Mum's The Word! The Parenting Podcast - Dr Jane Gilmour on Handling Toddler Meltdowns

Episode Date: May 29, 2022

Consultant Clinical Psychologist at Great Ormond Street Hospital, and Course Director for postgraduate child development programmes at University College London, Dr Jane Gilmour joins Ashley to share advice on how to deal with toddler meltdowns. She also shares some quick and easy techniques to deal with emotional moments and gives insight into how to effectively communicate with your child. Her book, 'How to Have Incredible Conversations with your Child' is available in paperback in all major bookshops. If you want to ask Ashley a question, get in touch at [e-mail]---A Create Podcast Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

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Peloton all-access membership separate. Learn more at onepeloton.ca slash running. So I think I've made it really clear. I mean, you guys have been on a journey with me throughout Alf's life, but I think I've made it really clear that as he gets older, my enjoyment of motherhood just grows and grows and grows. And it's funny because I was actually really scared about the toddler stage and I was kind of worried about him not being a baby anymore. But actually, I'm loving the toddler stage, even though they're snotty and gross. But one thing I have really noticed, and I laugh, but I know it's not funny, I don't laugh to his face, is that when he gets frustrated now,

he started to kind of throw whatever is in his hand and go like, ooh, and then he hits himself on the head, and sometimes it seems quite hard. And so I know the dreaded toddler tantrums are coming, I know the dreaded toddler tantrums are coming and I really want to make sure that I know how to deal with it in the right way because I feel like typically probably previous generations we kind of treated toddler tantrums as if children were being naughty and I think now we know more so anyway I am obviously in no stretch of the imagination an expert in this. And I just really want to learn more. So I know you're all going to love today's guest, whether you are up to your eyeballs in toddler tantrums or whether you just know that they're coming. They come really quickly. Even if you have a newborn, one day you save this one and come back to it because today I'm going to be speaking to Dr.

Jane Gilmore. She is a consultant clinical psychologist at Great Ormond Street Hospital and she's a course director for postgraduate child development programs at the University College London. She has actually co-authored a book called The Incredible Teenage Brain. Obviously we're not talking about teenagers today, although please come on again in a few years because that will be another, a whole different ballgame. But today's episode is all about toddler meltdowns and the secrets that science can tell us about this. So first of all, Jane, thank you so much for your time. I know how busy you are. It's a real pleasure. Thanks for having me.

I should also add as well that you are also a mum so you have been through this and experienced this i have and you know it's something that i think you know you said i'm not an expert in this but actually we're all experts in our own kids and actually thinking about their emotional temperature is something that we need to learn as they grow up but we can get better at it it's a skill like anything. So I love the idea that we're all experts about our own kids, yeah? Yeah, it is quite interesting, isn't it? Because there is something intuitive that we know our child.

So actually, probably you could speak to experts on a variety of subjects, like for example, sleep training or whatever it might be. But I feel like we do what feels right to us with the knowledge of our baby. So you can take the research and the science and everything else, but ultimately like a lot of it is down to kind of navigating

what we know versus our child and it really is this is about handing your expert knowledge as a parent over to them over a period of years so they become experts in themselves right so you're understanding their emotional temperature or whatever that might be when they're in these preschool years as a toddler that's a parent's job they're they're so little that's what you know an adult around them needs but over time this is a process about handing over that understanding about themselves about emotions about the whole rainbow of emotions so that by the time they get towards the teenage years which you you talked about, and I will be back here talking about it when you're ready. Please come back. But really this, I mean, this is your, you know, having both that emotional literacy and also having that strength of relationship through the tough times and the positive times is actually one of the key parenting tools that you have in the teenage years, because the majority

of teenage experiences happen when you're not in the room as a parent. So now, during these toddler years is a golden opportunity. Your kids want to be around you, you want to be around them, and it's a time to really strengthen and embed all these relationship issues so that they're strong and ready for the challenges of the future years. What age is a toddler? Because I remember even thinking, you know, when Alf, even in the last couple of months, like now I've started to stop seeing him as a baby, but there was a period where people were calling him a toddler and I was like, no, he's not a toddler, he's a baby. What is the official sort of? I mean, it broadly means, you know, when they start to toddle about and walk around.

I mean, normally parents and health professionals and so on talk about toddlers as being around about 18 months or so. But also we're talking about, you know, these meltdowns and these strong emotional experiences. They can be around even from 12 months old or so. So it's a broad band of age and developmental milestone. But I think you use it it you use what suits you I think if you call your kid a toddler that's that's okay by the way I did look on Instagram and I think Alfie is just delicious I saw some pictures of him he is very sweet I'd call him a toddler he was toddling and something I saw so I think he definitely toddles and he's starting to

take a few steps he's still a bit lazy with and lazy, he can do it in his own time. I'm actually really chilled about that. He chats and yeah, I'm very chilled about when they learn to do things. But is it normal that he hits himself in the face? And talk both used the phrase meltdown. Some people use toddler tantrums. You will see in the literature, terrible twos, right? So it is around people talk about this phase in kind of day to day discussion. And there is some truth to the stereotype in as much as about 85% of kids in the early years will have something that, you know, would look like a tantrum or a meltdown. And as far as the mental health and health professionals are concerned, this is a normal developmental stage. So this is something to be expected and definitely not anything that we would be concerned about. I think the other thing to say about emotions before we unpack a bit more is that emotions are a way of learning about the world.

It teaches us what we want to come towards, like love. So you're my attachment figure. I'm a toddler. I come toward you because I love you. That's a great thing. That keeps me safe. It keeps me in a good spot. But emotions also teach us about what to keep away from. So I learn if I eat something you talked about, if you eat something disgusting, you'll back off because it's teaching you to stay away from something that might be harmful to you. So I think as a parent, if you sort of keep in mind that framework of emotions being a way of learning about the world, sometimes it can be very helpful when it becomes challenging because it is, right? It is a challenge to manage a little person in front of you who's having a meltdown and is all over the shop.

So sometimes that framework can take the heat out of it. And certainly in the terms of the science, we've known really that these meltdowns are characteristic of the population in preschool, toddler years. But it's only quite recently that we've taken a closer look. So there are some new things in science that can help you day to day as a parent understand it and manage it so that things run a bit more smoothly at home. What is the science behind these emotions? Why do they suddenly, is it just because they're at that development stage where they're learning emotions? Well, it's a great question. And listen, never, never apologize for having a simple framework. I love them. And I said, why would you overcomplicate something when there's no need, right? So toddlers don't have many words to describe their emotions. In fact, somebody did a really lovely

survey and looked at lots of toddlers. And they said that on average, a toddler would have about 2.5 words to describe how they feel. So good and bad is very, very commonly the first ones. Happy or sad might be other contenders. So they don't have very many words yet, and they have these strong emotions, yes. And they also are pushed towards finding control in the world. And this is really important because they're learning to be a little bit more independent. They're not obviously stepping away in the way that a teenager, for example, would do, but they're learning to do things for themselves, feed themselves, toilet themselves, and so on. So the brain is saying, you've got to find some autonomy here within the bounds of what's developmentally appropriate. So you put that together, you've got a little one who cannot

say how they feel and may not, obviously when they're young, not know what it is that they're feeling, not have a word for it, have a very strong pull towards taking control when in fact it may not be appropriate. So you can see how those emotions and anger and frustration and sometimes sadness and so on might get into a really heady mix. It's a perfect storm in some ways. So let's flip reverse to the parents. So we are on the receiving end of these big emotions. So let's take, for example, I know Alf.

He cannot communicate. He's frustrated. He's trying to take control. However, he is also, oh, the new one is really pulling my hair it's really hard not to react when a child obviously not when i say deliberately of course he doesn't understand that it hurts so i if i'm in a in a like calm and good mood i'll be like oh it hurts mummy but then if it's like continuous and it's he's been doing it all day and almost like the more i say like no you know he's in that kind of mindset of like i'm out for blood i will get her hair and it will be

detached from her head what how can i sort of like navigate those meltdowns and you mentioned briefly earlier you know that the science around how to handle so what can we do as parents especially when we're tired and stressed so that we're not just saying, no, naughty, stop it. Absolutely. I mean, I think there are two things to do. I'll give you a three-step plan in a minute, but I think one of the things you answered your question brilliantly, you said, when I'm feeling calm, I say, oh, that hurts. And actually what you're doing there is something really powerful because you are like a rock star for Alfie, right?

What you say and how you navigate the world is the most powerful thing to teach him, right? So if you say, oh, that hurts, he's learning very clearly that that's making you feel that it's painful. The problem that parents and human beings have is that we can't be calm all the time and particularly if you're sleep deprived if you've got a young baby and a toddler that is quite a spicy soup yeah in terms of sleep deprivation and we know that the brain can't function on a calm setting when you're feeling tired so if that were the case and it really was perpetual i would get practical about this if you can get help and step out of the situation so that you can reset, not everybody can do that, but also get practical, put your hair up,

wear a hat. Because actually when you can ignore that and not reinforce it with a long conversation in terms of, you know, you've explained that it hurts you and then you've moved on. But if you're getting into a situation where having a long conversation about hair and it's making you feel irritable, which it will, actually that becomes quite interesting for a developing human being. So this is not a conscious thought, but it's just about watching and understanding that these situations might get a momentum of their own. So what you want to do is stay as calm as you can and make it as uninteresting as possible. And that might mean putting a baseball hat on until the moment passes, because it will. But let me give you the three-step plan,

because I think this might help to some degree. I feel like we're all going to be sat here with our pens like, yes, give me the three-step plan. You know, I've been a mum too. I've been tired too. And I know that these are aspirational steps. So what I don't want to do is be in a situation where parents feel it's something else they have to do. And if you don't do it every time, somehow you failed as a parent. That's not the case. Because look, you know, if you do, if you aspire towards something, most of the time, you'll be doing really, really well. You'll mess up sometimes, it won't go well sometimes, and that's okay. And I think sometimes there's so many strong messages about what you should do in inverted commas as a parent that actually becomes really overwhelming, right? So this is a three-step

plan. So this is the ideal sort of pathway. Knowing it will help you day to day, but recognize, be realistic that you can't do it every time, every day, right? So give yourself a break if you're a parent is my first piece of very strong advice. So I think the first thing to say about the science is that until very recently, people, including all the health professionals and mental health professionals and so on, just considered a meltdown explosive and uncontrolled negative emotion, right? A big ball of negative emotion. But actually, some researchers have looked more closely at that. And what they can say with certainty is that most often a meltdown is a short burst of

really intense anger, followed by a much longer period of sadness and despair. Now, the reason this is really important is that if you can start to think about unpacking emotions and any sort of emotions so that you can organize them for your toddler, you are starting the long path towards emotional literacy. you are starting the long path towards emotional literacy, right? Emotional literacy is the key to wellbeing, is a mental health protector, is the key to forming good relationships, which protect mental and physical health. So actually getting emotional literacy as part of your sort of day-to-day family goal is a really important thing. So that's sort of the context, right? So let's go to the steps. Step number one, you will have heard this before, but make a diary and look out for the triggers. But what I'm seeing here that has got added value is that you want to use these triggers to help your toddler understand their feeling. So for example, let's say that getting

dressed just before breakfast is often meltdown time. It just, you know, it gets really messy. So you might make a note of that and think, okay, so breakfast and meltdowns seem to go together. So your question then would be, is hunger the trigger? Is it lack of choice of our clothes? I mean, it could even be a sensory sensitivity. So lots of preschoolers get very sensitive about labels or scratchy tops, and they can't quite describe what it is, but they get very wound up about it. So here you're going to start this emotional journey by phrasing, and maybe as a question, that emotion. So you might say, oh, this t-shirt, maybe it's a bit rough on your skin,

and I wonder if it makes you feel irritated. Or, you know, you've not had enough breakfast yet and I think you might be hungry, right? Because this allows a toddler to start to link these complicated feelings, like their body is taken over by these massive feelings and they don't know what it is. They've never had that experience quite before. So you're starting to organize their feelings for them, right? So number one, make a diary, look out for the triggers and describe what you might think they may be feeling. Number two, name the emotions you see. This is one of the most simple things you can do, but it's also one of the most effective.

Now, we know that brain science shows us that if we name the emotion or somebody we trust names our emotion, then those emotional centers in our brain will settle down more quickly. So if I say to my toddler, I think you're feeling angry, that actually helps them settle down more quickly. We've seen this, you know, looking at MRI studies, looking to see what happens in the brain. And that actually brings calm more quickly to your young person. Now, this is particularly important for a toddler because we want to get into the habit of talking about these hard emotions like sadness, anger, anxiety. Because we know from the research going forward in families that families sometimes tend not to speak about these hard emotions. And actually, these hard emotions and the discussion of those hard emotions are particularly protective for mental health. months? So I think he understands a lot. But obviously if I say, I think you're feeling angry,

is that going to help him now? Because does he know that word? Yes, he doesn't know yet. It's like the first time he saw an apple and you said this is an apple. He didn't make the connection yet between the apple and the thing to eat. But what toddlers are extraordinary at, they're masters at this, is linking a thing with a label. That's how they're learning language. And so that horrible feeling he's having, his tummy might be churning, you know, he might feel sweaty, he might feel all over the place.

And you, as a trusted adult, are saying, I think you're feeling angry, is helping them say, aha, that is anger. And that is just, it's gold dust. You know, it really is. So it is a concept that will take, you know, this is something that's not going to happen overnight, but it does, it's a skill like any other. And we know that families that talk about emotions more often have higher emotional literacy and it's associated with better mental health. So it really does help. And actually what you might want to do is that, you know, there might be a time where Alfie, say, uses his own made up word. I know a delicious little girl who would say, I'm ballywoola. Right. I don't know what that is, but she did. And I began to learn

that that stood for feeling sort of irritated. Right? It's brilliant. What a word. I feel like we should all use that. I think we should take it and run with it. So, I mean, these sort of, they're often onomatopoeic, aren't they? These toddlers sort of special words, but go with it. Because actually, if they're starting to learn that, that still counts too. And it might be quite interesting for them to sort of, that you're using their word.

Because all you want to do is say this emotional state has got this label. The third step, and this is perhaps something that some parents will find kind of controversial. So often you will see in the literature that if there is a meltdown, use timeout, right? And there is no doubt that that sort of strategy does decrease the frequency of behavior. But if we think about learning emotional literacy, what it means is that there's a toddler who is all over the shop in terms of the emotion. They are socially excluded by their attachment figure and they're left alone and ashamed without any way of making sense of what's happening inside them. So I'm not saying you should actively reinforce meltdowns, nor should you change your strategy. So for example, if it's a meltdown because your toddler would like chocolate, not an

apple, do not change strategy, right? Stay firm, stay strong and keep going where you are headed. But what I'm suggesting here for this third step is that you stay with them in a very low key way and label what you are seeing. And so you're organizing that emotion. And by doing that, so you could literally be sitting alongside them. Now, if you have a toddler that's particularly physical in their expression, so it does happen, it's not okay to hit out. It's not okay to have your hair pulled. That's absolutely not okay. So it might be that you step out of the room, but you're still emotionally connected. You can still be alongside, but you're not allowing yourself to be attacked in any physical way. Not that it would be, it wouldn't be a serious physical assault, but it's not okay. It's not okay. And what you're

doing then, if you are allowing that moment of the emotion settling, you're starting to label, I think you're feeling angry. And then if we come right back to that new science that tells us that these meltdowns are actually sort of lots of complicated emotions, like, so it starts off with anger and it tails off with a sadness, you could watch that and you're not reinforcing in any particular way other than saying, I can see you feel angry. And then when you see the switch to sadness, you could say, I think you're feeling a bit sad now. This is really advanced stuff for a preschooler, but it's really good as a parent to get into that because what you're starting to do is really allow them to understand the shades of their emotion. And you will be amazed that

in families that use more nuanced vocabulary about their emotion are able to describe their emotions more clearly. So a bad feeling can be anxiety, it can be sadness, it can be irritation, it can be frustration. You know, there's lots of kind of shades in there. And so you're starting to allow that to be articulated in a really basic way. So it's a really powerful thing to do.

And you're doing two things here. One is the meltdowns will last a shorter period of time. Second, you are starting to teach them emotional literacy. But third, and this is probably the most powerful message of all, you're saying in our family, we talk about the tough emotions, we figure things out calmly. And those two pieces of messaging are so powerful and they will build a relationship throughout their childhood. So you're doing lots of things by using a three-step plan. You're doing emotional literacy. You're allowing that emotion to settle quicker.

And so they're in a calm spot. And you're giving a very powerful message about your family's ethos to managing emotions and relationships. So with step three, you said, take yourself out of the room, but stay emotionally connected. Can you just explain, because do you mean that he still sees me? So I'm like physically there, or do you mean that I totally leave the room? And is it like a sort of, so for example, like last night, funny enough, it was over chocolate. We made a really awful mistake of giving out chocolate for night funny enough it was over chocolate we made a really awful mistake of giving alf chocolate for easter thinking it was a treat and he now knows the word

he goes cocoa cocoa so even even actually this morning he goes cocoa cocoa so even though he's not had it since easter he wants this chocolate i mean who can blame him so that's why he was pulling my hair yesterday i think just like because he wanted this cocoa. And so would I say, Alfie, you are feeling angry now. Like no pulling mummy's hair. It hurts mummy. And then I put him down and I say, mummy is going to sit over there because you can't pull mummy's hair because it hurts. And then I go sit somewhere else. And then I go sit somewhere else and then what, ignore him? And for how long? I mean, I think it's not even about ignoring him. It's about, you know, I like the way you've done that little explanation. I would just give him

one explanation and that's it. I think you're feeling angry. He might not even be able to hear it hurts when you pull mummy's hair, but I think that's an important part of the puzzle. when you pull mummy's hair, but I think that's an important part of the puzzle. And I think just stay with him. If he starts to get physical with you, then I would perhaps move out of the room, but still stay. I think you're feeling angry. I'm stepping outside. So you can be alongside. Now, most toddlers will really calm down pretty quickly in that instance. We know the sort of mean kind of length of a meltdown is only a few minutes, actually. And so it can feel a bit overwhelming as a parent the first time you see that because it's a sort of state that your baby hasn't been in before. But if you walk away from it as almost

as if you are frightened of it, you're also giving another message, right? We all get angry sometimes. We all have meltdowns sometimes. We all wish we had chocolate when it was, you know, it's all right. That's what human beings are. So actually sitting in the room, if you can, saying, I think you're feeling angry, but a really low key way. And if you see a change in his demeanor and he got a bit slightly, probably a wee bit defeated, if he knows that, you know, the chocolate isn't coming, say, I think you're feeling fed up now. And that is really powerful. It actually will mean that by naming it, he's feeling calmer and more settled. I think where parents sometimes feel sort of complicated or they're not sure what to do

is when it gets physical. And no parent needs to sit in a room and be hit or kicked or anything like that. So that's a point that you could maybe step outside the room or be alongside and just say, I'm not going to be. Maybe if you've got a stair gate, be on the other side of the stair gate and say, look, you're feeling irritated. You're feeling angry. You're kicking out. I'm stepping to one side. All the while being calm, all the while almost modeling this, bring it on. I love you, whoever and whatever you do, I love you. And I'm not. This is almost you know modeling this you know bring it on I love you whoever and

whatever you do I love you and I'm not this is what you're modeling but I'm not having a long conversation about it and I'm not telling you four or five times why I'm stepping away I'm telling you once and then you know allow those emotions to settle so all you want to do as a preschooler is let them know that a the emotion has a name and B, you're not going anywhere and C, things don't change because of a meltdown. Welcome to Paranormal Activity with me, Yvette Fielding, a brand new podcast bringing together people's real ghost, extraterrestrial and paranormal stories, as well as getting some inside details from those who study the supernatural. I'll be listening through your paranormal stories every week and try to understand them,

as well as chatting about my own encounters with an occasional paranormal investigator too. You can find us wherever you get your podcasts from, including Apple Podcasts, Spotify and Acast. Just search for Paranormal Activity with Yvette Fielding. So what do you think about, for example, a conversation Tommy and I have a lot is because he will say, Alpha, you're being naughty. And I say, oh no, he's not being naughty. For example, I don't know if he's throwing his food on the floor. No, no, he's not being naughty. Or I almost, he always says I'm going to be that

parent at school gates when I find out from the teacher that Alpha's been misbehaving. I'll be like, well, maybe you weren't paying attention or maybe he, but can we say you're being naughty? Like, for example, if he hits me or if he throws his food on the floor, or do we have to kind of presume that maybe they're teething and they're in pain? I mean, it's a good hypothesis to say, are they teething? Are they in pain? All those things might be true. I think a really good kind of rule here is describe what you want to see. So, you know, we don't throw food on the floor. OK, we don't pull hair. So you're letting them know how to come back from this. Because if you say you're naughty, it's a signal that you're not pleased, but I don't quite know if I'm a

toddler, what I should do next. So if you give him advice about how to get back, that would be really, and you know, he may not always take it, but what you are doing is giving him a very clear signal that this is, this is what I want from you and model it. There what you are doing is giving a very clear signal that this is what I want from you and model it. There is nothing more powerful you can do as a parent than model it. So if you are a parent who throws food on the floor, I'm sure you're not. That's what you're going to get. But, you know, so modeling it. And so, you know, not shouting at each other, for example, being kind to the dog in front of the dog, all those things are giving really powerful examples

of where Alfie should be in terms of his kind of behavior but the really good clear concrete advice you know if you say to a child be good many times they don't really know what that means be really specific so I'd like you to keep your bottom on the seat while you eat your apple you know that's really good and then when they do say, I'm really pleased you listened to what I said because you kept your bottom on the seat while you kept your apple. Not that it matters if they're walking around, but you know what I mean? You're keeping it really specific, telling what to head for. And when they do it, say, I'm so pleased about that. And actually we know from brain science that reinforcing what has gone well moves behavior along much more frequently and much more powerfully than telling off for things that are going badly. That's so interesting, isn't it?

I think that's what I did with my dog who's just lying behind me. I always, every time he went for a wee outside, I'd be like, wow, that's amazing, Sue. Like, good boy, Lou. But it's funny because then with Alf, I mean, sometimes I bore myself that I'll be like, good boy that's amazing, Snoop. Like, good boy, Lou. But it's funny because then with Alf, I mean, sometimes I bore myself that I'll be like, good boy, good boy, good boy. And I'm like, I need to think of something else to say than good boy, because what does good boy mean? But he will love that.

And it's so great you're saying that. You could go into the advanced level and say, good boy, I'm really pleased or I'm really delighted. You know, you patted the dog. What a lovely thing to do. So you're showing him what is specifically he's doing because all he wants to do is please you, right? A toddler, that is what they are driven towards doing. So if you can unpack that and really specific what they say and what they do in order to, you know, aspire to the greatness that Alfie can be, then that will really help him get on his journey

and that's such a simple thing to do as well isn't it like tell is when you say it it's obvious like of course if you say good boy like tell them why they're good what they've done that is good that they understand but look it's all a process you know these things and it's a habit it's a good habit to get into it's great and actually but like I said right at the beginning honestly there are lots of things and any one of us at any point in any day could improve and do other things. But if we do our best, that's all you can ask for. Is there anything that we should not do during a toddler meltdown? What things should we avoid? What the old fashioned ideas of having time out were getting at is that if you positively reinforce a meltdown with attention

or a change in your strategy, you are more likely to have it happen in the future. So your attention and our parents' attention, whether that's saying you're naughty or whether it's saying you're, you know, whatever you're saying is actually very, very powerful reinforcement. So even if you're saying, I don't want that, I'm picking on pulling your hair because it's the example you gave me, but you know, that's very naughty. I don't like you doing that. This is not going to happen. You're not going to the park. Talking about it actually is not a good idea because that reinforces the idea that your attention happens immediately after they have this meltdown. So make it really boring for them in terms of your emotional reaction. So that's keeping it calm and labeling it. But that is all very low key, right? Very low

key. What you certainly should avoid doing if you possibly can in any circumstances, of course, these are ideals, is if there's a meltdown about going somewhere or getting something, try not to change your strategy. Now, look, you can also say pick your goals. So if, for example, it's a school uniform, that often is a point at which these meltdowns happen. So there might be a point at which you can get into a routine which you're not allowing a meltdown to change the strategy, but you come to a negotiated kind of agreement with the school and so on. I think giving in terms of what not to do

or what to avoid is giving it attention. So either positive or negative tension and changing your strategy that is contingent on a meltdown. And sometimes those meltdowns will get worse as you don't change your strategy. So let's say, you know, I want a bit of chocolate and you say, we're not having chocolate today. The emotional tone might go up. Don't worry about that. That's

something, you know, that's just, you know, if you don't have the words to say, I really would like a bit of chocolate, perhaps all you've got in your portfolio is ramping up the emotion. So it might get worse before it gets better. And that's okay. And again, it really comes back to that emotional literacy idea that you can have a meltdown. That is something that you will have. And I still love you. It's not going to freak me out. I'm not going to run away from it. We all have these sorts of emotions. And actually, that's what you're conveying if you're doing this low-key three-step strategy. You're not condoning it.

You're not saying this is ideal way, but you are recognizing this is part of toddler life and you're helping them understand what these really powerful feelings are because they've never had them before. You've never seen them before when they start and they've never had them before. So our job as the grown-up is to help them organize those confusing feelings. When you say don't change strategy, not to shame my parents, because I know that they were parents in a very different generation.

And obviously, as all parents, they do their best. But I remember probably one of my earliest memories is my mom saying, put your shoes on. And obviously, I didn't want to put my shoes on or I was being difficult and putting them on the wrong feet or whatever it was. And eventually she was like, right, I'm going. And she went out the house and got in the car and drove off. And I remember banging on the window being like, I'll put my shoes on, I'll put my shoes on. She'd obviously arranged for one of

her friends or someone to come into the house. But there was a period where I was like, I really want to go, I'll put them on. And obviously obviously in her mind it was very much like i need to teach her if she does this then she's not going to get to go out or i think there was another time i think there might have been a theme park or something called camelot i lived up north but i just remember camelot being this like i never went because i think i must have had a tantrum about something i can't remember what so we didn't get to go. And I still, I mean, I remember it because I'm still furious that we never got to go to Camelot. So would that be something about changing the strategy or is that different?

Because that's almost teaching someone that if they misbehave, they don't get the nice thing. Here's what I'm going to say. I can imagine going to a themed park was high stakes, excitement for you. Maybe it costs a lot of money. So maybe your parents were thinking, right, this is a big day. We've all got to have a really good time. So if I was being super, super planning as a parent, I would say that this is going to be quite an emotional day. So putting your shoes on, maybe you're worried about what you're going to

wear. Maybe you thought about it because it was a big day. So I wouldn't go to a situation where the choices were we go or we don't go because you're climbing down from a meltdown is going to happen sometimes, but you want to not, ideally you would circumnavigate that and say, okay, so if it was about your shoes, let's say, right. You might have noticed in the past because you've kept your diary on step number one, that emotional days or going out is going to be a trigger point. So plan the day before, right? What are you going to wear? Give choices where you can. Here are two pairs of shoes. Which ones would you like to wear? So you're giving your toddler control, although you're actually, you know, you've got the context in hand. I think saying, if you don't put your shoes on, then we're not going, it sets you all up to a pretty emotionally volatile... It's not got

win-win quality all over it, hasn't it? Because if you have a meltdown and you're upset, and of course your parents probably wanted to take you to the park. I would try not to set something up. So you say, you've got to do this or we don't go. I would say, right, plan around that. And a meltdown is not ideal. And say, we're going to get in the car and, you know, let's say we're going to get in the car. I'm going to sit there. And then while you calm down, we're going to listen to some music or whatever. And then when you are calm, we will start the journey towards the park or whatever. So you're trying to dislocate the idea of a meltdown with getting what you want, but you're also helping scaffold that because I imagine there was lots of intense emotions in that day. You still remember it now, right? So it must be one of these flashbulb memories that we often have that are very emotionally intense. And as you say, and I love the way that you are giving your parents a break as well, because things have moved on so significantly. Every generation gets the benefit of more expertise, more science. So it's

not about blaming the last generation. It's about being lucky that we have these additional frameworks to work from, I think. I also think I was just incredibly stubborn. I probably didn't want to put my shoes on because I was being told to put my shoes on. Probably like you said, having the option. So I felt like I was in control. Another example, which I think I'd love to pick your brains on, because I remember on Sunday spending hours sat at the table because I wouldn't eat my peas or my vegetables, whatever it might be. So my mum would say, you're not getting down until you've eaten them. And I remember, I must've been like four or five, really young. I remember thinking, bring it on. Let's see who wins this battle. And I remember, I was like, I will not eat these peas. I will

die on this table. I'm not moving. And so it would always get to a point after, I don't know, it probably wasn't four or five hours because obviously in a child's world hours seem longer but I it felt like I was there all afternoon until my mum just gave up and she was like right go to bed then but then in my head I was like I have won the war bring on next Sunday and I'll win again but how would you navigate that because I imagine that's going to be something I experience with Alf at the moment I'm lucky that he eats everything but if there is a day where he won't eat do i just do i take it to war or do i just say okay he doesn't like peas so therefore

i'll offer him something else i mean i think in terms of you know in toddlerhood a battle of wills is unlikely to end well right because you've got a toddler who is out of control, but wants control. And you've got a parent who's trying to figure out how to stay in charge and allow as much flexibility as possible. So I think saying eat your peas or stay there all night, again, it's a standoff. I think there's got to be a way of climbing down with dignity a bit here. And we know that toddlers do go through a fussy phase precisely because they get very interested in the sensory experiences in their mouth. So some textures suddenly become really difficult for them. And actually, it's quite difficult for them to, for example, something that's got bits in it, they might suddenly say, I'm not doing that.

So a yogurt that's smooth is okay, but a yogurt with bits in it suddenly gets spat out. That's a real experience for them. Now, what they've got to learn is that they can't choose what they eat all the time. But you also might want to think about whether there might be something underneath it. Is there something in their choice of foods that's changed? Has their taste changed? As well as understanding the psychological concept, which is I want to have control. And usually the golden rule with that is give them choice. So give them peas and carrots and say, I don't mind which ones you have. You go for it, you choose. And often you'll find that because there's a choice and a sense of autonomy in the

pea choice, then they go for it. So I think setting it up so it's this or a dichotomous choice is often to be avoided if you can in toddlerhood, I would say. That's so interesting. And what are your thoughts on a naughty step? Because is that, you know, like step three, could it be, okay, you're going to have a time out, sit on a naughty step, or is that just a no? okay, you're going to have a time out, sit on a naughty step, or is that just a no? I would go with step three instead of a naughty step if you can, because what you are doing is sort of setting them socially apart and saying you've done something wrong rather than saying, come in and let's describe the feeling that you've got. Now you're not saying, yes,

you can have the chocolate or yes, you can do what you want. What you are saying is these are the emotions that you're having. And when they've calmed down, which they will do much more quickly if you're alongside them, then you can think about, you know, star charts or something, you know, or, you know, something that toddlers really love so that you get more of the behavior that you want. So while I don't want parents to feel very concerned if they've used a naughty step or timeout, it is still understood in the sort of expert community, if you want a better word, as something that does have some effectiveness. But I think where science is moving on is the idea of being by yourself and shamed when you have a meltdown as a toddler

doesn't actually teach emotional as a toddler doesn't actually teach emotional literacy. It doesn't actually teach anything other than I've done a bad thing and not really knowing, sort of coming back to what we were saying earlier, not really knowing what that feeling is, not really knowing how to get back, what's the next step forward. And they can only sort of think about that once everything is calm. So I would encourage step three, but I think in terms of what the science tells us, I would say. So interesting, isn't it? Because you're right, if you're teaching a child that when they're angry or sad or frustrated, and if that's naughty, then they learn just to kind of

have those feelings and not communicate them, which is why I suppose you have so many people, myself included, who find it really hard to communicate as adults, because we've probably been told like, I shouldn't feel like this, or I don't want to express myself in this way. You have hit the nail on the head, because those individuals who can discuss those negative emotions like sadness, anger, frustration, anxiety, are more likely to have positive mental health. So we know that might be for a number of reasons, but actually if we suppress those emotions and not name them, now we're not saying act them out. What we're doing is saying out loud, I feel sad or I feel anxious rather than allowing those

emotions to leak out in terms of our actions. So as soon as you can name it and discuss it and think it through with a trusted other, you're actually allowing your emotions to go through a process. If you suppress them, you might have anger issues or you may become depressed. I don't mean you, I mean one would. Again, I don't want people listening to worry if they're not somebody that finds easy to say, I feel worried or I feel anxious. But it's something to aim for. You can start today and say, look, I'm feeling, I'm talking about those negative emotions. But if you have that as your family culture, if you're from day one with your kid,

that, you know, yeah, we do talk about feeling anxious. We do talk about feeling jealous. We do talk about feeling sad. They learn that it's okay to say it out loud. And then once you say it, once you name it, you don't need to act it out because you've got permission to use your vocal, the vocal conduit rather than acting it out so that's the ideal and again this is about you know this is we're all a work in progress all of

us so so interesting because i remember i think it was when adele brought out her latest album there was this big uproar or discussion let's say around the fact that i think i can't remember the exact words now but she put in this sort of talking audio clip where she says to her son again I can't remember his name I think it's Angelo but she says mummy doesn't feel happy right now or something along those lines and he says I'm sorry mummy or something like that and the idea was that you shouldn't be putting your big emotions on your child like is it right or wrong? But then what you're saying now is actually, is it? I mean, is it a good thing? Because also you don't want a child to almost

feel like they're mothering you, surely, because then... Absolutely. And it's a really good question because it's a bit of an art. So you do not want to allow your child to feel unsafe because you're out of control, right? So if you were very, very panicky or very tearful, for example, in front of your young child, that would be quite frightening for them. It might happen because that's what life is, but that's something that you would try not to have happen in their immediate sort of eyesight or earshot. But that's different from saying, I'm feeling a bit anxious today because I've got a long list of things to do. So that is just quite matter of fact, and that doesn't have to feel scary.

But you also have to make a choice about how much you share, how often you share. And you have to be very clear in your mind, you're the grown up. They are not your carer and it's not up to them to make you feel better. This is about you communicating as an adult to help them learn that everybody has negative emotions. This is not about you saying, I feel anxious or sad in order for them to fix that. Those are two very different things.

Take your emotions and all the messiness that is the human condition to your partner, to your grown-up friends and lay it all out. As far as your child's concerned, it's just about letting them know that that these emotions happen sometimes it's not about asking them to fix it yeah especially when you start to learn about things like attachment style and if you are like a caregiver for your parents but i feel like that's a really clear differentiation of i wouldn't go to

alpha i'm so sad because i didn't want him to you need to hug me because I'm sad because then he's suddenly like feeling like he has to like regulate my emotions but he will want to hug you if you're sad and that's that's okay I mean it's something that we talked about it's actually the book that I that I most recently wrote which is how to have incredible conversations with your child and it's for kids in primary school age, essentially all the way up to even adults. I use this book with adults, but actually what it does is it really scaffolds as if I'm in the room with my co-author and I with you and your kid together. And it allows parents and kids to have these conversations,

both these difficult conversations like, how do you feel? Or how rubbish do you feel? When do you feel anxious? What do you do? And it's very carefully scaffolded so that it gives parents confidence to have these conversations, even the tough stuff. And it's kind of set up in a way, and of course, nobody who's listening can hear it, but I can show you here on the camera. It's kind of set up in a way that there is some stuff on one side of the page for parents to read and think about. And then there's a kind of area on the other side of the page for primary school age kids to draw or write or scribble on or whatever. And we use lots of kind of concrete metaphors because that's the first way that kids can start to learn about emotion. So for example, I've got here mood mountain. So they use a picture of a mountain to say how they feel, top of the mountain or right down in the pit, right? And then you can say, where do you

feel today? Where did you feel yesterday? When was the last time you were in the pit? So you can start to talk about these difficult concepts with some structured support. And you can do this over and over again. And it's really something that, you know, we're talking about this as a skill that you're learning. Parents will gather confidence as they go through and not to feel that they should be able to have these conversations with great sort of fluidity the first time you do it. It won't go like that because life's not like that. But this is about practicing communication, talking about positivity as well as the tough

stuff. So it's a really, really important skill to learn while understanding those boundaries. Wow. It's so interesting. I feel like you don't realize how much becoming a parent makes you grow as a person as well. Like you basically have to become like psychologist, nutritionist, all of the experts to try and like raise a child. And I think the crowd is totally oblivious to any of this, but I'm going to put a link as well below in the blurb to your book. So it's called How to Have Incredible Conversations with Your Child.

And I imagine it's got lots on there around communication. It's all about communication. There's a little bit about mindset, but much of it is about doing these exercises together. I actually started it because in my clinical work, I would do these little drawings. And in fact, that's actually not true. The very beginning of this book was doing this with my kids. And I had so many little bits of paper with their scribbles and ideas about how they felt. Did I keep them? No, I didn't. Do I wish I had? Yes, I do. So there's a little bit of this book about allowing you to gather together these really heartfelt ideas and conversations and have them forever. And actually you can do

them over and over again throughout childhood. The publisher lets you download as many as you like if you buy the book. And actually what I said to you earlier, this is not about selling the book, it's selling the idea you can do on a bit of paper. Just think about how to communicate and connect with your kid and drawing is a really good way of doing that because it's active and it's concrete, and drawing is a really good way of doing that because it's active and it's concrete it's physical as well and preschool and school-aged kids love that medium my like sort of final question to you it is another example that i've thought of but i feel like it helps what what would happen so for example alf tends to have his big emotions are we allowed to say tantrum by the way is that kind of an outdated term now?

Well, it's interesting. The old scientific literature uses the word tantrum. Some parents really don't like it. I think in some ways you do you. I think meltdown's quite good because I think it describes what you see in front of you. I don't think there's a particular, I think if that's the description that you use in your family, I think that's okay. So let's say Alf is having these meltdowns. It's never like say just before he eats, but it's when I want to change his nappy. He loves his nappy being off. But obviously this is a totally non-negotiable thing. And I would kind of not want to do step three until the nappy's on because then he might wee everywhere. How do you deal with the emotions when actually you just need to put the nappy on? There's no negotiation on that. And I'm not waiting five minutes to put the nappy on

because you might wee. Yeah. And I think that's fair enough. There are some things that just have to be done. I mean, again, two questions I might have in terms of a sensory experience. Is there something about the nappy that suddenly feels uncomfortable? Because toddlers do tend to be very sensitive to these sensory experiences. So if you've changed a nappy brand or suddenly he's had a growth spurt and it just feels a bit different, he might want to whip it off. But also the other thing is about maybe about choice, maybe get two nappy brands and say, which one are you going to wear today? So that he's got the sense of autonomy again. And I think you do also have to be a bit pragmatic. Sometimes, for example, pull-ups can make a toddler feel very sophisticated and rather fabulous. Thanks

very much. So it could be that even changing that to allow him that sense of control, which we know is one of the big drivers, might help him. And yes, he's got to be in a nappy. Otherwise, it might get quite complicated. I think it's time for me to change to some pull-ups. Or you can use the option, would you like the pull-ups? Yeah, even better. The normal nappy. Jane, thank you so much. Honestly, I've absolutely loved chatting to you.

And hopefully people listening are like, even maybe not more confident, but at least I'm excited to try the tools and just to even like understand a little bit more of the science about what's going on in his little world or big world i should say a little brain in a big world say thank you i really really appreciate your time delighted and just be patient stay with it and it will happen if you can do that. But it's been really lovely and so thank you for having me and all your questions have been really fabulous. Really enjoyed it.

Oh, good. And I'll probably have you back in a decade being like, I thought the toddler years were hard. I need you now. Thanks so much for listening to Mum's the Word, the parenting podcast and as always, all the usual stuff that makes me feel like an influencer.

But don't forget to hit the subscribe or follow button so that you don't miss an episode i'll be back same time same place next week and as always if you do want to get in touch you can do that if you leave a review on apple podcast that's a really good way for us to see them you can email askmumsthewordpod at gmail.com but thank you so much and I'll see you next week