Morbid - Episode 634: Michael and Suzan Carson: San Francisco Witch Killers

Episode Date: January 6, 2025

On January 12, 1983, the Sonoma County Sheriff’s Department received a call from a frantic driver who reported they’d just witnessed a shooting on the side of the side of the road in Fulton, California and the shooters had fled the scene a pickup truck. Deputies quickly located the truck and were led on a forty-five minute high-speed chase through Sonoma and Napa counties before finally being apprehended and identified as Michael and Suzan Carson.The Carsons were held on a charge of murdering the truck’s original owner, Jon Charles Hellyar, but they refused to say a word to police. In time, however, Michael and Suzan Carson began to talk and eventually held a press conference during which they revealed a great deal about themselves and even went so far as to make ambiguous confessions to other recent murders in Northern California. In the months that followed their arrest, Michael and Suzan Carson reveled in their notoriety and the media attention their statements captured. In addition to the murder of Hellyar, they would also be convicted of two other murders, claiming themselves to be Muslim warriors on a mission to rid the world of witches and other practitioners of dark magic, earning them the nickname “The San Francisco Witch Killers.”Thank you to the Incredible Dave White of Bring Me the Axe Podcast for research and Writing support!ReferencesAssociated Press. 1983. "Couple complains their trial didn't get enough publicity." The Californian, April 28: 29.Brewster, Rod. 1983. "Carsons claim their killings were 'will of God'." Petaluma Argus-Courier, May 4: 1.—. 1983. "Carson's preliminary hearing on murder stats." Petaluma Argus-Courier, March 4: 2.Daily Beast. 2020. "Daughter of serial 'witch kiler': if he goes free, 'someone else will be dead'." Daily Beast, May 27.—. 2015. "Witch-killers' family: Keep them in Jail." Daily Beast, December 3.Manes, George. 1983. "Probe of suspects widens." Press Democrat, January 30: 1.Napa Valley Register. 1983. "Chase probe continues." Napa Valley Register, January 18: 2.Navarro, Mireya. 1984. "'Good witch' to the rescue." San Francisco Examiner, May 30: 11.—. 1984. "Remorseless 'witch-killers' get 25 to life." San Francisco Examiner, July 2: 15.Reynolds, Richard D. 1988. Cry for War: The Story of Suzan and Michael Carson. San Francisco, CA: Squibob Press.Saludes, Bony. 1985. "Carson says trial unfair." Press Democrat, June 19: 2.San Francisco Examiner. 1984. "Carson comptent for trial." San Francisco Examiner, January 9: 14.Sharpe, Ivan. 1983. "Couple boasts to police of killing 3 'witches in holy war'." San Francisco Examiner, April 28: 24.United Press International. 1984. "Guilty verdict in 'witch' murder." Petaluma Argus-Courier, June 5: 2.See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

Hey, weirdos. Before we unleash today's macabre mystery, we were wondering, have you ever heard of Wondery Plus? It's like a secret passage to an ad-free lair with early access to episodes. You can join Wondery Plus in the Wondery app or in Apple Podcasts or Spotify. You're listening to a morbid network podcast. Hey, weirdos. I'm Ash. And I'm Elena. And this is Morbid. This is Morbid. It's Morbid. I, wait, at the top of the show I have an apology. Whoa.

I never listen to Morbid, because I don't really enjoy hearing my own voice very much. But I listened to the intro of a couple episodes yesterday. The intros are my favorite part. Why the fuck can't I stop singing to you people? Oh, you love to sing. I do. But every intro lately is me singing horrifically.

And I'm like, we might lose listeners. Our downloads might be down. I was like, oh gosh, I'm going to get cited for this. I didn't even know that you did that much. I think there was three in a row where at first it was JLo, then it was, you got the baddest ideas. I won't sing it. See, here you go. I know, I can't help myself. I'm like a fucking theater kid. I think it's great. I hope that other people feel that because I was listening and I was like, oh no, I'm ostracizing my community. I think people like it. I hope so. Personally.

Oh, if not, take me away in a drone. Take me away. Yeah, what the fuck? Okay. So this is coming out in about six months. So hopefully, hopefully- For like a few weeks. By then. If we figured out this drone situation because you guys are in the future. So right now where we sit, we're in the thick of it. It's not even Christmas time yet. Right now. We're in the thick of it right now. It's December 13th at the moment.

We're in the thick of drones. It's Friday the 13th right now. It's Friday the 13th. Happy Friday the 13th from the past. And it's a wintery Friday the 13th. Something about that just gives me those, ooh. You know what other day it is today? What? Dorinda Medley's 60th birthday. Oh, well, my goodness. Happy birthday to the queen. What a day. Happy birthday to the queen. To the queen. But anyway, back to the drones. What's your theory? Give

me a theory. That's the thing. I don't have one. I have no idea what's going on. I think. And I think the government does know what's going on, but they're not telling us. Don't get the government involved here. And I just want to know why. I think it's people who are, I think it's aliens who have inhabited the earth. I think that would be like, I think that would be sick. Like I think that would be awesome. I don't know if that's it. Well, nobody knows. I think it's something much more sinister

by sinister and mundane. Like it's gonna be something that's much more like, oh, what's that? Like, you know, I don't think it's gonna be like, oh, fuck, it's aliens. Like, cause I think we'd all at this point in our lives, I think all of us would be like, welcome.

Welcome. Well, we already know they're in the ocean. Yeah. So I think everybody would be psyched about that. Like, I know I would. What do you guys think? Oh, I don't know. But I'm like, I don't know.

Do you think it's possibly like another country? I don't know. Like spying or something? Who the fuck knows? Literally nobody. Not even the FAA. I feel like somebody knows. There was an interview, I was just showing it to Elena

It was with like I think it's a New Jersey representative I forget his name, but he went to this meeting about it and he walked out of the meeting cuz he was like They don't he goes they don't know nothing. It's amateur hour. It's amateur hour. I was crying They have me drive here two hours and they just tell me they don't know what's going on It's like five hours. I love that man I too would be angry if I drove in New Jersey traffic to get to somewhere for them to say, we don't know what's going on. Well, now I'd be like, this could have been an email. Now everything could have been an email. God, people just

try to show their importance everywhere. But now they're in Massachusetts. I know. That's the thing. I'm like, well, hey, they spotted them in East Hampton last night, which I feel like is so like, it's, I feel like it could be aliens because remember that whole big UFO in Great Barrington? Yeah. You know what I mean? The whole big UFO. That whole big UFO thing. The uncovered bridge or the covered bridge. Yeah, the uncovered bridge. What is it? Is it covered? It's covered. It's covered. The covered bridge. Yeah. I've never been there. It freaks me out.

The uncovered bridge. That. I've never been there. It freaks me out. The uncovered bridge. That'd be a good book. It would be. We uncovered this bridge. The uncovered bridge. Like you discovered it.

Hey, workshop that. We'll float that around later. I might have just given you a good idea. You did. But yeah, there was a whole UFO incident. You are correct. And that- We should cover that.

Yeah. I know that would be a good one to cover for sure. I think that's on the docket somewhere. We love the Berks. The berserk shears of people. The berserk shears. Right back to Dorinda. I can make anything bravo coded. Look at that. We circled right back around. Anything. Yeah. You know, it's the new year where you are everybody. And I'm looking forward to it

personally. I've been looking forward to this new year for a long time. I think this is, my favorite number is five. It's got a five in it. I do love a new year with a five in it. And I just think it's going to be a great year. Lots of things are planned. Lots of exciting things. Lots of big changes.

Lots of big new things that you guys can look forward to, we can look forward to. Yeah. I'm psyched about it. I literally cannot wait. There's a lot of good books coming out. There is. Next year, like, um, Grady Hendricks has a new book coming out in the beginning of the year. I've got it on pre-order right now. Witchcraft for Wayward Girls. And it's big. Babes that got an arc. It's big. And it's real good. I know. You bitch. It's so good. I can't wait. It's so good. Chuck Wendig has a new book coming out in like April, I think.

The Staircase in the Woods. Love that. So fucking good, guys. That book that we just did for our book club with Sabrina and Corinne Wayward, you guys have to read that. So good. It's by, I think her name is Amelia, but it's with an E.

She's coming out with a new book and I am assuming it's probably going to come out in 2025. Sirens. Sirens. Let me see if there's a release date on it. I'm really excited for that. She said it's going to be like folklore-y almost. I love that. Like a folk horror situation like Sleuthoot is really, I love that. And guys, if you're feeling like, I'm telling you, if you get, if you, it's a good book will get you on that path

of just wanting to gobble up a million books. It really will. Sirens is expected to come out April 1st, 2025. Oh, so the beginning of the half of the year, like really has some, look at the cover, some bangers coming out. I love the cover. Yeah. I mean, let's go Amelia Hart. Yeah, Amelia Hart. Let's go. Sirens. Buy their books. Buy mine too. I mean, but you're in the red. Hey, 2025, you never know what could happen. You never know what couldirens. By their books. By mine too, while you're at it. I mean, Butcher and the Red.

Hey, 2025, you never know what could happen. You never know what could happen. You never know. Maybe another installment of Ren. You never know. Please? You don't know. I don't know.

You know. I have no idea. I don't even know what time is. What do you say it is? A flat circle. What does that mean? It's just like nothing. Like it just is in on itself.

Oh, I like that. Yeah. All right. Well, that's a lot of banter and I enjoyed it. Again, it's my favorite part of the episode. There you go. But I'm going to be talking to you guys today about something, a wild case. We briefly mentioned this case when we were doing crime countdown. It was like amongst one of the numbers as we were doing Crime Countdown, it was amongst one of the numbers as we were counting down. Michael and Susan Carson, the San Francisco witch killers. Fascinating case, simply because these two are characters. They're real people, obviously. It's a crazy set of just, I don't even know how to describe it. Even just that crime countdown little blur we got was like, I'm sorry, what?

When you just said, I don't even know how to describe it, it's indescribable who they are because they're like a mishmash of their own making. It's also a tragic case because a lot of young people who didn't need to lose their lives did. So let's get into it. On the afternoon of March 7th, 1981, San Francisco detectives were called to an apartment at 825 Schrader Street. This is so hard to say.

Schrader Street. Schrader. Oh, that is hard. Schrader Street. It's going from sh to str. Yeah, that's hard. But in the kitchen of the basement apartment, 23-year-old Karen Barnes was sprawled out on the floor. Her head was lying in a pool of blood and the rest of her body was wrapped in a heavy

blanket. Whoever had killed Karen had left her body there in the corner of the room stuffed between the counter and the stove. Ugh. Just so chilling. Yeah, like very careless. So upon his initial examination, the San Francisco coroner at the time, Dr. Boyd Stevens. Boyd! Boyd! Determined that Karen's skull had been crushed by repeated blows from a blunt instrument. She had also been stabbed 13 times to the left side of her face and her neck.

You know what, when you hear something like that, I was thinking about this the other day. I think a lot of times people become, I think the whole world is desensitized to so many things right now. Big time. That I think when you hear like hit repeatedly with a blunt object in the head and like stabbed 13 times, you're like, Whoa, that's crazy. Sit with it. Yeah.

Sit with it for a second. Think about what that entails. Move your arm. If you really sit there and think about what that entails, these kinds of things will fuck you up so much harder. And I know that's probably not what everybody wants, but that's a lot. Well, to understand the gravity of a situation like that, move your arm 13 times. Your arm's going to get tired. And imagine being on the receiving end of that. Exactly.

And then after you've already been struck in the head however many times. Exactly. Like it hit me with one of our recent cases that I was like really in my head going through how much time it takes and like what that would be like to go through. And it's like, you got to do that. It's overkill. Yeah. It's overkill.

It's absurd. But the coroner wouldn't know for sure until he completed the autopsy. But Dr. Stevens was fairly confident that the cause of death was the quote, moon-shaped cranial injury that had crushed Karen's brain. Based on the limited blood splatter on the wall though, and the fact that there was no blood on the bottom of Karen's feet, he theorized that she had been attacked in her sleep and was most likely already dead or dying when her killer started stabbing her. You hope that she was already dead just because to experience what she had already gone through and then to add 13 stabs to the face and neck on that? Too much. Based on the state of rigor mortis though

he did conclude that Karen's body had been lying there in the kitchen for about two days. Just all by herself. To Detective Carl Klotz, the entire scene felt very odd. It was cold in San Francisco that March, but the heat had been turned off. There was almost no furniture in this entire apartment. There was just some throw pillows and a pile of blankets on the floor. It seemed like the previous occupants had been squatting there, probably not renting. The detective also noted a lack of electrical appliances in the entire apartment. There were no lamps, no radios, no televisions, and the entire apartment seemed to be illuminated by just a vote of candles. So this is like a creepy scene. But most unusual of all was the decor.

Other than the obvious odors that accompany a dead body, there was a heavy odor of incense hanging in the air, and the only decor that the detective noticed was a large amount of strange crayon drawings on the wall. Oh, on the walls. Excuse me. Oh, I hate this. He said they looked like they had been created by a seven year old kid. And on one of the drawings, detective Klotz noticed a signature that read only Susan in

all capital letters. I hate this. Yeah. And they were not drawn by a seven year old to everybody. In another room, investigators found Karen's purse, which contained her identification, but not much else. In fact, the entire apartment was missing anything resembling evidence other than Karen's body in the corner. It looked like somebody had thoroughly cleaned and emptied the apartment before police even got there. So speaking with the landlord, Detective Klotz learned that the apartment was actually in the process of being renovated. So that was why there was like a lack

of objects and any kind of lived in feeling. But unfortunately, the landlord did not know a lot about Karen Barnes. She had moved in a few months earlier. He said she spoke with what he thought was a Southern accent. Maybe she was from Georgia, he presumed. When she moved in, Karen told the landlord that it was, quote, against her religion to handle money, and that the welfare department would handle her affairs. Interesting. Yes. The statements obviously seemed a little strange. Like, that's not something you're going to run into every single day. But this was San Francisco. It's like during the time where hippies are like, you know, changing shit and whatever. And you're not going to like question something like that. You're like, okay.

And also as a landlord, I'm sure you're like, as long as I get paid, I don't care who gets me the money. Yeah, you're like, sure, whatever. So whatever. Otherwise, the landlord said that Karen had been a mostly responsible tenant in the short time that she lived there. But he did say one time recently he saw quote, and this is a quote, two trampy looking hippies sneak out of the apartment in the early morning. But he said he didn't get a good look at either of them. And he wasn't really able to recall anything distinct about either of them. Interesante. Now, nobody in the building had heard or seen anything strange coming from Karen's apartment in the last few days. So Detective Klotz and the other homicide detectives started the slow and very painstaking process of trying

to reconstruct Karen's history and current lifestyle from what they could deduce from friends and acquaintances. Most of those friends and acquaintances interviewed early on in the investigation didn't have much to offer to investigators, but eventually Detective Klotz did find his way to Randy Jacobson and Marcia Moskow, and they were a couple that Karen had been staying with just before she moved into that apartment where she was found. According to Randy and Marcia, in the weeks before she moved into her new apartment, Karen had been spending a lot of time with a couple that they only knew as Michael and Susan. Randy and Marcia said the couple were transients. They were traveling up and down the California coast. They were selling weed and they grew that weed in Humboldt County, which I think was in your last case.

Yeah, it was. Yeah, lots of weird California names. Susan and Michael had described themselves as Muslims. Spoiler alert, they're not. Yeah. Like they cherry picked certain things from different religions and like you said, bastardized them.

Made their own really like twisted religion. Yeah. But according to Marsha, anytime they stayed at Randy and Marsha's apartment. Apportment. Apportment. Quote, the stringy haired woman spent half her time in the closet talking to Allah

or meditating in the bathtub with her husband. Interesting. So they're strange characters. Yeah. She also said that Susan and Michael explicitly rejected more modern aspects of society, like drivers licenses, social security cards, and even electricity. And they spent probably 99% of their time talking about just a few days later, it turned out that Karen's landlord had been right. She was from Georgia.

And according to her mother, after graduating high school just a few years earlier, Karen sold her car and she and her friend Debbie headed out to California. She had dreams of becoming an actress. Of course. Which just ruins you. Yeah. She spent a few unproductive months in LA and then she made her way to Santa Barbara to find, she found a job as a housekeeper. And Barbara told Detective Klotz that Karen was just fine

in Santa Barbara. She said she had a steady job, she was taking acting lessons, she even started dating this nice guy. But unfortunately, all of that fell to the wayside when a friend talked her into moving to San Francisco with them. According to Barbara, moving to San Francisco was the beginning of her daughter's downfall. Oh, that makes me sad that she was doing well in Santa Barbara. Yeah, like figuring it out, making moves to becoming an actress. Yeah. Now, in San Francisco, she found the exciting life that she had probably hoped to find in

Hollywood. But instead of actors and celebrities, her new life was populated by hippies and drifters, people who seemed to be happy living on the fringes of society. Yeah. Just a few months after moving up north, Karen was hitchhiking when the driver of a truck that she was riding in fell asleep at the wheel. So he, the truck like ran off the road essentially.

And she was thrown from the cab of the truck. She broke her pelvis in the process, which sucks. truck like ran off the road essentially and ultimately just not a transition that she was going to make long-term. So as soon as she was well enough to get back on her feet, she made her way back to San Francisco. Throughout the rest of 1980, Barbara's communication with Karen was pretty sporadic. And even when Karen did call, there was a chance that she would be high or drunk, like she was partying a lot. And their conversation would quickly devolve into an argument, probably from Barbara's concern. Yeah. So that being the case, Barbara was hopeful when Karen called in early January 1981 to tell her that she decided to get her life together and that she found this new apartment

that she was planning to share with a young couple. Barbara was like, okay, like that sounds nice. Yeah. And Karen told her mother that her new roommate, Susan and Michael Carson were very religious, but aside from that, she didn't offer any more information. But her mom is hearing this news. I mean, and she's used to hearing from Karen when she's under the influence of something. Yeah. And now she says she's got this new apartment. She's met this couple. They're religious. She's probably like, okay, like you're slowing down. But the last time Barbara talked to her daughter was on Valentine's Day,

which also happened to be Karen's birthday. And by then, whatever hope or optimism Barbara had sensed in Karen's voice the last time they talked was completely gone. She recalled Karen telling her, mama, this is haunting. She said, mama, I have this feeling I won't ever live to see 30.

I just have a funny feeling. And when I have feelings like this, they usually come true. I can't imagine being a mother and hearing your child say that to you. No. Like I don't know how you recover. And just like the fact that she knew that and like somewhere in her body and mind. She just knew. Like that's disturbing. Yeah. This show is sponsored by BetterHelp. You guys, life is not about resolutions that just fade away by February. It's about picking up that pen and becoming the author of your own life. And you can think of therapy as your editorial partner, helping you write new chapters and create the meaningful story that you deserve to live. I am absolutely a huge fan of therapy. I think it's great when you wanna start working

on yourself, but it's even better when you wanna continue to build upon the work that you've already done. I have benefited so greatly from therapy in 2024, and I have a lot more work to do in 2025 than I'm excited to do. And if you're thinking about starting therapy, BetterHelp is a great place to start. Because BetterHelp is fully online, making therapy affordable and convenient, they have served over 5 million people worldwide. You can access a diverse network of more than

30,000 credentialed therapists with a wide range of specialties. And you can easily switch therapists anytime at no extra cost. It's taken me a few times to get the right therapist, and once you get it right, you will absolutely know. Write your story with BetterHelp. Visit BetterHelp.com slash morbid today to get 10% off your first month. That's BetterHelp H-E-L-P dot com slash morbid. If you're like me, you know that nothing is more important than protecting your loved ones from harm.

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I'll take care of you. Yeah. But Karen said no. She said she wanted to stick it out in San Francisco for just a few more months to see if she could turn things around for herself. No. According to Barbara, she was having a hard time hearing her daughter during that last phone call because there was a lot of background noise going on wherever she was calling from. And eventually Barbara was like, where are you?

And Karen said she was in a payphone booth at the back of the restaurant and said, don't worry, they can't find me back here. Okay, that would fuck me up. The statement was confusing, first of all, and obviously alarming. But when Barbara asked what the fuck she meant by that, Karen just quickly changed the subject. And very shortly after that, they said goodbye and ended the call. That's so chilling. That's the last time she ever spoke to her. She tells you she doesn't think she's going to live to see 30 and that whoever can't find her where she is. Yeah, that's really concerning. So to Detective Klotz, the story was a pretty familiar one. Small town kid moves to California, has got these dreams of making it really big, find out that things are a lot harder than they anticipated. He'd heard that before.

Yeah. But the call with Karen's mom had not been entirely unproductive. He did manage to get the names of Karen's mysterious roommates, Michael and Susan Carson. He had a last name now. So the more that he and his partner asked around, the more they discovered just how many people disliked Karen's roommates. Karen's friend Katie Hudson told investigators, I can't stand to be in the same room with that woman. Susan embodied evil. Oh, fuck her. Yeah. And Katie's boyfriend, Greg Brewster, kind of saw Susan and Michael in a slightly more sympathetic light. He agreed they were very strange characters, but he said he also found them interesting. Huh. According to

weird to hear someone be like, she's the embodiment of evil. And then somebody's just like, I don't know, they're interesting. And especially his girlfriend says they're evil. And he's like, they're interesting. They're interesting, but they're weird. Yeah. Yeah. According to Greg, Michael Carson

had written a manuscript titled The Way, which he wanted to have published eventually. The book was like sort of an autobiography. It detailed how he and Susan had met in Arizona in 1977. And then they embarked on this back-tripping backpacking trip to Europe. Back-tripping. Back-tripping. They probably were back-tripping.

They 100% were. Because yeah, they were. They went back-tripping. I was just about to say it again. Because that's what they were doing. They went back-tripping to Europe and they became drug smugglers there. Of course. When they came back to the US, Susan and Michael started traveling a circuit between California and Arizona trafficking drugs and promoting, I guess what you could call, I mean a very bizarre blend of mysticism and a very poorly informed understanding of Islam.

Like I said earlier, they picked little bits of Islam, but even the parts that they picked, they were not. Yeah, they twisted them. It wasn't actual, I don't know if it's tenants of Islam. Yeah, honestly, it sounds to me like when people will take little bits of like Christianity and like all these other kind of like Catholicisms and you know all that kind of stuff and pull little pieces from it and sometimes they pull the worst pieces from them and then twist them to be even worse. Yeah. And then make their own little like shit religion. Ball of shit religion. Yeah. It's

like and it sounds like that's what they were doing. It's very culty you know. It's very culty. It has cult vibes. So through more interviews with Karen's friends and her acquaintances, a picture of Michael and Susan Carson started to emerge. Nobody seemed to know anything about their backgrounds other than the fact that they came from Arizona, but everybody got the sense that they both seemed to be suffering from some kind of mental illness. Yeah, it certainly sounds that way.

Yeah, they were not all there. To Karen's friend Lillian, a registered nurse, Michael and Susan, she said seemed like classic schizophrenics, and that the moment she met them, she got the feeling they were dangerous. Oh, wow. Yeah. That's scary. Yeah. I can understand why people would get that feeling. And obviously like, you don't

want to judge a book by its cover, but you see them. Sometimes you got to, man. I love book covers. I do judge a book by its cover to be honest. I'm just going to be real with you. You got a good cover, I'm going to buy it. And that's that you don't make your full judgment. Yes. Don't, don't make your like end sent judgment and

sentencing on a cover. Right. But you can take some, some little bits and pieces, gather some evidence from the cover. And it's also like a gut instinct. Yeah, you can call that. Sometimes you see someone and regardless of what they look like, you get a feeling from them.

Exactly. Looking at the two of them, you get a feeling from them that they do embody evil. Yeah. You looking? I am. I get a feeling. Evil. I got a feeling. Could be bunnies. It's yeah. Yeah. It's that's the thing. Like, there's something in the eyes. The problem, there's nothing in the eyes, actually. That's the problem. Nailed it. Thank you. Nailed it. Yes. Yes. So for the most part, it seemed that the only reason anybody even tolerated Susan and Michael's presence was because they always had quote unquote, good drugs. Oh, yeah. Okay. Good reason to be friends with people. Yeah. But by early 1981, even that wasn't enough.

The good drugs would not suffice. According to Marscia Moskow, Karen's former roommate there, when she and her partner Randy came home from a vacation to Mexico, they just found Michael and Susan squatting in their apartment. Can you fucking imagine if you go on a vacation with your mans and you come back home and your old roommate's friends are squatting in your fucking place?

No, I cannot. Also, neither of them seemed embarrassed or guilty old roommates, friends are squatting in your fucking place. No, I cannot. Also, neither of them seemed embarrassed or guilty at all about having taken full advantage of Randy and Marcia. Awesome. On the contrary, even after Randy and Marcia came back from Mexico, Michael and Susan were like, yeah, we are not gonna leave.

We're just here. We live here. We're just here, that's a no for me. And it's not like they were just regular, well, first of all, they weren't roommates. They were squatters, but they weren't just regular squatters, I guess. They were worse because their constant presence became a very serious source of stress for Marsha in particular. I would lose my mind.

They would just endlessly rant about the coming apocalypse all the time. And she was like, I can't handle this. We got gotta go. LS. That's really inconvenient and also very existential dread, dready. KS. Yes. I would cry a lot. And this was like before people went to therapy. So can you even imagine? I'm going to therapy about the end of the world right now. I can't imagine not having that at my fingertips. Even though there were people who were like, most people were just put off by Susan and Michael Carson. There were some people within their social circle who had actually

had very intense confrontations with them. That's not shocking to me at all. Yeah, no, neither. When Karen's friend Sybil learned of her murder, her first response was, I'll bet Susan and Michael did it. If you have anyone in your social circle that you'd be like, oh yeah, they definitely did it. My goodness. Yeah. Like you got to rethink that social circle that you'd be like, oh yeah, they definitely did it. My goodness. Yeah. Like you got to rethink that social circle. Yeah. Move away from that social circle.

Move away from it. Yeah. According to Sybil, she said Michael bore a strong resemblance to Charles Manson in both appearance and personality. Oh, I thought you were going to just say like, she was like, he looks like Charles Manson, so he probably did it. I was like, that's not super fair. No, that's not super fair.

She said he looks like him and he acts like him. But personality, yeah. So that's scary. He was very intense, very distant, and it was in a way that made her feel deeply uncomfortable. But it was actually Susan who she really disliked. That seems to be a pattern here. It sure does. One night when they were all hanging out at a friend's apartment, Susan just out of nowhere accused Sybil of being a quote, witch consorting with the devil.

And she screamed at her, throw your necromancer book away, you're trying to open the gates of hell. And she didn't yell back at her. Hell yeah. I think she said. Let's party. I think she said, what? Hello?

Like imagine. Who? Out of nowhere, someone's just like, which your which consorting with the devil. Throw your necromancer book away. I would literally, you're trying to open the gates of hell. I'd be like, please elaborate. Like what made you think that about me? Tell me, is that my aura? Oh my God. Is that my aura? Is that like what you first thought? But genuinely like, that was like an unserious way of looking at it. In reality, what the fuck? That's terrifying. I would cry.

Me, I would cry. Because this isn't like somebody being funny and being like, I think you're a witch trying to consort with the devil. She's like, I think you're a witch trying to consort with the devil and you should die. And I want to do something about it. Yeah, exactly. But a few weeks before the murder, Sybil could clearly see that Susan and Michael's influence on Karen was like, you know, growing. Growing, exactly. Karen came to Sybil's apartment and declared emphatically that she had found the

Lord and she insisted that Sybil abandon her quote unquote witchcraft and magic or she would be quote condemned to hell. Sibyl was like, okay. Oh boy. This is when it gets gnarly. Exactly. Keep it to yourself. Keep it to yourself. Karen had always seemed pretty naive and innocent to Sibyl and probably more than a little too trusting. So when she recognized that Karen had become essentially indoctrinated by Michael and Susan, she decided to keep her distance from all three of them.

She closed that social circle. Yeah, because honestly, it's like, what do you do? I don't know. When it gets to that point, it's like, it's really hard to pull someone back out of that. Well, and you just have to protect yourself. Yeah. Now, by all accounts, Karen Barnes was exactly the sweet, naive young woman that everybody said she was. That makes me sad. I know. And as far as Detective Klotz could tell, it was most likely that naiveté that got her into trouble, unfortunately.

That's even worse that they prey on people like that. Yeah. And I don't even like to say naiveté. Which cult leaders do. Just trust. She's trusting. Yeah. According to one friend, Karen always went for the underdog. And as soon as she met Susan and Michael Carson, she was mesmerized and just wanted to help them. That's all she wanted to do. And they have like cult leader vibes.

So it's like that. And that's what they do. They prey on people who want to help other people or vulnerable in some way. They hunt them down. Exactly. Within a few days of the murder, Susan and Michael Carson jumped to the top of the suspect list, at least as far as Detective Klotz was concerned. jumped to the top of the suspect list, at least as far as Detective Klotz was concerned. But the problem was, in that kind of culture that really existed on the fringes,

and, you know, was probably pretty resistant to cooperating with the police, finding leads and evidence felt increasingly impossible. Oh, yeah. No one's gonna talk. That's the thing, not everybody wanted to talk. Most of Karen's friends felt like it was entirely possible that the couple had something to do with her death, but none of them even knew their last names, much less where the hell they were. And Detective Klotz and his partner would end up spending more than a year chasing leads that inevitably just went

nowhere. As they and the other investigators on Karen's case searched San Francisco for their suspects, Susan and Michael Carson were already hundreds of miles away. They had hitchhiked north through California and into Oregon. I said it correctly. The Oregon Trail, you mean? No, it's the Oregon Trail. Oregon Trail. I can't believe it. I can't either. I refuse. I refuse. I love you guys. I refuse. In their hitchhiking travels through Lake Creek, Oregon, they met a couple who told them about this abandoned cabin in this very remote section of the Cascade Mountains. They said you could definitely stay there for a while, and you could avoid most, if not all, of society. Whoa. Where is that place? Can you give me the coordinates?

After being pointed towards an old logging trail that led into the mountains, they hiked into the forest and eventually found said cabin. Which I don't really know if you want to go to there because it wasn't much more than a one room shack and they said it probably would have been blown over at the slightest wind. Yeah, it sounds a little bit like the Evil Dead. So I'm going to stay away from that. Little too remote for me. Despite the shitty accommodations, they actually stayed at that cabin in the Cascades for over a year, surviving on whatever they could grow from their garden, their vegetable garden, and whatever food they could scrounge from their occasional trips into town.

During this period, and obviously I think because they were so isolated, their paranoia and their bizarre belief system just continued to grow. Because think about it, they are in an echo chamber of their own twisted beliefs, just being echoed back at them over and over and over. And intensified. I'm sure they're trying to one up each other with their- Yeah, no counteracting ideas either. It's all the same. Like, let's just keep feeding it. It's yes and.

Yes. It's their scary improv. Absolutely. Yeah. And the other thing is they were emboldened by the fact that so far they had gotten away with murder. Yep. That's always the case. All throughout the year, Michael kept an eye on the regional newspapers. Certain they would be named as suspects in Karen's death, but he never saw the slightest hint that the police were searching for them. And even on his occasional trips back to Los Angeles or San Francisco, where he was sure he'd hear something,

seemed like nobody suspected either him or Susan as the killers. So in the winter of 1981 after an altercation with a couple who lived in a cabin further down the mountain who Susan had accused of worshipping Satan. That seems to be her thing. Yeah, it's just kind of her vibe. It's kind of her vibe. It's like what she does. Michael and Susan decided, you know, maybe it was time for them to move on from this cabin. Since they'd been vigilant about checking the papers throughout the year, they were again, very confident that they weren't suspects in Karen's murder. So they found no reason why they shouldn't return to California, or at least move around

the Pacific Northwest freely. Eventually, Michael and Susan made their way to Alder Point, which is a tiny town in Northern California. The population is less than 100. Whoa. Yeah, or at least it was at the time. That's interesting. To go to a place like that.

Yeah. Where you're not, you're going to stick out. Like they know everybody there probably. I know. Interesting choice. But in the past, Alder Point had been known as a stop along the Northwestern Pacific Railroad. But by the 1970s, any industry that had been there was long gone. And all that was really left was a few weed farms deep in the woods.

So I think the thing that they figured, I mean, weed is illegal at the time. Nobody's really going to bother anybody around there. Once there, Michael and Susan found work on a marijuana farm. And they spent their days harvesting, tending to the crops, hauling the plants back to the farmhouse to be processed. As enthusiasts of drug culture, the work was satisfying for them. They both stayed happily on the farm for months. In fact, they probably would have stayed there forever if it hadn't been for Clark Stevens. Oh man. Clark Stevens was a friend of one of the farm workers who would periodically come from

San Diego to Alder Point to transport the drugs. He actually had been arrested in LA and was bailed out by the farm's owner John Walker and in exchange Stephen signed over the title to his truck to Walker and Walker brought him on as an informal partner in the farm's business. As far as Susan and Michael could tell, Clark was just another Southern California dude who came north to cash in on the increasingly lucrative pot farms in Humboldt County, and they fucking hated him. From the moment they met, Clark, Susan, and Michael had been at odds over everything, And even the most casual

conversations just escalated into arguments. Have you ever met someone like that, that you just fucking hate each other immediately? Yes. Me too. Yeah. As tensions on the farm continued to escalate, Susan became convinced that Clark Stevens was a demon. And I know that sounds funny. No. She genuinely thought he was a demon. Like, and I know that sounds funny. No, like- She genuinely thought he was a demon.

Because this is like religious mania kind of situation. No, it is. Like, this is not, like, I think, like, I've thought someone's a demon before in a funny way. Totally. Like, they're a demon, they say demonic things, they're the worst. Yeah. This is like, I think there's a demon here and I need to eradicate, which is not good. Exactly. It's sad because obviously there's some kind of unchecked mental illness there.

Absolutely. But it's like you wish that there was people around her that were like, hey, or people around them that were like, hey, you need help. Yeah. And I'm sure there were, but they just ignored it. So things finally came to a head in early May of 1982, when Clark came back to the farm after being thrown off the property just a few days earlier. He was thrown off the property for assaulting his ex-girlfriend, which is not great. But John Walker, the farm's owner, had gotten into town that morning, which meant that Michael and Susan were watching over the farm in case of any unwanted visitors. At first, when Clark got there, Michael said he tried to resolve the situation calmly, telling Stevens that he wasn't welcome

on the farm anymore. But when Stevens wouldn't leave, he said things escalated, and of course, after some strong encouragement from Susan, Michael drew a.38 caliber pistol from his waistband and pulled the trigger. But the gun failed to fire. Now aware that he was in serious danger, Clark Stevens ran at Michael to try to probably disarm him. But Michael fired a second time and sent the bullet through Clark's lower jaw. So he immediately fell to the ground. And with Clark on the ground, Michael approached and shot him a second time in the torso, and then fired a third time hitting Clark in the head just behind the ear. Later, Michael and Susan would claim that they killed Clark Stevens because

he was a quote demon and a quote petty witch who wanted to live off of Susan's life. This is fucked up. No, it's deeply disturbing. But they acted quickly to cover up the murder. They buried Stephen's body in a pile of chicken manure. See, and this is where things like that's this is where like, you know, insanity, please and all that stuff are so difficult and so complex and so layered. Because like you think of we shot him because I was convinced he was a demon. And that he was a petty witch who wanted to live off of Susan's life. You look at that and you go, okay, something's really off here. And these are two literally sick people. And this isn't like they just said that to get some kind of insanity.

Like they've been thinking it for a long time. They just said that all along the way. But then you look at people covering up what they've done and you say, well, then you know what you've done. And then when you look at like chicken manure being what they chose, I'm like, you chose that. You chose manure for a reason. And to me, that's like, evil. You're evil. You just happen to also have a mental illness. Yes. You know, yeah, it's crazy. Well, then they went even further. They set fire to the pile to try to destroy the body. And then they just went back to the house, went back to the farmhouse, and they found

that several of Clark Stevens' friends from LA had arrived and were looking for drugs. So they told the group that he was out and he wouldn't be back until later, which again, you know, you're covering up for your shit. But the group decided to stay and wait it out. ["Jingle Bells"] There are so many extra fees that you have to pay in life. Like every time I take a flight somewhere, I feel like there's like 400 fees that pop up. When we're trying to make progress,

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Boosts are available to eligible Chime members enrolled in SpotMe and are subject to monthly limits. Timing depends on submission of payment vial. Fees apply at out of network ATMs. Behind the closed doors of government offices and military compounds, there are hidden stories and buried secrets from the darkest corners of history. From covert experiments pushing the boundaries of science to operations so secretive they were barely whispered about. Each week, on redacted, declassified mysteries, we pull back the curtain on these hidden histories. 100% true and verifiable stories that expose the shadowy underbelly of power. Consider Operation Paperclip, where former Nazi scientists were brought to America after World War II.

Not as prisoners, but as assets to advance U.S. intelligence during the Cold War. These aren't just old conspiracy theories. They're thoroughly investigated accounts that reveal the uncomfortable truths still shaping our world today. The stories are real. The secrets are shocking. Follow redacted, declassified mysteries with me, Luke Lamanna on the Wondery app or wherever you get your podcasts. To listen ad free, join Wondery Plus in the Wondery app. So days passed with no sign of Clark causing even John Walker, who was the one who threw him out days earlier to become suspicious. Clark's truck was still parked at the house and it had a dead battery because,

uh, that was why Susan and Michael didn't move it. It had a dead battery. And it seemed out of character for him to just disappear on foot. So John Walker sitting there like, what the fuck is going on? And in the days that followed, Michael and Susan just acted like nothing had happened. And they downplayed Clark's disappearance as typical for a quote unquote junkie. Yeah, so this is if they really thought he was a demon, they would be like, we killed a demon. Exactly. Like they wouldn't be trying to cover this up because they did something good.

They killed a demon. Exactly. So the only thing they did have going for them was that nobody wanted to draw attention to the authorities. So reporting his disappearance to the police was out of the question. That's crazy. Yeah. Still the idea of going to the police though had been mentioned,

and it was enough to make Michael start getting paranoid. So about a week after Clark Stevens murder, Susan and Michael told John Walker that they decided to move on and just gave him some story about needing to make more money. Damn. So they got the hell out of there. They got the hell out of Dodge. They went back to Oregon where they stayed in a cave for a few days. Jesus. A cave before deciding that they probably needed a better plan. Eventually they decided that Michael should head to LA and assuming that there was no sign

the police were looking for them, they would return to the city. So Michael made it to LA in late May and was almost immediately picked up by the police, but just for hitchhiking. Ah. The officer who stopped him, patting him down for weapons. Uh, but whether because of his inexperience or discomfort,

he didn't bother patting down the area near Michael's stomach and groin and didn't find that Michael was carrying a 38 caliber pistol in his waistband. Babe, where do you usually keep a weapon like that? And also like in your waistband full blown officer and you, you took the time to pat him down for weapons, but missed a fucking 38 caliber pistol as waistband of all places. Hello? Like come on. Still, Michael assumed that they were picking him up for Clark or Karen's murder.

And this was the end for him. But he was shocked when a few minutes later, the officer let him go. It turned out that the police were searching for a rape suspect who matched Michael's general description. But when it turned out to not be him, they just let him go without any further questions. So to Michael, the fact that he had not been arrested or even recognized when he was picked up by the police

was thanks to some kind of divine intervention. And he took it as a sign that he and Susan were safe to start moving back towards Southern California again. But the timing, you know, couldn't have been any more perfect. As the couple got back on the road, John Walker's dog started digging through a pile of ash and manure on the farm. Oh, damn. And eventually unearthed a scorched human skull, which he brought back to the house for Walker to discover. Imagine your dog just bringing you a scorched human skull.

No. That would be... Life changing. Yeah, you don't come back from that. You would never be the same, ever. No. And by that point, there were two predominant theories about Clark's death. Either John Walker had killed him or Michael Carson had done it. And given that the body was

found on his property, John Walker thought there was a pretty good chance that he would be the one to take the fall for the murder if he tried to cover it up. So despite the risk to his operation, because remember he is operating a weed farm, which is illegal, still he reported the discovery to the police. So he did the right thing. Damn. The fire had completely devastated Clark Stevens' remains. But remarkably, his wallet somehow survived the fire. And that allowed investigators to identify him

without much trouble. Wow. Yeah. Walker told the detectives everything he knew about Stevens, and more importantly, everything he knew about the couple he suspected of killing him, Michael and Susan. According to Walker, the couple was strange and everybody on the farm usually just referred to them as the anarchists. The anarchists.

And that was because they were constantly quoting from the Anarchist Cookbook, which is a 1971 manifesto that included instructions for making bombs and other weapons of guerrilla warfare. Wow, okay. Yeah, just walking around a peaceful farm quoting that. Like the murder of Karen Barnes, Clark Stevens' murder quickly turned into an investigative headache. Not only was this victim an off-the-grid kind of guy, but the suspects were equally and

frustratingly mysterious. The other thing working against investigators was the fact that in a part of Humboldt County known almost exclusively for its marijuana industry, finding reliable witnesses who were actually willing to talk to the police was essentially impossible. So in almost no time at all, the investigation into Clark's murder went cold, and it would still be several more months before the case broke open. Damn. So now we have two murders.

Yeah. Now when investigators in Humboldt County were finally able to search Michael and Susan's camper van on the farm, they made several surprising discoveries that pretty much confirmed what they had already learned about the couple. Among other things, detectives found a box of 38 caliber ammunition, which was the caliber again used in Clark Stevens murder. They found a driver's license for a man named Richard Arata, which turned out to have been stolen the previous year. Awesome. A copy of Michael's manifesto, which was titled Cry for War.

Oh. Yeah. As far as the investigators could tell, the manuscript was really not much more than ramblings of a very disturbed mind. Not shocked. But it also included a number of very alarming comments, including labeling high profile people like President Ronald Reagan, Vice President Bush, and California Governor Jerry Brown as targets who quote, must be eliminated because they are witches. Whoa. Yeah. In the days that followed the discovery of Clark Stevens body, investigators in Northern and Southern California had been in contact and

had strong reason to believe that the couple suspected in the Stevens murder weren't just suspects in the Barnes murder, had also had a handful of run-ins with the law in the past two years. But the problem was at that point, Michael and Susan were off to the wind again. They're just off. And just nobody knows where the fuck they are.

Yeah, they're on the Yim. Michael and Susan spent months just camping and hiking throughout Northern and Central California. They just retreated deeper and deeper into that shared psychosis and their delusions were spinning wildly out of control. That's so scary. It's so like yucky to think about. Like think about the stress, the anxiety, the paranoia, the hate, the smell. Like all of that just like makes my like, stresses my nervous system out to think about.

Yeah. The lack of showering. All of it. The lack of anything good at All of it. The lack of common sense. Good. Logic. Anything. Love, compassion, empathy. Anything good. Humanity. Any of that. All those adjectives. Yeah. At some point also, Susan received what she believed was a message from Allah, she said, commanding them to go to Texas to continue their war against demonic forces. Okay. So in late fall of 1982, they started heading south to do just that. They reached Bakersfield, California on January 11th, 1983, where they were able to flag down a passing truck

driver who actually stopped to give them a ride. The driver introduced himself as John Hellyer and asked whether they had a joint, which they did. What does that say? Cash, ass, or grass? Oh yeah. They had grass. They had grass. They had grass. So later during their trial, Michael and Susan would claim that John, the driver of this truck, had attempted to sexually assault Susan and that Michael killed him in defense of his common law wife. Incorrect.

No. And really cool of you to try to sully that man's name in death. Yeah. Especially when you hear more about this man and what he was willing to do for them, like you guys can go fuck yourselves. Because before that, Susan would tell everyone that she immediately recognized John as a powerful witch and somebody who needed to be eliminated. They are meeting so many powerful witches. It's crazy. Yeah. Powerful witches everywhere. A few years later, they would also make a similar

claim telling a reporter that they, quote, plotted the death of Hellier because he was a witch, Triple Scorpio, who was making sexual advances toward Susan Carson punishable by death under their faith. Whoa, what does the Triple Scorpio of it all have to do with that? Not sure. Poor Scorpio. Scorpio is going to bad rep. I was just going to say, like, poor triple Scorpio is out there. I know. Scorpio is in general. It's such a bad rep. Yeah. Scorpio is out there. This one's for you. I'm pouring a fake thing out. Me too. I love Scorpios.

Anyway, Michael and Susan changed their story so many times that most of the time to include their weird ideology. So it's impossible to know what really happened next. But what is known is that as the sun started to set over Bakersfield, John generously allowed them to stay at his house until the next morning rather than send them back out on the highway to keep hitchhiking. He was like, you know what, like it's the middle of the night, like why don't you just crash here at my fucking home. Yeah. What pieces of shit these guys are.

And the next morning he even offered to drive them back to the main road where they would have been more than likely to catch another ride. He was like, let me get you further out so that you can actually keep going. Like he's just helping them out. As they drove, Michael sat anxiously between John and Susan in the cab of the truck, just waiting for the right moment to pull out his gun. Because the previous evening, as they just laid next to each other being fucking disgusting, Susan made it very clear to Michael that John was a demon and a very powerful witch and that they needed to eliminate him. So wait, he's a demon and a witch? Both. Those are not two separate

entities? No, they're different. They're the same? Demon, witch, triple Scorpio, three different things. All the same thing. Oh, I thought it was, it seems to her like it's all the same thing. It's one guy. It's like, they're even scarier if they're all three. Wow. You know? Who would have known?

I think. I thought demons and witches were separate. And I didn't even put Scorpios into the equation. Well, silly mistake you made. I know, I'm crazy. Silly mistake. So, the time finally arrived as far as Susan was concerned. They needed to do it that night. Yeah.

But Michael was reluctant to do it right then. Since they're staying in his home. Yeah, exactly. I guess he just didn't want to murder a man in his own home. But the next morning when John started to slow down as they approached a roadside fruit stand, Michael finally produced the.38 pistol and pointed it right at John. After a few seconds of confusion, John slammed on the brakes and turned off the ignition and jumped out of the truck to run. But Michael was fast behind him and once outside they both started fighting in the grass as Michael was just trying to aim the pistol.

So just like rolling around in the grass and John's trying to fight him off. As they were just wrestling on the ground, Helier spotted the guy operating the fruit stand and he yelled to the kid for help, but the teenager just stood there and stared at them and all. SIDNEY Oh, come on. MADDIE It's like, I understand being scared in that situation, but like, you gotta do something to help here. SIDNEY Anything. I don't know what. Run the opposite way for help.

Yeah, do literally anything. Now uncertain that he could overpower John himself, Michael yelled to Susan for help, asking her to stab him. My God. And Susan ran over and did her best to, but since they were moving so quickly and sharply, she wouldn't have been able to stab John without potentially stabbing Michael. So instead she tried to stick her finger in John's eye to blind him.

But she unintentionally ended up jamming her finger into his mouth, which he bit down super hard on and nearly severed her stupid finger. Hell yeah. Yeah. After losing control of the gun, John managed to push Michael off of him and ran to the truck to grab his toolbox,

probably trying to find something to defend himself. But as soon as he reached the toolbox, Michael fired a shot. The bullet grazed John's head and he dropped his toolbox. In an attempt to flee altogether, he ran around the side of the truck and unexpectedly ran right into Susan, who knocked him to the ground. And he was just laying helpless in the grass at that point. Michael approached and shot him twice in the head. Nicole Zilberman That's awful. Nicole Zilberman Yeah. And he just, he was so desperate fighting for his life.

Nicole Zilberman And imagine like helping these people. Nicole Zilberman All you did was help them. Nicole Zilberman Yeah. And that's what happens. Nicole Zilberman And went out of his way to help them. Nicole Zilberman Like that's crazy. Nicole Zilberman So with John Hell, you're now dead. The couple started walking back to help them. LS. That's crazy. KS. So with John Hellyer now dead, the couple started walking back to the truck, and that's when they spotted a car slow down, which the car actually came to a full stop to investigate. Somebody in the passenger seat reached down and grabbed the toolbox off the ground, and

then the car sped away. The incident reminded Susan and Michael that not only had their crime been witnessed by that teenager at the fruit stand, but also by the driver of the car who stopped to pick up the toolbox. And now it was only a matter of time before somebody called the police. Unbeknownst to them, somebody already had. While John was trying to flee the situation, a delivery driver passed the scene and witnessed Michael point the gun and shoot Hellyer in the head. Wow. Michael and Susan had not made it more than a few miles in Hellyer's truck when three Helzberg police patrol cars caught up with them on Highway 101 after hearing an all

points bulletin that was put out by the Sonoma County Sheriff's Department. Susan and Michael led them on a wild high-speed chase. It changed directions up and down Sonoma and Napa counties. And in time, the Healdsburg officers were joined by officers from the Calistoga, I think it is, and St. Helena Police Departments, as well as officers from the California Highway Patrol. During the chase, one of the officers

actually crashed his patrol car. And luckily, the two officers were fortunately uninjured, but it just shows you how insane this was. Yeah. After 45 minutes of very dangerous pursuit, Michael pulled the truck off Highway 29 and actually lost control of the wheel, so they crashed into a ditch.

Damn. Which is where they belong. I was just gonna say, get comfy. But they jumped from the vehicle, exchanged gunfire with the pursuing officers, and then ran off into a nearby vineyard. Jesus. It's insane. Holy shit.

Yeah. Napa County Sheriff's deputies eventually caught up with them. It literally took a few minutes. And that was as they were trying to cross a shallow river. And finally, both of them were taken into custody with no further incident. Wow. Can you imagine? Like, you just go to work one day and you're like, oh, it's like a Tuesday. Yeah. It might be a crazy day. You never know, obviously, as a police officer, what's going to happen. I can't imagine that you wake up just thinking this is going to happen, anticipating

this. This bat shit crazy stuff is going to happen to you. Like, no. My God. You're going to come across these two idiots. Yeah. At the time of their arrest, Michael and Susan identified themselves to the authorities as married couple, Michael and Susan Baer. But it did not take long for the authorities to discover that their real names were James Clifford Carson and Susan Thornell Hamilton. What? Now, while Susan didn't quite rename herself, she was spelling Susan with a Z but her real name was spelled with an S.

Just wow. She was just being different. Contrary to what they said, they also were not legally married but they considered themselves common-law husband and wife. In time, pieces of Michael and Susan's past would be unearthed but those pieces didn't really explain the crimes that they were believed to have committed. Before meeting Susan with an S, Michael lived with his wife and daughter in Arizona. He has a daughter? He has a daughter. And I don't name her. I think she has done press, but like I don't want to name her if she doesn't want to be named here. So his daughter told a reporter in 2015, when my mom met my father, he was a nice Jewish boy.

Wow. Picture this guy, just a nice Jewish boy. Yeah, and look at what he's doing now. Yeah. When his daughter was just four years old, I guess Michael started exhibiting strange beliefs and behavior that hinted at possibly an undiagnosed mental illness.

Clearly. Yeah. But he never received any treatment, even though I'm sure his wife and his family was urging him to. But as a result of his increasing instability, the relationship between Michael and his wife started to crumble, and they ended up divorcing. Michael's daughter said, no one could have foreseen this, especially how weird it got.

Typically, your Jewish father doesn't convert to Islam than to some weird religion where they grow pot and kill gays." Because that's what they said they were doing. And she was four when this all started to happen. He started displaying strange behavior. That's horrifying. And I think his wife was probably like, hey, we got to figure this out. Like you got to talk to somebody. Well, and it's even worse because it's like at four, sorry, I dropped my water bottle everybody. At four, you very much like know your parent, you know what I mean? And to have him suddenly turn into a totally different person and then like disappear, damn.

Well, and before he left her, some weird shit went down where like Susan was a part of her life, which is even scarier. Yeah, just wait. Oh god. This girl's mom though, Michael's ex-wife, she knew what was like she was like no we're not feeling this. Is she a real one? She's a real one. Okay. So not long after splitting with his wife, Michael met Susan Hamilton at a Thanksgiving party of all places in 1977 and they very much hit it off. Like Michael, Susan was also married and also living

in Arizona and she too had been struggling with mental illness. At the time she was married to a newspaper executive and was raising two children. I did not see this. No, but her life was sidelined by a schizophrenia diagnosis that eventually ended up ruining her marriage. Michael's daughter told the Daily Beast she was living this posh country club lifestyle before she started using LSD and got involved with my father. This is the most bizarre thing I have ever heard. Same, same. Like I did not see, I thought these two were always rolled up out of the dirt like this. Like I thought they were both just rolling through like pig pen. If you there's like pictures of Mike, I couldn't

mind any of, or no, I actually did see one. There's pictures of both of them before, you know, they met each other. Nicole Sarris Oh, I'm looking at them right now. Nicole Sarris Took the path they did. Nicole Sarris Absolutely bizarre. Nicole Sarris She's literally like, it's like what his daughter said. She was a posh country club early and he's a nice Jewish boy. Nicole Sarris And also his daughter is adorable.

Yeah, I saw one photo where she was holding up a picture of them when she was little. It's like heart-breaking. Oh, adorable. So despite the end of their respective marriages, Michael tried to maintain a connection with his daughter, while Susan had no interest in her, and actively tried to drive a wedge between Michael and his old life. Honestly, fuck her. Susan sucks ass. She does.

So does Michael. But fuck Susan. This is horrible. During their last visit in Arizona, Susan actually attacked Michael's daughter. What? Her daughter recalled, I asked her to rub my back before I went to bed, and she scratched my back and she said she was going to get the demon out of me. But more frightening to me than the injury was what she was saying.

You can fool your father, but I know you're the devil and I'm gonna get this demon out of you. She's a little girl. And she asked this woman to rub her back before bedtime. She's probably like, I'm sure she missed her mom or she was uncomfortable and she's like, can you just rub my back while I fall asleep? And this woman, it attacks her and tells her

she has a demon inside of her. Fuck Susan. And this poor. And fuck Michael It attacks her and tells her she has a demon inside of her. Fuck Susan. And this poor. And fuck Michael for bringing this crazy bitch into his child's life. Yes. Fuck them both. This poor little girl, like kids believe things

and kids take things to heart. Like this poor little girl probably thought she had a demon inside of her. And that she was the devil. Yeah. Like what the fuck? I can't imagine what that would do to a child's psyche. Yeah, that would be it. Yeah. Like what the fuck? I can't imagine what that would do to a child's psyche. Yeah, that would be it. I'd be like, fuck you. You're

never seeing that child again. Well, the incident was the last motherfucking straw for the girl's mother who severed all communication with her husband and effectively went into hiding in order to avoid any future incidents like that. But I hate that they had to do that. I know. Because of him being a complete dick face and her being a dangerous piece of shit. Yup. That sucks. Oh, I hate that that happened to her. Yeah. But I'm so happy that her mom was like, fuck this. I'm taking you out of this situation. And how scary for her mom in the 70s. And to have to worry about him appearing somewhere. Exactly. You have to literally go in hiding because of this asshole. Yeah, and you know that I'm sure she thinks he's dangerous because God only knows what she heard. Of course. And then this woman attacks her daughter. She's probably terrified.

Oh my God. Wouldn't be a safe place on earth for that woman. Let me tell you. I'm telling you. Not long after Susan's marriage ended, she and Michael left Arizona and they decided to travel to Europe. They were living off of her trust fund. She's a trust fund baby. Oh, shut the fuck up. Susan has a trust fund.

Shut the fuck up. Everyone. And so they go to Europe, they're backpacking and they're just feeding on each other's increasingly bizarre beliefs and manic energy. They started experimenting with a variety of psychedelic drugs, which further distorted their thinking and exacerbated their shared psychosis because this isn't like drug therapy. This is them just dropping LSD all fucking here and there and everywhere. And they're already very mentally ill. You need a doctor, you guys.

And imagine both of them have just abandoned their children. Yeah, he has a child and she had two. And are just tripping balls in Europe with each other. LW- And living off her trust fund. S- And living off her trust fund while just abandoning their families. What absolute pieces of shit they were. LW- Now in time, they developed an ideology and belief system very unique to their existence, but they drew heavily on a very poor understanding of Islam and other world religions. Like we said earlier, they just heavily on a very poor understanding of Islam and other world religions.

Like we said earlier, they just bastardized a bunch of different religions. And cherry picked what they wanted. Exactly. To just, you know, be strange. They made up their own religion. They did. Yeah. They just took things from other religions. Exactly. And they took things and like twisted them and made them very dangerous and awful. and like twisted them and made them very dangerous and awful. To Susan and Michael, they were warriors for Allah who strove to live a life of purity. Purity, question mark.

I'm sorry, is the purity in the room with us? Where the fuck has the purity been in all this? Not here. And they said they were committed to eradicating the world of demons and witches who they believed walked freely among the unsuspecting people of the world. Wow. I'm not really sure how to respond to that. That's good. That means I think you're normal. Yeah.

When they returned to the US from Europe, they lived a somewhat nomadic lifestyle traveling up and down the California coast and into bordering states. They were trafficking drugs and just living off the grid. Yeah, abandoning their kids and just living off the grid. Yeah. Fun. And it was this lifestyle that put them into contact with people like Karen, like Clark, and John. All people who did not need to ever come in contact with these pieces of shit. No, not at all. While the press dug deeper into Michael and Susan's backgrounds, the authorities did their best to get any information out of the couple, but they would not budge. Both were being held without bail in the Sonoma County jail for the murder of John Hellyer at this point, but they

refused to speak to investigators about themselves or the crimes that they were accused of committing. During their arraignment in late January, it gets super bizarre, their trial in there. It gets more bizarre? Yeah, their pre-trial and their trial is so bizarre. During their arraignment in late January, Michael declared that he and Susan were quote, political prisoners. No. And were victims of a quote, conspiracy to deprive them of their right to a public trial.

False. Incorrect. The arraignment was repeatedly derailed by outbursts, including an hour-long delay after Susan angrily opposed the presence of her public defender. Her public defender. She told the judge, I won't let that man near me. He is not my attorney. He will never be my attorney. My husband's attorney is my attorney. Well, incorrect. The arraignment of Susan Michael Carson was, for those involved involved the first glimpse into a long journey ahead of them as far as a trial went. Nearly every statement made

by their respective attorneys or even the judge was met with outrage, mostly from Susan, who demanded that they be tried together and even went as far as to threaten to starve herself until that demand was met. So just let her. BG. Exactly. When the judge insisted that they be evaluated by a psychiatrist, Susan again reacted with defiance and told the judge, doctors, we don't do doctors. They are like swear words to us. We do not have diminished capacity. We are perfectly sane. LS. Debatable. BG. Debatable. LS. Debatable. BG. Debatable. I'm also like- LS. And I love doctors. That's like a swear word. It's like, wow. Debatable. I'm also like-

And I love doctors. That's like a swear word. It's like, wow. I'm also like, I love that doctors are like a swear word to you, which like a swear word is bad, but you're full blown murderers. Yeah. Hello? Like straight up murderers.

Like you kill people. Like kill and plan to get away with it. Yeah. Murderers. But doctors are like swear words. And plan the murder ahead of time. Like you are murderers. Yeah.

Yeah. Susan and Michael's antics in and out of the courtroom obviously had the press and all. They all watched and waited for any new updates in the case and as it unfolded in the months that followed. When they showed up for a preliminary hearing in early March, Susan and Michael stood next to each other in matching maroon jail jumpsuits,

just whispering and giggling like children. And they've killed people. Killed people. Remember that. Killed people. Yeah. And this is a preliminary hearing and they're like, LML, so funny.

I hate it. I hate it so much. When Judge Gary Antolini threatened to sanction both of them for their disruptive behavior, Michael shouted, long live the IRA, death to the queen, and was immediately removed from the courtroom. I mean, now you're just saying shit.

You're just being disruptive. Despite their obvious mental illness, there was no denying that they both enjoyed being in the spotlight, and they very much sought the attention of the press whenever they could get it. Yeah, they liked this. And they made provocative statements on purpose to get their attention. For example, when they can't, they complained to a San Francisco journalist that they weren't getting enough coverage in the San Francisco press, their statements only strengthened the investigation into their connection to the murder of Perry Brock. They're like, maybe we did

this. Yeah, like I want more attention. And it's like, when you see like real mental illness, it's so different from this. Like this is clearly mental illness. I'm not saying they're not mentally ill, but I'm saying a lot of this is attention seeking behavior. And it's like, and a lot of that is same thinking behavior. Yes, 90% I would say. By the end of April, they had started reaching out to various journalists themselves. Yeah, I mean, that's not, yeah, come on. Yeah, they're reaching out to various journalists around the state and they hoped that they could use the attention of the press to promote their religious beliefs. That's the other thing. Yeah.

By then, Michael and Susan had confessed to the reporters that although they were charged with only one murder, they had in fact killed three people. They just fully said that. And they said it was for religious reasons, quote unquote. Can you? Sitting there saying it's for religious reasons. Yeah. You killed someone for religious reasons. I'm like, what about...

And then you're trying to convert people to your religion. What about thou shall not kill? Yeah, that's apparently not part of theirs. Hello? Yeah. They left that one out intentionally. Like I said, cherry picked. Exactly.

And this is just awful. According to Michael, witchcraft, homosexuality and abortion are all causes for death. And they were only following all as orders when they carried out their crimes. What does it say about abandoning your whole family or hurting a child on purpose and telling them that you were going to remove the devil out of them physically? They didn't pick that part. That wasn't in there? No, not in there.

Not in there. Special subsection. But witchcraft, being gay, and abortion. Yeah, let's do that. Yeah, totally. And also like that's weird because no one you met seemed to have, like I didn't, that wasn't part of any of the story. Yeah, I didn't see any of it.

So what? Wow. In May, Michael and Susan held a press conference where they confessed to killing Karen Barnes, Clark Stevens, and John Hellyer. Michael told reporters, Susan ordered each killing as Susan sat beside him and just smiled widely. She was like, yeah, I did. Oh my god, I want to punch her in the face.

Same. Like violence is not the answer, but I want to punch this woman in the face. Violence is not the answer, it's the desire. It's true. According to Michael, Clark Stevens had quote, abuse Susan sexually. Nope, no evidence of that. And he said therefore he had to be killed. And despite their confession, when they appeared before a judge in mid May for the murder of Karen Barnes, both entered a plea of not guilty. Like you-

I'm sorry, what? Can we rewind to the press conference you held? Roll tape. Eventually, they would both rescind those confessions to all three murders and pleaded not guilty to all of the charges. Awesome. It seems like, obviously, the courtroom antics and outrageous statements were an attempt to strengthen the plea deal of diminished capacity.

For sure. But I- It didn't seem to work. Yeah, it didn't seem to work at all. They were unsuccessful. In January 1984, Michael Carson was deemed mentally competent to stand trial in San Francisco for the murder of Karen Barnes. Judge Claude Perrasso told a reporter, he is articulate.

This court could not find that he's incompetent and indicated that Michael had agreed to cooperate with his defense attorney. So it's like, it's also like once they realized that they weren't going to get any kind of plea, they slowed it all down. Of course. In May, Michael and Susan went on trial before Judge Perasso and a packed courthouse. As had been the case up to that point, the trial was constantly derailed by the defendants, wild and usually incoherent statements.

It featured several strange witnesses, including Maude Rinerston, a so-called good witch. That's a quote. Oh, there's those. Yeah. You never heard of Glinda? No. Maude was hired by the defense to provide expert testimony on the subject of witchcraft. She explained white magic has to do with working with the forces of nature to heal to create and to make the most of your life. But on the other hand, she explained black magic

involves manipulating people by controlling their will. This is very West Memphis three when they had the guy who had a mail order degree on the stand. Yes. I made him say it several times that he had a mail order degree that anybody could get. And then they still somehow convicted all three of them. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Interesting. On June 5th, 1984, Michael and Susan were both found guilty of the murder of Karen Barnes, who they explained they killed with a frying pan in the kitchen after they claimed she, quote, used witchcraft to sap Susan of her health, power, and beauty. No. I said, interesting. In their statement to the press following

the verdict, Susan's defense attorney said it's difficult to get a jury to believe in a defense of witchcraft. I mean, yeah. I'm like, are you sitting there saying that Karen was a witch? Yeah. Is that what you're saying? Are you like implying that? That's definitely being implied. At the sentencing hearing a month later, Michael and Susan were both sentenced to 25 years to life. And when asked if they had anything to say on their own behalf,

Susan launched into a 40 minute rant where she paced the floor and flailed her arms wildly. And she screamed to the judge, I'm crying, so I don't care. Okay. What? They let her talk for 40 minutes. Yeah. I also was like, that's interesting because they don't always. Michael was similarly remorseless and told the judge, I killed a witch because it's the law of God to do so when you're first attacked. I tell you that I did a righteous act to save the life of my wife. Someday the Lord will set me free.

The Lord God will set me free. Spoiler alert. He won't. In the months that followed, Michael and Susan were subsequently tried for the murders of Clark Stevens and John Hellyer in very similarly disruptive trials, and they were both found guilty and given additional sentences of 25 years to life for each murder. I love that. Yeah. I love when they do that. Oh, it's great. I love it. After the verdict in the 1985 trial for the murder of John Hellyer, Michael told reporters that he had been, quote-unquote, coerced into not taking the stand in his own defense, and that ultimately the entire trial was unfair. If you had taken the stand in your own dispense,

it would have gone a lot worse for you. Yeah, we would have been... You would have gotten the same outcome. I think they would have built a new prison just to house you. Like that, you would have been bad. In 2015, Michael and Susan Carson both became eligible for parole after that federal order dictated California's prison system had become overcrowded and the state needed to consider releasing elderly prisoners or those unlikely to reoffend. And at that point, Michael and Susan were both elderly. The families of the victims were completely outraged by the fact

that their loved ones killers might be released, but they were soon relieved when they learned that both were denied parole. Karen Barnes sister Lisa told a reporter, I'm so thrilled. I was terrified that they may let this crazy monster out due to her being a little old lady. Because it's like, do you think her becoming a little old lady is going to change the fact that she's a crazy dangerous bitch? No. And she manipulated. She's just going to be an old crazy dangerous bitch. And we don't need that because that's even more manipulative. Exactly. And she was involved in the killings, but a lot of times it was her manipulating Michael into doing it.

Exactly. So she's dangerous. She doesn't need to do anything. She can just manipulate somebody else to do her bidding. At the time, neither Susan or Michael seemed particularly interested in parole. And Susan didn't even bother showing up for her parole hearings. In June of 2015, Michael canceled his parole hearing. He was busy.

He told the committee that he refused to abandon his religious beliefs. Oh, he's still on it? Yes. I thought they would have gotten rid of that. Nope. In a letter to officials at Mule Creek Prison, he wrote, I know this is absurd. No one is going to parole me because I will not and have not renounced my beliefs. You're right. In 2020, he became eligible for parole again, and the victim's family spoke out against him with a

unified voice. This time, they were also joined by his own daughter, who also objected to his release. She said, I truly believe that just because he's old does not make him safe. Yes, you are right. With his lack of regret and his views and the hate he's filled with and his demented mind, I think in a year or less someone else will be dead. Yes, I agree. For his own daughter to say that, that holds a lot of weight. Ultimately, his bid for parole was rejected.

In the years since their arrest, they have been suspected of various violent crimes committed in and around California during the 70s and early 80s. Oh, I bet there's plenty. There's gotta be, but there's never been sufficient evidence produced that could actually link them to those crimes,

but they are very much suspected for more. As of today, they both remain incarcerated and they won't be eligible for parole again until 2030, which is not really that far away. I wonder how old they are now. Yep. 74 and 83. Keep them in there. Keep them in there forever. Scary, scary case. And really scary. Like a lot of these people were good people and like nobody deserves to be killed. No, that's the thing. And especially the way that it all happened. It's awful. They like smeared these people's names too. They said that Karen was a witch, that Clark was going to sexually abuse Susan. They said the same thing about John. They said that he actually had. It's unbelievable. Yeah. They're the same thing about John. They said that he actually had. It's unbelievable.

Yeah. They're disgusting. Yeah. A wild case though. They are disgusting. And I'm happy that they're still going to continue to rot. Me too. Because they don't seem like they have any remorse either. No, they don't at all. And they still believe the same things. They still are hate-filled bags of pus. So it's like just leave them in there. They are bags of pus.

They are. You're right. Bye bitches. Well, with all that being said, we hope you keep listening. And we hope you keep it weird. But it's not so weird letting you this because ew don't be a bag filled with pus. Don't do it. Yuck. I'm going to go to the bathroom. If you like Morbid, you can listen early and ad-free right now by joining Wondery+, in

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