Morbid - Episode 80: The Murder of Maddie Clifton "Mini" Morbid

Episode Date: July 14, 2019

It's an Alaina Mini Morbid, which means it is longer than an average full length episode. Trust us, it is worth it because this case is a truly horrific but endlessly fascinating look into the mind of a secretly troubled young boy who fooled absolutely everyone in his life. Unfortunately, it was young, precious, vivacious Maddie Clifton was on the receiving end of his break from reality.  *****TRIGGER WARNING***** This case involves the death of a child and it is hard to hear. We warn ahead of time when it will be discussed, so you can skip accordingly if you feel like you need to!  Sources: Kids who Kill: Joshua Phillips: True Crime Press Series 1, Book 1 by Kathryn McMaster https://www.jacksonville.com/news/20170810/19-years-later-narrative-behind-maddie-cliftons-demise-gets-even-worse https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/5573932/joshua-phillips-children-who-kill-maddie-clifton/ See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

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So the next time you have a home project, just Angie that and start getting the most out of your home. Download the free Angie mobile app today or visit Angie.com. That's ANGI.com. Hey weirdos, I'm still Ash and I'm still Elena and this shit is still morbid as fuck. And mini. Mini, mini, mini, mini, mini, more bed. Mini, more bed, mini, more bed. Mini, more bed. Baaaad.

It's mini and I always forget to say that. You definitely do. But you know what? Here you are. And the title says that it's mini. And you know what? It's actually not mini. I was just gonna say this is not a mini.

I don't lie to the people. In fact, and I'll explain this at the end of the episode This might have a little branch off of it that goes into my next mini Well, I love trees so trees they provide oxygen correct love them. Yep. Yep. Let's keep those around So we're just two nerds who think we're funny That's my favorite negative review ever. I don't even look at it as a negative review. I am a nerd and I do think I'm funny.

Do your friends think I'm funny? Yeah, we haven't really given a shit about any of our negative reviews lately because we're just like in that place now where we don't care about negative reviews. We care much more about all the beautiful, lovely listeners who leave us beautiful, thoughtful, delightful, positive reviews because you guys are the best. So we just want to thank you. When I'm sad I read the positive reviews. Yeah, because you guys are so thoughtful and just nice and you're articulate and I just we love you. We read literally every single one of them. All of them.

And they touch our black little hearts and our somewhat souls. But the one negative review that we also loved so much was somebody who literally just said, they're just two nerds that think they're funny. And I'm like, you know what, you're not wrong. Yeah, I was like, you know what? Nailed it.

That's not false information, Sally. That's correct. So that's really all, that's not business, but that's all the business we attend to when I'm in many morbid. So let's dive right into this. What's your many morbid about? My many morbid.

Let's just call it your fucking morbid. My full ass morbid. My full ass morbid. I'm not gonna tell you, I'm just gonna lead you into it. Okay. I'm gonna see if you know this'm just gonna lead you into it. Okay. I'm gonna see if you know this case. This is kind of like a well known case, I would think. Don't say that, because I probably won't know it.

That's okay. Thank you. So on November 3rd, 1998, I was live. You were barely, but you were alive. I was like two. Yeah. That's like barely. Two years on the earth, that's not a lot.

Eight-year-old Madeline Maddie Ray Clifton, who was born on June 17, 1990, arrived home from school to her home in Fleetwood, on Fleetwood Road, Lakewood, Jacksonville, Florida. I want to live on Fleetwood Road. Yeah. Fleetwood? Oh, Fleetwood house, like, what is the thing that I get to know? Thank you. That evening, she sat down and played the piano sometime around like five o'clock. Mm-hmm. So after she did her piano practice, it was about 20 minutes later.

And she went off to chip some golf balls with a guy named Larry Grisham, who lives at the end of the street. I love that. Now, Maddie was like a little tomboy. She loved sports. She was like super tough. Like they describe her as tough as nails at one point.

But she could also be like a ballerina. Right. She was super well-rounded, just like this cool little chick. Just like a badass a year old. Exactly. Like Maddie was so cool. Oh, no. I don't like where this is headed.

Yeah. She came back home and she was like, mom, I need some more golf balls because we lost them all. So this is the last time her mother saw her alive. Now, little warning ahead of time, I am going to give you a big warning when I discuss it, but there is a child death obviously in this one, but I will let you know when things get a little gnarly here, because I personally hate children's death cases as well, like I have problems reading or listening to them, but I think this one's just really important to tell. So by 6.20 p.m. that night, her Maddie's mom Sheila Clifton, she called for her and her older sister, who was, I believe, 11 years old Jessica, to come in. She called her for dinner. And this is just what they did.

Like, this was, you know, the night. They were gonna call the sack. Everybody knew each other. So, and I mean, even when I used to play outside when I was little, our parents just called us in for dinner. Like, we were playing around the neighborhood. Yeah. It used to play outside when I was little, our parents just called us in for dinner, like we were playing around the neighborhood. It used to be a very normal thing. Exactly. Like it sounds crazy now, but it's like back then it really wasn't that big of a deal. Now, when she calls them for dinner, Jessica comes in immediately.

Oh, no. And Maddie's not with her. So Jessica's like, oh yeah, I haven't seen Maddie for a while. I didn't even know she was out playing. So of course her mom's like, what? Which I can't even fathom the amount of just like, sick, that you might feel like. I can like feel it for her.

So she immediately starts going to neighbor's houses because she knows them and she's saying, where's that? I mean, she's not seen. No one has seen her. and she's saying, where's that? She's not, she's not, no one has seen her. So she's starting to literally panic and she's standing on her front lawn screaming Maddie's name. Oh my God.

Which I totally get because it's like that's in like quick little side note. My kids are three and a half years old. So my twins, they don't go anywhere without me seeing them. Right. I'm probably like too much, I suppose. I don't think that you could ever meet too much. I just feel like you can't be. No. And we were out in our backyard the other day. And one of them went in the house without telling me to go get something. And I

happened to turn around and see only one of them. I screamed her name in such a state of panic that she started to cry. Oh! Back out from the house. And I ran to her and I was like, well, I didn't know where you went. And I'm sorry, I yelled, but I didn't know where you went.

I thought I lost you. Like I freaked out. I freaked out, because it can happen like that. It's like you, these things can happen in the matter of seconds So it's like they do when it happens even for a split second. It's like every scenario must go through your head Absolutely. So yeah, so I'm crazy mom just so you know So unfortunately, so yeah, so her mother Sheila was absolutely freaking out by this point and Soon the entire neighborhood started searching around well, and it's like it's a cul-de-sac she couldn't have fucking gone far without

Someone seeing something and I'm sure everybody in that neighborhood is like whoa whoa whoa wait a second like we all know each other And we all know like you can see a car come and go from a cul-de-sac so they're like wait a second now her father Steve Who was a supervisor at a metal shop, he said, quote, it was like she shut the door and just poof vanished off the face of the earth. Oh my God. That makes me heart hurt. Yeah. So by 6.33 p.m. approximately, Sheila Clifton had had enough and she called 911. She was like, I'm not fucking around here. That so that night, I mean, adults, children,

everybody in that neighborhood and around that neighborhood went on searches. Like people were volunteering everywhere. Jessica, her older sister, who was like 11, was riding her bike through the neighborhood screaming Maddie's name, like this was a huge... This is hurting my soul. Yeah, so, I mean, and this was in the

middle of the night, people had flashlights out. They went all through the night looking for her. She couldn't find her anywhere. Now somebody who was with these searchers was a neighbor who lived very close to the Clifton's house. He was a 14-year-old. He often played with Maddie and his name was Joshua, Josh Phillips. Okay. Now Maddie was apparently liked him a lot, like liked to play with him. Yeah, even though he's 14 and she's eight. Mm-hmm.

Later we will see that that was a source of contention at one point. They went for hours and hours all through the night. Next morning, nowhere to be found. OK. So the following day, a Jacksonville Sheriff's Office detective decided to go door to door and started talking to each neighbor, trying to get stories, finding out where people were that night, like just where that figure of what happened here.

No one could give any useful information, because they all had alivis. They were all friends with the Clifton's and they were like we we didn't we never saw her. Like she wasn't here. She wasn't playing with our kid. Okay. So there was one person that they kind of focused on at first. His name was Larry Grisham, the guy that she went to Chip Golfballs with. Is this like an actual guy? Well, that's the thing. When I first read it, I was like, oh, Larry Grisham, she's going to play with. Larry Grisham is a man.

He was a 45 year old man who liked to play with children. Okay. And I don't mean he, like, I'm not suggesting that he liked to, like, quote, unquote play with a children. Yeah. But he did have a criminal history that involved 29 arrests to his name. I am sure people didn't know about this. To make sure that he didn't know about this.

Now the charges he had under his name were things like auto theft, DUIs, but there were two counts of sexual battery five years apart from each other. Both of those counts were dropped. Okay. They are on his record. Okay. And they do not say that they're against the child. Okay. But still, either way.

So that's a little stressful until we're done. Exactly. So I'm not sure what's going on with that, but I'm, I mean, I'm not blaming anybody, but I probably wouldn't let my eight-year-old play with a 40-year-old man. Yeah. I just think that might be a little weird. But I guess if, you know, she's outside with him, they're hitting golf balls. Yeah. Maybe they could see the house from where she went.

Right, right, right, right. I mean, I'm personally, I wouldn't, but I can't speak for all parents. I'd be like, no good 40-year-old has an eight-year-old friend studying alone. Yeah, I just didn't feel right to be a kid. Sorry, kid. According to Larry, when they discussed with him discussed with him like you were the last person

to see that supposedly was with her. So what happened that night? So he said that night around 515 pm, they had, there was like a strip of land between his home and a neighbor's house. And they were using that strip, which was really close to Maddie's house. I guess it was like five doors down. Okay. They were using that strip to chip golf balls.

Sure. So they were out in the open, people could see them. And he said, Maddie went to get some more golf balls, but she didn't come back. So he said, from what I figured, her parents wanted her to stay home

because it was getting a little late. It was 515. And dinner was ready. It was ready. Something like I wasn't really concerned about it. Right. And he said, that's it. That's the last I saw.

So police did take him in for more questioning and he did fail a polygraph. OK. But we know how polygraphs can be like fucking as useful as like a fucking hot dog in a trench coat. Like it's literally- Is that a real thing? I don't know where that just came from. I didn't know if I was like-

It feels real expression. It feels like that's not very useful. A hot dog in a trench coat, right? I want someone to draw that for us. I just really want a hot dog. So I think that's why that came to me. And then I feel like you want to want it in a trench coat, because you can't eat it.

So yeah, so we failed the polygraph, but you know, trench coats, a hot dog. And trench coats, hot dogs, all that mess. So police did search Larry's house, they searched it nine times. That's a lot. So I think they were really trying to nail the guy with it. What are you hiding? Because they didn't have anything else. So I think they're like, you got to be it. You have a last guy who's sorry, you're 45 years old guy with it. What are you hiding? Because they didn't have anything else. So I think they're like, you gotta be it.

You have a last guy who's sorry, you're 45 years old playing with an eight-year old. And you have all three of these. You have this extensive record too. They questioned him 20 times. He was able to provide a strong alibi, and he readily gave them DNA samples. Okay, so that kind of made it.

It's not our guy. Yeah. So now Steve and Sheila, Maddie's parents are sitting here having to think like quite possibly somebody who's five doors down for me has Maddie. Right. Because they still haven't found her. They don't even know if she's alive dead. What? Oh my god. I can't imagine how crazy they must have. Well, then can you imagine how worried you are about your other child too? Exactly. And how worried everybody in the neighborhood is fucking kids. Exactly. And apparently they did station a police officer or a couple of them at the

Clifton home because they were worried about Jessica. Because they were like, we don't know what this is about. Right. So maybe someone is going to come in. And Jessica was probably fucking terrified. Oh yeah. And again, hundreds of volunteers are still scouring the neighborhood. They're scouring the nearby woods, swamps, anything. And there was nothing's coming up. They did a house-to-house search with cadaver dogs. The US Army Reserve even came in to go through manholes and shit.

Yeah, crazy. So they had missing person posters printed. Like they were posted everywhere. And everyone was wearing yellow ribbons and were hanging them on trees for Maddie. My heart. So this was a huge search. I mean, this was nothing to sneeze at.

Now, on Sunday of that week, even the Jaguar's football coaches were wearing the ribbons. Oh, yeah. So this was huge. Of course, nothing. So this is when the Clifton's were like, we have to go to the press.

Like we have to do something. We have to do, like we have to up our game here. So they went on TV and they begged whoever had her to police let her go. They offered $50,000 reward for any news to her whereabouts. Damn, $50,000 is a lot of fucking money. And they said there's a possibility of doubling it. So they literally like, we want $1,000 is a lot of fucking money. And they said, there is a possibility of doubling it. So they literally like, we will do $1,000 to get her home.

My God. And then they addressed her directly and they said, quote, Maddie, if you are out there and you can hear us, we are ready for you to come back home, please come home. And her mom was like sobbing. Oh, that really just hurt my soul. They had t-shirts with her face on them.

They, there was more than 10 billboards throughout Jacksonville with her face on them. This is giving me chills. This one on for, and this was a whole week. So, seven days after Maddie went missing, the Clifton's went on to Good Morning America. Mm-hmm. And this is when they were just trying to again,

plea for her captor to let her go if she was alive, like, when they were just trying to again plea for her captor to let her go if she was alive like you know just trying anything. While they were wrapping up this segment on Good Morning America, Maddie was found. Okay. So let's go to the Phillips house. Okay. Yeah. Not a place you want to be. So Melissa Missy Phillips is Josh Phillips mom. So this was seven days after Maddie went missing. Missy Phillips is getting ready for work. She just sent Josh off to school.

So she had a few, like I think she had a couple of hours, but before she had to go into work. Yeah. So she said it was just after 7 a.m. and she said she was like, you know what? I'd been asking Josh to clean his fucking room. I know this case. All week.

And he hadn't done it. So she was like, I had this time and I was like, I'm going to start getting rid of shit. Because she said, not only was it an absolute pigstie, but she said there was this fucking disgusting odor coming from it. Mm-hmm. Now, she said, quote, I'd been nagging him about his room because it was in deplorable condition. So I had a garbage bag and I was going to start putting stuff in

that I knew was trash. He had three birds that he kept in his room. So oftentimes if he didn't change the cage out, it would start smelling, but she did say this smelled much worse. I think he had two parakeets in a cockatiel. And she said, she figured it was like a combo of the birds and he's 14 years old, maybe has some like rotting food

in his room. So she was like, I'm going in there to find this. 14 year old boys just smell bad anyways. Exactly. So while she's cleaning, she says she noticed a damp spot on the floor. This damp spot was on the corner of Josh's bed, which was a water bed. Okay. Now she immediately is like shit, the water

bed is leaking. Oh, which sucks. As someone who had a water bed when I was younger, you're fucked. That shit leaks all the time and it sucks. So I understand why she immediately was like, oh, fuck, that's the water. Yeah. She said, quote, I was thinking, maybe it's mildew, you know, or mold. Maybe that's what this odor is. Right. Coming from the leaking water bed. She's like, what the fuck is this? No. Yeah. So she said she touched the corner of the mattress and it was

absolutely soaked. So she said she looked in a little bit more because she, you know, water beds are bullshit. And she was afraid she was going to have to literally drain the whole thing. Because that's what you have to do when they leak. Oh, so they're like not as I don't even know if they're a thing anymore. I don't like they used to be huge. I think it's like a gel mattress is like the new probably yeah, which makes a lot more sense. So after she looked at the bed frame and she said she noticed that there was black electrical tape holding one of the corners together. And she was like, huh, fuck's that about.

So she said she also noticed that there was something that looked like a sock in there. And she was like, oh, how do you get one of his socks in the bed frame? Like, oh, no. So she's like, my kids grow up. Like, what is wrong with you, Josh? So then she's like, this tape is weird because she's like, you've never taped his bed frame before. So she peeled the tape apart and cracked open the corner panel.

And she said it was dark under that bed. Like there's a little cavern between the water bed mattress and like the box spring. And she said she went and had to go get a flashlight because she was like, I can't see anything. So she said she lifted it up again and put the flashlight in there. And she said she lifted it up again and put the flashlight in there and she said she saw something absolutely horrific inside.

Okay. She calls her husband Steve and she gets his voicemail and she just says, the voicemail says, please call home, please, it's an emergency. Oh God. Now, he didn't call back. So she said, I knew I needed to get someone.

So she knew the neighborhood had a ton of police around. Uh-huh. So instead of calling 911, this was around 7.30 a.m. She ran outside and just ran up to the nearest police officer. Oh, this poor woman. Officer Donald F. Tutton, I think it is. He was part of the Jacksonville Sheriff's Office.

He was sitting in an unmarked in his marked police car And he was on surveillance duty because they had someone constantly right now He said he saw this woman run out of her house at 6139 Fleetwood Street and she was running up to his vehicle So she he can see that she's crying like totally distraught so he gets out and he's like, can I help you? Like, what is going on? Right. So she can barely get out what she needs him to do. And she's so hysterical. Finally, she manages to tell him she's found something

at her home and he needs to come see it. Okay. So he's like, oh good. Like, yeah, right. I'd be like, can you just maybe give me a hint? Yeah, he's like fun, a puzzle. So just what I love in my line of work. So he said, what is it that you found?

And she's like, I can't say. She's like, please, please, please, just come in. She's like, can you just fucking tell what it is? Yeah, because honestly, I'd be like, I don't want to. I can't imagine being this dude. Like, I would have been like, oh, no. I'm busy that day. No, I don't want to.

So he's smartly radioed for two other detectives to come. I was gonna say, because imagine she could just be like some crazy lady. Exactly. I can't want you to see this bomb I made. Exactly. So I think he's like, yeah, I'm gonna get to the people. Call him tobacco.

Now, so the three detectives ended up following her back to her house and she brings them to Josh's room, but she says, I can't, I can't go in. And so she said, quote, I just pointed to where they needed to look. I couldn't even go in this poor, poor woman. So officer, soulless, who's one of the detectives opened the door and he said he immediately smelled death and decay. And you know that. I don't know what that smells like. And he said, we know what that smells like.

And he said, I immediately knew what that smelled like. So he said, the bottom cavity of the water bed was left open. And he said, sticking out from the corner, we could clearly see two small feet clad in white socks. Oh, that just like did something to me. Yeah. Yeah. It's really bad.

Immediately Missy Phillips started sobbing and like screaming, just losing her mind. Yeah. Because now it's real. So officer Tutton took her away outside and he was like, you have to tell me what, how you found this, like what happened here. So she said, quote, as I lifted the corner of the mattress,

I noticed a white sock and figured it was one of Josh's. So I started to pull on it, but it wouldn't budge. Oh my God. I wondered how it got there in the first place, and was puzzled as to why it would not pull free. About that time, I noticed black electrical tape holding the black frame of the pedestal together, and surmised the bed must have been leaking for quite some time, and apparently

Josh had attempted to hold it together with the tape so he wouldn't get into trouble, which is a running theme with this case as Josh didn't want to get in trouble. How did she not feel the foot in the sock? She will she did. The tape freely pulled away from the pedestal and the wood gave way just enough that I could at least see the sock better. I grabbed it and this time felt something else. Sorry. So I went to another room and retreat to flashlight. As I pulled the pedestal slightly away, the sock fell down and I felt something cold. At the same time, the beam of the flashlights showed me something I could never have been prepared to see. It could not be what I thought it was, yet somehow I knew exactly what

I had found, the missing little girl from across the street. Oh, I just got goosebumps. Yeah. So, I mean, and she was freaking out because she was like, I just, I had to implicate my own son. Yeah, that's like your baby. I had to do it. Like this is someone else's baby, but that is my baby. You know, like what a fucking mind fuck.

So this is when Officer Tatton was that is my baby. You know, like what a fucking mind. So this is when officer Tatton was like, okay, where is your son? And she was like, he's on the school bus on his way to school right now. My God. So and she also said, quote, I remember looking at the Clifton's house as I walk towards the patrol car thinking right now they still have hope in a few minutes. They'll know. Oh my God.

Right. You are destroying, they'll know. Oh my God. Right. You are destroying me. I know. So by this time, Josh's father Steve had got the voice mail, so he was rushing home, because all he knew was he was a... He doesn't even know. It was an emergency, that's all he knew. So we got there, there's like a million police cars,

he isn't allowed inside his house, he's like, what the fuck is going on? As this is going on as this is going on this is when detectives knocked on the Clifton store and She led Steve Clifton said they knew immediately it wasn't good because they were like their faces and After seeing all these police cars swarm a house near them. They were like, yeah, this can't be good Right, which I just can't even imagine. It's like, oh, it like is be such a pit in my stomach. They all sat down with them and they told them that they did find Maddie. And she wasn't alone.

And her father's first question was, where did you find her? And the officer said across the street. Oh God. Which must have destroyed them, knowing for the whole week the entire, that's seven full days. Yeah. Like the whole week she's been right over there. Like yards away from you. And you have no idea how long she's been alive. You don't know what she's gone through.

I mean, just the thoughts that must be running through your brain as a parent, unbelievable to me. I can't even bring myself to my home. You know, you can think about it, but you can't even place yourself in that. You can think about it, but you can't think about it. But then you want to run as far away from it as possible. You want to get on a train, a plane, an automobile, and get the fuck out of there.

So yes, so that's your next note. Who is Josh? That's just how I read it. Who's Josh? My notes are so weird. Like, who's Josh? There is nothing funny about this case, but there are lots of funny things about my notes. So who's Josh? Let me know. I'm gonna let you know.

Let me know. So Joshua Earl Patrick Phillips was born March 17th, 1984. I thought people with three names were weird, but maybe people with four names are like extra food. Yeah. I think so, I think this proves it. You are extra-fooked. And he's so. I think this proves it. You are extra food. And he's the only child of Stephen Melissa Phillips.

Okay. Now he does have two older half brothers that were already moved out of the house. So he didn't really grow up with them. So he was essentially an old bitch. Yeah, fuck them. Yeah, fuck them. So when Josh was born, he was a happy, healthy,

very normal baby, nothing to report during the birth that like could have been like, oh shit. Point of thought. Oh, there it is. Now they said he was always smiling as a baby and a child. He was his his parents described him as a pleasure. Oh, the family did move several times over the years, but Josh remained like a happy, talkative kid, super friendly with everyone, didn't seem to bother him.

He made friends easily. He was super active and he was like a really curious child. Okay. And we can know those kids that are like, I need to know what this guy is blue. Like your kids? Yeah. It's like, which is a good thing, you know?

Like why your kids ask questions? Exactly. And I mean, by all accounts, he seems, it's like, which is a good thing, you know, like your kids ask like questions. Exactly. And I mean, by all accounts, he seems like he's like a very, like, you know, average child. A very good, like, you know, healthy child. Yeah. Just like doing everything you want kids to do. He like going to zoos, he loved animals,

he loved going to museums, he loved science, from like an early age. He was a member of the Cub Scouts. He rose all the way to Wolf Cub, which means absolutely nothing to me. I'm just gonna say, I don't know what that even means. I'm sure someone listening knows what that means. I mean, it's the Cub Scouts, so Wolf Cub sounds pretty diesel. I feel like Eagle Cub is like the best you can get.

I don't think Eagles have Cubs, but you're really pretty. I'm gonna go now. I didn't put into like my thoughts that like you had the animal before the thing has to have a baby. No, I know a cub is a baby. I think they have eagles.

I think that's what they're called actually, which is cute. I actually already left. More, you know. Hi, I'm Lindsey Graham, the host of Wondery's podcast American scandal. We bring to life some of the biggest controversies in US history. Presidential lies, environmental disasters, corporate fraud. In our newest series, we look at the Kids for Cash scandal, a story about corruption inside America's system of juvenile justice. In Northeastern Pennsylvania, residents had begun noticing an alarming trend. Children were being sent away to jail in high

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Again, we're not laughing at this case guys. No, no, I just wanna always clarify that we, when we laugh, people are like, they are laughing and they're just, for instance, back fall. Sometimes people get really mad at us. Listen, Susan, but Susan chill. Calm down, all right?

Because we're just laughing at our own dumb. We love you, Susan. Just deal with it. To his father. His parents were, you know, they loved him. They took care of him. They didn't physically abuse him by all accounts, by his own account. Okay.

But his dad was like a really big and posing dude. Okay. He also had a really bad temper. Oh. That temper was fueled by alcohol. Okay, so not like a dick. Not good. Yeah.

And basically he was super strict, very strict disciplinarian. Which is not always great. Right. Especially when it's fueled by alcohol. Was it like borderline emotionally abusive? Exactly. It teetered into emotional and verbal abuse. We don't stand. Josh was very scared of his dad and didn't want to do things to incite his temper. Obviously. Which is important later. At 14 years old, Josh was this tall, skinny, brown, curly-haired, brown-haired little boy.

He actually looks super baby. He has a very baby face. Very baby face, which is even worse when you look at his picture and you know what happened. Yeah. You're like, that you have such a baby face. How did you do this adult thing? That's a really upsetting. Because humans are gross. Yeah, they really are. So at this point when he was 14, people described him as a normal happy kid. He had tons of friends, love to make people laugh,

not alone or at all. Okay. Like not rebellious. Nothing that would point to like something's going on with that kid. Right. He attended school at A. Philip Randolph Academy of Technology. He was in ninth grade at this point and he had a C average. Same. He was also a bit of, you know, he was kind of like the class clown. But not in like trouble. You know, like he didn't go to the principal's office or anything. Yeah.

Like he was just funny. He was just like a goofy kid. He's just a fun goofy ball. So again, he never, nothing would have pointed to this kid having any issues whatsoever. Yeah, so far he seems very typical. Yeah, like this wasn't one of those things with the neighbors, like yeah, oh my God, we're shocked,

but you know what, there was that one time he kicked my dog. Nothing, like nothing. Nothing. Like, nothing. Except for this, this, I was gonna say, there has to be something. Except for this. There's never nothing. And this is, this is a big thing.

Should we, is this gonna be like a, well no, this is just more like, so this kid was all of those things. Okay. But he had this whole other like part of him that I think he hid from like his family and stuff a lot that came out later. Okay. And we're gonna see. So he had been in trouble with Maddie's parents before. Oh, Maddie's parents had already not taken a shine to him. Why? So at one point, they had forbidden him

from entering their house. Tell me why? Because one time, they came home and they found him in Jessica's bedroom upstairs, the older daughter. The 11 years Jessica there? Nope. Uh huh.

And he was uninvited. Uh huh. And this was just one month prior to Maddie's murder. Okay. What happened? He apparently stole a photo out of a frame of Jessica in a gymnastics leontard doing like a back bend. Okay. So what ended up happening is they found out in this was discussed a lot in trial. He was weirdly obsessed with Jessica. Oh, like weirdly obsessed. And she was 11. She was 11 and he was 14. He also discussed sex in front of the two girls. Oh yeah. And Florence Clifton, who was their

grandmother, was like, you don't come around my granddaughters anymore like she found out about this and was like no. Oh shit. Now they at this point in Maddie and Jessica's parents were like yeah we don't want you playing with our kids anymore like you're too old to like yeah why is like no one is a 14 year old being out with an 11 and a knee girl you don't need to be around them and you're not doing yourself any favor here by acting really gross around them. Right. No. Now, as time went by, this started to loosen up a little bit and they started to be a little more of like, okay, you guys really put them together. You're like 14 year old boys.

But they still weren't like super psyched. And Josh's parents also found out about all this and we're like, you're not playing with Ben. Yeah. We're not getting into this shit. Right. Now, what came out later to when police searched his Computer, is that they found out that he was really into violent sexual images in graphic pornography

some of which involved children. Ew. So He had this weird whole other. Okay, so he was not a normal going on, but it didn't leak out That's the word that's the weirdest part of this dude is it never leaked out until this happened. It's like there was no like tiny little leaks happening of this part of his personality. It just exploded in the worst way it possibly could. It's like really fascinating that that's how it happened. And horrific. Oh, so horrific. He also allegedly, I'll say allegedly, because I don't know if they ever... It's uncontested totally. I mean, it was in the trial,

they did alleged this in trial, that he had broken into the Clifton's home at times to steal little things, like a picture here, and just like, oh, and they said they found holes in Jessica's walls that were covered by posters where like crawl spaces were in. No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, like, like, and again, Danny will plant types. Yes. And they couldn't, they couldn't confirm that he was the one who did this, but they alleged that he had something to do with this to like spy on her. Okay, that's fucked up.

But again, these are not things that they like totally confirmed, but it's something that was brought up. Oh my God. And either way, he definitely stole the photo because the photo was missing. They discovered him in the room and then when the police logged everything in his bedroom, that photo was taped to his headboard. Why did his parents never notice, that photo was taped to his headboard.

Why did his parents never notice that that picture was taped to his headboard? Maybe he might have, maybe covered it with pillows or something. Ew. Because they didn't say where it was taped to. Right, right, right, right. They were very mattress.

That's true, and like, that's really fucked up. Creepy. So speaking of the crime scene, oh. Let's talk about what the police found in his room. Does your notes say the crime scene? Is this crime scene? Her notes are amazing.

So who's Josh? Who's Josh? Josh had a ton of air fresheners and incense in his room. Wonder why. Yeah. I mean, me too, actually. It's minus the air fresheners. Yeah, but he kind of explains later

that he just kept adding fresheners to his room throughout the week because it just kept getting worse and worse. He didn't know what else to do. So there was a can of for Breeze fabric fresh. There was an odor eaters, air freshiners, there were two glazed plugins. Wow. Several rolls of tape, a baseball bat hidden behind a dresser which comes back later. A leather man knife which was thrown behind the TV. They found a pair of tennis shoes that were stained in Maddie's blood. And they also found a flyer that was literally the missing person's flyer that was hanging from a bookshelf. Okay, that's fucking... Like hanging up in his room as she decomposed under her bed.

Okay, no, this kid is not fucking normal. So they also found, and they like named this, which I was like, whoa, whoa, whoa, step back. What? They named that he had a card game entitled Magic the Gathering on his bookshelf, and I was like, we're saying I used to collect those cards. I was just about to say, didn't you have those cards? I was like, well, fuck. I mean, that's just a card game, whatever. I know, but I was like, don't name that in the crime scene, man.

Yeah, that's like uns... that makes me feel some type of way. That's like being like also he owned cards against humanity, which likely led to it. It's like come on. Like alright. Don't play magic the gathering. It's like Dungeons and Dragons. It's a great game basically. Basically. Right.

So they also found... Also he was a wizard. Also he was totally trying to be a wizard. Just as I know. It's like same, but I'm not really people. They also found a piece of carpet. They took a piece of carpet that had blood on it. Oh, no.

Can you imagine being a parent, his parents, and being like, wow, I had no fucking idea that this was all his room. That a dead body was in his room. In my house. In my house. I'd be so pissed at him. Oh, I would question a lot.

Yeah. They also found that photograph of Jessica that was, if she was dressed in a leotard and she was doing like some Gymnastics position where she was like bent over. Okay. They took a pillowcase from his bed In some of the clothing that they believed he was wearing the day of okay They took a hairbrush and they found a pair of panties They bagged those for DNA analysis. What a fucking skis this kid is.

Yeah. And there was a ceiling fan on his ceiling, and it was like a wooden kind of ceiling fan. Yeah. So they found a fine spray of blood on that ceiling fan. Oh, so this happened to be green. Yeah. It later proved to be Maddie's blood. And they said that it was eight feet off the floor,

that that spray went. Okay. Which later when we discuss his confession, you will find out why. Okay. Speaking of the confession. Okay. Big, big trigger warning,

because we are going to discuss, I mean, Josh admitted everything right away, and he explains what happened, and it is gruesome. So Detective William Taylor was the one who picked Josh up from school the day that Maddie's body was found. Did they let him finish school? No, they went and picked him up in a class.

Okay. Got him at a class. I think he was in geography class or something. Stupid. Took him back to the police station, and they started questioning him. Basically, what they said to him was, Hey, Josh, your mom found Maddie's body in your room.

Oh, like you want to tell us what happened. So his father was that his parents were present with him when they questioned him. Because they don't have to be. Yeah, they have to be, but that doesn't always happen. So his father was the one I guess who encouraged him like tell the truth throughout. Yeah, you tell them what happened. And they said later they asked like was he like being forceful? Like was he scaring him into it? Because they're trying to figure out the dynamic here. Yeah. And they did say no, he was not forceful. He was just telling him like you

have to tell. Yeah. And he decided to make a full confession. Okay. So he said that day, Maddie had come over to his house and wanted to play with him, but he said, no, I'm busy. I have a lot of chores to do. Mm-hmm. Now, he said he had a shit ton of chores. He said like something like 22 chores

that were on his list for that afternoon after school. And his parents were like, yeah, we do assign him a ton of chores, but they were like, that sounds crazy, but it's things like, you know, change the bird cage. You know, like little things. Feed the dog. Do this, you know, like little things.

And they said the reason that they gave him all these chores was to keep him busy between the time he got home from school and they got home so that he wasn't getting himself in trouble. Board and sitting on the computer. And hiding in some of the space. But they also still kind of seem like they were like a little much. That's a little much.

Like I think that goes along with the strict disciplinary and like... 22 chores as fuck. We're going to give you 22 chores when you get home from school. I can't imagine assigning, I don't have kids obviously, but I want to know. That's a lot of chores. Someday I'd feel like an asshole. That's a lot of chores. And they also said that once a week he had to cook dinner for the family That's which I think is crazy because to be honest. I don't want a 14 year old good. I don't want a 14 year old cooking for me

So yes, so they said yep, he did have a ton of chores to do But then Josh said well, I decided I didn't want to do those chores Chores any city just wanted to sit on the computer and like surf the web. Watch Gross, Pory. Well, computer records showed that from 422 to 457, he was on porn sites. Many of them involving images of children in torture. So that's really bad.

I don't know what to say about that. No. Josh said around 515, so he was off the computer at this point. He said, Maddie came back to the house when he was in the yard raking leaves, because that was one of his stores and he decided to go back to them. And she came to the fence that was around their house and said, do you want to play baseball? No. And he was like, you know what, she's not going to stop. So yeah, this is according to him. Okay. So he said, okay

You can come in the yard, but only for a little while because he said, you know, if my dad finds out that you're here He's gonna be mad and I don't want him to be mad at me. Okay, so He's just not to begin with. Well in dad said, quote, he testified to this. He said, quote, when we're not at home, he's not allowed to go out and play. He's not allowed to let any bone in. Which is very understandable. 100%.

So he was like, yeah, I would have been pissed. So he's not supposed to be out playing. So they did start, they took turns. They were pitching and hitting the ball with each other. The space they were in, Josh said, was only like, there was only gonna be like four feet between them. They were pitching and hitting a baseball to each other. That's a little.

So he said he had one really strong swing and because he really wanted to hit the ball and he said he accidentally hit her near her left eye with the baseball. Okay. She got a huge gash in her forehead and she fell down, started crying and like screaming loudly. So he got super scared because he was like she's not supposed to be here and now I just gashed

open her head. Right. So he said he tried to clean the blood which I love the first thing he says he tries to clean the blood off the ball is best. Oh it's nice. I'm like yes. Definitely do that. And then he put it inside the house. With his leg turned along. Well, he said she was still yelling and screaming because she was in pain. And he said he didn't know what to do. So he said she started to quiet down. So he dragged her into the house and into his room. And he said he was so scared that his father was going to be mad at him for playing with her, that he panicked. And he said she was bleeding like a ton from the gash. Wow. Still crying really loudly. So he said

he tried to stop her by putting his hand over her mouth and like telling her stop crying. And she terrified her even more. Exactly. So she kept screaming, she's crying, she's making a ton of noise. So he said he just had to shut her up. So he said he took the baseball bat and he hit her in the head with a strong overhand swing. Overhand.

So he said she kept going. So he hit her a second time. Oh no no no no. And he said quote jamming the end of the bat on her head and then he hit her a third time. Now, he said this was a full strength bat swing to the head. Was this like a metal base for all that? I believe it was wooden. Now, the coroner later said that these head injuries would have eventually killed her anyway. Like, if that was just it, that would have killed her. That wasn't just it. So Maddie was apparently whimpering and moaning still slightly. So he said she was still making noise.

I'm going to start crying. So I took my knife that was on the bookshelf and he stabbed her twice in the neck. He said the whole time, Maddie was basically not... This is according to him and nobody believes this. He's saying she wasn't fighting back or trying to escape. Which I don't believe. No.

He's still panicking, and now he said he opened the side of the water bed, and the side wouldn't panel underneath the water bed, and he put Maddie under there. Now, he has blood all over him, so he said he went into the bathroom, he cleaned up. He, like, basically like basically like showered. Yeah. And he said while he was cleaning up, he walked by his bedroom and he heard Maddie still moaning under the bed. Oh my god. So he reopened the bed. No, he took her out and he stabbed her in the chest nine times until she stopped breathing. Then he said he put her back under the bed with his feet. He closed the panel and he heard nothing else. 5.35 pm his dad

came home from work and made dinner. What the police asked him next where they said, okay this is all well and fine. Like it makes sense what you're saying. Like it makes sense what you're saying here. It's adding up. And he said, they said, what about how she was dressed? Oh, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. So when she was found, she was naked from the waist down. Oh, no. Now Josh says her shorts and underwear came off when he dragged her into the room. Doesn't make any sense.

Where they're like buttons. And it's like, that doesn't make any sense. Where they're like buttons. And it's like that doesn't make any. It just doesn't make sense. They didn't come all the way off. No. Both of those things. Maybe they'd be a little rye, but they would not be off all the way off.

And he said, her shoes came off when he shoved her under the bed the second time. Like her shoes just came off. Yeah. No. So it's like her underwear and her and her shorts came off her while you were dragging her with her shoes. She just didn't

over her shoes. Right. No. And he said, he remembers the shorts being down when he got into the room but he said he wasn't sure of her underwear. Also, her shirt was, and this came out in trial, her shirt was pulled up on her chest. And they said she was stabbed nine times in the chest, and there were no stab wounds to the fabric. Okay. So yeah, yeah. Also, her shorts and underwear that he say says fell off when he was dragging her were placed beneath the mattress on the wall side, which means they were put in there first, and then she was put in there. Which if you put her in there after they had already fallen off, you'd probably just throw them in after her.

Unless you had already taken them off. And then you'd put them in first. So it's like, that's not true. Yeah. And then you'd put them in first. Right. So it's like, got you. That's not true. Yeah. Oh, this is really fucked up. Now, he said that night that this all happened.

He said there was a knock on the door right after this all happened. And it was Mrs. Clifton. And she was knocking on the door yelling for Maddie. And his, and Josh's father said I didn't even know who really, who Maddie was at first. Like, I was like, wait, what? Like, you know what I mean? I think I know she is. Like, I think he plays with her.

So this is when his father called Josh and was like, you need to go out and help look for her. And he was like, okay. So he did. He left and he went out helping looking for her. Uh, and psychotic. Yeah. So Josh said to the police, I slept all week on the bed. That And psychotic. Yeah. So Josh said to the police,

I slept all week on the bed. That's fucked up. Yeah. He said on Wednesday, he put the tape on it because he could start smelling her. And he said during the week, he would burn incense.

He would use the plugins, the aerosols, like anything to mask the odor. And he just didn't know what he was going to do. It's a fucking weirdo, dude. And he said he used transparent tape to go over the corners of the partition first,

but then he used black tape on top of that to reinforce it. And when they asked him, like, what did you think you were gonna do? Like, what was your end game here? He was like, I have no idea. Like, I have no idea. And they were like,

we literally just gonna let her decomposed a dust under your bed. And he was like, yeah, like I have no idea. And they were like, we literally just gonna let her decompose to dust under your bed. And he was like, yeah. And I think he was literally like, yeah, I don't know. Like, I don't know what my endgame was. And eventually you were gonna get maggots under your bed, bro. Yeah. I mean, I'm surprised no bugs were there to begin with.

Ew, ew, ew, ew. But they did ask the sheriff, they asked him like, you know, what was it like finding that? Cause that must have been awful. Yeah. And he said, he said at, like, you know, what was it like finding that? Because that must have been awful. And he said, he said at that point, you know, decomposition has started. And he was like, it's the worst thing I've ever seen in my life and will ever see.

Like he was like, I can't imagine sleeping on top of that. Which is, that's the part that just boggles the mind. You know, this is gonna sound so stupid, but you know, like when you're when your foot comes out of the cover and like you think a fucking ghost is gonna come get you. Like I didn't kill anybody and I think that. Yeah, there's a corpse under your top of a corpse and you're not freaked out.

Yeah, it's like crazy. Now four days after she was found her funeral was held. It was on Saturday, November 14th, at the San Jose Catholic Church in Jacksonville. 1200 people came and hundreds more outside the door. At the funeral, because I just wanna put this out there because people should know more about Maddie.

Yeah. Not just about Josh. I feel like it's gonna make me cry though. I said she loved to giggle, but they described her as tough as nails. They said she was very vibrant. She liked to play hockey, football, basketball, but she also loved to dance and play piano. Mm-hmm. So again, she's like the most well-rounded, just like cool chick. Yeah. Oh, a neighbor said she was an amazing little girl. She could be a little

ballerina at one time and a tough football fall back at another time. And when she talked she made sure you listened. She was a very sweet little girl. And then another neighbor said everybody loved her. And when they asked later, Josh, when they asked him, they were like, why did you kill her? Like, why did you go through all of that? Like just because you were scared of your dad, like that, I don't understand this his answer was I don't know I don't think I have the answer Maybe I should get some kind of counseling or something to find out what's wrong with me Yeah, so it's like this like super goofy normal Friendly kid just all of a sudden turns into like yeah, I don't know. Maybe I should get some counseling. And it's like, what?

So none of your dark passengers sit like leaked out at all until this one moment, which which finds all what it is like it's like, what are you? Like he's an extremely, he's an anomaly of nature. He truly is. Because it's none of this is precedent. You know what I mean? It's just very weird. So on to the trial, I'm just going to give you a couple things about this. It's Wednesday, November 11th was like the first, you know, hearing. He was held in DuVal County Juvenile Detention Center and he was held in isolation.

He was held there until the trial in August 1999. And it was because they were scared of his safety, basically, they had to put him in isolation. On November 16th, the state attorney Harry L. Shorestein went on record and said the state plan to try him as an adult. Wow. Good. Which is crazy. I don't mean crazy, like they shouldn't have. It's just crazy. It doesn't happen. And he wanted the grand jury to indict him on a first degree murder charge.

On Thursday, November 19, 1998, he was indicted for the murder of Madeline Ray Clifton in the first degree. And Florida usually gives the death penalty for that. But because of his age, he could only get life in prison, which is without the possibility of parole. He entered a not guilty plea. That always is like, at first you're always like, fuck you, you'd mediate it.

I never understand that. There's always legal mumbo jumbo that goes along with that. I think it's so stupid. Yeah, it is. It really is. So the trial was scheduled for April 5th, 1999, and Judge Charles Arnold was presiding over the child. You know, there's thought of not guilty because of insanity. Yeah, that's something like that.

I think that's kind of what it is that leaves you open to do these things. Because as soon as you say guilty, you're fucked. This just says medical examiner. So the medical examiner was Dr. Floro and he gave his testimony about what he saw happening. So again, trigger warning, we're going to talk about like the medical examiner's findings, which can get a little gruesome.

He said there were three separate attacks on Maddie. Like Josh had admitted. The three blows. Yeah, like the blows with the bat, the stab to the neck and the stab to the chest. So he said it was consistent that the lacerations on her head were caused by a baseball or some similar object. He said that he agreed there were two stabbings to the throat, nine to the chest, and the abdomen area. He said he was unsure, he wasn't able to tell for sure whether the throat injury happened first or whether she was hit over the head first. Like Josh was saying she was hit over the head first, then he cut her. Yeah. He said he wasn't, he didn't feel comfortable saying

that that was absolutely true, but he said either way, both of them happened. He just didn't, he didn't want to totally agree with Josh's version. He said, the blood spatter on the ceiling fan does indicate that she was obviously struck in the head in his bedroom, and that it was an overhead swing and blow in pullback.

So that's where that spat. Like he came down, he pulled the weapon back and it sprays into the ceiling. Right. He said there was an injury near her eye that could have been caused by the baseball, like he was saying. Yeah.

Because it was, he said it was like different than the other ones. It wasn't like he didn't crack her skull. Like the baseball bat did. Yeah. But he said the baseball, that could have been him telling the truth that she was, like the baseball bat did. Yeah. But he said the baseball, that could have been him telling the truth that she was hit with the baseball.

Okay. This part's a little rough, just like emotionally, I think. Well, this whole case is, yeah. This one part just kind of like gave me the heaps. The heaps, yeah. So when she came for autopsy, they noted that each of her hands were encased in a bag that was tied at the wrist. That was done by the crime scene technicians. That's what they do. They encase your hands in a bag.

So that said nothing about your hands. Well, and also if you have any DNA under your fingernails or anything, they need to protect that. So they do that. So he did indicate that that had happened. And then he said when he opened the bag, there was a bracket that was in the bag. This bracket was part of the bed, but only three were accounted for when they searched the crime scene. So what they thought was, he said, it wasn't in her hand, but it was in the bag with her hand. So he said, what he thinks is that at one point, she was holding that bracket. So he said she was thinks is that at one point she was holding that bracket.

So he said she was trying to get out. What that seems to be is that she was still alive after she was pushed into the bed the first time. So his version of events where he says he could still hear her. Yeah. She was trying to be sure. She was trying to be sure. And not only was she alive, but she was trying to get out. Oh my God.

He did say that all nine injuries to the stomach and lung area were inflicted post-mortem. So what he heard after that, like whatever time he's, because again, his version of events might not line up with what actually happened. Because what you're saying is that he said she was still moaning, so he pulled her back out and stabbed her. And stabbed her and stabbed but in all reality he stabbed her after she had like there's no way she had She was fine. Yeah, and what could have happened was she could have made a noise just as you do

Sometimes it can happen, but it's like he could have or it could have been a totally You know, he just wanted to stab her. Yeah, it could have been any kind. So that's what he's saying. He's like, I don't know exactly what he's saying. What he's saying, the injuries are consistent with what he's saying. It just might not be how he's saying it happened or why he's saying these injuries happen. Because he keeps saying it's just to keep her quiet.

Well, when he's watching all these violent torture things, yeah, so the jury deliberated for no, I think just under two hours and they convicted him Josh Phillips who was 15 years old at the time of first degree murder. Yeah, which was pretty unheard of for his age. Now, they did have a doctor, Dr. Oshia, I believe his name was, he was not super established as a doctor. He was like just

at a medical school. Okay. He did find a bifrental lesion or a couple of them on Joshua's frontal lobes. So what does that mean? It can basically be linked to unexplained violent outbursts in teenagers because your frontal lobes are not fully developed. So if they're lesions, they have lesions on them that's going to cause issues. They wanted to use this in court but they didn't end up using it because one, I think they were a little concerned with like his credibility, the doctor, not that he wasn't a good doctor but he didn't have a lot of time to him. And then also he was far away and they needed him to come to testify and he wasn't willing to do that. Okay, so scratch that. That, so like,

So, scratch that. That's something, at least. Like, there is an abnormality on his frontal lobe. Okay. Nothing is really conclusive about what that means. Okay. So, August 20th, 1999, he was up for sentencing. When this is when his parents and Maddie's parents could get up and like give statements. Oh god.

His Maddie's mom gave a statement that just like hurts your entire life. Her name. She said quote, no one or nothing can look up at me with those big brown eyes. Pictures and memories. That's all I've got. I will never see Maddie play again. I will never see her fulfill her dreams. I will never kiss her, tell her I love her and send her out to play again. I will never see her fulfill her dreams. I will never kiss her, tell her I

love her and send her out to play again. Like that's it. I just almost like I got that lumped lumped lump on my throat. He was luckily sentenced to life in prison without parole. And Judge Arnold said in his final statement to him, he spoke right to him. And he said, quote, I do not perceive you to be a child. Your monstrous act made you an adult. Yeah. And that's how I feel. I agree. You do an adult crime. You do the adult time. Yeah. Uh, he also went on to say, quote, I'm certain that on your judgment day, you Joshua Earl Patrick Phillips will be given a harsher sentence than I could ever impose. I love when judges say when they get like sassy as fuck like they just like laid it down.

I love it. I feel like that's a part of judge school. I feel like you have to take a class on that because they're also good at it. Yeah they are. Like so good like that. I was like yeah. I like it me a little chill yeah he did have a couple of of appeals because there were like laws that came about that the Supreme Court handed down and such about you know underage to be sensitive so in 2002 they appealed his life sentence based on the 8th amendment of the Bill of Rights that says excessive bail shall not be required nor excessive fines imposed nor cruel and unusual punishment inflicted.

And they were claiming sentencing a 14-year-old to life in prison with no parole. It's cruel. It's cruel and unusual. So is murder or trial? So the appeal court said, quote, we find no harmful error occurred at trial and affirm his conviction. Thank you, guys. For his sentence, Mr. Phillips' primary contention is that his chronological age renders his punishment

cruel and unusual. We do not feel that way. And his sentence was upheld. He went back in 2017, along with 79 other cases, like his, because this is when they went back to appeal based on the US Supreme Court's ruling in 2012 that it was unlawful to automatically send youthful offenders away for life. Because this law came, this whole ruling came into effect because they said science shows that the brain is not fully developed until you're in your mid-20s. Okay. So they said, an underdeveloped adolescent brain

can't make logical and rational decisions all the time and we can't put someone away for that when they haven't fully become a human yet. But it's scary to think that like, yes, the frontal lobe is your decision-making department. Yeah. But also, but there's other things that go into it.

Right. And those remain the same. Exactly. And what if we let you out and then another kid gets murdered because your brain is fucked up? Exactly. And that's like there's so many layers to this. Yeah. This is another issue.

This is not just a case of frontal lobe issues. This is not just a frontal lobe part. You can't, okay. You can't blame it on the frontal lobe. No, blame it on the rain. Blame it on the booze. Yeah. So now the court was, the court says that he was,

he's a model inmate, he's now a Buddhist. He has, yeah, cool, that's fine. You know who else is a model inmate? Catherine Knight, she skinned her husband a lot. Exactly. You know who else is a Buddhist? I don't know but but people are yeah But they use this to try to get his appeal in 2000. You know what he is a poser. They said his IQ is above average Don't care. He's in the top 85th percentile. He's received his high school diploma in prison. Cool. In 2003, the Department of Corrections certified him as a law clerk, and he got a diploma to

work as a legal assistant in law clerk. And you know, who didn't get to do all that? Maddie, because he killed her. Exactly. And it says he's using these things to help other inmates with their appeals. So he also teaches GDD. Science and math to other inmates for them to get their high school degrees. So they basically used all this as like, look, he's using his time well. That's what that was all about. I'm not saying that like, look at how good he is. Oh, I know. They're using that as like, he's using his time well and see, he's a different person. He's not that 14-year-old. I get the argument it's just like this crime is so gruesome.

Exactly. And so what I think I'm gonna do with my next mini-morbid is I want to dive further into that about minors being sentenced to life in prison and whether or not it makes sense. I want to go further into the science of that. I feel like it's a case by case situation. It is. Because the thing is if he had just, like if she had gotten hit by the baseball and like that incapacitated her and then,

like he somehow she died after that because like the ball hit her too hard or something like that, like then you scared, like that's one thing. Yeah, and like he didn't wanna say anything, you know what I mean, like, that's one thing. Yeah. And like, he didn't want to say anything, you know what I mean? Like, if that was a thing. And also, like, that's, that's not the only thing that happened. It went way further than that. It was, it was overkill way further than that. And what he says now about it, because he didn't, he didn't say word when he was like 14, you know, right. He was just sitting there looking at the floor. This is what he said directly to Maddie's parents. He's never apologized to them until now.

In 2017, when he was like, I feel like I can say something to them. He said to them, quote, I had no clue what life meant, what death meant, the depths of suffering that would follow one act. I had no inkling of how long suffering could last. I have lived long enough to understand what real suffering was. I did something horrible and I'm so sorry, I'm so sorry. Even now, after all these years, it is just so unfathomable that this all could have occurred. It tears my mind to know that I stole such a precious life from you, from the world. I wish I could take away your pain.

I pray every day that you are able to live your life in spite of the injury I have caused you. I'm supremely, supremely grateful to have an opportunity for physical freedom. If any joy arises in my heart, it's immediately tempered by knowing that these proceedings bring all of it up again, face to face, the horror that occurred in 1998. When I walk the rec yard of here in chains, I look to the skies through mesh wiring and thank God repeatedly for giving me hope. But my next breath is always devoted to wishing peace and healing to you all. Now to me, this seems like, yes, I think he is a different person than when he was 14, but I also think

That this is a guy who's very smart and knows what he needs to say. Yeah Maybe he is sorry, but sorry doesn't make it go away And it certainly doesn't mean that you should go walking the streets Like you know, I mean just you you're saying you're sorry You know what? The other thing is too, it's like before he killed Maddie, there was no inkling that like he said, like they're exactly. And right now it's like, oh, he's changed. It's like, we have no reason to believe that he would do this again.

Unless you just explode again. Right. Like you did the first time. It's exactly what we were saying before. How none of this leaked out even slightly. And then it exploded in the most horrific nightmarish way How do we know that won't happen again? And it's like all his teachers and is the the friends parents were like We never would have expected this so it's like what if it happened again in the prison system is like We never would have expected I was gonna and all the corrections officers and everybody in there's like you know the model in me

He's great. He's a wonderful person. I would never see him doing anything. Boom, something triggers him. So November 17th, 2007, Judge Wadal Wallace made his ruling. He says, I'm just going to read you a couple of little quotes. I'm not going to read the whole thing because it's a very long thing that he read. He said, so he went through a whole thing that said, you know, do I think that you're a different person than you were when you were 14? Yes, I do. Do I think that like, you know, it could be considered unfair to think that you should have all the answers of 14 and act accordingly? Yes, I do. Right. But he said, quote, but I think if you looked at the evidence as it was developed

and some of this was developed more after the trial than actually used a trial, I think if you looked at the evidence as it was developed, and some of this was developed more after the trial than actually used a trial, I think there's substantial evidence to believe that the young woman, Maddie, the girl, was lured over to Phillips' home with intent by Mr. Phillips to get her over there. She was not supposed to be in there and had no particular reason in the evidence here

to want to go to interact with Mr. Phillips or go to his house. So it looks as if this was a sexually motivated case in which the defendant lured Maddie with a sexual motive involved. That the killing itself was brutal enough and perhaps was motivated or rose from a concern about not being caught or keeping the young victim from running next door and reporting what had just happened. So he's saying, you, I think you molested her and then you killed her to shut her up. That's what I think happened because

they also, this was an um, because of decomposition, I think they couldn't tell if she was molested, but they did find semen. Oh. So either way they honor, they think that I think it was maybe on her clothing. Oh, God. Or it was at least in his, which indicates that he was aroused at some point during this. I mean, that's not good. No. So and all of that was kind of like a little confuttled because I think the DNA was a little tough. And not to argue that the DNA had just watched. Right.

And I'm sure you've heard the same clothes. That's the other reason I think they couldn't really determine because they were like, we can't tell whether it was they're not much for it or because she came over right after. So it's like, you don't know when it happened. God, that's really a lot. I know it really is. Well, I feel like I'm gonna think about this case.

Like that case really left an impact on me. So then the judge went into, you know, the overkill and that you kept going back, you kept hurting her. And he said, quote, so you have at least three stages of blows or stabbings to the child in order to affect the killing. Is this impetuosity like impetuous? Like were you just spontaneously doing this? Like no, you were making concerted efforts to

continue, right? Yeah. Is this the split second decision of young people with the bravado of a peer group around in a school fight or a neighborhood fight? No, it's something that was done calculatedly, carefully, coldly, with a plan in mind, a plan that goes bad. And then with time to think about what you're doing

or do something different, the blows necessarily bring about the death. We're done in stages, rather than one terrible split second bad decision to pull a handgun out, and then in the afraid of combat, the handgun goes off and kills somebody. Right. It's a very difficult point.

That's exactly. So after all that, he said, so when you take the into these individual characteristics here for all the circumstances is outlined, I think this justifies the sentence of life. And again, it is a sad day because I'm not on mine full about the fact that he was 14 years of age and that to lose your freedom of something you did at 14 is extraordinary. And that's why we've gone to this effort to have this hearing while the Supreme Court ruled the way it did, why the Florida Legislator acted and passed the sentencing scheme

that we did, and why I think this is rare. The jury verdict stands. The jury found the defendant guilty of first-degree murder murder and so the court then again adjudicates the defendant guilty of that crime as charged in count one of the indictment. So it was upheld and he is still gonna stay there. That's good. I'm glad. Now I think in 2023 he has another appeal. Do you know how many he has left? I don't know. I don't know how all this works because it's different from like parole. And it's different from like every state and all that. So he's eventually going to run out of appeals.

I just don't know how many you get. That is the case of Maddie Clifton and Joshua Phillips. That really did something to my heart, soul, brain, and stomach. In only a couple years from now, he's gonna be up in appeal again. I don't think he'll get one. I don't think he will. Because I think it's gonna be the same situation. Yeah, no matter what he says.

Because that's my whole point is like, it's not, it wasn't one thing that happened that you were like, oh, this one thing happened and now I need to hide her. Yeah. It was like, continuous. Because that's the thing. It's like certain things where you're like,

okay, he was scared. She, like, if he hit her, she wouldn't conscious. He thought she was dead. I mean, I don't know. Maybe because I can't wrap my own brand. The situation just would have had to go completely differently. It would have had to have more accidents written all over it. And it didn't.

The only accident that happened was he hit her in the face. And I would just wish that she like ran away to her mom. Yeah, just ran away. Oh. Or somebody heard her. I don't understand. And came running. Well, the other thing is it's like this was whatever time like a little after five, 30 or something. Yeah. It's interesting to me that nobody heard her screaming on the front lawn. But you know what? Then I think about it. And I'm like, okay. So at night when we're out taking walks and stuff, I hear kids screaming all the time playing. But. And I'm like, okay. So at night, when we're all taking walks and stuff, I hear kids screaming all the time playing.

But no, I'm saying it is hard to distinguish between a scream for help and what kids, cause kids scream bloody murder. Right, when they're playing. Cause they think it's funny. But I'm saying like the police and stuff went around and said like, did you hear anything? Did you see anything?

And I just feel like you would be like, oh, I heard us, I did hear kids screaming. Or like, some kind of thing. But maybe they said that. Maybe they said I heard kids screaming and they were like, do you know if it was Maddie? And they were like, I don't know. Right. I just heard kids screaming.

I'm just saying that could be like a loophole in the story. Like maybe she never. Yeah. I know she got a new face, but yeah, I mean, it could. So, yeah. Wow. So, this was a very long, many more bits. morbid buzzer. I hope you guys are okay. Yeah. So in the meantime of you putting your soul back together, you can follow us on Instagram at morbidpodcast. You can follow us on Twitter. A morbid podcast. Join the Facebook page. morbid colon. A true crime podcast. Send us an email.

morbidpodcast at gmail.com. Joining to the Patreon if you're feeling so inclined. patreon.com slash morbidpodcast. And also check out the website that my co-hosts are lovely designed. We do more than any sense morbidpodcast.com. We hope you keepoerbanySense MervidPodcast.com We hope you keep listening and we hope you keep it weird. No. I was gonna say no.

Just no. No. Just no bit right out of there. No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no listen to Morvid, Early, and Add Free on Amazon Music. Hey, Prime Members! You can listen to Morvid, Early, and Add Free on Amazon Music. Download the Amazon Music app today, or you can listen Add Free with Wondery Plus and Apple Podcasts. Before you go, tell us about yourself by completing a short survey at Wondery.com slash survey. slash survey.