Mum's The Word! The Parenting Podcast - Kara Tointon

Episode Date: October 2, 2022

With a second baby on the way, Ashley chats to actress Kara Tointon about the decision to have a second child, mum guilt and judgement, the power of your own voice and how we can get out of the people pleasing cycle. Get in touch with your questions and experiences at [e-mail]----A Create Podcast Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

well hello i am fresh back from my holiday i got in about 9 p.m last night alf was so good on the flight i felt really calm really relaxed i had a lovely time away and then at one in the morning hysterical crying from alf's room which i could not stop until five in the morning and i had to be up at eight in the morning for work so i'm here but i'm struggling that is i feel like hashtag mom life through and through um but i'm really really excited about today's guest and to get to chat to her about so many things she is an incredible actress both on tv and in theatre and she actually won everyone's favorite tv show bbc strictly come dancing and um i'm going to say arguably your most important role is that you're a mom of two

it's cara toyton hello thank you so much for coming in especially because I feel like we've had a similar 24 hours well it's funny because you've pushed on through and I was about to give up wasn't I so you've made me feel a bit I uh text on the way here saying I can't do it but I've I've pushed through but to be fair I get it so that's why I was like honestly I so understand like if you need to cancel and you on the plane you were having a a nice time for it and I thought you lucky thing but then it all kicked off later on so did you get a flight yesterday so we were flying back from Norway yesterday and we had to do a transfer and the kids were brilliant and And then while we were on the first flight, they said they'd put us automatically on a later flight

because of a delay. We ran. I mean, I haven't done that much cardio in a while, so it's really kicked me into shape. But we ran, we made the flight, but they wouldn't let us on. And then from that moment, it was a downhill spiral of doom. And I ended up being that mum with their youngest screaming for one hour 40 of a one hour 50 flight and it was oh god i i knew it was coming i think everyone it's it's one of

those things you have to go through but it's tough it's really hard isn't it because i remember to pre-mum ashley i cringe a lot like my attitudes on lots of things I've talked about before you know I had this kind of like weird like inner misogyny against mums even though I consider myself a feminist but I would say really cringy things like oh they shouldn't let babies on flights or so annoying like they need to shut their babies up and now I'm like I had a lovely lady next to her so Tommy was by the window he got the lucky seat um i was in the middle and then this lady and i said straight away i'm so sorry if alf isn't good and i hate the word good because i'm in my babies and she's like don't worry those three are mine and just pointed opposite so she was so nice and it just makes the world of difference doesn't it because what i

have come to realize is no parent wants their child to be upset on the plane and forget everyone else on the plane or of course that is a factor because you're embarrassed because you don't want to be that family but you don't want your child to be upset so it's almost like i don't really care about you lot but like you can also just put your headphones on and relax well i do realize that that nowadays most people have actually got the headphones so we can relax a bit but you so you highlight those um caricature sort of stereotypes of the man that's you know shaking his head and you hear that sort of beams at you and i have a way you do sort of zone out of it don't you and most people i have to say so genuinely supportive and every i was the same sorry sorry sorry sorry and um but i think it's just something

that you have to get through and um once you've got through it then you plan for the next time but they do get better i think it's just one of those things but you had it through the night didn't you well i actually on my way so i went to cyprus it was a really last minute holiday tommy and i decided we were both like burnt out and we wanted to get away. On the way out, so we went from Gatwick to Paphos, a man actually did come up to us and asked us to stop our baby from crying. And all I'm going to say is it's very, very lucky that Tommy was between me and that man. I made a rookie error. And if you are planning to go with your child, baby, do not forget Calpol because it really does help them with their little ears i'm sure but i forgot calpol i since found out from a lovely air hostess that messaged me on instagram

that apparently ba have calpol on the plane so you can actually ask well that is something to remember yeah but alf was like really upset and it's horrible because we all remember being children and not knowing how to pop our ears like I definitely remember I used to hate taking off and especially when they're too young to even give them sweets. You know, you can't have that chat with them at that stage. And it's the worst. So terrifying for you and for, you know, what it just is a magnified, horrific moment. And so what did you say? Well, luckily, like I said, Tom was between me and him. But I was like like i'm trying

to stop him from crying like i don't want my child to be upset and i really wanted to be like i mean i don't even know if i can use the f word on my own podcast but i wanted to be that person but also i was a bit like how embarrassing if like nobody knows the context and like not that i've not that I presume I'm recognizable by the way, but if one person were to be like, you'll never guess who is like kicking off on the plane. But it's the one moment you'll lose it. You know, when you, you, sometimes that's the thing.

My wife was really good at the flight and I was, I was getting a bit, you know, I was, I was tired. And, but he said, if, you know, if he'd seen the guy, then yeah. I was going to say, I wonder if our paths crossed. Because when you gave birth to your second child, Heli, you gave birth on the 8th of January in Chelsea and Westminster. I gave birth on the 9th of January in Chelsea and Westminster. But I came in on the 8th.

Because I think I heard that you were there. But it was like the day after tomorrow. When I say that, it was derelict, wasn't it? Did you find it really eerie? So weirdly, because by the time I got to hospital, I was just in like such a world of pain. By the way, don't worry, I'm not going to put a trigger warning because we don't need to talk about births.

They just put us straight into the birthing suite. And then weirdly, I'm not going to put a trigger warning because we don't need to talk about births they just put us straight into the birthing suite and then weirdly I still find I'm not quite sure why but we left hospital after four hours um so I actually didn't go into any of the wards at all obviously Heli was my second so because of my first experience of birth, I opted for a C-section. So it was a really strange experience from my first going in and it being quite civilized and like having your nails done or something. And I felt very odd about it. And because ultimately, although it's a chilled, you know, you can prepare, it's bizarre going in one day and coming home with your baby the next. But I think at that time they were pushing people to get home as quickly as possible. And actually, I think that had a big aftermath effect for me. It was too soon

because I'd forgotten that the first time around I did have that 24 hours in hospital where I guess I healed slightly. But you forget so quickly, don't you? And that's why I'm so chuffed that you're, you know, sort of flying the flag for this talk and the aftermath. Because it's incredible when friends give advice or you hear advice and you think that doesn't quite sound right. And the reason why it doesn't sound right is because things move so quickly. So you're only able to really give advice on the moment you're in now, because everything else is a blur.

And unless I wish I'd written down everything because did you? No. And I'm the same same because even when friends will be like i'm pregnant what do i need to know and i'm like shit uh and then in my head i'm like get sleep i can or you know all the really annoying things that you are like just you wait just you wait i will not turn into that person but yeah even like newborn gifts for friends or friends babies i'm like i can't I can't remember anything I literally can't remember so yeah I feel like writing it down is actually a good tip for new mums because you forget don't you and actually a lovely gift a friend of mine bought me which I never wrote but

I need to is um she just bought me a lovely I think it was from Papier but I mean other notebooks are available and she said write down um letters to alph like for the future and start it in pregnancy and i just didn't do it but i might start doing it because even like first words and you know you forget so quickly don't you and then you look back and you're like oh they were so little or i wonder what their first word was because you kind of forget all the yeah well that actually comes into the app that i've developed and the reason why we did it it was all those things of memories and keeping um sort of voice notes to document the importance of voice back in I guess it was 2019 when I had Frey my first we were discussing at the you know it's a life-changing thing isn't it when you have your first child

and we were thinking about things. And at the time my mom was quite ill and we were documenting little conversations, recipes that mom cooked us that we loved and we would voice it all on the recorder. And it's something that I'm not ready to listen to yet because i lost my mum yeah i'm really sorry by the way i didn't see that oh thank you yeah well that's my um that's my sort of venture of being pregnant and having my my children has kind of been around that dynamic of introducing you know loss and life and right of passage and such a contradiction between the two. So when I hear conversations of birth, et cetera,

I have such a different sort of outlook on it because when I was pregnant with Frey, I guess I didn't even think about being pregnant because I was on this journey of fighting this other cause. And I guess ordinarily I would have planned and prepped and done all the, you know, the kind of practice hypnobirthing courses and all of that stuff. But I just wasn't, that's not where my head was at. Um when I had Frey, we had three months with my mom and we would just talk. And so we decided to develop an app. And Marius and my partner,

his grandfather has this beautiful voice. And I said, we must get him to record a story for Frey and his native Norwegian, because it's beautiful and it would be lovely to have. So all these conversations sort of spurred on the idea of an app that's storytelling basically, but memory building. And as we've developed, it sort of came out in actually weirdly at the beginning of the first lockdown. And that was a bit of a tester. We saw how people were using it. And the way I use it is with Frey.

So I log onto the app and you can either narrate many stories that we've rewritten to suit audio and enjoyment of reading because reading in mind is quite different to reading out loud. So there's that option with it, or you can narrate yourself. And that's what we're sort of, you know, pushing for people to get on there and narrate and send to their family and loved ones. And it's open. So if someone's really good at the speaking and storytelling, they could be the voice that we listen to. So it's a kind of public audible for enjoyment. But the way I use it is that with Frey coming up to nearly four,

we go on there and we discuss what we've done in our day or our week. And it becomes this diary of what we've been up to, but also a diary of the development of his voice. But that came about by accident because I hadn't thought that that would be of interest. But when I started listening back and to see the change, it's so quick. And then I sent it to my sister and she loved it. And then I could see that there was something to that and that you would come back to it in years to come. And it's kind of in a safe space and we tell each other stories. So I'll say something and then he'll repeat it back but he

really even at that age enjoys thinking of new things to say so it's become something um quite special accidentally really and it's become something that I didn't realize it would be at the beginning I feel like that's really beautiful as well because in other cultures and something that we've potentially lost in our culture is the kind of idea of storytelling and stories even coming from your elders. Even when I became a mum, I thought a lot about what my parents were like with me. And you've never thought about that before, but you suddenly think, oh my goodness,

they went through this. Wow, they were once here with this bundle of joy and then I became a teenager and all of those issues. But whatever it might be, or my granddad died when I was two and my parents would always tell me stories about how much he loved me but if I'd have been able to listen to like I guess his storytelling to me it's such a lovely thing to have to look back on yeah you and you it's life happens so quickly and and as I say even now I'm

not ready to listen to the recordings we had of my mom. But the fact that they're there is just something that's really comforting to me. And I look forward to listening to that with my kids. And so, yeah, it's been really interesting. And I've got so many ideas with it because I'm dyslexic and with the kids, you know, learning to read and all these things. I can't wait to, you know, get developing and get some new ideas on board. And so it's a bit of a journey. What's the name of the app, by the way?

It's called Tell App. Tell App. And I'm going to make sure we put all the information below so everyone can check it out. But it sounds amazing. I'd love to talk to you about your journey becoming a new mom, if we rewind all the way back to that time um with fray because

like for me personally i really i really struggled with becoming a mom and even though i feel like i was so excited in pregnancy and i know that everybody has different journeys due to different circumstances with birth but the first four months for me i was like this is the most amazing thing in the world. I want 10 children. This is amazing. I can't believe I used to say I didn't want children. This is so wonderful. And I don't mind the sleepless nights and all of this. It's all worth it. And then I kind of reached a point of like totally burnt out. And I think it coincided with the end of lockdown. And then I was suddenly like, oh my God, everyone's back out. And I can't

go anywhere because I'm stuck at home breastfeeding and you know even as a DJ like DJ work started coming out again and I was like I can't I tried to do it I actually did um board masters whilst breastfeeding which to be fair looking back it was way too early I shouldn't have done it but I was so worried about missing out on that old life but what was your experience yeah well i guess we will be the um the school of the covid time and um i hate the word so you know when you hear it the c word but not the first c word you think of no that's true definitely the second because it was for a a pre-lockdown baby and then lockdown came. And so you had both experiences. And what was really strange, I suppose, was that with everything that happened the first time around,

in a way, when you losing my mom, you know, when people say I felt like my world stopped and the rest of the world kept going. And then the world actually did stop exactly as almost a year later. And so I was put in this bubble that I kind of needed to be in. And I was grateful for that, even though obviously it was horrendous and you won't wish it again, but you took from it what you took from it. And it was, it was just such a strange thing, wasn't it? But then when I became pregnant with Heli and it was through lockdown, I was very similar in that I think we were just in this little cocoon and we were allowed to be, and it was okay. And then as soon as the green light went, it was just a bit overwhelming. And I, similarly, I got offered a job and you thought, oh God, well, yeah, I better, you know,

I've got to do it. And then in hindsight, it was way too soon. I was, yeah, breastfeeding Helly and doing eight shows a week. And it was a show that was a lot of fun. It was very lighthearted. It was the Windsors. It was really fun, but I took it on thinking it was a bit of a breeze, but I ended up sort of hanging from ropes and flying. And I was like, I didn't know this was going to be Cirque du Soleil, you know, in the comedy of it. It was just really full on and I, and it was too much and Heli wasn't sleeping. And I, yeah, learned a lot from that and you can't go back and do it again, but I wish someone had said, no, you can't do this but we are plunged into this new realm of believing we can do everything and I think in the next 20 years there'll be a conversation which I think you're starting that

I can can we do everything and what what is the sort of knock-on effect of that you know going forwards and we can only say in hindsight hindsight, because I think I had a vision of parenthood being what my mum was, but I never had that discussion with Marius because I just thought that that's what it would be. But of course we don't live like that anymore. I wonder if, you know, we're really lucky to be in the generation that we're in where, you know, feminism is working its magic there's still a way to go but we can do both how possible it is is another conversation but the expectation is still on the woman and this is obviously like really generalizing and talking about

heterosexual relationships but i don't know for me personally like tommy and i have always been equal in our relationship so when we found out we were having a baby, we were like 50-50 parenting, yay. And then he went back to work after his paternity leave of two weeks. And then I was stuck at home. And I think it also coincided, I don't know with what football tournament, but maybe the Euros or something.

So he was going out. And by the way, he's really respectful, but football is like his biggest passion in life. And it was on and who am I to deny a guy going out with his friends to watch the Euros? And it was a really exciting time for him. But I remember getting this like major FOMO being sat at home, but also the kind of resentment that built up and the arguments that we were having. Because I was like, it's not fair. Like you wanted this baby as well. And I'm stuck at home and I'm having to do everything. And I kind of suddenly felt like I'm back in the 1950s. And then Tommy would like do the basics, like pick Alf up and people would swoon over him. It's so nice to see a hands on dad. And I was like, I've got stitches and I'm doing it. And people barge me out the way. So I feel like we're in this weird stage where we can do everything but we're also expected to do it all and i'm hopeful that in the next 20 years actually it'll be more

i say equal obviously there is like a biology that exists like if tommy could have breastfed breastfed breastfeeded breastfed um i'm sure he kept saying i wish i had boobs it's so true because i think they would they would really enjoy being part of that but yeah i'm similar to you i i think i becoming a mother the feminist movement within me has really kind of riled and because it does doesn't it it's kind of i've always it's been there but it's just come to its you know form i think as well like being god this this when i say this and it's true but it sounds so weird to say being a more experienced mother now having a toddler so weird i still find it so weird that i'm a mom so saying that sentence

um what i've realized is those first that's it let's say even the first year like for me personally and i'm sure for lots of people, it feels so intense. And at times you're like, what have I done? I don't recognize me or my life anymore. And it feels sometimes like a prison, especially if the baby's not sleeping and you're just in this cycle of like, I don't know what day it is. I don't know who I am anymore. And, you know, going through all these like mental, physical, psychological changes. But now I'm like, oh, it actually does come, that chapter comes to an end.

So maybe I'd get less caught up in worrying about the day to day of that and actually be able to relax and enjoy it more. Did you find that with Heli that you were able to enjoy it more the second time around? For sure, I were able to enjoy it more the second time yeah for sure i was able to and of course then there's the dynamic of having your eldest and your youngest and they're at different points and then you feel guilty to each and and that and you think oh should we have left a bigger gap and all these things but what is the age gap that so about two and a half years so that i would say it's better it's an a nice gap because fray was able to kind of you know be be involved in a kind of he knew what was going on and that was really good

and i know that i can see the sort of dynamic between them is so lovely already and but that's going to get easier as they do the same thing there's a lot i want to talk to you about around becoming a mum for the second time yeah um mainly because i yeah oh my god oh my god i've heard exclusive stuff exclusive um so i was in london today um doing tests and seeing the baby kick i don't know obviously yet the sex but will you find out um yeah i will because i'm such an impatient person and i like to know and to prepare and actually with alf i had um an element of gender disappointment which i know is like we shouldn't say and blah blah blah but i i think

i was so longing for a little girl because of all the things i've been through and i had this vision i was gonna have this amazing relationship with a girl and now I'm actually delighted and actually the second time round whilst I would love to think I'd have a little girl I'm actually just happy just to be pregnant and to have a healthy baby and to experience it again and to experience out of lockdown it's quite funny actually because I think the trouble with not knowing is it's only exciting if you genuinely have a sort of 50 50 my sister's just had her first and so it what's funny about it is that because on joe's side my sister's partners there's only boys and every professional even down to the scan they accidentally said he at one point so

they've just gone along thinking well it's it is a boy and everyone who said that you know the shape game and everything oh you're having a boy so when they finally had the girl i mean it was really brilliant but it was just not them for six because they had no that just wasn't so it's only kind of they hadn't even decided on a girl's name it's gone that far so it's quite that's so fun so did they leave it as a surprise they left it as a surprise and for me that was the one thing that i could sort of um because i didn't really believe it was happening i needed to know just to grab hold of it a bit and i'm also i'm similar i just have to know because i can't i can't but what what was it like experiencing pregnancy the second time because that's what i find so different now and

there's an element because the first time was lockdown for me, but I feel like I just don't even have time to think about it. And at the first time, I was like, I mustn't lift a finger. And now I've like got Alf hanging off my hip at all times. Exactly. I think in a way it's a really nice thing the second time because you just, you're so, the chilled Richter scale of, is down here compared to, you're just worrying the first time about everything aren't you and you just remember

the feelings but some people have different pregnancies don't they each time so I mean mine were really similar the morning sickness was very similar and so I um I kind of apart from that one bit I actually you take your wins, don't you? And I really enjoyed being pregnant. And so- What was it like later on with a toddler? Yeah. I think that's the bit is that you think, oh, the first time around I could just relax and, you know, so now, and then that time you just, you haven't got a choice, but you just got to carry on. That's what I'm worried about. Like, especially cause I had really bad pelvic girdle pain the first time around i mean i couldn't even go to sit on the loo on my own tommy would have to like help me down and i'm like what am i gonna

do when i've got a really big bump and we still rock out to sleep in the nursing chair i mean he's way too old but we enjoy it but i'm like when i have a bump like where's he gonna fit like there's barely enough space for him just like wrapping around make it work within the um no but you yeah that's going to be something that i think i don't have are you what there's a time where you're not allowed to lift anything okay so i guess we have to figure it out by then to that so he's prepared for it and tommy will have to i'm actually thinking of doing a toddler bed but i feel like that's a conversation for another time because but i can imagine him enjoying bit like lying down with us to sleep as opposed to the rocking because i mean he's way too big for us anyway no but it's it's so does he sleep so what do you mean

so basically for the first year he was in our bed and then there was like a really long transition of me sleeping on a mattress with him next to his car and now he goes in his cot but as long as we rock him to sleep first it's like the ceremony of sleeping yeah everyone says like the second one you'll just have like thrown in there it's funny isn't it because at the moment fray i still sleep with him a lot and i've never been one to plan or have too many sort of regimented directions on anything because i think circumstances circumstances you do what you do and eventually they grow out of things i suppose that having two means that it forces you to do certain things but in a way that's also helpful that it kind of you know you've got no choice but to like move on

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many things that i said when i was pregnant of like i'll go back to work in this amount of time or i'll do this i'll never let my child sleep in my bed i'll never do this i'll breastfeed for six months or whatever all the things that we say we actually don't know and i never thought i would be the person to go sleep for 12 months because i was like even when my friend used to come around to my house, she was like, oh, I'm a bit nervous because I've left the kids with like a babysitter from an app that I've not met before. And I was like, what's the problem?

It's fine. And now I'm like, I can't leave him. Even with people he knows, I'm like, but you don't know his bedtime routine. And it's such an, isn't it, of these statements you make to yourself and out loud that you think, oh God, what, I didn't have a clue. it also then spurs on to other things subjects in life that you have these

statements and you think until you know and you're going through it you have no right really to make any statement because you do what you do and you do your your best I mean I was in so at Christmas I suddenly had this double buggy and i was going around liberty with my sister and the kids and in liberties it's beautiful and i just wanted to experience that beautiful magic of christmas and i apparently my sister i think you become immune to sort of wraths coming towards you but my sister said that woman just said what were they thinking bringing that in here? And it's true.

I mean, like you said, I would have gone, what are they thinking, the twits? But I was in my bubble and I just, you still have to do things. And you just, I think, you know, you can't not go out because you've suddenly got two kids. And I don't know what my point is. No, it's funny though, isn't it?

It's like really recently, I don't know if you saw, there was like this big, I think it started as a tweet. And then as it does kind of was sensationalized all over the press that a comedian at the Edinburgh Fringe Festival said that his show was ruined because somebody took their child into theater and they didn't stop crying. Which by the way, even as a parent, I understand that's really shit. I don't think I would take my child to the theater and they didn't stop crying which by the way even as a parent i understand that's really shit i don't think i would take my child to the theater but i understand why people do probably should have left at the moment they start crying but it happens um so i understand

his frustration but i saw this article in reaction to it being like mums need to realize there's a place for children and there isn't a place for children. So I was hooked. I was like, okay, yeah, I understand that. So then I clicked on it and it was like seeing mums taking up, it was like sitting on the streets, having coffees with their prams, taking up space in the pavement. And I was like, sorry, would you like us to, during like one of the most life altering experiences of life where you feel so vulnerable and you want connection with other new moms or even just your old friends or whatever it is you you want you don't want us to go outside like you don't want us on pavement and then it said restaurants and i was like oh again i understand adult only restaurants would be very

tempting if i had a night off to tommy with to, I'd be like, I probably won't go to the Rainforest Cafe. I'll go somewhere nice where hopefully there's no children. But like, can we presume children aren't allowed in restaurants? And I was like, wow, like people are really unforgiving. But again, if Tommy walked down the street with a pram, he'd have probably the same woman who wrote the article swooning, being like, oh, so nice to see dads out with their babies. Lovely. Hands on dad.

Daddy daycare. Does Tommy notice it? He notices it because I point it out. Yeah. Like I said to him, he went to LA for work for a week. He works in tech. And I think actually your partner works in tech. Yeah.

So I said to him when he got back I was like did anybody ask you he was looking after the children and he was like oh it's the children I mean Alf I was like did anyone ask you he was looking after Alf and he was like no and I was like that's funny because if I ever get a DJ gig or an event that's the first question that people ask like who's looking after Alf and I'm like the other parent is that okay and they're like oh that's so nice that he helps and I'm like he doesn't he doesn't help he he literally is the other parent it's it's so funny and i'm i are you an apolit because i'm naturally an apologetic i've got a friend sophie who everything that she goes through she's already on the sort of

that she goes through. She's already on the sort of, I guess, the relaxed foot of if anyone sort of comes with anything like that, it's all very chilled. Whereas I'm on the front foot of apologizing for it. And it's sort of on the plane last night, the air hostess at first, she came over and said, is he not well? And of course it was like nearly nine o'clock at night because of you know the delays etc and it was just way past his bedtime but then you go on this rampage of of explanation and and then you think oh and you're you're then suddenly in this kind of you're just apologizing for everything and i wish that could be eliminated but it's sort of instilled in us sometimes you know what i've actually learned or taught myself i used to be such a people pleaser and i've learned a lot not to apologize um especially i feel like as a woman in in business i feel like i would always start

emails like hello sorry to trouble you sorry for even emailing sorry for existing um but yeah now i really try to be assertive but also weirdly i i feel worried about what people think in lots of spaces in life but motherhood almost gave me this new fight especially breastfeeding and all the kind of controversy that surrounds it as if like it should be controversial at all to feed your child however you want to feed your child um but it almost gave me more fight to be like no like this is my right and like you know if i take after a restaurant i have just as much right to be in that restaurant as anyone else and also children aren't good or bad they're children like and when did we learn and i put myself in this bracket by the way because like i said earlier i was the most

judgmental person about children before i was a mother and i cringe now because i'm like when did we learn and i put myself in this bracket by the way because like i said earlier i was the most judgmental person about children before i was a mother and i cringe now because i'm like when did we like expect children to not be children and even people who hate say they hate children or don't want children which are perfectly valid um they were still they were still children at some point and also their mom or dad were those vulnerable parents at some point as well and their siblings might be parents or their friends might be parents so it's like why do we where does but where does that chip sort of go missing that yeah the understanding that this is life and this is the only way we're here yeah so i feel like we shouldn't apologize for our children being

children you're absolutely right because i i feel that it's my default i've i've crossed that point but the default in tiredness is to revert and that's when i sort of you know get agitated with myself because you shouldn't because you're almost letting us all down if you start to go on no i don't think you're letting anyone down but i feel like it's a good thing for all of us especially mums who do feel like so apologetic or i think because as well there's a lot of not nastiness aimed at mums but like judgment aimed at mums like the idea that a woman a mother shouldn't be on the street with a pram like what would you like us to do where should we go like do you just want us to sit inside until they're four and then come back out into the world?

There'd be like zones, wouldn't there? Like just motherhood zones or, you know. And actually it was Maris because last night I said, maybe they should think about having a sort of child zone on the plane. And, you know, then we wouldn't have that sort of meltdown of guilt. And he said, well, why though? Because actually no one care or no one should care so yeah i'm still like oh i hope i'm not next to any other children

and tony's like you have one and i'm like i know but then i don't if i if i have a moment of peace i don't want to disturb by someone else's child so you're only immune to your own child's meltdowns another thing i'd like to talk to you about by the way um especially because i am still trying to i mean and i know you can't plan births but i'm still trying to decide what route i would like to go down with the birth of my second and i was recommended after a birth debrief that i should have an elective c-section because um I was stitched up wrong and the size of Alph 9.5 pounds the first time and the difficulty of that um what was it like for you I know we touched on it earlier but I hadn't told you that I was having

another one then so what was it like for you to compare the different experiences um because I think with Freya you ended up having an emergency c-section but obviously you went in openly yeah yeah i was all for the birth center and um at st mary's which i visited and it was fantastic and i thought it's just idyllic and i wonder if they looked at me then and thought because i when you go to sort of be introduced to it all i was sat on the end and there was that you know the the 15 other couples um who had all been to classes and all very prepared and i was at the end the only one who had literally done nothing but was open to just giving it a go and i just just thought I'm one of these people, I'll do my best

in the moment. And I didn't feel I, at that point in sort of what was going on, I could take on too much information. So yeah, I was all up for the au naturel. And then sort of three days later, after going, you know, back and forth being sent home, they ended up, I had to be put up to the maternity ward, ended up having everything epidural the next morning, just about to have him. And his heart rate started to drop. So it was all very rushed and it was an emergency cesarean. So the second time, it was quite good actually because the doctor came and she said, I don't want you to be put off if you have any more children

because the likeliness is that your body's done it all now. So actually you could really give it a go. But, and this was something that I really debated for a long time because I really wanted to to try but because everything personally had been quite traumatic I just decided for me I'd already been through the c-section um and you know with advice i always think that's really big as well um that i'm really i don't give myself a hard time about it anymore because it is what it is and it felt really bizarre going in for an elective but it was the right choice for me and he was fine and and you know they

we got there and they said have you got a playlist that you'd like to I mean it's just so it's the total opposite and so I think if they've suggested I mean how do you I'm actually still in two minds because when I take myself back to my first birth I was was begging for a C-section. And, you know, I really felt probably a similar story to you, that the trauma of that, I wouldn't be prepared to go through that again. And by the way, I really strongly believe that any birth is a birth. And you have the right to celebrate that birth. And I have friends that have had cesareans and they had really beautiful births. And I would love to have that beautiful birth.

But I think because I've got Alf, I'm worried about what the recovery would be with a C-section. And would I still be able to pick him up and all of those things? Well, yeah, I mean, I was so shocked because it all happened and it was out of my control. I was pretty shocked at how quickly I've recovered, touch wood. I mean, that's not always the case, but I was, you have to take your wins. And I was really lucky that I stayed in for two nights, I think. And then I recovered really quickly, probably too quickly. I was driving three days later. I didn't realize you weren't allowed to, but I mean, I was mental. I didn't, I weren't allowed to, but I mean, I was mental.

I didn't know anything. And then someone said, no. So, and I guess I feel that maybe some, it's so personal, isn't it? But some C-sections, you can have a quicker recovery than natural birth. And obviously there's just different you know um pitfalls and and positives to each um and i think that don't rush into making any decision because it will sort of just come when it comes and you don't need to rush into that i don't think um i don't know do you no i think no i don't think i do yet but um no it's good advice and

also nice to know that you can have like a beautiful oh yeah for sure my second experience the only thing that i i wish i'd fought for was to stay in i i remembered my first birth and how quickly i recovered and i just assumed that the second time it would be the same and had forgotten the actual timings and had rushed it on the second one because would be the same and had forgotten the actual timings and had rushed it on the second one because we were going home. And I think actually that then put me back a week and I couldn't move. But had you just taken the initial sort of 48 hours, I reckon, of rest, then it's quite a quick recovery. I feel like that's good advice for everyone who gives birth, no matter how they give birth.

It's like, try not to do too much too soon. Cara, thank you so much. It's been so nice to talk to you, especially because you're the first mum of two that I've gotten to speak to since finding out

I'm soon to be a mum of two as well. Thank you. And thank you to all of you guys listening to Mum's the Word, the parenting podcast. I hope that you found that conversation as interesting as I did. And if you did enjoy it, then don't forget to hit you guys listening to Mums the Word, the parenting podcast. I hope that you found that conversation as interesting as I did. And if you did enjoy it, then don't forget to hit the subscribe or

follow button. I always feel like such a YouTuber. I need to find like a better way to say all of this. But yeah, if you subscribe or follow, then you never miss an episode. And as always, I do love to hear from you so you can get in touch. either you can email in askmumsthewordpod at gmail.com especially if we've covered topics that you found interesting or maybe you want us to cover something that we haven't i say us but like it's more than just me but me and my guests um or you can even leave a voice message which is free on whatsapp and the number for that is 075 999 27537 and that is exactly what lizzie did so this is her voice note i'm getting in touch with an average follower of yours for years and we also went through pregnancy and childbirth around a really similar time. My little boy Isaac was born in February,

and I know you had your little boy after he died in January 2021. I'm sorry for all the noise in the background. I'm sitting here on holiday. It's given me a real opportunity to sit and just reflect on many things. Isaac, I'm listening to lots of plays of your delightful podcast. Something that I've been thinking about, and I don't know if this is the right forum to get your view on sexualities, um

but with lots of the things that i've been listening to in terms of issues that you've raised and another sort of various parenting podcast and also speaking to lots of my friends who are moms something that we all seem to be thinking of this idea that, like, for example, if you go to an NCT room or whatever, that it's incredibly outdated and actually fairly sort of, I don't know, perpetuates all those socialistic issues that you've talked about and things that you raised in your toxic masculinity podcast with Matt Hinton,

which was just brilliant. I keep playing back to this idea, and I just have no idea how to even think about making it work but anyway I can't do it I'm just going to be like yourself and I just feel like there's such a massive opportunity to create a different approach to sort of education around childbirth like that focuses in short on childbirth and like what to expect but equally fully equipped dads with information to support their partners better through the postpartum period whether it be like i don't know through what to expect in terms of how your relationship might change

equal like physically what happens to a woman after childbirth and you know how that manifests itself then the mental challenges you might face in like postnatal depression and post and postpartum PTSD which i've been diagnosed with both of those things and I know that you have experience with them also anyway I feel like this could be a voicemail that rambles on and on and on but as I say it's just an idea

and I just feel like it's such a massive opportunity and somebody like you who is incredibly influential and such an amazing voice for women I just wondered if you had any thoughts on it. But if you don't have time to get back to me, then that's absolutely fine too. I'm going to do a bit more sound fetching around this

because I really want to find a way to make it happen. Anyway, lots of love. Keep up the most amazing work. And thank you for being such an amazing spearhead in terms of the campaign to just, yeah, make things better for mums and women more generally oh that was really nice thanks Izzy really nice you didn't do NCT did you I didn't no and I would have done had things been different so that was just my personal experience did you no I did um

I mean it was lockdown so I actually did an online course just between Tommy and I. But from speaking to people on the podcast, I don't know from experience. And I believe that every NCT group is different. But I have heard rumors and had confirmation from friends that in their areas that when it comes to talking about vaginas and what happens, they send the men to get a cup of tea because obviously they can't hear about vaginas and um and then they kind of give this really brief information and i think it is really good to be prepared for birth but i think you know there's only so much really that you can prepare for and i and i think from what i understand like and from what i learned from the course i did in hypnobirthing they kind of prepare you for afterwards with the baby but not so much for for you and what you're going through and i mean i only just found out i'm 35 years old and i only

just found out that vagina is not even a vagina it's a vulva the outside bit and you learn something new every day and i well no i knew but you're right you don't really know enough and and even as mums we still say and i say we very generally we still call it down there and i remember in my pregnancy someone saying i really recommend putting evening primrose oil down there up there and i was like sorry can we just confirm are we talking about the vagina or the bum because i really don't want to spend time putting oil up the wrong place but even after going through this like we don't use biological words and i think our generation is like a lot of like shame around isn't it we're like i'm really i'm really shocked about the sending the men off i thought we'd come through that yeah and all of all i know is that i

agree with you is he that i think there is space for there to be something more updated and i'd love to have been prepared for some of the resentment that i would feel um and i guess like i i mean i say i'm lucky because i have a partner who helps, which I mean, that should be that should be the standard. But I feel like we were totally unprepared for so much of it. And luckily, I was comfortable talking about prolapse and fecal incontinence and all of those things that I experienced. And luckily, Tommy's mum was a nurse. So he's really not flabbergasted if I can he doesn't like poo doesn't make him queasy yeah but in some terms a lot of partners would be and

yeah it's it's talking isn't it and it's I mean I suppose it's different from group to group and town to town and how people go about it but it is just a discussion and she's right you are kind of raising all these discussions and when i see you on your instagram talking about things and you know you realize that you know and for me talking about my experience with birth and grief all coming at once it's only when you really hear someone talking about it who's been through it that you kind of think about it isn't it and it helps and we still kind of have this announcement of like mother and baby doing fine and before i was almost i was excited to give birth first time because i was like i can't wait to find out what happens to the vagina because no one talks about

it i know that's like so weird but i was like finally i'll know a really good season of something because it would always just be like mother and baby doing fine. And I was like, how can they be fine? They've just pushed a baby out. Like what happens? No one talks about it. I know, I love to know. Yeah.

So true. But I think it's a really good comment and definitely food for thought. And funnily enough, my pelvic health physio, Marta Kinsella, who I talk about and praise all the time, she said actually the biggest issues in relationships with new mums, and she said to me, by the way, I'm sure she said 18 months, but she was like, most parents don't have sex after childbirth for an average of something like 18 months.

And that's really interesting to me because I still think there's this sort of um like pressure that we feel as women because of the old backdated like if you don't service your man he'll leave you for someone who does and i remember with tommy being i'm really sorry i just like really worried about my stitches and like i'm just not in the mood yet and obviously i had alf in the bed like breastfeeding and he was like do you think i want to have sex with you like i also saw what your body's gone through i'd be so scared of hurting you yeah and i was like oh you're not just like a caveman with a stick like yeah so no but you're right i mean nobody talk talks about it and that's when you think of your parents and you think and and i even asked my brother did you not really sort of and they couldn't remember either i think you all go into this little bubble and then you forget about it

and move on but the point is that by progressing we have to talk about it and to make better partners and to you know i think it's um a very cultural thing. You know, all the Scandinavian countries, I kind of really look up to them because they really, you know, Marius being Norwegian, they really value the partnership in terms of maternity leave and all those. Yeah, it's more shared, isn't it? It's shared.

And they get 100 hours a week of childcare for free. It's all these little things. And you see the knock-on effect that they're all just a lot more relaxed and they're not these sort of hamsters on this wheel killing themselves because it's in the early stages, it's all invested. I know some countries can afford to do that, et cetera. And there's a lot of, you know, but when you look into it, what's important and then where do you pay for it later down the line? And I just, you know, because I've had the introduction to the Scandinavian

kind of way of doing things, it just sort of makes sense. And I can see how it's so valuable and the man suddenly becomes part of it and then you have you have to share in it because you both take off six months between you and you juggle it however you wish i am hopeful as well for a government that starts to take a women's health more seriously and i think it is starting to happen you know like the ochenton report coming out and i've seen you know um i was actually assured in my birth debrief that actually they were putting more funding into the maternity wards. God, I've totally lost my train of thought. But childcare, I think, you know, childcare is becoming so expensive in this country that it's going to start being seen as not just a woman's problem because actually it affects households.

And also it makes more sense beneficially to have two people earning as opposed to one having to quit their job so that's obviously a very long story for another time but I thought it was a really good voice note Izzy so thank you so much for bringing it up and I know that my pelvic health physio Marta did actually speak with someone from NCT about trying to put more postnatal care into the course and at that point they weren't interested but maybe that's something for everyone who has done NCT and wishes that it had been a thing maybe I'm sure there's a place where you can offer feedback and if enough of us bang the drum so to speak and I think we can also make an effort to stop saying

things like down there and start talking a bit more and trying to break down the taboos of uh childbirth and recovery and it and also reminding people that it's not just about losing weight and there's so much more that is like the tip of the iceberg because everybody is so different in their recovery and weight probably doesn't even come into it at all but again that's a podcast for another time there is um but five hours honestly i will just keep rambling just a quick just a quick voice note um but honestly i'd absolutely love hearing from you and things like that are amazing and maybe um that is a podcast that i can look into maybe i can get someone from nct on and uh wrap their brains so so thank you so much to

you guys for listening and for messaging in and for Cara for being an amazing guest and I'll be back with another episode same time same place next week