Mum's The Word! The Parenting Podcast - Dysfunctional Families - with Harriet Shearsmith

Episode Date: March 18, 2024

On This Week's Mum's The Word:Georgia Jones is joined by Harriet Shearsmith from the Unfollowing Mum Podcast to chat all about dysfunctional families They'll Discuss:Why a fractured parent child-relationship is a difficult cycle to get out of?The importance of having boundariesWhy therapy has the ability to bring everything out?Get In Contact With Us:Do you have a question for us? Get in touch on our Whatsapp, that's 07599927537 or email us at [e-mail] for Listening---A Create Podcast Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Hello and welcome back to Mum's The Word, the parenting podcast. I'm Georgia Jones and I'm your host for this week. So this week, what's happened to me in the world of parenting? Well, I actually, and I'm not sure what you guys are going to think about this, me and Coops have come to a little arrangement because every now and again he helps me film my content and he loves it he enjoys doing it I decided that maybe it would be a good idea to start teaching him the ways of the world how that when you work you are normally get paid so I decided what I would do was whenever he helped me I would give him a little bit of money to put in his piggy bank. Now, I think this is a really, really good idea, but I would be so, so interested to

know your thoughts on this, whether you guys do anything similar or whether you think it's an absolutely terrible idea. I would love to know your thoughts. So give us a little message right in the comments below the reel of this episode and let me know what you think. So today's guest on Mum's The Word is Harriet Shaysmith. Harriet is a mum of three, a star on social media, the author of Muminy and the host of her own podcast Unfollowing Mum. Give it a listen. In the book she celebrates the fact that we are human, that nobody gets it right first time and shares parenting hacks for making a busy life easier every day. Her podcast often deals with hard-hitting issues, toxic family and dysfunctional dynamics, talking to experts but often drawing on her own life

experiences. Harriet, welcome to Mum's The Word. Hi, thank you for having me. Lovely to have you on. Now, what people might not know is that me and Harriet actually went to school together. We did. We did. We've known each other for a very, very long time. I think, were you a year above me? I was. I was, yes. And it was so funny. I saw Harriet at an event. This was a good few years ago. was like oh my god hi I was like we we know each other and she was like yeah we both do the same thing now we did and it was I can't even remember what event it was but there's been a few since and every time we're like house home house family what's happening here so yeah it is yeah so Harriet still lives back in my hometown where my mum and dad still live.

So it's really weird. I'm feeling like the Yorkshire vibes coming through the screen. They're pulling you back. They're pulling me back. It's really weird because Cooper's actually with my mum and dad at the moment in Yorkshire. He's like down the road from you right this second. How weird is that? That is really bizarre.

It will literally be round the corner from where I am. And yeah, it's such a small world that you don't realise. I know everybody says that it's so cliche. And you're like, it's a small world, but it really is. It really, really, really is. So let's get on to you and talk about you and what you do and the incredible work you do in this industry because it's slightly different actually to what a lot of kind of mum parenting social media accounts do

and you talk about a lot of the hard-hitting stuff actually with first-hand experience right so kind of not having that relationship with parents so you don't have one with your mum do you? No. And you talk about toxic families kind of dysfunctional families and what I think is amazing of what you do is you make it all kind of okay and you kind of like make it understandable as well make it easy for people to understand why it might not necessarily be healthy to remain in a toxic family relationship. So tell us a little bit about, you've got a podcast, does your podcast focus on this quite a bit? Yeah, so my podcast Unfollowing Mum is specifically for people who have experienced that childhood trauma or or perhaps experiencing estrangement,

if that's something that's currently in their life, or if they're navigating toxic and dysfunctional family dynamics. Because the thing is, estrangement isn't necessarily going to be the answer for everybody, isn't necessarily going to be a case of I'm cutting ties and that's what works for me. And I think that that has to be okay. But it's such a taboo topic that's so shrouded in so much shame and so much gaslighting from years and years of being in a dysfunctional family unit where we don't talk about it. We don't acknowledge the impact that that has on us as parents and on how we want to be different. And even people who are in a great place now with their parents and whose parents have taken

accountability and acknowledged, you know, I made mistakes, which we will all make, but I made big mistakes when you were a child and I want to repair our relationship. They still don't have that healthy blueprint of how do I now break the cycle? And this could be a cycle of trauma. It could be a cycle of, well, grandma did it and mum did it and great grandma did it and, or dad did this and this happened. So it's really important that we open up the conversation around this. And that's what the podcast focuses on and sharing those real life stories, because I think there's a lot I'm a qualified coach and a trainee therapist I think there's a lot out there from the professional point of view

which I can offer but not so much from those personal lived experiences because people don't really talk about it no they don't and I totally agree with you like I said to you earlier on before we started the show you're one of the few people I see online actually talking about it and it's I think it carries a lot of weight as well because you have experiences of it so it's not just you as a professional going you know these things can happen you're like this happened to me and I want to share this with you so I can help you guys if any of you are going through it but But what I'm really intrigued to know from you is obviously growing up, you might not have been aware of it initially because as a child, you don't realize things. We're not fully developed mentally yet, which is where a lot of the issues

come from because we are learning everything from all the outside world, which is predominantly parents. And, you know, the people that are closest to us, the people that are the ones that should be nurturing and looking after us. So at what point did you have like your light bulb moment and go, my relationship with my mum isn't healthy? my relationship with my mum isn't healthy when I had kids and this is something that yeah when I had kids and this is something that I experienced across the board with people who have experienced either a toxic family dynamic with a parent specifically if they were like me who was very what we would call enmeshed which is where if you'd have asked me 10 years ago I'd have said my mum was my best friend right you know we had big girly days out together we did everything together and I think you might remember you worked in a beautician's for a period of time yeah and we used to come in

and it would be me and mum having days together but that was. I didn't actually, if I look back, have any friends. I had me and my mom. And that was very much by design of this really enmeshed relationship with her that was very codependent, very everything had to be done her way, which was really difficult to break out of. And so many people have this idea of, oh, we're just really close, but they don't really have their own identity outside of this. And that's when it becomes really problematic. So I started to notice that when I had my own kids and I would reflect on things and think, that happened to me when I was a child and I wouldn't do that to them. And that's one of the biggest questions. It's something that I say to clients and people

that I speak to within the community all the time. If you look at your own child and you ask yourself, okay, what if it was them that was experiencing that? Does that feel acceptable? Does that feel bad? Does that feel like something you would want for them as a parent? And invariably the answer is no. God, that wasn't okay. And that's kind of when the light bulb moment comes on is when you realize your own children, you wouldn't want them to go through that experience. Yeah. And what were the kind of telltale signs that things weren't quite as a parenting relationship should be? For me, it was very much when I started to branch away and get some of my own identity. So wanting to do things myself, wanting to question things that my mum would have,

but could be her political beliefs, could be her behaviours and wanting to actually pull away from that and have my own identity. So for example, I never went to university because I couldn't possibly have left my mum on her own. That just wouldn't have been okay. That isn't normal. No. That isn't normal to create that level of codependency. Did she put that on you? I never moved away. Did she say to you, I don't want you to leave me?

Interestingly, it was never so much around university it was much more subtle than that which I think is where it can be quite difficult but I remember when I wanted to move out of my family home which I'm in right now I bought that house and built an annex for my mum to live with us so I remember when I wanted to move out of that and go and just you know go fly the nest do my own thing as is the norm that's what we're preparing our children to do that was you can't leave me don't leave me on my own and there was that real feeling of owing and having a debt to repay to my mum which when you unpick it we do quite often as society put that kind of what after everything I've done for you and be grateful to me when our children don't

really owe us anything no I remember um it was my husband he won't mind me saying this I remember when he was having therapy about his dad who who left and um they a therapist had said to him you didn't choose to be born so don't let them put that on you you weren't choose to be born. So don't let them put that on you. You weren't chose to be brought into this world and for them to be your parents. So they then can't make you feel guilty that they're looking after you. It is a parent's job to bring up their child and look after them and protect them

from everything they need protecting from. But then they can't turn around and go, but I did this for you. So now you owe me. Yeah, which is so common. And that's the thing is there is a real kind of, especially within societies where we have a more collective attitude towards relationships, there's such a toxic mentality of you owe me because I did this. And when you really unpick it, what you're saying is you owe me for your very existence.

And that just doesn't work. That's not a healthy dynamic. Our children don't owe us anything. They don't owe us a debt of gratitude. They don't owe us any kind of, they don't owe us a relationship. They don't owe us anything. We do owe them. And that's the difference. We chose to have them. We chose to keep them. We chose to raise them. So we do owe them those things, but they don't owe us. And that's the thing that's quite difficult to wrap your head around, especially if you've been in that toxic dynamic, is that it's not really a reciprocal relationship in the way that other relationships will be. It's the same as when we think about a best friend relationship, which is very much what I would have described my relationship with my mum as being that's not healthy when you have a parent-child relationship because the caring is

not coming both ways it's supposed to be you caring for raising your child doing these things for your child and that doesn't mean that they can't say thank you for breakfast yeah it's not the same thing like're not, I'm not sat here saying your child doesn't have to say thank you when you put their shoes on and they're kicking up a foot. That's not the same thing. But that sense of owing and having a debt,

that's really difficult to unpick. And that's something that is very toxic. Yeah. I remember you talking about like you and your mum like were best friends. I remember when I was little actually, and I didn't understand it at the time my mum said to me oh I don't like it when mothers say that their daughters are their best friends she was like I love you darling and you are my world but you are not my best friend because I am 40 something and you're 13 like you know we're

not best friends we're mother and. And I think it is quite important. Some people might disagree actually listening to this podcast, but I do think it's quite important to have those boundaries of your mother and daughter or mother and son, not best mates, because it is very easy to then slip into, you are my only person in my life and like you said then don't have many friends because all your time is on your parent yeah and that's that's the thing here is and people listening to it that maybe feel a bit confronted by that idea if we look at parent-child dynamics and we look at best friend dynamics they can be quite similar in the way that we look at parent-child dynamics and we look at best friend dynamics they can be quite similar in the way that we look at them but the big difference that you will notice especially if

you're somebody who does feel like hey well no my child is kind of my best friend you know we do everything together we have this wonderful relationship the question that you would then ask yourself is do I lean on my child for emotional support do I lean on my child and talk to my child as I would a best friend about sex, relationships, money issues, problems that I'm having? They're things you would do with a best friend. But that in itself is problematic when you're doing it with a child. Actually, regardless of your child's age, it's problematic. It's what you would term parentification in the psychology world, when you're essentially placing your child in the role of being the parent,

which happened to me an awful lot. I was very much my mum's therapist growing up. In fact, I was very much a stand-in spouse in a lot of senses of the word. And that became really traumatic for me. And it's something that we see very, very subtly across a lot of different dynamics and often very unintentionally but it is something to be aware of yeah you can have a really close relationship you know going to the cinema doing all the wonderful things having the best time and having a really close bond but you're not a best friend because you're not relying on that child to support you emotionally well that's a lot of pressure as well isn't're not relying on that child to support you emotionally. Well, that's a lot of pressure as well, isn't it?

To put on a child, like a little child, regardless of age, really, to take on those responsibilities. Because they are always going to be a lot younger than you because you are the parent. And to put responsibilities like, you know, talking about relationships or money worries or things like that, to put responsibilities like, you know, talking about relationships or money worries or things like that, to give that child all those worries at such like a vulnerable stage of their life is massive and really irresponsible as a parent. It is. And I think sometimes people struggle with the thinking, perhaps it's judgmental and it's not a case of being judgmental. It's a case of looking at what is responsible and was not responsible. You can talk to your children about big topics, but it has to be in an age appropriate way where you hold the responsibility. And that's where the difference lies. So for example, I knew everything that

happened with my parents' divorce from the age of four, everything. And I don't have many memories between the age of four and seven, which is a telltale sign of childhood trauma I don't have many memories I have many memories at all I have really fragmented memories for that period but what I do remember a lot from that period as I got a little bit older was big discussions surrounding divorce proceedings big discussions surrounding what was going on and not in a okay okay, mommy and daddy are getting divorced. This is happening, you know, where you hold the space for your child, but keep them in the loop as it were so that you can keep them informed because that's really important. Any therapist who talks to you going through a separation or a divorce will tell you that it's

very important to talk to your child to keep them informed what we slipped into was where I became the therapist and I became the one who would hold her hand while she was crying about it or who would listen to all of the how terrible daddy was and all the rest of it and we can go down that route far deeper there were lots of other things but it that that's on my podcast go over and listen to harry's podcast about that that's a slightly different anger that maybe goes a bit deeper there but but the difference was it wasn't about me understanding it was about her needing care which in and of itself is quite sad but was also not my responsibility as a child and that's the big thing and and like things like that goodness me they can affect so much of you and like how

you then project yourself onto other relationships right because one of my best friends she's going through well actually she's finally divorced and her little boy is the same age as Cooper and it's Cooper's best friend she's my best mate and um she has been incredible because because I've said to her I don't know how you can't paint the little boy's daddy in such an amazing light still because she does and she talks about him in such a lovely way even though he had an affair and left the family, she still won't ever let Jude know that there is any hatred there. You know, she will cry on her own or cry with me because I'm an adult and I can tear that on, but she won't let Jude know. She will tell him, mummy and daddy just don't love each other anymore. he loves somebody else and that's okay and mummy now loves somebody else but we love you exactly the same and as much as like the dad hasn't gone about things the right way at all and might not be parenting in that way Rose is and I'm

like well done you because you are forming such a good know, future for your little boy because you're not letting this affect him and his childhood. Yeah, and I mean, again, it's what's within the realm of our control and our responsibility. So in your friend's situation there, what dad chooses to do and how he chooses to behave is not something that she can control or what she's responsible for. And that is going to have an impact on how her son grows and on the way that he views the world. Absolutely, it will. And unfortunately, any separation will have an impact.

But how we navigate talking about each other, how we navigate talking to our children about our separation. Like you said, Rose doesn't put that on him that it's his responsibility because ultimately it's not you know adults make mistakes adults get separated adults are idiots at times we all do it yeah but how we navigate that with our children is so important and you know like you say you can talk to a friend know, like you say, you can talk to a friend, you can talk to a therapist, you can talk to whoever else it needs to be, but it shouldn't be your child. No, not in that context. No. So when, you know, when you kind of had your light bulb moment and once you had children, you were like, this isn't a healthy mother daughter relationship. How did you then navigate? Because I think this is something that's important for

people that are listening that might be going, oh my God is me this is me too and don't know how to then deal with it what did you do because it must have been so hard you know because ultimately it was your mum that you'd been best mates with for a long time yeah it was really difficult and what I will say is from when I had my first child through to when I actually ended up cutting contact with my mum was a good, I would say, almost decade. Wow. Wow. It was a really long time of trying and trying.

And this is what I've experienced across the board with estrangement is that it's been a continual attempt of, please, can you change your behavior here? Please, can we do things differently here? Please, can you hear me? Can you validate me? Can you make changes so that we can have this relationship and I can be respected as an adult and constant walls put up, constant, you're just being sensitive, you're just being dramatic. And that's eventually when an estrangement happens. And I will say, and I've said so many times,

when I, so I went through a process of trying to pull away slowly from my mum. And eventually my solution was, if I build her an annex, she will no longer be living in the house with me. We might have a bit of distance. And it made things a million times worse but I was trying to be oh they made things like former Harriet and me have got a lot of beef over the

way that things happened I can see why you did it though in my head that was me yeah in my head that was me being a good daughter me being a loyal daughter and I think if you have this notion of being a good son or daughter or a good loyal daughter, I'd really question that word loyal. I'd really start pulling up that notion of being loyal because there's something under that that's not quite healthy. But to me, that was really like, I must be a good daughter. My mom's all on her own. She won't be able to do the things that she needs. She's told me this. I must be good. And so I built the annex

and I bought the house and I did all these things and eventually it got to a point where it was so toxic that we'd discussed prior to me buying the house and me building an annex what would happen if we chose not to live together anymore and so I asked her to leave and she said no. And that ensued then a legal battle, which was not what we agreed. But that was her way of really trying to dig in and keep contact and to keep control, really. Not so much contact, but to keep control because she openly said she didn't want anything to do with me or my husband or two of our kids, but wanted contact with one and wanted to be able to stay in the very bizarre behavior. It was my eldest, but I noticed a lot of the behaviors that I experienced as a child were, and I hear this again, a lot from people who I've spoken to either in a

client capacity or within the community, the eldest child quite often gets similar treatment to what you got, almost like a do-over. And it's really bizarre behaviour, but it isn't uncommon. Do you have an insatiable fascination with the paranormal. Brace yourself, for the supernatural world is about to reveal all of its secrets on the Paranormal Activity podcast. And who better to guide you through this hair-raising journey than myself, Yvette Fielding, renowned paranormal investigator. Every episode of Paranormal Activity takes you on an unforgettable adventure into the unknown. But that's not all. The true heart of this podcast lies in the stories, evidence and questions shared by our devoted listeners.

Will you dare to join me? Listen to Paranormal Activity with me, Yvette Fielding, wherever you get your podcasts from. Your eldest son had obviously lived through part of you and your mum having a good relationship. So, or, well, what you thought was a good relationship. So maybe your mum actually thought, well, he might believe me. He might kind of go with what I'm going to say. Because he's seen I'm a wonderful mum to my daughter,

because we've had this relationship. So maybe that was like her way of thinking. Who knows? It became really volatile and a really difficult situation to navigate, but one that we had to keep navigating with communication with him, with hearing him, with listening to what he was saying. And actually, funnily enough as soon as my mum had moved out of our annex he divulged a lot more information about the things that she would do which were very similar to what I experienced as a child in terms of really bad-mouthing my partner really bad-mouthing me specifically to him but I think that's what we would consider triangulation within the coaching and therapy world. So it's

pitting one person against each other. So that they're the favorite. Is that it? So that they're kind of top dog. Wow. That's, I mean, it creates that triangle, doesn't it? You've got you who's at the top. These two points don't connect. They don't talk, but both points connect with you. So triangulation. And that's how that works and it really creates that divide and a lot of people that I speak to have experienced that very much with their siblings in that they don't really know why they don't get on with their sibling but they really don't get on with their sibling and then when they look at it they realize that there was always a big competition place between them and their sibling or they were put against

each other a lot and that's very common in these scenarios oh that's so interesting but you know i love i love having people like you on the podcast because i just find it so so incredibly interesting listening to you know how people's brains actually work and how people can manipulate other people in situations like, thank goodness your son found you as a safe space and a safe person to open up to. Because I imagine there's a lot of children that are going through similar things to what you've been through, but they don't feel like they can open up and they don't feel like they have a platform where they can be honest and talk.

So well done you, Harriet, for bringing your boys and your daughter up to know that they can talk to you and your husband, of course. So well done. I think that is one of the most important things is to create that safe space so that he will quite often say, well, I don't want to say anything to mummy. So he also has his other grandparents that he can speak to. He's been made and the other two have been made aware that there are certain points at school where they can speak to people, you know, if they don't feel able.

So creating those safe spaces with safe adults who can hold space for them is really important really important for your children so obviously it when it was you know a decade of like an estrangement process you know and police got involved and all sorts so at what point did you go the end I don't ever want you in my life is that kind of where you're at now have you gone you are gone yeah so that's where I'm at now so I'd originally when I'd asked my mum to move out the annex in my naivety I'd got it in my head that you know once we got some distance we might be able to have what you'd term a low contact relationship where we'd see each other every so often and I'd be able to do this but quite often what people will find is that they're especially when you

have a very enmeshed family is it's all or nothing thinking it's you're either loyal to me and we're a unit we do this everything together or we don't have anything to do with each other and putting those boundaries in place becomes really really difficult so after we'd asked mum to move out and we'd gone through the legal process and all of this was done to make sure that mum was secure as well so that she wasn't just turfed out that she had security financially that she had somewhere to go all of these things that was all taken care of so you're still thinking of her you were still even though you know yeah you were still putting her you know not first but you were putting her of course. You were still, even though, you know, you were still putting her, you know, not first, but you were putting her, of course, second if you were looking after her still.

Trying to do the right thing. Yeah, yeah. And what we got to was a place where it was not safe for me to have contact at all. So I think really after I'd asked her to leave, that was the point at which when the pushback came, as opposed to what had been agreed when we'd signed contracts to make sure we were building an annex properly and all of the rest of it, what had been agreed when that went back on, that was the point at which I realized I'm never going to be able to have this relationship in any kind of healthy way. It's never going to be something that is safe for me, that's safe for

my children. It's always going to be either this is, I'm in charge and I have control and I have dominance over this relationship and you do things my way and you're not respected as an adult with your own autonomy, or I'm going to have to say, we're not going to have contact. And that was how we got to that point. And I do speak to clients who have managed to maintain some kind of low contact relationship where they see each other on holidays. And everybody's idea of low contact as well is completely different, which I've always found really interesting. So for some people, low contact for them might be seeing family once a month and their kids going and seeing them once a week for other people it might be once every five years it's so different depending on the

dynamics that you grew up in but how I reached that point where I just knew we were not going to be able to have a relationship at all was when there was that real pushback against any kind of boundaries that I tried to set right yeah she just didn't want you to have any form of control whatsoever in the situation. And no form of autonomy either. And I think that was no form of autonomy either. And I think that was really important. What does that mean? What do you mean by that? Just having a sense of self, being able to be in control of my own life, being able to have my own life as opposed to it being taken over by my mum and still being that child really that's told what to do, what to think,

what to feel. That's not a position that's healthy for any adult. Did you find it hard kind of transitioning from, because obviously you were in such a toxic, quite dependent relationship with your mum. How did you navigate that huge life change therapy I am big on the therapy great I love that Harriet like more more people online need to talk about how positive therapy is because I'm so positive it makes you realize things that you would never come to without a professional helping you. And yeah, you're a big advocate for therapy online, aren't you? Yes, massively. And I think, you know, if it was accessible to everybody, I'd be saying to everybody, get into therapy, even if you think, you know, I don't need therapy, there's nothing there. It doesn't have to be

anything wrong for therapy. And I think that's a misconception is that we only go to therapy when we're at crisis point, which a lot of us do. But sometimes it's just a way to get a deeper insight into who you are. And I can tell you when I hit 30, I had absolutely no sense of who I was, what I believed in. I was starting to try and get it. But to get to the age of 30 and still not know yourself at all, I think that's something that more people relate to than they're willing to acknowledge and not having that sense of self. And that really helped me to gain that. It helped me to develop who I am as a person, but also who I am as a parent which is really important because I had no healthy

blueprint to fall back on I had no pattern of I want to do this and quite often what we fall into the trap of doing as parents is saying well this was really unhealthy from my parents I'm going to swing like a pendulum to the complete opposite which is where we see people who had really authoritarian parents who were very domineering, very controlling, will swing completely to very passive parents who will allow their kids to do whatever they want. And really what we want is something in the middle where we can say, okay, we're here to allow you to develop your own identity, to have your own freedom. But also we've got some boundaries that come in from the authoritarian side. So we're meeting in a happy middle. And it's really difficult not to swing the other way. If I had a penny for everyone in my community

who says, well, I know how to parent because I just do the opposite of what my parents do. Thinking that's the best way. It's easy to look at, yeah. Yeah. And it's not always. And I think that's it, isn't it? When you grow up with a toxic parent, often one of two things happen. You do like that and go completely opposite way. Or you fall into the same pattern as your parent without even realizing. I think a lot of the time that that is what is happening. Yeah, that happens so often. And I think I was at a real risk of doing that with my eldest child, something that I've talked about before in terms of how I acted as a parent when I first became a parent, because I thought my mum was so amazing, so wonderful. I followed a lot of the things that I thought I should do. And they never felt natural to me. And that's again, that's when those light bulbs started to ping on of, this doesn't feel right.

that's when those light bulbs started to ping on of, this doesn't feel right. And asking yourself, you know, does this feel right to me? Does this feel right in my body? Does this feel right for me emotionally? How am I feeling about this as a parent? Some alarm bells are ringing here. And I know this is what my parents did, but how do I want to do things differently? It can be really powerful. Your gut's bloody powerful as well isn't it i was talking to my therapist about this the other day i think i'm becoming more and more in tune with my gut now because my gut feelings goodness me are strong in certain situations and i'm like i know something's not right here i can feel it in my stomach and i think it was when I found out that it was actually like scientifically connected I was like oh that explains so much like and you know like when something doesn't feel right sometimes people like need to go to the toilet because they've

gone into like flight mode so they need to like rid themselves of everything and I'm like that is incredible that is strong the body is bloody clever at what it does, isn't it? Yeah, the body's absolutely, I mean, it's absolutely bonkers when you think about it. There's your autonomic system, which is like on your nervous system. That's what controls your fight, your flight and your freeze and fawn responses. And so many of them are felt in the body.

So people will describe feeling like a tightness around their throat when they want to speak out, but they can't. They'll have those feelings in your gut, like you say, that kind of tingling in your stomach, and your gut's kind of going, alarm bell. And you think about it, and you're like, that's just an old wives' tale. But it's not. It is scientifically proven. It's what you'd call somatic healing, when we work on those feelings within the body. And that's so powerful, is sitting with those feelings. And something that I actually say to clients who are self gaslighting and saying, I don't know if my childhood was that

bad, or I don't know if this experience was that bad, or if my relationship with this person was that bad, or am I just dramatic? Am I just sensitive? Is when you think about that particular feeling, and you think about that particular experience where do you feel it and how does it feel and so often what will come up especially with fragmented memories that can be quite powerful so often is what will come up is that real feeling that you get of like wanting to go to the toilet or of feeling panicky or of the tightness around the chest they're all big signs that something wasn't right yeah it's incredible and one thing I will say about therapy as well is I think it's very easy if it gets hard want to give up on it because I actually do you know I actually did this yesterday I had therapy yesterday morning and I came home and it was a really I wasn't expecting anything I was like I don't

really know what I'm going to talk about in this therapy session. And I mean, the emotions were flooding. And I got home and I said to Danny later that evening, I was like, I don't feel like I want to go back now because I don't want to keep going and feel like this. Because it's exhausting. And that's what I think people have to prepare themselves with. But actually, like when you really think about it, it super healing and it's nothing's ever easy and it's gonna take like it's gonna take the big emotions for you to then kind of learn about yourself and like realize you know this is why i'm this way and this is why i feel this way about certain things and i can get triggered easily and

you know whatever and it's hard and you might not want to do it sometimes but it's well worth it yeah people often go into therapy or into coaching and they think I'm gonna have a few sessions where I talk about the thing that's put me in crisis and then that's gonna get fixed and I'm gonna feel amazing and so much better and then they'll have that session where they go I don't know what I'm going to talk about today because my crisis is kind of feeling a bit better and they're the really powerful sessions and they're often the ones that someone will go into it and say I don't really know what I'm going to talk about and then everything comes up yeah and you come out of it feeling a million times worse and you think I don't know why I bothered yeah that was horrible yesterday why did

I do that like yeah and it's the weirdest thing because you think to yourself I don't really I'm I don't need therapy I'm fine yeah I'm healed I've done this I'm totally cool like I'm yeah completed it and then you go in with that that session where you really don't know what you're going to talk about and everything comes up and that's so so common and therapy is hard work it's a bit like going to the gym for your mind think of it that way yeah and you do feel tired very tired after you've had therapy like I was exhausted yesterday I was like I just feel like really emotionally drained I need a nap yeah yes yeah good after therapy yeah after therapy nap what I did want to ask you as well with obviously, you know, making that decision to cut contact with your mum.

How was it for the kids and how did you navigate that with your children? Yeah, that is a big question and it's a big one for so many people. So initially we'd made the decision that we were not going to cut contact for the children, that the kids would be able to, you know, have some kind of relationship. And then my mum's behaviour towards them became really quite toxic, like sitting down with my then five-year-old and saying, you need to help me look for a house because mummy's throwing me out. Oh, no.

This kind of thing. So we were like, that's going to be a no. Yeah. So what we did was we'd gone for a walk and I remember the kids they will kids will ask you the best questions and they they don't pull their punches and I remember the kids saying to me what's going on with mom or is what they called her not grandma and I said to them you know okay look she's going to be moving out because that's what's best for all of us and they said well are we going to be able to see her and I said I'll be completely honest with you at this moment in time I don't know

and what I made sure to do was to explain to them in a very child appropriate way what was happening yeah without bad mouthing and I think that's one of the biggest key things was her behavior is not very kind towards me at the minute and I don't feel like I am particularly kind when I am around her and that's not healthy for me so I have to think about what's best for you guys and what's best for us as a family and that's going to be to not have her in our lives at the moment that's an incredible way of saying it I mean it beats saying you know she's awful yeah yeah she's horrible she's a bit of a dick your grandma yeah she's just a bit of a dickhead it was true and it was fair and it was accurate because I don't feel that my behavior was great

when I was around my mum either I think I don't feel like I was able to be the best version of myself because we're constantly defensive constantly waiting for her to shout at me across the dinner table in front of the kids or to have to challenge something because of her behavior. And that's not a healthy way for anyone to live. And I want my children to understand that regardless of who someone is, you don't have to have them in your life. And something that a lot of people find a pushback with is people will say, you're teaching your kids to cut off their parents and it will happen to you and my response to that is I'm teaching my kids to cut off toxic people and if my behavior is toxic they have every right to cut me off yeah and that's going to be really hard but that will

be for me to work on myself and to be accountable for that exactly because you wouldn't want that to happen to the point where if anything like that happened in your head you could go well I need to change which is where your mum didn't didn't so she didn't have there's no accountability yeah and that's where the no ability for that no the other thing I wanted to ask you, because where we grew up, sorry, and where you still live is a really small town. And our town, you know, everybody talks. That's what happens in small towns. Like, how did you deal with that as well? I've often wondered this, Harriet.

Like, was there a lot of gossip? Was, like, did you see your mum all the time? Like, accidentally? Yeah, not terribly often um not terribly often to be fair I did have in the very beginning a few incidences of kind of people saying I saw your mum and that's where your boundaries have to come in of saying to somebody oh okay well I don't need you to tell me that right I'm not really you know I'm not really interested I hope that she's well I'm not really, you know, I'm not really interested. I hope that she's well.

I'm not really interested in you telling me that and put those boundaries in place. Yes. I'm a big believer in putting boundaries in place. And yeah, there were a few odd comments. I remember going and collecting a takeaway once and the person who worked behind the counter knew your mum from having worked with her years ago. Not like in a close relationship, but just in like a passing kind of hi how you doing and she was what you will find is that people who are in those positions suddenly become like a vehement champion of your parent of you must get in touch

with them extend the olive branch and I'm like if you only knew and I just sort of had to say because every time I was going in to collect any kind of takeaway or just going to get my dinner yeah it would be have you spoken to your mum and in the end I had to say to her I haven't spoken to my mum and I'm not going to be speaking to my mum next week when you ask me either so I am going to ask you to not keep asking me because it's really uncomfortable and whilst I appreciate you might have the best intentions I'm not here for for that. And it's so awkward and uncomfortable. And I think people think that boundaries are quite scary. But setting boundaries is always going to be uncomfortable, but it's worth it for your own peace of mind. And clear, concise boundaries are the kindest thing that you

can do with people. You know, you're letting them know where you can stand, where you stand, and how you want to interact with them. And you want to save relationships and you want to be able to have healthy relationships boundaries are the key to that that's such incredible advice harriet and like honestly i think so many people listening will because there's so many people that will be going through this and people just don't talk about it because they're embarrassed or ashamed or i think they are potentially wrong and it's really important to be vocal about it and let people realize it's not uncommon and it's not wrong to feel a certain way about you know your parent or your auntie or uncle or grandma we are going to have to wrap this up but for people that would love to kind of learn more about you you have a book I do I have my first book my minute which is

out now yes um I have that one I also have the podcast yes I do which is unfollowing mums so you can listen to that and that is very specific to this topic that is what this you know this is what kick-started the whole thing so there are lots of lived experiences on there going across some really hard hitting topics. So do listen to it with care and kindness to yourself because it can be quite heavy listen at times. But that's been a really healing community. I also have the Instagram page that goes alongside that, which is Unfollowing Mum. And then I have my pages, which at the minute are Toby and Rue.

Fabulous. Go give Harriet a follow because honestly, her content is amazing. Even if you're not going through any kind of issues with family, it is still a cracking, cracking pitch to follow. Harriet, thank you so much. You've been incredible and it's just been so informative and insightful listening to you today.

Oh, thank you so much. Thanks for having me. Thanks for listening to mum's the word the parenting podcast make sure to hit the subscribe or follow button so you never miss an episode we'll be back with another episode same time same place next week