Mum's The Word! The Parenting Podcast - Kate Lawler

Episode Date: March 14, 2022

Trigger warning: Postnatal depression and suicidal ideation.DJ, TV and radio presenter Kate Lawler joins us this week to tell us all about her upcoming book 'Maybe Baby: On the Mother Side'. Kate and Ashley are chatting all about social media and parenthood, depression and suicidal thoughts in early motherhood and how to best help other mums in this weeks episode of Mum's the Word! The Parenting Podcast.Get in touch with us at [e-mail] with your questions, feedback and guest suggestions, we love to hear from you!---A Create Podcast Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

I am so so excited to have today's guest on the podcast and I know you will be as well especially if you're around my age because this person was catapulted to fame and definitely into my heart in 2002 when she won big brother I, I definitely watched you live on E4 probably like 24 hours a day. I was obsessed. She's got a huge personality, an amazing presenter. She's on Virgin Radio currently. She has a podcast that I absolutely loved called Maybe Baby, where she kind of talked about whether she wanted children or not, which for me was such an amazing and revolutionary thing to listen to as someone who actually never even considered wanting children until I met Tom she was on MTV's Celebrity Bumps

Famous and Pregnant which is actually really jokes because I remember when it came out I was pregnant I was like oh FOMO but yeah I loved your whole experience you're hilarious honest on social media and I think everyone can agree that we have laughed and cried with her on her motherhood journey and to her daughter Noah who's now one almost one um and she became a mum in her 40s there's so much I want to talk to her about and mainly the fact that I've had four hours sleep I I say because of her, it's because of Alf, but because of her, I was very lucky to get a copy of her new book

and it was on PDF and I hate reading on my phone. So I was like, let me just flick through it because I won't read it all because I can't deal with reading on a phone. I read the whole thing. I went to bed at one and Alf woke up at four. It is amazing. Yay.

It's Kate Lorna. Hello, Ashley. Oh my God, one intro and I'm so sorry for keeping you up at four. It is amazing. Yay. It's Kate Lawler. Hello, Ashley. Oh my God, one intro and I'm so sorry for keeping you up all night. Four hours sleep. You must be knackered. I'm knackered, but I do feel I have to blame Al for that

because he has started getting up at 4.30 every day, but we're working on it and he is doing very well with sleep. It's only in the last couple of weeks he's started going down to bed at seven like before that it was 11 p.m so just to get my evenings back has made such a difference wow like my sense of self and getting to watch tv again after not watching tv for a year like so um but honestly your book um i actually messaged you last night didn't i when i was on

like page 168 i was like page 168 it I was like page 168. It was like midnight. Go to sleep, Ashley. Go to sleep. Ashley, don't. Carry on reading my book. No, I just think it's so brilliant. And it's also the first time that I've heard someone vocalize the depths of darkness that they went to, that I went to. And it's interesting because you said that, you know, I find it really hard to talk about because I feel like when you say it out loud, it sounds so like extreme. Oh, my goodness. But you talked about the fact that you haven't discussed it online, but you were having suicidal thoughts. And I know we're getting straight in with the dark stuff, but I felt very suicidal from when Alf was about six months to about 11 months and i would obsess over these like suicidal thoughts of maybe i should just go upstairs and hang myself and actually no if i do that then i'll leave out after that mom i can't leave them without a mom like and i

would it was like this weird thing that i'd go over and over and over and i felt like i couldn't talk about it so to see it written down and to know that someone else went through it is awful as it is I just found so much comfort in it and I sat last night awake like just thinking about every all the topics that you raised I'm so sorry you went through that as well and I'm sure you and I are not that we won't be we will definitely not be the first or last people to have had those thoughts in early motherhood and I genuinely did not think that to feel as low as I did, despite all the years of kind of not wanting a child and being ambivalent for so long and then sort of considering it and then being fully into and embracing being pregnant. And

I just assumed that I would really, really enjoy those first few months because there is a kind of misconception, but there is so much pressure on you to enjoy those first few months because of what everyone tells you about this newborn bubble that you then sort of start to ask yourself, what newborn bubble? Like, I'm not in a newborn bubble at the moment. Will it ever come? For me, it didn't. And I'm sure for so many women, it is blissful happiness and just such a wonderful time, those early days where you're just spending time with your partner and the baby. But for me, that never happened. And I was so confused and so wracked with guilt because of the feelings that I had. And also in shock because the pregnancy had

been such a great pregnancy. I was really lucky to not have any serious side effects. I had all the side effects that come with pregnancy, but I was, I was prepared for those and I made light of them, but I really did think that I would enjoy the newborn days. Like everybody told me I would. And you know how, you know, when you're pregnant, a lot of mothers will tell you, Oh, enjoy those newborn days because they fly by so quickly. And when they get to toddlers, I mean, Russell Kane on my podcast, the first series, told me how much he loves the newborn days and how much he struggled as soon as she turned into a psycho toddler. But yeah, I was in shock that I was even having these thoughts. And I found it so difficult, despite being a really open person on Instagram, I found it so hard to express myself and in that way and talk about a feeling so, so low. Because I guess most of the time on Instagram, I am very upbeat.

And despite anything going wrong in my life, I'll always make a joke out of it. So that was one thing I struggled with talking about. And for some reason, I've never really been able to talk about taking medication on social media either. I find that really uncomfortable talking about and sharing. I just, I don't know why I just do. So those are two topics I didn't really share, but it is just, it's so common. And I think that was one of the reasons I really felt like I wanted to write the book because there are women who have reached out since I've said I'm writing the book and since I've been on quite honest and open about my journey with Noah so far. And they've told me that back in their day, these are mothers with children who have gone and fled the nest and gone to university and now grown up and maybe even have

children of their own. And these are mothers who have said, I felt like that back in the day, but there was nobody I knew that was telling me that was normal. And that's what I want to do is kind of normalize the feelings that can come with being a new parent. And I'm sure there are books out there that have discussed postpartum psychosis and postnatal depression, but I just want to keep that conversation going like you have as well on your social media, which is great, Ashley. It's funny because I feel like I know you because you're right. You're so open on social media and you're really good at being very funny. I feel like I'm just so dry. I think that's such a good book because yeah, you're right. There are other books out there,

but I found myself in the middle of the night Googling, is it normal to hate motherhood? Is it normal to regret motherhood? And I actually read some books that were so controversial when they came out, but they were like studies about women who hated motherhood. And by the way, I'm so pleased to say that I am now loving motherhood, but this has only been in the last two weeks. I feel like when Alf turned one, it was like a light bulb moment and we actually went to Mauritius at the end of the year and to be honest like we couldn't really afford it it was very last minute but and I knew that there would be like a sense of like oh you're on holiday again but I knew I needed it for my mind because I was scared about what would happen if we went back into

another lockdown because there was all that talk, wasn't there, around Christmas about another lockdown. Tommy had his last bit of paternity leave to use up and I was like, I can't. I don't blame you. I'm scared myself of what will happen. And I feel like since then, I just love everything. But for anyone listening, I just want to kind of give hope

that it can get better. And I hope it gets better. I remember following your journey really closely because Noah was born on the 7th of February. Yeah, she's the 11th. She was early, but she was due on the 22nd. But she's, yeah, the 11th. And Alpha is the 9th of Jan. And similar to you, I'd never, ever wanted wanted children and to be honest like in the dark days

I was angry at friends because when I first got pregnant it was so weird but and it's awful to say now but I never even considered enough that the option was to keep him or keep it as it was at the time and we were in the middle of lockdown and I found out I was pregnant and it honestly did not cross my mind I rang I rang my friend who's got two kids and she knew straight away. And I was like, what am I going to do? Like all the abortion places are closed. And I hate even saying it now because now I know it's out. It's like a horrible thought to think.

But I remember her saying, you know, that you could keep it. And I was like, me? I'm too young. She was like, you're 33. I was like, I'm too young you're like you're 33 I was like oh okay and I think maybe because I didn't get that chance to mull it over like you know you had you had your podcast maybe baby like you got to discuss it with people and I felt like with me I was like well how bad can it be no one regrets motherhood and that might have been part of the reason that I struggled so much because I hadn't really done my due diligence and I'd maybe I then started to really think like oh my god like maybe I would have been

happier it's really hard still for me to dissociate what how much of that was like lockdown and how much of that was having a baby because before lockdown I was djing like four nights a week I was traveling around the world yeah I kind of almost not blamed out but I thought motherhood was what took that all away from me but actually it was probably like the climate that we were living in you're right yeah how did you make the decision then to have alpha not go the other way do you know what it's so weird I think once she put the thought in my head because it's so weird to say like stupid to say that it never crossed my mind but it's like you know the other day I wanted to get my finger what's the word this baby brain

measured and I said to Tommy I'm going to quickly run into this ring shop with me and because I need to get my finger measured to get this ring and when we came and I got both of my middle fingers measured and when we came out Tommy was like you're so weird and I was like why he was like well I was right there like you could have got your ring finger like measured and I would have known your ring finger and I was like why do you do you want do you want to know my ring finger and he was like well obviously I don't now and he was like I just thought you might have because I was there and I was like if you want to marry me I'll tell you my ring finger like I don't know things just don't that like marriage marriage and baby have never been like on your radar and then once

feed was planted and actually I didn't tell Tom straight away and it was kind of like annoying because I had to wait for pregnancy tests

to get delivered because obviously it was lockdown so I was waiting for these like pregnancy tests from Amazon seeing his reaction

made me feel really excited and it was almost like I went from zero to hero so quickly and And then it felt like fate and like, oh my God, the universe has taken the decision out of my hands. And this was always how it's meant to be. And I must've been like the most annoying pregnant person

because I felt like I'd been like blessed by mother nature. And I was just like, this is amazing. I love it so much. And actually in the newborn stage, I'm that person that you described that you envy because I was just like, wow, like, this is amazing. I love every moment of it. And he slept on me for three months. Like, I wasn't interested in routines. I wasn't interested in what anyone else was doing. And I feel like he gave me this sense of, he was like my purpose at a time when everything else kind of got taken away with lockdown and I loved him so much which is also why I was so devastated when I was kind of at the same time seeing what you were going through and then it got to four months and I don't know if like the exhaustion caught up with me or the fact we opened the

lockdown opened again like the world opened again and I realized like oh my god like life has really changed I'd also moved out of London to Essex which I never thought I would have done and I think then I was just like oh my god shit and then I just spiraled and I was seeing that everyone else it felt get a grip on things like so even people who had struggled in the beginning it was like they seemed to get hang of it and I was like what is wrong with me like and also people forget don't they in the newborn stage I feel like people are still quite mindful because it's a new experience and they know to ask are you okay are you getting sleep would you like some cooked food but gradually

those offers stop obviously because yeah you're getting on with it and you're supposed to be getting on with it yeah people expect you to have like figured it out a bit and if you're not enjoying it I felt like a lot of shame around that because nobody really wants that oh you're you are you loving being a mom and in my head I was like no there's so much I still think it's such a taboo subject to say that you're not enjoying it and I like I just want to say as well before I carry on talking about how much we've not enjoyed the first year or how hard we to say that you're not enjoying it. And I just want to say as well, before I carry on talking about how much we've not enjoyed the first year

or how hard we found it, is that I love Noah to pieces and I am so lucky to have her. And I feel grateful that I've been blessed with a healthy child. And there's not one moment that's ever passed where I felt like I couldn't bond with her or I didn't love her.

But I still think it is quite a taboo subject in saying that you don't enjoy being a mum, no matter what age that is. But thankfully, I do think we're turning a corner and we're seeing more mums being very open and very honest about the realities of parenthood. Dads as well, about how hard it is and how it's not all what you see on Instagram. And I think social media has a huge part to play in people's recent decisions to try for a baby, because it feels like everyone's having a baby. And there might be a little bit of a baby boom going on, but I also feel like it's quite a dangerous place, Instagram, especially when you see the grid and you see new moms and new dads and family photos, even when children are older as well, about, you know, you just see snapshots

of people's lives and photographs of everybody looking blissfully happy, but it's not necessarily how it is. Like, for example, if I look back at my Instagram grid over the first six months of Noah's life, the grid actually looks like I was having an okay time. I look at the pictures I posted and I wasn't, I'm not really one for posting a picture of me looking like dog shit on the grid I just don't do it I save that for stories it's like insta versus reality these stories are reality and it's just kind of like me out and about with Noor in her sling but little do people know that I took ages to get her in the sling and she didn't really like being put in it but then eventually I managed to get it and then I spent the whole time panicking that she she couldn't breathe in the sling and I was worried that she wasn't even comfortable or whatever. And then I asked Bob to take a photo of me. And then that

looks like I'm really happy in that moment. But I think people need to understand that parenthood is tough. It's tiring. It can make you really unwell mentally. It can make you unwell physically that you pour so much of your soul into it. And at the beginning, you don't get anything back. Obviously, you've got this beautiful baby and you can't stop staring at him or her. And when they start to smile, you do get more back, but it's just such a complex job. And there is just so many parts to it that I never expected. And you can read all the books and you can listen to podcasts and you can listen to all your friends' stories and observe with your parents being mums and dads and when you're not and thinking, yeah, I suppose it looks okay, but nothing can

prepare you until you have your own child for what it's really like and just how hard it can be. And I also don't want to scare people either because there are so many women who enjoy that newborn phase and enjoy the first year. One of the friends I have on Instagram who I've never met, but we're just friends. She said, just from what I know, any woman who's struggled in the first year will actually really enjoy the toddler phase. Because she said, from what I, from my experience, if you really enjoy the newborn phase, you tend to not enjoy the toddler phase as much. So I mean, I'm living in hope that I'm turning a corner and I'm about to enjoy this next phase. And I am enjoying Noah so much more now that she's

attempting to talk and she has more of a personality and she's becoming more independent. But it's still tough. She started getting up super early and we've had a week of no sleep. And we've actually had a really good run up until now because ever since I can remember, Noah has slept so well through the night and we've not really had that many issues apart from when she had her dummy and we had to take it away. But just recently we've gone through the worst sleep deprivation. And so I feel like I've gone back to the newborn days a little bit. I got a bit upset on Sunday, but I was on my period as well. I'd been out on Friday night. I'd had a lot to drink. There was a lot of reasons why I was probably feeling like shit. I think the book especially

is just, I want to make women aware and men that it can be really hard and you shouldn't believe everything you see on Instagram. It's such a hard one, isn't it? Because I remember when I was pregnant and I don't know how you found it on social media, but I would, I call them the just you wait. It's like any joy I experienced, people would be like, just you wait. Or like, I'm going to get my nails done or I'm going out today and I was wearing heels. Oh, enjoy wearing heels because you won't be able to wear them for 18 years or just you wait until you can't get your nails done and i remember being like fuck off everyone like stop shitting on my joy and also like i know it'll be hard obviously i didn't know how hard but i think what's it's a

really hard one because i'm really mindful i even had it last night when i talked about I thought it was really encouraging and positive because I was like I've been through this like terrible dark time and now I'm enjoying it again but I don't think I was prepared for the fact that for example people saying enjoy getting your nails done I remember like being like well obviously Tommy can look after Alf for an hour so I'll be able to get my nails done like but I didn't think about the fact that that hour of the day or two hours that Tommy can maybe have him I might have like loads of other shit to get done before getting my nails done yes so the nails are almost like not the priority anymore but I hate the fact that people put their negative experiences onto new mums or pregnant people

because everyone's experience is so different it's like even me and you like your experience is so different to mine and then I feel like you said you turned a corner around seven months so I was in I was in like the depths of despair around seven months and I it's hard because I don't want to like scare people who follow me you know so somebody messaged me last night saying, I've gone through fertility and I'm now pregnant and I'm sick to death of seeing mums focus on the shit parts. Like just enjoy it. You have to be mindful because it's like, I'm so happy for anyone.

My friend's actually just had twins and she's been on a huge fertility journey. She moved back up north because they had to sell their house to afford the IVF and amazing. But she is finding it hard. And she said to me, it's really interesting because she had IVF. She feels like she's not allowed to complain because she wanted it so much.

I love seeing people who are open about their journey because it made me feel like less of a shit person for not enjoying bits of it. I think you're right though. You know, your friend who said IVF, now she feels like she can't say how hard it is. I think regardless of whether you've had IVF or not, I think if you are a woman and you long to have a child, I think there is also a bit of a, oh, I've wanted this for so long. I've dreamt of being a mum for all these years. I've finally met the right person. I've been trying

for a baby and now I'm pregnant I I feel like I can't complain but actually like we complain as human beings we complain about everything complain about our jobs we complain about our partners we complain about the food that's not right in the restaurant like we're allowed to complain about our kids if we want to and I don't think that anyone should feel like they can't complain because they've perhaps been on a tough fertility journey. If you are finding it hard, then you need to either speak out about that, because it's actually what I've learned from being a parent is that your mental health is just as important as your physical health. I've never my mental health is, you know, it's one of those things I've just kind of always put on the back burner. I'm always like, I'll just go to the gym. It'll be fine.

But actually, when you're a parent, especially, I mean, everyone's mental health is super important. But when you're a parent, especially because you are responsible now for another human being, and there's so much mom guilt about, you know, I don't want the baby to see me crying, or I don't want the baby to grow up with a depressive mother and stuff like that. But it's so important that you speak about how you feel. And if you need help physically, mentally around the house with whatever, you've just got to ask for it. I found it so difficult to ask for help about, you know, on a number of things that was

just, you know, asking Bodge for help or asking if we could get help with maybe a night nanny once a week, just so I could get a decent night's sleep because we were in lockdown and my mum wasn't able to come and stay because she wasn't in my bubble. And I got so much flack for that as well. You know, I was really honest about having a nanny, a night nanny once. We had two nights a week. And this was when I was really struggling and I'd reached rock bottom and Bodge was like, enough is enough. We have to get help. Your parents are not in our bubble, so we're going to pay for it. And, you know, if it was Bodhi's mum coming to stay over twice a week, no one would put an eyelid, but because we paid for

it, I felt like I was getting such like such a hard time, which I thought was completely unfair because no one would say anything if it was your mum coming to stay or someone else coming to stay over, but because we paid for it, I just thought, you know what, I'm going to be honest as well, because I don't want, I feel like as an influencer or someone in the public eye you have a responsibility to be honest if you are getting help I think because otherwise you're then kind of like getting sleep and looking like you're doing all right people are like well she's getting on all right but they don't know that you're not having help do you know what I mean this is such an important point because I know people um influencers or celebrities whatever you want to

call them and they I know like a lot of them have like full-time nannies and great good for them but they don't talk about it because it's that worry that you know it's not relatable or whatever but I similar to you I have I have well I have a nanny that comes like five hours twice a week but that was the only way I was able to get my work done because also I was breastfeeding at the time so I he wouldn't have been able to leave the house and we don't have family near enough to be able to help and when I mentioned the word nanny like I didn't know there was like stigma and shame and all of that around like the word nanny and there was so much like oh it must be nice for you a lot I prefer to raise my child myself and I remember like feeling so yes I'm very fortunate that I could have a nanny for

five hours ten hours a week but also like I envy people that got to go back to work yeah there's such this huge judgment sorry to interrupt you it just bugs me that like you're if your mum's looking after Alf five hours a day no one would say anything because you paid for it. It's like, well, I'd love to be able to afford a nanny. It's like, but that person's probably got their mom or their dad or someone else helping. It's so common to have your parents helping out or having at least some form of childcare. I just think that the shame should stop. If you're in a financial position where you can afford to have some help, then you should be getting it because we are trying to do everything we want to do now as women. We're trying to work as well as having the job of a mum. And if you just want to be a mum

and you want that to be your only job, that's great. And I actually wish that I'd actually focused on that a bit more when Noah was born. I wish I'd just focused on the job of being a mum because I probably wouldn't have spiralled as much as I did. I was really naive to think that motherhood wasn't a full-time job before I had Noah, but it is a full-time job. And until you have a kid, you don't really understand that. My twin sister always used to have full-time mum on her Facebook page. I used to laugh at her. I feel really bad about that now. I'd be like, full-time mum, what do you do? Take your kids to the... I was so out of order to her and I feel really bad for saying that but you don't realize how much goes into just parenting even one child there's just so much to think about so I applaud anyone who decides to get help however that may

be whether that's family members friends a doula a nanny you've got to do what works for you and you shouldn't be ashamed into doing that. Push Your Peak is a brand new podcast brought to you by Whatbike. Join me, Louise Minchin, and some of the world's most incredible sports people to learn what it takes mentally and physically to push yourself beyond your limits. Whether you're an elite or everyday athlete, it can be hard to continually progress. How do you push yourself out of your comfort zone? Where do you go to find that inner drive? Tune in to hear these inspiring stories and take away the belief that you can achieve your own goals, no matter how big or small. You can find us wherever you got this podcast. Just search Push Your Peak.

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walks and hikes led by expert instructors on the Peloton app. Call yourself a runner. Peloton all access membership separate. Learn more at onepeloton.ca slash running. This is the presumption of heterosexual couples, but dads aren't asking each other like oh you've got help because it's just almost presumed that it's the mums at home and it's such an unfair assumption you know if you want to stay at like home and be a full-time mum I think you're amazing because I couldn't do it and hats off to anyone and like you I probably did judge before I was a mum like I didn't realize the work and I mean you literally don't you don't get a day off like that's what I learned when I have Covid as well I was like can someone take this baby so I can just be ill and watch Netflix like how am I meant to feed and look after a child

I'd be ill it's not fair yeah the judgment is real and sadly with social media I think it's amplified and everybody feels like they can have their opinion on what you do and why you do it and the decisions you make. But I've learned as well that you just have to accept everybody's free to make their own choices and parent the way they want to. And I see things on Instagram. I see moms and babies or dads and babies doing things like, oh gosh, that looks dangerous. Or, oh, I wouldn't do that. But I never actually say it. It's like, and you feel yourself judging and you're like, but well, that's my opinion. I definitely wouldn't probably be my three month old chip with gravy on it or

something like that. Do you know what I mean? But you wouldn't start, the messages people receive is so out of order. I've had friends who are in the public eye and who've, you know, messaged me saying I get so much shit like for doing stuff wrong or doing parenting in a way that they don't see is right. And I'm actually quite lucky because I don't get a lot of negativity on my page. I don't get a lot. I don't get a chance to read many of my DMs, but those I get around to reading, I never really get anything negative. And anything I do, I just block immediately. And that's what I think you have to learn. But also, I just think the judgment needs to stop as well. And you just need to accept that people are putting themselves out there on social media and they're parenting in the way they want to. If you've got nothing nice to say, just don't say it. I mean, I didn't have a clue that I couldn't put a muslin over the

pram when we went for a walk in the summer. And was first thing in the morning it was 9am such a beautiful day the sky was blue the sun was bright but we because the sun was out we put a muslin over the pram and I didn't realize actually that that's quite it can be dangerous I mean my mum used to do it with us back in the day but now it's because they can't breathe it's not a breathable muslin but people thought we were walking at like 2pm muslin over so everyone was straight away it was like she's gonna die she's gonna get like she'll it's too hot you're gonna suffocate her nobody had any idea it's like nine in the morning and it was only over her for like 10 minutes but still you learn that actually very quickly oh what can I post on social media like I have to

think twice when I'm posting is there anything in this picture that would make anybody say Kate you're such a bad mum I can't believe you've done that like I'm literally like is she sitting right is she holding anything incorrectly and you you kind of second guess yourself all the time and you second guess yourself even when you're not putting yourself out there on social media that's what else I found about being a mum like I'm constantly second guessing myself and asking if I've done the right thing or is she safe or is this right? Or can I feed her this? Is she going to choke? It's never ending, but it is getting better. Yeah. I find it really hard to like find the balance because people always

complain that social media is like this fake positive, you know, like, Oh, we need to see realness. But then when you kind of show realness, like people are like, Oh, stop scaring, stop scaring people who are pregnant. And then I find I really struggle. Like, I mean, now that I'm in a better place, I'm actually like a lot better with what people say because I'm not as like rocked by it, but we're in a terrible place

and you kind of just want to like hug and people to like you. And then you go online and someone's like, you're going to kill your child. And I'm like, oh God. So bad. But I find it really hard to share my journey and what I'm going through without like so for example when I was going through like breastfeeding

and all the challenges that entailed I always felt like I had to be like but obviously bottle feeding is okay but like of course bottle feeding is okay my sister bottle feeds like but it's this like assumption that when you talk about something that you would or wouldn't do, that you're therefore judging people that do it or not. And I find that like such a hard thing to navigate, which you don't have to do on social media before you're a mum. There's something about motherhood, maybe because we are all just like sleep deprived maniacs that take everything personally and are jealous of everyone else's wins. I don't know, but it's a hard yeah I think the I think the opinions of when you have a child like there are just so many aren't there everybody has an opinion so it's great because if you want advice I always go to social media because I feel like oh this is where I'll get some good advice but in the same

breath if you you know like when you say you're pregnant you're like everyone's like oh just the just you wait brigade oh enjoy your sleep now, you're like, everyone's like, oh, just the just you wait brigade. Oh, enjoy your sleep now. Cause you're not going to get any like, yes, they are right in some ways, but I would never say that to somebody who just fell pregnant. Like you learn, don't you very quickly, like what's okay. And what's not okay. I remember you messaging me actually, when I said I was sleeping really badly when I was pregnant, you might not remember this. Cause you would have been been, you would have, yeah, you would have just had Alf. But I was saying it was very near the end. And I was like, I'm sleeping so badly. Like I can't actually wait till now to get it because I genuinely think that I'll sleep better. And everybody was just like, you won't, you won't,

you won't. And you were like, I actually slept better when Alf came. I'm sure it was you who sent me this. And so don't let everybody scare you. And I was thinking, yes, that's great because people do tend to scare you. Sadly, it didn't work out for me. And I did sleep quite badly at the beginning. But I think there are things you just don't say to someone who's pregnant. I'm really careful.

So actually one of Tommy's friends has had a baby and they are in like the total newborn bubble of bliss times a thousand. And all I've said is that I'm so happy you're happy. If there's anything that you ever like worry about or any like challenges maybe I can help like come and find me and I feel like that's so much more helpful to know people are there if you need it as opposed and even social media I've loved social media I feel so lucky like for all the shit that I've gone through

everything I've shared I felt like I've got a community of people because actually like I don't have a lot of friends out in Essex and I and and I haven't had a lot of friends going through what I'm going through at the same time and without social media like and that network of mums like up in the night with me like it's been amazing oh you're so right it's um for all its faults um i like i want to thank everybody who's ever reached out to me on social media because i tell you what those night feeds where you are sleep deprived and you feel like you're being tortured just to get through it with anyone who's awake is incredible because you can't just ring your mom at 3am you can't just

text your friend who's also not not gone through at the same time as you but you there is always an army of women there awake doing the same thing, or whether that's with a newborn or a one-year-old or a five-year-old. And so many parents reached out in those newborn days. And it just got me through it, got me through it, even though I felt like I wasn't getting through it, if you know what I mean. The company that was there and the support and the positivity and the laughs, some of the stuff I used to post.

Like, for example, when I was like, I had a bit of snot dribbling down my face and I couldn't sniff because every time I went, no, I would wake up. And I was like, what have you done to not make your child wake up? And there were so many funny responses, which I put in the book, actually, because I was laughing my head off. And Bodge was like, was you laughing the other night, the last night in the nursery? I was like, yeah, I was trying not to laugh but I also think I'm going back to your point about being helpful when people have just had babies like my friend's just given birth she's had a beautiful boy and um she put on the group that she was off home after like a really long labor and quite an intense birth and all the girls were like enjoy enjoy your newborn bubble. This is the best bit. And I

was obviously thinking to myself, what newborn bubble? But I was, again, I'm not going to say you're going to find this hard. This is hell. I just messaged her privately. I didn't put it on the group. I just said, Hey babe, I really hope you enjoy your, your newborn bubble. And if there's anything, but don't worry if it doesn't happen. And if there's anything you need, if you want to call me at 3am, my phone's on loud. If you need anything at all, if you're struggling, I'm here just in case you need me, but I'm sure you'll be fine. Because I just, I don't want this. I feel like there's just this bit of pressure for women to kind of, oh, there's a newborn bubble, which I'm going to experience now. And if it doesn't happen, that's what happened with me. And I was thinking to

myself, why hasn't it happened for me? And like, what's wrong? Like, why, why didn't I get that newborn bubble? I think as we were in and out it happened for me and like what's wrong like why why didn't I get that newborn bubble I think as we were in and out of hospital for a few weeks maybe that's why it didn't happen maybe if we'd just gone home and been at home it would have happened but yeah I just I wanted to let my friend know that it's fine if it doesn't happen but um hopefully it will happen because I think so many women went through the same thing as me because I think I spoke about the whole newborn bubble thing on Insta and a lot of mums reached out saying I was exactly the same. And I didn't actually feel like I was at home enjoying anything.

It was just, it just went from bad to worse. And those newborn days just... My sister was the same, to be fair, and she was at home. She wasn't in and out of hospital. And she, I was so worried about her. And, you know, she had like latching difficulties and she was putting so much pressure on herself to breastfeed and i think because i um like breastfed that she felt like i would judge her and i was like i'm not gonna judge you oh my god like we

were all formula fed and we're fit and healthy i think there is like of course like i don't know but she had such a tough newborn phase um And then they just start to thrive around like four or five months. And that's when I kind of dipped and went in despair. Everyone's experience is so unique, isn't it? I think breastfeeding is such a big part to play in why people feel down. Like, I mean, you went through it a lot in the later stages, didn't you, with Alf biting and stuff. But I think breastfeeding is such a complex thing. Like, I mean, you went through it a lot in the later stages, didn't you, with Alf biting and stuff.

But I think breastfeeding is such a complex thing. And we all like there is this pressure and there isn't. I feel like no one ever really put huge amounts of pressure on me to breastfeed. But even just a comment can feel like pressure, right? Like my mom was telling me to formula feed as soon as I had issues. Bodge's mom was like, you have to breastfeed. Breast is best. She really like, that's what I did and breast is best. So even just that comment, and she doesn't mean it in any, she doesn't really mean to be negative, but you just feel like, oh, this is the most natural thing a mom can do. Like there's milk coming out of my boobs. It should be really easy. And when it doesn't happen,

you just, it's really, really hard to let go if it's not working. It's just, you know, everyone tells you how hard, and I talk about this in the book, how hard it is to breastfeed, but no one tells you how hard it is to stop. I really didn't want to stop. And I know you didn't either. You just, you feel so close when you're breastfeeding and it's really hard when your time, however long it lasts, comes to an end, whether that's a day, a week, a fortnight, a year, two years. I can totally relate to any mom who has to stop and they don't want to because it was a magical time when Noah was breastfeeding from me. It was so easy as well. It was really easy when it was easy. I'd just get my boob out and she'd feed and there'd be

no sterilizing and no pouring milk and doing all this and no expressing um but it just it can fuck with you mentally it really can you know what I think if I'd have stopped breastfeeding sooner I would have felt myself again sooner and it was this weird trap because I kind of really I I felt like at the time I only really enjoyed breastfeeding because that was when I felt the closest to Alf and because I hated like a lot of motherhood and you know I don't I don't enjoy like singing songs on repeat and I find a lot of it quite boring but I loved breastfeeding and I was so scared what would happen if I stopped breastfeeding because then I was like will I will I feel a bond will I will I like any of this um but because I did it for so long i felt like i didn't get any of my life back like

alf was you know was sleeping next to us in the bed and feeding every 30 minutes um which obviously meant that like tom and i weren't like well i mean intimate but all like doing normal couple things we weren't able to go out on dates because alf was always on the boob and i wasn't like going and seeing friends so i was feeling really isolated and i kind of felt like lots of other mums were I mean and again this is like why we shouldn't compare social media because you see other people's highlights as we've both said but I was seeing everyone else that felt like they were getting their lives back to normal and I was still like sat at home with my boob out just like still on the boob it's like why do we do it but you're right I think I mean you you might not be right but I you're right you might have felt more like yourself I certainly did and as soon

as I stopped breastfeeding I felt like I got a bit of my life back but you can you learn from your experiences and the thing is only you can stop when you want to like you can't ever think to yourself oh maybe if I'd just stopped soon I wouldn't have been so down because you have to go through that lots of people told me about post weaning depression so that's when obviously you can get really low when you stop breastfeeding and i was terrified of that because bear in mind at the time i was having these like suicidal ideations i was like i can't afford to get any lower like what the fuck like what am i gonna do but actually i think i might have had a bit of post weaning depression when i started weaning because obviously i was still feeding him but not as much and I think it was keeping me in this like

weird stage I struggled so much with that mum identity and you know this permanence of the choice that I'd made probably especially because I'd never dreamt of having a baby that the moment I stopped and for anyone that's worrying about it like when you are ready or when your baby is ready like I felt so much better and again like everyone's experience is different but yeah I feel so much happier now and I still have that amazing bond with Alf and I kind of wish some but again we I say I wish someone had said that but I'm also like fuck off with your advice yeah no I always I said to myself I'm going to look back and think oh do I regret it like not stopping breastfeeding sooner when it was such a struggle but I don't because I went I wanted to just push on and just try as hard as I could and it just it is what it

is you have to just go through the motions and you have to go through your experience and then look back at it and just think I did what I did. I did how much I could. And ultimately it isn't kind of our decision in the end. It is the baby. Like the baby will, will turn to the bottle or want the bottle more than the breast or the baby won't want the bottle, whatever. But as soon as I realized, you know what, it's not my decision to make. Noah prefers the bottle, just give her the bottle. And then when I did that the first few feeds, I felt sad because I wasn't breastfeeding, but I got over it so quickly. And we still have this magical bond. Like you said, it doesn't affect your bond, your relationship with your baby. A fed baby is a happy baby. And I definitely started to feel a lot better the

moment I stopped breastfeeding. So I wouldn't, someone said to me, if you ever had another child, would you breastfeed again? And I said, of course I'd try. And they said, would you put as much pressure on yourself? And I'd like to say I wouldn't, but I know I would because it's just one of those things that just feels like such a, it's that maternal instinct. You just want to do it and you want to be good at it and you want your baby to be good at it. But there's just so many moving parts that is really tricky to nail. And there's just, there's no reason to feel bad or down if it doesn't

work out but I can totally relate to anyone who does feel like that because that's what I felt I felt so sad that I couldn't do it and that Noah didn't want my boobs in that way so yeah I think you just have to live and learn don't you and I think it's so nice as well like we can follow so many different like mums and dads on social media because we can see that everyone's on their like unique journey. And most babies are happy babies, like eventually, even if they're not for a period. And I think that's what I love, like people like you who are just so honest and funny, even in like dark times. It's so it's so nice. And hopefully people will realize that they can follow people and enjoy their experiences and their differences without it,

meaning that they're criticizing anyone else's. But I'm so conscious of time because I actually, I've put Alf in the child minders for his first full day today. But I did want to talk to you about that before we go, because I know that you were going to put Nora in nursery and then you cancelled it. I bottled it. Yeah, I bottled it. I was too scared. And I know she probably would have been fine, but I had to go with my gut. And at the time I viewed four nurseries, I wasn't really feeling any of them. And then I went to this one and I really liked the ethos and I liked the fact that it was a forest school and the kids were all together. There wasn't a separate baby room and they all

went to the garden twice a day. And I thought this was going to be great. And I had no reservations and I wasn't scared at all. And I planned what I was going to do on my first day of her nursery. I was going to go to yoga. I was going to get my nails done. I was going to clean the loft windows and I was going to take the dogs out for brunch with my friend. And I was so excited. And then as soon as I did the settling in sessions, I freaked out and I felt like, no, I just wasn't ready. She's a late crawler and she was just about crawling. But when she was in her puddle suit and her boots, she couldn't even get up. So she was on the ground trying to get up into a seated position in the garden and crying because she couldn't. I felt sorry for her. And then she got whacked

on the head twice by a kid carrying a truck. And I thought if she can't even walk and there's kids that are walking around with all these, you know, one of them had a big telescope made of like 20 loo rolls, empty, sorry, kitchen roll holders together. And that was flying around. And if she can't even move out of the way, she's just like a sitting duck and she's just going to get doinked on the head loads. And so I went into overdrive and then I saw a kid put a stone in his mouth. I thought to myself, that could be her. Like the day before I did two settling in sessions on the first day, she put a Cheerio in her mouth. They were making little chains out of twigs and Cheerios.

And I said to Bodge, oh, what if that Cheerio was a stone? And he said, stop catastrophizing. It was a Cheerio. She ate it. So what? And I said, yeah, but it could have been a stone. And he said, but it wasn't, was it? The next day it was a stone, but it wasn't her. And I said, see, things can happen. And I just freaked out thinking to myself, what if she put stone in her mouth? What if she swallowed it? I just don't think she's robust enough to attend nursery yet. She's a late crawler. She was sitting down a lot. And for me, I just, I'd rather her go to nursery when she can stand and she can walk and she can just be a little bit more I don't know I will just feel that she's a bit more safe in that environment if anything was to happen it wouldn't be so bad so we made the decision to just delay it by six months provisionally and we're going to see where we are in six months and I can see her going when she's

two I just don't think it will be any time before that. But I'm pleased because last week was the first week she should have gone. And instead of taking her to nursery, I took her to a parent and baby group and it was great. She went on the swings. She did some soft play. She did some singing in the circle. They played so many games. She was on like a trapeze thing. It was just amazing. She had a great day. And we went home, we read books, we did some physical stuff. And I thought I can still give her all this stuff at home and I'm not going to be freaking out about it. But I realized that for some parents, you know, they have to put their children into

nursery and I'm not saying it's a dangerous place. They do, they're looked after by professionals who do this every single day and it's fine, but my anxiety has got the better of me. And I just feel, I feel glad that we did it because I'm better mentally not sending her to nursery and being without her so we're looking at childminder option as well which you've got obviously and I mean look you've got a whole day to yourself which I'm sure you're very busy you're working right now but um you must miss him because I can't imagine being away from her for a whole day it's so funny because I it's all i wanted was like just a little bit of

time in the house to get work done without him around and i've been so excited about it funny enough i actually tried to get him into nursery but i didn't realize there was big waiting list so i rang up on the thursday like hello i'd like to inquire about the nursery it was like the best rated one in the area they were like yeah when you're thinking of starting and i was like oh probably probably not for a couple of weeks and they were like yeah it's September and I was like September he'll almost be two in September and I was like what and they were like they were actually quite patronizing and I was like I had no idea nobody told me we didn't have any idea either you don't have any idea until you know right our doula doula told us, she was like, have you thought about nursery? She was like three weeks old and we laughed.

We were like, no. And we still left it to last minute, even though we knew there'd be waiting lists. When people would say things like that, I thought like, God, they're just like being uptight or something or like, relax. Like there's time for that. I don't have to think about that yet. Turns out, guys, if you're listening and you want your kid to go to nursery ring up do it now

don't delay the day they're born ring up but I think it's also so important that you listen to like your instinct and I got a really good instinct from this

childminder straight away and he's done a couple of settling in days and I've been there for a bit and he's that's nice and it's great

and I like how she is around him he's actually the youngest which like part of me is a bit sad that he doesn't have little friends, but the kids are so cute with him. But today when I took him there, I could tell he was like, he's teething and he was a bit under the weather.

And I could just see that he was like, not his best self. Like he, like he was, and he was like having little like cries. And I did feel awful. I was like, I feel so bad for walking away,

but equally like I've made quite a lot of plans. And I was just like, I was like, please, please, if he's upset, I'll come straight back. But I've just got a little video like of him. That's lovely. It is nice, but I do feel like it's what I wanted so much. But this is like the paradox of motherhood, isn't it? Like all I wanted was to feel a bit like

me again and now that I'm I've reached this huge milestone where I get to feel a bit like myself again I just want him again babe when I'm at work when I'm on the radio I ask bodge to send me videos and photos of her because I miss her so much and even though I'm desperate for a date myself I'm like bodge can you please send me a picture of her in the bath? Because I miss her. And he's like, you literally saw her five hours ago. And I'm like, I know, but I miss her. And you do, you want to be with them all the time.

But at the same time, you want to date yourself. I feel like that is it, isn't it? It's like learning what works for you. Because some people will be like perfectly happy seven days a week with their kids. But I feel like I like getting to miss him because there was a long period where I felt so trapped and I felt like I couldn't think and I couldn't do anything.

I prefer to be able to miss him. Yeah, I take my hat off to anyone who does the whole parenting thing only for five days a week and doesn't have any other job because I find it so hard on the day where I've got Noah from seven until seven with no help. That's on a Thursday. So on a Monday to Wednesday, I have Bodger's mum coming over and we have a nanny one day a week so I can do the Virgin show, which is like meant start at one, but I get home at eight. And those days I'm going to half with Noah. So in the morning I have a, but then on Thursday when it's just me with Noah all day, I'm like, crikey,

with Noah. So in the morning I have a, but then on Thursday when it's just me with Noah all day, I'm like, crikey, imagine doing this five days a week. I just, my head would explode. It's such a hard job just having them all day, every day. It's mad. But I think we're always going to have, you know, like you said, he's not Alf, he's not his best self today, the childminders. But I think that it's going to be the same when they go to nursery and to school, they're always going to have little bad days where they've got an upset tummy or they're not very well, stuff like that. We're just learning as we go, aren't we? It's weird to think that he might do firsts when I'm not there.

Yeah, that'd be weird. I'd be so mad. I'd be like, you bastard. I carried you for nine months. I fed you and you're doing all your firsts to someone else. I always think that when I'm at work. I'm like, she's going to do something when I'm at work and I'm going to miss it.

But I'll just pretend that it was a first for me. That's what we could do. But I'm really glad you've turned a corner because I feel like I'm getting there. And I always, do you find this? I always said that I hated, I hated, I struggled the most for the first six months. And then I said, when it got to seven months,

I was like, oh, this month has been so much better. I'm turning a corner. But when I got to 10 months, I look back at seven to 10 months and I still felt like I was struggling then despite feeling like I was getting, it was getting better. And now she's coming up to one. I think, crikey, even when I thought I was okay at 10 months, I don't think I really was. And it's only when you're coming out of it and you can look back and reflect, you think actually the whole first year has been a bit bit of a fucking nightmare if i'm honest with you like i've absolutely loved moments but it has just been the toughest year of my life i'm haggard

i felt like i was in like this baby bubble bliss for the first three four months where i was like i can't believe i didn't love i think i even did podcasts and i'd love to listen to them back i know i did like zoe hardman and yeah the made by mamas podcast and. I know I did like Zoe Hardman and the Made By Mamas podcast. And I think Alf was like a week or two old. And I was like, this is the best. I'm so happy. Like everything's amazing. And then, yeah, I think four to eight or seven months,

I looked back and realized that I wasn't very happy, but I was really, I was like trying and I still was like really wanting to. I knew I was in a funk. Like, I mean, when I was thinking about suicide and, and it was almost like even doing this podcast, I was like, I hate that my world has become about being a mom, but I have a mom podcast. I have to talk. It was almost like this self-fulfilling prophecy that the more I hate motherhood, but the more I talk about motherhood and, and it,

and now I know that there'll be like challenges and I know, I'm sure the just you are sat here like wow eight child I get to two and but like it's almost like now I know that there'll be shit times ahead a hundred percent but I feel like I'm a good mum and I'm okay with the fact that I didn't used to want kids and now I have one and I don't feel like I've been robbed of my decision like I still think you can live an amazing child-free life, but I'm so happy that I'm a mum and I feel like I'm so happy to have mum friends and I'm so happy to get to do the bit of the old actually that I

loved, but also I'm embracing being a mum. Whereas I think for a long time, it was that mother identity of like, I didn't even want to be a mum and now I'm a mum I hate it and I hate talking about mum things with mum people whereas now I'm like it's great and I fucking love it and I love the fact I've made this like amazing sisterhood of people and that you can like relate and connect and it's amazing it's so true I relate to everything you're saying you just you you constantly talk about being a mum and being with it's really hard to go on a play date or just go for a coffee with another mom and their baby

and not talking about talk about mom stuff I try and do it I try and I try and take the topic of conversation onto something else but you always end up talking about your kids you always end up talking about being a parent it just it's one of those things it just it's such a huge part of your life now and I'm the same as you like I love the fact that I have Noah. And before I had Noah, everybody used to say, I've had a quid for every time everyone said it. Everyone's like, it's the hardest thing you'll ever do, but it's the most enjoyable thing you'll ever do. And I used to be like, one more person says that to me.

But I totally get it because it is so hard, but you just, and you love them so much. But sometimes you're just like, oh my gosh, what have I done? What have I done? And then everyone goes, but you wouldn't be without them, would you? And you're like, of course not. If someone said to me, okay, this has all been an experiment. We can take away from you now. You don't have to have her anymore. I'd be like, get your hands on my baby. No, like I couldn't imagine a world without her. But also I think it's perfectly normal to look

back at your old life and miss it a little bit and miss the freedoms you had. And don't get me wrong. I think a lot of women still have. I mean, one of my mates, she's such a boss. She has two kids and she is always out. She's always out. She's always at dinners, at brunches, going to the pub. I mean, she just lives such a wild life and she still manages to keep her head screwed on. Whereas I just can't do it. I can't do it, Ashley. I went out on Friday night. I went to bed at two. I'm still recovering now. I can hear it in my voice.

It's Monday. I'm just like, I'm not, I can't do it anymore. Like, and I don't want to do it anymore, but I kind of do. Do you know what I mean? You just constantly think to yourself, oh, I miss my old life. But there's so many things I enjoy about being a mum.

And I'm really pleased that I had Noah and I wouldn't change it for the world. But equally, I just, I'm always going to be, I'm really pleased that I had Noah and I wouldn't change it for the world. But equally, I just, I'm always going to be, I'm flying the child free flag because I was so happy before I had Noah and I was definitely complete. And I didn't, I felt like I had, I definitely felt like I had a purpose in more ways than one. And I don't think any woman should feel bad for not having children. And I think the judgment for women who don't have children needs to stop as well, because gosh, when we were doing the podcast, people couldn't believe that I was even on the fence. They were like, but that's what you're here for. And I just think, no, women do

not have to have children to be happy and complete. We can be that without being parents to humans. Do you know what I mean? Yeah. I just think your book is amazing. And I honestly, I wish you're a bitch for not writing it sooner because I needed that six months postpartum and for anyone that is like in the thick of it and you're like struggling and you're, you're wondering if you're on your own, like regretting things or struggling with any part of it. Like maybe, maybe it's just a brilliant book and it's like in typical you fashion, it's like funny as well. And I think it's amazing. And I'm just so happy that you've come on the podcast. Thank you.

I even wanted to talk about C-sections, but we've not had time because I've got to go now. I've got to go and do a radio show. Thank you so much for having me, Ashley. Thank you for having me. Let's try and have a play date with our babies. This is my mum, Brian. No, thank you for having me on my podcast.

Yeah, let's try and have a play date with our babies and try not to talk about mum stuff. I'd love that. I guarantee you we'll last five minutes. Yeah, I'd love that. I feel like if you drink every time you don't talk about your kids, we won't drink. Right.

We'll be sober by the end of it. Thank you so much. Thank you. I'll speak to you soon. So obviously Kate had a radio show to record and I was on edge about Alf. So I wanted to just let her go and check in on Alf. But now obviously I wanted to read out one of your guys' questions. Hiya.

I absolutely love your podcast. I listen to it religiously. I found that it's really helped come to terms with certain emotions I've had as a first-time mum and made me feel a bit normal actually so I've got a baby boy called Mason who has just turned seven months we started the weaning journey a little while ago but we're ramping it up now so my question is how did you manage to squeeze in feeding food and naps because I constantly at the moment feel like I'm feeding him either real food or formula I'm unsure of what portion sizes he should be having for his age and I'm a little

bit wary of feeding him out the house actual food for lunch so just wondered if you had any top tips regarding portion sizes and feeding outside the house thank you so I would say that I am in no way an expert with with weaning and the whole process of it but I was very lucky that I was invited to Annabelle Carmel's house and I've used her recipe book pretty much from then and I love it I've bought a few of them a few different recipe books and Annabelle Carmel's is the one that I use mainly because I found that it was easy. I'm not a chef and I'm also not interested with time and everything to make anything too fancy. And this was a really good one. And I actually did a little bit of the purees and the more solid finger food but my only advice would be like don't worry too much because they get most of their nutrition from them well I think they pretty much get all their

nutrition from the milk so I was told just take the pressure off and to think of it as letting them taste and test and feel and touch food rather than actually eating it. And some babies will want to eat and they'll want to eat loads. And to be honest, Alf wasn't that interested in a lot of food. And it was so demoralizing when I would slave away at my scrambled eggs or whatever it would be and he wasn't interested. But now he loves his food and I'm really pleased that I kept just giving him the finger food to touch and I would normally do a little bit of both so say if I would make I don't know like let's say broccoli and spinach and sweet potato puree I would keep a little chunk of it out for finger foods and now

he's really happy to do both and I also feel like again I'm not an expert but don't worry about overfeeding them because babies feed when they're hungry. So just have it and offer it and try not to worry so much. And choking, I feel like is such a scary thing. And I think there's some really good first aid courses out there if you are really worried about that or really good YouTube videos. But what I will say is, this is what we are made to do, like to eat. So as long as you follow the advice in the books, Annabelle Carmel's has a selection of finger food and purees. And obviously, just pay attention. They are pretty good at figuring it out. And they do say it's good for them to gag because it gets them used to their gag reflex. But honestly, I feel like every parent is scared at this stage and you just honestly figure it out.

So I really hope that helps. Obviously, I am no expert, but I hope at least gives you some reassurance and a good little tip on the recipe book. And I hope you enjoyed today's episode with Kate. I absolutely loved it. I've honestly been so excited to talk to her since reading her book last night. And I feel like even more excited because my 11-year-old self, if I knew when I used to watch Big Brother 24 hours a day, if I knew I was going to be doing a podcast episode with her and we'd be mums to one-year-olds at the same time. I just love those fangirl moments. But if you enjoyed today's episode, then don't forget to leave a review. If you're listening on Apple Podcasts, I am still reading out Apple Podcast reviews as well. If there are questions or comments in there, obviously it helps if you

give us a five-star rating and helps others to find the podcast. And if you want your voice note read out on the podcast, then get in touch on whatsapp i'll leave the number again which is 075 999 27537 and yeah spread the news if you like the podcast help reach more people and i'll be back with another episode same time same place next week