those presumably on his own. Well, actually, Rose killed Charmaine, right? That's what we think, but... But he ended up... I think he ended up...

I mean, not that I'm like, oh no, sure. I shouldn't have charged for that. I'm just like, wait a second. I think it was just going off of evidence. I'm just like, wait a second. I think it was just going off of evidence. But as the, and also remember he was the one who disposed of Charmaine's body and dismembered her. Yes.

So I don't know what the lead up, and again, we don't know the details of the lead up to that. We presume that Rose was the one to kill her rage, killed that little girl. Now as the summer turned to fall, it must have occurred to Fred that things were really bad for him at this point. No matter what he told investigators

about supposedly consensual sexual encounters in relationships. Why are they all dead in your garden, dude? Accidents. He kept saying they were all, whoops. You're so unfortunate. Yeah, it's wild. But no matter what he was saying,

he'd left a trail of bodies in three locations and no lies or excuses were gonna be enough to spare him. The absolute harshest penalties available. Like he wasn't getting out of it. Like what are you even thinking at that point? Yeah, now it was, it hit him. I mean, he knew, there, there's no getting out. I'm going to get the worst.

Whatever they can give me, I'm going to get it. So on the afternoon of January 1st, 1995, just before 1pm, a prison officer at Winson Green Jail in Birmingham went to check on Fred and found him hanging from a noose that he'd fashioned from his own shirt. That makes me so angry. That motherfucker should have been on 24-7 surveillance before he got to do anything. Well, so medical personnel tried for 30 minutes to revive him,

but their efforts were useless. He was dead. But Fred had been on suicide watch since the hearing in July. But in December, those restrictions had been lifted. He was no longer deemed high risk. So he had been on suicide watch for months. And then the second he got off of it. The second it was lifted. In fact, the asshole seemed to be in high spirits

the night before his death. He played pool, he was celebrating the new year with the other inmates. He was celebrating his last fucking day on earth. One of the guards told reporters, he seemed completely normal. It was just like any other day. Wow.

Now, this is the only thing that's good, I guess, is that the news of Fred's death was met with resounding cheers from nearly everyone who'd been affected by his murders. So that is good. So as long as they're looking at us, that's good enough for me. Alison Chambers' mother, Joan Owen, said, this is the best news I've heard for a long time.

After all the evil things he did, that must be the only good thing he ever did. Anyone who can do what he did and then walk around and act as if nothing happened is truly evil. Absolutely. Anne-Marie's husband, Chris Davis, was very enthusiastic about the news, calling Fred's suicide a great result and saying, he will rot in hell for what he did. He deserves everything that's waiting for him. He sure does.

And I say, agreed. Hear, hear. Chin, chin. Hear, hear. Now, although Fred's suicide meant that he was not going to be legally held accountable for the crimes he committed. Nearly everyone seemed to take the news well, including those who worked in the justice system to be honest.

Well, and if you think about it, it's like he's able to sit there in fucking jail and play pool and shoot the shit with other inmates. It's like he shouldn't have that ability. Now we can rot in the ground. So you know what? Rot and hail. Yeah, rot and hail. Now the massive investigation had taken a huge financial toll on, I always say this

wrong and I apologize. I'm going to try to say it right. Gloucestershire. I think that's how they go. Gloucestershire justice system. I hope I said that right for you guys. And was an immense strain on the municipality's resources. I mean, they were struggling through this.

So if nothing else, it saved everyone a lot of time, money and heartache. Well, that's good. Everyone involved seems... To which I say, see ya. Yeah, honestly, everybody involved seems fine with it. So that's all I'll take. At first I was like, come on. Well, and that's honestly, I see why you said that because there is a part of it that you're

like, fuck. He didn't face the music. Well, and also his death presented a big problem for the Crown Prosecution Service because they were intending to prosecute Rose. With Fred unable to corroborate any of the statements he'd made regarding her participation in the murders, they weren't admissible in court anymore, his statements. And they would have to rely on Rose's statements alone. So that's not good.

So that sucks. Now despite pressure to drop the charges against Rose, which would save obviously a lot of time and money, Detective Superintendent John Bennett, who was in charge of the case, reassured the families that the case against Rose was going forward. That's a real one right there. He said, whilst finance must always be a consideration with any investigation or inquiry, it is always secondary to the result of any of the inquiries

we have undertaken. We are totally committed to the care of the victims' families with this case. That's incredible. Now, Rose's trial began October 3, 1995, at Winchester Crown Court in Hampshire before Justice Charles Mantell. Hampshire before Justice Charles Mantell. I like Justice Charles Mantell.

You have to wonder where that other justice was that like threw out the first sexual assault case. I'm like, where are you, buddy? Because let's smack him in the face a little bit. But I'm glad we have a justice now that we like here. He's good. Now arguing for the crown was prosecutor Brian Levison while Rose's defense team was led by Richard Ferguson.

In the months leading up to the trial, the defense made a lot of attempts to get it thrown out completely. Wow. Which I'm like, how do you fucking sleep at night? I'm sorry. I know we've gone through this and I know I'll get a ton of messages that are like, that's our job. I know that.

I realize that. This one though, you're like. This one I don't understand. I know it's their job. I get that. Mama's not innocent though. But like, I personally don't, I could never. Mama's not innocent and I'm sorry, but y'all don't believe that she is. But they were trying to get it thrown out on the logical idea that given the intense

and lurid press coverage since the arrest, there was no way that Rose was going to get a fair trial. Well, I don't care. But the judge said, hmm, disagree. And the case was allowed to proceed, which I love that the judge was like, yeah, that no, I don't think so. I think it's good. Maybe don't be involved in murdering that many people and you'll find a fair trial. Oh, you won't actually have to have a trial.

Yeah, because you saw that. Now in his opening statement to the jury, Justice Mantell reminded them that they were expected to leave behind all preconceptions, prejudice and sentiment that they had about the defendant and base their decisions entirely on the case as it was presented in court. Yeah, so he did his due diligence. He says, enter upon your very heavy responsibility in a clear cut way unaffected by anything you may have read about this case, which certainly has its sensational aspects.

You imagine sitting on this jury? No. With his statement out of the way, the clerk read the charges against Rose, and the most significant of those charges were the 10 counts of first degree murder for the deaths of, because she was eventually charged with Charmaine.

Charmaine West, Linda Goff, Carol Cooper, Lucy Partington, Therese Seigenthaler, Shirley Hubbard, Juanita Mott, Shirley Ann Robinson, Allison Chambers, and Heather West. Now, you hear all the names. It's like horrifying. It is. And these are all young girls who had their whole lives ahead of them. In his opening statement, Brian Levison laid out the facts for the jury in grisly detail, emphasizing the fact that Rose had been a very enthusiastic and active participant in

the brutally violent sexual torture and murder of at least 10 women. He said, the picture which I shall describe revealed by the evidence and the material, including photographs you will see, is in places horrific and harrowing. I do not do this to shock or provoke sympathy, but so that you have an entire picture against which to decide the case." Now, Levison began his story with the murder of Heather West,

and then he worked backwards. He provided details on all the other nine women Rose was accused of killing. And he said, "'For the rest, their last moments on earth were as objects of the sexual depravity of this woman and her husband. Which I think is a perfect way of describing it. And it is so bone chilling and so fucking gut wrenching, but it's the truth.

And it paints the picture of like, look at this fucking monster sitting before you. She treated them as objects. And she very much did. I mean, the fact that they covered their faces the way they did. And she was part of everything. One after another, the expert witnesses told the evidence collected in the West Home. This included several homemade torture devices and sexual props and also a variety of pornographic materials that included the abuse of children and animals.

Oh my God. You can't think of something worse than them. No, and it's like every gross, horrific, nasty thing that exists. They were in it. That was their thing. Also, forensic experts and several pathologists were called to the stand. All of them did their best to explain the evidence discovered on the bodies exhumed from the graves at both the West Homes and the field where Anne McFall and Rena West

were buried. Now arguing in Rose's defense, Richard Ferguson claims Rose was innocent and was as much a victim of Fred as anyone else. Please. He said he abused her as he abused everyone else in his evil life. And he said it is because of him that she is before the court. No, it's not. Testifying in her own defense. Girl, bye.

Rose told the jury about her difficult upbringing and her own experiences with sexual violence that had led her to trust a man like Fred West. She said, he promised me the world, he promised me everything because I was so young, I fell for his lies. He promised to love and was so young, I fell for his lies. He promised to love and care for me and I fell for it. Okay, girl, sure. That's how you entered into this with Fred. Exactly.

I'll give you that. Yup. But you became- What the fuck are you doing now bearing another child and murdering it? Yeah. What the fuck are you doing now? Exactly. And what are you doing in a house with child abuse images and animal abuse images, torture

devices that you made together? Your daughter in the backyard. Explain that because you had a tough upbringing. Like plenty of people have a tough upbringing. People in the courtroom, somebody raised their hand. Did you have a tough upbringing? Exactly. Did you do this?

Like shut the fuck up, Rose. No, that's absolutely ridiculous. Shut the fuck up. To claim a tough upbringing. She was in tears. She cried. Oh, I bet she was. And if it scored any points with the jury, we don't know because she then had a very

combative attitude under cross-examination by the prosecutor and that didn't help her at all. And I'm sure that's when they saw the real Rose. That's when she came out for real. Rose had portrayed herself as a scapegoat for Fred's crimes saying, I'm the one now in the spotlight. Fred Russ is dead and I've got to be made responsible for what he has done. Bitch, please.

Levison though, said, fuck off, Rose. He didn't hesitate. He fired right back saying, it's not everyone dumping everything on you. It's you dumping everything on Fred. You fully participated in each and every murder, didn't you? Yep. And it's possible that a 1995 jury could have been sympathetic to the argument put forth

by the defense. Absolutely. Of course. But the problem was there was like no evidence or testimony to back up any of the claims she had of being an innocent victim. Right. Fred and Rose had developed very few social relationships outside of themselves, at least very few that weren't built on sexual exploitation. So there was almost no one who

would testify on her behalf. Like no one. Anybody who testified was testifying against her. There was no one that was going to sit up there and say she was anything but a fucking monster. And also in the years since the arrests were first made, the family had fractured apart even more with nearly everyone abandoning Fred and Rose. Well, because at that point, it's like everything's coming to light. And they're probably at this point processing their own traumas now that they have time to be away from their parents, the monsters. And the result of her very tearful performance was pretty ineffective.

So she really wasted her time. You didn't give a fuck for all those girls crying. In fact, you couldn't even see it. You wrapped their head in plastic tape while they cried underneath that. So fuck you. So fuck you, Rose. But further complicating matters was the multiple witnesses and living victims who testified that they had been sexually assaulted and abused by both Fred and Rose at their home on Cromwell Street. So she wasn't going to get, I don't

know what she, good try. That's the thing. They're still living people that you've affected. That are going to come out and say, fuck you, you were part of the whole thing. Exactly. Good. When Levison confronted Rose with the violent sexual assault on Caroline Owens in 1972, Rose responded by saying, are you ready for this? No. Her response to this? No. It was a one off. It was the one mistake I made in my life. I regret it now. The one mistake. You killed an eight year old. It was a one

off. You killed a fucking eight year old. You sat by and watched your fucking husband kill your daughter. You sat by and you fucking participated in how many other murders and you want to sit there and call it a one off. It was this woman's violent and brutal and horrific and traumatizing sexual assaults and torture was a one off. It's one mistake I made. A mistake is like, oh fuck, I just got in like a fender bender, oopsie.

A mistake is oops, I put someone on an email I shouldn't have. That's a mistake, oops. My bad. This? The fact that her mind works that way, that she's like, it was a one off. Like, why are you even bringing that up?

A one, to call that a one off. Nobody else's one mistake in their life is violently torturing and sexually assaulting a woman. No, one. To call that a one-off. Nobody else's one mistake in their life is violently torturing and sexually assaulting a woman. No, sure is not. That's not what anybody can describe as a one-off, oops, a mistake. No, no, no, no, no, no, no. But, and the thing was, it wasn't a one-off. No. The jury had just heard testimony from a number of other young women who told the court about their assault by Fred and Rose West. It was never just Fred. None of these women were getting up there saying, oh yeah, and Rose was just around the house or something. No, Rose actively participated. She was in the room doing

the same things. Now in his closing statement, Richard Ferguson, the defense- Shut up. reminded the jury that they should find his client not guilty. No, I... That didn't mean the murders, like they said, if you find my client not guilty, that doesn't mean the murders go unpunished. He said, Frederick West provided his own solution. His death has ensured that the relatives of the victims need not worry that their deaths have gone unpunished. So that's a weight that's been lifted from your shoulders. If that woman didn't sit in fucking prison, those families would have been absolutely outraged.

So this man, this man stood up there and said she didn't do anything and then said, Fred Rose took care of everybody. Why are you being such bitches about it? He literally sat there and was like, what? He killed himself. Move on. He got punished. Let's exactly what he's literally was like, he killed himself. He can't hurt you anymore. Why are we here?

That's literally what he's saying here is like, what? You don't have to worry anymore. Oh, I don't have to worry? How about all these women? Half of the problem is sitting up here and you're telling me that she could walk. How about all these women that are sitting here? Oh yeah. Telling me their experiences.

Also, what if she were to meet somebody as equally depraved? Exactly. You're going to tell me that's not going to happen again? She'll go find it. She's fucking has a type clearly. Well, and as he had done, as he had done through most of the trial, he used his closing arguments to put all of the responsibility on Fred and reminded the jury that the case was almost entirely circumstantial. And then he warned them not to get caught up in the details about Fred and Rose's quote

unquote unconventional sex life. I was like, you, sir, unconventional, honestly, my antenna is up on you. If that's what you call this, like I'd be like, somebody needs to go search his fucking hard drive. What's going on there? Unconventional sex life is what you're calling this That man practice like I know you got a job. I know you got a job to do Wow, you you use the phrase

Unconventional so you could have omitted that one He practiced that in his closing arguments before standing up there in front of everybody You could have omitted that. Somebody probably signed off on that and was like, yeah, good call. Yeah, that's fine. What the actual motherfucking fuck. Blew my mind. Unconventional.

In the end, the jury was thankfully pretty unmoved by Ferguson's argument, thankfully. Yeah, I mean, you never know how something's going to go, but like in this, I mean. You're like, come on, my guy. And on November 22nd, 1995, Rose West was found guilty of all 10 murders with the judge-passing sentence the very same day. Good. And Judge Mantell said, the sentence is one of life in prison. If any attention is paid to what I think, you will never be released.

And I was like, let's go. Yeah, honestly, judgment tell impose the maximum penalty allowed by the law sentencing her to at least 25 years. But in 1997, Home Secretary Jack Straw, citing the brutality of the case because it is quite clearly above and beyond most cases. 100%. He imposed a whole life tariff, meaning Rose would spend the rest of her life in prison.

I've never even heard of that. Well, this was only the second time the sentence had been imposed on a woman in UK history. Wow. And it's because it's so brutal. They were like, you can never leave. We can never let you out. That's crazy. I want to look up the first person who got it. I know I didn't, I didn't look it up. I should have, but yeah, if you will look it up. Now,

Rose maintains her innocence. Get so fucking fucked into the sun, Rose. Truly. Fuck off. But since her failed bid at an appeal in 1996, the year that Ash came into this world, she's declined to pursue any further appeals because one, she knows she's guilty as fuck and two, she knows she's not getting out. Interesting actually.

Myra Hindley ended up getting one. Oh, I wondered if it was Myra. She's not the only one. I wondered if it was Myra. There's Myra and then there's Joanna Dennehy. Oh, okay. I'm not sure. I wondered if Myra was then there's Joanna Dennehy. Oh, okay. I'm not sure.

I wondered if Myra was gonna be in there. So Fred and Rose West are among clearly the most prolific and shocking and horrific and brutal and sadistic serial killers in UK history. Definitely. And their story and those of their victims honestly remains as horrifying and appalling today as it did when they were first arrested. And that's some 30 years ago. But while Rose has been in prison since her sentencing, the story has continued to evolve. In 1996,

Anne Marie Davis, the West's oldest daughter, alleged that her uncle John West had sexually assaulted her more than 300 times between 1975 and 1980. Oh no. And that's her uncle. According to Anne Marie, when she complained to Rose about the abuse, her mother laughed and told her, don't be stupid. Don't be stupid about what?

John West was arrested and was facing a trial himself when he hanged himself in his garage in November, 1996. What? Yeah, same fate. Wow. Now two years later in the spring of 1998, Fred's cousin, William Hill, was arrested and charged with sexually assaulting four young girls

in his home in Muchmarkel in 1976. He was only 24 years old at the time. Oh my God, what happened to this family? This family just has like disgusting shit running deep. He was questioned at the time and denied any involvement, but he wasn't arrested until 1997 when more victims came forward. Oh no, the fact that there are more people. So they are like this is a pathology throughout this family.

It is. And while there's no question that Fred and Rose killed the 12 victims referenced in the court documents, investigators do believe there's more victims. Oh, absolutely. Including Mary Bastolm. And efforts to recover their bodies have been ongoing as recently as 2021. Wow. And recently investigators in Gloucester have been digging at several sites around

the city where Fred was known to have visited, worked, hung out, anything. But as of now, they have yet to find any additional victims. You really, I mean, you hope that like there aren't any additional victims, but I feel like logic tells you that he didn't go that long. Like these, these year periods and even like at one point there was an eight year period, I just don buy that's the thing with how sick and twisted they were that they didn't yeah I think you don't want there to be additional victims obviously But you also if there are missing persons that are victims of them you want them to be found and identified Yes, exactly

It really is such a double-edged sword. Yeah, it just doesn't make sense that they're going these long periods of time, but you know. I mean, it happens. Yeah, it's strange. I just feel like because of their pathology. Yeah, they seem like frenzied. Frenzied. Very frenzied and very.

It was almost like instinct to them. Yeah, it was like a knee jerk kind of thing. Yep, absolutely. Yeah, it just seems like they wouldn't have taken that time, but who knows? Well, I'm glad that we got through the whole thing and that we were able to, I feel like you did a really good job of like telling each victim's story. And like, I feel like, like I've said, I've heard this case covered before, but I don't think I heard as much

detail about each girl. Thank you. And honestly, Dave is a absolute, I'm going to canonize him, I think. He's a saint for helping me with this because he was just as like elbow deep as I was. I think we're both just like, okay, bye. And he was so good at that. And you guys, if you're looking, if you do want to read Anne Marie West's book is out of the shadows, we'll link it in the show notes. And it's harrowing. Truly harrowing. Sounds like she went through so much more than any of us could ever even imagine. Yeah,

it's truly unbelievable. All right. Well, you promised to do something spooky-ooky or like, oh yeah, I'm taking a paranormal, like a castle. We got something spooky coming from you next. Yeah. And I think we'll have a listener tale in between this and the next episode. So that will be a nice little palette cleanser for everyone. A little bit of a palette cleanser. And in the meantime, we hope you keep listening.

And we hope you keep it weird. You know, I'm not going to tell you not to keep it this weird because that would be so silly of me to say because I know you won't keep it this way. Nope. Bye. Bye. I'm sorry. If you like Morbid, you can listen early and ad-free right now by joining Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts. Prime members can listen ad-free on Amazon Music. Before you go, tell us about yourself by filling out a short survey at wondery.com slash survey. In the 1980s, Frank Farian was riding high as a successful German music producer, but

he was bored. German pop was formulaic, dull, and oh-so-white. But Frank had bigger dreams, American dreams. He wanted to create the kind of music that would rival larger-than-life artists like Michael Jackson or Run DMC. So he assembled a hip-hop duo, two once-in-a-lifetime talents who were charismatic, full of sex appeal, and phenomenal dancers. The only problem? One very important element was missing, but Frank New just had to fix that. Wondery's new podcast, Blame It on the Fame, dives into one of pop music's greatest controversies. Milli Vanilli set the world on fire, but when their adoring fans learned about the infamous lip syncing, their downfall was swift and brutal.

With exclusive interviews from frontman Fab Morvin and his producers Frank Farian and Ingrid Seigeth, this podcast takes a fresh look at the exploitation of two young black artists. Follow Blame It on the Fame on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts. You can listen to Blame It on the Fame early and ad-free right now by joining Wondery Plus.