Mum's The Word! The Parenting Podcast - Empowering our children to love who they are with Pam Luk.

Episode Date: July 16, 2023

Empowering our children to love who they are with Pam Luk. It’s so important to teach our children to love their body and who they are, one of the biggest parts of this is being mindful about the language we use about our own bodies around them. This week founder of Ember and Ace, athletic wear brand for plus size kids, Pam Luk joins us. We have a fantastic conversation around her own childhood, talking about body diversity and teaching children body positivity. Get in touch with your stories and questions over at askmumsthewordpod.co.uk or on our WhatsApp, that's 07599927537.—A Create Podcast Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

So it's so important to teach our children to love who they are and love their body. And one huge part of that is being mindful about the language we use about our own bodies around them. To talk further on this, we have founder of Ember and Ace, an athletic wear brand for plus size kids. It's Pam Luck. Hi, Pam Luck. Hi, how are you? Thank you for having me. Pam Luck. Hi, Pam Luck. Hi, how are you? Thank you for having me. Thank you for coming on because you are over in the States at the moment. So we're doing this at obviously very different times of the day, but thank you so much for joining us. We're really excited to get you on. How is it at the moment in the States? How's it looking?

I don't think we have time for that conversation. Should we move on? Yes, perhaps. But we just celebrate our independence from you all. So hurrah. Hurrah. And what did you do to celebrate? Anything else?

We were actually in Los Angeles. They have an enormous anime convention called Anime Expo. Oh, right. Yeah. So I spent it with, you know, 20, 30,000 of my closest friends. Amazing. I love that so much. Right. So we want to talk today, obviously, thank you for coming on. As I said, one study has shown that one of the reasons that kids quit sports is because their uniforms and athletic gear, they no longer fit them.

I mean, that is such an awful thing for kids to have to go through at any age. And the fact that there's, you know, sportswear and uniforms that they don't fit into and they feel uncomfortable. You feel uncomfortable anyway, don't you growing up? That's the way you feel. And if the clothes you're putting on to go to school or to, you know, work out aren't fitting, it can make it even worse. So where's this come from? Where, where did your company come from? Where, where did it found from? It all starts with actually my experience. Cause that was my experience. I played soccer, AKA football growing up. And by the time I was in high school,

I struggled to find a uniform that fit. I was the goalkeeper. And so I ended up having to shop in the men's section and got to the point where I'm like, okay, we're into an extra large. And, you know, of course the chest doesn't fit quite right because it's not cut for me. And so, you know, it was just, it was, it's very awkward and difficult to not be able to play a sport that I love. And now you fast forward 30 years and I have a daughter in a bigger body and she loves dance and we're struggling with dancewear. Yeah, of course. Cause I mean, notoriously dancewear is very strappy. It's very unforgiving. I remember I danced as a little one and I remember it always, it always felt as well. You sort of got to the age of about 12 and suddenly it was a bra rather than, you know, thicker straps. It just,

it just all seems completely the wrong thing for any body type. What age were you, were you, when you were having to go into the men's section to do that? 16. 16. Yeah. Which the embarrassment for you as well, like having to go into the men's section and ask must not have been very nice at all. No. And because this is way before online shopping, so I had no choice but to go in person. Right. And so it's, as you said, being a kid or being a teenager in particular is already tough, but this is what I have to do to keep playing a sport that I like. And, you know, it's just awkward and difficult to even try to have that conversation with a coach and so you know I said why are we not solving this this is very solvable so that's why I decided to try to do something about it so I that's when I got the idea to start

the company and sort of went through of course it was right before the pandemic I was gonna say but did that help in a way because the pandemic we all sort of started getting quite sporty. Well, I think we all pretended to, no, there was a bit, wasn't there? There was a bit where we just sat on the sofa and then about sort of, you know, a year in, we went, Oh, I might have to do some exercise or something here. This could go on for a while. So maybe. Yeah. And it was, it was, it helped to some degree. It helped with pattern making and planning and, and, you know, doing some fabric sourcing, but you know, everything was shut down in terms of manufacturing and everything just went so much more slowly, I think.

So you were seeing the need for it there. Did you, you, you put this out online, obviously, and people were coming back saying, this is something we really need and want. Yeah. And it's been interesting because I'm also hearing a lot from adults like me who are just like, oh, if you, where were you, you know, when I was, you know, when I was in school. But luckily the next generation, they get to experience that in a nicer, more positive way. How do we start to talk to our children about body diversity? I think the good news is there's more books now than there were 10 or 15 years ago. And you can start really early by just showing, like I said, there's books that talk about bodies come in

all different kinds of shapes and sizes, and there's no good or bad way to have a body. And I think it really starts there, but I also sort of see it. It's an extension of the conversation around, you know, body autonomy and consent. I really think, right. If your body is private, it's your business and that person's body is not your business. So I think if we can sort of, I'd love to see us move away from talking about bodies in particular, because your kids are always listening. Yeah. Right. So when you comment on that actor who put on 15, 20 pounds, you know, so how are we talking about other people's bodies and let's just stop and your body is private and their body is private. The media doesn't help though, does it? And obviously it's a slightly different world to

the one we grew up in where we had magazines that would, you know, be like, you know, front page, oh my God, so-and-so's got cellulite on the beach. And I remember, I remember growing up thinking, ah, cellulite. I mean, that's the least of any other worries on the planet but like it's so it starts really young doesn't it and watching how others eat and the diet culture i feel like it's got better recently it has got better but there's a there's a lot more work to be done have you seen a change in the last few years online and i think it starts with even there being different media available. You know, even just, you know, social media is sort of, it's somehow simultaneously great and terrible.

But one of the great things about it for me has been following plus size athletes and seeing people with bodies like mine, running marathons and kayaking and surfing and, you know, swimming and doing all the things. And I think it's sort of where if you want to find people in bigger bodies doing these things, you can today. Whereas, you know, 15, 20 years ago, you would never have seen people in bigger bodies, you know, being active and being athletic. And so there are opportunities to sort of show these things to children to, you know, age appropriately, but to, to say, you know, this person is strong and likes to run too, or this person likes basketball like you do. And so there's opportunities now to see where this person likes to go and enjoy themselves and they don't

want to hide away because the shame of it a friend friend of mine messaged uh it was about a month or so ago i'm going on holiday and she said joe i'm just sick of hiding my body like i'm feeling like i have to hide my body like i'm going on holiday it's gonna be hot i'm just gonna wear that dress i'm just gonna do it and i think it's just, it's hard, isn't it? Because it does start so young with us. What can we do as parents to make sure our children love who they are and the bodies that they're in? I would say one of the best places to start is really being honest about how you talk about your own body in front of your children. I think that's really hard. And particularly like you, you talked about how we were raised and the things that we were seeing in the TV and the magazines and, and the messaging,

but I think that's a really strong place to start. And then it's, you know, I think the other piece of this, if we could all sort of learn about is the, the thing is bodies change all the time and you don't always to any degree have control over that. So how can we sort of just learn to move through it? And so, you know, I think it's just, the other thing I would say is we're all sort of still learning. So don't panic if you do or say something, there's opportunities for you to go, you know what, I want to talk about what we were talking about yesterday. And I think a good example of that is if your child calls somebody fat.

Yes. What do we do in that situation? What do we do? The instantaneous response is like panic. Yeah. Yeah. And so I think, you know, in that instance, I would say try to not overreact because what we're all trying to do is, is get to the place where fat is really just a neutral descriptor that some people are skinny and or thin and some people are fat and it doesn't mean all the other things that we try to attach to it. So it can be something as simple as, yeah, bodies come in all different sizes, but let's remember that we don't talk about other people's bodies, right? Because bodies are private. And is that something we do, say you're out and a

child does that and you're slightly mortified because kids notice differences, don't they? They, you know, and they don't always know what, what, you know, that they're being offensive. Do you take that child to one side there? Do you do it in front of the person? Do you wait till you get home? What, and what do you do? What would be your advice? What would you do? I mean, I think there's no perfect answer because I think, but as much as you can, the bigger problem is the mortified reaction. So how can you try to really start with changing your own immediate reaction. I would, you know, if, if you're walking, keep walking, don't stop in front of this poor person, but also, you know, you want to try and do it, I think fairly quickly. But if you can not be

gasping and mortified and really just focus on the fact that bodies do come in all different sizes and we do notice differences, but again, bodies are private. So that's, you know, that person's business and your body is your business and sort of, if you can do it in the moment, it's great. And if you can't, that's fine too. There's always a moment to sit down and go, Hey, do you remember today when we were walking and. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. Store it for later. Maybe like story time, bedtime, something a bit calmer and And just, I think it's, you're right though, it's going in with tools and knowing, because going into any situation and thinking, right, don't overreact if something like that happens. What would you do if you,

if someone calls your child fat? What about if it's happening in school? What advice have we got for children there? That's tricky, right? I feel like our immediate instinct is to go very mama bear and try to protect and fix. And I think if you can, just listen and ask questions and be curious first. And it's obviously different ages. You're going to talk about different things. So somebody said that you were fat at school today. What does that make you feel? What does that word mean to you? I think part of it is just trying to figure out where they are as a starting

point and then move from there and sort of talk about, well, you know, why do you think they said those things? And I think it's, it gets easier as kids get older because I think it's one of those things that maybe we know that people feel is a difficult thing to be in a bigger body. So why do you think they were talking to you and why do you think they have that idea? And do you agree? And, and so I think, you know, when kids are really young, um, it can be tough, but as much as you can to sort of reinforce messaging that your body can do a lot of amazing things. What are some of the things that you can do with your body that make you feel good or that make you feel strong? Um, and sort of try to change

the conversation. And, you know, particularly as kids get older, I think it's what other people's opinions about you are none of your business. And unfortunately, sometimes they feel the need to express them. But I also, you know, is this something that you care about? And I think that's the trickier bit, right? But if this is not someone that you know, or as a friend of yours, well, bye. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. No, you're right. It's hard though. I do think in schools as well that teachers and, you know, caregivers and care assistants in hard though I do think in schools as well that um teachers and you know caregivers and care assistants in schools I remember being in school when I was I was thinking about this earlier and I remember any sort of pee time or anything like that we were all just sort

of herded into the showers male and female but that's another topic for another day too but we were all herded into showers. And I remember feeling really, everybody's bodies were at different stages too. And they just felt like there was no privacy if you wanted it or that anything, you know, it's just, I mean, in some ways that's good because it's everybody just, you know, in there in one go and everything's out there on display.

But in another way as well, it doesn't give that person any sort of privacy and there's no chat in school I feel like they are lacking in the chat that you know there's a lot on sexual health there's a lot on consent as we said and there's a lot on that coming in now and you know fluid fluidity and about gender but I feel like that's still a subject that kind of needs to be tackled and you know one thing at a time they can't do everything I feel like that's still a subject that kind of needs to be tackled. And, you know, one thing at a time, they can't do everything, I guess, but it's something that's been going on for so long. I wonder if there's something that in school can be done.

Yeah. I mean, I think this is where we run into one of the most challenging pieces of this work, I think, is that there's still a lot of people that believe that you can't be in a body in my size and be healthy. And I think, you know, that's where you run into challenges with the medical community and the educational community is the idea that, you know, but it's different when you're fat and you shouldn't be for all these reasons. And so I think we're really up against some really difficult challenges. some really difficult challenges. And so I think the best place to start is if we can sort of focus on the common ground, which is there are so many benefits to moving your body that have to do with trying to make it smaller. And so can we all agree that that's the lens through which

we're going to engage with kids? And, you know, part of why I think it seems maybe silly to focus on clothing when there's so many bigger issues to be solved why I think it seems maybe silly to focus on clothing when there's so many bigger issues to be solved. I think it's not only for the kids that want to in bigger bodies that want to keep playing, but it's for other kids as well, who have these opinions and ideas in their heads about what my body can do in this size. And I could be, you know, I was a great soccer player as a great tap dancer, regardless of the size of my body. And so can we focus on getting kids moving for their physical and mental health? And by being inclusive, can we start to change the narrative? This idea that you can't be good if you're in a bigger body, or if you, if you dance as much as I do, you're going to get smaller. Not so much.

Yeah. That's not how it works. Yeah. And teaching kids about nutrition early on as well. Do you think that would help or hinder? I think that's a really slippery area for me. Because calories and that comes into it and it then becomes shaming, doesn't it? And it's really tricky to get it right. And so I feel like for me, the possibility to do more damage than good is high. And I think kids start, start from a place of, you know, sort of intuitively knowing what their bodies want. They eat when they're hungry and they stop when they aren't. I think we then start to layer a lot more complexity on top of that, you know, that it

has to be all fresh fruit and vegetables, you know what I mean? So I think I do believe that we have to be really careful, particularly with younger kids, because I do think it can do more harm than good to get into new, and it's in many instances beyond what they're able to sort of comprehend and manage. So, you know, I like a more of an intuitive eating frame and, you know, there's no good foods and bad foods. It's just so. for two seconds here what a waste of bloody time that was he did not want them he pushed them he's not looked at them since but again it's one of those things and I had to really think if someone was waking up in the morning and telling me what to eat all day every day I think I'd be a bit like no I don't want that you know I'm not feeling that right now I mean it would be nice I'm sleep deprived mother at the moment who's and it would not be more to anyone cooking me anything this week I

would take but but I can see how you know some days he just wants four ice creams in a row and unfortunately he has found out how to get into the freezer now he knows exactly where they are and some evenings that is what he's you know that's what he that's what he fancies obviously I don't let him have four ice creams in a row because it's a bit silly, but you know, if he wants an ice cream, he can have an ice cream. It's not, it's not a big deal. That's what he fancies today. That's what he can eat. And is that what you mean with intuitive eating? Not quite what I just said. But I do think, I mean, I think first and foremost, there's a lot there, but I think first and foremost, we have to also start interrogating the absolute fear that we have about our children getting into bigger bodies. Like there's a lot there as well. But I do think the other thing is things tend to work themselves out over time. Or even if he wants to eat ice cream every single night for the next two weeks, keep the long view of it.

Because I think part of what happens is when you treat these foods as something we can't have, you're giving them more value. And so I know it can be hard, but if he wants to have an ice cream every day, let it go for two weeks and sort of see what happens. I guarantee you it's going to stop. Yeah. It is. of see what happens. I guarantee you it's going to stop. Yeah. It is. Because part of it is once you take the magic away from it, because kids know I'm not supposed to have this every day. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And to your point, particularly young kids, they don't have control over much. So controlling, you know, the food on their plates and what they eat and,

you know, this is a way that I can sort of take back a little bit of, cause you're always putting stuff on me and tell me where to go. And when I, yeah. Baffled the daily fact podcast, bringing you some amazing facts that are complete nonsense. In the 19th century, experts warned women about a disease called bicycle face,

which meant getting stuck with the awkward faces they make while bicycling. Giraffes. To know when to mate, the man will continuously headbutt the female in the bladder. Manatees control how much they float by farting. You can find us wherever you got this podcast. Just search for Baffled Amazing Facts. It's been such an interesting chat. Thank you. it's made me think about an awful lot because you know my little boy will be he's in nursery there's lots of different bodies there's lots

different people and you know it's a it's something i'm really conscious of with him and i do really want to be able to you know lead him to be a nice young man who doesn't judge people but it's hard and it you know it does start here be a nice young man who doesn't judge people, but it's hard. And it, you know, it does start here. You're absolutely right. Um, is there anyone online who you recommend apart from your good self, of course, uh, following, is there anyone who's body positive, who you, who you really enjoy and you think they're, they're getting this right? I think, you know, when you're talking about particularly with kids, uh, Virginia soul Smith is an author who just wrote a brand new book called Fat Talk.

I had to look at my shelf to get the name right because I'm like, I'm going to mess it up. She in particular is really focused on looking at particularly with children. And I think, you know, the work that she's doing and really saying, all right, let's take all the things that we all believe about bodies and about children, about, you know, things like nutrition and sports and medicine and all of it. Let's just really get into it. And so she's somebody that I think particularly for children is just absolutely key for parents and not just parents of kids in bigger bodies to really sort of look at the work that she's doing. There's also a woman named Sonia Renee Taylor who wrote The Body is Not an Apology, which is a book for adults, but she also wrote a book about bodies for children. And I think, you know, her, it's one of the first things that I read many years ago

and just sort of was like, okay, she's really trying to break this whole structure down. So, yeah, I think starting with their work. And if possible, even just having these books around, just having them, even if they're not picking them up, if they're not interested in reading them for the moment, having them around and just, you know, letting it sort of absorb into their minds a little. Yeah. I mean, I think, you know, particularly like I have books on bodies and how they work and questions about puberty and all those things. And we talk about it with my daughter, but just having it on her bookshelf, you know, this on your Renee Taylor book there, she can pull it out when I'm not around. Right. And trusting in the information

that's available because the other thing is, you know, sometimes when you start talking with your kids, they just instantaneously check out. Of of course of course my little boy's discovered his willy and he just he just for him obviously like it's the best thing and he's discovered now you know when he when he pees he can it can go in a certain direction but he also noticed he noticed another little boy the other day at the park ran behind a rock to do a wee. And he's two in September. But the way they pick this stuff up, every time we go to that park, he runs behind it and lifts his top up as if he's doing a wee behind the thing. And I was like, oh, my, like, they're absorbing everything.

He's taking that in and he's sort of trying to do what the, what the older kids do. So yeah, leading by example, I guess is a great way and hopefully, and what's the brand of your clothing? Where can people find it please, Pam? It is called Ember and Ace, which actually the company's a play on the word embrace, because that's what I want these kids to do. And it is available. We are available online only right now in the United States. My apologies. But with the hopes of expanding access as things grow. Amazing. And can people find you online? Yeah, I have. That's the website is Ember and Ace dot com. And then I have an Instagram account, which is at Ember and Ace. And I don't know if I'm going to jump into the thread pool.

I've jumped into it, but I haven't posted anything. That's too much pressure. I don't have time for all the things I have right now. Honestly, and it means I have to lose one of the others as well. Because if one's coming in, one's got to go. I have not got time for time for it yeah i don't know the best of times but yeah brilliant i know i know right pam it's been so lovely to speak to you thank you for joining us today on the mom's the word podcast thank you thank you and have a lovely sunny day hopefully over in the states no okay we've overcast currently but um we'll take it okay you get the nice weather all the time, so let's not worry about it. We really do.

Thanks, Pam Luck. Thank you. Thank you very much for listening to Mums the Word, the parenting podcast. Make sure you hit the subscribe or follow button so you never miss an episode. We love to hear from you. Get in touch on WhatsApp where you can send us a voice message for free, even anonymously if you want to, at 075-999-275-37. Or you can email us at askmumsthewordpod at gmail.com.

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