Mum's The Word! The Parenting Podcast - Alex Light on Stopping the Body Shaming Cycle

Episode Date: April 16, 2023

Alex Light is an author, entrepreneur, podcaster and all round bringer of body positivity for all! In this episode we work to break down the dieting cycle for new generations, discussing what we are being exposed to and how we can respond to unsolicited comments and work to be true to yourself. In an exclusive she also discusses her recent plans to future-proof her own fertility. TW// Eating DisorderGet in touch with us on your birth stories at [e-mail] or on 07599927537----A Create Podcast Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

well hello i'm back i'm still pregnant but i'm very very very close to the end now and so i thought as my body is about to go from what i would say is the socially acceptable pregnant body into the socially unacceptable postnatal mum bod. I wanted to talk about body confidence and diet culture and various mum shaming today because I saw an article recently about Molly May being back in the gym three weeks post-birth. And look, I'm very torn about things like this because I think each to their own and we need

to stop shaming especially new mums for when they feel is appropriate to go back to exercise and ultimately exercise shouldn't be seen as something that's negative but I worry as well about the health implications because presumably Molly May, Kylie Jenner, you know, lots of these big celebrities probably have a private midwife, a pelvic health physio, lots of people telling them what is safe for them to do. And there is undoubtedly absolutely mad pressure on social media and the media about balance back culture so this week I'm really excited because I've got an amazing guest someone I consider a friend but she is also a journalist so she was originally a beauty and fashion journalist and then she kind of moved into

creating a digital safe space for people where she discusses conversations around eating disorders, weight stigma. She is fighting the good fight against unrealistic beauty expectations, diet culture. She's got an amazing book, if you haven't read it, called You Are Not A Before Picture about how to finally make peace with your body for good. And she also founded her inclusive brand, Light London, as well as having a bloody great podcast with M. Clarkson called Should I Delete That? So if you don't know already, it's Alex Light. Hi.

Oh, that was such a nice intro. Thank you so much. Oh, I'm so pleased that you've come on out by the way I also want to say that I would um we will be discussing I think in a little while and the fact that you're future proofing your own fertility as well yeah I mean I kind of have like scratched the surface online and it's been a bit of a minefield. So on Instagram, I find that it's been, I don't know, quite controversial content. Content I didn't think was going to be controversial, but it's ended up being very controversial. So yeah, that's been a bit interesting.

I feel like the sort of weaponizing and policing of women's bodies and with that our reproductive systems, it is quite mad because it is lots of things that shouldn't be controversial are controversial and a good example is that is taking it back to the postnatal body i know lots of friends who whether it's because of genetics whether it's because of depression whether it's because of illness, not coping with motherhood, they have just lost a lot of weight very quickly after birth. Not always because it's the healthy thing to do, but sometimes just because that's their bodies. And they also feel a lot of shame and like they're not good role models

in the same way that, you know, people that don't lose the weight are also shamed. So it does feel like as women often we can't win it's like often when you see people in the in the social media space or the online space who are really into like body confidence maybe they're um you know a brilliant plus size influences and then if they show any sort of picture or video of themselves exercising, they get shamed. a lot of us did stripped of our routines. Um, and you know, I showed, I showed my body a lot. And then after lockdown, I just naturally began very gradually to lose weight. And since I've really struggled with showing my body online, because I know that it will be met with, okay, well, you're just everything you said, it didn't mean anything because really you just wanted to be

thin. And I think there's not enough room for allowing our bodies just as we allow them to fluctuate upwards. We allow them to fluctuate downwards as well. Um, but with the, yeah, with the postpartum stuff, like I'm always fascinated by this. I'm not a mom, obviously myself, but to me, the area of like postpartum bodies just seems so full of shame. That seems to be the overriding, like emotion. It seems to be all completely shrouded in shame. And it's like, you know, your pregnant body is this like celebrated, revered, like it's beautiful. It's nature. It's, it's like a miracle it's incredible and then once the baby's out once you give birth and then afterwards it just seems like this very it's like somehow it's just turned into this very shameful um you know postpartum place that you know

i i don't know i don't even know if this is right. And I'm saying this, obviously, as someone who's never experienced it, but that kind of feels like the narrative, which is just, if you take a step back and look at it, feels crazy. Well, it's this kind of like policing of our bodies, whereas you're damned if you do and you're damned if you don't, because, you know, I get it all the time at the moment, people being like, what are you going to do to lose weight like what are you going to do to lose weight what are you going to do to lose weight afterwards and that's honestly not really on my mind because what I found really frustrating with my pregnancy with Alf was that obviously I had quite a traumatic birth I had stitches I had incontinence I had fecal incontinence

and when people were discussing my weight I was like I feel like I might not be able to step outside my house without shitting myself for the rest of my life and all I want is my body to work all I want is a rectum that can hold in poo and all anyone seems to care about is the outer shell and it felt a bit like the this is a really bad analogy but you know the titanic it was like the tip of the iceberg and and that's why it sank because you only saw the very top yeah and that's what it feels like the way the the conversation around postpartum i feel like it puts unnecessary pressure on people but also an unrealistic expectation because it's the recovery seems to be well are you going to bounce back or not and it's like yeah but but I'd like my stitches to heal and I'd like not to shit myself or I'd

like not to wee myself or I want to know that I don't have a prolapse or I want to know that my abs are not separated so that if I do go back to exercise and sadly in the UK, the postnatal care is just not there. So my concern is when I see, you know, and I'm not shaming Molly May because like I said, she's probably got a great team around her. And also, let's be honest, there is a link between exercise and mental health. It's the best possible thing you can do for your anxiety um so you know if it works for people great but i worry that for the other people that are consuming that content what message does it give that you're back exercising three weeks down the line i find this to be a really, something really sinister about

this preoccupation that we have with weight loss. This absolute obsession is that all the way from, oh, I've got a stomach bug, so I've lost 10 pounds or, I don't know, whatever. I've lost however many pounds and oh my God, you look amazing. Like that's the reaction all the way down to on the other end of so many people have said to me, I was uttering cancer and I lost a ton of weight and people were telling me how amazing I looked, or I was suffering this, this grief, you know, this like life-changing grief. And people were just saying to me, wow, you just look amazing. Like, and it's, it's just amazing how weight seems to supersede all of that and how we're in that place. And it's so, it's just amazing how weight seems to supersede all of that and how

we're in that place. And it's so, it's just so warped, but yeah, with, with like Molly May giving birth, I haven't, I haven't seen that about her back in the gym. And it's, I already know that it will be in a really like positive light, like glorifying, like, wow, isn't she amazing. Oh my God, she's going to have a body back straight away. This is so great. She's allowed to do whatever she wants, right? Anyone can do whatever they want. Some people can go back to the gym within however, however long, you know, as long as it's safe, obviously, like I don't know the guidelines for exercising post-pregnancy, but as long as, you know, it's safe and it's signed off, whatever. But I think glorifying how quickly she gets back to the gym and sort of vilifying how long it might

take someone else to go back to the gym. That's the problem is the connotations we have of both, whereas both should just be neutral. Like someone wants to get back into the gym. Cool. Someone doesn't want to get back into the gym. Cool. Like it should just have the same weight, you know, pardon my pun. Yeah, I was going to say. It's interesting, isn't it? Because I know that you mention in your book, which I love, it's about comparison. And I think that is a lot of the root of the problem, isn't it? We all sort of consciously or subconsciously compare our bodies and our journeys to someone else's. Can you talk a little bit about that? Yeah. I mean, and the problem with all of this is that the is the

fact that none of this is neutral so newspaper headline is Molly May back in the gym in three weeks like that is loaded with these you know positive connotations and all of that feeds into and perpetuates the narrative that it's good to be thin and it's bad to be fat I'm going to actually reverse a bit because I said about comparison, but yeah, let's talk about the media first because we don't just have to talk about postnatal bodies because I feel like diet, weight loss, it's a culture that impacts all of us regardless of if we choose to have children or not. Obviously, it's more sick when someone is recovering from childbirth, But the media does just objectify women.

And what I really struggle with is seeing, da-da-da, flaunts their postnatal figure six weeks after giving birth. And what that basically says is, look how good they look even though they've just given birth. So any of you who don't look like that, what are you doing with your life? Yeah. If she can do it.

Mine's always Ashley James flaunts her generous cleavage. And I'm like, why is my cleavage generous? Generous? Imagine just like giving my nipples, just giving to charity. We're exposed to this all the time, aren't we? The media and bodies totally yeah and and all of this feeds into that comparison and the thing is is that like we are hardwired to compare humans are hardwired to compare and we're hardwired to compare and also it's really instilled in us

and it's all compounded at a very young age through like what grades we get in class and you know we're put in different sets and we're graded on our ability to on our athletic prowess and how good we are at sports so it's always we're always kind of taught to compare but then it all gets very heightened when there is so much emphasis on one thing and that's body size and being thin and social media massively you know intersects with that as well and really make you know it's a breeding background for comparison we know that about social media and we end up just feeling like we are inadequate it's so hard and it's so hard to tackle comparison a lot of tackling comparison I believe truly is rooted in self-compassion and it like it requires you to tap into self-compassion and really cultivate

self-compassion which is very difficult for us to do because especially like as women and I think being British does have a part to play in it as well we are not taught self-compassion we're taught that self-compassion is're taught that self-compassion is indulgent got to have compassion for other people but to have it for ourselves is just indulgent it's just like who do you think you are you know I I go as far as to say that I think the root of all of this body image stuff comparison body image everything the root of it or the root to solving it lies with self-compassion. Um, and, you know, obviously dismantling diet culture and the media getting rid of this notion that only one type of

beauty is beautiful. Um, but, but self-compassion and realizing that you can't, you just cannot compare yourself to someone else. It's such a, it's so unfair. like we are all completely different like our DNA is totally different we have had completely different upbringings we live in different environments our mental health is different our physical health is different like I could go on yeah whether or not we can afford child care that's a big one for like mums like because I couldn't even get into the gym even if I'd have wanted to for like the first few months we talk about like obviously diet culture and it is so ingrained into us from a young age so how can we dismantle diet culture because there might be women listening being like that's all very well I would love to be body confident but I also do want to lose weight and

I do want to go on a diet and that makes me feel shit because now I feel like I'm a shit feminist. I do want to lose weight. Does that make me bad? So how can we sort of like unpick our brains to dismantle that sort of diet culture? I mean, first of all, not to sound like a broken record, but like self-compassion. You're not a fraud. Like no one's a fraud. No one's a bad feminist for wanting to lose weight. Our entire lives, we've been literally, we've had like a world

screaming at us to lose weight, be thin, be the smallest person of yourself, shrink yourself, take up as little space as possible. So to overnight think, well, fuck it. I'm just going to love my body. Every inch of it. I'm going to stare at myself in the mirror naked. Like I am going to gain, gain weight and be okay with it. It's not realistic. And actually it, it, it probably that, that mentality probably does us more harm than good because we are just setting ourselves another standard, like something else to achieve that we can't achieve. And we end up feeling like a failure. So I think the first step is to be like, well, it's okay that I feel like this and it makes total sense. I feel like this, and this isn't going to be something like

self-love isn't a destination. And it's true. It isn't a destination. It's just like a constant journey, a constant unpicking of the beliefs that we, that we formed, you know, during our formative years and that we, you know, that we continue to form and unpicking those beliefs and deconditioning ourselves and realizing that this stuff isn't innate. I always go back to like, this stuff isn't innate. Like we are not born wanting to be thin. We are not born thinking that thinness is beautiful as is illustrated by places in Africa where, um, you know, fat is still seen as a sign of wealth and health and fertility and attractiveness. Like it's seen as a good thing. It's, it's not innate and it's just, it's diet culture and we've just been, you know, we've just been conditioned. And I think it's really

powerful to know that just as conditioning is possible I think it's really powerful to know that just as conditioning as possible. So it's deconditioning and we can get there, but it just takes a lot of time and a lot of work and a lot of being super kind to yourself and realizing that, yes, you probably will still want to lose weight and that's totally okay. But if you can just keep on questioning why you want to lose weight, keep on, make sure you just keep on questioning why you want to lose weight. Keep on, make sure you just keep on challenging yourself and try to get down to the bottom of, well, why do I want to lose weight? Because eventually that might lead you down to a place where you realize, oh, maybe it's, maybe this isn't actually what I need or what I want.

Maybe the problem isn't with how my body looks. Maybe it's with how I perceive my body. Maybe that's where the problem isn't with how my body looks maybe it's with how I perceive my body maybe that's where the problem is and maybe that's where I need what that's where the work lies rather than dieting I like this is this idea as well because I feel like we all look back on old pictures and think wow I looked amazing I want to get back to that that's what I want you know we look at our past whether it's obviously like pre-childbirth or because we were 10 years younger or whatever wow, I looked amazing. I want to get back to that. That's what I want. You know, we look at our past, whether it's obviously like pre-childbirth or because we were 10 years younger or whatever it is.

Like, I want to get back to that. I want to get back to that. But the problem is we didn't like our bodies. I bet none of us at that time, at that picture we were looking back at, were like really like, God, I'm fucking beautiful right now. I look back,

I remember like going to Barry's Bootcamp like a few times a week. I loved it. But I remember thinking, God, I should go more because I never felt comfortable wearing crop tops because I was like, I just don't have that figure. I literally had a six pack, but I didn't see it. And I kept like pinching the side of my waist being like, oh, like maybe I need to up my

barri- like barri so that I can have that body where I can wear whatever I want. And I had the body, but my mind didn't believe that I had the body. Yeah. And isn't that like, isn't that so cool that you can look back and see that and realize that, okay, it really isn't about how my body looks. Because I can look back and say, I had the body that actually I was desiring at the time, but I didn't think, but my body image was still really bad.

Like I still felt so bad about my body. Like that is such good proof that it's not about how our body looks. I find that like so powerful. I was going to say, I actually have it with my face. It's so weird. And especially because obviously pregnant, you can't get Botox or anything, but I really, and I hate myself for it. And I put so much pressure on myself, but I hate the fact that I can see myself aging and it's ridiculous. And I know it is. And I know that we live in this age of society and I should embrace

aging and age is a privilege. But because of all of those things, it's like looking in the mirror, being like, I'm enough. I should love my body when you don't and it's like yeah even when I look back at pictures from three weeks ago that I was like I'm not going to post that because I look disgusting I'm like god I look really nice there my skin looks amazing and I try to like adopt that when I look at current pictures of myself and I'm like no I look fucking disgusting I'm not posting it but it shows and it's our mind isn't it yeah but but I I feel like that is such a good step in like eventually getting there like when we can recognize it I think that's like such a cool thing and something else that I always I always cite as one of those like like light bulb moments as well as I remember remember seeing a girl, a woman who looked like me,

similar shape and size to me, very, very similar. And I remember looking at her and my first thought was she looks great. And then my second thought was, well, hang on. If I think she looks great and she, her body is super similar to mine. Why do I think, why am I, why am I so disgusted by myself? Like, why can't I apply my thinking of her to me? And then I was like, there is no difference. There is no difference. It's just how I perceive myself compared to others. And I'm just, I'm, I always, I always come back to that as such a cool example of like, God, it really, yeah, it's not about my body. It's my mind.

I always think this as well, because, you know, you mentioned deconditioning. So how can we decondition ourselves? Obviously, it's a slow, long process. But for me, it was following loads of different women of different shapes and sizes and ethnicities on social media. Because then instead of, you know, I remember the day that I used to have Emily Ratta, I can never say her surname, Emily Ratajowski.

Yeah, I think so. I used to have her body as my screensaver on my phone as like my fitspiration. And it's like, I would never have her body. Like we don't have the same body type. So all I'm doing is mate like making myself miserable it's like you know it's like me saying I want Tommy's body like unless I have surgery it's not it's not gonna happen but once I started like following loads of different people I stopped seeing beauty or body type as one type of you know sexiness being one type of unachievable

thing and actually now like my example is I love being on like the beat I mean I love being on the beach full stop but I love seeing like all these different bodies on the beach and I think like wow she's so beautiful I love her hips she's so beautiful I love her dimples I fucking love dimples under bums and like on legs you know like basically like little cellulite I love her dimples. I fucking love dimples under bums and on legs, basically like little cellulite. I love cellulite and health, so why don't I love it on myself? But I see all these different women, and I'm not like, God, well, she'd be beautiful if she lost a little bit of weight here, or she'd be beautiful if she looked a bit like this.

You just see this beauty and diversity, and the more people alter themselves, and I'm saying this as someone who does alter themselves with botox when as soon as i'm allowed soon as soon as it's out but it's like we kind of lose our uniqueness don't we and we all kind of end up looking the same but we can appreciate beauty indifference on everyone but ourselves and like i just I think it's like such a crazy place that we've ended up in where we think like only one type of beauty is beautiful and that we have to look like this certain way and you know and I had a conversation with someone it was a really difficult conversation

I didn't enjoy but basically he was saying to like, I don't think you truly do find like cellulite beautiful or like people who are, he used the term overweight, you know, like, I don't think you truly find that beautiful. I think you're just saying that. And it was interesting because I was like, no, no, I truly do not look at women with cellulite and think, oh, you need to get rid of that. Or look at women who, you know, someone like him would perceive to be overweight and think you need to lose some weight. I don't, I really don't. I guess this is a tricky topic, but you know, and he said to me, would you want to be, you know, would you want to be in a bigger body? And the answer to that is no,

because we see how bigger bodies are treated because of how society treats those bigger bodies and that's the difficulty here is that there is so much fat phobia and there is so much discrimination against fat bodies but it doesn't mean that it doesn't mean that we don't find them beautiful and I do mean that genuinely yeah I see so many like plus size women and I think god you're so like beautiful like genuinely like yeah they just they and I think it's a confidence thing isn't it it's like learning to accept who you are so that that's what makes you confident whereas I used to think if I could just lose a little bit more weight then I'll be confident if I could just lose a little bit more weight then I'll be happy if I could just lose a little bit more weight then I'll be confident if I could just lose a little bit more weight then I'll be happy if I could just lose a little bit more weight then

like a guy will see my worth but actually all these like bros that you see online now who are like if my wife if my wife has a baby and she puts on weight and it's like dude what do you think is going to happen when your wife ages 10 15 20 years like you're probably going to trade her in for an 18 year old girl because that is your mentality and that is not an us problem that is very much a you problem yeah and also he's gonna put on weight yourself he's gonna put on weight like it's it's like it's normal bodies fluctuate like unless you want a robot that's gonna happen like bodies are gonna look completely different as you go throughout life and god they're just idiots oh my god men with microphones

you get rid of them all men and all microphones obviously knowing you and reading your book and following your line that you started dieting from a very young age I think around 11 12 yeah what's your experience with diets and which ones work or basically I want you to say I want you to say that they don't work I don't know how to lead the question. Diets, oh my God, diets do not work. And we have like anecdotal evidence for this and we have like proper evidence for this. They don't, they just don't work.

I mean, yeah, I started dieting at a super young age and I have done, I think I have done, I probably need to like work this out, but I have done like almost every diet that has existed. I think I have done I probably need to like work this out but I have done like almost every diet that has existed I think I've tried it did you do the special k1 of course disgusting that was mad like I didn't even know about losing weight and I was doing the special k1 like that is genius but the sad thing is is I feel like people could come up with the most ridiculous things as diets and it probably would work it probably would people would buy into it because we don't like humans

don't like losing weight so it's difficult for us to do we our bodies don't like losing weight it goes against our biological instincts survival mode exactly yeah it's not an easy thing to do. It's very difficult. And so yet we're told that we have to do it at any cost. And so we end up desperate. We end up desperate. We end up trying anything that's like comes across our path, literally anything without, you know, with very little consideration of the consequences. And it's sad, but it makes sense that that's where we are. So yeah, I've tried every single diet, every single diet and no diet, genuinely no diet has ever worked. If you count working a sustainable long-term weight loss, nothing ever worked for me. The only thing that I ended up losing weight and sustaining it was because I had an eating disorder and I wasn't eating. I had an eating disorder and I wasn't eating. Do you mind me asking, what made you want to diet from such a young age?

Was there like a specific thing that was said to you or was there, like what made you at like 11? I mean, we even hear about girls and boys as young as six now, but what are people being exposed to or in your personal experience what was it that you were exposed to that you thought I I will be happier I will be happier if I'm thinner I grew up in a very diet culture heavy environment I think as a lot of us uh born in the 80s and the 90s as well I think a lot of us, you know, grew up in very diet culture, heavy, heavy environments. And I was, as soon as I became conscious of my body, I was aware of the fact that it needed to be smaller. And I was like a, I was like a chubby

kid. And I just became aware that something about that didn't feel right. And the people around me were valuing thinness very, very highly. And they were trying desperately to be thin and they were, they weren't very tolerant of fatness. And I think all of those, a mixture of all of those messages just kind of instilled, like form this belief system that in order for me to be worthy, I think worthy was the, was the real one for me, like, as well as like desirable and successful and happy, but I feel like worth was the core thing for me that in order to be worthy, I needed to be thin. And so as soon as I found out that food could, you could manipulate food in order to change your body size, that was it then. That was just it for me for a really long

time. I knew that that was my goal. I had to do it, but I found it so, so difficult as most people do with, with dieting. You know, I found it, I actually found that I dieted myself up in weight. Every single diet I did, I got a little bit heavier. Week by week, by month by month, I just got a little bit heavier. And that tends to be what happens to people who are chronic dieters and constantly on a cycle of dieting. And there is a great study that I cite. There's a study that says that 95% of diets are ineffective, right? 95% of times diets don't work. And this statistic has been contested. But there's another study from Finland and basically it was to do with twins. They followed twins and they followed their intentional weight

loss episodes. So how many times they tried to diet and the results basically were that the more intentional weight loss episodes, the higher the individual susceptibility to weight gain. And in both identical and non-identical twins who had diet who had dieted with their sibling didn't ended up heavier than their twin on average that's mad isn't it it's it's mad yeah so actually like some think that okay so you need to lose weight and the way you're going to get there is dieting and we're going to sell you this diet and we're buying into this diet and actually it's having the complete opposite intended effect on us and i i wrote about this in the book and saying like, imagine any other industry or any other

product with such a high failure rate, it wouldn't still be in existence. And I think to date, I think currently the diet industry stands at $192. billion dollars for a diet that basically does you know bugger all basically it's just unbelievable that's what really helps me when i kind of get sucked in on in whether it's diet culture beauty standards i have to be like people are telling us to be insecure so that they can profit from that from it but going on what you said around like diets making you gain weight I my experience of dieting in my 20s when I thought carbs were the literal devil was that because I would eat the smallest amount possible I would be hungry after finishing my meal therefore I was still thinking about food so I'd spend the whole day thinking about food but being like no i will win i will

win i will be thin and then and then ultimately you get to the end of the day and you're fucking starving so you'll eat an entire bar of chocolate and some crisps and a diet coke and then you're like ha i'm still winning and it's like actually just having like really healthy delicious meal would have a right been way better and healthier let's talk about health and thinness and how we often confuse the two yeah yeah but also i've literally spent my entire day thinking about food because my body is starving and i've just gone and binged ate binge ate binged, ate? Binged? Binged. On a load of shit. And I feel like loads of us will probably think that. And then we start putting a moral value on food, don't we?

Because we're like, salad is good. Chocolate is bad. And then, yeah. Health and thinness are equated. But also there are so many weird and crazy rules in diet culture around foods, foods that we should eat, shouldn't eat, that we end up having this massive distrust of ourselves and our own bodies and of food. And, you know, it was actually recently when I was recording with Em for the podcast and she brought in a banana to do this. She brought in some bananas to do this, this trick with me about pulling a banana. And so we did it. And then I was like,, this trick with me about pulling a banana. And so we

did it. And then I was like, Oh, I might as well eat the banana. And I realized that I, I really enjoyed the banana and I haven't had one for so, so long because I was, I just thought that bananas were really, you know, the devil because they were full of sugar. They're the worst fruit. They're full of sugar. They're just going to make you instantly fat and I was like oh my god I really like bananas I just like convinced myself you know that I didn't and I was so just like scared of bananas it's just it's just mad it's like sometimes when people do diets around me and they're like oh no I can't eat vegetables it's not my like my diet doesn't let me eat vegetables and I'm like what the fuck what diet doesn't let you eat vegetables like

it's when have vegetables been bad what's like with the Atkins diet the Atkins diet I used to come back to a lot I don't I don't know why I don't know I think like when we were growing up Atkins like low carb was like all the rage and I was just convinced and I watched documentaries people were like it's the best thing ever I you know weight loss sustainable blah blah so I'd always go back to Atkins and you don't you know at least on the two I guess the first two week of Atkins is like no vegetables allowed and I wouldn't eat any vegetables and I would be eating double cream double cream cream, like blocks of cheese, like just like gnawing on blocks of cheese, pure meat, only meat and no vegetables. Obviously no fruit, no fruit, no whey.

Obviously that's like an absolute no-no. And like how unhealthy is that? So what can we do? Because I mean, even I was watching Pepper Pig today with Alf and there's a lot of fat shaming in Pepper Pig about, you know, Daddy Pig. They're always talking about how fat he is. They actually did something that really pissed me off the other day. This is a total tangent, but they went to a fun fair

and they were doing the, what's the thing where you have to smash it down? Yeah, the hammer. The hammer one and then it goes like ding, ding, ding, ding, ding. And the stronger you are, obviously, the more it goes up. And Daddy Pig was basically like being a massive sexist bellend to his wife, being like, no, girls can't do that. Girls are too weak to do that. And I was like, what is this?

And I was like, Alf, obviously he can't understand, but I was like, Alf, girls can was like elf obviously he can't understand but i was like elf girls can do whatever they want girls can be strong but anyway obviously it is so like ingrained from a young age so let's say that we make a decision in ourselves if we you know let's say our postnatal journey is to keep it relevant to um to this okay i'm not going to do diets anymore because i know they don't work and actually you know I want to just focus on my health be healthy try and eat better food whatever it might be but whether it's your mother-in-law or your mother or your sister or your best friend constantly talking about diets around you or being like so you're going to lose

the baby weight like I had it with a friend in um well it doesn't matter what coffee shop because lots of coffee shops are available and she went to order a croissant and the person behind was like oh you'll never lose the baby weight if you order croissants literally a total stranger and we were both like okay oh my god but people are really bold to say what they think so whether that's rude whether that's commenting on your our bodies or whether it's talking about their own diets how can we filter that out so it doesn't affect us or how can we create boundaries so that people don't make those comments yeah i think that is a huge part of it is creating boundaries. And I know that

a lot of us, me massively included, find that really difficult to create boundaries because a lot of us are people pleasers, especially women. We do find it difficult and we're worried that people won't like us for creating boundaries, but your mental health is like your number one priority. And if you know that you're going to feel constantly triggered and constantly drawn into dieting and weight loss because of people mentioning how your body looks or mentioning weight, you just have to put those boundaries in place. And there is a super nice way of doing it. Like you can be so kind and, and you can be inviting as well when you're doing it rather than saying like, you do

this and it hurts me. You can say like, I actually don't want to focus on, on my weight and my body. And I'd love if you could help me in doing this by, you know, not bringing up weight and not bringing up body. I'd love if you could support me. So you're kind of like inviting people in to help you rather than saying you've done something wrong. I need you to stop, which I think is often can be taken quite badly and people can get defensive. So I think there's a really great way of doing it. And I think it's so, I mean, ultimately we can't completely filter out diet chat and diet talk. Um, that's so difficult. And I don't know what it's like to be, you know, after you've given birth and to be in a postpartum body.

And I can't imagine what it's like. And I bet it's really constant. I bet the talk of weight and diet is really constant. And aside from putting in boundaries, you can just, I feel like being as strong as you can in your core beliefs of what, what is healthy for you, what feels good for you, what feels right for you. I think if you can, you can have that, that foundation, then you can always go back to that. I find that with whenever I feel, you know, I guess like triggered and, you know, people around me are like, um, like idolizing this person who's super thin. And I start, you know, leaning, like falling back into that mindset of, Oh God, maybe I need to like lose some weight. Maybe I do need to be thin

again. And I always go back to what is, what is healthy for me? What, what is right for me? And what is like true to myself just to be really cheesy about it. And I know that that's the way, you know, pretty much the way that I'm living right now, where I have a good relationship with food. I have a, I have a, um, a relationship with exercise. It's a work in progress, but way healthier than it used to be. And I look after my body and my mind, which is what I was not doing when I was thin. So I always go back to that. And I look after my body and my mind, which is what I was not doing when I was thin. So I always go back to that. And I think the more you can strengthen that foundation and that core and strengthen your beliefs, which is by, you know, researching diet culture and doing,

you know, work on your body image, then you're building up this armor. So everyone get Alex's's book it's called you are not a before picture i've actually got it here oh thank you genuinely it is a really good one for what we'd say deconditioning yeah i i think i think so i hope so but the more you can learn about this stuff the better and then you just bit by bit, the more work you do, the more you look into this stuff, like every single bit of progress you make, you are building up your armor more and more and more. And eventually, hopefully those, those comments that people make, they will bounce off of you rather than penetrate and further form those belief systems around yourself,

they will just kind of bounce off of you. And, you know, you'll be able to stay in this strong place of what you know is like healthy and good for you. Does that make sense? I always think when I get sucked in, especially to comparing my postnatal body with whoever it might be, whether like, let's say, Emrata, who essentially gave

birth and a week later looked exactly how she did before giving birth um i always think this is probably like it's not it's not even meant to be bitchy but i always think yeah but she might also be shitting herself but yeah it's so silly because it's like because it it's not just about how her body looks it's about what is going on in the recovery. And it always helps me like snap back out of comparing because it's like, yeah, she might, she might look like that, but she might have postnatal depression. Yeah, she might look like that, but she might also be shitting not that I want people to struggle. I don't want anyone to struggle. I don't want anyone ever to have to shit themselves after birth. But it just makes me think that tip of the iceberg thing of like, it doesn't really matter how their bodies look. Are they functioning?

And is their mental health okay? And, you know, even going back to Molly May, I almost feel a bit sad for her that she feels like she's under so much scrutiny and I think she made a comment about how you know her bum she needs to tone up her bum and it's almost like oh isn't that so sad that diet culture has got her so badly that three weeks after birth she's worrying about her bum and it's not a judgment because I'm sure loads of people even listening will in the same way that I hate the fact that my boobs get will in the same way that I hate the fact that my boobs get so big and that's that's what will torment me as soon as my milk

comes in that I will have the most biggest fucking anonymous boobs and the NHS or the NHS pregnancy app was like one of the great things about pregnancy is that your boobs will grow so enjoy it while you can and I was like oh because that's all we want in life isn't it yeah NHS big boobs so men can stare at us validated I get what you're saying like you don't want anyone to struggle but we do have to keep in mind when we're looking at stuff that that makes us feel inadequate is we just don't know the half of it. You can't, you can't know. You, you just, you just don't have any clue when you see a picture on social media or like see, yeah, when you see this like snapback story, you just, we just don't have a clue. We don't know

the half of it. And I think we just do have to be really like gentle and also careful with the content that we consume. And again, like speaking as someone who hasn't given birth, like, and I don't want to sound patronizing because I've never experienced it, but like, I think it, I think it would be more crucial at that time, more than ever to really be careful with what you're consuming and really protect yourself in that time when you are feeling vulnerable and, and I don't know, like hormones are raging and you're dealing with, you know, it, life is very, I imagine, extremely intense at that, at that point and your body has changed so much. And I do think it's really important to protect yourself as much as possible in that time. And, and yeah, be careful with what you're consuming and just

know, like you said, you just don't know what's going on. You can't tell that by looking at a picture of someone and, and just stick to your, stick to your own journey and focus on yourself, which is, I know is easier said than done. And I don't want to sound patronizing, but, but yeah, I know that like the comparison isn't going to help you. It's probably only going to harm you. I love that. Cause also it's remembering that we have the power of who we follow and some people that we might've loved following, whether it's during pregnancy or beforehand, they might actually be quite triggering in your postnatal recovery. Especially if like, I mean, I, I unfollowed as if they're going especially if like i mean i i unfollowed as if they're going to care about this but i unfollowed all the kardashians and the jennies

because i was like i just don't like is as much as i admire them as business women and obviously i don't wish them any harm they embody a diet culture that i don't need to see and you know kylie jenner kept posting her weight like after birth and i just thought like even if that's your prerogative like why are you putting like why are you putting it up and it annoyed me and then i was like i'm not rather than me sitting getting annoyed at myself and yeah becoming like a keyboard warrior i'm just gonna like not see it right remove yourself yeah i think i think i genuinely think that's the best thing to do is just take yourself away from those things and i don't mean like, I think there's a balance to be had as well. Like, I don't think we should run away from everything that kind of challenges. I do think that like, when we are shown our

triggers, it's sometimes good to look at them and like that they indicate what work we have to do. But at the same time, you have to protect yourself and like, like you know wrap yourself up in a bit so that you can continue to just like function and and live without being just feeling so desperately unworthy you're in a unique position in that you're recently married and everyone is making the assumption that you're doing it because you can't conceive and you want children now. Right. Yeah. And I, and I've been, I've been like incredibly honest about this whole thing. I don't think I really considered it before I started talking about it. Like I'm a, I feel like we're quite similar. Like I just kind of share and I don't really, I'm an open book, you know,

and I don't really keep much back to myself, not intentionally, it's just the way I am. So I started talking about it. I think, I think probably without truly realizing how sensitive a topic is and how emotive it is for a lot of people. And I have been very honest about it, but I think people do still think that I'm lying and that I'm trying to conceive and not conceiving and therefore going down the IVF route, which isn't the case. I actually, I went for, I think it wasn't last year. It was a year before last. I went for a fertility test. They just test your AMH levels and it came back that they were really low. And for about a year, I just like felt really sad about it and also a bit powerless that I didn't know what to do,

but I knew that I wasn't ready to have children. I wasn't ready to try. So I was, I was just kind of a bit stuck and a bit like panicked, but also like too scared to do anything about it. It was like not very good. And then I eventually made the step then to freeze embryos. I went to the clinic and like got this process underway, but like it wasn't as simple or straightforward as that. And I only just, I think it was like seven months later, managed to actually do a round because of really irregular periods. And it's just, everything's all over the place.

Yeah, I shared it online and it has been something, like I wish I hadn't actually. Well, what's been the controversy around it? I mean I did acknowledge from the off that I am in a super privileged position to be able to to do this like it is such a privilege it's not cheap by any means it's super expensive and we have had to make you know financial sacrifices in order to do it but it just it felt like something that was incredibly important for me to do, like for my mental health and for our future. But I think, you know, a lot of people have just been very quick to, they want to continue to point out how privileged I am,

like continue, you know, continually. And it's like, I don't know what more I can do. Like, is it better if I just don't share it? And also I was, I was sort of accused as well of, of, um, like trivializing it and making it seem like something really fun to do, which it wasn't at all. I was just, I was sharing my honest experience with it. And actually the hormones that I took made me feel so great. I mean, afterwards was a different story. I felt it was horrific, but while I was doing it and going through it, like I felt so great. And I shared that because that was just my personal experience with it, but that did draw a lot of, um, a lot of criticism. So I ended up thinking like, this is a minefield I didn't realize. And I wish I hadn't gone there.

Do you know what? It's a shame that I feel like we live in this sort of patriarchal world that yes, of course it's a privilege. And in the same way that I can compare it to childcare, like, you know, we have the most expensive childcare in the world, therefore affording childcare is a privilege, but we shouldn't ever like weaponize that against women because actually we should fight for the fact that you know future-proofing fertility or IVF um for whatever reason that you need or want to do it

it shouldn't be a privilege like we should be fighting for the government to make it affordable we should be fighting for child care to be. And I find that it seems to be an attack that happens to women a lot more than men. And I know that, you know, of course, when you're putting your life online, people are always going to have lots to say, but I find it astonishing that men can like post pictures in fast cars and Rolexes and, you know, that kind of like male lifestyle.

And no one's like, Oh, that must be nice. How privileged that you can afford that. But yeah, I get it a lot. I bought myself a ring and I got a lot of like, Oh, well, it must be nice. And it's like, well, I did make a sacrifice, but also like I never got married. So in my head, I'm like, you know, if someone's trolling me and they're in a wedding dress, I'm like, but I imagine that your wedding costs more than this. So we all like to compare without thinking of like the sacrifice or the savings or the different people's priorities around it and i think it's a real shame and it seems to be something that women do to women but actually we need to remember that yes it is fucking annoying

if someone can afford something that you can't and regardless of what sacrifice they have to make but it's also not like society it shouldn't be a privilege like fertility access like let's campaign for it to be affordable so that we don't have to like make women feel shit for doing it right you're so right it does feel it feels very gendered and ultimately like my instinct is to justify it, but ultimately we shouldn't have to justify it. Like we can spend our money on whatever we want to spend our money on. And yes, I'm very lucky to be able to afford this,

which I do think should be available to everyone. But it was something that was important to me. So, but I agree with you. It does feel very gendered. I don't think, I think if Dave had an Instagram account, Dave, my husband had an Instagram account and he was like posting about his wife you know or us because it's us it's embryos it's us freezing embryos I don't think people would give a damn yeah but that's another thing isn't it it's

like yeah women have to go through it but it's it's it can also be a male I don't want to say issue but you know like the fertility is always put on the women but it could be because of the man and i actually know some people that went through ivf because and anyway that doesn't even make a difference to the so um one of your best friends has just had a baby do you find it hard to kind of be going through what you're going through and to kind of still see other people around you having babies or are you not like in that space because you're sort of future-proofing do you know what it is is actually doing something about it makes me feel better about the whole situation it's

taken a huge load off my mind to just know that I'm I am doing something about it. I guess what is slightly, I don't know if triggering is the right word, but when another friend like tells me they're pregnant and I guess it just reminds me of like, it makes me feel like this is what I should be doing. It reminds me of like, oh, you know, I'm mid thirties. Like this is what I should be doing too. And yeah, I'm not.

And I don't necessarily, I'm not necessarily desperate for it yet kind of induces this panic in me I suppose it's because there is a societal pressure or assumption that because you're married that you know it's like what when you're when you're in a long-term relationship it's like when you're gonna get married and then when you get married it's like when you're gonna have a baby then we have a baby and then it's like when you're gonna have another one and it's like at what point can we just, like, do you want me to have 10 kids, Janet? Fucking hell.

I'm still trying to heal my vagina. I've just had one. But it is like, we always like are very quick to assume that everybody wants that same sort of timeline and what's next, what's next, what's next? And when is it going to happen? The reality is, and like, this is why I feel so much for people who are struggling with any kind of fertility issue, because I think I said this online the other day as well, like the older you

get, the more your life becomes about babies, you know, because just by virtue of everyone around you having babies, you know, like, I think, I don't't think I have I think I have like one friend now who doesn't have a baby and apart from that all my friends have at least two and myself I've got four sisters all younger than me and two now have babies and your life does become about babies and you know someone replied to me on Instagram and said it doesn't have to I was like but it actually kind of does yeah well you can't really be like to your sister sorry I actually don't want I'm not going to play an active part in my niece and nephew's life thank you very much yeah I'm removing I'm removing myself from this like it just does so it's yeah I don't know it's kind of it's difficult and obviously it's no one

obviously it's like no one's fault it's just life life. It's just how it, how it happens. But it can be a little bit, it can be a little bit different, difficult, I think. And then there's obviously no solution to that. It's, you know, it's, but, but I guess it can be a little bit difficult and it makes you just feel like I just need to have a baby. Like there's just, I just feel kind of, I feel a bit left out to be honest. Yeah. It's that idea of like the grass can always be greener on the other side. Totally. Yeah, totally. That's so interesting, isn't it?

Because I'm sure I would feel differently if I had friends who was child-free. I think I would feel differently. But yeah, I do end up feeling a little bit a little bit left out for anyone who is thinking about you know their fertility journey for whatever reason um let's say in your situation where you like what was the process of like how did you find out you had a low egg count and then what was the subsequent process to like finding how to freeze your eggs yeah so I did a fertility test called hurt it used to be called grip and now I think it's called hurtility um and I I literally did a um an at-home test kit I did a drop of blood from my finger sent it off they came back with

really low result and I was like how can they tell that from a drop of blood from my finger, sent it off. They came back with really low result. And I was like, how can they tell that from a drop of my blood? There's no way. So I went and had a scan done, a transvaginal scan. And they confirmed that it was about right and that I have a low ovarian reserve. And it was from then. And I think it's really difficult. I found it really difficult to decide which clinic, because if you Google like fertility clinic, London,

it's about a fat, like a hundred results. And I was like, I have no idea. So I ended up going through a recommendation from my friend. And I do think that that is like, for me, that's the best way to do it because otherwise it's just a minefield. And I, I know that a lot of people go, go through, um, like results, you know, like the, you know, IVS success. Um, they go, they, they look at that to, to like determine which clinic they go to. But for me, it was just a personal recommendation. Um, and it's worked out really well. They've been brilliant. Uh, and yeah, I mean, I personally, everyone has a different experience and I think Sophie,

Paulie, who was on your podcast, um, and I followed her because of your podcast, actually, I followed her and I messaged her because I was having mine done at this. I was, I was doing a cycle at the same, uh, when your episode came out. came out and I think she had a really she did not have a positive experience with it at all yeah I think she went through three rounds and didn't get I think she didn't get many eggs which is horrific like to go through to go through all of that to go through the expense like it's so expensive to go through the expense to put your body through it to put your mind through it and to get you know really a low result is really um it's it's just it's brutal for me it's been a really positive experience and for anyone who is anyone who is feeling powerless I guess about

fertility in their future like it's such a an amazing way to take the power back into your own hands like to just to use a really cheesy word like so empowering I've I've found the experience like so empowering and so I would recommend it to other people but obviously everyone's experience is different and I know that it can be really brutal for some people oh well I would just say to you not that you've asked for any advice but like don't get sucked into the pressure of societal timelines because ultimately, I mean, if you do decide to have a child, like, obviously I hope everything goes well, but I feel like there's no, it's

a bad decision to do anything because other people think that you should be doing it. Yeah. It's got to be on your own time. And I think I do know that ultimately. A lot of pressure, a lot of pressure. Alex, thank you so much for coming to chat. I'm so desperate for a wee. My baby's moved onto my bladder, but a very abrupt ending. But thank you for obviously touching on your own IVF journey and obviously talking all about diet culture, especially because I know that as much as I try to resist, I will get sucked into moments of self-loathing. But thank you so much. And yeah, I'll chat to you soon.

Thank you so much for having me. I've loved chatting to you as always. I could talk to Alex for ages and ages. She's honestly like a fountain of knowledge around diet culture. And my email that I'm going to read out this week is from Sandra because it kind of touches on diet culture as well. So she said, Hey, Ashley, loving the podcast and the content you post on your Instagram. Thank you. It's so refreshing seeing you being so open about body changes because all our bodies change all the time and it's normal. Word. I wanted to get in touch as I was looking through some old photos from when I was around 20. I think I look amazing, but I remember when it was taken, I was feeling awful about myself. I have two little girls at the moment and know you are about to have your little girl. I don't

even want my girls to feel this way about themselves, but it's so hard to shield them from the perfect body mindset. I feel like it's everywhere you look. Do you have any plans to keep your girl loving their body to avoid them being sucked into this diet culture? I know it's hard as it's everywhere, but I don't want them to get sucked in like I was. Best of luck with your C-section. Love, Sandra. So interestingly, yeah, I think Alex sort of touched on it, but it's, you know, she alluded to growing up in a diet culture heavy household. And I think it's just us being so mindful. And I'd say it's not just around our daughters. It's also around our sons, not only because there is increasing sort of body image issues around young boys,

especially with that sort of like Love Island, Jim Bro body, boys especially with that sort of like love island gym bro body but also because they're listening to the way that a woman talks about herself and therefore shaping opinions and views on how a woman's body should be looked which obviously will play into how they respect and treat women in the future or what they think is acceptable for a woman's body and so I think like from my end it's just making sure that I talk really positively about bodies or not talk about them at all so you know I'm not going to be like oh you're so pretty or look how long your legs are like you you know like kind of reinforcing that to be to be good you have to have long legs or like oh you're like I remember when I was growing up it was always um not necessarily my mum but like even my mum's friends being like oh look how much

you're eating you're so lucky when you get to my age you won't be able to eat that moment on the lips lifetime on the hips and I remember getting into my 20s thinking, well, at what age will I not be able to eat the food that I want? And so I feel like I started dieting because I felt like I should because I, you know, oh, well, I must be at that age now where things will stick. So yeah, I think it's always enforcing that there's more than their bodies and the way they look, but also just being kind about yourself and about the way in which you speak about other people around them. So not being, you know, gossiping with your mates of like, oh, my God, have you seen so and so, whether it's a postnatal body or a woman or, you know, just being judgmental about the way in which they look. And also, I guess, having conversations. or a woman or you know like just being judgmental about the way in which they look um and also i guess having conversations so for example if i had a teenager now and she was really into love island

i guess it would be like what do you think about the body shapes on love island um you know or like making sure that they're following different exposed to different body shapes i know like disney are starting to do much better bringing out um sort of like more plus size disney princess characters and films so yeah i think it's that's a bit waffly but number one being mindful of what you say around them about yourself them them and other women. And number two, having open conversation with them around things that you see that might not be okay. I'm sure I did a really good podcast episode

with Molly Forbes. So if you flip back and go to that, because she's doing amazing work around trying to improve body image within children and schools and i talked about it also um in the context of having conversations with children around um like sexual consent with la la la let me explain so they could be two good podcast episodes to listen to as well so um yeah if you have any questions or comments from today then obviously you can email like sandra did at askmumsthewordpod at gmail.com and you can leave

a review on apple podcast if that's where you listen which is great because obviously it means more people get to find me or you can get in touch on whatsapp where you can send a voice message it's free you can do it anonymous if you want And the number is 075-999-27537. And I'll be back with another episode, hopefully, unless I have given birth. Same time, same place next week. Own each step with Peloton. From their pop runs to walk and talks,

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