Morbid - Episode 602: The Strange Death of Cindy James (Part 2)

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Starting point is 00:01:10 Hey, weirdos. I'm Alaina. I'm Ash. This is Morbid. This is motherfucking Mor, bitch! Just kidding. Whoa! And that's Mikey's big burp. I like how that was just like, wha-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a-a We're feeling some type of way. Things are loosey goosey today. We're at my house. The loosiest and the gooseiest. I couldn't come up with a response quick enough. You just stared at me blankly and I was like, oh, she gone.

Starting point is 00:01:53 It's early. My coffee hasn't hit yet. I tried to go to yoga this morning. I couldn't. It was a whole thing. You forgot her, Matt. Halfway there and I fucking realized it. I was like, are you joking me? Are you joking me? I said are you joking me, mate? True. Yeah. What's up, dog? What's up, dog? You're almost riding a book high. I am almost riding a book high. It's so close. By the time this comes out, I think it'll be like two days ago that it came out. So in the future, this is awesome. I'm so excited for you now and in the future. I'm so excited.

Starting point is 00:02:25 I'm excited for you guys to read The Butcher Game and people have been grabbing The Butcher and the Wren recently a lot, like to start the series, which is so fucking awesome. Well, you have to guys. Like if you have to, if you didn't read The Butcher and the Wren, I would read that before you read The Butcher Game.

Starting point is 00:02:43 Yeah, for sure. It's gonna set you all up, it's all chronological. Yeah. A lot of backstory, a lot of, a lot of shockers, you know, but the butcher game is longer. She, she thicker. Yeah. She, I think she's more brutal personally.

Starting point is 00:02:58 She 100% is. There's no doubt in my mind. I don't think there's any doubt there. Um, but yeah, you can still go get her. Somebody go get her. Go get her. She's selling like a best seller. You won't be disappointed, I think. I hope, I pray. You won't. I loved it. I liked it better than Butcher in the Ren and I loved Butcher in the Ren. I loved that. I also have seen people who got the ARC advanced reader copies reviewing it. And I've seen

Starting point is 00:03:25 like so many great reviews. Everybody who's reviewed it has been so sweet and so kind. One girl, she posted a picture. We should shout her out. Book talkers and like bookstagrammers. I like bookstagrammers. Always make the prettiest like displays of a book. Yes. And they have a way of making me want to read any book in a space.

Starting point is 00:03:47 It's like they always make it look gorgeous. This one creator on Instagram, Michelle reads thrillers. Yes, I was just, I just saw that. The way that she set the book up to take the picture of it, I was like, okay. Oh, it's beautiful. They're all like, they're amazing that way. Yeah, it was gorgeous. I was impressed. I loved it. I can barely take a good nail picture in my fucking car. So I can't take any good photos of things. Sorry guys, I had a cat hair in my eye.

Starting point is 00:04:14 I have so many cats. All the cats. And I love them. I also love those cats. Yeah. Franklin and I have become best friends. So we've always been best friends, but I feel like we really solidified our relationship.

Starting point is 00:04:26 The other day, yeah. He crawled on my lap and he snuggled into me and I almost passed away. Because I like cats, like I like cats just fine. You're an animal person. I just love animals. Yeah, but like cats were never my favorite. Yeah, no.

Starting point is 00:04:39 Like it just wasn't my thing for a long time, but then I met your cats. Cats were never my favorite. And I was like, oh bitch, these cats are cool. That's the thing. I feel like cats like morph to their owner. And I like to personally think that I'm like wicked cool. So my cats are like wicked cool. Is it still in there?

Starting point is 00:05:01 Well, I'm glad you got that cat hair. Hello. I'm glad you got that cat hair out of your eye. I was going to say cat and then eye, so it just went kai. It's still in there, but by the end of this, I'm sure it'll make its way out. I don't see anything in there. I wonder if you got glitter in there because your face is a little bit glittery. Did you get highlighter in your eye?

Starting point is 00:05:25 I don't think I got highlighter. All right. Let's get into this. So let's go. We got part two of the strange, very mysterious death of Cindy James. Very strange case so far. Super strange. It's only going to get stranger to be honest.

Starting point is 00:05:39 Oh boy. Yeah. So at the end of part one, Detective Bowyer Smith got involved in Cindy's case, which was really starting to ramp up. He, in the past, had worked closely with Pat McBride, who remember he was like the responding officer. Cindy started seeing him. Detective Bowyer Smith worked closely with him, like I said, and trusted him. So he wanted to trust what Cindy was saying. But something in his gut was telling him that there was just something was off about her story. Something was saying. But something in his gut was telling him that something was off about her

Starting point is 00:06:06 story, something was missing, his gut just didn't feel right about it. So on a hunch, he ended up asking her to take a polygraph exam. Unfortunately, the results did literally nothing to alleviate his suspicions whatsoever. Her test showed signs of deception. But instead of confronting her with the results like right off the bat, he asked her if she'd be willing to submit to another exam. And again, the results indicated that she was being dishonest, being deceptive. So now he's convinced that he caught her in a lie. hot dog and a trench coat. But like, it's, it is interesting when somebody, because you can, it's, I don't know, it's like, it really goes both ways. Like, I feel like polygraphs are so

Starting point is 00:06:50 difficult to have any kind of stance on. Yeah, because I know that like, if you, like, if you're nervous, that can show a deception. You hook me up to a polygraph right now, I'm gonna be my anxiety level is going to be at a billion just because of the nature of being hooked up to something that can determine your physiological responses to questions. I feel like my brain would be like, you're lying. You're lying, even if I was telling the truth. That's the thing. It's like when you go through TSA at the airport and you don't have a weapon on you or like contraband of any kind, but every time I go through, I'm like, what if I have a gun?

Starting point is 00:07:29 And I don't. I don't. I know I don't. What if I accidentally put a gun that I don't have in my carry-on? Oh my God, what if I put a machete that I don't have in my suitcase? My God. That's crazy. So your brain will just make you go like, oh, fuck. Oh my God, what if I put a machete that I don't have in my suitcase? And it's like that's- So your brain will just make you go like, oh, fuck. That makes sense that you do that.

Starting point is 00:07:52 I think, oh, did I pack a full-size product that they're going to throw out? Literally, I'm worried I bought, I brought a full bomb with me. I'm just like, did I bring that new hairspray that I got and they're going to get rid of it and I'm going to be sad? Yeah. See that's, and it happens all the, like your brain can trick you in insane ways. So I feel like in a polygraph exam, you hook me up to that shit. I'm going to be like, have I lied about everything that I've ever known in my life? Like I feel like, is anything real? Is my name even Ash? They'd be like, is your name Elena? I'd be like, I honestly don't know. My mom says. I can't be sure.

Starting point is 00:08:28 But who's she to say? I don't know. I was there, but I don't remember. Well, Cindy, so Detective Bowersmith confronts Cindy with the results. Because of course it means something. Yeah, I mean, of course. Like we laugh about that, but but it is interesting when you have other suspicions. Especially having two deceptive, is that a word? Deceptive? Yeah. Tests in a row. Yeah, that makes sense. So he confronts her with the results and she immediately burst into tears, which honestly, I probably would have done the same. But also, it doesn't make you look great. Very suspish, but also, yep. But also,

Starting point is 00:09:03 I burst into tears at the grocery store if the wind blows the wrong way. And just being confronted with that would be horrifying. Oh, yeah. No, I can't handle that. And she couldn't either. No. And according to her, the reason why the results showed

Starting point is 00:09:16 deception was because contrary to what she actually said in her statement about the attack that happened in the garage, how she was attacked by multiple men and it got really violent. She said she actually did know the identity of one of these men who had attacked her, but she was terrified that if she named him, he would return to harm her family.

Starting point is 00:09:38 Okay, and this is where I say, well, now that's suspish, because... Yeah. You have now compounded what could be interpreted as a lie on top of deceptive results of a polygraph exam to cover the deceptive results. Yeah. And it's just like, I don't know, it's just strange. Because again, I can understand that if she's scared that this person will hurt her family

Starting point is 00:10:04 or hurt her, if she names them, that is a reality that many people go through in these kinds of situations. So why wouldn't you just say it? Right. And also the police would be much more likely to be able to protect you if they know who they're protecting you from. Exactly. So it's like my initial feeling about that, if I was that investigator would be, it kind of seems like you're trying to fix deception with more deception. You're yanking my chain is what he thought. Yeah. But you can see it both ways. I see both sides of this because I see her not wanting to say anything because she's so scared and I see being on the detective side of things being like, what the fuck?

Starting point is 00:10:55 We can't protect you from someone we don't know. If you know who it is, we can protect you from that person. We can't protect you from an unknown human. Exactly. So the results of the polygraph exam were certainly unusual and her response was certainly unusual. And Bowersmith wasn't ready yet to rule out the possibility that she was lying. But he also had to admit that it was hard to believe somebody would keep up such an aggressive and pretty extreme charade for sure attention. Like he didn't, he felt like she was lying, but also he was like,

Starting point is 00:11:26 why would she lie about this just for attention? Like, and keep it going for so long. And cause it, and ramp it up, you know? And Cindy hadn't been alone in her claims. And that was the other thing. Pat McBride was convinced that she was telling the truth. And actually he himself even answered some of the phone calls that were coming in, like the weird obscene ones.

Starting point is 00:11:44 But in the cases where Pat picked up the phone, the caller would, like, heavy breathe and then hang up. Pat never heard the voice unless it was an answering machine. Now, despite the chaos and stress of the ongoing harassment, the other aspects of Cindy's life actually seem to be going pretty well, relatively well. She was well-liked. She was successful at work. She actually got several promotions between 75 and 83

Starting point is 00:12:06 The years not that many promotions. I was like, wow, really? That's a lot of fucking promotions But the after the attack in the garage, she did file a workers comp claim so that she could take time off to recover Yeah And when she was ready to return her employer was really happy to have her back But they requested that she attend a counseling session with a psychiatrist. That way they could clear her to return to a high pressure environment. She's a nurse, remember? Yeah, she's in healthcare. She's in healthcare. That makes perfect sense. Yeah. So the request to consult with a psychiatrist

Starting point is 00:12:37 was immediately rejected by Cindy. Unfortunately, at that point, she had nothing but negative experiences with mental health professionals. I mean, that is true. And also remember the time period. Mental health is still to this day stigmatized. It's a lot better. But back then, seeking help for your mental health was seen as a weakness.

Starting point is 00:12:57 Like just that's how it was. And she was worried that she would be, quote, stigmatized as unbalanced if she went to see a psychiatrist because that could have something to do with the case too. It could make her seem like she's admitting. Yeah. That maybe some of this is in her head. And that's the thing. You led me perfectly to my next point because also multiple officers with Vancouver police already thought she was making everything up. So she said, well, if I go see a psychiatrist, I'm probably only validating that belief. They're going to be like, see, it's exactly what you said. I get that. Eventually, she did reach a compromise with her boss and she agreed to see Dr. Alex Conley, who was one of the

Starting point is 00:13:34 psychiatrists associated with the clinic that she worked for. Oh, yeah. Isn't that a conflict of interest? You think it's a conflict of interest now, you just sit back and wait. Like you can't have her see someone who works at the clinic she works for. Yeah, you sure can't. She's gotta go to an outside place. You would think. That's bonkers.

Starting point is 00:13:53 It only gets bonkers there. Oh, Lord. Dr. Conley saw Cindy a total of six times before clearing her to return to work, which six times I think is pretty valid. But years later his consultation would be seen by pretty much everybody as sus. Yeah, just straight up sus. Like Pat McBride, Alex Conley seemed pretty taken with Cindy and he didn't have any reservations when it came to believing even the most suspicious

Starting point is 00:14:21 aspects of her story. Oh my goodness, these mans. He just thinks she's really pretty, which if you look up a picture of her, she is gorgeous. She's beautiful. But also, you're a professional. You're supposed to be unbiased here. Exactly. Now, the other thing was he only saw Cindy outside of his normal working hours.

Starting point is 00:14:39 He hardly ever billed for his services. And this is my favorite part. He kept literally, virtually zero written record or notes of their meetings, nothing. No record of their sessions. No, I don't know how many of y'all are in therapy, but they do be scratching down some notes while you're talking.

Starting point is 00:15:00 I would imagine. Not Alex Conley. Gnarly. Yeah, this was gnarly. Yeah. This was highly unusual given that the entire reason she was seeing him in the first place was so that she could be evaluated for that workers' claim, which is like, you need some ... You need records. You need receipts, baby.

Starting point is 00:15:18 So all signs pretty much pointed to an inappropriate level of familiarity between doctor and patient. Now that was that. The threatening notes continued to arrive for Cindy at home and at work throughout the fall and into the summer. But by the fall, things took another alarming turn. And I'm just going to give a trigger warning here like upfront for the rest of the story, just because otherwise I'd have to be like to pause every five seconds. Give like a blanket one. So right here, blanket for the rest of this story, there is mention of animal cruelty and there is a lot of mention,

Starting point is 00:15:49 especially toward the end of like suicide and suicidal ideations. So if that's something that you're not down to here, we'll see you next time. Exactly. So on October 15th, one year to the date after the harassment began, Cindy found a dead cat in her garden

Starting point is 00:16:07 with a rope tied around its neck. Oh. A note next to the cat read, you're next. That's terrifying. Uh-huh. By that point, she also had already moved two times and had changed her phone number. Wow.

Starting point is 00:16:21 But her stalker seemed to have no trouble finding her each time. Which is shocking, especially back then. It would take a lot to keep finding someone. We'll find out later how if there was a stalker, and I'm not saying there was, and I'm just saying I'm very much in the middle on this case. I don't know if she was mentally ill. I don't know if there was a stalker.

Starting point is 00:16:42 I don't know. But we'll find out that if there was a stalker, I don't know. But we'll find out that if there was a stalker, it might not have been that difficult for them to get information. She was a little free with information. Oh, she was giving stuff out. Yeah, exactly. But a few weeks after the discovery of the cat,

Starting point is 00:16:59 she returned home to find her garden completely destroyed. Plants were ripped from the ground, tossed around the yard like it was a wreck. Oh, that's just cruel. Yeah, it is mean. It's mean. home to find her garden completely destroyed. Plants were ripped from the ground, tossed her on the yard like it was a wreck. Oh, that's just cruel. Yeah, it is mean. Mean. And the increased frequency and aggression led McBride to encourage Cindy to actually hire a professional bodyguard. Probably a good idea. Yeah, not a bad idea at all. So she took the advice and started working with Ozzie Caben. He was a private detective and he was actually a friend of Detective Bowyer Smiths, who had extensive experience providing security services

Starting point is 00:17:27 to just private clients. Now hiring Caben obviously made her feel a little bit safer in her home but it really didn't do anything to stop the harassment. That's wild. It is and remember obviously he's not like 24-7 you know. But he's probably on call right?? But yes, he is on call. So in late November, just a few weeks after hiring this new security guard, Cindy found another dead cat in her yard. God, who is killing cats? I can't even talk about it.

Starting point is 00:17:54 It ruins me. In the weeks that followed, the calls and letters started increasing in frequency and somebody started vandalizing the house, smashing basement windows, cutting her phone line, like serious fucking scary shit. Each time she reported the harassment and each time a detective was sent out to the house to investigate, but neither Vancouver PD or Ozzie Caban ever found any evidence that anyone other than Cindy had been at the house. Just none whatsoever.

Starting point is 00:18:25 Wow. Which is weird. Yeah. Like if there is somebody, they're really fucking good at covering their tracks. Yeah. So a few months later on January 30th, 1984, Cindy was actually attacked in her home for a second time.

Starting point is 00:18:39 Around 6 p.m., she called Caben to tell him that she'd been hearing things outside of the house, and she actually thought somebody was trying to break in. Oh, that's terrifying. So he rushed over to the house and when he looked through the front window, he saw her lying on the kitchen floor and it appeared that there was a knife sticking out of her head. Her head?

Starting point is 00:18:57 Her head. H-E-A-D head. Holy shit. Yeah. So he kicked in the door with such force that it actually ripped the entire frame away from the from the wall. I'll see he'd like that's a man's that you want by your side get a whole door frame out. Hopefully he knows how to replace it But so he rushed into the kitchen where Cindy is just laying on the floor like unconscious I got and he expected to find the attacker probably still in the house because he rushed over

Starting point is 00:19:22 Yeah, he's on call, but there was nobody inside the house other than Cindy, and the house was completely silent, completely still, just nobody. But she's stabbed in the head. Well, it turned out that Cindy had actually not been stabbed in the head. She was stabbed in the hand. The angle with which she was looking made it look like it was her hand. Like her hand was up or something. Yeah, exactly.

Starting point is 00:19:48 This is still brutal. According to the police report, there was a paring knife stuck into her hand, almost to the palm. So I'm assuming it went like the knife went through the front of her hand. Holy shit. And it was pinning a note, like, like the knife was stuck to a note then stuck into her hand and the note said, now you must die cunt. Yeah. Yeah. And it was written in cut and paste magazine letters. Like the classic. Like a like a ransom note. Yeah. Imagine you're walking through the park one day and you see a suspicious backpack sitting underneath a bench. You report it to the police and upon investigating, they discover two live pipe bombs inside.

Starting point is 00:20:34 You rush to clear the area before they explode, saving countless lives and preventing injury. Everyone declares you a hero for a fleeting moment until everything changes and you are declared the prime suspect. This was the story of security guard Richard Jewell. After the Centennial Park bombing killed one person and wounded more than 100, public pressure and a media witch hunt pushed a desperate FBI to find a suspect. Despite obvious holes in the case and unethical tactics used by the FBI, security guard Richard Jewell was under pressure to confess.

Starting point is 00:21:04 I'm Aaron Hable. And I'm Justin Evans. Join us as we explore the aftermath of the 1996 Centennial Olympic Park bombing and the newest season of our podcast, Generation Y, the Olympic Park bombing. Follow Generation Y on the Wondry app or wherever you get your podcasts. You can listen to Generation Y ad free right now by joining Wondry Plus. Being a part of a royal family might seem enticing, but more often than not,

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Starting point is 00:21:55 fled her home country to become France's first black supermodel. There's also Queen Christina of Sweden, an icon who traded in dresses for pants, had an affair with her lady-in-waiting, and eventually gave up her crown because she refused to get married. Throw in her involvement in a murder and an attempt to become Queen of Poland, and you have one of the most unforgettable legacies in royal history. Follow even the royals on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts. You can binge Even the Royals ad-free right now on Wondery Plus. You can binge even the Royals ad free right now on Wondery Plus. When the paramedics arrived, it was determined that actually her injury was not very serious,

Starting point is 00:22:34 which I'm like, they must have gone like, there's so many fucking tendons in your hand. But also she's in healthcare. And I just want to point that out. Yeah. Just saying. But it wasn't very serious. and the head injury that she suffered from a supposed blow to the head was also not serious. And the nylon stocking that was tied around her neck also did no lasting damage. But this is the second time that there's a rope tied around her neck. Yeah, like a nylon stocking.

Starting point is 00:22:59 And remember, unfortunately, like the cat, there was a rope around the cat's neck too. So that keeps happening. Okay. But later at the hospital, doctors would find a needle mark on her arm, which led them to believe that she had been injected with an unknown substance. They couldn't determine what it was, but she had no recollection of being injected. Well, here's my question. There's a note that says, now you must die, cunt. Why didn't they kill her? Because it sounds like they didn't really make an effort to because the head injury is not serious. They didn't even know if there really was a head injury. She said that she even struck over the head and that she passed out.

Starting point is 00:23:45 So they're like, okay, like she must have been hit. But it was almost like, it was a case we talked about a few weeks ago where somebody said they'd been hit over the head and like they were only unconscious for a certain amount of time. And the doctors were like, you would have been unconscious for much longer.

Starting point is 00:23:59 And it's like, it sounds like there was really no damn, like it wasn't even a serious injury to the hand. But like, they had, if they were in her house and she's alone and they had a knife and a stocking with them, why didn't they just do it? I mean, I guess you could say that like, maybe they heard, I'm just playing devil's advocate here, maybe they heard Caban coming and ran out the back.

Starting point is 00:24:23 But it's exactly, it sounds like he didn't see anybody leave. Everything was silent. Everything was quiet. I mean, I don't know. It's hard to explain. It's just, and I'm not saying this isn't somebody doing this, like trying to torment her, but it's just like, wow, you're really,

Starting point is 00:24:41 like you had the chance to do it. Right. Do it. And this person is like playing with fire. Yeah. She's reporting this to the police over and over and over. Yeah, they're really rolling the dice here. And if they're stalking her, they know that. They know she's-

Starting point is 00:24:56 They're seeing police presence at the house, you know? I mean, this is shocking. Yeah, it is. Now, like the other reports of assault and harassment, the scene at Cindy's house appeared to be absent of any evidence of an intruder whatsoever. And that's the part that I'm like, what is going on here?

Starting point is 00:25:13 Yeah, on the kitchen floor where she'd been laying, there were circular smears of blood that investigators found highly unusual, like somebody tried to clean the floor. Constable Keio Ikoma, I hope I say that right, said it appeared somebody had wiped it. And he said in his 10 years as an investigator, he had quote, never come across a crime scene

Starting point is 00:25:31 where an assailant attempted to clean up the blood. I mean, I've seen that in plenty of cases where somebody tried to clean up the blood. Thank you, because we've covered cases where that's happened before. Maybe not in his 10 years, but in our six years doing this, I've seen countless cases

Starting point is 00:25:46 where people have tried to wipe up blood at a crime scene. But I will say usually that's when the person that they have attacked is dead. Or when they think that they're dead. Yes, exactly. At least to me, it doesn't seem like there was anything done to Cindy here that would have made them think she was dead. Agreed. But again, who knows? But that I'm like, no, people clean up blood all the time. Yeah.

Starting point is 00:26:09 Or do it badly. That's literally why luminol testing exists. Exactly. But according to Cindy, she had been in her kitchen when she saw who she thought was her neighbor come through the back gate and up her back stairs carrying something in his hand. But by the time she realized it wasn't her neighbor, the man hit her over the head. She said she lost consciousness.

Starting point is 00:26:28 Which would be a severe head injury. Very severe. You don't lose consciousness from a head injury unless it's a serious one. Right, exactly. And I mean, they also said that she may have been injected with something, so I don't know if that made her lose consciousness, but they also couldn't determine

Starting point is 00:26:44 what it was that she'd been injected with. So it's kind of hard to say. Interesting. But given the suspicion with which her other reports had been met, investigators asked her actually to take another polygraph exam, which if she is going through this and she does have this stalker who's attacking her again and again, she's got to sit through all these polygraph tests. Yeah, that's the thing. That's the part of this that is just awful. And sad. As if this is really what's happening.

Starting point is 00:27:12 Holy shit. But then you can see on the other side of things why they want her to because they're like, we're trying to help you here, but there's no fucking evidence. And there's a lot of evidence pointing to no one else doing this. So it's like, I, you can't ignore that. Yeah. Like you can't just be like, okay, yeah, totally. Right. And we don't know who it is. Well, this one is weird because so she, she consented to the polygraph test and at first her results showed that she was telling the truth. Okay. But then the pub, I don't know if it's polygrapher, polygrapher, polygraph giver, I don't know. Polygraph man, or woman. Yeah. I like polygrapher, but-

Starting point is 00:27:48 Polygrapher sounds fun because it's like calligrapher. Exactly. Yeah. Well, this polygrapher, Sergeant Calhud, he reviewed the results a second time several months later for some reason. And he, quote, decided they were inconclusive. Maybe they were looking at it later as the case progressed. Probably, but I'm like- But it's like, you can't- Can you say- You can't retroactively decide she was lying.

Starting point is 00:28:11 Right. And that's what makes people- You gotta tell that at the moment, my friend. Yeah. And that's what makes people not believe in polygraphs, I feel like. Because you can just form them to fit your narrative. Yeah. Like that's literally you just fitting the narrative that might have

Starting point is 00:28:27 started spinning later. Yeah. Because it was like, no, no, no, she's good. She passed this one. And then I don't know if it was after she passed away that they're like, she actually didn't pass that one. She was barely lying. I'm like, I don't know about that. I don't know. Yeah. But in addition to the polygraph exam, Hood interviewed Cindy for about 45 minutes.

Starting point is 00:28:42 And during that interview, she told him that there had been quote periods of violence during her marriage to Roy make peace. And that her ex husband quote, this is wild, often talked about killing people with a crossbow. Oh, which I was like, I thought you weren't afraid of Roy. What? Like you because she was she told people all the time that like, like investigators were like, could this possibly be your ex-husband? And she keeps saying no. And also the stalking and everything started within a week of her leaving him, which is strange. So that is strange.

Starting point is 00:29:14 And I don't think he did anything. I'll say that right at the top. But you're saying you don't think it's him and then you're telling them also that there's periods of violence and that he talked about killing people with a crossbow. Yeah, it's like, come on. And then we get even further later, which your jaw is going to be on the floor. But it's like, hello? But again, so she tells the detective this, or the polygrapher, but then she continues

Starting point is 00:29:38 to insist that Roy couldn't be the attacker. So it's like, okay, then why are you even saying this? The math ain't math. No. But the attack in the kitchen was followed by several more reported incidents of harassment and violence, of course. In July 1984, Cindy claimed that while she was out walking her dog, she was quote, abducted and injected with drugs by two people in a van asking for directions. What? After the report, Ozzy Caben arranged for a hypnosis session and during that session and this is where your jaw is just

Starting point is 00:30:07 Gonna hit the fucking floor Cindy claimed she quote saw her ex-husband chopping up the bodies of a man and woman with an axe at a log cabin Somewhere in the Gulf Islands while they were on vacation Other than that she couldn't provide any details um What? Chopping up the bodies of a man and a woman with a log cabin in the Gulf Islands whilst on vacation.

Starting point is 00:30:36 My, my, this is escalating. Which it's like, what? What? Where the fuck did that come from? Nobody knows. There's no evidence that this ever happened. But it is a story that she- That under hypnosis came out.

Starting point is 00:30:51 Yeah. So it's like- She believes it. How did your brain come out with that? I mean, it seems like she believes it. I mean, also I think there are ways that you can seem like you're- Override hypnosis.

Starting point is 00:31:02 Under hypnosis, that's the thing that I was wondering, but holy shit. And that comes up again later and you're just like, what? It doesn't come up in a way where you can really verify it. Terrifying tale to spin. Yeah. And also the like, abduction, where'd you go? They just abducted you?

Starting point is 00:31:26 Yeah. And then that was it? Yeah. And also she was able to get away, I guess. I don't know. Maybe I'm wrong here, but I don't think people are just injecting people with drugs willy-nilly. I don't think, well, maybe if they're being held captive, I think we've seen that happen. Yeah, but I mean just in an attack scenario. Yeah, and then just leaving them.

Starting point is 00:31:51 I feel like that's a rare occurrence is someone like, because it reminds me of Dexter. People use it as a submission thing in the middle of an attack. That is rare, I think, if we looked really hard into the research of an attack. That is rare, I think. Yeah. If we looked really hard into the research of that. I'm sure. And this has already happened possibly three different times. Yeah. Maybe even more.

Starting point is 00:32:13 But in three different occasions. Mm-hmm. Like that's, and also it's like, okay, so what happened? And it's like unknown substances too. That's the thing. I mean, we're getting to the point where like things are more advanced in this time period. Like they would have been able to identify what substance most things I would think. This is bananas. Well, it only gets more bananas. Wow. I don't know why I said bananas. It gets more bananas. Bananas there. So a year

Starting point is 00:32:42 later in July, 1985, Cindy made more claims of abuse and violence against Roy. And this time investigators actually convinced her to agree to a wiretap in order to try to get him to confess to something because they're like, is he a murderer? Like, hello? At this point, you'd be like, what the fuck is going on here? But rather than capture any kind of confession, the recorded conversation actually depicted Roy Makepeace as a very concerned and at the same time very frustrated partner, ex-partner. On the tape, he can be heard saying, I'm certainly prepared to listen to anything because I'm very, very, very curious about what the hell has been going on, but it's affected

Starting point is 00:33:20 me badly and it damn near cost me my job. Yeah, I can imagine. So I think he's saying like, yeah, I want to hear what's going on because I care about you, but also what the fuck is going on because you're putting me in precarious situations here. You're making me seem like I chop up bodies. Now, seriously. Now, eventually, Cindy tried to elicit some kind of incriminating information. She told him she, quote, couldn't understand what he had been doing to her. And his response was just straight up bewilderment. He said incredulously, what I've been doing

Starting point is 00:33:49 to you for the last couple of years, like being like, what? And then he laid out all the ways where Cindy's ongoing harassment claims negatively affected his life. And he's like, I'm not doing anything to you. What the fuck are you doing to me? Which it's like, why would he be lying? Obviously we've seen deception like this before, but it's harder to understand how someone would lie in a private setting to the person they're lying about. And to feign that much frustration and bewilderment, exactly. So ultimately the call produced zero confession

Starting point is 00:34:20 or really any indication of Roy Makepeace's involvement. Just one month later, Cindy called police to report that somebody had actually broken into her basement this time and set her bathroom on fire. What the fuck? However, when Detective Gary Foster searched outside of the house, he determined that, quote, James was responsible because the cobwebs and dust were undisturbed on the windowsills outside. Oh shit. So nobody had gotten into the basement. Oh damn.

Starting point is 00:34:48 In April 1986, she again reported that somebody broke into the basement and set yet another fire. But as in all the other reports, investigators found no evidence of a break-in and concluded that she had to have set the fire herself. Why is she doing this? Now, you could say that this, I mean, this one, these two incidents with the fire, I believe that she may have done these herself. Yeah, it seems like the evidence points to that. I'm not saying that means that none of the other things

Starting point is 00:35:16 happened like in the beginning. Yeah. Maybe they did, maybe they didn't. These two sets of things, I think she did. And I don't know if it was maybe because she felt like things were ramping down and she for some reason wanted to ramp them back up again. Or maybe just capture the attention of the investigators to make something happen. To make them feel like it was more urgent. Yeah. Maybe.

Starting point is 00:35:45 Maybe, or maybe this whole thing was something she thought was happening. Maybe she was disassociating. That's the other thing. It's like, this is tragic no matter what way it goes. And it's so sad no matter what way it goes. Because it's like, if this is in her head and this is something she's doing,

Starting point is 00:36:01 then she is very mentally ill and very sick. And this is, that's, and she's doing, then she is very mentally ill. And very sick. And she's still living in a place where she, because they're saying like her fear seemed real and her panic seemed real. So it's like she's living in a horrible panic induced state of her own making without her even realizing it. Or she's being tormented by a person or unknown people and no one's believing her.

Starting point is 00:36:31 Either way, it's a fucking nightmare. This is awful no matter what. Or it's a combination of both, which is somehow even worse. Yeah, honestly. There's no better outcome here. This is all awful and this is no kind of't, this is no kind of life to live. No, it's really not. It's really not.

Starting point is 00:36:49 Well, and honestly, it seems like the police agreed that like this was awful and they felt bad for her. According to the press, quote, police wanted to charge James, but didn't because they felt she was suicidal. And that feeling was correct. A few days later, Cindy was actually admitted to the psychiatric ward of St. Paul's Hospital,

Starting point is 00:37:06 where she was evaluated and eventually transferred to Riverview Hospital, which was another mental hospital for inpatient treatment. And that was after her brother Doug signed a petition to have her committed. So even family was starting to wonder like, is something going on here? And they felt she needed help either way.

Starting point is 00:37:25 She does. So throughout her hospitalization, the doctors at Riverview consulted regularly with Cindy's therapist, quote unquote, Dr. Alex Conley, who said that he had been treating her since the first attack in her home. And he believed that she was, quote, and this kind of comes out of nowhere,

Starting point is 00:37:41 anorexic and suicidal, which I was like, okay, helpful. Yeah. But he attributed Cindy's anxiety and depression to investigators failure to catch her stalker. But as author Ann Mulgrew points out, he did not tell them that the police were of the firm opinion she was staging these events. Which what the fuck are you doing

Starting point is 00:37:59 not giving them the full picture? And they need, like, even if you disagree with it, you can say like, I don't personally agree, but the police don't think this is actually happening. Yeah, you have to give the full picture. Because that's going to inform how they approach the- Yeah, and how they treat her. Like, that's pertinent information.

Starting point is 00:38:16 So while she was at Riverview, she was assessed by the hospital staff at various points, including her initial assessment, which was performed by Dr. Wesley Friesen. Among other things, he described her as quote, histrionic, suicidal, and requiring close observation because of her impulsive behavior. Wow.

Starting point is 00:38:34 Now, and this is like from research. Yeah. Somebody who's diagnosed as histrionic does sometimes like repeat behaviors for attention. Yeah. So this So he was of the mind, like in this moment, it seems that he was of the mind that this may have been her doing these things. Yeah. At the time of her admission, she was diagnosed with a paranoid disorder and major affective disorder with psychotic symptoms that caused her to become, quote, increasingly hypervigilant and knows herself that she has misinterpreted events because of this agitated state.

Starting point is 00:39:08 See that, that makes sense to me. Yeah. Now, regardless of Conley's bias reporting, Dr. Friesen quickly became suspicious of Cindy's frequent reports of harassment and attacks, but he also acknowledged at the same time that it was difficult to get an accurate history from Cindy because of her agitation and her resistance to being treated. Yeah, it's a total double-edged sword on every front. It is. So before she was discharged from Riverside,

Starting point is 00:39:35 she would be evaluated again, this time by Dr. Sun Mo Che, who described her as quote, negativistic and conforming with unpredictable moods, pessimism, sullenness, vacillating with social agreement and friendliness. In other words, basically Cindy responded

Starting point is 00:39:51 to a given individual depending on whether she saw them to be a friend or an adversary who kind of didn't believe her. Now, Dr. Choi was more direct than Dr. Friesen, noting that Cindy appeared to be caught in a psychological cycle of engaging in this extreme behavior in order to escape feelings of being upset and feelings of instability. But these events never provided any lasting relief,

Starting point is 00:40:18 and that's why they continued. They should ramps them up. It was a cycle. It's like when you take medication too much, and you need more and more. Yes, the feeling that you need to like, yeah, it is like an addiction. Exactly. Dr. Chay wrote, it is a picture of a paranoid schizophrenic patient with high levels of anxiety

Starting point is 00:40:36 and depression. The psychotic features are evident. That's really sad. It is sad. Now, although the harassing phone calls and letters did continue in the years that followed her hospitalization at Riverside, there was only one more report of an assault and that was in October of 1988. And during this assault, she was, or after it happened, she was found unconscious outside of her home. According to her report, she claimed that she'd been assaulted, strangled,

Starting point is 00:41:02 injected yet again with a drug. But once again, there was no physical evidence of this attack. Yeah. It's just sad. Really sad. Now, the next notable incident occurred on April 8, 1989, when a security guard at Richmond General Hospital,

Starting point is 00:41:17 where Cindy was working, he discovered a note consisting of, again, those cut and paste magazine letters. That's so spooky. I fucking hate it. And he found this letter, and it said, soon, Cindy, in those cut and paste letters. Now, when she left work that afternoon,

Starting point is 00:41:33 she reported to the same security guard that somebody had written sleep well on the dew in her windshield, which is just chilling. Yeah. She appeared obviously disturbed by the discoveries, but she didn't reply with the same level of alarm that she'd demonstrated in the past. I think.

Starting point is 00:41:49 Which she could just be at this point like. Used to it. She's been living it. She's like, oh great, another one. Yeah. On May 25th, 1989, she went for some kind of cosmetic makeover in Vancouver. And then she went to Richmond General

Starting point is 00:42:02 to pick up her paycheck. Friends and coworkers who saw her that day recalled her being upbeat and happier than she'd been in years. That was the last anybody saw of Cindy. The very last time anybody saw her that day was when she deposited her paycheck at the bank. After that, she got into her car, drove off, and disappeared. Wow. Are you in trouble with the law? Need a lawyer who'll fight like hell to keep you out of jail?

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Starting point is 00:43:10 doesn't testify correctly? In order to win at all costs. If Paul asked you to do something, it wasn't a request. It was an order. I'm your host Brandon James Jenkins. Follow Criminal Attorney on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts. You can listen to Criminal Attorney early and ad free right now by joining Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or on Apple podcasts.

Starting point is 00:43:38 On the evening of May 25th, 1989, she actually had plans with her neighbors to play bridge. Her neighbors were Tom and Agnes Woodcock, and around 10pm they still hadn't heard from her. So they knocked on our door, but nobody answered. This was strange because they saw her earlier that day, and also because her car was in the driveway. They finally became really alarmed when they peered into her car and they saw several bags of groceries on the passenger side seat and on the floor. And on the floor in the back, there was a Sears bag from her shopping trip that afternoon. And they became even more concerned when they looked down at the driver's side door and

Starting point is 00:44:16 saw quote unquote rust colored smear on the handle that they thought looked a lot like dried blood. Oh boy. So this is fucking spooky. Not good. Now after discovering the groceries in the car, they drove to the nearest department of the Royal Canadian Mounted Police,

Starting point is 00:44:32 who I'm gonna call the RCMP from this point forward, because damn, that's a fucking mouthful. Yeah, it is. But they reported to the RCMP what they found. Being pretty familiar with Cindy's frequent reports, the RCMP dispatched officers to her house and within a half hour the entire scene had been cordoned off with police tape and crime scene technicians immediately got to work processing this entire scene.

Starting point is 00:44:55 They took swabs of the rust-colored substance on the door, which did ultimately turn out to be blood. And underneath the car they discovered an ATM receipt showing that a deposit had been made into Cindy's bank account in the amount of $1,173. And that was at 7.58 p.m. Inside the car, they found those four bags of groceries from the local Safeway. They found Cindy's purse, which was just sitting on the front seat. And inside her purse, they found two sets of keys to the house and to the car. So the car keys were literally right there.

Starting point is 00:45:26 They found $277 in cash and her checkbook with every single check accounted for. Wow. Once the car was completely processed, it was towed to the police impound yard. But it just looked like she pulled up to go inside. And then just disappeared. Just like completely vanished.

Starting point is 00:45:43 Now, given that her purse and her keys were completely undisturbed, investigators were pretty much able to rule out robbery as the motive. They also contacted all the local cab companies to see if maybe she had like hopped in a cab and gone somewhere, just didn't take anything with her, but none had been called.

Starting point is 00:46:00 So that was strange. So they were like, okay, if she did leave, she had to have left with a friend or a possible abductor. Maybe we're wrong here. Maybe the only choice is really ramped up now. Now believing they were searching for a missing person, the RCMP contacted the Canadian Coast Guard to conduct a search of the river while they handled the ground search inside her house. Nothing looked unusual, nothing seemed out of place. It literally just looked like she pulled into the driveway and like we just said disappeared into the thin air. The next day she still hadn't been found, so the

Starting point is 00:46:34 RCMP officer started making the notifications to friends and family and really started their formal investigation. And of course they started with the most likely suspect, her ex Roy Makepeace. Throughout the years of this repeated harassment and assault claims made by Cindy, his name was the only constant factor. They didn't have any other suspect whatsoever and he wasn't even really a suspect. Even if he wasn't always accused of anything specific, they still wanted to talk to him. And by that point, he was so used, he was like accustomed to being interviewed. So he was pretty unbothered by the intrusion. He said, since his divorce from Cindy, he had become increasingly drawn into her life of just constant drama. But he maintained he wasn't responsible for any of it. And in the cases where he was present,

Starting point is 00:47:20 he was only there to make sure she was safe. Like when Pat McBride found him in the car with a gun, it was just to scare off an attacker if he saw one. Which again, like, and I don't believe he had anything to do with this after hearing everything, but- But it's sus. But you can understand them checking in on it because you're like, well, that is what an attacker would say. Yeah, exactly.

Starting point is 00:47:40 That I was just there with guns because I wanted to protect her. And this is literally the only place you have to go right now. So you might as well start there. But he explained also to officers that he actually hadn't spoken to Cindy since that wired, tapped phone call nearly four years earlier.

Starting point is 00:47:56 Oh, damn. Yeah. And more importantly, he was also able to account for his whereabouts for the entire previous day. It would have been impossible for him to object Cindy. Now during their interviews with Roy, investigators noted he didn't seem suspicious at all. And they genuinely believed that he didn't have anything to do with this. In fact, despite everything that he'd been through with Cindy, like all of

Starting point is 00:48:17 the- Her saying that he chopped up bodies on vacation and talking about killing people with crossbows. Exactly. Through all of that, he still believed that somebody had been harassing her and genuinely thought she was in real danger. Wow. He even told police that as recently as that fall, he had gotten strange messages on his own answering machine,

Starting point is 00:48:37 alluding to a previous arranged hit on Cindy. And he believed the mafia could have been involved. Okay. That comes out of nowhere. I was going to say, does that pan out? It doesn't go anywhere. I don't think. Yeah, I don't know about that.

Starting point is 00:48:51 This isn't saying mafia to me. I don't know about that. And I'm also like, it doesn't ever sound like she like borrowed a ton of money or got caught up in that. No, it would be a very, I'm like, why? Yeah. He seemed like a real heady kind of guy. Yeah. You know? Yeah. That's a good way of putting it. Yeah. But ultimately he was ruled out as a suspect.

Starting point is 00:49:10 Now within a few days, the news about Cindy's disappearance broke in all the local papers and journalists focused on what they described as quote, dozens of complaints of harassment and threats. In fact, at that point, there was nearly 100 in total. I believe it. Yeah. In an interview with a reporter, Cindy's father, Otto, said on the day of his daughter's disappearance that, quote, Cindy called her friend and indicated, some people may think I'm paranoid, but I have a feeling I have been being followed all week.

Starting point is 00:49:39 Which is strange. Yeah. He told reporters it was possible that Cindy maybe lost her memory and just couldn't find her way home. But he admitted it was quote, more likely she has been abducted and held against her will or possibly even dead. He said, we have to hope she's still alive, but I fear she will be in very poor shape when she is found. It's strange that he was like, maybe she lost her memory and just couldn't find her way home. It's like, is that a normal occurrence? Yeah.

Starting point is 00:50:05 Like that wouldn't be my first thought. That wouldn't be my first thought either. If you were missing, I wouldn't be like, well, maybe she just completely lost her memory and can't find her way home. I thought that was odd too. That wouldn't be a thought. I don't know if it was just because weird shit

Starting point is 00:50:18 was happening all the time in Zindi's life. Well, and also I'm like, do you have an idea that maybe there's some mental illness happening that you're not really opening up about? Right. But that's a pretty good indicator of it. That's kind of what I thought. Yeah. Or maybe, I mean, she's claiming in the past that she's been injected with things. Maybe they had phone conversations with her where she sounded loopy or she just was telling them like,

Starting point is 00:50:41 I've been injected, I've been hit over the head. So maybe they're like, she's got drama. I mean, they knew about the ordeals that she was going through. So there's that. Yeah, it's strange. But on June 8th, just a few days after Otto gave his interview, his fears were completely realized when a municipal works crew who was patching pavement

Starting point is 00:50:59 discovered Cindy's body in this yard of an abandoned house. What a sad ending to this. It is. She was found about a mile from where she'd last been seen at the ATM. According to a neighbor who lived across the street from the house, an old man lived in a van behind that house, but otherwise it had been unoccupied for months. The neighbor said, God knows what else is in there, kind of indicating that it was like a popular spot with like kids and vagrants, that kind of thing. Nair dwells. They're dwells. Partying kids, you know?

Starting point is 00:51:27 Yeah. Now, her body was discovered in the bushes along the edge of the property. She was fully clothed with her hands and feet tied behind her back with black nylon stocking. Like, half-tied. Keep using the stocking. Yes, stocking again. There were signs of advanced decomp indicating that she'd been in the location for at least a few days. Her blouse was torn in certain places, but they said there was no other evidence of a struggle at the scene.

Starting point is 00:51:54 I disagree. They also said her clothes didn't seem to have been disturbed, but I'm like, her blouse is torn. So I would call that disturbed personally. But maybe they're thinking about maybe the way it looks is like, it doesn't really look like it was disturbed. It's just like ripped. Yeah. It's like a weird way of putting it. And there was no foreign material on her body. So that's a good thing. But despite the lack of evidence of a struggle, the pathologist

Starting point is 00:52:18 noted that one of her fingers had scratched another and this is a quote, down to the bone. Fuck. I'm like, how is that even possible? Like one of her fingers had scratched the other one? Down to the bone. Huh. Which I'm like, is it possible that she scratched like a lot and then because of decomp it? Yeah, maybe.

Starting point is 00:52:42 It just sped up the decomp to the bone? Maybe she was scratching to get out of the bindings. But I don't know, because we'll get there. But it led her to theorize that Cindy had been alive when she was left in the yard. Otherwise, there was no signs of violence, and at that point, no obvious cause of death. The fuck?

Starting point is 00:52:59 The autopsy was performed later that day by Dr. Sheila Carlisle at the Royal Colombian Hospital. And the first thing Dr. Carlisle noticed was when she removed the binding, she said, quote, the ligature around one wrist was loose enough to be easily slipped off over the hand. Oh, shut up. And none of the binds on the wrists and ankles were tight enough to indent the skin. What? Yeah, that's very loose.

Starting point is 00:53:24 Because immediately I was thinking, like what you said, was she scratching to get the bindings loose, but they were loose. And they had to have been loose for quite some time because there was no indentation anywhere. That's bizarre. Right? Bizarre. In fact, there was no bruising or injury on any part of her skin, except for a small pin prick on the inner right arm just below the elbow, and that was determined to be consistent with an injection from a hypodermic needle. Based on the insect activity, the pathologists believe that Cindy's body had been in the lot since probably at least June 2nd, but it was possible she'd been there ever since

Starting point is 00:54:04 she disappeared earlier than June. But initially, the cause of death was listed as asphyxiation. But when the toxicology report came back, Dr. Carlyle changed the cause of death to an overdose of morphine, florozepam, and diazepam. Oh, based on the examination of the stomach contents, Dr. Carlyle concluded Cindy had ingested the florozepam. Oh, based on the examination of the stomach contents, Dr. Carlyle concluded Cindy had ingested the fullerazepam and the diazepam, which are both sedatives, in pill form. She was

Starting point is 00:54:32 able to determine that. But Cindy didn't have a prescription for either of those things. So that was strange. That is weird. And then the morphine was also believed to have been ingested orally in liquid form. And although it was impossible to know for sure, Dr. Carlyle did theorize that the most likely cause of death was the flourazapam in Cindy's system, and she suspected that Cindy had ingested anywhere from 20 to 80 tablets of that. Holy shit. Under those circumstances, she would have had about 30 minutes before losing consciousness,

Starting point is 00:55:05 and that would have been quickly followed by coma and then death. So it's unclear just how it happened, but within a day of the body being identified as Cindy James, the press started reporting that RCMP officers were investigating the death as a quote unquote elaborate suicide. Whoa. Which given how she had been found was very hard to swallow for the public because of course nobody believed that she could have possibly hogtied herself. But when you, with the bindings being so loose. Yeah.

Starting point is 00:55:36 And I mean the medical examiner said she could slip a handout and they were so loose that they didn't leave indentations. He's also a healthcare worker and those were sedatives. Uh-huh. Which I'm sure she had access to. I mean, it's an awful thing to think about that, like, she took an enormous amount of sedatives to basically pass out, fall asleep, and then die there, overdose, where she couldn't move, basically. It's hard to believe. It's hard to believe.

Starting point is 00:56:06 It is hard to believe. It really is. Even when you lay it out logically and say like, sure, absolutely, it could have been because the evidence leads you up to it. Right. It's hard to believe. It really is. I mean. Well, there's no other case that I've heard of quite like this. Because then you think of the other side of it where you're like, if someone forced medication down her throat, yeah, to like make her pass out an overdose and left her bound.

Starting point is 00:56:34 And made it, did it loose on purpose. Cause they knew she was going to die anyway. And she would, but it's like, where did that finger thing come in? Where she was like scratching her finger down to a bone. Like that part is, that's the part that's hard to I don't know I just I can't make heads or tails of any I can't either I can't either but either way the reports of the suicide theory seemed completely preposterous to anybody who knew anything about Cindy's ordeal over the previous decade and even the work crew who found her flatly rejected that idea. One of the workers

Starting point is 00:57:06 told a reporter, this definitely wasn't a suicide. You couldn't possibly put yourself in that position, which you could, I can see why he would think that. I mean, I can't imagine finding somebody like that. And then somebody being like, oh yeah, they did that to themselves. I'd be like, no, they didn't know. But when you think about the loose bindings, she very much. Yeah. Now, in the absence of an official story from the RCMP, the press took complete control of the narrative, and they shifted their attention to what they perceived as a complete failure on the part of law enforcement to protect Cindy, despite the years and years of complaints that she was filing.

Starting point is 00:57:39 One friend told a reporter the cops just never believed her. And in an op-ed for The Province, Vancouver reporter Patricia Graham wrote, I feel disgust and anger, sadness and regret that we let Cindy down so badly. Cindy James tried everything possible to protect herself. She went to Vancouver and Richmond RCMP repeatedly. She did her best, but she still lived in terror for eight years. Worse, she had to live through her personal hell knowing that she was doubted, that she was suspected of inflicting this on herself, that her terror was not recognized or validated. I mean, yeah, that's, you can't, you bounce back and forth between how terrible both sides of this coin are, no matter what the outcome is or what the process and journey of this whole

Starting point is 00:58:20 thing was. Yeah, it's awful. It is. It's No matter what she was living in a state of terror of either her own mind's making or reality and no matter what she was being doubted the entire time. It's like we said, it's just no way to live. But while the press continued their outpouring of sympathy for Cindy and the considerable criticism of the RCMP, investigators were learning a little bit more about Cindy's life and the weeks leading up to her death. The medical examiner's report strongly indicated that she could have staged the entire scene herself. Loose bindings, those drugs could have been

Starting point is 00:58:54 voluntarily ingested, and the pinprick on her arm was believed to have been the result of Cindy actually withdrawing blood from herself to wipe it on the driver's side door. Whoa. Which is wild to think of anybody doing, but it is possible. Especially when they're saying that the drugs in her system weren't ingested, not injected. Especially orally, that's the thing. Exactly. Moreover, in their

Starting point is 00:59:16 interview with Dr. Friesen, they learned that Cindy had spoken frequently of suicide in recent sessions and she had been hoarding quote- quote unquote huge amounts of medication that he had been prescribing her in the months before her death. Oh, geez. Yes. And two months before her death, she had actually stopped taking her medication. And this is so sad. According to Friesland, she stopped taking it because the mortgage rate was going to go up and she couldn't afford the prescription cost. How fucked up is that? It's fucked up that that's, I mean, this was like 20 something years ago or 40.

Starting point is 00:59:46 And it's still happening. And it's still happening. You choose to keep a roof over your head or to take the medication that you need. You have to choose. Right. Like that should not be any other choice. That's insane. That should just, you should be able to have both. Yeah.

Starting point is 00:59:56 But the hacks when they got to Cindy's house actually flushed all the pills that they discovered there. Why? I'm not sure. That's, that's weird. It's weird. I don't know. Strange behavior. I don't know. I don't want to speculate. I just don't know. Yeah. I mean, it's people do strange things when they're grieving people. Yeah. Things to make sure that somebody does not look a certain way in a certain way and like be perceived. Yeah. So like, yes, but no, like you can't do that. Especially when you think she was possibly being like, I don't know, you just don't get rid of anything. I know. But I don't know. Again, people do do odd

Starting point is 01:00:38 things when they're grieving. That's the thing. But the medication was not the only discouraging discovery that they made when they searched her home. While going through Cindy's belongings, a family member found a glass cutter, a kit containing a syringe, IV equipment, a urinary catheter, and saline solution. And then in one of her sewing kits, they found an unopened needle and syringe. Oh, no. Yeah. I mean, that's concerning all of that. It's strange.

Starting point is 01:01:09 I mean. A glass cutter? That's the thing. I was just gonna say. The syringe? She works in healthcare, so like, I guess you could have some of these things. I don't know why you'd have them. I don't know why they're in your person.

Starting point is 01:01:20 Like, why? I mean, not on your person, but I don't know why they're in your house. But a glass cutter? What? I mean, on your person, but I don't know why they're in your house, but a glass cutter? What? I mean what's more important is she has access to these things. Exactly. But despite all the newly discovered evidence, actually, and this was surprising to me, Dr. Friesen still had a hard time believing that Cindy had actually taken her own life. He

Starting point is 01:01:53 told investigators, I saw her the week before she disappeared and she was the best I've ever seen her. The most positive, the most optimistic I've ever seen her. I mean, that happens. That's a, that's a, that happens a lot. It's like, it's horrible to think about and it's chilling to think about, but there's like, sometimes this moment of clarity and peace that comes before something really tragic. Yes. He said that she had renewed her interest and commitment to reporting the incidents of harassment that she was going through. He said she felt confident that everything was actually gonna be resolved soon, which that's chilling, thinking that that was a discussion

Starting point is 01:02:30 that was had right before that. And given her mood and her future orientation, he just couldn't accept the theory that the RCMP was putting forth. He said, Cindy would not kill herself unless it was accidental. If it was an accidental suicide, I could understand that. I don't know if you can't really say that with definitive. No, I think someone's head you can't say they absolutely would not have done that.

Starting point is 01:02:54 You can say I'm finding it hard to believe that. Yes, she would have, but I'm not in her brain. I think he cared about her on a deep level. And I'm not saying on an inappropriate level. Yeah, you mean like just cared about her well-being. I think she really cared about her on like a deep level. And I'm not saying on an inappropriate level. You mean like just cared about her wellbeing. I think he really cared about her and it was a shock that this had happened. And I mean, her doctor who's treating her, that hurts that he didn't, I'm sure he felt like he didn't see the signs properly.

Starting point is 01:03:20 He wanted to help and he felt like he didn't. Or that he would have seen the signs. So there's no way he could have missed it Yeah But on July 12th after more than a month of investigation the RCMP reported that they were officially ruling out foul play and that Cindy's Death was going to be labeled a suicide According to dr. Tony Marcus who actually evaluated Cindy several times and consulted with the investigators Cindy James was a quote and this is is a quote, a borderline personality who weaved a tremendous plot to be the center of attention. That's a quote, quote, quote, quote.

Starting point is 01:03:49 I'm not saying that he said that. From a doctor, a quote. Yes. He also allowed for the possibility that she was telling the truth, but he said based on his experiences with her, he's a doctor who's treating her and the abject lack of evidence, he felt it was just highly unlikely that she was telling the truth. Although the RCMP ordered a coroner's inquest to determine the circumstances of Cindy's death, the investigators' official conclusion was a disappointment to the Hack family. Of course it was. AutoHack told their reporters, The RCMP's explanation didn't satisfy me at all. There's a murderer out there somewhere.

Starting point is 01:04:21 And I can totally understand that too. I mean, that's her father. No one is, and who's even sure of this? I'm not. You know? Initially the inquest was scheduled for October 12th, 1989, but of course it got pushed back several times and it didn't begin until late February 1990. In his opening remarks, coroner Gerald Tilley told the jury that the inquest would cover the 90 reported incidents of harassment between 82 and 89. So this is literally what's that six years, seven years for this. And they said there would be special attention paid to the circumstances obviously of Cindy's death in May of 1989. And this inquest was only scheduled to last for 15 days. Keep that

Starting point is 01:05:01 in mind. The first witness to testify was Cindy's one-time boyfriend, Pat McBride, and he told the jury that she, quote, hinted to him that her former husband may have been responsible for a series of strange incidents involving harassing phone calls, letters, various incidents of vandalism. He said, she led me to believe that a certain person may be involved, her husband, Dr. Roy Makepeace. He also explained that he had caught Roy Makepeace lurking in the area around her house on more than one occasion, but he could also at the same time never establish any evidence that Roy was

Starting point is 01:05:34 responsible for this harassment. And it's like, and she's telling everyone else that he couldn't be the person. Yeah, she's telling Pat McBride, maybe he suspected it is him. Like what's going on? Yeah. Now Pat McBride's testimony established the onset of the incidents and who Cindy suspected may have been to blame, but it also highlighted the extent that law enforcement questioned these claims pretty much from the beginning. He was one of several witnesses who acknowledged that Cindy seemed thoroughly resistant to taking any steps to protect or remove herself from the situation, especially after, like I said, she started giving her unlisted phone number out to multiple people within weeks of having

Starting point is 01:06:14 it changed. McBride said, the advice was coming from someone with a vested interest in making sure she was secure. I didn't like the idea she was turning my ideas to not. So he's saying like, I was telling her, don't do that. Don't be giving out this information. You don't know who this person is. And she still was. His partner, Andy Richards, also testified telling the jury that he believed Cindy had used a set of Pat McBride's wire cutters to cut the phone line while he was living in the house. Holy shit.

Starting point is 01:06:42 Yeah. So she, again, she had access to things that could have done that. Partner, like another cop. Yeah. Now, although the RCMP and other agencies were obviously prohibited from speaking publicly while this inquest was going on, it didn't take a formal statement to figure out that there were several very valid reasons

Starting point is 01:06:59 for believing that Cindy could have been responsible for staging all of this. A lot of the investigators who testified noted that there was an almost near absolute lack of evidence to support these claims. And despite the countless hours of formal and informal surveillance, I can never say surveillance. I always say surveillance. But none of the investigators ever saw anybody suspicious on or near her property. That's wild. In part one, I said- Years of constant surveillance and- Years.

Starting point is 01:07:31 This person's just a ghost for these people. And if you remember in part one, I said that I think it was neighbors had seen- Oh, strange unknown men. Yeah, unidentified men in the neighborhood. How many times have you seen somebody you don't recognize in your neighborhood? Yeah. And been like, who the fuck is that? But it's just like a guy. But it's just like some dude walking in his house. So it's like it absolutely could be something or it could be nothing.

Starting point is 01:07:55 Exactly. But there was also the matter of the failed polygraph. Oh, my God. I can't say polygraph and I can't say surveillance. See, I always say yance. I don't know what that's about. But there was the matter of the failed polygraph examinations when, here we go again, polygrapher, Vic Farmer testified. He told the jury that the results indicated that Cindy was lying or lying in part about the attack in January 1983. And he said, when she was confronted with these results, she responded by grabbing his arm and saying, Vic, I'm sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry. And he said, when she finally collected herself,

Starting point is 01:08:37 she changed various parts of her story, but then refused to take a third polygraph exam. Sergeant Cal Hood, who administered a polygraph exam after the incident in 1984, reported a similar outcome where he suspected Cindy of being deceitful. Also included on the witness list were a number of doctors and psychologists and psychiatrists who had treated Cindy over the years, including Dr. Choi, Dr. Marcus, Dr. Friesen, and Dr. Turmanson. He was a psychiatrist from Riverview. And in his testimony, Dr. Turmanson told the jury

Starting point is 01:09:12 that Cindy was, quote, capable of intense attraction and intense rage at rejection. And that could have caused her to lash out in strange and irrational ways to try to garner sympathy and attention, while also getting back at whoever she felt like had wronged her, no matter how irrational that belief might be.

Starting point is 01:09:31 Wow. Like she might see it that somebody wronged her, like, and this is just an example, like Roy wronged her. I mean, he did, he hit her. Yeah. So she may have done something like this to get back at him and garner sympathy was this doctor's belief. Okay. Now the RCMP and medical examiner's case for suicide was a strong one, but the authorities

Starting point is 01:09:53 were hardly unanimous in their opinion. Among those who were not in favor of the suicide theory was Dr. Joseph Noon, a forensic psychiatrist who was hired to review Cindy's medical record. He heavily criticized several of the medical providers, including Dr. Conley, which I'm sure you can imagine why, but he called them armchair psychiatrists and he said their meddling in Cindy's treatment had potentially compromised the case to the point that they might never find the truth. I mean, some of them were treating her though.

Starting point is 01:10:25 What's that? Some of them were treating her like in Riverview. Yeah. So it's like, I don't know if they were meddling, they were treating her. I don't think he was, like he wasn't criticizing all of them. He was criticizing a some of them.

Starting point is 01:10:39 Yeah, a small. Okay, because I was like Dr. Connelly, sure. Criticizing. Yeah, exactly. But I'm like, I don't know. When she was being treated in a place, it's like they're just treating her. And Dr. Friesen seemed like he was doing a good job. Dr. Che seemed a little more intense than Dr. Friesen, but still seemed like he was in it. Yeah, exactly. Interesting. But while Noon clearly disagreed with several of Cindy's supporters, it didn't mean he agreed with authorities. He said that her medical records actually read very clean. But he was in agreement with Dr.

Starting point is 01:11:09 Friesen believing that Cindy was likely being harassed by an unknown party, and that resulted in depression, anxiety, and paranoia, not the other way around. Not that she was paranoid and therefore making this all up in her head. But he believed actually this was happening and that's why she was feeling this way. Among Cindy's most vocal defenders was her private security guard, Ozzie Caben, who just really seems like a sweetheart. He's very out there, but he seems like a sweetheart.

Starting point is 01:11:37 Oh, he's out there? A little bit, we'll see. He told the jury he just couldn't believe that she had staged every incident of stalking and harassment, not only because she seemed super genuine, but also because of what he believed was strong evidence that supported her claims. Specifically with regard to the alleged 1984 kidnapping,

Starting point is 01:11:56 where she was abducted by those two people in the van and like injected with something. Yeah. He told the jury that he investigated the area where she said everything went down, where she got abducted, And he found that quote, the ground was disturbed and there were dragging marks. Okay. Which is interesting. Yeah. You could make that yourself. He's a private security guard. So I'm like, it doesn't hold a lot of weight. Exactly. Now, after two

Starting point is 01:12:21 weeks, the inquiry shifted its attention to Cindy's relationship, of course, with her ex-husband Roy Makepeace. Like I think I said at the top of this, the harassment began within weeks of her separation from Roy, and he had been a regular feature in the reports from an early phase of the investigation, in name if not in presence. While many witnesses steered clear of accusing him of any wrongdoing, there was a strong inference that he was involved. In fact, the jury heard about that hypnosis session where she accused him of chopping up bodies with an axe. Though the hypnotist acknowledged that it was possible, she just believed the incident was real in her mind. Which is also scary. Yeah, absolutely. But also that sucks for him if it was just like a scenario that her mind. Yeah Real or not though her sister actually added credibility to that story

Starting point is 01:13:12 when she testified that Cindy had also told her about this alleged murder in 1984 where Roy allegedly used a hatchet to quote cut off a limb and spread blood on Cindy's face Warning her I could easily do this to quote, cut off a limb and spread blood on Cindy's face, warning her I could easily do this to you too. I'm sorry what Melanie? It should be noted that this was the first time any member of law enforcement had heard Melanie hacks story about this and it was completely unverified. Yeah.

Starting point is 01:13:40 Cause where, where were you? What is going on? Like you're literally just bringing this up. It was just something that Cindy may have reiterated to her and she just, you know, said, you know, now's the time to share that. Now's the time to share that. Now after she's like, she's been going through all this harassment and stalking and like attacks and everything.

Starting point is 01:13:58 And it's like, you got to tell the police. Yeah. Wow. I mean, I think the hypnotist told the police and they investigated it, but there was no evidence that this occurred. But it's like, what? Why aren't you saying anything, Melanie?

Starting point is 01:14:11 Wild. Now, surprisingly Roy never actually testified during the inquest, but his words did make it into the record in the form of that recorded phone call. Oh yeah, the wiretap. Yeah, he also had a nearly six hour interview with police, which was also recorded and that was after the attack in 1984. And in his interview with

Starting point is 01:14:31 detective Valier Smith, he could be heard expressing his fears that he actually believed Cindy was trying to frame him. And he was disappointed that he was suspected of all of this. He told the detective firstly, I could not believe I was a suspect, let alone the only suspect. Everything I said was twisted. Now in the end, he actually received, I mean, like no sympathy from the investigators. I mean, on fair counts because I mean, they thought he was strange, first of all, it sounds like he was a strange character, but also he had admitted to spousal abuse. Yeah. So it's like, I don't know, you've lost it for me. That's the thing. But then at the same time, it makes you a shit person. Yeah, exactly. But at the same time, they did see that he seemed

Starting point is 01:15:11 unwaveringly committed to protecting Cindy, at least especially in the early years before they cut off contact. But regardless of how they felt about him personally, there was just no evidence connecting him to the crimes. And by the time Cindy recorded their phone call in 1985, it was clear that he just wanted nothing to do with this anymore. Now, like I said, initially the coroner's request was scheduled for 15 days, but by the time it concluded on May 25th, 1990,

Starting point is 01:15:37 it dragged on for more than three months, and at this point became the most expensive inquest in Canadians' history. Damn. history. In the course of hearing testimony from almost 75 witnesses and reviewing countless documents, the jurors were told two versions of events. One that strongly supported the belief that Cindy had taken her own life and another where the evidence was a great deal more ambiguous and at least gestured toward the possibility that, you know, maybe she was telling the truth about having a stalker and an attacker. Some of the testimony, like I said, Ozzie Caban is a little out there. He believed that Cindy was murdered in a satanic ritualistic sacrifice. Oh, come on, Ozzie. He lost me there. He lost me, man. Yeah, that testimony wavering

Starting point is 01:16:24 there. That lost me. Yeah, that testimony. I was already wavering there. That lost me. Yeah, that testimony was given very little credence. That's really good. Other witnesses, including the various doctors who testified that she may have taken her life, obviously that was taken very seriously. But in the end, the jury could not

Starting point is 01:16:38 determine what had led to the end of Cindy James's life. And the official circumstances of her death was revised from suicide to undetermined. Wow. to the end of Cindy James's life. And the official circumstances of her death was revised from suicide to undetermined. Wow. Yeah. For the jury, the inquest was particularly stressful. Juror Shirley Gleholt said, I not only cried myself to sleep, but I cried in the courtroom too. I can't imagine. Because they had to see tons of graphic photographs. I mean, they saw the position that she was in, all these crazy descriptions of violence. And they also spent months listening to conflicting opinions and testimony

Starting point is 01:17:13 that at times became really, really. Oh, yeah, I'm sure. And then, you know, this woman died tragically either way. So they felt this task to figure out what happened. But it was an emotional roller coaster. It's such a sad life. Yeah. died tragically either way. So they felt this task to figure out what happened, but it was an emotional rollercoaster. She had such a sad life. Yeah. Another juror said, there were all shades of grays,

Starting point is 01:17:31 no black and white. In the end, you felt you knew Cindy. Your heart just ached for the girl. When it came time to deliberate, they spent more than three hours just arguing with one another. There was two jurors in favor of suicide, and then there was three in favor of undetermined. Jury foreman Len Rogers said, it boils down to nothing. Nothing firm pointed

Starting point is 01:17:51 to suicide. So many things were just speculation. That's the thing. You can just, it's a double sided coin here. Yeah, I could, I don't think I could have ever made a decision. And in the end, they were right. There was no evidence to prove that Cindy had taken her life and there was no evidence that she had been murdered. Just like the 90 reports of harassment in her past, the truth seemed to just allude to everybody. But what we do know is that no matter what, it's like we've been saying this entire time, this was a fucking nightmare life. Whether it was mental illness or stalking. She was a victim. Yeah. She was absolutely

Starting point is 01:18:25 a victim of something, whether it be mental illness or a deranged fucking stalker that it's just, I mean, it's possible. Like I'm not saying it's not. It's just so hard to imagine like this level of planning and commitment and... And the ability to just never be seen or detected in any physical way. Ever. Like there was never one shred of evidence left. But I mean, that happens, you know?

Starting point is 01:18:57 It's very few and far between, but it happens. But I think it's still an important story to tell because who knows, she could have been murdered And if she was then this person completely got away with it. Yeah, cuz no matter what she was a victim of something Hopefully I just want somebody to like Find a box with all the documents and comb through them and just find one thing that points to the actual answer I can point to either way. Yeah, give them something cuz you feel bad It's just yeah, it's an awful tale, no matter what way it spins.

Starting point is 01:19:28 But it would be nice to have some answers. I'm sure everybody who loved her goes back and forth all the time in their own heads, like what the fuck happened here. Neither outcome is a good one. So it's like, no. How awful. It is.

Starting point is 01:19:40 It's an awful case, but a very, very interesting one. It is. I've never, like I said, I think I said it earlier, I've never heard of a case quite like this. No, it's very, very unique and very bizarre. If you know of one, let us know, because we found this fascinating, tragic, but fascinating.

Starting point is 01:19:55 Yeah, if you know of another one like this, it would be interesting to look into. Yeah, definitely suggest it. I also looked up the pronunciation for. Polygrapher? Polygrapher. Polygrapher? Polygrapher. Polygrapher. Polygrapher.

Starting point is 01:20:08 I mean, that could just be the robot. Doesn't that just feel wrong? It does feel wrong. That just feels like when I'm reading and I accidentally read photographer instead of photographer. Do you ever do that? Yep.

Starting point is 01:20:17 But then this person says. Yeah. Polygrapher. Polygrapher. I guess you, you probably just say both. I prefer that. I like polygrapher. I like Poligrapher. Yeah, it's fun.

Starting point is 01:20:26 Yeah. Well, we hope you keep listening. And we hope you. Keep it weird. But not so weird that we ever find the difference between Poligrapher and Poligrapher. Never. Bye.

Starting point is 01:21:46 Yeah. I'm going to go to the bathroom. If you like morbid, you can listen early and ad-free right now by joining Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or on Apple Podcasts. Prime members can listen ad-free on Amazon Music. Before you go, tell us about yourself by filling out a short survey at Wondery.com slash survey.

Morbid - Episode 602: The Strange Death of Cindy James (Part 2)

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