Morbid - Special Mini Morbid: A Chat With Jessica Clifton

Episode Date: January 26, 2020

Today we got to have a truly humbling experience. We spoke with Jessica Clifton, the older sister of Maddie Clifton. Maddie was brutally murdered when she was only 8 years old and Jessica was only 11. Who was the killer? It was a casual friend in the neighborhood, 14 year old Joshua Philips. Speaking with Jessica, we were able to clear up some misconceptions about her sister's case and also hear her first hand experience as a family member of a murder victim. This conversation was really eye-opening and we want to thank Jessica a million times for sharing her insight with us. We know it wasn't easy to open this back up. Visit out sponsors! Check out Embark Right now, Embark has an exclusive offer you can’t get anywhere else! Go to Embarkvet.com now and use Promo code MORBID to save 15% off your Dog DNA Test Kit. Go get yourself some HelloFresh Go to HelloFresh.com/morbid10 and use code morbid10 during HelloFresh’s New Year’s sale for 10 free meals including free shipping. See Privacy Policy at https://art19.com/privacy and California Privacy Notice at https://art19.com/privacy#do-not-sell-my-info.

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That's W-O-N-D-E-R-Y-P-O-D. Audible.com slash wundery pod or text wundery pod to 500-500 to try audible for free for 30 days. You can host the best backyard barbecue. When you find a professional on Angie to make your backyard the best around. Connect with skilled professionals to get all your home projects done well. Inside to outside, repairs to renovations. Get started on the Angie app or visit Angie.com today. You can do this when you Angie that. Hey weirdos, I'm Alena, my name's Ash, and this

is a mini mini morbid. Mini mini mini mini mini morbid. Mini morbid mini morbid. many more bad. Ooh la la. You know that even though we just said like who's hey weirdo's it was, I just when you record I went to say, hey weirdo. It happens. Here we are. It's late.

It's been a long week. You just broke your finger. Oh my hand down and I punched the floor. It happens. And also this is not going to be a mini morbid. No,, this is not going to be a mini morbid. No, it's actually not. It is a mini morbid. It's a whole ass morbid.

But it's a whole ass morbid. And this one's very, very special because guys, we are revisiting a case that I actually did. Hi, I'm Alina, that I actually did as one of my minis. It wasn't mini at all when I did it, of course. No, never. It was the case of the absolutely brutal and completely horrific murder of Maddie Clifton. And it's Joshua Phillips, who is the vicious monster who did it to her.

Originally, this episode was episode 80, where we covered the case in like a ton of detail. But we were contacted actually by Maddie's older sister, who I believe we mentioned in the episode because she does, she's in this a lot, obviously. Her older sister Jessica Clifton, she contacted us to let us know that there were a few things that could be misconstrued or were incorrect information about especially leading up to that day, that the moment that Maddie was murdered, and things that Joshua had said

in his court testimony about what happened that day, that the evidence just doesn't corroborate, and that she has waved at our insight into this, obviously. So she just wanted to reach out to us, tell us that some of that was wrong. So we asked, would you, you know, would she be willing to chat with us to, because we want to get her story out. This is her family. This is her little sister. Jessica was 11 at the time this happened. And Maddie was eight years old. So we wanted to make sure her story gets out there. She gets to tell the world exactly what happened. And the correct information. Exactly.

The first hand account. Yeah. And that's so, she was gracious and amazing enough to speak to us, which to me is amazing that she can even speak about this, because it's such a horrific thing. But we had an amazing conversation with her. She was so nice and so easy to talk to. Seriously, and when I tell you that she is such like a beam of light, like we talked to her over the phone and I immediately upon her answering the phone, I felt comfortable.

Because obviously we were nervous to call her, I mean, because you're nervous that this is dredging up a very, very traumatic thing. And this is so delicate and this is somebody's sister. It's, this is the stuff that we always want to be so respectful about. And knowing that we had got things wrong, it was weighing on me heavily. And it was the same. So I think I was a little nervous to talk to her, because I was so nervous that I was, that it she was going to think I disrespected Matti's memory.

Right. And we would never want to do that to any family. No. And luckily that wasn't the case. It was like she just wanted to clear up a few things. Clear up, yeah. And again, it was just like, she really just put us at ease, like right away, she has such insight into this. I mean, she's so brave. Like, you're gonna hear it because she was gracious enough

to let us record the conversation so that we could release it for this episode. So that's what we're gonna be doing. We talked to her basically about what she saw as inconsistencies. Mm-hmm. And then she gave us just some more insight into the relationship that they had with Josh, which was a lot less than what was portrayed. Yep. And just some things that weren't released initially. And she let us know how she felt, which is something

that nobody can write about. Nobody can just come. She's the only person I can say. She's the only one that can put us in her own head space during this whole thing, because she had to sit originally, and she'll say it in the interview, originally Originally she didn't sit in on the trial because she was 11 years old. But when the trial came back around a couple of years ago, she had to sit there throughout the whole thing and listen to this whole thing be dredged up again when he was retried

because of the law that it was unconstitutional to sentence juvenile offenders to life without parole. So he was getting a resentencing hearing. He was trying to get out of prison. And she had to sit there and listen to the whole thing again. She had to look at pictures. She had to see the whole thing. Details were brought up that she didn't even know about details about her. Right. She had no idea because her parents at the time were being good parents and they weren't Involving her in all the ins and outs of this and they knew that her knowing that you know What you're gonna hear is I mean I think we mentioned it in the episode that Josh had a

Infatuation scary infatuation obsession like some weird sexual obsession with Jessica and like some weird sexual obsession with Jessica. And obviously her parents were smart enough and companions enough to not tell her that when she's 11. Of course, the shit out of her. So she had to hear this in court. Like she had no idea how much of, you know, her life was interconnected with his weird, crazy fantasies that she had no idea about.

So we just want to first and foremost say Jessica thank you so so so much for talking to us. This was amazing. It was eye opening. It made me feel good to know that we're going to get the story straight and it just made me feel good because I was like wow I really like Jessica. Yeah. I was like you're really easy to talk to.

Yeah. I really want to talk to you again. Yeah. Can we just talk? But so yeah, she's really great. We're so glad to hear that she's doing so well. Yeah. She is really just like remarkably well. She's a pretty amazing person with what she's gone through and how she's come out of it.

So we just want to-five her on that. And one thing before we start showing you the recorded interview, we do have two small ads in this episode. We just didn't want anyone to think that we were being like disrespectful, putting ads in the interview. I don't know why anybody would,

but we try to just nip these things in the bud before they become a new show. Just try to make everybody happy. So we do have two ads in this interview, I don't know why anybody would, but we try to just nip these things in the bud before they become an issue. Just try to make everybody happy. So we do have two ads in this episode, but they're short, they're quick. You know, they're coming because I gave you some new music. So enjoy. So I hope you guys enjoy this interview with Jessica

and without further ado, here it is. Take it away, Jessica. I'm gonna just let you kind of like you tell us So while I was listening So the in the court for stealing kind of so Josh tells his story Obviously a little different than what the evidence provide. Oh, yeah, I'm sure Yeah, you know he made the whole story of it being accidental and to where she wanted to go over there and play and accidentally hearing there was no physical evidence, breathing in a bone fracture.

Anything that's adjusted, that she even dusted it with a bowl in her eye. And then he says, you know, when he hit her, he drove her from outside inside. And there was no dirt, there were no leaves. There was an outgrain like, I get you to vacuum that kind of stuff up, but by sponsored clothing in her hair. Yeah. Stuff like that. So that was, you know, I just wanted to make sure that everyone realized that the evidence to story was not there, it's basically just cut it into story. Absolutely.

And I think there was one point where he said that they were playing in the backyard. Now I wish I could show you guys I can't go and take a picture of it. Oh yeah. Imagine a backyard that is very trying, not triangle. It's like a funky shape, the pool on the backyard. It actually takes up the entire backyard and there are little patches of black, kind of in each corner of the pool. So there's not enough room in just backyard.

So we throw a baseball and sit it. Yeah. I mean, it's like kids play baseball standing in an interport. I mean, it's not. Yeah, that doesn't make sense. So like not at all. And I can definitely picture what you're saying. That the backyard is like basically an entire pool. Yeah. So that doesn't make sense at all. No, not at all. So there were not a lot of things in his story that the evidence could not, it didn't stand behind his story. Yeah, definitely. So that was one thing that I wanted to kind of talk about. The other thing was, and this was a kind of upset me probably the most so you know how cold are you guys? I'm Elena and I'm 34 and this is Ash I'm 23

Yeah, we got ten years between us So Elena you can kind of understand So, Elena, you can kind of understand that then it just wasn't that big of a deal to go out fighting plays. No. No. You know your mom or dad watching you. That's, I did it all the time. Exactly. I mean, we played Man Hunt at midnight. Yep. We were only around on this neighborhood, but that's huge. And like, you can't do that now. No, no. No, no. I have three kids and I would never do it now, ever.

I'm just kidding. That is good. Yeah. So, it was a kind of a thing where it was my health and then our body knit, it was Maddie's age and that was Maddie's best friend. And then my body chest, it was my age, my best friend. So it was always before us. Okay, and Nick cousin was always, his name was Justin, he was always with us playing as well

So on the days all this happened Literally, three or five years from now you're with you were kind of looking at you as a second in the beginning live next door to Jeff okay which is the furthest house down the road and it was kind of one of those things where if the five of us were out playing Nick parents and Nick parents were outside they were trying to watch after us if just parents were outside they were kind of watching yeah yeah yeah yeah Larry's kids were older they were kind of watching. Yeah. Yeah. Sure. Larry's kids were older.

They were, you know, out of the house. And he lived there with his mom. And he took care of his mom. And so it was never like a, it was more of a, I'm an adult. I'm watching after the kid kind of things. Okay. And I don't know if I'm in her book.

But in the podcast, it said that it was, scurren, Larry down the street. That wasn't even not accurate. Okay, that's really good to know, because I believe that was from the book. I'll double check though, just to make sure. But yeah, that makes so much more sense. Hey there, fellow podcast listener, it's Elena. And Ash! And we're taking you back to the days before streaming services.

Whoa! You know when you would come home from high school and it was only a few hours until that TV show everyone was watching was about to come on? Well in 1999, that show was Buffy the Vampire Slayer. In our podcast with Wondery, the re-watcher Buffy the Vampire Slayer, we take it back to 1999. So get out your knee-high boots and paste that poster of Angel on the wall. It's time to enter the Buffyverse. Some of you avid morbid listeners already know what we've gotten store. Hey, my nose. Join us as we sway our way through Buffy's drama, action and romance, episode by episode.

Slazy, follow the rewatcher, Buffy the Vampire Slayer, wherever you get your podcasts. You can listen early and add free on the Amazon Music or Wondery app. Darn, ee-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-e-p-p-p-p-p-p-p-p-p-p-p-p-p-p-p-p-p-p-p-p-p-p-p-p-p-p-p-p-p-p-p-p-p-p-p-p-p-p-p-p-p-p-p-p-p-p-p-p-p-p-p-p-p-p-p-p-p-p-p-p-p-p-p-p-p-p-p-p-p-p-p-p-p-p-p-p-p-p-p-p-p-p-p-p-p-p-p-p-p-p-p-p-p-p-p-p-p-p-p-p-p-p-p-p-p-p-p-p-p-p-p-p-p-p-p-p-p-p-p-p-p-p-p-p-p-p-p-p-p-p-p-p-p-p-p-p- corruption inside America's system of juvenile justice. In Northeastern Pennsylvania, residents had begun noticing an alarming trend. Children were being sent away to jail in high numbers and often for committing only minor offenses. The FBI began looking at two local judges, and when the full picture emerged, it made national headlines.

The judges were earning a fortune, carrying out a brazen criminal scheme, one that would shatter the lives of countless children and force a heated debate about punishment and America's criminal justice system. Follow American scandal wherever you get your podcasts. You can listen ad-free on the Amazon Music or Wonder App. So Nick, who was 90 days late, and Justin, who was, I was 11, 12, 13, 14, who was 14 at the time, same age as Josh, was Brentwood Josh as well, it was Nick, Justin, and Larry, so she went down there with this. Now the reason why Jeff wasn't outside Jeff was sick. Okay. So normally it would have been Nick, yeah, go play with me for 40 years.

No, I totally get that. Yeah, that makes so much more sense. That definitely does. I'm really glad we were able to clear this up. Yeah, for sure. Yeah, I just want everyone in the world to be like, wow, her parents are really dumb. Yeah, no, totally. That's completely understandable.

So she goes out to play now on a kissing piano. Right? I had more homework than her. She was a lot younger than I was. Yeah. So she goes down and they're getting golf balls. And the Larry was like, look, I don't have a lot of golf balls. You kid me to find your own.

Just in the 14 year old, walks her down to my house. OK. It interrupts me playing a piano, doing homework, and then like, guys, I don't have time to look for golf balls. Right now, I'm starting out. I play with you guys. You know what I mean? Like, you got to let me do my stuff, and then I can come up.

Right, exactly. And this is kind of a really sad aspect to the story as well. So Justin, again, was one of our very, very close friends. He got hired. So it's very helpful in the dog's office. Oh, no, don't worry. So when he comes down here with her, she was taking forever. And she came at me, I'm gonna go back down the street.

Once you find one, I will see you in a minute. Oh, that hurts my heart. It's a slow part, yeah. Yeah, I'm so sorry. And if he had it just today, you know? Yeah, absolutely. And I feel first scared because he's, oh sorry. No, don't have to be sorry at all. He was one of my very good friends. He's doing okay right now. He's doing okay. Oh good. So that's awesome. Yeah, but the poor state he's just a mess from it. Yeah. And that's awesome. Yes, but the poor state is just a mess from it.

Yeah, and I'm gonna imagine. It doesn't only just affect me, my mom and my dad and I can show the people that we're all really close to. Yeah, it's like a rip-off effect. Absolutely, yeah. My her is no greater or less than my mom, my dad. You know what I mean? Like, we're in our own lane. It's just so bad when someone goes down to hell like that.

But yeah, so I just wanted everyone to realize that they were all down there, that he actually, you know, Justin actually walked her down here and then that kind of how she ended up by herself walking back down the street, which I mean, I'm standing outside right now looking at this and there are three houses down. Yeah, it's not like it's this long, long thing. Right, like it's literally three houses away. She should have been okay. Yeah. And I know what happened. I know, see, her and I at the the time and this is a lot of people don't know this Turn I the time will not allow to hang out with Josh. Oh, okay It's a very sexual joke. You know what I did read that yeah, yeah

We were good kids. We you know her door flex and we run to mommy and daddy Yeah, You know, yeah. And they were like, you know, we don't watch any other things. So, I think, and I know Josh was from outside because of Nick grandma, which is the house next door to Josh's, saw him outside. And I know that she walked over there and said, hey, I'm looking for a buffal. Because she was so adamant that I was about to kick her out.

And I'm like, I think I got to get out. I'm thinking, like, kill her. You kill her, me. So I know for a fact you walked over there and asked him and he was part of like, Oh, I got one inside the house. And it was no different than, I mean, we've been in there before. Yeah. She was staying out in.

She was just looking for a gospel. Right. So, and that's how the luring, you know, obviously only him and God know that and her of course, but that makes so much sense. Yeah, so, and then for something I have written that is relationship with Josh, which, so I don't know if you guys read that he was breaking into our home. Yes. So all of that was not allowed to come out in the beginning because it wasn't so bad on the trial because it didn't actually affect the murder. Yeah, that makes sense. Yeah. That's why I didn't read it until a lot later. I remember initially hearing about this case and I never saw that. And then I read it later and was like wait a second. Right, yeah. So I don't know, I don't really remember what that was about or a relationship

with him but so he was the first thing that wasn't missing was a cordless phone which they ended up later finding in our back yard there's like a lot of woods in the back yard because we started getting like $500 stone do with sex calls on that. Oh my gosh that's bizarre. Like maybe you know my parents are gonna be like 11-year-old, eight-year-old. Probably not. Right. Yeah. So it was just very random. Then we got rid of the cordless phones. You know, we got a new one, whatever. And then I came home one day from school, and the window was completely shattered on the side of the house.

It's so scary. And they were like, yeah, super scary. And of course, it should be me, my grandma, and daddy. Oh, geez. Not too much. Yeah, you're not feeling super confident there. Super scary and of course I should be me and my grandma and daddy. Oh geez Yeah, you're not feeling super confident there There were she had taken a staple gun and stapled staples in our franchise Maddie bedsheet What She is a good girl. What? Um, camera holes in our walls. Didn't steal anything.

Wow. That's a picture of myself, which is kind of where the relationship, I think, aspect of an I come into play. Yeah. Where it wasn't really, um, what everyone thought it was a really interesting to hear. It was more of, I guess, the one he looked at me. Yeah. Let me just tell you what. I didn't know about that. Okay. I'm 11 years old.

Yeah. I think these people want to do and tell me this and freak me out. Yeah. What? I didn't know about that. I'm 11 years old. I think these people want to tell me this and freak me out. During the recentencing two years ago, I was able to sit in the courtroom the whole time. During the murder trial, I was 11 years old. I was not old enough to sit through all of that. I'm sitting there and like,

that's what everything that's going on is about me. Oh, my. And then close, unclothed infatuation with me. And I'm like turning red and freaking out. And like, I just didn't really have a clue. No. Like, I'm in the face.

Super fast in the face, because I had no idea. Yeah, that must have been insane to hear. Like for the first time. So many years later. So many years. Yeah, I mean, two years. This was 18, 18, 19 years later. I just didn't know that I had such a big purge in it. Yeah. So there was no, and there was no relationship obviously between the two of us, but there was some sexual yeah. You know, maybe in C going on obviously, he was looking at rate 400, be 30 minutes before he did it. Some kind of like obsession going on here. Exactly, exactly. And maybe, you know, I was older. Yeah. So I was 11 she was a maybe there was a more attraction to whatever So if it were me walking out the door first, I'm sure it would have been me

Really So There was no I wanted to clarify that there wasn't by that there wasn't an odd relationship between the two of them. We were all friends. Yeah. We placed them there for almost every day for a little over a year. Wow. That's really, that's like shocking to here. Because it's like knowing what he is. It's like wow. Right. That somebody can just hide it like that. Yeah, it's scary. Well, I mean, you know, when I was back to, you know, him hiding, I went and knocked on his door last first night. And I hung out with him every day during, while she was missing. Oh my gosh. That's awful. We were playing all the kids are playing football on the front yard. Like, yeah. Moving up around for people to be able to come in here and work and answer phones and, you know,

tip line, stuff like that. And she was just right there along with all of that. That's so just haunting. Yeah, like he was just able to push it down like that and just put up a facade. Right. That's really that's really scary. Very one and to go sleep on top of her. Oh, that that just my mind can't even like bend to fathom that. Yeah, it was, um, yeah, I can't. And it's so crazy because I remember so much. And then afterwards, I don't remember anything at all. Yeah, that makes sense. Life becomes a blur. Probably still college. Oh, wow. Yeah, that's just straight up trauma. It was was gonna say you were so traumatized by everything. It makes perfect sense Yeah Just my parents, you know, like they were trying to hold themselves together

Yeah Yeah, we're not just going to keep themselves together and I was like if I'm falling apart Yeah, no, so I just I really didn't even so well after a few years after she passed away Just because I tried to face so strong for my parents and now I'm not so that was definitely not my choice But that was really amazing of you to think of somebody else in that situation. Thank you. It really is. And especially at your age at the time of that it happened,

that's really impressive that you were mature enough to look at it that way. Yeah, it was just weird. It was almost like all over the pilot. Like, no, it's not crazy. Wow. And then now, I didn't know the end, because then the last thing I wrote was talking about how um our poor hero friend is well walked her back down here. Oh yeah. Okay. So that was the end of the end of my

note. But other than that it was beautiful. I was like oh good. Oh good. We're so glad to hear that. That makes me so happy because I was like oh god God, the last thing I would ever want to do is like disrespect. Yeah, we would never want to do that. I think to other families. Yeah, I know, absolutely. And, you know, it's funny, too. I do want to know what I got my bachelor's in criminal justice.

Oh, that's awesome. Yeah, too. Thank you. And so every podcast I listen to, I try to cringe. Like, when I talk to an episode, people like, oh, gosh, this is about us. Yeah, you know, oh, I try to cringe when I talk to an episode people like, oh gosh, it's about us. Yeah, you know, oh, I can't imagine that. Wait, I mean, thank you so much for telling us all of this because this is the stuff we

want. Like, we want to let people know what's actually happened. Yeah, we want to get the real story out there, you know. See, I don't like this thing, that's what's so scary about that point guys. Yeah. That's not easily things that hit him through. And I hate that. Yeah, that's frustrating because it does make it seem like she was just hanging out with

this 40-year-old guy. It's like what? And then that's when people talk to the whole, what is wrong with her hair? Exactly. Yeah, and that's unfair. So I'm so, so glad that we were able to talk to you, seriously. Absolutely. Thank you so much.

Kurt. No, thank you. Of course. Seriously. In what, do you mind if I ask you, like, what were your thoughts about that whole resentencing thing that they wanted to do for juvenile offenders. So I was very aware of the law before a lot of people because I was working at the state attorney's office.

Oh wow. At the time that all of that was going on and I was working on actually a case here in Jacksonville, I don't know if you're familiar, it was two boys that just quote, unquote wanted to know what it would be like to kill someone. Oh, yes, I do know that one. They were in high school, 17 and 18 years old and they stopped shot one of their ex-relphants in the face, leaving school. Yep. And I've worked on a lot of big profiles and pieces like that. Oh, wow.

And that was one of the cases too, that came down cut up. And you know, I just don't, are you familiar with the actual, like, what the law, why they changed it and what changed, why they changed it on? No, that was actually, I was kind of hoping that you, you had some insight on that, because I know a very generalized version of the law that they basically thought it was wrong to sentence juvenile offenders to life without parole because of the like you know developmental issues And I that that that's as far as I kind of know about it. So I'm actually really glad that you have more inside of

The actual case and I don't I don't know But it was about two boys, acting together in a basic, I drive you to the murder. You murder someone, I'm not at you home. I am an accomplice to murder. They catch you. The murder. And they're like, listen, if you tell on your buddy, we'll give you a lighter sentence. Oh, okay. Ready? So, you know,

like a, like a plea or not, not a plea deal. Like a bargain. at the end. Yeah. That's okay. Not actually the word. So that is what it is kind of about because the one kid, that it was, did happy to, they were kids and they were young. And the guy that actually was the accomplice of the person, she was the one that actually got more time as the juvenile, I was trying to add an adult. And so in that case, obviously you were going to be go, okay, in that case, he should have gotten to hold. Yeah.

He wasn't even the one that picked up the gun and shot the guy. Yeah, that seems like a totally different situation. Exactly. And so during the recent testing trial, if you guys know, I'm pretty sure that it comes to the drug use discussion. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

So, so, and obviously an hour change, the judge went over that whole, um, the case law on it and said, this is a very different situation. He wasn't acting off of some of the decision. It was so review. Yeah, it just doesn't apply. Right. It doesn't apply at all. And what you did is so in and so wrong.

And the fact that he could have stopped. Right. Oh, at so many points. Twice, he was still alive. Yeah. Just like, how can I, like, dare you, you do not deserve to kill? I totally agree. Me too.

So, and it just came out last week, then he's appealing that. Yeah, I did just read an article about that. So when he appeals it, are you guys going to have to be dragged in there again? No, so I'm not actually quite sure how the appeal process goes with that? Because before this law came about, he was appealing what it called a 3850. You guys were reasonably aware of it. It's when they feel like they were not defended properly. And so they can list a certain amount of, you know, they can list 50 things that they wanted to.

Issues, problems that they had with their trial. And the judge can look at all 50 and go, none of these are worth my time. None of this would have changed the outcome of the case. And so I'm going to throw it out. Or you can be like, okay'm gonna listen to two four 17 and 24 and and Couple things that he was arguing saying that you know he didn't get a third round so

At the time that this wall was coming out that's where he was That was his process for appealing to him. Oh, okay. They started throwing that out because he obviously had a better shot at this. Juvenile, you know, it's unconstitutional for Juvenile to get away from the couple. Yeah, yeah, definitely. They went that well. So I didn't know that he even appealed this.

I thought that you were going to go back to appealing the 3850. Yeah. I didn't know that he even appealed this. I thought that you were going to go back to appealing a 3850. Yeah. And not this decision with the restraints, which I think is channel-weird. Yeah, definitely. I didn't even know they could appeal that, to be honest. Because I've heard once the judge made on his decision.

Yeah. I mean, what are you really going to prove at this point? Right. It's like appealing an appeal. Yeah. It's still the same thing. Yeah, so why would you not go back to the 3850 and say you were not indiscreet properly?

Yeah. You can go about, I don't know. Yeah, exactly. But it's like, OK. I'm sure. Maybe the point is one of the 30-year-old. Yeah, exactly. Well, yes, and we won't get drove into it.

The scary thing about that 38-50 though is, we'll say if a judge decides to hear those things, and decides, I mean, that just goes back to an entire new trial. Oh man, that is really scary. But you also got to think about it. You were fighting that 3850s for what like 15 years? Yeah.

Seven months in the year until they didn't even get it done in that amount of time. Yeah, so to me it's like what can you really do at this point? Exactly Yeah, I'm hoping for my I can't see there because that was the longest four days of my life. I can't even imagine. I know. We're all full, but I wasn't in there. Yeah. You know, I've gotten there the whole time,

even during the rest of the day, I said, you know, work out the show pictures if the family actually did. Oh, wow. I've gotten there because I just had to know. I had to eat because I felt like I had missed so much, you know, so much I know. Yeah. And it kind of bothered me.

Yeah. But in the scene, this is freaked me the fuck out. Oh wait, I can't even imagine. Because before that, it's probably, I can understand why you would want to sit there because it's like, your mind is probably filling in the blanks of things that you didn't know. So it's like, we might as well see the truth so I can just get rid of what my brain is forming, you know. Yes. Oh, yes, 100%.

But I... This is a strange feeling and I don't know anything, it's still hard to explain. But yeah, I I can definitely understand that You know and it also changed my perspective on a lot of things. I think there was a one point, so I don't know if you also read the I wrote him while he was in prison. Oh no, I didn't read that. Yeah, so again, I think it was one of those things where like I wasn't in the trial only when I had to test the science. There were so many art-answer things.

And like in my head I used to put it all together. Yeah. And so I wrote it and I asked and if I could actually sit down and speak with them. Oh wow. And, um, yeah, it was tough, hard. But, so they can accept you or deny you in prison. Not like jail, you can just show up and see them. Um, so he wrote me back and he said he wouldn't deny me that he would like to talk to me. I'm just so out of this visitation form. I showed all the visitation form and I didn't really share anything back.

And this was in 2008. Okay. There was 10 years after. So I ended up writing a backer. I feel like a month or so since I never heard back from him. And that was when he had hired the attorney. He had now, and started the appeal process with the 3850. And he was like, my attorney doesn't think it's a good idea. I just want to let you know that it's not me thing. I don't want you to come. And I don't want to talk to you that I'm not that bad. I'm saying, I think the training thing is not a good idea right now.

I'll be so you can say something stupid or whatever. Yeah, exactly. We know, it's all recorded. So, you know, I took it as, is that fine? I said that was fine. And so, during the reciting hearing, I can even begin to describe, because I had to get up to wipe on the stand

during the reciting. Oh, wow. And I remember thinking afterwards, thank God I did not go talk to him. Oh, God, yeah. It was the most nerve-wracking. And I don't know what's new. There's a million cameras on you and there's people watching you and there's a

geologist attorney and him just staring right at you and it was just I can't even imagine that. I mean I feel like I've lost though. Yeah, seriously. It was just the most nerve-wracking thing I've ever been through in my entire life. I mean, I was so sick. I barely ate those four days. Oh, yeah. It was something like I've never experienced before in my life. And I remember just feeling a huge rush of invading towards my parent

first sitting through an entire, you know, for a murder trial. Oh yeah and it's like when as a parent myself just reading this made me like I could I felt nauseous like four-year parents because I literally cannot fathom what they went through. They're strong individuals. Oh yeah, sure. It's crazy. My mom was shooting out really. She struggled a lot mentally. So her and I don't have the best relationship.

We talk like a little bit at the end of the day. Yeah. So my dad and I are really close. Oh good. That's awesome. And you know, day split when I was 14, three years after my sister died. They were happily married for 25 years. Oh wow. And I mean they got married

at 21 and didn't start having kids until they were 30. Oh wow. So you know they still be together. Yeah. But it just shows what that does. Yeah. And you, everyone greets differently than men versus women. Yeah. My dad, we have another daughter that she cares and my mom just was drowning and couldn't get out of it. Yeah. And she still is like that. So I'm a very positive uplifting.

I love that. I love that. It comes out when you talk to me. It really does. Not immediately. I'm glad. And I wish she was, you know, took it differently.

But I can't have that well with me mentality. And I want to have that all sort of, you know, just so bring awareness to everyone, but not constantly talk about it and constantly let it go and be down. Yeah, absolutely. He was not one that. No. Yeah.

So that's the thing you're not afraid of, I've never happened again because I know it's real. Yeah, because one of the things I was thinking about was like sitting there and this is such a different scenario because I always think of like how the families have to sit in the courtroom with this monster who did this to their loved one. And then in your situation, this is someone that you were friends with initially. So it's like, I mean, it's an even weirder like, you know, like tension there because it's like we were once friends and now you're this you've shown to be this evil monster. It must have been such a weird feeling. Yes, yes, kind of, you know, the trail in a way.

Yeah, because you're like familiar with him, but you're not. Exactly. Well, and he, you know, it wasn't like he was a part of our little group. I mean, I'm still best friends with just the one that lives a couple doors down. I love that. That's awesome. We've been best friends 33 years. Wow. That's so rare. Long, long time. Yeah, she's, I told her, I'm not going to make you wear the dress Bridesman Man of honor Yes, I love that

Just you know it changed it changed a lot, but it's nice to have It's just, you know, it changed a lot, but it's nice to have those friends that are so close. So, I mean, we all do hung out for like, I mean, over the year and a half, but still a long time, that's still not to be like, Zeus, I thought you were my friend. Yeah, especially when you're kids. Right, yeah, yeah, especially when you're a child. Yeah. I mean, you're not Jesus, you're not, you know, you're so innocent here. Yeah. Like, you're not even supposed to know about any of this kind of thing.

Right. And you just took it to the extreme. Yeah. You just pulled everybody into that dark world with him. Absolutely. Well, we, we seriously can't tell you enough how much we appreciate you talking to us because I know this must be so hard to talk about no matter how long it's been. Mm-hmm.

And everything you've told us is so great because I want people to know this stuff. Like this is the stuff that we really want people to know. It's so important. Absolutely. One hundred percent. Because I think that's the way to honor Maddie is making sure that her story is told correctly and to as many people as can hear it I know I don't know how that should have worked. I know, I don't either. Yeah. And it's just so, I mean, it goes to show how one detail makes a story completely different. Yeah. Yep. You are absolutely right. Yeah. I'm gonna try to get this out very quickly, like tomorrow, if I can. try to get this out very quickly like tomorrow if I can. Yeah, because I figure it's like I'm excited to get it out so I want to I'll be working

on it tonight. And I'll let you know as soon as I post it. Okay, cool, that sounds great. Alright, awesome. Thank you so, so much. And if you ever want to reach out again, feel free to because we love talking to you. We really did. Thank you. Hopefully we'll talk to you. We really did. Thank you. Hopefully we'll talk to you again. Awesome. Thank you so much. You too. Thank you. Bye. So that was our discussion with Jessica. We hope you enjoyed it. We really hope you enjoyed it. Hopefully it was as insightful for you as it was for us. Yeah and hopefully it made you feel like you have a better look into this case that

apparent you know there's a lot of misconstrued information about. And again thank you so much to Jessica for talking to us. Yeah a million thanks. Seriously she's great and we're so so grateful for her talking to us about this because it's really brave for sure. So guys we hope you keep great and we're so, so grateful for her talking to us about this because it's really brave. For sure. So guys, we hope you keep listening and we hope you keep it weird. Bye. See you later, guys. Hey, prime members. You can listen to morbid, early and ad-free on Amazon music. Download the Amazon Music app today. Or you can listen ad-free with Wondery Plus and Apple podcasts. Before you go, tell us about yourself by completing a short survey

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