Morbid - Episode 91: The Science of Fear Solo Morbid

Episode Date: September 22, 2019

It's Alaina's science corner time again! With Ash on a quick vacation and new baby Morbid finally here, our schedules have been crazy. So what better time for another solo science adventure with Alaina. Tonight, we discuss the science of fear. Why do some people love frightening things and others actively avoid them? We discuss the psychology as well as the biological factors at play here while also talking about extreme haunted houses and the level of commitment to a love of fear that they require. See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

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That's ANGI, or download the app today. Hey, Weirdos. I'm Elena, and this is a solo morbid. That's right, Ash is currently galavanting around Denver and you know I had a baby about a week and a half ago, so things have been a little off the rails, but we decided that I would do the mini morbid while she was away. And it's been a while since I did a solo mini morbid. So I thought it was about time

and it kind of worked perfect with our schedule this week. I promise we're gonna get back onto our regular full length morbid and then a mini morbid every week. I promise that's not going away. It's just a matter of figuring out what our new schedule is, which should be actually getting better soon. So don't worry, everything's going to go back to normal. And let me be the first person to say that you guys have all been so amazing. Like, I'm super hormonal and I won't cry, but I feel like I kind of want to, because you guys are so amazing. I really feel like I have like thousands and thousands of best friends that just have wished me well,

given me advice, told me how great I'm doing, just like wishing baby Luna well and I just, I can't tell you guys how much it means to me and to Ash, into John. And it's been really amazing to see. So I just wanted to tell you all, thank you so much for just being amazing and being you. We love you, weirdo so much and you constantly surprise us and humble us and make us love you more. So we love you guys. And thank you for being so incredibly patient and lovely as we kind of work the kinks out getting back on schedule here to our regularly scheduled programming, which will be happening very soon, I promise. One more quick thing is I just wanted to say thank you so much to everyone who sent me

little onesies and things for baby, including our audio boom family and our family at Murder Apparel. I have been completely overwhelmed with just love and wonderful vibes and babies so lucky to have so many people who just heralded her arrival into this world in such an amazing way. So thank you to everybody. You guys rock all of you. I feel so incredibly loved and I feel so incredibly honored to have each and every one of you as a part of my universe.

So thank you so much. I promise that's the end of the mushy stuff. Hopefully you're not like a brand new listener just tuning into this episode because you're going to be like, what is happening right now? Promise. This is the last mushy thing I'm going to say. So today, I wanted to take a little peek into the science of fear. As you've probably come to realize, if you listen to the show, both Ash and myself, especially,

absolutely love to be scared. Scary movies, haunted houses, spooky podcast tales, they're things that don't just make us happy. They literally, you know, feed our souls. They make us feel alive. As soon as, I mean, I love doing these things all year round, but when fall comes and it's just everywhere and it's in the air, it's like, it sounds crazy, but it really does make me feel just right in a live when fall comes.

I feel like this is my time. And I'm sure a lot of you feel exactly the same way because you're listening to this podcast. So I know you like some spooky stuff at least. And with spooky season, officially upon us guys, because fall is here. I thought it might be kind of fun to take a look at the science behind why we love spooky shit and why some people absolutely hate spooky shit. Why do I love scary things in the feeling of being scared as much as I do and why does

someone else literally go out of their way to avoid anything like that and find no joy in the rush of being spooked. I need to know. And so do you. Turns out there's actually psychology behind all of it. It isn't just something simple as like a personal preference, like I like mustard and you don't. There is not a ton behind that, but this goes much deeper than just I like this and you don't. There's a book written by sociologist Margie Kerr and it's called Scream, Chilling Adventures in the Science of Fear.

It's all about what triggers this fear response and why some people enjoy it while other people would do literally anything to avoid it, like I said. In one passage, she notes that the fear response obviously makes your heart rate increase and mimics all the stress, the classic stress response is physiologically. This reaction is something you either interpret as a positive thing or a negative thing instinctively.

She says in the book, quote, some might make a positive meaning out of that. They feel really alive, are grounded in their bodies, almost like how you feel after a really intense yoga class or something that focuses all attention into your body. For other people, they might interpret that almost like a panic attack where they're feeling a sense of loss of control over what their body is doing.

Now, obviously I happen to be one of those people that really feels alive and grounded in fear. But someone else, even you, listening, you might like to listen to this stuff, but you might hate scary movies and haunted houses, and that's cool. You don't find joy in it, and that's totally fine because that's just how you react to that physiological response of stress. Now, it's interesting about this quote when she says that people

interpret it negatively are likely feeling a sense of loss of control over what their body is doing. That's interesting to me because I myself am an intense control freak. Like, ask Ash or John, they can confirm that my need for control can sometimes be stifling. Yet I love fear and things that can safely incite that feeling in me. That's the key word though, safely. What Cur is explaining as a loss of control is actually a complete feeling of control to me. See, the best part of a haunted house and the best part of

scary flex to me is that it isn't real. I can bring that beautiful fact to the forefront of my brain at any time to make myself feel, you know, more at ease and enjoy the situation because I know nothing bad is going to happen to me when I watch a nightmare on Elm Street. But the fear of knowing what it might feel like to have it happen to me is enough for my brain to be triggered and for my body to react appropriately to the threat, no matter how innocuous it actually is. So even though I know Freddie Krueger isn't going to come

and slice me up with his razor fingers, the thought of that happening can send my body into that response, which brings all that fun stuff that we're going to talk about in a minute. But in my head, I still know I'm safe. I'm in control. This isn't happening. So it kind of gives me like, both sides of it, the stress and the euphoria of knowing I'm safe. Now this whole feeling and process all stems mainly from a part of your brain called the amygdala, and Harkin's back to a primal survival instinct that chills in your brain's limbic system. This little set of organs, the amygdala, sits in the temporal lobe of a brain and

they are adept at taking a look at something that's happening in front of you and around you and determining what kind of response this thing or this situation deserves. So your amygdala is the one that's sitting there going, whoa, shit's going down, let me figure out how I'm supposed to react to this shit. It is the emotional processing center. It uses all of this information that it's detecting and taking in and that is what it's using To trigger that flight or fight response when necessary It's that fear response that usually gets that fight or flight response to trigger

Our bodies then completely adapt to what gives us a better chance of survival, which always fascinated me that your body, your brain can take in this information and then your body will go, okay, what do we need to do to make sure that we survive here? What kind of physiological things we need to increase your heart rate, we need to do all this stuff to make sure you survive. And just a little side note, when I had the twins, I lost a lot of blood. And I needed to get two transfusions. Now, while this was all happening, my kidney shut down. And the reason my kidney shut down was because my brain was looking at it like, what can we do here to maintain our energy and to keep this body rolling basically?

So my brain shut my kidneys down to make sure I survived, basically. In that idea, obviously everything worked out fine. But that whole thing always fascinated me that my brain looked at the situation. Basically, I was like, I need to consolidate my energy. I need to consolidate everything that's going on in this body and something needs to go. And it boom, kidneys, see you later. Kidneys are working fine now, thanks. But it's kind of the same thing. Your body looks at the situation that's going on.

It's a stressful, threatening, you know, nightmare situation. And it says, what do we need to do to survive here? What do I need to activate? What do I need to bring to a more chill level? What do I need to shut down? What do I need to get moving faster? Like, your brain is pretty fucking awesome, guys. So bodies are amazing. When the flight or flight response sets off, there's a chain of events that occurs biologically. First, when the amygdala detects a threat, the amygdala is like, hey, hypothalamus,

there's something afoot. And the hypothalamus then really earns its paycheck because it starts just fucking delegating tasks out to your body like a captain. Your hypothalamus is like, you there, you do this hormones that way. Like it's literally just like, all right, I got it. Like I'm bad at delegating. Hypothalamus could teach me a lesson or two because they are right on that shit. So once the amygdala is triggered, it's going to also release hormones

that are going to stimulate your sympathetic nervous system. This immediately provides you a burst of energy to either get the fuck up out of that situation or to fight like a boss. When this is stimulated, the next chain of events is the adrenal glands getting stimulated. And the adrenal glands are going to trigger the release of adrenaline, known as epinephrine, and noradrenaline, or norapinephrine. Adrenaline will increase your heart rate, which will pump blood quickly to the muscles, the heart, and other organs that you need to fight or run. It will then increase how hard the heart squeezes

when it beats, dilate the pupils, and it helps you to relax the smooth muscle lining in your airways, because that improves your breathing and makes sure you get a huge gulp of oxygen with every breath. This added oxygen coming your way gets delegated to your brain immediately to increase your alertness and response rate. Like what? So literally your smooth muscle that is lining your airways and your lungs relaxes instinctively to make sure you're getting more oxygen to keep you alert and help you breathe better to fight or run. Now, while all

of this is going on, it will also be adrenaline and noradrenaline. We'll also get all of the glucose and fats out of storage in your body, and they're going to circulate them around your system to give you a further burst of energy. Like, that's insane, guys. That's insane that your body is like, I know exactly what needs to happen here And it's gonna give you a surge of energy to get the hell out of there. It would have fight Nor adrenaline will do a lot of what adrenaline does But it's also going to narrow your blood vessels and that's gonna increase your blood pressure Now all of this is awesome

But it's not a one-size-all fits response. Some people have a much more sensitive amygdala than others. And not surprisingly, if your amygdala is more active, then you likely experienced some sort of trauma in your early life to make it that way. Of course, it can just be that way, like from the jump. So there is a large nurture component here, but also a small nature one as well. But it is tied a lot of times to trauma in early life. The point is you can create a more active amygdala in a child by abusing them, basically. So don't do that. I think a lot of the lessons learned in this podcast stem back to don't abuse your children.

So don't do it. Just don't do it. The activity level of your amygdala can be the culprit which either allows you to enjoy the fear response or to be terrified and upset by it in a bad way. If you hate it, then all of these heart rate increases and blood pressure changes are going to trigger anxiety and stress Which you'll just lead to a straight-up panic attack instead of the euphoric feeling of being scared in a controlled environment So those are the people that are going through the haunted house and end up having to be escorted out. They're just not feeling it There is also another part of fear and this physiological effect that it has on you that can determine whether you dig the fear experience or not. It's something called the excitation transfer process. Now this theory was first proposed by Dolph Zillman, which is an awesome name.

I feel like if your name is Dolph Zillman, you better come up with a theory about fear response, because I want nothing more and nothing less for you, Dolph. This is kind of a cool and like crazy theory. So in his 1996 paper called sequential dependencies and emotional experience and behavior, have you heard of it? He explains the chain of events that leads to the eventual emotional state after dealing with a scary experience. So when you encounter fear like a disturbing scene from a scary movie, your brain goes through the whole shebang that we already discussed. Now your system is all crazy. You are, you know, probably shaking. Your heart is beating really fast. The surge of adrenaline has you just ready to lose it.

This is the immediate biological response. But now your brain switches to cognitively understand that this disturbing scene is just that. It's not real, and it's not part of your life in reality. So this switch from immediate primal need to fight a flight to cognitively understanding the situation as safe or even silly now forces your brain to attempt to register a new emotion instead of fear or panic. Now it needs to shift this emotion because it looks at it and it says,

well, fear and panic is not the appropriate emotion to have here, like this is bullshit, because this is just nothing. So your brain is like, no, no, no, I need to get this right. So instead of fear or panic, now it needs to shift to relief or maybe even joy if you are someone who loves being scared. It will likely switch to anger or unsettled feelings if you're not a fear fan because you're going to get angry that you felt that way. And you're going to get angry at all these biological changes. And you're probably going to be like, fuck this, the sucks. But if you love fear and you love being scared, then you're going to feel

relief, you're going to feel joy, pleasure. Now throughout this whole change and perception of the experience, be it negative or positive, the physiological response is still happening and still heightened. That whole pulse quit quickening, you know, pupils dilating, heart rate increasing, smooth muscles in your lungs, relaxing, all of this is still going on. So now it is still there, but it's being led by a new emotion instead of panic and stress. That those emotions are going to be like relief and joy or the anger and unrest. So the excitation you feel from the initial fight or flight response will actually heighten

the new emotion to kind of an extreme level. So now you're feeling either you forrically joyful from the scary experience or you're feeling over the top dread and unrest. This obviously is a pretty big effect on whether you enjoy or hate the feeling of being scared, because all those biological changes are going to make your joy feel euphoric. You're going to be like, that was the greatest experience ever. I feel high. I feel like out of my body, that was so fun.

I want to do it again. It's going to be over the top. But if you didn't like it, then you're going to feel this awful feeling of dread or anger, sadness or you know, disruption of some kind and it's going to be over the top for that too. It seems like it's kind of a kin to when you feel like at least it made me think of this feeling. It's kind of a kin to when you feel really sick or really hurt like when I scratched my, you know, when I scratched my cornea and it was like the worst pain ever felt. Initially it's awful and anxiety inducing and all that and it's just like you can't handle it and it's just the worst thing ever or when you feel like super nauseous and sick you're just like,

oh god, one of the saddest the worst thing ever. But when that pain goes away or that sickness goes away completely, you feel you fork. It's like you can't stop talking about how shitty it was to feel shitty and how great it feels to feel better. Like, have you ever felt like really shitty one night? You wake up, you feel great. And you just can't stop telling anyone who will listen, like, oh my God, I felt so sick last night, like thank goodness, that's over. I like, I felt so sick. I feel so much better, like you just are in this state of like euphoria that it's over. I feel like that's kind of what that is. It's like, you feel all these horrible feelings while it's happening and then when it's gone, like when the threat is perceived threat is gone, you're just like, oh, that was great. This is great. It's over. With that said, we really got to talk about a specific kind of scare that has really always fascinated me and fascinated by people who do those extreme haunted houses. The ones with no rules where it's like full contact and the ideas to physically

and psychologically just torture with you and fuck with you. It's voluntary torture. Now, this is where my fear response would tilt into the unpleasant realm instead of the pleasure reaction that I normally get from fear. Because again, I love scary shit and the feeling of being scared. But I also value control, like I said before. To me specifically, this is why extreme haunted houses would be my line that I draw. Because I like regular hunts because I have control.

I am experiencing the haunted house. It is not experiencing me. I do not want the house to experience me. I can enjoy my fear and anxiety because I know it has a limit and there is no real danger. It's only simulated and that is wonderful to me. That's where I live. That's my wheelhouse. These extreme haunted houses

literally function on removing the participants control. I am such a control freak that I honestly can't even fathom someone signing up for one. I mean, if this is your thing, then more power to you and honestly, I'm kind of an of you because my brain just can't even consider it a possibility. Like if you are someone who does these extreme haunted houses or wants to or anything like that, let me know. Tell me a story about it. Like email us at morbidpodcast.gmail.com because I want to hear your story because I'm like genuinely like impressed by you. We mentioned in a long time ago in another episode, like one of our very early episodes,

an episode of Dark Tourist that features David Ferria attempting to understand this very phenomenon. And I mean, I think it's been a while since we've brought up Dark Tourists, so let's bring it on back. Everybody go watch season one of Dark Taurus because there needs to be a season two, and you know, David Ferry is great. So go watch it. It's on Netflix, and it's really awesome. This particular episode that I'm referencing showcased McKayme Manor, which is seriously one of the most disturbing haunts out there for, I mean, a myriad of reasons. But McKamey Manor might be one of the ones that people have at least heard the name of

or know a little something about it. It's run and created by a Navy retrin named Russ McKamey. And it only takes a couple of participants a week. They'll only take a couple people to go through the tour. And before you can become a victim of this, you have to get a doctor to sign off that you're mentally and physically capable of handling the extreme shit that happens in there. Like legitimately, you need a doctor's note that says physically, your heart can handle it, everything else can handle it, and that your brain can handle it and that you're not going to absolutely lose your mind in

there. Then you have to have like a Skype interview with Russ where he determines whether you accept you into this horrific situation or not. It's like really concerned. And once you've passed all of these things, if you get chosen, because there is a waiting list from what I've read in different sources, something like 27,000 people long to do this. Yes, 27,000 people long are waiting to get chosen to do this. And when you hear what happens in there, maybe you'll be like, yeah, I get it. And maybe you'll be like, what the fuck? Once so once once you get chosen, Russ would like you to wear a onesie when you come for your torture because he says it looks

better in the in the videos that they take of your experience. That I mean, yeah, I get it. That it definitely makes it like creepier and weirder and it definitely brings like a whole, you know, because that's what he's trying to do. He's trying to make this disturbing and weird and off-kilter and all that, but it's like the onesies make it weird. I don't know why. It's just like to me, it's like it weird. I don't know why. It's just like to me, it's like, it brings some weird like baby element into it and I don't know. I don't know. Maybe I'm overthinking it. Experiences are what people love most about travel. With Viator, you can browse and book tours and activities so incredible you'll want to tell your friends. They offer everything from simple tours to extreme adventures in over 190 countries. There's something for

everyone. Download the Viator app now and use Viator 10 for 10% off your first booking. One app over 300,000 experiences you'll remember. Do more with Viator. Hey there fellow podcast listener, it's Elena and Ash and we're taking you back to the days before streaming services. Whoa. You know when you would come home from high school and it was only a few hours until that TV show everyone was watching was about to come on. Well, in 1999, that show was Buffy the Vampire Slayer. In our podcast with Wondery, the re-watcher Buffy the Vampire Slayer, we take it back to 1999. So get out your knee high boots

and paste that poster of Angel on the wall. It's time to enter the Buffyverse. Some of you avid morbid listeners already know what we've gotten store. Hey, Warrantos. Join us as we sway our way through Buffy's drama, action and romance. Episode by episode.

Spicy. Follow the rewatcher, Buffy the Vampire Slayer, wherever you get your podcasts. You can listen early and add free on the Amazon Music or Wondery app. Da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da So you have to bring a onesie and you have to wear the onesie and You show up to a location where Russ's goons who are volunteer actors just volunteer show up and Forcibly and violently kidnap you like they show up. They're wearing all kinds of scary shit like masks and you know fake blood and all this other stuff They like violently take you like rap duck tape around your face, like do terrible shit to you, like right off the jump. And then they literally toss you in the back of a pickup truck and can nap you and take you somewhere. So, and this is all before you sign a waiver. So this is already happening. It's already you've already you've crossed over.

Then once they bring you to the location that they're gonna start all this in, which in the article I read and I believe the Guardian, these people were brought into like a sewage runoff and they had to sit in this like drainage pipe and sign this waiver. So it was already starting like the psychological shit. You have to sit and you have to read aloud and sign a waiver that allows them to legitimately hurt

you and basically says that if you die during the experience they can't be sued. Yeah. They, I mean they tell you that we're gonna shave your head, we could break your fingers, you could, you're gonna come out with wealth like things are going to shave your head, we could break your fingers, you could, you're going to come out with waltz, like things are going to happen to you. And this waiver signing takes hours, by the way, when David Ferriad did it for Dr. Taurus, he said it took like five hours or something. And by hour five, he said he was already starting to like lose his mind. And he was like, I think this is just part of the psychological shit that they do, because that's what this is all about. It's definitely physical, but they really go after your psychological well-being, and this seems like this is the beginning of it. Once you've signed this

waiver, it really begins. And I'm going to be honest with you again, no judgment. If you're into this, again, I'm in awe of you. but I don't understand how you sign this waiver. A personally, I just could not sign a waiver that allows people to say, you know, we're gonna hurt you and break your fingers and shave your head and possibly kill you. It's just not something I'm into. Now this is, but once you sign it, that's it.

So it's happening. Now in the past, there was no safe word. Yes, no safe word. At that time, Russ was the one who determined when you were allowed to stop. So he was watching, he's filming, he's participating, all that good stuff. And he's the one who decides when you've had enough. That, I mean, I can't hand, and this also goes with like control. Like if you are at all control freak in any manner of the word, this wouldn't fly with you. Because leaving my fate and my enjoyment and my time and when it stops to someone else is just not an option for me. I couldn't, there's no way. I could, going in there, that would be the first thing that would terrify me and probably break

me completely is knowing that I didn't have control over when it stops. Now, they do have a say for now. But before you could scream, you could yell, you could beg them to stop. And they could still force you to participate in another few hours of torture before allowing you to quit. Like hours. So you could literally be done. You're done psychologically, physically, you are over this. psychologically, physically, you are over this. You have passed into a place where your brain is no longer part of your body and you are watching from an outside, you know, astral projection and like shit is really going down. And you could still be stuck in this shit for hours before they allow you to sign. That is I'm getting stressed. I'm having a fear response right now just thinking about that. And it's not a pleasant one. It's one of those like panic attack ones. He videos all of these experiences. So he videos you he gets right in your face through the whole thing

he makes sure you get right up close and video all the blood that comes out of your mouth, all the vomit that comes out of your face. All that good stuff. And you can see online these videos and these people are legitimately begging him to stop. And he's like, nope. And it'll, it just will ruin you. And again, now there is a stipulation that there's a say for it. So now you have to tell him what you're say for it or phrases. Once you say that, say for it. So now you have to tell him what your say for it or phrases. Once you say that say for it or phrase, it's all over. You'll stop. And apparently, he stops the whole thing now. And you get a cookie and a blanket and like some water.

And he like comforts you. Which is so odd. And if you watch the David Ferrier in the a doctoris episode, because David quits like 22nds into the whole thing. And once he quits and David becomes like emotional, Russ is like this doting, like rubbing his back and being like, you're okay buddy, you're all right. Like he turns into this like weirdly like empathetic, it's very bizarre and it's like he goes from the sadistic like, I'm torturing you for fun to let me comfort you. And it's very odd and I don't know how to handle it.

This whole tour is supposed to take eight hours, eight fucking hours is what this is supposed to get to the end of this. To come out and say I did the entire McKamie manner. Extreme Haunt. It would be eight hours. And during this whole thing, the actors have to take breaks. Like they have to go and shift because they're exhausted, because they've been torturing you nonstop. Because that's the other thing. They're not letting you have moments of like peace. They're constantly like hammering you because they're trying to exhaust you into just compliance and and just to break you. No one to this date has ever got all the way through the eight hours, which does not surprise me on any level. Now, if you are a participant of this, if you agree to do this, they, you will be slapped, kicked, dragged, spat on, force fed,

all kinds of things, including rotten food. You will be buried alive under like feet of under feet of dirt. You will be water-borted. You're going to be subjected to extreme temperatures. You're going to be humiliated the entire way through. You could also get your head shaved, your eyebrows shaved. Literally nothing is off limits. And I mean nothing. And one thing I found out that really deeply deserved me about this, and maybe wonder even further how anyone would be able to do this, is that often people gag and vomit during the cellar short deal, because they put you through a lot, and, you know, the human body can only do so much before stress will make you vomit.

Well, if you vomit, the actors will force you to eat it. Yep. All this is videotaped and posted by RossOnline. And the thing that concerns me even further is the fact that he doesn't charge for this experience. even further is the fact that he doesn't charge for this experience. It's free. You have to go through all that stuff, like the vetting process and all that, but it's free. You don't pay any money unless you want to. He only requires dog food as a ticket for entry, and this is because he loves dogs and donates the food to dog charities, which is wonderful and commendable. But like, and donates the food to dog charities, which is wonderful and commendable. But like, why does he charge for it? Like, I feel like that makes it weirder. Because at least if he was charging for it, you'd be like, well, he's making money.

No, like, he's just doing it for fun. And in the dark tourist episode, where David lasted, like, you know, the five minutes or whatever. Russ seems so goofy, like I said, and like good natured outside of the experience. And what's even weirder is in like a silly twist, he hates swearing. So he himself does not swear and he won't let his actors swear. And if you swear while you're going through the torture, you get it worse as punishment. So that's bizarre. That's bizarre. He also doesn't allow anything sexual to be insinuated in his heart, which is good. That and the fact that he isn't even being paid for this is just like all of this is concerning to me.

Like, is he, is he getting, like, what is he getting out of this? Like, what, what is he getting out of it? Because he's not getting money. So he's got to be getting some kind of satisfaction. And he was explaining it to David Feria, saying that he's an entertainer, and this is just something he loves to do. And it's like, but dude, like, don't you see how this can look? I don't know. I mean, who knows? I, maybe he just really enjoys giving people what they want. And these people obviously want this because they're signing up for it and droves and people are waiting on a thousands and thousands of people long waiting lists. So there's definitely a demand. So maybe he's just being smart and giving people what they want. But like, you should get paid for it. I don't know. Russ just get paid for it. Anyway, this isn't the only

extreme haunted house of its kind. It's just the most unsettling one to me for some reason, so I just decided to start with it. But there's also blackout, which is the kind, it's kind of like the pioneer of extreme haunts. A lot of people know what blackout is. Now, from their website, this is a little taste of the experience. Quote, expect full frontal nudity, extreme sexual situations, sensory deprivation, and complete darkness. Its hallmark is black plastic bag walls, minimal sets, and actors that are real people, no Halloween masks. You will be hooded and probably suffocated. Don't expect a strong linear narrative.

It more flows like a fun time to me. Like, that last part, don't expect a linear narrative. It flows more like a nightmare. That sounds rad. Like that. I could get into a haunted house if it was explained like that. But when you put me in a full frontal nudity, sexual situations. And tell me, you're probably gonna be suffocated. Like, I'm out, I'm out tapped out.

No, none of that sounds okay. And another part of the site, they specifically mention simulated rape. And that's where my brain just fuzzed right over. My brain was like, and good night, San Diego. But that's me lots of people sign up for it just like my camey manner and it's their bag That's awesome, and that's totally okay. Honestly. I'm so fascinated and amazed by you if you're ready to do it I just don't have the psychological strength and I think that's what it is

It's like my psychological ability to enjoy fear will only take me so far. It will only take me to control. Once control is lost, I'm out. Like you put me in a real world situation and fear is not gonna be fun to me because I don't have control over that. But this situation is like specifically taking that away from you.

And it seems like the whole idea of it is to really make your trick your brain and thinking that you are really in a threatening situation that could end your life. And that's a little much for me. I just, I really want to know who you are if you want to do this because I'm fascinated by you and I think you are psychologically much stronger than I am. Now, I happen to look on Yelp and someone said on Yelp, quote, a lot of the actors and actresses were naked for no reason. One man even pushed me to the floor and put his dick in my face because I wouldn't put my hand in a toilet full of vomit and poop. I'm sorry, what? Like what?

Now, give me a chainsaw wielding hillbilly chasing me through a cornfield any day of the week. Give me that all day, air day. But do not. And I repeat, do not have me choosing a dick in the face or a handful of vomited shit. That's not fun. That's straight up trauma. Well, that's trauma. I can't sign up for that.

I can't do it. I know you're signing up for it. You're right. You like you. This is not like something that's going to shock you in the sense that you're like holy shit. I didn't know this was going to happen. Like you know what you know this could happen when you're going in there. But like how? How? If I'm sitting on a floor and there's a naked man in front of me, like, she's shoving his junk in my face because I won't put my hand in a toilet for a pooping vomit, I'm going to be like, I think that's when my brain will just like leak out

of my ears and go hitch a ride somewhere else. I think it will literally be like, I'm going somewhere else. This is bonkers. That's trauma to me. I mean, like, don't get me wrong. I really respect to these places because they are truly providing a unique and like highly sought after experience. Like I said, people want this. And to be honest, as someone who's always dreamed of being the final girl in a horror movie, like, I've always wanted that.

I want to be in a horror movie? Like I've always wanted that. I want to be in a horror movie. I would love to have the balls to do one of these and pretend I was actually living that like final girl dream and like living through all this torture and awfulness to come out the other end and be like, I'm Sydney Prescott, you know. But to me, it would be a more ideal to be placed in a situation like a slasher flick. Like drop me in a summer camp and let me run, you know, out, try to outrun an outsmart. A mass serial killer and I'm gay. Like put me like I think I just saw something and I'm pretty sure someone in the morbid Facebook group put up posted it.

And I think it's an Arizona with who will like drop you in like a camp crystal like kind of situation and you have to like outrun Jason with your friends. I'm into that like, let's do it. I am sign me up. I'm there. This is just different. It's a different kind of fear. And I think that's why different people would probably enjoy that scare more than the running away from Jason at Kipkurstalake fear. I think more sensation seekers would seek out these extreme haunted houses because they it is going to provide you with a variety of sensations. And it's going to give you the highest level of arousal when it comes to the fear, the fear emotion. So I think that would be where those people lie. But again, like, sign me up for that Jason thing.

I will totally pretend to outrun a serial killer. I'm game. Dunk my head underwater, force me to eat my own vomit and simulate raping me? No. That's where the fun drains out and that's where Tramilized for me. But that's the point. In an article with David Weiss for Psychology Today, the creator of Blackout, Joss Randall, explained what the psychology is on there. End of this madness. He said that the aim is to provide people with an experience

where they don't get to tap into that safety net in their brains. He wants real fear to set in, because in a haunted house, you always have that safety net in your brain that you can tap into and it brings you back to the ground. It brings you back to where you are. It takes you into the more fun, well, almost simulated fear that it can, you know, that like vampires and ghosts and all that will, will give you. But he wants real fear. Like he wants primal, real fear to set in where

you don't know whether you're going to get out of their life. The kind of fear that sets in when you're placed in a situation and genuinely don't know if you are living through it or not. He wants people to forget they paid for the experience and believe they are truly fucked. That's why there aren't going to be any like ghosts or monsters, he says in these haunted houses or like Halloween masks, because they're instead utilizing real life situations like rape, assault, torture, mugging, all things that are part of reality. And that makes the situation feel less artificial and brings the actual

fighter flight response into real gear. I mean, it's really going to set off real fear that you would feel in a real situation like that. Another interesting bit is that the creators like to leave a lot open to the person experiencing it. Like, meaning they bring a fear only so far, and then they allow the person to project their own fears onto the situation, because as humans, we're bound to do this. So they give their actors a lot of leeway to kind of interpret what the person that they that is going through at any time because also you have to go through this alone and you don't go with friends. This isn't a group. You go through this entire thing alone.

So they are able to focus solely on you in your specific fears. And these actors look at what your fears are specifically and what sets you off, and they can adjust to really feed into what you are projecting out into the situation. So really they're using your own mind against you. And he also says about the sexual bits, quote, when someone is naked and coming at you, it's an incredibly visceral thrill that you cannot escape from. There's nothing to hide. And honestly, like, amen brother. No tour or word spoken.

When someone's naked and coming at you, it's a very visceral experience, I imagine. So yeah. So who likes to do this? Besides the obvious people who have a thrill-seeking streak in their personality, people who jump out of planes and shit, there has to be more to this. Well, according to Cynthia Hoffner and Kenneth Levine's 2005 paper, enjoyment of mediated frightened violence, a meta-analysis, there are specific personality characteristics that predispose you to either love or hate haunted houses, scary movies, you know, all that shit that frightens you. The first one that they mentioned is empathy.

And of course, having empathy will lead you to probably have a harder time with these things, because people who have strong abilities to empathize are likely to feel and take on the strife and pain of others. They can put themselves in another shoes very easily. So watching and witnessing the pain and suffering and victimization of another human being is something that is probably not only unpleasant to them, but likely exhausting and like kind of draining because they're taking all that on. A few studies have seen that higher levels of empathy, empathy definitely lead to that person not enjoying the fright experience. When it comes to horror movies in particular, an ending where things are not wrapped up nicely, or one that ends on a bad and disturbing note will really leave these people upset. They need to see resolution so that they can feel like that person went through the suffering for a reason. Like the means, there was a means to an end. Now, this immediately made me think of the movie 31, the Rob Zombie movie.

A lot that it's like one of those movies that people fucking hated or fucking love. I loved it personally. I like 31. It just made me think of the end of that one and how people who don't like the fear response probably did not like the end of this one. I'm not gonna spoil it for you, but if anybody has seen the movie, you know the end. And the end of that final scene is, to me, one of the best endings, I thought it was great, but it definitely didn't wrap things up very nicely. As Rob Zombie tends not to do, but go watch 31 if you haven't watched it. Now, the next characteristic is sensation seeking. This is when someone seeks out new, you know, fascinating,

very different, unique and sensational experiences, and will risk a lot, almost anything to do so. These types of people enjoy the feeling of frighten fear. Basically, what it has to do with is these people need a very intense level of stimuli to feel satisfied and aroused emotionally. So they love the fear and fright emotion because it elicits a very high level of stimuli. There are even studies that say that sensation seeking people can detach themselves from situations and films easier and that lets them enjoy the experience more. I don't consider myself a sensation seeking person, like I will not risk like everything to go feel some brand new sensation, but I think I am better able, maybe by virtue of my job, actually, now that I'm really thinking about it to detach myself from the situation a little better, which makes me enjoy these experiences a little more, but

the next characteristic is aggressiveness. This one's kind of controversial because it can be said that more aggressive people enjoy watching others be aggressive as well, but that's not like totally proven and the studies are kind of wonky, but it's worth mentioning because there is a correlation of sorts that's there, but it kind of does make sense that people who enjoy violence and brutality enjoy watching violence and brutality. Again, I don't enjoy violence and brutality and I certainly don't consider myself an aggressive or violent person, but I enjoy watching these kind of things. So there's a little correlation there, but it really doesn't hold up. by Hofdern, Levine points out that men also are more likely to enjoy these frightening situations and movies and all that than women are, but that's likely a cause of gender norms that boys are socialized to enjoy. These things more than girls are from a young age.

It doesn't necessarily correlate with actual preference when you take those social norms out of the picture because like I love shit, and I'm a girl. So when it comes right down to it, there isn't a one-size-fits-all for who's going to enjoy the feeling of fear and who isn't. But if you are someone who enjoys the feeling of fear, which if you're listening to this, you probably somewhat do at least. That's this, hopefully hopefully was a little enlightening to why you enjoy it. And if you're someone who really doesn't like scary movies or haunted houses, hopefully this has enlightened you to why you don't. And giving you both a little

better look into what is happening biologically, psychologically, in your body and your mind while you're watching these things to make your emotions at the end of them the way they are. So that is the science of fear and a discussion into extreme haunted houses with Elena. This was Elena's science corner. So if you would like to send us an email and tell me about your extreme haunted house experience or whether you are really wanting to and you want to tell me why send us an email at morbid

podcast at gmail.com. You can follow us on Instagram at morbid podcast. You can follow us on Twitter at a morbid podcast. Definitely join the Facebook group because that wily bunch of weirdos is wonderful and you will not regret it. Well, we hope you keep listening to us and I really hope you keep it weird. So weird in fact that you sign up for an extreme haunted house and then tell me about it so I can live vicariously through you like I'm a badass Hey, Prime members, you can listen to Morvid, early, and ad-free on Amazon Music. Download the Amazon Music app today, or you can listen to morbid, early, and ad-free on Amazon Music. Download the Amazon Music app today, or you can listen ad-free with Wondery Plus and Apple podcasts.

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