Morbid - Episode 89: The Princes In The Tower Mini Morbid

Episode Date: August 25, 2019

It's a historical mini! This week's tiny Morbid is a good old fashioned mystery/whodunit. After a long journey through the hellfire that was Dennis Rader, I think we can all use something lighter and possible politically charged murder is just the ticket. The Princes in the Tower takes us back to Tudor England when there was a real life game of thrones happening and sometimes things and often people got in the way of throne succession. Sources: https://www.historic-uk.com/HistoryUK/HistoryofEngland/The-Princes-in-the-Tower/ https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/princes-tower-will-ultimate-cold-case-finally-be-solved-after-more-500-years-10466190.html This week's sponsor is Care/Of! Head over to TakeCareOf.com and use our code MORBID for 25% off your first Care/Of order.  See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

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of your home. Download the free Angie mobile app today or visit Angie.com. That's ANGI.com. Hey weirdos, I'm Elena. And I'm Ash. And this is a little teeny mini morbid. What? It actually might be a mini-morbid. Oh shit, are you changing the game? I might change up the game.

I don't know. You know why? BTK., drink a lot of you. It drained a lot of my resources. It drained a lot of my reactions because all I had left to say toward the end was like, what a fucking loser. It just, that was a draining case. I agree.

It really is. So this is going to probably be an actual mini morbid. It's stoked. We're not doing, it's like not your typical one. This is going to be like a little different. We're going like historical, which is kind of fun. It's a lean as many and I don't know what it is yet. It's true.

Today we're going to be talking about the unsolved mystery of what happened to the princes in the tower. I don't even know who they were to begin with. It's going to be fun. It's funny because I said to John today that I was like, you know what, after BTK, I needed to do something a little light and fluffy. And he was like, so the unsolved mystery of what happened

to two young boys who died in a tower alone is light and fluffy to you. And I was like, has he listened to this podcast? I was like, my barometer has changed, John. But before we get into the mini, we just want to cover a couple of little things. First, we still have tickets available for our live show November 19th, 2019.

Or second one. Our second live show. So be all seasoned and season and whatnot exactly because our October 30th one is sold out so go ahead and get your tickets for the November 19th show it is at AS 220 main stage in Providence Rhode Island it's gonna be awesome we're doing we're gonna come hang out with everybody after the show like we're gonna do with the October 30th one hell yeah it's gonna's gonna be worth it. So go get your tickets, you can get them at Event Bright and just look for morbid a true crime podcast live or look at our Instagram and click on the

link in the bio. Go get them. They're 20 bucks. Super cheap. And after you buy your tickets to the live show, you should probably go head over to Murderer Parallel to get a show. Nope, to get a shirt, to wear to the live show. Do it! There are so many fucking cool shirts. We have two featured on their site and you can use our code morbidmourybide. For 25% off. 25% guys. What did I name the zombie on the last shirt?

We named him. To name him Murray. Murray, yeah, Murray Murray the morbid Murray Morbin Murray. That's what's name is. Yeah, Murray the shirt where Merbid Merbid Merbid Murray Merbid Murray get that shirt Go get that shirt. I have had a long day It's been a long week guys. Oh shit. So yeah, go do that. Mitter apparel is rad.

Besides our shirts, they have an amazing array of true crime slash horror slash spooky, great shirts. I think I literally have them all at this point. So do it. So be like me and do it. Now, let's dive into the princes in the tower. Hit me up. I've never heard of this story before.

All right. So it's, it's a mystery. It's a mystery. I love a good mystery. It's a mystery. It's a who-done-it. Who did it? It's great. Are there theories? There's a lot of fun. I have two main theories.

I'm leaning towards one. I'll tell you when it comes. I love to make a final decision. That's my favorite part of the episode. The princes in the tower are what they are best known by, but strangely enough, that was not their collective given names. Why? They were not named the princes in the tower.

Both of them didn't share that name. No, they did not. We're here. The older ones name was Edward Prince of Wales, and his younger brother was Richard, the Duke of York. Edward and Richard. They were the two princes in the tower. Edward was 12 years old and Richard was about 9 or 10. Eddie and Dick. So they were little little guys. And that is the ages when their lives changed forever. So the prince's father was King Edward IV, and their mother was Queen Elizabeth Woodville.

King Edward IV died suddenly of an unexpected illness on April 9th, 1483, at the age of 40. Geez, Louis, yes, so it was really unexpected. Well, actually, that's pretty old back in the day. I know. Right, actually, he was like an elderly. Yeah, he was geriatry.

It was totally fun. Now before his death, he was actually King twice for two different reigns. I was like, how does that work? How does that happen? His first reign as King was from 1461 until the October of 1470. And then again from April 1471 until his death in 1483. In between, there was like a shit ton of infighting people, like just trying to snatch that throne from each other.

It was Game of Thrones. Love it. Literally. I'm here for it. He had a super significant claim to the throne though because both of his parents were descended from Edward III. You got to keep that bloodline close. You got to keep the Edwards and the Elizabeth.

So your mama and your dad, it has to come back from the same royal blood. You got to keep that bloodline close. You got to keep the Edwards and the Elizabeth. So your mama and your dad have to come back from the same royal blood. You know, you got to share that shit. His reign was actually pretty dramatic. He didn't just get the throne, even though he had such a good claim to it. His father was Richard Duke of York. And he attempted to take the throne from Henry IV during his illness, but he was killed in battle. Okay. So Edward, 18 at the time, was like, I'm going to avenge my father's murder,

and he was crowned king after overthrowing the king's forces and sending Henry IV to exile. So he was just like, here I am, bitches, I'm king. Okay. Yeah. He's also known for restoring like a little bit of chill to the country to England when they really needed it the most, because he took the throne after the infamous War of the Roses, which a lot of people might have at least heard of. That was a pretty terrible and bloody series of battles between the House of York and the House of Lancaster. Again, this is like straight up game. Wait, Lancaster, like, hello, like almost Lannister. Oh, fuck me.

I was like, I know you think so. That's the exact one. Lancaster. Wow, he is close. It sounds good. I'm one. One castor. Close. Wow. He is close. It sounds good. I'm embarrassed. And so it was between these two houses,

House of York, House of Lancaster. It was a constant struggle for control of the Throne of England. And it was 30 years of bloodshed. That's a lot of bloodshed. It's a lot of years of just spread and blood. One might say that's all of the bloodshed. Yeah, it's a lot of bloodshed. It's a lot of years of just spread in blood. One might say that's all of the bloodshed. Yeah, it's a lot of shedding of blood.

But finally, House of York became the controlling entity. So they were like, we got this now. Now obviously, leadership was shaken and the throne suggest succession was like a tricky matter now because it was a lot of, you know, there was a little shit behind this. Yeah. And it remained a tricky matter through Edward's death and the attempted succession of his son, Edward the fifth. Edward the fifth is one of the princes in the tower.

Oh, okay. So they attempting to clear the way to succession, Edward the fourth had declared on his death bed before succumbing to that mystery illness that he died of. He said, I want my eldest son Edward V to be king and his second son Richard was to be second in line. He just wanted to make sure this was clear. I'm just making sure nobody else can come me going this out of there. now that seems simple, right? He's the king.

He's dying. He gets to go airing his right solar. Right. He's just making sure. But he died and then they were like, not. Well, the issue here was that the boys were 12 and like nine. You can't be king at 12. So as weird as monarch, he's are about like everything.

And like when it comes to ruling, this was a problem. You can't rule as a minor. It's like when Tom and became king, but he wasn't really king. Same thing. Exactly. So Edward IV declared his brother Richard III, the royal Lord Protector of the Realm, which is some real game of throne shit, and I love it. There's a lot of realms. Basically, what a Lord Protector of the Realm is, they're basically regions that are taking the place of the monarch while they're unable to rule by illness, some other kind of thing, or if they're still a minor and they can't rule by themselves. The Lord Protector of the Realm will take over like government duties.

You got it. So little Edward V, one of the princes. Yes. His uncle Richard III was Lord Protector of the Realm. Okay. So he's acting as King kind of. So Richard the third, the uncle there, is likely feeling pretty powerful at this

point because he gets to act. He's essentially the king. Yeah. So without the title. Yeah, he's feeling the power. He knows this kid is 12. He's got a little ways to go before he actually becomes a lot of this dick to well right after King Edward the fourth death, his brother, you know, Richard III, Lord Protector of the Realm, he stays that way.

And he had Edward V and Richard, his little brother, locked in a tower, moved to the Tower of London. Okay. Now, at the time, this was not a bad place to be. He wasn't locking them in a tower or anything like that. To jump in the head of the grave. He's locking them in the goddamn tower. I'm like, I know it.

This is some shit. Now, to some the tower of London is best known as a prison, because after all, it was, it really was a prison for, I think, over like 800 years. During the tutor time, you were quote, sent to the tower before your execution, especially if you were like a threat to the kingdom or did something otherwise terrible. In fact, notable prisoners that were sent to the tower before their executions were Jane Gray, Ann Bolin, and Guy Fox. Oh shit. Now, the time when it was used as like the most gnarly kind of prison was between 1540 and 1640 and during this period there was something like 48 recorded cases of torture used in there. So they weren't just sticking them in a tower and being like,

are you gonna wait your execution? They were also torturing the fuck out of them. That's really fucked up. Now, I think the three forms of torture that were recorded used in the tower were the scavengers daughter the rack and the Manacles. Okay, so we know about the rack. So the scavengers daughter when I saw that I was like, what the fuck is that? We didn't cover that in our torture episode. Sure, I didn't. It was basically the opposite of the rack because it was supposed to compress your body. It was this weird triangular frame where the victims head would be in the top point. And the victims arms and legs would be at the other points in the bottom. So the arms would be in the middle, the bottom points were where your legs were spread. The tool would then be folded so that the victims body was forced into this weird

compressed and unnatural position, with their heads slammed into their upper thighs, basically. Oh. And it would force blood out of the, like all the facial orifices. I believe that. So it's a lot of fun. Back to the show.

Woo. The manacles were essentially shackles, so they could just be used along with any number of torture devices. So they weren't like really special. I was, just like, use, add this to blank. Yeah, for a fun time. For a fun, at a dash of manacles for fun. So yeah, it was a bad history within it, but at the time that they were, the two

princes were sent to the Tower of London, it was mainly used as a fortress and a palace. So it was, it was pretty of London. It was mainly used as a fortress and a palace. So it was pretty like luxurious. It was for royal. Right. It was so secure that often royal families held their most precious possessions there. And all of their children, such as their children.

And they would also hunker themselves down for safekeeping during times of like uprising and war in there. It was fancy. It was luxurious and it was super secure. Like really secure. So it was also a place where the kings of England would stay for a few nights before their coronation. So it had this nice noble like symbolic history as well. So sending two future young future kings there after their fathers and timely death was not weird or crazy

So this is all well and fine except shit went down after this what had to have because they're listening to morbid podcasts Of course, it's not like and then they went to the Tower of London and they had a great time and they became king Yeah, nope So apparently a member of the clergy claimed that he had some shit that said that the marriage of Edward IV and Queen Elizabeth Woodville was not valid. I knew it. I love how it's like, not valid. That's not what I was going to say. Not valid.

This would mean that the parents of these two princes were not legally married and therefore they were pastors. They had zero legitimate claim to the throne. Oh shit. Now interestingly enough, this would make it so Richard III, their uncle had a clear pathway to the legitimate claim for the throne. Who woulda thunk it. I wonder who paid that clergyman to say that.

Because of this debacle, Richard was like, don't mind a fidu. And he took that crown over a few weeks later. He was like, yep, that's mine now. Oh wow. So this changed things. Monarchs really are fucked. They really are.

So this changed a lot of shit. So the princes were initially sent there being cared for, being treated as royalty, staying in nice luxurious accommodations. But now they were held as prisoners in the, luxurious accommodations. But now they were held as prisoners in the Tower of London. But that's not their fault. 12 years old and nine years old. That's right. That's right. That's right. That's right. That's right. That's right. Yeah. That's right. That's right. That's right. That's right. That's right. That's right. That's right.

But that was never proven that they weren't legitimate. That's right. That's right. That's right. I think it's bullshit. Yeah, I mean, it sounds like bullshit. Yeah. That's right. That's right. That's right. That's right. That's right. That's right. That's right. That's right. That's right. That's right. That's right. That's right. That's right. That's right. That's right. That's right. That's right. That's right. That's right. That's right. That's right. That's right. That's right. That's right. That's right. That's right. That's right. That's right. That's right. That's right. That's right. That's right. That's right. That's right. That's right. That's right. That's right. That's right. That's right. That's right. That's right. That's right. That's right. That's right. That's right. That's right. That's right. That's right. That's right. That's right. That's right. That's right. That's right. That's right. That's right. That's right. That's right. That's right. That's right. That's right. That's right. That's right. That's right. That's right. That's right. That's right. That's right. That's right. That's right. That's right. That's right. That's right. That's right. That's right. That Now according to reports, Prince Edward V, the older brother, was especially depressed in like lonely and- I missed his parents. Yeah, and he wasn't in- and he was like completely, they said at one point it seemed like he was completely resolved to the fact that he was probably going to die. Oh wow. Like, because they grew up in this time, you know, where like they knew what happened when you were illegitimate

and you were, and they also know, knew what happened when you were a young king waiting to take the throne that you were in a really bad position and probably you weren't gonna make it to the throne. And Edward became like really resolved to the fact that they were just never leaving this tower because now they were locked in there.

Right. Like people said like they were a lot of siner and things. Like they were literally prisoners. Oh God. Of course, this is a mystery. Like no one knows what the fuck happened then. Because suddenly they just disappeared. And 1485 only two years after Richard III had just snatched that throne from his nephew's.

Henry Tutor came back with a full-blown army and was just knock, knock, knock him on Richard's door to take that throne again. Knock, knock, knock him on Richard's door. Thank you so much because in my head I'm singing that and I really needed you to do that. I just had to. I'm really glad we were on the same way. Play with me. Uh, and people either really fucking hate when I sing or they really love it.

So, but you know what to say? I really love it. You know what? To all of you? You're welcome. Every single one of you. Air buddy. Uh, so, so Henry Tudor came back and he's like, oh, hey, I have an army.

I'm a fight, you know, I'm a fuck your shit. So Richard only had two years of being king before Henry Tudor was like, no bitch. So the battle that ensued out of this was called the Battle of Bosworth Field. And Richard the third was killed in the fight. Bummer. Henry Tudor was like, cool thanks bro. And he became the king. That's fucking wild. Yeah, he was killed in the battle. Like, because I think he fought alongside. That's not really. To kings die a lot in battle. I feel like they're not normally in battle. I mean, I don't know. I don't know anything. I don't really know. But I don't know anything.

But so Henry the T, Henry the tutor. Henry of the tutor. Henry of the tutor. Henry Tutor was like cool thanks bro, and he became King Henry the seventh of everywhere. Like you just stepped over Richard the third and was like, yeah, I'll take that. He like took the crown off of his head

and like put it on his own. And put it on like struck a pose. It was like, oh, like, oh, hit pop. Oh, hit pop. Apparently, even he didn't initially acknowledge the two missing princes. So he became king. Because he was like, I don't give a fuck

and that's just gonna make things messy. Yeah, but he wasn't even like, oh yeah, they're gone, everybody. Don't worry about it. He just didn't acknowledge it. He was like, which ones? So it was, I think he did finally acknowledge it that they had, but he said they had been murdered.

Like he officially was like, they were murdered. Believe that. He did that in July 1486, which was a year after Richard's death. Oh, so a year after he killed Richard III, the boys' uncles, Oh, so a year after he killed Richard III, the boys' uncles, King Henry the seventh was like, I think those boys were murdered. And before that, he had said nothing about the mean even missing. But obviously, Ruma's was spreading around the castle of chaos. So everyone was just like, well, that's weird. Guess we just, I don't think so. And I think they're all just like, guess we'll just keep raining and killing and being royal and doing our thing for another couple of centuries and not look into that.

Like they just do- I mean, yeah. It was like back then. Yeah, maybe like, we're back then. You know kids, we lost a couple, that sucks. So one, and it's like hummed. No one's like, I wonder where those literal children went. Like no one is worried. They were like orphans, so like nobody cared.

And it's the same. Which is horrific. So, and one of them, it's like one of them was supposed to be the King of England everybody. Right. This is kind of a big deal. Kind of strange. I don't know.

Maybe it's a big deal. We should kind of look into this. The ghost of little Edward is like, oh, excuse me. I'm kind of a big deal. Kind of a huge fucking deal around here. I was supposed to be. No, they're like, who are you? So in 1674, when Charles the second had a come into power

at this point, because this was like 200 years later, I was like, who? Charles the second just came out of nowhere, 200 years later. Puss on a looking. I was like, who? Charles the second just came out of nowhere. 200 years later. Another. They started doing reds at renovations on the Tower of London. These construction dudes that were working, they're just doing their thing. They come across an aft ton of skeletons, two tiny skeletons. Okay. Yeah. There you go.

So a little less than an aft ton. Two. Well, I figured a lot of people died there. Two to be specific. They were clearly the skeletons of two children. Okay. These remains were stuffed under a staircase. Okay. Yeah. Like, they weren't properly buried or found in state. They were hidden. Oh, that's really sad. Now, there was also said to be pieces of velvet that were near and on their bones, like adhesed onto their bones. And at the time, it was not just anyone who was wearing velvet.

Yeah. Only fancy people, literally royalty wore that fabric. So it was that. So right away, they were like, these are not just two random kids. Right. So obviously at the time, people were like, holy shit, these are the two missing princes. But weirdly, in 1674, they didn't have forensic technology to determine that for sure. What a bunch of bullshit. They were really just like, what were they doing?

Slacking, doing nothing, chilling, just killing little kids to get the throne. Fucking be in Dix. Yeah. You know. So basically they had a guy who was like, yeah, it seems legit. I know what you're talking about. I know what you're talking about. For the last part, I wish I had said jousting. I like it. I like it. It's still good. Okay. So under that assumption that these are the two

missing princes, the skeletons were buried properly in an urn together. Oh, I'm glad. They're not quite final resting place was now the Henry the Seventh Chapel in the earn together. Oh, I'm glad. They're not quite final resting place was now the Henry the Seventh Chapel in the Abbey. That's where they laid for quite a long time. In the downtown Abbey? You know. But in 1933, so we're skipping head. 1933? Whoa, yes. That was so far ahead. Yes. That was so far ahead. You just like, y'all did I? What? Shut up.

I was like, whoa. Yes. Sorry. You were like, you know, in the 1600s and then in 1933. Like, I feel like you just went back to a past life where you were like really murdered in 1933 because you were like 1933. No. Not that year. Well, I wasn't gonna tell you. 1933 was a rough time in my life. Well, yes, 1933. Okay. These skeletons were exhumed from Westminster Abbey. Why?

And they were examined by Lawrence E. Tannery and William Wright. So Tannery was the librarian of Westminster Abbey and he's like a historian, he's very knowledgeable about this shit. Wright was an extremely respected anatomist and president of the anatomical society of Great Britain and Ireland. So that'll do it. So they have some, they have some cred. Yeah. They were both assisted by Dr. George Northcroft, who is a pretty respected dental surgeon who specialized in pediatric dentistry. Oh, okay. Cause they wanted to take a look at these bones

and see what the fuck's going on. So did they, no, there was no teeth anywhere, was there? Uh, I believe there was some teeth. What? So when they observed the bones, they said they were consistent for the ages of the princes when they went missing. And there was also evidence of damage to the nasal bone of at least one of the skulls. And a brown stain on the face of one of the skulls that they said the stain could be blood that was due from suffocation. Because they think that basically if they were murdered,

they were suffocated because if you were going to two killed two little kids in the tower of London, you were just going to suffocate them. It was just the way it was going to happen. Okay. You didn't really have enough. Like, according to everything I read, they were like, that's just what they were going to suffocate. According to everyone. It would be the number one thing. And basically the damage to their nasal bones was consistent with somebody pressing against their face with either something or their hand. And then how does the blood happen? Well, the blood happens because you're pressing against their face and

suffocating them and blood will shoot out of your nose and mouth sometimes when you've been suffocated. I had no idea. Yeah, especially if you're if they're pressing on their nose, they're breaking their nose, and that will bleed. That makes sense. So now that we have consistent for the ages of the two boys, it looks like there might be a stain that is consistent with blood that's

consistent with suffocation and this damage to the nasal bones. So as far as they were concerned, they were going to call a medward and Richard. Now they were put, I know I'll tell you more about it afterwards, but they were reinterred, like, so they could be buried again, like, respectfully. But now that they think they know that these are the two skeletons. There's some suspects slash theories that you have to talk about. Hit me up. I love a good theory. Hell yes. So the first suspect is Uncle Rich. Well, first of all, I watched this awesome show called Medieval Murders. Sounds fucking live. You can find it on YouTube, especially for this case. And it was fascinating.

I felt like really, when it was really funny to watch. But, and horrible, I'm sure. Totally. But it was, when I was fun to watch, I don't know why I said funny. I had a feeling. Wasn't that funny. I just knew people were gonna like,

like, curb stomp you. Yeah, like, it wasn't fun that it was like two kids that had murdered. That shows hilarious. But it was fun to see like, one, all these different like historians, friends, scientists, pathologists, they have criminal psychologists, and they're going so far back into like tutor history and stuff and like just trying to piece it all together. It's

like this cool mystery thing. It's really cool. We should go listen to it. So the first theory is that it was Richard III, their uncle. Right. He needed those two boys out of the picture in order to have a significant claim to the throne and become king. Uh-huh. He was Lord Protector for Edward until he was old enough to become king and rule alone. So he was never going to become king. It was just clear that it wasn't going to happen. Right. This kid was going to be king technically until he was old enough and then he was going to be king until forever. Right. And after him, his little brother had the connects claimed and thrown, so Richard was out.

So he was so apparently he was just a complete asshole as a king to boot. Oh, I believe it. Yeah, he wasn't a good king. Even for those two years. He just demolished people in his way. Like he was just one of those people. He actually had a close supporter of his brother and someone who had aided him in his own a session to the throne. Lord Hastings murdered. He also allegedly had Elizabeth Woodville's brother murdered to ensure he was not a problem to get used to. to ensure he was not a problem to get his kids through. So he was not above this shit. And this dude grew up around a lot of, you know, war and bloodshed and murder.

That's the issue. That's just like a typical Saturday. So this is, this makes sense that this is how he would see the world as I have to take out people who are in my way of something I want. Yeah. This is also a bummer because Richard III was Edward IV, so the two princes' father who died. It was his favorite and closest brother.

That's why he named him Lord Protective of the Realm because he truly trusted him. That would be like, if I named you Lord Protective of the Realm and you killed my kids. And then I just went and killed your kids and took the throne. Wow, you bitch. That would suck.

I'm so angry at you. You fucking pissed. I'm, ah. Like, poor Edward the Fourth is like, fuck. I made a bad choice. Like shit. I'm dead, but like, come on. So that sucks.

But so is everybody else. Well, apparently the two of them were like super close during their lives. And one of Edward the Fourth's first act as King of England was to promptly have King or Richard III knighted. Oh wow. Like that was one of his first acts was like Knight my brother. I would knight you.

I would knight you. Thank you. And then I wouldn't kill your kids. I wouldn't kill you, because. I promise. Um, he also had a trusted, so Richard III also once he had the two princes in the tower of London and all that good stuff. He had a trusted bro Sir James Tyrell. Kind of like Tyrell's in Game of Thrones.

We loved the Tyrells. We did love them. Marjorie. Um, and, uh, he was actually his master of horse, which I guess is a big deal. Okay. Doesn't sound like a big deal. The man I guess is a big deal. Okay. Doesn't sound like a big deal to me, but I guess it is. I guess it is.

I guess it is. People think that this was the guy who did the deed beforehand. Oh, no. Because he wasn't going to do it with his own hands, that's for sure. Oh, why? And in fact, Tyrell is said to have confessed to it in the 1502, and he did that when he was being tortured under King Henry the seventh for treason. So I mean, take it with a great assault because the other suspect is Henry the seventh.

Why is he the other suspect? So Henry the seventh is the second guy that I think might have done it. Okay. He's another guy who needed a better claim to the throne. Okay. His claim was weak and shitty, and the princes was way stronger, barring that whole illegitimate marriage thing because that was probably fake. Right. So because he defeated and killed Richard III in that Bosworth battle, but that would have allowed the princes technically to be the next in line still. Right. So he still needed them gone to become king. He could try to snatch it. But his claim just wasn't as legit as there need a legit claim. It's like your your shit is so weak. If you don't have a legit claim.

And those kids could be like, uh, no, my dad was king. We're literally next in line. Now remember Richard the third had his brother's kids all illegitimized so that he could snatch that throne. Well, that's so rude. Like as soon as that clergyman was like, I don't think their marriage was valid. He was like, cool. I'm the acting region right now. So I'm going to illegitimize all my brother's kids so that none of them can claim the throne. And then I get the throne. That's how he did. others' kids so that none of them can claim the throne. And then I get the throne. That's how he did it. So now apparently when Henry VII took the throne after he killed Richard III,

he had all of Edward's children legitimized again. Okay. But the princes were already missing at this point. So it didn't matter. So it didn't do anything. What's nuts here is that Edward IV had a daughter as well as these two princes. Her name was Elizabeth of York. She was the surviving child. Uh-huh. Now that the two princes were gone, Henry VII married her after he legitimized all of Edward's children again, he married her. And she was probably like 10. And boom, he was now sitting pretty with a legitimate claim to the throne due to his marriage to King Edward's blood. Wow. So it makes perfect sense that he would have them killed, right?

It's crazy. That was my mind being blown. In medieval murders that show that I'm telling you I'll do go watch, because it's fun. They talked to a criminal's profile named Dr. Kieran O'Keefe and they asked him whether it made sense that a dude like Henry VII would even have these children murdered in this way for that purpose. So he agreed that Henry showed signs of a true psychopath during his reign,

like he clearly was, and that he would engage in behavior that would lead him to remove people or obstacles from his way to get something he wants. In fact, he thinks it's more possible that someone of his psychopathy would get rid of those two princes ahead of time just to place suspicion on Richard to make his path to legitimacy even easier. So what's your idea? Well, I think at first I was like, it's got to be Richard III,

but I'm starting to think that it might have been Henry. Do you? Especially because he married that he legitimized and then married the remaining daughter. That is weird. And he did that after the princess were already missing, which doesn't make much sense. But if I have to say who stands to gain the most, in Beck Richard, it's Richard the third. Right. So I'm going to say, final answer, my final answer, or your final here, what's your final answer? My final answer is Richard. I'm going to, you know what? I'm going to, I'm going to say Henry.

Yeah, because of course, because he's a psychopath. I think he would plan that ahead of time. Yeah, maybe. Yeah, I mean, I could see both, but I just think Richard had more to gain. He definitely did so that that could sway me, but I'm gonna stick with Henry. Okay. Hashtag team Henry. That's my favorite boy name.

There you go. So just so you know, those two skeletons, like I said, were re-barried in Westminster Abbey and the mystery remains about what happened to the princes in the tower. I liked that case. It's, it's, it's light and fluffy. It was like Miracle Whip. It was just, you know, it was, it was historical fun. Yeah was just, you know, it was historical fun. Yeah, you know, child murder and mystery. I like it. I'm excited to see what pictures you post. And it is. I know actually what's what's funny is when I was looking up all the different resources for this case, there's a ton of like oil paintings of the two big houses and And like all of them are these two little boys that are looking off in like terror at something.

At their future. Or it's them laying in bed together and like two men are coming into like suffocate them. Like it's very dark. Very dark. I'm into it. And I was like whoa, tutor history, what up? Yeah, tutor history's rough.

And before we head out, we are going to thank some patronuses because we didn't thank our patronuses and our third BTK installment, because honestly, it would have made the episode like six hours long. And we retired. So, the first Patreon we'd like to thank is Shirley A. Husted. Shirley A. Husted. I bet that's not how you say your last name. You are not busted. You're not. You're the best.

I love you, Shirley. Shirley, thank you so much. I love you. Next up is Sula Elizabeth. Ooh, Sula Elizabeth, I just love you. You're just wonderful and I appreciate your donation. I appreciate it also. Thank you, Sula.

Next, I would like to thank Kristen Blackshaw. Kristen Blackshaw. That's like a, you have like a very gauze glass name. I like it. Bad ass. That's why it makes me feel pretty good. So thank you, Kristen. Then we would like to thank Lexi Leven.

Lexi Leven or Lexi Leven? Probably Leven. But I like to think of it as Lexi Leven conditioner. There you go. I like Lexi Leven as well. I like both. Either way, I like your alliteration. So I appreciate you.

And you know what, we like you Lexi. We love you Lexi. Thanks, girl. Thank you Lexi. Uh, next is Heather Mahoney. Heather Mahoney, you are not baloney. Huh, you are great. That's cute.

Thank you, Heather. Thank you, Heather. Then I would like to thank, ooh, and I like how you spell your name. Liana Tim. Ooh, Liana Tim, that's a pretty name. But it's Liana, like the end of my name. Ooh, I love that.

Thanks, Liana. Oh, Liana, thank you. Beautiful name. Love you, girl. Then we can thank Ruth McKinnon. Ruth McKinnon, what up? What's up, girl? I just love you.

What up, Ruth? Ruth, you're a baby Ruth, and that's a good... The second you said that, in my mind, I thought baby Ruth, but at the exact second that you said it. We are on the same wavelength right now. And it's because of you, Ruth McKinnon. So thank you so much. Thanks, Ruth.

Then we have Danielle Griswald. Danielle Griswald, you are a wonderful person and your last name is from a really funny Christmas movie. It is. So you are just, you're right. You're just right. So thank you so much Danielle, Merry Christmas. Happy holidays.

Then we have Bryndi Bush. Bryndi Bush. I just love that. I like it. I like it a lot. I think that just, that just feels nice. It does. Thank you Bryndi Bush.

Thank you Bryndi Bush. And her first name is Brynd. Brynd. I love that. BryndoubleN. That's pretty. I really like that. Beautiful. Thank you, Bryn Dubush. And her first name is Bryn. Bryn. I love that. Bryn Double N. That's pretty. I really like that. It's beautiful.

Thank you, Bryn. Thanks. Our last picture on that we are going to thank tonight is Jen Fan. Jen Fan. I am actually Helter Sweltering right now and I need a fan. So you came at the right time. Wow, Jen, serving all of our podcast, morbid needs. You are.

Jen, you're fucking great. Thank you so much. Thank you to everybody that donated to the podcast. You guys, we wouldn't be able to do this without you. And we appreciate you more than you can ever realize possible. Truly. You can't even realize it. You're beautiful.

You're the chesticles. Yes, you are. And if you would like to become the chesticles, you can donate to the morbid Patreon at patreon.com slash Morbid Podcasts. Check out pictures of little children screaming in terror because they're about to die. Follow us on Instagram at Morbid Podcasts.

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A true crime podcast because that shit is awesome in there. And if you weren't freaked out enough, you could go over to our spooky ass website, that'll lead to design.at. morbidpodcast.com. We hope you keep listening. And we hope you keep it weird. But that's aware that you're a two parents die

and then you become king, but you're not ready to be king yet. And your uncle's the king and he's like, ha ha, you can't be the king. I'm gonna be the king and then everybody's the king and then the other king tried to kill your uncle and then everybody dies. And then you're other king tried to kill your uncle and then everybody dies and then you're dead.

Yeah, don't do that. So weird. Game of Thrones. Lancaster. Bye. Bye. Hey, Prime members, you can listen to Morvid, Early, and Add Free on Amazon Music. Download the Amazon Music app today, or you can listen Add Free with Wondery Plus and Apple podcasts.

Before you go, tell us about yourself by completing a short survey at Wondery.com slash survey. What makes a person a murderer? Are they born to kill? Or are they made to kill? I'm Candace DeLong and on my podcast Killer Psychie Daily, which you can find exclusively on Amazon Music. I share a quick 10-minute rundown every weekday on the motivations and behaviors of the criminal masterminds you read about in the news. I have decades of experience as a psychiatric nurse,

FBI agent, and a criminal profiler. On Killer Psychie Daily, I'll give you my expert perspective on cases like the mysterious New York City drugings, breaking down Lori Vallow, a K-A Mommy Doom stays motives, and what drove Caitlin Armstrong to murder? I'll also bring on expert guests who add even more insight into these criminal minds. I promise you won't regret adding these 10 minutes to your morning routine.

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