Mum's The Word! The Parenting Podcast - Anna Whitehouse on the Fight for Flexible Working

Episode Date: July 17, 2022

Journalist, presenter, author, campaigner and columnist Anna Whitehouse aka Mother Pukka joins Ashley to talk about the Flex Appeal campaign to fully implement flexible working nationwide, the spiralling costs of childcare, and the importance of flexible working in promoting inclusivity. If you want to ask Ashley a question, get in touch at [e-mail]---A Create Podcast Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

well hello from a highly anxious mum today i've got a mum bun in my hair i feel like you know it's a tough day when the mum bun comes out but we are in early july and i have just learned that in august i do not have child care because childminder has a holiday, which she's perfectly entitled to. So for six weeks from August, I need to find childcare. It's actually a very, very well-timed podcast episode because I have been trying to get this person on my podcast for so long. She is a friend of mine, but also arguably one of the most important voices in the parenting space. She is a bestselling author, a presenter. She has her own podcast, which I was lucky enough to go on really recently. She's a journalist and she is also a flexible

working campaigner. It is Anna Whitehouse, aka Motherpucker. Hi! Hello! I'm actually so excited to talk to you about so many things, but I'm also hoping that you can just calm. I'm honestly like almost shaking with anxiety around childcare. How do you do it? You're a mum of two. I mean, you must go through this stress even with school every summer like what do you do because it the maths isn't mathing to me that we don't get six weeks holiday from work but we suddenly have to look after a child for six weeks on our own I'm new to this help me well it doesn't I think that I can't really ease the anxiety because that's kind of why I set up Flex Appeal because I hit the same wall so I used to live in Amsterdam in Holland,

where the childcare system is remarkably different. So they do not allow you to go back full time as a mother and a father. So they have a mama duch and a papa duch. You categorically don't go back full time because they recognize that having a child is a full-time job. So already I had one child in Holland and then came to the UK and had the other child here. And I was hit with that brick wall of what ultimately leads to, as you've experienced, discrimination against generally women. Because when you look at who has to paper over the childcare cracks because of gender pay gap, unequal pay, it tends to be the women. So I think that's the first thing I'd say is you and I are both feeling that anxiety still, and I fight for this. And I'm still the one that

has to shoulder the sort of burden of childcare because of the way the system's set up. But it is sadly set up for us to fail at the moment. So does that help your anxiety? No. Well, this is what I think is really interesting because I obviously knew you before I was a mum. So I kind of knew you just from events. And it's only really when I became a mum that I opened my eyes to not only lots of the struggles, but also a lot of the things that parents, but especially mothers have been shouting about probably for decades. But I feel like before I was a mom, I just kind of saw it as like mom, mom, people having mom conversations. And then obviously when I became a mom and I

started experiencing a lot of the same anger, whether it's around postnatal care, the cost of childcare, whatever it might be, I have a very loud voice. But what's amazing about you is you're not only using your voice on socials, but you're actually actively working to change laws with Flex Appeal. And I just think it's incredible. And I mean, I'm not surprised that you're still hitting your head against a brick wall. But how did you actually get into it I believe that you were working as a journalist or journalist or for L'Oreal in in London and a few years ago when you had your kid and so what fueled your anger to be do you know what I'm not only going

to be annoyed about this I'm going to change some laws do you know what it came from was I had probably what every I'm not going to say just a woman has. I think everybody has that imposter syndrome. Why is my voice relevant? Who am I? What have I got to say? And I kept thinking someone else was going to fix things. I kept thinking there was someone with a more relevant voice. There's someone who's angrier than me. And I kept thinking someone else is surely going to fix this because this system is not just broken. It's stacked against us. And I think the moment for me, I want to clarify, I didn't leave L'Oreal because I wasn't worth it. It was very worth it. I had a wonderful boss there who is still one of my really close friends. And I remember

just asking her for a bit of flexibility. And she thought I was great. I thought she was great. And she said, I'm so sorry, Anna, I can't give this to you because it would open the floodgates to other people seeking this kind of flexibility. And I remember thinking, God, if someone who's good at their job, who's asking for just to come in 15 minutes earlier and leave 15 minutes early is not being afforded that flexibility, knowing I'd have to leave because I had another baby on the way. Why are they losing that talent? So I remember that's where the anger came from. That was the moment, Ashley, was you're losing good people. It wasn't about what does a mom need?

What do my kids need? What does my husband need? What do families need? It was why are businesses losing talent? Because I'm brilliant and my friends are brilliant. We've all got so much to give and you're simply slamming the door in our face as soon as kind of sperm hits over. For what reason? And I think that's when I started to get angry. And it came from, as you will experience and understand with Alf, this primal, maternal, visceral place that takes over. Or you think, I don't care if I'm not the right voice for this. I'm so angry because I cannot, like you cannot, raise my little girls, your little boy, for the same fall that I had. That same moment. And I'm saying specifically boys and girls because it's partners I hear from

more than I sometimes hear from women going, I want to be a dad. I want to be able to see my children, but yet my boss is assuming childcare is on my wife's shoulders or my partner's shoulders. So it's not just stacked against those who are fighting against the system like me, like Jolie from Pregnant Then Screwed, like the Fawcett Society, Stella Creasy, the list goes on, is for dads who want a dad too. And I think it's to try and balance that system. So it came from a place of primal maternal pain that I couldn't raise them to work hard in their ABCs, to work hard in their A-levels, to work hard in their maybe college degree, university degree,

to get that job, to have the same door slammed in my face. I think we spoke last week on my podcast that definitely felt shut in your face. What? Just because you had a child. I can't raise them for that. It's so interesting, isn't it? Because I mentioned on your podcast, but I'm experiencing that because I'm a DJ I'm almost having to fight

so hard to prove that I can still be a DJ as if my talent has suddenly disappeared now that I'm a mum but I do feel like we are written off and I see it in friends who are in the corporate industry as well. And I saw stats actually from you that 54,000 women lose their jobs in the UK every single year. It might have even increased, I'm not sure. But that is just the most mind blowing statistic that I kind of regurgitate all the time to try and make it obvious how much of a issue this is. And nobody has ever questioned Tommy's ability at work, even though he has also become a parent. But yeah, it does feel like we are having to almost fight. And one really triggering sentence that I come up against all the time is, you know, you have mums and then you have career women. And as someone who has tried for years, I am a career woman through and through. I knew I never wanted to make sacrifices to my career by having a child, but they make it so bloody hard. Like I don't, I just don't understand it. And I'd love to know, because I see it in the news all the time, don't understand it. And I'd love to know, because I see it in the news all the time,

this idea that working from home or flexible working is described as slacking off. What are your thoughts on that? Because I see it come up all the time. I think it even came out of the mouth of our own prime minister. It did. Yeah. I mean, I think I'd like to just interject here with what Boris Johnson specifically said about working from home was that he often found when he was working from home that he would obviously wander to the fridge, have a little nib of cheese, go back to his desk, have a coffee maybe on the way. And then he'd totally forget what he was doing at his laptop. Isn't it quite ironic that he does work from home? He works in number 10 down his street. Now we know why our country is a shit show. I'm like, God, because Boris Johnson can't control himself around a cheddar.

You know, that's ultimately where we're facing it. Cheddar and women. But I think what is fascinating in Reece Mogg and Boris Johnson pushing everybody, you know, back to the office. And I want to be clear, it's not as binary as office or home. It's core hours. It's or home. It's core hours, it's compressed hours, it's job shares. It's not just this, you're sitting at your kitchen table or your office HQ. But the two of them kept saying everybody back, but with no facts, no figures pointing towards, oh, are we more productive at home or at work? Whereas the

lead economist lecturer at Stanford University, Nicholas Bloom, he did the biggest survey, biggest study on working from home the world has ever seen. And he found those that work from home at call centers, so he divided 16,000 employees, it's a massive survey, found that those that work from home were 13% more productive. So it's the biggest survey of its kind. No one hears about this because all you hear is the government going, everybody back because we need water cooler moments. And you've got to think about why do they want everyone back? It's because the newspapers aren't selling because obviously people aren't going into town centres.

So the headlines are going to be skewed against working from home because those very same newspapers want to sell the paper. So it's in their interest to go, God, it's a real shit show. And also, I suppose, they made city centres so expensive that no one can afford to live in them, so they all became offices. And now if people aren't going into the offices, then we are being blamed for shops and cafes and all of those places. Not, you know, it's bad for the economy.

But actually when I lived in Battersea over lockdown, a friend of mine owned a cafe there, amazing cafe called Farmer's Mistress. And she said it had never been better because suddenly all the people that were spending in the city were actually spending in Battersea because they were popping out for a coffee break or a lunch break. So it is interesting.

It's not going to go. Exactly. That business isn't going to go. It's just going to spread out in a healthier ways. It's not going to be as concentrated. And I don't know about you, I love a Pret sandwich as much as the next person. But if I had to choose between a Pret wrap and closing the gender pay gap, I think I'd know which way. Prep wrap, the avocado wraps the triumph. But it's that. And I don't know about you, but I've never had a particularly great water cooler moment. They keep saying, we need to get everyone back for this huge socializing project. But actually, again, they're forgetting that most companies that are making it work now

are doing the hybrid model, where you ebb and flow between home and HQ, looking after your family where you can, working and crossing over in the office where you can. It's not this draconian binary way it's been described in the headlines at the moment. But yeah, I think the final point on that is I'm so done with it being called anything other than inclusive working. I've said it over and over. Stop seeing it as some big thing that you have to do. Do you want to include talent?

Do you want to include Ashley James at the next festival you are at? She's a brilliant DJ. How do we include her talent? Not, oh God, she's a mum, let's write her off. How do we include Anna Whitehouse at this editorial meeting? She's a great journalist. We want to get her there. Is it through Zoom? Is it that we come together here? How do we think flexibly around talent? How do we include somebody

who's disabled and cannot get to the office, but could bring extraordinary ideas to your board level conversations? It's inclusive working. It's nothing else. Anyone against flexible working is against inclusion. It's that simple. It's also what I find frustrating. So I've not worked in an office for about a decade now, but Tommy works in an office and he loves his job. Thank God that they allow flexible working. But they did say since lockdown they expect them to go back into the office three days a week fair enough seems reasonable but my frustration is let's say that Tommy has to go in from eight to five five at a push because let's be honest if

you work in one to five in an office you'll kind of look down on for leaving on time I remember in my office days I'd sometimes stay for an hour and I wasn't doing any work. I just didn't want to be the one to leave. So I'd be like on Facebook or whatever. Like I wasn't being productive. I just didn't want to look like I was slacking, but Tommy's not like me. He's actually very productive, but the frustration I have, let's say that he needs to get into the office for eight. His commute is an hour long from Essex into St. Paul's. He's gone before Alf wakes up. So I know that that morning, even though I have work, which obviously I'm my own boss, I can be flexible. But that day,

I have to try and get myself ready and try and get Alf ready and try and get him to nursery and then come back and do my job on time. And then because he will finish around 5.30ish and then he'll get back 6.30 on a good day, maybe he can do bedtime. But if he's got anything social on that, you know, is an expectation that they do, then he misses bedtime. So not only is that shit for Tommy, but it's also shit for me because it puts the child rearing of that day purely on me, who is also doing my work. And if I'm going on to TV, like GB News in the evening, I have to leave. My taxi leaves at seven. So Tommy normally has to rush back and we do this mad swap around. And the thing that frustrates me is he sometimes doesn't want to go into the

office because he is not as productive in the office as he is at home. And he says it all the time. I just wish I could stay at home because I get so much more done. Whereas in the office as he is at home. And he says it all the time. I just wish I could stay at home because I get so much more done. Whereas in the office, I have to talk to people. I lose those two hours either end of the day from commuting. But then we see this narrative that everyone who works from home is slacking. And in his case, and I'm sure in many people's cases, it's so much further from the truth. And he is one of the lucky ones as well, because he does have that element of flexibility that I wish everybody could have. But I find it so annoying that there's just this assumption that the other parent will do the rest of the work then. Yeah, well, it's coming back to your point about slacking is there's, when I started doing this campaign, there was this assumption that anybody that worked remotely or worked part

time was a slacker, was maybe just watching homes under the hammer in their undercrackers. That was the assumption. And the thing that I've been trying to push so hard is that, so if you did work part time, whether that's part time hours in the office or hybrid working like Tommy does, just because you are in that construct doesn't mean you're part-time, doesn't mean you're part-talented, part-driven, part-invested. It simply means less money for you. Fewer hours, less money. And so few people can get their head around that. And actually, most women I speak to who go down from a five-day week to a four-day week end up getting less money doing the same job in four days. So it's essentially extortion.

Any employer is going to say, yeah, absolutely, we'll pay you less, do the same job, burn you out, and we're the winners here. So, you know, if anything, it's not slacking. And they kind of then get overlooked for promotions as well. Oh, yeah, completely. And it's, it's it's that frustration of that narrative like i'm saying my dad he was one of my biggest critics when i started this so he worked at a big law firm he was very white collar very sort of all men at the top

at board level and he would sort of say to me, what's this, you know, flexibility in that generation, you know, quite an archaic mindset was kind of like madness to him. And he said, yes, what are you doing? And he said, actually, and he came around to it a year or so in. And he said, I agree with you. And he said, the problem we've got is the way people refer to this flexibility. Because he said, if you think of a job share, why don't you call it job pairing, like pairing two brilliant minds together? So if you and I were to job share, Ashley and Anna, you're not just dividing that work, you're putting these two brilliant women

together who are hungry for that job to see their families, who are going to give you more sort of bang for your buck ultimately. And I think that was a really nice moment for me where someone with that archaic mindset was going there's a different way of even saying this you know you're adding value to that workforce but I can't be I can't be doing with the slacker narrative you know I think what companies need to do is go right what is Tommy doing Tommy doing? What is Anna doing? What is Ashley doing? Measure it. And then look at promotion based on that. But stop with this. If I can't see you, you're not working. Because like Tommy said, most people I speak to prefer to have that hybrid model where they're a bit more in control of where and when they work. The thing that blows my mind with

it is surely it makes good economic sense to have two parents working. Even from the most cutthroat politician, they surely want that tax revenue from two people instead of one person. But what I don't get is, have you ever genuinely asked somebody to do the maths in response? Because let's say that the best childcare or school starts at 8.30, even eight if you have like a preschool, which I know not all schools offer or people can't necessarily afford. But let's say the best you could get for school or nursery might be 8am and school finishes at 3.30. My child, mine, I have to pick them up by 5pm on the dot. School finishes at 3.30.

My childminder, I have to pick him up by 5 p.m. on the dot. But jobs don't let you out two hours earlier. How are they mathing that maths? What are they saying? What is the response to when you say, so who's looking after the children on either side of those? You mean towards your employer? Towards the employer or the politicians. Let's say we we asked boris okay

you you want us to stop slacking you want us to uh go back into the office quick question because school starts at this time and it finishes at this time how can i make that work like who's gonna there's no there is no this is the thing it's pretty bleak and this is why stella creasy's campaign this mum votes so important. It's because the reason no one understands what we're going Liz Truss, who is the woman who is essentially meant to have our backs at a point where we're living in some kind of handmaid's tale existence of going backwards in terms of equality. The woman who is meant to hold us, have our backs and support us scraps the very thing that gives us transparency on where we are. So this is where Stella's

campaign is essential. We need to get more women in parliament, more women in government, more female MPs to fight against this setup, to simply go, look, it's really great that you've got wraparound childcare, Boris, and all the money in the world to look after your children and that Carrie can maybe step back a bit and that you're number 10 Downing Street and that's quite good for commuting. Great that that's your situation. But what about everyone else? What about us plebs? Yeah, what about us on literally on the sort of front line of childcare where, and actually what's really interesting coming back to raising a son. And I really don't want this to be just about women and raising little girls into a

more equal society. That's definitely part of it. But the only way we'll have equality is seeing men step up and not hearing those quips in Parliament that Stella was saying to me a couple of months ago. She said, it's still that, oh, I've never changed a nappy in my life. You know, the badger on us. Quotes Jacob Rees-Mogg. changed a nappy in my life. You know, the bad... Quench Jacob, Reese Mogg. All of that narrative is just so painful to hear. And I think, yeah, we need... So I heard from a dad the other day who said, I put my flexible working request in. So perhaps like Tommy, where you're at a point where you've hit real rub in your relationship and working

relationship. And I hear from this all the time, the pressure on relationships to navigate this impossible jigsaw puzzle of childcare and work. In that relationship, it's caused many to crumble. And I heard from this guy and he said, oh, I put my flexible working request in to my boss. And I said, I'd love to pick up my daughter on Tuesdays and Thursdays means leaving on the dot of like 4.30 if that's okay. And his boss, this is 2022, said, can't your missus do that? And he was like, she's a brain surgeon. She needs to be in surgery on Tuesdays and Thursdays. He was a recruitment consultant, nothing to do. You do not need to be at the top of the medical profession to be afforded flexibility, but it was a stark reminder of where mindsets still are. And it was just that, can't your missus do that? In one comment,

we've spoken about it, you and I at great lengths, the misogyny just laced in that one moment where it is assumed if you put alf in that position it's just assumed that no you're not going to get to see your child you're not going to get those moments i find it quite interesting because say we are in a position that i know is rarer but also not unique that i am the breadwinner in our relationship so when i was going through that first year of resentment of like, your life's gone back to normal. And why do you get to go back into the office? Like, what? So you're just going to leave me on my own all day and I have to do the morning and the evening? Like, what the

fuck? And I remember being like, but it's not fair because if surely if one of us was to have to give up our jobs, it wouldn't be me. And that is, I think, also what a lot of society forgets that, you know, you have mothers who are barristers or any of these things. But it's always presumed that it's still the woman's job regardless. And I spoke to someone who is a barrister and who put on the school forms, please contact father. And whenever whenever the child is sick, they will still call her and she can't answer because she's in court. whenever the child is sick, they will still call her and she can't answer because she's in court, her phone's off. But yet, they will not phone the dad who could probably, or is the only one that would be able to pick up the child. So it is so backwards, our mentality. It's so frustrating. And actually, on that point, I'm about to head to the Law Commission,

literally after this podcast episode, because we've just put evidence in to the Law Commission literally after this podcast episode, because we've just put evidence in to the Law Commission for shifting the legislation on flexible working through them, not through government. And the four barristers I'm working with, I get quite emotionally even talking about it because what they have gone through to get to the top of their careers. They are the UK's top equality employment barristers. And these four women, what they have gone through with their family lives, having children, holding on to their careers, careers that, because I started out as a barrister and I did my pupillage just down the road from where they did theirs.

And I remember looking, looking out there and going, there's no one past 30 who's had a child and has sustained a career in this industry. And I remember thinking, I've got to do something else. I want a family. And at that age, I was 21 and I quit the career I wanted to do because the optics alone were terrifying. And I get so overwhelmed being in the same room as the women who did fight through it, who got the career. It's interesting as well, isn't it? Because the future Florence Nightingale or Marie Curie

or whichever amazing female leader or scientist or whoever it might be from history, imagine if that person is here in the present, but she's one of the 54,000 women who had to leave her job because she just so happened to want a family and couldn't afford childcare or wasn't given flexible working. Yeah. It's mad. It's absolutely, yeah, it's heartbreaking because also, and I don't know if you've experienced this, I'd love to know that when you get somebody who has fought so hard to hold on to their career, at the cost of maybe having a child entirely, the cost of their relationship, it takes

so much more out of women to smash through those elusive glass ceilings than it does of men just because of and this isn't a man bashing exercise. But just the way things are stacked, it is harder, significantly harder biologically, emotionally, financially, you know, on a quality level to get to the top. You often find that those who've then got to the top are so resentful of what they had to go through that then they don't help out those trying to come up after them. Then when they see people like me or you being afforded some flexibility within the TV world or in the broadcasting world or in law, then they're going, but look what I had to go through. So you with me, Yvette Fielding, a brand new podcast bringing together people's real ghost, extraterrestrial and paranormal stories, as well as getting some inside details from those who study the supernatural.

I'll be listening through your paranormal stories every week and try to understand them as well as chatting about my own encounters with an occasional paranormal investigator too you can find us wherever you get your podcasts from including Apple Podcasts, Spotify and Acast just search for Paranormal Activity with Yvette Fielding and then you hear comments like well having children's a lifestyle choice with Yvette Fielding. And then you hear comments like,

well, having children's a lifestyle choice. If you didn't want to have children, then you shouldn't have children. I fully hear you. So what, we've obviously got both got frustrations and I know all of you listening will have your own frustrations. However different the common ground is, it's so hard.

What is your ideal with flexible working? And also, and here's another question, how does it affect people who don't have children? Because I hear this a lot, it's not just for people with children, but I've never quite fully understood. I mean, of course, I'd love flexible working pre-children, but what are the benefits to those child-free people? Well, I think it comes back to, can we stop calling it flexible working and start calling it inclusive working? Because whether you have a child or not, there are people who are disabled who cannot get into an office and have been written out of the workforce. So all I want is Boris Johnson is talking about building back better. So the working world as we knew it on the 23rd of March 2020 was smashed down, breeze blocks on the floor. It was ours for the taking, it felt, that it was

proven that companies that didn't log on or zoom in simply had to shut down. And when cold, hard cash is at stake, I think it was really interesting to see what was possible. when cold, hard cash is at stake. I think it was really interesting to see what was possible. But what I want so deeply is what I've just said to you about those four women I'm working with, those four barristers who could have been me. I wanted that career and I curtailed that career because of the inequality in the system that I could quite literally see in front of me. And I think instead of building back better, which is what Boris Johnson is saying, I want to build back differently. And differently is for everyone. It cannot be pegged to female shoulders. One of my favorite women is, she's sort of head of finance at Virgin.

And she's like, oh my God, I can't stand children. No, not at all. Not for me. And she said, but I really love going to the V&A at 9am on a Friday morning and having two hours there when there's no children around, when it's peace. And that is when I get my headset and I will obviously hit my deadlines and I'll maybe work a little bit on a Saturday and maybe I work a little late in the evenings. But she puts in her diary at the V&A. It's transparent. It is clear. It is not about parenting. It could be feeding your pet iguana.

It could be going to look after your father who has Alzheimer's and needs a cottage pie on a Tuesday. Otherwise, he feels quite unsettled. It can be any human reason. And the only job that we found you couldn't do, perhaps flexibly, was on an oil rig. So ultimately, it is not about, yes, it's not about knackered mums. Or as somebody in the Daily Mail comment said, never read them. No.

It was, oh, that's that woman who's just fighting for tired mummies and their children covered in Weetabix. And I was like, no, do you know what? I'm exhausted. I'm a tired mother simply by hearing those comments. I have the facts. I have the figures. We did a Flexonomics report, the biggest report, financial report ever to be seen with Sir Robert McAlpine. If companies got on board with flexible working, there would be a 55 billion pound boost to the UK economy at a time where there's labour shortages this isn't about mums wanting to see more of their tired children and everyone wanting to be there you know at the school pickup

this is as much for Anne who wanted to go to the V&A and that clears her mind and she's more productive it is as much for NHS workers who perhaps Birmingham Women's Hospital, for example, they've implemented ward-led rostering. So it's not about flexibility in the traditional sense of having three-day hybrid model. They basically hand over, the matron hands over the power to the nurses. The nurses decide their roster and they say, so if you were the matron, Ashley, they'd be like, by the way, we've all arranged what we're doing this week. She's going to nativity play on Tuesday. I'm covering her. I've got date night on Tuesday, next Tuesday, I'm covering her then.

And so the matron is then freed up from this logistical nightmare that she's having to deal with. And it gives the whole of that ward more autonomy over their time. They're a team. They work together. They cover each other. Flexibility can work everywhere. And they were not just parents. And it was the hardest facts on that were that there are fewer deaths on wards that are led flexibly. So no, this is not about knackered mummies. This is about lives, the lives of those who want to simply become engaged to their boyfriend, not disengaged. It's the lives of my boss in Amsterdam. I'll never forget him managing me and him, New York and London calling in and going,

we need this call. It has to happen. And he just went, no, Amsterdam is not on that call. We'll be on it tomorrow. It's just shoes. It's handbags. I was working at Tommy Hilfiger at the time. He said, we'll be on that call tomorrow. We need more managers to step up in that way. What I want is this to be cultural change. I don't want to wait till there's legislative change. I don't want to wait for my daughters, your sons, to get to that point where the door is shut in their face and someone says to Alf, well, can't your missus look after the kids? No, I want to. And also what's interesting because you have the one side of it that's flexible

working by the way I was clapping silently throughout all of that but you have the one side of it which is flexible working but then you have the other side of it which is the astronomical cost of childcare and I love that in an Instagram post recently you called yourself a hacked off mum and I think you that I mean that is how you could describe all of us and probably a lot of dads as well with the cost of childcare in our country. A lady got in touch on my Instagram from Norway who said, but by the way, prepare yourself because you might want to book a ticket to Norway when you hear this. I know you'll be sat at home being like, what? So in Norway, childcare is a public service. You get it from one years old. It's very normal for your child to go into childcare full time. It's £1,000 a month,

and the government pays £700 a month. And if you choose not to send your child into childcare, you get to keep that £700. So a stay- home mom or a stay at home dad would get 700 pounds a month towards looking after that child. I know it's, I mean, it's not great for a full time job, but they get recognized unlike in our country where apparently women carry out 60% more, 60% more unpaid work in childcare, cooking, domestic chores than men. So it's a start. And so you would be paying for full-time child care 300 pounds a month and that would allow you to go back into work i think also in norway but i can't create on this you get equal parental and paternity leave yeah maternity and paternity

use it and use it or lose it basis so if you don't use it then you simply lose it so why so it encourages that equality. So I was in Sweden a couple of years ago on a press trip and I was with a New York Times journalist. And she was like, what's with all these male nannies everywhere? And I was like, they're dads parenting. And it was coming back to optics. You know, the concept, she was like, are you kidding me? I'm like, yeah, they're dads. That's how it works here. The dads care for the children too. And I think that's

coming back to where this started with where I was in Amsterdam, that support you get there. So 10 days after you have a baby, you have what's called a cramzorg, which is a maternity nurse who looks after you, the baby is living with you for 10 days to help you breastfeed. This is all on the NHS equivalent over there. Because if they invest in a mother's mental health in those first 10 days, it costs the equivalent of the NHS less later on. If you invest and support mothers at that juncture, not just mothers, but anybody going through anything human, we're all humans. We're not cogs in some hulking great machine. If you treat people as humans and go, how can I help you through this tricky moment, you will retain that talent and that staff and your company will

grow quicker. And I think that's it, the childcare costs. I mean, I think the Trades Union Congress recently did a report, since the Tories have been in power, childcare costs have gone up per child per year, £2,000. Wow. That is, it was already like a second or third mortgage. And I was paying when I quit and set up Flex Appeal, I was paying about £5, I think it was 45 pence we worked out when my salary had had childcare costs taken out of it. I was paying £5.45 to go to work to retain my career. Of course, it's not all on me. It is my partner as well who needed to take that. But say if I was a single mum, what do you do? It's just stacked against those that need support the most. I think I was chatting to a friend of mine

who has been a stay-at-home mom so far, and she really wants to go back into work. And she was saying the other day that she's found a nursery in my area to do two days a week is £1,500 a month. She was saying to me, I don't even know if it's worth me going back to work because number one, I've been off for two years. So who's going to take me seriously? And number two, if just for those two days, so I can only work two days, what kind of job am I going to get that will pay for that? Why do you think we do have the second most expensive childcare in Europe? I think this is something that, and I want to really be clear, this is not against the incredible childcare providers who are on minimum wage, I think one in four from the

Early Child Alliance, one in four key workers for our children right now is burnt out and considering leaving. So we have a real exodus from the childcare sector at a point where, did you see the government reforms yesterday? Oh yeah, so they're talking about altering ratios for two-year-olds from 1.4 to 1..5 i'd love to know what this means because we were talking about it again with my my mum friend yesterday and she was saying oh but my family live in scotland and it's that that's the case there so is it that much of a big deal it works out about you save parents about 40 pounds a year it's not significant you burn out more child care staff you're asking those who are predominantly women again who are on minimum wage essentially looking after our children you're asking them to jeopardize health and safety you're saying right

yeah take on more children and that's going to fix the system no it's paper it's not even papering over the cracks it's and this is where the brilliant work of Stella Creasy, Jolie, Pregnant Then Screwed, The Fawcett Society, Working Families, Maternity Action. I want anybody listening right now to know, look, this isn't just some bleak landscape. There are people, there are organizations, army behind any woman or man right now listening to this going, do you know what? I've lost myself. I've lost what I was focused on my drive. I can't fight anymore. Like you were saying, Ashley, like I'm still a great DJ, but why am I fighting to let people know that when I am great and somebody who doesn't have a child

plonked next to me, probably we will get the job over me. For what reason? and somebody who doesn't have a child plonked next to me. Probably we will get the job over me. For what reason? That I happen to be a mother. That weight of discrimination, I don't want anybody listening to think it's bleak. It's not.

There are wheels in motion to change this. The reasons why childcare costs are so extortionate, I don't know. This is the problem. I don't know what is happening, why the government is not prioritizing supporting this sector because we have a labor shortage. So, it's clear maths to me. We're looking at the economy. We need more workers in position, free up that talent, employ and sort of invest in the childcare sector like other countries do. This isn't some fantastical idea plucked out of the sky.

It works. And ultimately, I think it comes down to the fact that we've got the wrong government in power who don't prioritise equality. You don't prioritise anyone outside of their sort of very elitist circle. Yeah, I mean, literally that. You don't prioritize anyone outside of their sort of... Very elitist. Yeah, I mean, literally that. And also, I mean, I think the fact that 56 of them

are facing allegations of sexual assault or harassment, I think says everything we need to know about how they respect people. Do you remember the politician? I think it's really interesting to know where things are going wrong if you ask about childcare costs. Do you remember the politician who was think it's really interesting to know where things are going wrong if you ask about childcare costs. Do you remember the politician who was caught watching porn in the Commons? Yeah, sadly, yes. So he was caught watching porn.

It was sort of laughed off. Oh, what a silly old guy. Oh, yeah, you know, like, oh, he made a mistake. Banter, banter. Oh, dear, bans, bans, bans. Stella Creasy brings her baby into Parliament. The baby is silent. She prioritises her family and her constituents at the same time. Not a peep out of that child.

Babies have now been banned from Parliament. I saw that. It's absolutely outrageous, isn't it? The furore over a woman who would dare to bring a breastfeeding, breastfed child into parliament versus the vance of somebody watching porn in parliament. The way those two situations played out, I think gives you some understanding of where things are right now. But don't worry, we are not going to just be building back better, we're going to be building back differently. And there is an army behind you. I saw a brilliant interview, by the way. It was actually someone on Instagram who sent it to me with the, is it prime minister or

president? I think she's prime minister of New Zealand, Jacinda Ardern. She was being interviewed on good old Lorraine's sofa, who everyone will know apart from Boris Johnson with his who's Lorraine quip. But she said that, you know, they have made Parliament in New Zealand more child friendly. They have playgrounds there. The Speaker at their House of Commons, I don't know if that's the right terminology that they use over there. So forgive me if that's not correct. But their Speaker actually holds babies for a lot of the female politicians while they're talking so

that they don't get distracted. And it was really interesting, a really interesting interview. But I've spoken a lot this week about the static we see and the fact babies are banned and for me i think the frustrating thing is lots of women say well i'm not allowed my child at work so why should she and that to me that's almost like saying just because it's shit it's shit for me so it should be shit for everyone but surely i mean number one we need more female mps especially now when we're looking at what's happening with abortion rights in america i i so hope we have more female mps that can protect our our rights not just reproductive rights but

you know our rights with child care with flexible working with everything but it's interesting isn't it that how are we meant to get more female mps if we keep making it so shit and hard for women? It's the dramatization of the situation as well. There's very few babies that will be in Parliament. They've made this into a huge issue when actually all it takes, we come back to flexibility, is probably case by case going, do you know what? She needs to come in, deliver her speech, and she's got a baby with her. If the baby cries, she's being briefed on having to sort of go out because we can't disturb proceedings.

It's that simple. It's not suddenly the House of Commons is going to become a crash. But what they're saying and what they haven't recognized is the maternity policy in Parliament is not in place yet. Okay, so you are asking these women, you are trying to have women to represent you, to represent me, to represent anybody listening to this podcast. And yet what you're saying is we don't have a maternity policy for you. You're not going to be secure in the way that maybe other companies are that you've fought for within the UK. But also, at the same time, we're not going to let you bring your baby into Parliament. So you're asking women in Parliament, women whose voices we need so desperately to simply make a choice between constituents and child. And Stella wasn't willing to give up on her constituents.

So she's being penalised for caring so deeply about her constituents that she was willing to put herself in a position that is stressful. It's not ideal. I'm not saying everybody bring their babies to parliament. I don't want to bring my baby to work. But if there is a moment where my child needs me, like I can't, I'm breastfeeding, or there's a biological need, or there is a situational, circumstantial need, have flexibility around that. And it's this blanket. No, no, we're done. You know what? Because what Boris Johnson is saying in that moment of banning babies in parliament is saying, yeah, we're really diverse and inclusive. But actually, do you know what? You can't sit with us, especially you. You happen to be a mother, but you really can't sit with us

because do you know what might happen if women got to the top at parliament? Things would change significantly. Of course, they don't want that. So any little chink in the armor we get that Stella is chipping away at gets sealed up instantly. So I agree with you. It's not ideal bringing babies to work. I'm not fighting for that because I don't really want to do that. But what I am fighting for and what you're fighting for and anyone should raise their voice up on is flexibility, autonomy, and saying individually to people, what do you need to do your job? That is it.

I just love how you talk and the points that you make and how you make them. I'm literally silently clapping, but it would be a really shit podcast if I was clapping as you talked. But no, you're so right. It's a lot of anger. No, it's good. You're a hacked-off mum. mum I love it I know we've been chatting for a long time but one thing I would I would really like to get your thoughts on because I know you wrote an article for the telegraph about it a long time ago in 2018 but it's sharing ting obviously as you all know I

share Alf left right and center on social media believe Believe it or not, I do actually, I am very mindful of the types of images I share of him. I've looked into safety, but I was speaking this week with Olivia Buckland. I think she's called Olivia Bowen now. God, I should know her surname, but she got married. I get confused. I still call my sister my surname. So she was saying how she feels really, really protective about sharing her newborn on social media. And she's been facing a backlash from her followers because they expect

her to show the face. And obviously, you started Mother Pucker as, for want of a better word, a sort of mum blogger. Has the way in which you've shared your daughters online changed? And what would be your advice to people who are worried about how much they share? Yeah. So I think like with anything, and I think you're very much on the same page as I am, I'm beyond judgment or shame. And I think I heard the term sharenting and I thought, God, that's the next stick to beat mothers with, isn't it? We've got breasts and bottle, you're a sharenter, you're not a share-enter. How much more shame can we put upon women? And so my first point on that is that what I do, it shouldn't impact what anyone else feels or does. I am not here to bring shame

upon anybody or judgment upon anyone who does what they feel is right for their family. My digital footprint, my children's digital footprint, oh my God, it's deep as anything. It is in the underbelly of the internet. You can find anything you want about me. And how do I feel about that? Do you know what? It was a brave new digital world that I stepped into. Have I adjusted how I do things? Yes. And that was for very personal reasons. So I had a situation which I've written about where at my book launch, a guy turned up who'd been following me and he knew both my daughter's names and he was like hovering by the pram. And it was nothing significant that happened, but I felt distinctly uncomfortable. And it was in that moment where I thought,

do you know what? I have given so much information. And I think it's not about whether you share it or not. It's actually the information you give out. And that was my line in the sand. It might be different for other people. I'm not here to shame the, for example, the postnatally depressed mother who is putting photos up of her newborn and going, this is what I've achieved today. This is what makes me proud. Don't feel someone else's choices should impact yours. But if you have a profile, then like you have said, you do need to be aware of what information you give out. I never have posted anything that could potentially come back to haunt my children. But one thing that is

important to note is that there's, again, a lot of judgment out there. Oh, you know, you shouldn't share photos of your children. You should do this. You shouldn't do that. There was an amazing discussion on the radio a couple of years ago where a woman came on and said, I think it's disgusting. Anybody sharing photos of their children online is awful. You're terrible people. You're leading paedophiles to your front door. You know, like the very extreme response. And within five minutes of her being on air, somebody had found her digital footprint, had tweeted the radio show and said, by the way, I found all this on you. She said, but I haven't ever shared any photos. It doesn't matter.

If you use apps, you can get photos off those apps. No one is safe. So you think it's people sharing things. No, the point that was made on that radio show was if you give someone a reason to try and tear you down, they will be able to do that regardless of whether you shared a photo of Elf or not, regardless of whether I shared photos of my children or not. Your digital footprint goes beyond what's shared on Instagram. So this is not to say it's right or wrong. It's just to say you can't pompously sit on your non-sharenting pedestal and go, you're all terrible parents,

because people can find you. They can find anything. Our footprints are bigger than any of us realize. We are being followed. This lady that you talk about, I think it might be the same person. It was relatively recently and she came out shaming people that share their kids online. And I remember thinking a massive fuck you because I was a lockdown mom and I didn't meet any, I didn't know any other moms. My sister was three months behind me. I loved sharing online because it's how I met my community and all of the highs and lows, whether that was like the physical changes or breastfeeding. I wouldn't have, like, what do they want us to do? Just like sit in silence and be miserable. I was like, but what I will say is now that Alf is a little bit older, he is starting to get recognized more than me, actually.

Normally people will say to me, oh, I thought it was you. I recognized Alfie. And I do find that a bit weird. So maybe now he's getting a bit older and doesn't just look like any other baby. It will get to a point where I maybe start hiding his face. But it's really interesting because like you said, there's no right or wrong. Well, you just adjust. And I got to know you, I would say. We became friends through both of, you just adjust. And I got to know you,

I would say. We became friends through both of us sharing. I wouldn't have got to know you. And you're part of, and I have a group of women who support each other, you know, back to those old age women's circles. So for all the demonization of social media, I'm not here to do that. I think the community that you explain, the reason we're having this conversation, the reason people are listening to this podcast, the clip I shared with you last week is the most viewed clip I've ever had on a podcast because you spoke so beautifully, so eloquently about the distortion of motherhood in a way that no one else has. about the distortion of motherhood in a way that no one else has.

And what you did in that moment helped so many other women who had been praised for their looks, praised for losing the baby weight, and yet had had a prolapse, had suffered postnatal depression, had a divorce looming over them, were going through the menopause, all kinds of things. looming over them, we're going through the menopause, all kinds of things. And I wanted to, from a personal side, say, you are very much part of that women's circle for me. And I wouldn't have found you if it wasn't for your sharing. So I'm here to have that balance and go, can we not demonize something that gives women access to other women? When historically, all we had was Vogue magazine saying, by the way, here's the latest catwalk looks.

Mother and Baby magazine going, well, here's the latest bugaboo. What about the bit in between? The prolapses, the depression, the flexible working, the elation, the the joy at the same time as the crushing lows and the pain that's what was missing and that's what I have found in that circle online following people like you thank you and by the way for anyone who wants to listen to the podcast episode I did with Anna it's on her podcast I team mother pucker and interesting that you mentioned prolapse because I had a question through this week from Anna M who got in touch on the email which is askmumsthewordpod at gmail.com and she just says hey Ash loving your podcast so far I'm a new mum and I found out to my horror that I have a pelvic organ prolapse after a long labor followed by pushing myself too hard in the weeks after

birth you mentioned prolapse on ep2 but please can you consider having a pelvic floor physio or gyno to talk about this condition and how you have managed your own i'm currently reading and googling and i've terrified myself worrying whether i will ever feel normal down there again i wish i'd known about it beforehand i've told a few friends but yet to meet anyone else who's dealt with it so first of all anna definitely listen to the podcast episode i did but say no more it's a perfect topic to talk about. So I'm going to go on the hunt, maybe even my own pelvic health physio martyr will come on. And Anna, I would speak to you for so much longer, but you literally have laws to go and change.

Well, if we could DJ and legislate together at the same time with both our children there that would be the utopia for me honestly I've loved it and I know that it's such an interesting episode for so many other people as well so thank you I love chatting oh lovely to chat to you love you Ashley and thanks to all of you guys I love you and thank I love all of you guys too so thank you so much for listening to Ashley James mum's the, the parenting podcast. Make sure to hit the subscribe and follow button so you never miss an episode. I always feel like such a YouTuber when I say this. If you're listening on Apple Podcasts, leave a review.

Obviously five-star ratings help others to find us. And if you think anyone, by the way, might benefit from listening to this episode, maybe they are in the childcare, flexible working struggle, then let them know, help us reach more people. And I'll be back with another episode, same time, same place next week.

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