Mum's The Word! The Parenting Podcast - Cherry Healey

Episode Date: February 7, 2022

Today Ashley is joined by television presenter, writer and documentary maker Cherry Healey! They're chatting about single mothers, the perception of motherhood, surprise pregnancies, piles and creating Deliveroo for mums! Frozen lasagne anyone?If you want to ask Ashley a question, get in touch at [e-mail]---A Create Podcast Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

I am so excited about today's guest she is a broadcast presenter known for inside the factory on BBC she's done loads of documentaries one of my favorites being 10 years younger on channel 5 and you also she also helps women harness and hone their own power with her manifesting course and arguably her most important role is that she is the mother of two, two Coco and Edward Allen. And one thing that I'm, well, I need to say who you are first. It's Cherry Healy. I get so excited to talk to you. I forget to say your name. That's fine. Everything else is more important. And I've got three cats.'s me and in a nutshell that's it done boom I'm really well three cats we've got a full house it feels really good I've turned 41 last year well December and it feels like I've really put my roots down

which is a lovely feeling actually I've always been a bit of a free spirit and very independent but yeah hearing you say all of that is really interesting it's interesting when someone tells you back your life but it feels good I'm really yeah I feel settled do you know what it's so interesting because I thought I fully expected to be childless by choice and also I was single until I was 32 and I did loads of research into this sort of until I was 32. And I did loads of research into this sort of expectation or pressure or idea that you're left on the shelf if you haven't found someone by your late twenties. And if you were, if you reached the age of 23 in France and you weren't married, you were dubbed a spinster or a Catherine and this all goes back obviously to biologically, we were made to be baby makers and do you know what there's

all this really interesting research that I don't actually have now about the outdated statistics so we say to women you know you'll struggle to get pregnant in your 30s let's say but apparently actually I do have the statistic the source of this data is on French birth between the years 2670 to 1830. So antibiotics, electricity and fertility treatments were, yes, to be invented. But yet we still have this sort of baby panic and we still have this notion that we are going to be left on the shelf. And I've had conversations with my friends. And to be honest, I felt like this at moments of my singledom, even though I was loving my life and I actually didn't feel I was lacking at all for not having a boyfriend. But when I would like date these assholes, I remember thinking, should I just settle? I'm getting older now. Maybe I should just settle for

a nice guy. And don't get me wrong, nice guys are great, but you have to be attracted to them. So I was thinking, I'll just pick anyone because, and then I had to like stop myself and also really question, like, why do I feel the need to be saved? Why do I feel the need to be saved? Like I'm independent, I'm earning money. Unlike women before the 1970s,

I can buy a house if I have the money. I can open a bank account. All of the reasons that we used to need to settle down. And social shame is actually something that I really want to get onto. Oh, social shame. What do you mean by social shame? What area? I mean, for a woman, which one do you want to pick, Ashley?

I know. So one of the reasons I'm so excited to talk to you, and actually it's so timely because this weekend I spent with my friend Vicky, who's been on my podcast before. She chose to adopt on her own. She just turned 40. It was a really long process and she is a single parent. proud of myself, but I opened the Daily Mail app and there was a story about Lauren Goodger getting pregnant. Not someone I know. I think I have met her a few times and she's actually a really lovely girl, but she has just announced that she's pregnant with her second child and her partner, who is the baby daddy and the baby daddy of the new baby, cheated on her two weeks ago. And I was just like I'm I'm really interested because I find myself judging women a lot and then stopping myself and thinking why am I judging so I did what you should never do and I looked in the Daily Mail comments out of curiosity

and not one comment was there any sympathy towards her but it was all this whole shame around the fact that she will be a single mum and I thought why like single women single mothers or single fathers they are superheroes and why do we focus the shame on the women who stay to raise the children such an important question such an important point so I got divorced about nine years ago. No woman gets divorced without giving a pretty bloody good long thing. I knew that it was going to upset the apple cart, I knew it was going to upset family, I knew it was going to upset friends. It took me five years to make the decision. And when I say five years, I mean, the last two years, obsessively thinking about it I'd

be in a yoga class and everyone would be like all peaceful and I'd be thinking can I leave should I leave I really need to leave I can't leave you mustn't leave I must leave I can't have this life you mustn't leave a manic brain like I've never experienced you were a mum at this point I was a mum I knew the relationship wasn't right for him and it wasn't right for me there wasn't any disarray there wasn't crazy arguing there was just no passion we weren't it wasn't right for me there wasn't any disarray there wasn't crazy arguing there was just no passion we weren't it wasn't right for either of us honestly i don't want to speak to him for him but for me it definitely wasn't the future that i want that i wanted but after a long long time of weighing it up i knew i had to i knew i couldn't also i couldn't live with that kind of dialogue

in my brain so i we got a divorce. It was incredibly heartbreaking. It was incredibly difficult emotionally, spiritually, logistically. Now, he's an amazing dad. He's a great dad. I'm so lucky he's a divine person. I get on really well with him. But you know what? Some women have to make that decision. And they also have to decide, well, I'm going to be on my own financially. And I can't imagine how much harder that decision must be. I mean decide well I'm going to be on my own financially and how I can't imagine how much harder that decision must be I mean 10 times harder than the one I had to make the respect I have for those women knows no bounds the bravery to say I'm going to have to do all of this and then I'm going to have no financial stability and no help with the kids those women are goddesses now actually

you said that you judge people god damn i judge people i judge people all day long everyone does and yes everyone's every so often clicks onto the daily mail it's just it's not it's not i don't like doing either but some every so often it just happens well i make the choice to because I'm weak but if anyone says that misogyny is not alive and well you go and have a look at the Daily Mail comments and the reason they're so interesting to look at as a research piece is they are truthful because people at work they know that if they say something misogynistic to a woman they will get fired if they say something misogynistic to me they're going to get an earful because that's how it is when you do direct communication. The comments in the Daily Mail are people's subconscious stream and they're

unchecked. And I judge women, of course, actually, but I like you, I question myself forensically all the time. And I hope that as I do do that my little judgment gremlins get smaller and smaller and I beat them with a stick and I think I love that you do that and I love that that's the kind of woman that you are that a you admit look we can all be racist sexist prejudiced we can all be that all day long because that's the society we've grown up in the difference between the people I want to hang out with and people I really don't. The people admit it and say, I'm really going to try to do better. I'm going to try and rectify my mistakes. But the Daily Mail comments, there should be some kind of billboard

in Leicester Square where they all get posted with their full name and address. I mean, those comments are disgusting. And there are some women who actually go and read them. God help them take their phones away because they'll break your heart really i used to funnily enough when i was catapulted into this industry through reality tv which where you literally go from being i don't want to say no one because everyone is a someone worthy of but in terms of not known by other people yeah industry and knowing how the industry works. I went from nobody knowing me and talking about me

to everyone knowing and talking about me for that short period of time that I was on it. I remember reading the Daily Mail comments. It was also before I was wise enough to not, I was a people pleaser. Reading horrible things about me, I was thinking, how can I change to prove that I am not that person? Eventually, I but obviously it was still a novelty to my family as well and I remember my mum bringing me up being like actually my parents are Geordie just for context actually I can't believe what people are saying about you they're saying you're a beach wheel you were how are you a beach wheel and I thought do you know what this is actually like alarming to me that I was a size eight probably a size six and I was considered a beach well I was like what I mean

and they were probably some of the kind of comments that came out but it's interesting isn't it because we all still judge if you think that we've got this funny dichotomy of you say you're a people pleaser well think about the whole of the school institution. It's teaching children to be people pleasers. Look up, please and thank you. Yes, you know, you've got to mind about what people think. And that's how society works. Being a people pleaser is actually a very useful way to function in society.

It's being conscientious. Like my son is a real people pleaser, but I actually don't mind that about him. He really minds about people. He really minds about people being happy and nice he'll ask people if they want a drink he'll be he'll share his blanket he's a really sweet little boy you're right being a people pleaser is a good thing as long as you have boundaries but actually now you're on the telly Jim Bob and Sue can see you and so that people pleasing mechanism is spread out into the ocean it's like I want everyone I do think that people pleasing mechanism is spread out into the ocean. It's like, I want everyone. I do think that people who go on the telly or who do jobs over a public profile,

there should be some kind of course. Do you think some kind of like online course that you can go, oh, here you go. You're on Made in Chelsea. You're on the news. You read the weather. Here's a link to the online course telling you how not to give a shit about what Jill thinks one of my favorite sayings is what Helen thinks about my skirt is none of my business I think because I was in production I was a researcher and an assistant producer going through television I learned from the backstage like peeping through the curtains about how vile people can be to people on the telly because I was watching these girls get destroyed in front of my eyes they'd come into the program lovely shiny excited and they would leave broken and I and so I think I had that so I'm because I'm incredibly sensitive like a meerkat I don't look at the I don't look at the comments I only read reviews if they've been vetted by my family

they read me bad ones but they don't read me ones that are full of vitriol I don't care if they think I'm overweight if they don't like my clothes I'm really happy and I really love my life and I put a little bubble over myself like this and it's fucking bulletproof it is absolutely bulletproof and some things get through but you know people go oh you should grow a thick skin I don't want a thick skin I have a really thin skin and I'm a really nice friend and I'm really fun to be around and I'm really happy and that skin is going to stay nice and thin and flexible and and empathetic and I feel and I love and I care and I think it's sad when when these women get broken you know we have so many examples of how women stop being creative they stop going for programs they you know they for programmes, they leave the industry.

So we lose these beautiful, creative spirits because they've been broken by dicks in the comments, in the daily mail comments. People are fucking angry and unhappy. They're angry and they're unhappy. And if you were writing in the daily mail comments, there is only one identity that you carry and that is you're is ignorant and angry this is like such

an off-tangent topic but it's interesting because I had a conversation this weekend with my friend Vicky who is a single parent to her amazing daughter like the fact that you know she chose to be a single parent she adopted like she is a superhero and how she how any of anyone is able to parent on their own especially as a woman having to face the pathetic shame and stigma and judgment but she's now decided to like enter into the dating world and she said to me after somebody was obviously really rude about her circumstances they're not interested because she's a single mom and she said oh maybe I'm just too nice and it's exactly what you what you're saying it's like but what is wrong with being nice and being nice is a great thing and I will get the same wrong because that is literally what I do especially since having a baby I'm like miss I call myself a

miss malaprop because if there's a phrase I'm saying I will butcher it but isn't is there something you're saying like just because you get one flat tire don't put out the other three and just because that one person has really warped outdated judgmental views about the fact that you're a single parent and the fact that you have adopted don't let him impact you on your kindness and your niceness, because actually you and your daughter will be a blessing to someone. Absolutely. I think that I've really found hugely helpful is to learn about the history of where it comes from. It's almost like you smash this illusion that they're right. So it's really historical. I'm sure people already know this, but I find it really interesting. so it's really historical i'm sure people already know this but i found it really interesting so in the victorian ages when women were vibrant when they talked a lot when they didn't want to

get married or they didn't want children they did anything that wasn't being a nice quiet baby making factory that cooked and cleaned and facilitated a man's life like staff you were you didn't want to be staff and this i am I am really condensing a lot of things but they were just for kind of um I don't know this I'm fascinated I'm like this is really a brief I'm abbreviating of course so if a woman was she didn't want to be the maid essentially and facilitate her husband's life then she would be given a hysterectomy. She would be given treatment. She was thought to be mentally unwell. And if you think about hysteria, I think if they're connected to the Greek word, I think the Greek word is hysteria. And if you think about hysterectomy,

so they would try and calm her down. And if a woman, by the same note, if a woman was decided to be a single parent, her children would be taken away from her. They'd be to the father there wouldn't even be a court case it would just that's what happened the children with with her husband's property they were shamed they were put in workhouses they were thought to be sinful every word that you could put on that mother and that's because they wanted to keep the family unit together more than anything. And that was because of religion and culture and everything came together. But everything to stop a woman breaking up the family home. And the reason I believe this is just my hypothesis. But the reason for that is because I think the setup for women was so shit.

The reason for that is because I think the setup for women was so shit. So they had to put chains on women because who wants to be a maid all their life? Who does? No one. So you have to then bash it into women that this is your life. This is your meaning. This is your value. And if you step out of that, you will go into a workhouse. You will die of poverty. You will be shamed. You will be thought of as a whore. you will have your hysterectomy. I mean, actually, what worse things could you say to a woman to lock her in her own home? It was chains. And so women didn't leave,

women didn't become single mothers. And if they did, it was by not by their own choice often, because the consequences were so heinous and this is a hangover from that there is an anger in society when a woman decides to become a single parent and if a woman decides to have a life and be happy after being a single mum I mean the rage you're dating you're dating as a single mum how can that be it's so interesting because we moved into a house in Essex in the summer and I found out recently that it actually used to belong to the nuns where basically women who gave birth out of wedlock were all you know underage or whatever it was were sent to this house to have their babies and then essentially get their babies

baby house they're the mother and baby houses also I thought what a great fuck you to the history of this house that I am not a single parent but I'm an unmarried woman living with her boyfriend and their bastard child I was like that is that is a great fucking history beautiful and radiant and public and speaking out and talking about body it's like you are infusing the house with a very different energy but I get such great energy from this house you know and so it was really like shocking to me when I found that out but I like to think it's like I don't know. The house needs you, darling.

The house needs you. It needs good energy. It needs fresh energy. And I'm sure there's lots of women who lived in it before you who have also done that work. But we need to speak out. And I think women doing wonderful things and feeling happy and maybe being single or unmarried or whatever it is to say to the women below us I don't give a shit if Jill or Steve carry on for the rest of their lives thinking that women are women of the night if they're married oh god well she got divorced again I really don't care they can sit and read their papers and eat their croissant are fine live their life I want the women after us to not be scared I don't want women in

the 20 who are 25 who got married early thinking I'm going to stay in this awful marriage that I shouldn't have done because I don't want to be a single mum you don't want to be a single mum being a single mum is really great yes there's logistical difficulties in it but i tell you what it's way better than being in an unhappy marriage like different league better for me it's really interesting and i've always thought this because obviously i was single and didn't want children up until into my 30s and i thought a lot about the milestones that we really celebrate in life i have a friend going through divorce now although although she doesn't have children. But it's so interesting that we put so much celebration. And by the way, this isn't a diss to anyone who, of course, has babies or gets married,

because I think things that make people happy are wonderful, like follow what makes you happy. But what I have issue with is the fact that we celebrate those things so much above other things, which is also why I think people maybe are more likely to make the wrong decisions because who doesn't want to get those celebrations who doesn't want to put up a picture saying I said yes or whatever that kind of meme is because you want validation and and you want a celebration and you want a party and I remember I bought house on my own and even you know career highlights and there was no celebration and there was no gift list. And there was no, I remember even being bitter about going to, going to weddings and stuff like I have to

pay for myself. Like, I mean, I was a proper scrooge about it and I've grown and I've learned and I'm happy for everyone now. But I think we should have like huge divorce parties because you're like, of course it's traumatic and stuff but what strength to get divorced and oh I go back to what you were saying about your own judgments you judge single women because you used to judge single women and that I think is a huge light bulb moment for me because and I talk about my pre-judgments mums before I became one and I think you know even when I came when I became pregnant and I cringe now and I see other people doing it because we all have this well not

we all but a lot of us have this preconceived idea like even the word mumsy that we have a preconceived idea about what it is to be a mum and we we judge people and then we come to the other side and we're so paranoid which is also part of like the mom identity which a lot of this podcast is about like finding who the fuck I am again because I've got all of me who I was before and the judgments about being a mom and then I've got me as a mom and I'm like well which fucking one am I and it's because it's really difficult I think if you like say like before I became a single mum, I didn't think that I judged single mums. But then when I became a single mum and I started to be terrified

and paranoid about what people thought of me, without them even having to speak, you know, I thought, where is this coming from? And I was like, oh, it's me. Now, not all of it. Lots of people did judge me. And society has done some shocking things about perception of women. I remember David Cameron, when all the riots were happening, saying, oh, it's those boys with single mums at home.

Oh, my God. No, he did not. No, he did. The only reason that there may have been a link is because statistically there are more single mums in families of lower income. But the reasoning of that is so complicated and so nuanced, I'm not going to go into now. But the fact that he linked those tells me what an ignorant man he is. And I think Margaret Thatcher, she said that children were better off with adopted parents than with their single mother. So these are not old. These are not old. This happened relatively recently. So this is, we are breaking the stigma.

And in terms of identity, this is why podcasts and the more the merrier and content and YouTube, this is why this content is still so powerful and needed because we are breaking, you are breaking a stigma that is still there. And when growing up, did I ever hear a conversation between two women about being a single parent and having a wonderful life? Like, I love my life. I'm really happy. But the image portrayed of single mothers and mothers was not celebratory I don't think. Well I found the portrayal of

being a mum was almost so rosy and glossy I mean people say that social media glosses over motherhood but for me I feel that whenever we are open about the challenges of motherhood we are shot down with you should be grateful don't be negative and i even said it because you say it was all rosy and i agree with you it was rosy in that it was all shiny and nice but i looked at that as a kid and i thought that's terrifying to me that is that idea that all you do as a woman is you turn into this robot you turn to this like smiling, slightly dead inside. Here's the food on the table. Here's the food on the table.

Here's the laundry done. Here's the laundry done. Are you okay? That woman, it's like she switches off herself and she's all about caring for other people. It's like she's not allowed to have her own interests or her own power or her own fun. And so I agree. The portrayal of that was wrong

in two ways a you don't see clearing up the shit and being tired you don't see the reality of being a parent you also don't see the reality of being a woman it's incredibly robotic I just want to make another point because you made such a good point about celebration and I think really I want to talk about that because just for a second, because we are ritualistic beings. We like rituals. We're spiritual, emotional, and physical. We need physical things. And that's why we need rites of passage. When we were living as one collective unit, we would have rites of passage when you became a woman. There'd be some kind of moment when a woman started her period. We don don't anymore it's just kind of slightly strange awkward conversation you have with your mum at best and someone someone put some sanitary pads i was at boarding school and we had a tea

party did you really yeah i remember going to knock on the matron i mean this is how old school our boarding school was but yeah we knocked on i knocked on Macy's door and she was like, oh, darling, lovely. Let's go get the girls. And then we kind of had a semi lesson about periods. But bear in mind, I still did not know that we had a third hole. So when she gave me tampons, I remember going with my friend Lucy Brown, she was called. We literally had our legs together and we were like, where is this mysterious third hole? We literally had our legs together and we were like, where is this mysterious third hole? And I remember like, I think I tried to put a tampon up my bum and I was like, no, it's not that one.

And then right into my wee hole. And I was like, what? So, yeah, we've got a long way to go, but we did have a celebration. Oh, my God. I went to boarding school, too. And I think we all sat on beanbags and ate toast and marmite outside in the common room. Welcome to Paranormal Activity with me Yvette Fielding, a brand new podcast bringing together people's real ghost, extraterrestrial and paranormal stories as well as getting some inside details from those who study the supernatural. I'll be listening through your paranormal stories every week and try to understand them as well as chatting about my own encounters with an occasional paranormal investigator too. You can find us wherever you get your podcasts from including Apple Podcasts,

Spotify and Acast. Just search for Paran for paranormal activity with yvette fielding i grew up never really feeling particularly maternal but always presuming i would get married and have children in the future so i think you know when i was 16 i was like i'll get engaged at 26 and i'll have my first baby at 27 and I'll do that. But you forget that, number one, finding a compatible partner is like the main thing of it. But it was always in the future. And then it was only when I kind of, you know, met Tom and he really wanted children. And it almost like scared me because I was like, well, actually, I'll say this.

Even when I found out I was pregnant, I rang my friend and when she was like it was a surprise pregnancy was and I remember being like oh my god it's lockdown like what am I going to do about this and she was like you know that you can have the baby and I was like but I'm too young and she was like you're 33 and I was like and I think it's because in my head it was always I'll do it in the future because it never quite felt right in the moment it's so funny you're 33 years old you know dreamed I got I had a surprise pregnancy when I was 28 with Coco and I think had I not got surprised pregnant I would have been exactly the same as you I was really happy in my television career I was an assistant producer I'd worked incredibly hard to get there absolutely loved it and there was no no way would I've got pregnant by planning it for a very very very long time and it was a really happy mistake and I absolutely loved her dad and

so it was a really I was like go on but I absolutely shit my pants I was listening I found out in a disabled blue in Westfield in Shepherd's Bush I was listening to Usher at the time and I didn't even turn it I didn't think I was pregnant I just was like oh my boobs feel massive I feel a bit sick so I went into that I've never done a pregnancy test in my life and I don't know why I did it I just did it and I remember with my ear earbuds in just looking at it and usher like banging away these are my confessions yeah and i called my friend ellie and i walked around westfield and i swore i'm all the way from top shop to zara just swore and she went fuck

and then i remember saying to her i just don't feel ready and she said you know love you love him and you want him to be with him for the rest of your life you could do this and I remember thinking yeah I'm actually not too young but if you haven't grown up wishing for it and begging for it it hits you like a train it hits you like an absolute train I don't think anyone well some people what's the age gap between Coco and Edward it's four years and I think again I put off having another baby for a while because the first one had been such a shock although after the minute she came out I was madly in love I absolutely love being a mum it's I absolutely

love it it's gonna be really really difficult at times it the difficulty is nothing to do with them the difficulty is due with logistics so But I absolutely love being with them. But then when I had Bear, we planned it in a much more kind of conscious way. And it was really calm and really lovely. And I liked the age gap. I really love the age gap because I feel like Coco and I had four years when it was just us. I don't do well with chaos. I like calm and peace.

And so it allowed me to have a really peaceful four years with Coco. And then Bear came around and she was a little bit older and then she was going to school. So it was all just manageable. Although they're not wildly close. I mean, they're nice to each other, but not wildly close. So there's a bit of a payoff there, I think. Because it's really interesting because obviously Alf is now well over one which feels mad to say like where has the year gone like the fact I'm a mum of a one-year-old but I I keep thinking like would would I want him to be an only

child am I able and am I able to do it again like biologically but also like the mental physical everything like can I do that again and Tommy has um three siblings and there's four years between all of them as well and probably similar to what you're saying that you know they're really close but there's always been an age gap the age gap gets smaller as you get older I think yeah for sure but then I think I always said if I ever have children I want one year between but obviously I didn't even like do the maths about that I was like I mean I've still had stitches but you know I was and even when I find out that people have babies really soon after and don't get me wrong again this is like no judgment and I'm delighted especially because I know a lot of friends with fertility issues who've managed to have children straight after. And I think that's wonderful.

But I remember thinking like, how are they even having sex yet? I know. I think there's real like pros and cons of both. But I have really loved having the age gap because I really feel like I had that lovely time with Coco. I was also meant that I recovered mentally as well. Like I started to really feel like myself again. And that was important for

me because I wonder for me if I'd left it too long I wouldn't have I loved that I got to find myself again I started going out with my friends I started wearing my old clothes you know I'm not talking in size of size but in terms of you know when you go out on the town you wear like wildly impractical things and you go and have fun so I was I started to feel like myself and I loved the balance between finding myself and being a mom and I really like sunk into that and was like oh okay this is what this is what the gang is this is what the new dynamic is I love this and then so when Bear when I had Bear I had something to go back to so obviously you you lose your body again and you become you know that first six months having a baby really your life is so much about

that baby of course but because I'd had time to find myself it wasn't that wasn't too distant a memory so I could do it again so yeah I'm I also people do say this and I found it to be true. Having Bear was so, so much calmer and so much, I think, easier for me. I just knew what I was doing. With Coco, when you're a first kid, it's like being picked up and put into a foreign country. And someone goes, go on then, have a laugh. And also at the same time, dealing with all your prejudgments. So at the same time, dealing with all your like prejudgments. And also for me, I found anyway, it's also the lack of understanding.

I feel like when you're a mom, you're almost like put into a new world that you didn't even know existed. You kind of thought you knew, but you had no idea. And so also a lot of like my friendships changed. And I've always said, like, I get it because I apologize to so many of my friends who are mums once I became one because I was like oh my god I didn't ask you anything like why didn't I come around and let you nap like I and I've got a friend that does it now she's like how's Alf anyway what else is new and I'm like no there's literally nothing else like this this has been it now they're starting to be else but there wasn't else and she never really asked and I was taking that personally but then I was like but I didn't before I knew and some people are really good like I've got friends who don't have children

and don't want children and they're great with him but in general massively generalizing it's just that you're and you enter into this new world and dynamics change it's true how many times do people say when you're playing they were like oh my god I've done this. Exactly. Oh my God, I'm so going to come and babysit. Obviously no one speaks like that, but how many of your friends, if you caught them on a Friday night, you'd be like, so can you not one, again, generalization, some people would be there,

but I wouldn't even call them. I'd be like, go and live your life. Go and do your thing. I offered it to people. I don't think I've ever babysat for a friend's child even once and then when you become a mum it's too late because you need it I actually thought to myself after spending a weekend with Vicky my amazing single mum that I was like I need to actually give out vouchers you know like on Valentine's day when you're a teenager you give like sex vouchers or whatever they are yeah you want

no job i owe you that's what we need to do for parents like we actually do what gift i owe you one day nap i owe you a babysitting i remember when i was in the grips of sleep deprivation and it was on this podcast so people listening have been through it with me and alf was waking up every 30 minutes for a good like months and months and i only just feel now that i'm starting to get my sanity back but i remember a friend messaging me like sending hugs and i remember being like fuck your hugs i want you to come over and let me nap what what what good are virtual hugs also i want a physical hug. Do you know what I want? I want to sleep. I can't eat a hug. Bring me a lasagna and take the baby out for two hours.

Take the baby out for two hours. Cooked meals. Oh, cooked meals. That needs to come in the checkbook. We need to go to Anne Summers. I think you need to do like an online portal where people can say, right, this is what I'm going to do. Frozen lasagna and a hug. No, fuck your virtual hug. Fuck your hug.

No, no virtual hug. Fuck you. We can do that for divorces as well. Like a little checkbook of like, while you get your life back together, here's the checkbook from here. Yes. Cash it in. Here's 50 quid because you may need some baby,

you may need some childcare because you're now not living with another adult. Here's 30 pounds for Deliveroo when you feel really sad and you don't know what the hell you're like. Because this brilliant writer, Amy Poehler, she wrote, she's this brilliant comedian. She wrote in her book,

getting a divorce is like getting every single thing you own and then just chucking it in the air. And then you slowly over the course, I think it takes two years. That's what she said in her book that's how I found it my godmother said to me it would take two years I reckon it's two years on the nose where you suddenly feel like my life is back my life is my own and I feel like I'm home again but I think 50 pound delivery vouchers this is actually gone you've got to do this you've got to do that for new mums as well nap vouchers oh I feel like this is a great thing.

The sad thing is that we shouldn't really have business meetings on a podcast because now it's open to everyone. Unless I trademark this before this podcast is released. We are the worst entrepreneurs ever. I really hope, by the way, that somebody does this business. And please, please, if you do this business, let us know that it's because of this conversation, because I think it's brilliant. Cherry, I feel like I could talk to you for ages. Sometimes I've forgotten that I'm even doing a podcast. Every week, I basically read out a message from one of my listeners who gets in touch.

And this one is from Erin, who I've not actually read in advance. So she got in touch on the email, which is askmumsthewordpod at gmail.com. actually read in advance so she got in touch on the email which is askmomsthewordpod at gmail.com and she said hi Ashley I've just watched your stories from last night about overwhelm anxiety and although I did send you a DM when I saw your story about considering antidepressants I'm sure you get inundated with DMs and I really didn't want this to miss you in case no one has ever mentioned it to you and like me you had no idea it was even a thing when I hear you speak about how you're feeling at the moment it's honestly like looking at myself in the mirror without the great hair by the way not today but thanks a couple of months ago and now I'm coming out the other side of it and I've spoken to some

professionals and done some research and I really do believe the reduction and stopping of breast feeding my son massively impacted my mood and this is so interesting because obviously I'm a bit ahead now I have stopped breastfeeding, but she said, in short, I had to call my husband home from work one day because I was so low and I was worried he wouldn't make it through the afternoon live until he got home at dinner time. I know that's a big statement. It still scares me to say it, but I do have a better understanding of these intrusive thoughts now with the hormone imbalance of stopping breastfeeding. And I was given tablets to dry my milk up, which I think just pushed me over the edge. I believe the gradual drop in hormones,

as Will fed less, just slowly, slowly dragged me further and further down. Looking back now, it's easy to see how it was all connected. But what I did want to say, as well as raising awareness of PWD, which is post-weaning depression, it does get easier. I actually said to my husband yesterday that this week, Will week has made being a parent so fun and enjoyable. And although, yes, I feel bad, I didn't always feel like that before. It's just the truth. Anyway, if you've made it this far, I really do hope you're okay. Go easy on yourself.

And sending you a big awkward hug. I hope this message has helped you and others who are going through the same. Erin, thank you, by the way, so much for writing such a long message. But it's so interesting that I'm reading this now because I hadn't read it in advance. And I, in the last week or two weeks have stopped breastfeeding and I've, I feel more like myself and this is not, you know, everybody knows how much I love breastfeeding. So please, this is not to put anyone off or anything because I'm so proud of the journey, but I definitely, I didn't know about post-weaning depression. And I suppose there is an element of like enjoying my autonomy you

know I'm not having to get dressed in the morning thinking like can I get my boob out in this but not too much that society will judge me for having my boobs out like there's a lot that's going on as someone with big boobs now I just get dressed and if it's cold I put on whatever I want to put on to protect myself from the cold and I don't have to think about someone on my boobs all the time and it is like the first time like hearing you say it you know it started it took a while to get over that like initial shock of motherhood and I genuinely am starting to feel like I'm loving Alf I feel like I've got my ducks in a row more that whether like you know with child care to be able to get my work done so

then when I'm with him I'm not thinking I need to be doing my work and feeling guilty about it. And I am actually starting to enjoy it. And that's why, like, God help me. I'm asking you about what it's like to have a second child. And then I have to be like, whoa, just enjoy getting to see your friends again. Because you've sorted your shit out.

And I think it's funny. It takes a while to sort your shit out. It really does. Because it is like an atom bomb. I was really interesting. The email really didn't get on with breastfeeding at all. I was I really thought I would do. I thought I'd do it easily. I've got quite big boobs as well. I suppose I just some reason I thought that that would mean that I would breastfeed easily. It was a nightmare. I was back in hospital with Coco. I got my stye so badly. I didn't know what it was. So I just kept on trying to breastfeed and then I got taken into A&E and they kept me in there for five

days and pumped me full of antibiotics and I was very very very unwell and then I just I stopped after that and I pumped and I absolutely started to love being a mum immediately after that it wasn't it wasn't for me I really I cried every time she breastfed it was a nightmare actually it was an absolute nightmare with bear I gave it another go because I knew a lot more and I knew when to spot mastitis I got antibiotics really quickly so I was it wasn't as miserable I only did it for two months I'm really glad I did it for two months but then when I stopped again you do slightly you have a lot more freedom although I didn't do it more I think it's so baby dependent but my god it's not always easy and I think that's great you know like I wish people didn't feel guilt about their choice to breastfeed or not because it's not for everyone and like you said you got dread when when you

tried to breastfeed bear and I had the opposite I was worried about stopping because I was like will I still like this because it was really the only bit of it I loved at the beginning or throughout you know especially when I was feeling low I was like at least I can look at my baby and my boobs and I also felt as someone who's always had big boobs and always had that like sort of judgment or comments you know stop seeking attention or being made to feel like my body was this sexual asset that I had to cover up if I wanted to be taken seriously, that suddenly it was almost like I felt like

I was reclaiming my body in a maternal way, which was the opposite. And I just think, I wish society knew how hard it was for women to breastfeed. So A, people didn't feel the need to carry on if it wasn't working for them because everybody knows that. Well, I wish more people knew the health benefits so they could make educated decisions,

but also that they had the support that they didn't have to stop if they didn't want to. That's number one. But I also wish people understood how consuming it was so that we didn't have to deal with like ignorant comments around like women should cover up women should stay in the house it's attention seeking to breastfeed in public it's like do you want someone just to live in their home for a year like you I don't think people quite realize how consuming it is and go even like the psychology

of it like having to get dressed to be able to have easy access to your boobs having to give up your body and also using your body in a different way because like boobs are seen as sexual so whether you want that or not and also getting to enjoy like boobs and sex like now if Tom goes anywhere near my nipples I'm like get off my udders I don't think I'll ever ever go go back to like enjoying. Yeah, you will. Yeah, you will. It's a coming. It's a coming.

I've been following your breastfeeding journey really closely because I find that really fascinating. And I love that you've been so open about it. And every time you do those posts, I'm just saluting you from afar. I'm just saluting you from afar. And it was I was I was happy for you when I know quite recently you said that you were stopping only because I felt like I felt like, God, how do I know? I did think, oh, it's you've you've made your own decision based on your individual circumstance. I really felt like you had made that decision for yourself and hadn't been pushed into it. And that's why I was so happy for you that you made that decision. Because breastfeeding, I mean, I made a documentary about breastfeeding called Is Breast Best? And no documentary has caused more vitriol and horrendous comments than that documentary. It's this amazing war between people who really think that they they want the choice

and then people who think that people shouldn't have the choice I wish someone told me about mixed feeding because that really changed my life so bear I was able to breastfeed bear for two months even though I have to find it really difficult because I mixed feed I mixed fed is it called combi feeding so you get like yeah and that was really wonderful so I could get let my boobs have a rest and then I but it allowed me to breastfeed him for two months and I know that's not a massively long time but for me considering how traumatized I was from cocoa that was really lovely so it's funny because you know the NCT classes did you do them I didn't do them but I hear I did I did a couple of them and i maybe i missed missed

them but i didn't go i didn't i couldn't go to all the sessions i was working so i kind of wish they would do more on what happens after the birth like you could get postnatal weaning you know all of these things i think actually it's quite easy to put on the nappy i want to know what happens after i've given birth you know it's so interesting because my pelvic health physiotherapist Marta Kinsella she's called amazing amazing person she has been pushing for I don't know if it's NCT or bump and baby but all of these classes to talk more about postnatal bodies like what happens to the vagina the fact that you shouldn't be loading up you know we're all so excited to get our baby carriers on and carry our babies around and she was like you are

not giving your pelvic floor a chance to rest like you are essentially carrying a weight on your body like sit down don't go for the walk like heal and you know what the consequence about the consequence if you don't prolapse you can get oh yeah i had prolapse i had i had anal prolapse and i talk about it a lot and it was traumatic because i wasn't i was just not prepared i i remember being excited to give birth because i was like now i finally know the mystery of what happens to a woman's vagina because like everyone when you give birth i feel like there's a standard procedure now that you you document your pregnancy not everyone everyone, but online document, you go under, there's like a social media blackout for a week or two.

And then you emerge out the other side with a beautiful picture of you and your baby. And you might talk a bit about the birth, but it's normally they weighed this. I'm so in love. And I was like, but what about your body? Like, what is your vagina doing? That's so interesting. I never thought about that before that's really that must be really scary if you're watching that and you're like what happens I was like yeah but how is your vagina what is that like I want I don't yeah yes I'm glad the baby's here and healthy but like I want to know my vagina went up to 10 centimeters and now it's

and I was like but why is no one talking about the body? Yeah. Do you still have piles? Which by the way, I still have piles a year later. Yeah, I've got piles. I talked about that on my documentary called Cherry Has a Baby. And I remember always saying, and this is something I, you know, I was joking with my friends.

I'd always go, for the love of God, just anything except piles. Anything but piles. They sound so gross. Oh my God, just anything except piles. Anything but piles. They sound so gross. Oh my God, they sound so gross. What's the first thing I get? Fucking piles. I carried a chest of drawers. I was helping someone move house because I'm a dick.

And they were like, no, no, I was more there for moral support and help. But I'm really impatient. And someone was making a right song and dance of taking this little side table down the stairs I was like oh for god's sake so I carried it downstairs and I was like oh that wasn't good and I got piles so I just had to talk about it on the on the tv because I just felt like it was it was an honest it was a piece of honesty there but they're really really common so I didn't do NCT but I did an episode a couple of weeks ago with Natalie Rushdie and she said that in NCT when they talk about what happens in birth or after briefly they send the men out for coffee and I was like do not do like they need to know like they

really need to know like also I was making Tom check my stitches because I was like is my vagina still there is it attached like what is going on down there? Can someone please tell me? And like I don't like Martha said, they're just not interested in including that in NCT. And I don't know if it's like the prudishness or the shame and taboo around sex in our society, which, you know, we've covered with single mothers and shame and all of this shit. Teach us about our bodies and teach the men alongside it because if you miss that opportunity for them to sit and it may it might be awkward for some but if you if you include it in a relaxed way in a relaxed tone what people

hear is this is nothing to be ashamed of this is nothing to be nervous of if you make people if you make the men go out for whiskey and cigars what you were saying to them is this is nothing to be ashamed of. This is nothing to be nervous of. If you make people, if you make the men go out for whiskey and cigars, what you were saying to them is this is women's problem and it's mucky and secret. That's what you're saying. And I think then that puts more pressure on people when they aren't ready to have sex. Because we, for whatever reason,

we have this like archaic caveman idea that if we don't have sex with men after birth that he'll leave us or whatever it is and I remember saying to Tom like oh I'm just not ready for sex and he was like do you know I think I'm terrified I'm not ready and I was like oh I hadn't really thought about you I just presumed that you were like the caveman with your stick like waiting hell no I do not want to have sex with you of course that's that's interesting I've never thought about that but of course it must be scary because you know that your partner's been hurt. You don't know how that's, I mean, that's, yeah.

What's going to go, what's going to happen in the other stitches? And also with alongside the education, if the partner is breastfeeding, they need to know that there is absolutely no natural lubrication. I feel like that should be number one in the sex ed. I didn't know that.

Yeah, because the oestrogen change, there is literally no, like, it's like a doll. I mean, why? Why do we get taught how to put on a nappy when you can Google it? And yet you, you don't know that. Oh my God. I think because I wasn't breastfeeding, I didn't expect that. But I mean, that's a relatively large piece of information that we should be we should be told yeah I mean it's quite intense isn't it so anyway there are amazing people campaigning or pushing for these classes the pregnancy classes preparation classes to include more about postnatal so if you're listening to this and you're doing classes keep pushing be like what happens to the vagina be the destructive this disruptive person that's like what about prolapses

I want to talk about piles and lube anyway I could talk for so long but I'm so conscious of you know time is precious as a mom and for people listening as well so I've actually loved chatting to you Cherry it was amazing I feel like I didn't cover half of what I wanted to but so much of what like it was great I it. Thank you so much for having me on. You brought so many fantastic points. I could have talked to you forever. Such a delight to be on and chat to you. Thank you so much. And if you do have any questions or any comments about today's episode, then please, please remember to get in touch by emailing askmumsthewordpod at gmail.com. And you can leave a voicemail or a voice note I suppose it is on whatsapp the number

is 075 999 27537 and of course you can leave it as a review on apple podcast as well and if you are on apple podcast I feel like such a youtuber every time I say this but please leave us a review and a five star rating follow and subscribe but mainly I just hope that you're enjoying it and if you think someone would enjoy this episode, then please tell them about it. And I'll be back same time, same place next week.