Mum's The Word! The Parenting Podcast - Birth Trauma and Requesting a Birth Debrief

Episode Date: July 31, 2022

Ashley chats about her experience requesting a birth debrief and the steps you can take to get your own, as well as touching on her birth trauma and how this has affected her. We answer your questions, on battling loneliness, finding your tribe and whether parenting releationships can be equal.Get in touch with your experiences, questions and topic suggestions by emailing [e-mail]---------A Create Podcast Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Well hello it's me Ashley James on Mums the Word and it is just me today because in true mum fashion my lovely guests who I still want to get on by the way have been struck down with Covid so obviously they now have no childcare so I have been there and I know how stressful it is. I feel like that was for me the big realization of how permanent parenthood is when you're sick and your child is sick and you're like, wait But for today, it's actually worked out quite well because I feel like I have so much to talk to you about. I think I briefly touched on it last week. It was too brief and I've had so many messages about it. I don't think I need to put a trigger warning on today. I'm going to be talking about my birth debrief and touching on birth trauma. my birth debrief and touching on birth trauma. But just to reassure you, I'm not going to go into any graphic details or anything about my birth. It's more just how to get birth debriefs

and my own experience with that. So yeah, I don't think I need a trigger warning, but just as a sort of definition, if you like, of birth trauma. but just as a sort of definition, if you like, of birth trauma. I didn't think that I qualified as someone who would have birth trauma. And it was only a few weeks ago that I went to go see a private pelvic health physio. She's called Marta and she treated me for pelvic girdle pain in my pregnancy. She diagnosed me with PTSD because who knew that apparently women hold all their stress in their pelvic area. So without going really graphic, your pelvic floor muscles, or at least my pelvic floor muscles, because of the trauma that I experienced, they all tightened up,

which is why I've been experiencing pain, which to be honest, is actually a little bit of a relief because I thought I was experiencing pain because of being stitched up after my birth. And it's not that. It's only trauma, obviously. I'm joking. It's not great, but it's very treatable. And I'm pleased to know that it's not due to kind of scar tissue or anything that it might be. So I feel like I've had a real breakthrough over the last few weeks. Obviously, Alf is 18 and a half months now, which just seems absolutely mad. I feel like it's kind of taken me this long to consider myself as kind of still suffering from birth trauma and actually going to do something about it. see really fortunately both Alf is okay and healthy and I was alive and healthy and recovering but the the actual definition of a traumatic birth is if you feel upset or distressed by what happened when you were giving birth so with that mind, obviously it doesn't matter on the outcome. Obviously you can

be so grateful and appreciative that you have your baby happy and healthy, but you can still experience a level of trauma for what you went through. So I thought I would explain, you know, what the process is in requesting both your birth notes and a birth debrief, just because I've had so many questions since I touched on it last week. So my reasons for deciding to do something about it was obviously, as you know, I've been debating, would I have a second child or not? If I can, would I be able to put myself through childbirth again? And if I did, what would be, you know, what kind of childbirth would I want to try and have? And also, can I trust that I will be given the birth that I want in terms of pain relief, because that was the big

thing that happened with me. You know, I wasn't provided any pain relief. So with that in mind, that's what made me sort of think, okay, I really need to do something. And as well as the sort of like physical pain that I'm still under, which of course has a total impact on intimacy and I guess your confidence, because it's quite hard to feel body confident let's say when you feel like your body doesn't work you know I feel like the postnatal journey is so annoyingly as I touch on all the time it's kind of like whittled down to baby weight isn't it like whether or not you look like you've had a baby or not, which is actually so repulsive when you think about everything that we go through physically,

mentally and emotionally. You know, there's a real lack of understanding about what you can experience physically, regardless of how you look on the other side of childbirth. So what I decided to do is I wrote to the PALS department of the hospital I gave birth in. So PALS is the complaints department. And I just put a really polite email saying something along the lines of, hi, I gave birth on the 9th of January 2021. And I would like to understand what happened during my birth as I still experience pain and I'm also quite traumatized. And I don't know if I have, I'm pretty sure I'll have told you guys, but I was actually stitched up incorrectly. So because I had a third degree tear, apparently that is meant to be stitched up by a surgeon or a doctor. But in my case,

it was stitched up by the midwife just because it was missed. So it basically meant that I tore from the front to the back, but only the front was stitched up, if that makes sense. So obviously, that has sort of consequences, physical consequences. I mentioned that I experienced, although thankfully, not as much now that I experienced although thankfully not as much now that I've been working on my pelvic floor um but I experienced fecal incontinence which is actually quite a common symptom if that childbirth recovery but obviously it's problematic if it if it continues so I just said I would love to understand what happened in my birth and why I wasn't offered pain relief. So I asked for an epidural for ages. I was told that I needed to do a physical check.

So despite it being very painful, I did the physical checks. I was told that's what they needed to do in order to give me an epidural. And obviously the epidural didn't come. what they needed to do in order to give me an epidural. And obviously the epidural didn't come. So that was the PALS and complaints department. And then I had a call a few days later with somebody from women's services who were, by the way, lovely. And I need to stress this, this whole process that I've been under, everybody who I've spoken to has been so compassionate and so kind. And there's been no judgment at all over the fact that, you know, what am I complaining about? Because Alfie's here and healthy and et cetera, et cetera. So please, if you are, if you do kind of have questions and you do feel upset in any way about what happened when you gave birth. Please don't feel like anyone is

judging you. And please also know that this is a completely free service on the NHS. You're obviously allowed to find out what happened. So the lady who called me just wanted to kind of understand what I wanted to do. And she was like, I'm so sorry. I'm so sorry. That was your experience. It shouldn't be like that. And she said, I will organize a virtual birth debrief with the, and I can never say this word, the obstetric, I think that's right, whether the obstetric, you're all going to probably correct me, but the obstetric consultant. obstetric, you're all going to probably correct me, but the obstetric consultant. And then she said, would you like me to close the complaint with PALS? To which I said, no,

not yet. Because obviously I don't know yet whether there is valid reason for me to complain officially. So I said, no, keep it open, but I'm excited for the birth debrief. And what you can also do alongside getting a birth debrief is request your birth notes. So that would mean that you have a physical copy of all of the notes that were taken and you can select the date. So for me, it was from my birth to the two weeks after when I got signed off by the midwife. So in order to get your birth notes, you have to fill out, or at least I did for the hospital I gave birth in, a subject access request form. So this is a form that you would fill out to request notes of your own, your child's, a family member who died, whatever it is, it's the official form that you fill out in order to request notes. And that was pretty easy. I sent it off and I was told it would take a month to get

them. But yesterday in the post, I actually did receive a big brown envelope and it turns out they are my birth notes. Although I haven't actually opened them yet, just because I feel I'm not quite ready to see what they say. And I've decided to go through them with somebody from outside the NHS. So this is a paid service, someone who is called a birth debrief facilitator. So many people actually recommended her, like you guys, people on Instagram, Mixed Up Motherhood. So actually, she's agreed to come on the podcast. I did say, can we go through my birth notes on the podcast? And she was like, well, no, because it's confidentiality. And obviously, there'll be lots on there, which is fair. But we are going to try

and do a episode in the future where she will explain exactly what she does and how she does it and how it can be helpful. So that's really exciting. I am paying, by the way, so that's not an exchange. I'm not saying if you do my podcast, will you do it for free? I'm paying. It's a service. It's 300 pounds. So obviously it's not cheap.

But after having my birth debrief with the NHS, I feel like I would like somebody completely independent to go through them because, and this is what I'll get onto. So I had my birth debrief last Thursday, I think it was. And I won't lie, it was a bit more upsetting than I envisioned. So because I wasn't offered pain relief for a very long time, I had kind of got in my head that it was probably because it was lockdown and they didn't have enough staff. So they didn't have anyone to administer the anesthetic because I was in the birthing suite and obviously you have to go to the labor suite if you want an epidural. So I kind of had rationalized it. And my feedback was going to be, I wish that you could just have been straight up

like pragmatic about it, being like, sorry, you can't have an epidural because we don't have the staff or it's really busy on the ward right now with emergencies or whatever it would be. And then at least, you know, you're treated like an adult and you can cope with the answer. But with mine, it just kept saying, no, not yet. No, not yet. No, not yet. No, not yet. And then, you know, 18 hours later, the baby was here and it was a long old time of feeling like I was in complete pain. But what happened on the birth debrief call was, again, she asked me to explain what happened in my birth in my own words. And then again, she was really lovely, really compassionate, really understanding. And then she said, I'm actually really surprised to hear it from your side because the notes and bear in mind she wasn't part of the

midwife team she said the notes say something very different the notes say that you were happy with um water water by the way water you would be happy with water so basically in the birthing suite amazingly there was a birthing pool which, which obviously I feel really fortunate for. I know not every birthing suite has a pool. And so when I was in loads of pain, they kept suggesting, why don't you go in the birthing pool for a bit? So I did. And then I'd go back to the bouncing ball or to the bed. And so I'd sent Tommy out, I want to say at least five times asking for pain relief because I'd done you know an antenatal class and I'd done hypnobirthing and I felt very in control of knowing all the pain relief options

and knowing what my sort of rights were and I didn't know that maybe despite doing all of that things wouldn't come so anyway I actually got really upset on the phone when she said that because I was like I just don't understand how they could write that I was coping because for me, and this is a big thing, right? Pain is so subjective. Like, you know, we can brag about having a high pain threshold or, you know, whatever it is but ultimately whether you have a high pain threshold or a low pain threshold pain is something that you feel and pain relief is something that is there to take away that pain but I have a really high pain threshold and actually I wasn't afraid in the slightest about my birth I kept comparing it for anyone that followed me back then. I kept comparing it to sort of running a marathon. That's what I thought it would be like. I've ran two marathons

and I know what it takes to have that mental willpower to keep going and to push your body through pain. So I was like, I'll be fine. I've done it before with marathons. I know, you know, I'm really strong minded. I've got high pain threshold. I'll be absolutely fine. I've done it before with marathons. I know, you know, I'm really strong minded. I've got high pain threshold. I'll be absolutely fine. Um, so I said to her, like, you know, despite having a high pain threshold, it is a bit upsetting that I say I'm in pain and somebody else would say that I'm fine or that I'm not in pain because, you know, regardless of whether you're a woman or a man or whatever it is, like, like I said, pain is subjective. If you're in pain, you know, regardless of whether you're a woman or a man or whatever it is, like I said, pain is subjective. If you're in pain, you're in pain, right? And can you imagine if I went into the hospital for an operation or a tooth extraction and they were like, right, Ashley, we're going to put you under general anesthetic now.

And I was like, no, do you know what? I am fine. I will be fine. I have a high pain threshold and I would like to not do it under general anesthetic. I want to be awake. They wouldn't be like, wow, you're so brave. What a hero. They'd be like, well, no, that would be unethical and completely insane. You're a madman, a mad woman. We have to do it under general anesthetic, right? So why is it with childbirth that we're almost like well we're not given a badge over a medal that's the point isn't it like you know I don't know why we have it in our heads

to kind of do it without pain relief or people praise you if you say you do it that pain relief and even when I say yeah I you know I gave birth to Alf and he was 9.5 pounds and they say oh did you have an epidural and I say no they're like wow you're amazing and I'm like no no I'm not amazing I would have been amazing it would have been amazing if I had an epidural because I wanted one um so I really really believe that we should empower people to have the birth that is most comfortable for them and also the birth that they want you know fair enough if people want to do it without pain relief like whatever you want but I don't like the idea that you're any braver for having pain relief or not having pain relief because like my earlier analogy about you know having an operation people would think that you are mad so we kind of left it there like to be honest

there wasn't much else to discuss luckily Luckily, because I was stitched up incorrectly, I actually went for an outpatient appointment with the NHS gynecology team and they did a scan and basically they have proof that I was stitched up incorrectly. So like I said, basically they didn't stitch all the way to the back. So as much as I hate this word, my sphincter didn't get it at all, but it wasn't stitched correctly. So she could see that and obviously was very apologetic. And then she asked if I would be happy for her to follow up with the midwife team. So they might contact me, they might not, but at least it means that

going forward, they have that feedback so that hopefully going forward, whether it's me or the next woman who gives birth, the care will hopefully improve. And that was the big thing that she said to me. She was like, never never ever feel bad about doing these birth debriefs she was like it is so important because that's how we can implement change that is how we can go to the government and say you know look how many women have experienced birth trauma like everything you know we need to change the system so I suppose this is why I wanted to share it with you because if you are listening and you feel like maybe you've been considering getting a birth debrief maybe you didn't even know it was an option maybe you're still experiencing pain

and whatever it is I hope to empower you guys to well go through the same procedure that I did and have that birth debrief and request your birth notes. Like I said, it's totally free. And then hopefully you get to have a sense of closure. And this is why I'm really excited about the independent birth debrief facilitator because she reads your notes with you but then she also helps you to get closure from that and I think that is really important for me especially well a just to move forward with my life and not feel like I have this sort of like trauma but also if I did decide to have another baby then you know I feel equipped to go into it all again without without feeling stressed and worried.

So I hope that's useful. Welcome to Paranormal Activity with me, Yvette Fielding. A brand new podcast bringing together people's real ghost, extraterrestrial and paranormal stories, as well as getting some inside details from those who study the supernatural. I'll be listening through your paranormal stories every week and try to understand them, as well as chatting about my own encounters with an occasional paranormal investigator too. You can find us wherever you get your podcasts from, including Apple Podcasts, Spotify and Acast. Just search for Paranormal Activity with Yvette Fielding.

But I also thought I would just answer lots of your questions around some other things, kind of have like a quick catch up because there's been so, so many questions and some of them I've read anonymously just in case your partners or you didn't want me to read out your names. But the first one is, how do you navigate loneliness as a new mom? I feel like I'm really grieving my old life and freedom. And I thought this was such a good question because this is honestly exactly what I'm going through at the moment. And funnily enough, I have just taken on a life coach, an amazing lady called Michelle Zelle. So years ago when I was single, I actually went to a talk

about love addiction and bad relationships and why you keep settling for less than you deserve. you know, bad like relationships and why you keep settling for less than you deserve. And it was hosted by Michelle Zelle and she was honestly amazing. And I don't know why, but in my head, I was like, I really need to speak to Michelle Zelle. And so we had like a quick catch up call and I explained to her how I was feeling. And I basically said that I feel like since motherhood, and I don't know if it's because of birth trauma or whatever it is, I was like, I just feel like I'm short-circuiting, like I'm not processing my emotions very well. I feel like I'm stressed all the time and I really miss my old life. And even though I'm trying to tell myself like, you should be grateful, you should be grateful,

I still feel like I miss the past. And she she said you're experiencing grief so it's interesting that um the lady who asked asked this question said grieving your old life so Michelle who by the way is also a mum she had children very very young and she said it's very normal to experience grief because of course your life completely changes. And so she is going to basically try and help me process that grief because she said what a lot of us do, which is exactly what I was doing was like, I should be grateful. You know, like so many of my friends are trying to have babies and are on a really difficult journey. And I had health and I should be grateful and I should be blessed. And, you know, and that doesn't help you process grief.

It doesn't help you stop missing your old life. So I've only just started working with her, actually. And she said, like, for the first few weeks, it's actually about just letting myself feel sad. She was like, it's OK, like life has changed and, you know, you can't travel and you can't do this. And she was like, but also just to reassure you, you can do that again. You know, it's only, they're only little for such a short amount of time. But she said, don't feel like you have to pretend it's all lovely, like at least not to yourself.

You know, you can miss your life, but you also know that it's almost not forever. And she said, the important thing is learning to deal with the grief and feeling the sadness so that then you can move on. So you don't feel like you've got one foot in the past, which to me has been really helpful. And she sent me homework, which I'll pass on to you guys. I've still not seen it, I really need to watch the Pink documentary. she said that um pink obviously became a mom and I think went through a lot of these feelings and then went on to do obviously I mean she's pink she went on to do amazing things and went back to touring and she said it's like a very inspiring documentary which I've not seen yet so maybe we can watch it together and let me know if you found it helpful or not. So how do I navigate the loneliness as a new mom? I will say that now

Alpha is 18 months. I do feel like I have a lot of my like friendships back. Not that they ever left. Well, some did. Some really did leave. But you know, that feeling, I remember around six months and onwards, I was trying to juggle work and I was trying to juggle the kind of like, well, motherhood, not kind of, I was trying to juggle a baby, the lack of sleep, which I think had such a huge impact looking back. And I remember thinking, I miss my friends so much, but I don't have time to talk to them. And they would message me and ask how I was. And I didn't reply for like weeks and weeks and weeks. But then I missed them at the same time. And I just felt like I didn't have time to do it all.

And I think it does get easier. I still don't have a ton of like mum friends necessarily in my area, but I do have one who I met. Actually, we met in, there's like a little duck pond near me. And I met her last summer met in, there's like a little duck pond near me and I met her last summer in the duck pond. But then she actually reached out on Insta and was like, oh, I'm going through a bit of a lonely stage too. And I met you in the summer and I remembered, and now she's, you know, someone that I like to hang out with and that has made a difference. So I think it's

just knowing that there are really lonely times, but you find a tribe even if it's one person like my tribe is a very small tribe of people going through it um and b you get more independence back you know like at whatever point that is so and that's such a long-winded thing but i feel like it's a sentiment that i think so many of us experience as new mums and maybe don't talk about because we feel like it's complaining or we should be grateful or appreciative or anything like that. And then I feel like another overriding experience that so many people feel, and this is from Chelsea. She said, how can I beat mum guilt? I work full time and I love my job, but no one I talk to is full time, so then I feel guilty. I feel like mum guilt in general is weird, isn't it? Because I don't think

there's dad guilt because they are almost just allowed to get on with their life in the way they see fit. But I feel like for mums, and obviously this is major generalization, so forgive me for that, but I feel like as mums in general in society, we're kind of expected to do it all. We're expected to be the perfect attentive mum, but then we're expected to go back to work as if we don't have children if we do go back to work. And we're kind of in this

like totally impossible standard and feeling judgment from all sides I think judgment is a huge thing but a lot of the time the judgment comes from us and just to like be specific on working full-time I work full-time and I love my job and actually I don't feel any guilt about that at all because I know, because I tried to not go full time around six months onwards, I am a happier mom, a happier person when I am working and when I get that time to focus on what I want to focus on, which means that the times that I get with Alf in the morning and the evenings and the weekends, I am a really, really good mom because I am, you know, I'm not, my head's not in two spaces. So I feel like whatever it is that you feel guilty about, just don't. And I know that's easier to say, but it's like, I feel like we,

A, we have so many like negative beliefs about motherhood or we judge ourselves or we hang out with people that judge us. But I feel like that says a lot more about them than us. And Betty actually messaging, she feels judged by her mother-in-law for feeding her baby pouches. And what do I think of pouches? And like, I remember getting judgment about pouches when I put them up on Instagram and I remember looking at them I think they were like Ella's Kitchen or Babies and I was like they are literally they have no badness in them they like they look fine to me I generally don't understand the problem and like fair enough I'm sure it is better to cook

a healthy home-cooked meal three times a day but like for me and my life that's not realistic and if pouches feed the baby and it allows you to I don't know have a bath or finish the job that you need to do or even if you just don't like cooking like who cares do you know what I mean like and I feel like I've been so lucky to have an amazing mother-in-law, but I hear it all the time, whether it's like mother-in-law's not letting their daughter-in-law's breastfeed in the house or whatever it is. And I would just be really clear about your boundaries. And also, even if you don't say anything to them, just be like, do you know what? Pouches work for me because, and list why they work for you. They're healthy, quick, and it allows me to, whether it's play with my baby or get my work done or sit on

my phone for five minutes, whatever it is. So then when people say that, just say, interesting, you feel that way. Because ultimately we're never going to keep everyone happy. And also like what I do with that off, you might not do with your kid, but I wouldn't judge you for it, whether that's, you know, sleeping or feeding or screen time. You know, I had it yesterday. We went to go meet one of Tommy's friends who's just had a baby and they've got a toddler. And we always put Alf's iPad on when we're eating,

when we're out and about, just because it means that he's distracted. So we actually get to eat our food. And their toddler came to watch the screen and they were like oh no no no he's not allowed screen time and you know get away from the screen you're not allowed screen time so i could have felt judged but i don't because i that works for them and this works for us so i feel like we just need to try and stop feeling guilty and try and trust our intuition and trust what we do is right and be open to if people do things another way not taking it personally because everyone's allowed to do things differently so

I hope that's helpful but the last question I will answer and I won't say your name just in case even though I'm sure that there's lots of people with this name and it probably refers to so many people but I will keep anonymous. And she said that she is nine weeks postpartum and everything her husband does is annoying her. And so she said to me, how can I reconnect with him? I actually can't think of anything worse than having sex right now. Is this normal? So firstly, I say um Tommy and I did a podcast when Alf was 12 months so if you scroll all the way back to January there's an episode with Tommy and I where we spoke pretty openly about the first year um but then in terms of like what

he does that annoys you I guess it's like questioning to yourself whether it's like rational or irrational you know if it's like he breathes next to me then obviously that would be quite an irrational thing and you can like think like okay probably best not communicate that with him I'm obviously going through something but I do think communication is such an important thing that I feel like no matter how long you've been together obviously Tommy and I were in a really new relationship but I speak to people who've been together for like 10 years and then had children and they go through the same stuff that Tommy and I go through I feel like when you become parents it's almost like navigating an entirely new relationship and I suppose it's an element of missing that old relationship as well so I think like what does he do that annoys you is it that he expects not to

change nappies or is it that he thinks he it's your job to get up at night and not his or that you're the one that's having to cook and look after the baby like you know they're quite they're quite um rational things to be annoyed about I would say and i guess it's it goes back to that thing of like you know the expectation tends to all be on the woman whereas like the men get praised for doing like the basics which isn't to say that you know tommy's an amazing dad and he is as much as i hate the term hands on but i i don't know if relationships or parenting can be equal because we live in a society that makes it really hard for it to be equal. Because Tommy could walk down the street with Alf and everyone would like swoon and be like, oh, so nice that he takes him out.

Whereas I'd walk down the street and everyone would tut at me because they're like, oh, another mum with a baby. Get out the way of my pavement. You know, like there's such a different attitude and it is what it is. But obviously the important thing is working out for you to what, what works and what's realistic. Like, you know, Tommy and I pretty much try and do everything equally where we can. But obviously when I was breastfeeding, that didn't happen. Therefore Tommy did the cooking because I would be sat with a baby tied to my boob. You know, he normally puts off to sleep now just because it's easier for him.

We still rock him to sleep and he's getting a little bit big for me. We probably need to switch that up at some point. But Tommy does that and I will tidy the playroom and like make dinner or deliver whatever we're doing for dinner that night. So, but it took time and communication to get there. And then in terms of like how to reconnect,

I think it's just like really important to say for so many of us like you don't have to have sex to be connected and to be intimate and I think this is a really important thing because I think there is this sort of like archaic expectation that you know I like I don't know if it came from films or comments from the older generations but it's like you know almost like if you don't put out then your husband will leave you and that's such rubbish like we we are recovering from childbirth and we're also probably completely sleep deprived obviously there's lots of very lucky people whose babies sleep from really early on um but of course you don't want to have sex. Do you know what I mean? Like why you probably

feel like so unsexy, like nothing made me feel unsexy, unsexier than having leaking boobs, giant nipples, especially when I was pumping as well. Um, obviously I was like terrified that the stitches hadn't healed. Like nothing screams sexiness about that. Nothing was like, do you know what? I would love to have sex. And I remember bringing it up with Tommy and he was like, do you not think I'm scared of hurting you as well? He was like, I'm not like some kind of like caveman who's like,

you must have sex with me. He was like, I am like worried too. And then it was like kind of like pressure off sort of thing. It's like, oh, you know, we do it when we want. But intimacy can be, I don't know, like remembering to hold hands or trying to pay them a compliment or, you know, I think it's like really simple things that help you reconnect. And I mean, Alf never, ever had a bedtime until he was 12 months old so we realized we needed to change that because it was starting to affect us whereas at the beginning

we didn't really have a routine because it meant that we could go out in the evenings together and you know I think if you have people that can look after them even for like an hour we didn't but obviously it was locked down but like whatever you can do like reconnecting could be like holding hands giving each other a compliment remembering to give each other a kiss like it doesn't have to be sex and I I think um Marta my pelvic health physio said something to me like something like 80% of women don't have sex in the first year and she was like honestly you'd be surprised how common it is but nobody wants to talk about it because obviously there's so much like shame and stigma and taboo and everybody wants to like feel like they're the perfect girlfriend and the perfect mom or wife or whatever it is. So I would say like, just please don't worry.

And like sex doesn't have to mean everything. So I feel like I have talked and talked and talked. Who even needs a guess hey um I do have a voice note I wanted to share um from Pip on the theme of having a second child I know that that's something that um I keep touching on and finding out what people's thoughts and opinions are so I wanted to share that hey Ash it's Pip anyway I just listened to the podcast where you discussed whether it's worth having another little sproglet and I just wanted to say that I felt completely the same and we were sort of forced into the decision because I was told to go on HRT and was like okay it's now or never

thinking really it was impossible uh we'd never be able to have another one anyway so you know let's just what the heck but admittedly all along we were pretty much kind of one and done considering how hard we'd found that first year and the extreme sleep deprivation the anxiety the strain on the relationship that sort of life-changing feeling that you'll never ever be able to go for coffee again on your own um and then mentally kind of got pregnant within about sort of three months of trying second time around which was like shit that happened and as amazing as it is we were sort of freaking out because we really just didn't expect it to happen, even though we were trying and even though that's sort of what was meant to happen because it took so long the first time around

and we were sort of told we couldn't even have one, that it was just, yeah, crazy. So I sort of then started really dreading coming along, as awful as that sounds, and the whole way along I had zero excitement about it. Went to see a therapist to talk about how little I was looking forward to it and the fact I had gender disappointment on top of that which again I feel super awful about and blah blah blah and then when he came and I saw just how absolutely

in love my eldest he was with him and how his face just lit up and and also what they're like together now I was like okay this makes sense like I could really see why people do it and yes it was shite in the first few months and my anxiety went sky high and I was like how the effect do you keep two alive um this is madness but what I did was sort of made in quotation marks my husband give up work this time around and be a stay-at-home dad and actually he loves it and he's got way less anxiety than me about sort of everyday parenthood he's more of a disciplinarian and because I'm a total pushover and basically can't bear them crying so they'd likely become spoiled little brats in my care. And basically, I now live the dream.

So I was thinking, you know, with how successful you are, is maybe that an option for you? Could you take, I don't know, three months off, say, and then roll reverse and have your partner stay at home? Maybe it's worth a thought. Anyway, I just thought it's worth a shot and um I thought I would just send you a voice note because it's a hell of a lot easier than emailing and because I also emailed you like two weeks ago going hey do you want to do a podcast about gender disappointment because I really struggle with it and still struggle with it now and blah blah blah blah blah and um yeah so I didn't want to send yet another email going so I just sound like

a total mentalist um so I do apologize Pip please don't stop getting in touch by the way because I love hearing from you and I actually think it's really interesting I would love maybe that would be a good podcast episode to do one with someone who was a stay-at-home dad and you know how what their work said you know do you get that much paternity leave um it would be really interesting because I think in Norway that's the norm that you split maternity leave and paternity leave so it's definitely really interesting um and gender disappointment I think it's a really good topic to do especially because for whatever reason it does feel quite taboo doesn't it um and it's definitely something I hard relate

to even though now obviously I'm super happy with Alf um I love love the idea of having a girl and I don't know how I would feel to if I did have another one I know it would be one more and done then um yeah I wonder how I would feel even though I know that you know I love Alf so much and don't resent his gender I loved today's little chit chat even though it was only me so I hope you found it all interesting and as always thank you so much for listening to Mums the World Parenting Podcast. Don't forget to hit subscribe or follow button if you are enjoying it that way you never miss an episode. If anything resonated with you today or even like if you want me to cover a certain topic then I love hearing from you you can send a voice message for free like Pip did you can do it

anonymously if you want as well which is 075 999 27537 or you can email at askmumsthewordpod at gmail.com and actually you can leave a review on the Apple podcast too if you listen on Apple and they're really easy to see there and I'll be be back with another episode, same time, same place next week. Bye for now. On each step with Peloton from their pop runs to walk and talks. You define what it means to be a runner. Whatever your level, embrace it. Journey starts when you say so.

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