Mum's The Word! The Parenting Podcast - Everyday Sexism with Laura Bates

Episode Date: April 17, 2022

Author and founder of Everyday Sexism, Laura Bates joins Ashley on this week's episode of Mum's The Word. They're talking all about how to raise our sons and daughters, the differences in parental leave, if 50/50 parenting is ever possible and how to improve sex education in schools.Laura's new book 'Fix the System, Not the Women' is available in hardback and ebook from 12th May 2022. If you want to ask Ashley a question, get in touch at [e-mail]---A Create Podcast Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Own each step with Peloton. From their pop runs to walk and talks, you define what it means to be a runner. Whatever your level, embrace it. Journey starts when you say so. If you've got five minutes or 50, Peloton Tread has workouts you can work in. Or bring your classes with you for outdoor runs, walks, and hikes, led by expert instructors on the Peloton app. Call yourself a runner.

Peloton all-access membership separate. Learn more at onepeloton.ca slash running. Good morning, guys. I'm actually very cheery for this week's podcast episode. Do you know what? I've been thinking a lot about what I chatted about with Zanna in last week's episode you know at the end when she said her reasons for deciding to potentially be a mom is because it's about feeling of or where she wants to be in 10 years as opposed to now and it's made me feel like I don't know if I'm speaking on behalf of you guys but I definitely feel like I live in my head and I live in the day to day a lot with Alf.

And I am really excited about like so many things in the future. And this weekend, I finally got to catch up with my best friend from uni jazz. We haven't seen each other since just before lockdown. So obviously in that time, like she never met Tommy. She never met Alf. I've not met her boyfriend. She went to the Philippines and then obviously the world locked down. So she stayed out there and we were talking just about babies and life. A few of her friends had babies in the time that she was away. And she was like, isn't it crazy that like you literally only have a baby for like one summer.

And that really made me think like, oh my God any age they are you have one season I know it's like such an obvious thing but it really like reminded me of the fact that everything is like a phase and I am actually really enjoying this phase with Alf like he's starting to talk loads well not loads but you know he can say like mama and daddy and all the animal sounds and if you ask him if he wants more food he can say no more no more and it's just like a really exciting and yeah like this time next summer he's not going to be the age I mean you're probably like well done Ashley but to me it was it was just like a bit of a revolutionary thing that I need to kind of stop living in my head or in that moment and I think that's a result

of lockdown because we kind of stop looking forward to the future. And then I really like think about my life is like every day, like, am I happy today? No. And I need to think a bit more about the future of motherhood. And I am so excited about that. And one thing Jazz and I were talking about was like having babies and gender disappointment, which is obviously, I guess, a controversial topic, but also a topic that a lot of people feel even if you shouldn't even if it's not right because of course at the end of the day like a healthy baby is a blessing no matter what the gender we were talking about basically how like when people have girls or find out they're having girls there's this idea about oh we need to like lock up our daughters. And this kind of talk really annoys me

because it's like, why do we have to lock up our daughters? Why can't we? Why isn't it like, oh my God, we're having a boy. And I think a lot of my own gender disappointment with having a boy was because I was like, it's so scary. Like, I don't know. Like, why do we kind of talk about locking up women

because of male behavior? And it's a conversation that I really wanted to have. And so I've basically found the perfect guest. I am so, so excited to be able to interview her that she even was willing to be interviewed. And I feel like it's going to be such a good podcast episode. So as I mentioned, I am just beyond excited for today's guest. Her work has played a major part in my own journey, I guess, of a woman and also finding my own voice. She is the founder and author of Everyday Sexism, also another favorite book of mine, Men Who Hate Women. She also has a book coming out in May called Fix the System, not the women. As I said, perfect guest for what I want to talk about. She's a feminist activist and has become a spokeswoman for what they call the fourth wave of feminism. She's given TED Talks, spoken at universities and the House of Lords, and she even received a British Empire Medal for services to gender equality. So I'm just so, so beyond excited to

have you on. It's Laura Bates. Hi, thank you so much for having me. I'm really, really excited to get chatting. I was just saying in the intro earlier that I was talking with a friend this weekend about gender disappointment, which is obviously a really unacceptable thing to feel, but something that a lot of people feel. And we were talking about someone who just found out that they were having a little girl and the dad of this little girl-to-be was like, oh, I'm going to have to lock her up. And I was like, no, I hate this term. And I think a lot of my gender disappointment with finding out I was having Alf was like, oh my goodness, I'm going

to have to raise a son. I'm going to have to raise a man in this really scary world that we live in. So I thought it'd be really interesting to talk to you about your journey with everything you talk about, but in particular in respects to motherhood. What are your thoughts around gender disappointment with everything that you know and talk about? It's definitely something that we hear about a lot. It's really common for us to hear from parents, but particularly from women who've had girls with complete strangers or people they know saying, oh, you're going to have to keep trying until you get a boy then, even now. I mean, I think this is something that we tend to think of as a thing of a few generations back when my mum visited my grandparents

to introduce my baby brother for the first time to his grandparents, my dad's parents. My brother has myself and another sister, so two older sisters. And when they left, there was a wrapped up gift on the passenger seat of the car. And when she opened it, it was like this ugly, heavy kind of piece of gold jewelry. And she said to my dad, what like this ugly, heavy kind of piece of gold jewelry. And she said to my dad, what's this? And he said, it's because you finally had a son. So I think there is, I think people, many people are aware of that having been something that is in the not too recent past. But I think what people might not realize is that it is still something that parents contend with even today. And I think it's an understandable for people to feel that sense of, like you said, kind of nervousness about what it'll be like to raise a boy or a sense of trepidation about bringing up a girl in this world.

You know, those are understandable feelings in a world in which we are bombarded with these stereotypes that we attach to children from such a young age. from such a young age. You mentioned that thing about locking up your daughters. That is so common. Even now we see celebrity dads posting pictures of their children on Instagram. And I won't name any names, but with captions saying things like, you know, she's going to have to become a nun or jokes about Valentine's Day. And her daddy's the only person who's ever allowed to be her Valentine. And it's applauded. We see all of these people writing how cute it is underneath and how sweet it is and in reality what we're celebrating there is this policing of girls sexuality and their bodies and their life choices in a light-hearted way but really that's what's at the root of it from a really young age from childhood and we see the same thing the other way around with boys so we see t-shirts for boys that say things like chick magnet or lock up your daughters, that kind of thing. I think part of the problem is that

we sexualize children and particularly mixed sex friendships from a really terrifyingly young age. So it's not uncommon at all, for example, at a play group to have two little kids who are playing together or looking at the same toy. And you hear comments like, oh, it's her first boyfriend, or they're on their first date. Or if kids like each other at four or five, you'll hear parents saying things like, I think he's got a crush. And the trouble is that as they grow up, kids internalize that stuff. And it sends them this message that if you have a mixed sex friendship, it has to be romantic or sexual, and that it's weird, it can't be platonic. And it's heartbreaking because when you go into schools by the age of six or seven, you start to see the kids internalizing that to

the degree that they self-segregate, whether it's in the playground or it's in the lunch queue, they do start separating themselves out by gender. And in my research recently, what I've been seeing with this kind of attempt to radicalize some teenage boys into quite extreme misogyny is that it's effective because they aren't necessarily spending a lot of time with girls as platonic friends. So we're almost priming them for these problems from a really, really young age. And so it's no wonder I think that parents feel this panic about babies and babyhood, because that's what they're about to be plunged into. It's so interesting, isn't it? Because this whole idea of like, lock up your daughters,

or, you know, people will always say to Alf, like, oh, he's such a little stardaw. Oh, he's going to be a heartbreaker. And I'm like, no, he's not going to be a heartbreaker. And they're like, oh, no, you're being sensitive. Obviously, I don't mean that he's going to go around breaking hearts, but obviously loads of girls will want him. So that's why he'll be a heartbreaker like and they're like oh no you're being sensitive like obviously I don't mean that he's gonna like go around breaking hearts but obviously loads of girls will want him so that's why he'll be a heartbreaker as if that's any better like I don't know he's literally a truck like he I mean he's only just turned one like it's such a weird thing to say to me but in this whole like lock up your daughter how it's thrown around I kind of feel like but why should we lock up our daughters why can't we lock up our sons, how it's thrown around, I kind of feel like, but why should we

lock up our daughters? Why can't we lock up our sons? And obviously, I don't want to lock up my son. Obviously, that is not the solution either. But why do we think, wow, there's a real problem in society with men? Because that's what it is. When we say lock up our daughters, as much as men don't want to have the conversation around sexism, or we're told that we're being too sensitive if we overreact to someone saying they're a heartbreaker. Men, dads, they say that because they fear boys or they know what boys will be like as teenagers or boys will be boys. It's this whole kind of like misogynistic sexist narrative that they're not prepared to think about because it's always not all men until their dads and until it's their children and what I found really insulting about the whole lock up their daughters thing

is that I always felt like I was a very like morally sound person like I knew what I wanted to do which wasn't to say that I wasn't a sexual person but I had like I what I would say as I had my head screwed on as much as any of the boys. And yes, of course, there are risks with letting a young girl out because of the society we're in. But why is there this automatic distrust of women or of girls as they grow up? Why can't we trust them to make their own life choices? Why do we have to say they're going to be nuns? It's basically a kind of child extension of the the slut shaming and the victim blaming that we see later on and in it you're right it's seen as benign and because it's sort of cutesy-wootsy and it's little kids people are like oh stop getting your knickers in a twist why

are you making a fuss about that but when you take it to its logical conclusion unfortunately it is an extension of that later on, right? Well, the girl gets to what, maybe 10 or 11, and we start making her put gym shorts on underneath her school skirt because the boys might look up her skirt. And the solution that is apparently not to teach the boys not to look up girls' skirts, it's to teach the girls to compensate by bidding on extra clothing. Even worse is being told that it's a distraction to the teachers. So now you're putting young girls in skirts because they're not choosing to wear skirts most of the time. You're putting young girls in skirts, but then telling them if it's too short, they're

distracting adult teachers. What? From dress codes and the way that we police girls' bodies at schools, we are the ones that sexualize them. So if you have a dress code that says from the age of 11, a girl can't show her knees or her shoulders, it is that dress code and that adult narrative that is imposing sexualization on her body, right? We are saying your knees are sexy and dangerous and powerful. It's not the girl making that choice. And then you're blaming her for boys' behaviors. This is something I see at schools all the time. Girls who are really young, who are being told that they will distract the boys.

And what that does is it teaches them from a really young age in a subtle way, you are responsible for boys' negative behavior. If they harass you, if they are leering at you, if they're trying to touch you, it's your fault. You're responsible for preventing it. leering at you, if they're trying to touch you, it's your fault. You're responsible for preventing it. And it also teaches us that girls' education is not privileged over boys. Basically, boys' education is privileged above everything else. So girls are being removed from class because they're wearing skirts that they are told are too short because of someone else's idea about their knees. And I'm in school sometimes where I'm hearing about girls who've been sent home for

wearing skirts that showed their knees. On a day when the boys in my lecture are sitting there in their rugby shorts because there's a match later but their knees apparently we have decided are not powerful and dangerous and liable to make other people do things that they can't possibly be expected to control so they get these messages from such a young age. And of course, as they grow up, then that extends into what we teach them. And almost every girl I know by the age of 18 or 19, she knows a list of rules that boys don't know. And nobody has ever sat her down and taught them to her. But how many of us haven't done these things?

We walk home with our keys between our fingers in case we need them as a weapon. We cross the street if we see a big group of men up ahead. Take a minicab, but don't take the wrong kind of minicab. Don't be wearing a short skirt in case you give someone the wrong idea. Make sure you don't wear your hair in a ponytail. Someone might grab it. Have headphones in so you can't hear the harassment. No, don't have headphones in so you can hear if someone comes up behind you. Keep your hand over your drink at all times in a club. Make sure you go to the bathroom in groups text each other when you get home safely the number of things that we teach our girls by their late teens is heartbreaking and it's heartbreaking because it polices them for the actions of others it's heartbreaking because we're not generally sitting boys down and having

healthy conversations about consent and about healthy relationships and respect. But it's also heartbreaking because it doesn't actually work. We have this thing very often where people go, oh, I get what you're saying, but it's just common sense to teach girls this stuff, isn't it? Because that's the world we live in. It's just common sense. I'm not blaming them for what happens, but it is common sense to teach them these things to be careful. And the funny thing is, it's not common sense. Because if you want to be hardheaded and just talk about the statistics and take morality out of it, a girl, a woman is probably safer passed out drunk in an alleyway at two o'clock in the morning wearing a short skirt doing all the things she's been told not to do. Statistically speaking, then she is in her pajamas

at home, because the person far more likely to sexually assault her statistically, because around 90% of perpetrators are known to their victims, is a boyfriend, a colleague, a friend, a husband, a partner. So our whole focus on women, not only is it wrong and immoral, but it also doesn't work because we know full well that these aren't shadowy strangers in dark alleyways in the majority of cases. They're men that we know. It's interesting as well, isn't it? Because it kind of places blame or shame on the woman. And we saw it in the case of Sarah Everard, like really recent case that obviously was like huge in terms of headlines, but very close to me because it literally happened a few

doors down from where I lived at the time. And I think it was the telegraph that said she was walking home in clothes that were suitable for that time of night. It was something along the fact of like, she was even dressed okay, as if the fact that if she had been dressed to go to a club, it would make it any more acceptable if she was wearing heels and a skirt. But I had an incident that I haven't talked about, if she was wearing like heels and a skirt. But I had an incident that I haven't talked about and I won't talk about a university that happened by a friend of mine. And I always blame myself because I was drunk.

And I think it is because again, it's those subconscious rules that we teach women of like, don't get too drunk. And obviously if you do get too drunk and also knowing that what the clothes that we wear, the volume we drink, like all of these factors are questioned even in court. So even when something bad does happen, you're still questioning the woman and her morals

and her sexual history and what she was wearing and how much she drank. But what is the solution in your opinion? Obviously, I've got lots of mums and potentially dads listening as well. How do we raise sons and daughters? Because I'll be honest, I used to always throw that meme around. Whenever there is violence by men against women, I would always put up that quote saying, educate your sons. And I'd throw that around so easily. Educate your sons. Educate your sons.

There's that one that has crossed out protect your daughters and educate your sons. And then when I became a mum to a son, and I think a lot of my disappointment in having a son, as awful as it is to say, was because A, I'd learned so much that I was so looking forward to being able to empower a woman so that she wouldn't have to go through a lot of the things I went through. But also I got to a point where I was like, when you talk about feminism and the patriarchy and violence against women, it's always this upheaval of not all men, we're not all bad, we're not all bad.

And I think I just got to the point where I felt like I did hate men, which is a terrible thing to say because it is so hard to distinguish between the good ones and the bad ones because it is a systematic problem. is a systematic problem. So when it comes to raising sons and raising daughters, how do we not fall into that trap of letting the boys go out and getting away with everything because boys will be boys, but they're not policing our daughters when most parents are afraid of the world in which they're going to grow up in? So I think when I talk to parents, there's always this fear because it feels like such a big, negative, horrible, scary subject. And when people ask, how do I talk to my child about this? In their head, I think they're envisaging a single conversation. And that's terrifying, understandably, because how do you broach all this? How do you try to chip away and undermine

that societal messaging? You're absolutely right. What was Sarah wearing? She did all the right things. And therefore, this idea that it's somehow more tragic as if it wouldn't have been if she'd been doing anything, the messaging that they are seeing in society. How can we possibly tackle that in one conversation? And the answer is you can't. You can't possibly, which is why I think it starts at the very beginning and it starts really small. It's little manageable things. It doesn't start with a big terrifying conversation about sexual violence when your kid is 15. It starts when your child is two or three. And we all accept that it's totally normal to teach a child if they're going to nursery, say, you don't hit another kid and nobody goes,

but you can't talk to kids about violence because obviously you do it in an age appropriate way. So when we talk about this stuff, you very often get this kind of tabloid reaction of, oh my gosh, they want to talk about children under five about porn. And of course you don't, but in just the same way, the building blocks are there in an age appropriate way. So at that same very early stage, we can start to teach kids, this is your body and you get to make choices about your body and other people get to choose what happens to their body and we have to respect that. So in terms of children touching and grabbing other kids in just the same way that we teach kids about sharing objects or about not hitting, we can also teach about respecting other people's bodies and by extension about respect for

their own bodies and their own rights. And that's something that doesn't have to be sexualized. So we can role model it, for example, in family relationships. When I was little, it was very much the thing that if a grandparent or an uncle or whatever wanted to say goodbye, you had to submit to the kisses and the cuddles, whether you liked it or not. And of course, there was nothing sexual about that whatsoever. But it does teach young children, you know, we have to submit politely to what other people want to do, even if we don't necessarily always feel comfortable with it. And it's a really empowering opportunity to teach kids that they get to set boundaries and have control. If, for example, we say something

really simple like, hey, when we're saying goodbye today, how would you like to say goodbye? Do you want to give a hug? Do you want to do a high five? Do you want to blow a kiss? And you let the kid choose. And it's teaching children of all genders, but I think particularly for girls, quite important at a young age, you get to set those boundaries. You get to decide what you're comfortable with within a framework of still, of course, offering affection to their family. So there's so many ways like that, that we can be creative about this. It doesn't have to be, this is about rape and we're talking to kids about it. And then I think we can start with disrupting gender stereotypes from a really young age. So it's not about hiding all the Barbies from

our daughters and never letting our sons play football, but it's about giving them a range of choice. It's about really trying to think outside the box in terms of the toys that we make available to them. For example, we know that sort of STEM toys are very often targeted at boys. You'll still go into a toy store and see boys toys as a big blue sign with kind of chemistry and physics kits underneath. And you can buy your daughter the physics set and that's one way around it, but you can also talk to her about it and talk to your boys and say, hey, look at those dolls that you really love playing with at that stay and play the other day. That sign says girls. That's wrong, isn't it? Should we move them into the boys section? Any child can play with this. It's not about censorship and it's not about trying to

kind of brainwash our kids, which I think a lot of people think when they hear about campaigners talking about gender neutral toys. It's about giving them the confidence and the curiosity and the tools to feel that they can, if they want to, question and disrupt gender stereotypes. Because when children see stuff in the world around us from a really young age and it goes unchallenged, understandably, they learn from that, oh, this is something that's the way the world is. Like if they're in the trolley and you're going around the supermarket and they're sitting in the little seat and maybe they're five or six and they're just starting to learn to read and you go down the magazine aisle, even now in our big supermarkets, they will see men and women. And underneath those,

under women, you get celebrity diet gossip magazines. And under men, you see The Economist and The National Geographic and The New Statesman and magazines about politics and history and private eye, The Spectator, whatever. So at that point, we can either say nothing and our kid absorbs that information, or we can say, hey, that's weird, isn't it? We can point it out. We can question it. And when we do that, we give them the permission to question gender stereotypes later on as well. So it's all the little tiny everyday things. Even when I was probably like 11 or 12, maybe about 12, I decided to shave my legs because at the time there was a magazine called J17.

And that was like the magazine that I, like all the girls, we'd always try and get our hands on it. And we pretty much learned everything about diets before we needed to diet and shaving our legs, even before we knew why or what it was. It was just something that grownups did. And that was all because the magazines that were available to us, this was the narrative within them. I remember even having a diary and I was told, put your shaving days in your diary so that you never get too hairy. And I didn't even know why. And I remember borrowing my mom's razor and I've got these little... It was like a denim diary that came free with J17. And it was like day one shaved. And then it would be something really like childlike because obviously I was still a child at the time. And I was like, this is so

sad that I started shaving my legs before I even knew why I wanted to, or if I wanted to. And yeah, why is it that there is still that narrative in magazines even today? Of course, it's teaching us that girls, even the whole domestic role. I used to love this magazine called Vicky and it came with a doll. And every week it would be like Vicky goes to Poland or Vicky. It was either she'd travel somewhere or she'd get a job. But it was all quite like still teaching us that we belonged in a domestic role. What do you think about sexism in motherhood?

Because this is something that I've I really struggled with and I speak to people all the time even last night a friend said that she'd sent her husband to stay in a hotel for the night because she was like fed up of you know I feel like there is this like real issue that some people talk about and some people don't about becoming parents and suddenly feeling like the balance is a bit off off center because for example, when Tommy and I found out we were having a baby and we were like 50-50 parenting. Yeah, because everything else in our life was 50-50. Like we paid the bills 50-50.

We both had jobs. Like everything was 50-50. So why wouldn't parenting be? And even the fact that the sentence I'm about to say is in defense of him, but he is really hands-on and he's a really good dad. I will say controversially, I don't believe 50-50 parenting exists because you can have the best, most hands-on man in the world, but society does not allow you to be equal. And even, I think Tommy got six weeks paternity leave, which is absolutely amazing compared to the standard. But then when he went back to work, I was still bleeding. My hormones were all over the place.

I was breastfeeding. I could barely stand up and sit down. And I was like, wait, what? You're going back to normality. And he goes for lunches with clients. And it alsoided with the Euros. He's a big football fan. So there was always like, oh, I'm going to go watch the game here. I'm going to go watch the game there. And I just felt so bitter because I was like, my boobs are leaking. My body is bleeding. I used to be doing all of these really exciting things. And now I'm sat at home.

How is this 50-50? Why hasn't society moved on in the way it's moved on in other walks of life, but yet we still expect women to do everything but applaud men for being hands-on if they do the basics? It's crazy, isn't it? You're so right that it exists and that sometimes we sort of pretend it doesn't because we want to think we've made this progress, but you've absolutely hit the nail on the head. It's the system that forces us into these older, outdated gender roles, even when we set out with different intentions. This is something that I look at in my new book, this idea of fixing the system and not the women, because we often have these little courses for new

mums, like assertiveness courses for women at work and getting your confidence back. And you think, actually, it's not women's confidence that's necessarily the issue. It's a workplace that discriminates against new mums and rewards new dads. It's a system where even if parents set out to do the leave equally, the reality is that the parental leave that men are offered is so, so much less. And yes, there's shared parental leave available, but there's huge issues with that system. And often it doesn't financially work out. It doesn't make sense, the system we have. There isn't ring fence father's leave in this country, which there absolutely should be. And then it's the little things like your kid falls over at school or vomits and they ring the mom. Every time they ring the mom, they're not ringing the dads.

Lots of women have been writing about this on Twitter recently, really high powered women with really important careers where the child in one case, I think, actually said to the teacher, please don't ring my mum, she'll be in court. And so they left her a voicemail rather than disturb dad at work. So it's so bolstered and encouraged by the society around us. That doesn't help as individuals. It's hard to fight against that tide. And then there's also the emotional labor issue, which is huge because when we raise girls from a young age to think they are responsible for other people's feelings, that their value and worth as a woman is generally seen in terms of how they are relating to other

people. Are they a good daughter? Are they a good friend? Will they be a good wife one day? Are they a good mom? I mean, the pressure there is huge. Whereas with men, we tend to see them as individuals first and foremost. So when we do that, what we're really teaching women is when the kid comes along, they are the one responsible for keeping in their heads everything from playdates to birthday cards for friends to have the nursery got enough nappies at the moment and what day is red nose day? And what do they need to wear? And all of that stuff that just adds up and up and up. And you can't easily write that down on a spreadsheet and show that emotional labor. But it's huge.

And we've trained women from childhood to take it on. And we've trained men from childhood that it's nothing to do with them. So it's no wonder, I think, that we end up in this mess. And so many couples, I think, are in this mess of thinking, how did we get here? We had such good intentions. He's really supportive and brilliant and great. And yet somehow it's not 50-50. Welcome to Paranormal Activity with me, Yvette Fielding, a brand new podcast bringing together

people's real ghost, extraterrestrial and paranormal stories, as well as getting some inside details from those who study the supernatural. I'll be listening through your paranormal stories every week and try to understand them, as well as chatting about my own encounters with an occasional paranormal investigator too. You can find us wherever you get your podcasts from, including Apple Podcasts, Spotify, and Acast. Just search for Paranormal Activity with Yvette Fielding. And I think it's the fact that, you know, even when I talk about this, I have to say, but Tom's really good because it's like, you don't want to insult your partner. Because even in the stage when Tom and I were having

these huge arguments, because I was like, your life is normal again. And I'm the one that, and I was like, I'm a career person. Oh, this was another thing. My friend who doesn't have children, she was like chatting to me one day and she just said really off the cuff, I think I haven't had children yet because I've like focused on my career. And that really hit a nerve to me because I was like I have focused on my career I still focus on my career I just happen to meet someone and have a baby but like we would never think that or say that about a man who is a dad they can still be career career men even when they're a dad and Tommy sometimes takes out if he's got like a client that he's trying to impress he'd

be like oh can I borrow Alf and you know take him out yeah because it's a positive for them yeah there is no phrase working dad or career dad is there it is so interesting but I feel like people don't want to really talk about it because they don't want it to appear that there are like cracks in the relationship and I don't think it is cracks in the relationship which is also why we feel so inclined to praise the dad oh no but he is so good or he is so hands-on but I still find it frustrating that when I go to an event whether it's I'm DJing or attending whatever it is people will always say to me oh he's looking after Alf and I'm always like the other the other like 50 I'm like oh that's so nice that he does that and I'm like is it is it, is it nice when I do that?

Because nobody tells me that. I think it's because we are so used to defining women by their function in society, which we perceive to be basically child rearing and having sex with men. And yet we don't define men in that way. So if we had had a female prime minister, for example, who had the relationship history a female prime minister, for example, who had the relationship history of our prime minister, it would have been a huge, huge focus. It would have been massive, but it just doesn't apply the other way around. When a woman was about to become very high up in

the BBC, the headline said, mum of three poised to lead BBC. When we hear about politicians in a newspaper article, it always notes mum of two or whatever at the beginning. We don't hear that about dads because it's not considered relevant. It's society that reduces us to these roles and sees us as the mum rather than a person who has children. And of course, it does that as well for women who don't have children. So I think that might well be where your friend was coming from because without their wanting it at all either, women who for millions of great reasons choose that they don't want to have children are then defined by not having children, which is also reductive and unfair and stereotypical. And they're seen as, oh, she must be a really driven career woman.

And they hear this ridiculous stuff like, oh, she'll regret it when she's 40. And whoever we are, whatever choices we make, we can't avoid seemingly society because we are women, then boiling us down to these little boxes and trying to shut us in them. And that's so frustrating. I always say it's like when Boris Johnson did the lockdown and it's now like almost a famous parody by Matt Lucas, where it's like stay at home, but don't stay at home, go to work, but don't go to work. I was like my god that is mother that is literally motherhood because when I said I didn't want children I'd be like oh but yourself like oh no you're selfish or you'll live to regret that and then when I got pregnant and I decided to have a child but then I was like

oh I miss my old life people like but you're a mum now you can't be selfish anymore and I was like wait so was I selfish when I said I didn't want children or am I selfish now that I'm a mom and I still want to like be a DJ or do whatever I want to do? And then it's like, go to work. So even like the concept of, you know, having a nanny, yes, it's a financial privilege, but essentially the mother is the nanny if she chooses to stay at home, which by the way, I think everybody should, like feminism is working its magic. But if you have like, everybody should have a choice. If you want to be a stay at home, which by the way, I think everybody should. Feminism is working its magic. But everybody should have a choice. If you want to be a stay-at-home mom, hats off to you because I couldn't do it. I think you're amazing.

But if you want to go to work, why is it suddenly seen as like, oh, you've got a nanny. That must be nice. Because childcare is so out of reach for so many people, a lot of women don't have that choice. So therefore, it's seen as a privilege. But then a man going to work, it's just presumed that it would be like the woman who looks after his kids and that's not considered a privilege because apparently our time is free.

I mean, just don't even get me started on the childcare system. It's the biggest barrier that we have to women's economic empowerment at all stages. If you have a childcare system that is utterly broken, completely unaffordable and neglected, it's such a big barrier. But where is the political will to tackle it? Well, the people in politics making these big decisions are all men. Only a third of our MPs are women. Men led the COVID briefings for six months straight without a single woman getting a look in. And then you start to look at what happened during lockdown and the COVID response that was just woefully, woefully lacking in any kind of gendered look in. And so you've got women giving birth alone while the pubs are heaving.

You've got playgrounds still locked while people are able, utterly broken and suffering, who are suffering trauma after giving birth alone, who are suffering the after effects of mental health problems that weren't picked up because there were no face-to-face appointments, who just haven't had any of that network of in-person support, stay-in-plays, community centres, all that stuff that in some cases is still not yet up and running again. And it's just this invisible forgotten thing because it's parents, it's mums. Not to mention the mums who lost their jobs because of lockdown, the mums of disabled children who didn't have the support they needed, who have been completely ignored, who had to shield the impact on women's careers. I think there are still many mums of older children as well, who are still picking up the pieces of just completely broken mental health from two years of suddenly being expected to go back, essentially go back to the 1950s. Because we just, the

assumption was everyone will carry on working from home, and the children without childcare to go to will somehow be looked after. And of course, what we really mean by that is mums will be doing it. And in the vast majority of cases, mums were, we know that mums' jobs were vastly more disproportionately impacted than dads, for example. But no one is really talking about that or the aftermath that that has had on so many parents' mental health. And I think it's this big hidden time bomb. I really do. Yeah. I mean, I've been really open about obviously my own journey of becoming a mom in lockdown and my mental health around it. And I even feel envious now, you know, my friends who are having children and I see them like out at the pub and doing all of this stuff

that obviously there's like pros and cons to everything, isn't there? But I feel like, oh my God, like I felt like I got so lost. I really lost myself in motherhood, but of course I did. I didn't get to see my friends. I didn't get to meet new people. I didn't get to meet other mums for months. But going back to what you were saying about a third of the women, like only a third of women being in politics, I think it's interesting because of this whole childcare thing being out of, the price of childcare being out of reach for the majority of people. Therefore the assumption that it's a woman's role to look after children. You know, you have somebody like Stella Creasy, who is a woman in parliament, and I think she's doing like amazing, you know, she's really like trying to break down barriers of she's breastfeeding, therefore she needs to have her

child with her, therefore, you know, and then I look sometimes at the comments that she receives on Twitter from not just men, because sometimes I almost expect it from them, but actually from women. Child care is politicized against women because it's like, well, you can afford it. And it's not taking into account the fact she's breastfeeding. And therefore, even if she wanted to leave her child at home, she can't because her child is literally attached to her body. But it's the fact that like, well, what do you think the rest of us do? You're out of touch. This is why I wouldn't vote Labour, because you're out of touch, because you think that you're special, whereas the rest of us have to look after our own children. And that's a really hard thing to tackle, isn't it? Because

we should all be on the same side, like we should all be fighting the same fight. But even women are kind of fighting against each other with motherhood. Yeah, it's really difficult. And I think it's so encouraged by the press. You know, we still love this idea of a cat fight, this idea of the kind of clickbait of pitting women against each other. And, you know, the oldest trick in the book for the tabloids is find a woman to say the unacceptable sexist thing that you want to say about this woman, pay her a lot of money to say it, and then you can present it as, oh, well, you know, it's women who think this as well. It's such a kind of underhanded sort of undermining trick. And the reality is that

Stella and lots of other MPs who are really fighting for this, what they're trying to say is we have an antiquated system that simply does not work for caregivers. The vast majority of caregivers are women. So this is a real barrier to women in politics. And if we want to change things that affect all women, then having women in that place and being able to do those roles is really important. And you've got women like Tulip Sadiq as well. I believe she had to postpone her C-section to vote because there isn't any proper system in place to guarantee proper leave and support for MPs. It's just, it's so antiquated and nobody, I think, Stella and nobody else is saying, well,

this is the main or the only problem we've got. But what she's saying is if we can't fix this here, then how can we possibly force this place, which is what has the power to change it everywhere else to do anything. It's really difficult. And it's just so incredibly, incredibly narrow and stereotyped. And it really reduces women back down to this idea of do they have kids? I mean, I get obsessive messages about you'll never have kids. If you bang on about this feminism stuff, no mom will ever want to marry you. Or when people found out that i was getting married people men wrote open letters saying things to my husband at the time my then fiance saying do not marry this woman she will murder your children steal your money burn your house down and run away to

join a coven of lesbian witches which frankly that last bit sounds awesome i guess living the idea of children there yeah but it is that focus focus on you're unnatural to be a woman speaking out in the public eye about this stuff. You know, you're unnatural. You're not maternal. Why are you doing this? Just go home, shut up, sit down, have some babies. This idea that I must be a baby killer because I'm talking about this stuff and I'm trying to advance kind of feminist ideas. I think it's really revealing because it shows how deeply tied together some of our old fashioned ideas about women are with this idea of procreation being their only role. Do you know what's interesting? Because even I've spoken a lot about women's issues for a long time.

And when I was single and dating, I even found myself thinking like, oh God, they're going to go on my Instagram and see that I'm like feminine. And then I had to like stop myself to be like, why does that matter? Like, why would I want to be with someone who didn't consider themselves a feminist or progressive or want equality? But I still found myself doing it. And even now I'm trying to unpick like so much of, you know, the fact I'm getting older and I had Botox and I was like, oh my God, I'm part of the patriarchy. Like why, why am I not happy to get older? I should be happy to get older. Aging is a privilege, but yet I'm fighting it. And therefore I'm like, but then I think we also have to be kind to ourselves because we were all raised in this system. But my question to you is, you know, I can like talk about how unfair or, you know, the, the gender divide, especially

with parenting is because I think it was so shocking to me because I've always been such an alpha female. I've always been a career woman. I've always been 50-50. And so I was so shocked at like, wait a minute, why is it expected that I have to do all of the maternal thing? Why is Tom celebrated for doing the absolute minimum? But then what is the solution? I think it has to go right back to the beginning. Well, I think it's two things actually. I think it's structural and this is what my new book is all about. It's moving away from individual women, like you say, lambasting individual women for choosing to have Botox or not have Botox, blaming individual women for their own assaults because of what they were or weren't wearing, telling individual women that

it's their fault that they haven't been bold enough going back to work after a baby and saying all of that is absolute nonsense. It's sleight of hand. It's distracting us from the real problem, which is systemic. So the answer is in systems. It's in structural change. It's in stuff that actively makes a difference to people's lives. So childcare that is affordable and universal, actively makes a difference to people's lives. So childcare that is affordable and universal, parental leave that ring fences funding for fathers that they take. When you say ring fences funding, what does that mean? Sorry. Basically within parental leave in this country with shared parental leave, you get to choose which parent takes it. But in other countries like Germany, there's a big bit of that leave

that is ring fenced. In other words, it's for the dad. And if he doesn't take it, then you don't get it. And they still have a really generous allowance for mums as well. So mums aren't losing out. But it's so easy within the current structures that we have here just to say, oh, the woman will just do it. And in a lot of people's jobs, that ends up working out economically better. So the system changes that can make a difference, I think, are really important. But I also think it starts right back at the beginning if we're thinking about individuals in the way that we educate children in terms of what we let them think about as being

their roles, their aspirations, their opportunities, their choices, and trying to really widen that out. I also think there's another issue which we haven't touched on yet, which is this, it's a really big parenting issue, but it's really rarely talked about. And I find that really weird because a lot of my research is around what are the influences on boys at kind of teenage and just younger as they're starting to form these ideas about what their role is and what it might look like in the world. And the biggest influence amongst the boys I work with, I work in schools about twice a week on average. So I've been to thousands of schools all over the country. And the biggest thing that I think is impacting young people is what they're seeing online. And this is a huge parenting issue

because it's a unique moment in history. This has never happened before and it will never happen again. We're just where we are right now. A generation of non-digital natives are parenting and educating a generation of digital natives. And the difference there is huge. It's like a culture gap. We need to learn what our children's lives are like in order to support them. But because we don't really acknowledge it, there's this whole other world that our kids are living with one foot in really at all times. You know, there are so many of them on their phones so much of the time. If parents aren't supported to learn about that world and what's going on there, there's this huge missed opportunity to see what's happening and to support young people.

So in particular, I'd say that we need to talk about online porn a lot more than we are. We know that 60% of kids are 14 or younger when they first see online porn. So we are talking about the majority having seen it by 14 and a quarter of them are 12. So this is widespread. It's not something we can bury our heads in the sand and go, it's just a few kids. It's not my kid. It's not. And then when you look at what the online porn they're seeing is, again, there's this awareness gap. So I talk to lots of parents who, when we talk about online porn, they think we're talking about like a Playboy centerfold, but online. But the reality is that we're talking about videos which show women being hurt, being raped, being degraded, being humiliated, being abused on the most mainstream, easily accessible sites that a kid who's curious,

who might type in the word sex or porn and click on the top link, might find themselves confronted with. Easily accessible stuff, no kind of age limit, nothing like that. It's not kind of niche websites that you have to know how to find. In the mainstream websites, a study from Durham University recently found that one eighth of all the videos show illegal acts. So they're showing women being coerced, being abused, being hurt. And it's really not uncommon for me to go into schools and hear 12 and 13 year olds saying things like, rape is a compliment,

really. It's not rape if she enjoys it. They think that if you're raped, it has to be by a stranger. So it can't be rape if your boyfriend forces you to have sex because he's your boyfriend. to be by a stranger. So it can't be rape if your boyfriend forces you to have sex because he's your boyfriend. I had a school visit where they'd had a rape involving a 14-year-old boy and a teacher had said to him, why didn't you stop when she was crying? And he'd said, because it's normal for girls to cry during sex because that's what he'd seen online. So I think that part of it is learning the world that our kids are in and talking to them about it openly, giving them a place for boys as well, because this is scary and overwhelming for them, where they can come and not be judged and just ask about stuff, talk about stuff that at the

moment is so shrouded in shame and secrecy. And I think that would do a lot of good as well. It's weird, isn't it? like sex is something that every generation has always kind of done essentially but then when we when we talk about improving sex education it's always met with such criticism because like we shouldn't be talking about this with our kids but actually we do i remember even like my sex education it was so i think i still remember because i remember like the guys like floppy willy going around but it was very much like about procreation and there was nothing in it about female enjoyment or pleasure or consent or anything. It was like a man has sex and it feels really nice for him. And then they have a baby and that, you know, that felt old even then. But then how can you,

I guess my question is as a mum to a son and obviously it's a long way off for me yet but surely we can do so much at home but ultimately they go into school and they find themselves in groups and they want to fit in what like how how do we fix that that system it seems so fast i know this is your job and it must be so overwhelming for you. Especially, for example, an amazing activist, Pregnant and Screwed, they've just tried to get Parliament to look at childcare and they've just said, no, it's not a priority. So what can we do if we're signing petitions and how do we fix the system, especially if the system is controlled by mainly male politicians

who, as you can see from Boris Johnson's track record of women, clearly don't have much respect for women. We'll keep on fighting and we do make progress. Jolie and Pregnant and Screwed are amazing and they'll come back from this. But it does take time. And I think there are things we can do at a more kind of immediate level. So I spent much of the last 10 years campaigning for the sex and relationships curriculum to be completely overhauled. And finally, finally, we won that fight after about four different governments being involved in it. So it is now compulsory for schools to teach about issues like healthy relationships and sexual consent, which it simply wasn't before. But what that looks like is still patchy, right? Because there isn't really fantastic funding or training or resources. If you think about it, PSHE isn't

a kind of specific subject in its own right in the way that people train to be chemistry teachers or physics teachers. So you've still often got that really important information being delivered by perhaps an embarrassed math teacher who hasn't had great support to train him on how to do it. So I do think it's worth parents directly asking schools if they can see what the curriculum is for RSE, what they're going to be doing, what kind of external organisations they'll be using to support them, because there are really good organisations that we can suggest go into schools that can help. Beyond Equality is a fantastic example of this to encourage your school to think about. They train mainly men, young men, to go into schools and talk to boys about all of these kinds of issues, but in a way that is supportive and empowering for them, that gives them that

space to talk about their anxieties and fears they might have, but very much from a kind of feminist perspective and ethos. There's another one called It Happens, which is a fantastic organisation that goes in and does really good sex and relationships education. There are lots and lots of them. The Corriton twins who did the period campaign, they go into schools and talk about this stuff. There are so many people out there who are able to go in and talk and support schools. So that's a practical thing parents can do now within the system. They can say, I know this curriculum's changed. I'd love to hear what the school's doing. And by the way, have you heard of these great organisations that could come in and help? You know, that's a kind

of concrete way to try and make sure that your school is addressing this in a positive way. And you have the right to ask about that as a parent. I think many of us kind of often feel nervous, but that's something that you can do actively that goes beyond how we raise our own children at home. But I do think that that's really important as well. That's really good advice. Thank you. I know that we've talked and talked, so I'm going to let you go. but I'm really excited for your new book. When's it out? So it's called Fix the System, Not the Women. Yes. And it's out on the 12th of May. Thank you so much. And also just thank you for what you're doing, because I know how much online abuse that you face as a result of everything you're doing. And I, for one,

I'm so grateful. And like I said, you've played such a big part. Even before I knew who you were, I knew about everyday sexism. I got involved in the everyday sexism hashtag. Yeah, I know that I'm very grateful and I know that this episode is going to be so valuable to so many mums and hopefully dads as well. So thank you for your time. Thank you so much for having me. Laura, go, because I have a question from you about sleep. So I thought, you know, take it back to motherhood and babyhood. And I know how busy Laura is, but I do love the idea of joining a lesbian coven. I was actually speaking about it with a mum friend. I was like, how great would it be if we all just lived in a house together? The guys can be there if they want, but how much would we get done as mums if we like shared our own load? But anyway, as always, I love hearing from you. And I wanted to share a message

this week from Kielsey. She left a review on the Apple podcast and she said, I've just started listening to this podcast. Welcome. As I tried to get my little boy to nap, the only way he seems to sleep at the moment is in the car. This podcast has been a great listen to whilst aimlessly driving. It's great to hear views of other mums about topics that are so relevant to me and my motherhood journey. Thanks for speaking about these things from one sleep deprived mum to another. I am definitely still sleep deprived and I always get asked, do I have advice for babies sleeping? And the short answer is no, not really. But from my own experience with it, I think the main thing is remember that each stage isn't forever. And also I was so anti-routine like when I became a mom, I think, cause you know,

I've always like, I was like, I'm so spontaneous. I'm such a free spirit. I'm so, I love just to go anywhere. And I hated the idea of being trapped in the house for naps, which to be honest, I still do. But I do wish that I'd got Alf into a routine a bit sooner because for the first year of his life, he didn't have a bedtime and he never slept until we slept. So in my head, I was like, oh, he just doesn't need that much sleep. I started speaking to sleeping bunnies about ways in which to get Alf to sleep in a holistic way, because obviously each their own, and this is a whole other podcast episode but i personally never wanted to and never do want to let him cry to sleep in any capacity and they have actually been amazing for us so even though now we are still very sleep deprived and alpha is still

up throughout the night we do get from 7 p.m to say 10 11 1 a 1am actually yesterday, but for his Nana, not for us. And now it actually allows us to be a bit more spontaneous because we know that we do get our evenings back, which has obviously been great for our relationship as well. So I think it's like, don't be afraid to reach out to people for help, but also follow your own boundaries. Know that sleep is not forever. Everything is a phase. And I also think share the load. So at the moment, like I said, Alf goes down around seven to 10 or 11. And then I always try and settle him back in his cot, but we're just not there yet. And to be honest, sometimes it's just, I get so tired. I always sit on the chair for about half an hour. And I know if I bring him into the bed, he'll just go straight to sleep. And then he's up and down throughout the night. Last night,

oh my God, this is something I'd like your help with. He drinks milk from the Tommy Tippy cup, but problem is it's free flowing and he always covers me in milk. So any tips there I would love. But yeah, so because I'm up and down throughout the night, then when Alf wakes up at the moment between five and six, which is a fresh hell in itself, Tommy does that. So I think it's about finding something that works for you. Obviously, if you do have a partner, like sharing the load a bit, don't be afraid to like go to someone for help or ask people to stay over and help. And like, that's what Tommy's mum is amazing. She'll sometimes come over and do the night shift, which I feel really lucky for. But in terms of advice for helping a baby to sleep,

I am definitely not the one. If anyone else has advice, please, please message. Tell me the secrets. But also I feel like every adult sleeps. I'm looking forward to the teenager days where they just want to sleep in all night, but then they'll probably keep me up in the night for other reasons. So like I said at the beginning of the podcast that my friend Jazz said,

they are only that age for one season. So yeah, I hope that gave you some hope or not hope, but at least I'm glad that the podcast is helping while you drive aimlessly. And I'm just impressed that you get to drive because that's another thing I've been fighting my fear about with getting behind the wheel of a car, which maybe could be a podcast episode in its own right, if enough of you think it would be an interesting topic. So yeah, I hope you loved today's episode as much as I did. I'm so happy that Laura agreed to come on. I literally just think that she's amazing. And it's nice to hear practical tips

about how to raise sons and daughters instead of just like really pointless memes that float around on the internet. If you're listening on Apple podcast, then please, please leave a review. Obviously, a five-star rating helps as it helps others to find us as well. And don't forget, you can get in touch on WhatsApp. We have had a few voice messages it's free and send us a voice message or just a message on 075 999 27537 so that's 075 999 27537 and talking of spreading the news don't forget to tell another person about the podcast especially if you think that they would benefit from a particular episode and i'll be back with another episode same time same place next week