Mum's The Word! The Parenting Podcast - Kate Moyle

Episode Date: December 6, 2021

Psychosexual & Relationship Therapist and mother of two Kate Moyle joins Ashley on this week's Mum's the Word Podcast! She's chatting about sex and intimacy during pregnancy and throughout motherhood.If you have a parenting question you would like Ashley and her guest to discuss, get in touch at [e-mail]---A Create PodcastSee acast.com/privacy for privacy and opt-out information. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

I'm back I'm back from my holidays and do you know what I feel like I could do a whole podcast episode just about going on holiday which I probably will do actually it was do you know what given how much I was worried about going I actually feel like it was a lot easier to be a mum and have a baby on holiday than it is back at home. I feel like it's been harder to adjust back to normal life. Like we were all inclusive in Mauritius and even just for like not having to think about the whole weaning process, it was amazing. And I came back and I was like, mash banana again for you at breakfast so yeah it it was great and like I said I definitely want to talk about the holiday in on its own episode really because I'm sure that

a lot of you want tips and tricks but I'm really grateful to everyone who reached out and um told me what to pack and what not to pack and we definitely packed above and beyond like I probably didn't need the portable blender given that the hotel made all the food but it was amazing and actually I won't lie since being back it's been really hard I know I've talked about this a little bit on social media but I think when I went away there's this, it's escapism at holiday, isn't it? So you go away and you're like, things will be better when I'm on holiday. Like, I'll enjoy it more when I'm on holiday and that will fix me. And I did, I did feel better.

Like, we had Tommy's parents there for the first 10 days. And that was amazing because, I mean, A, to hang out with them and have that, like, solid time. Alf loved having his grandparents there and his uncle. And then when they left, it was still really nice. But also Tom and I took advantage of the hotel creche for the first time. So we managed to have dinner on our own. We climbed a mountain. So it was so nice to have that option.

But to be honest, even having Tom around in the day, because obviously normally he's working, it just felt like a lot of the pressure was off. So then when I came back, I just went, I basically just had this huge low and it made me like really resent motherhood. I went through this real thing. I say went as if it's in the past tense but it's Monday today when I'm recording and I've only really just started to feel better after this weekend and a big part of it was actually chatting to Tom and I was like I just miss us I miss like not having to talk logistics not having to just think about the baby all the time which I mean it sounds so selfish because obviously Alf is like the greatest little thing like when he goes to sleep we are like we miss him like he's been so joyful especially now he is in the stage where he's starting to do things

back there was a lot first on holiday so if you say what do the wipers do he'll do like the swish swish swish because we sing the wheels on the bus a lot. He started clapping. He started imitating. So we get so much joy from him. But I was like, I just miss us, you know. And so I thought I would talk a little bit about relationships and sex. Because I feel like it's this weird taboo, isn't it?

It's so funny that you have a baby by sex, but yet nobody really talks about sex. And let's be honest, like pregnancy and postnatal, like you never see your body change so much. And I know from speaking to friends, like people feel very differently. Like some people have no sex life, no sex life or sex drive in their

pregnancy whereas some people do it all the time and you know even that very like final stage of pregnancy when people are like oh you get the baby out from sex and I was like I honestly couldn't have thought for anything worse at that point in my pregnancy so yeah really interesting topic quite a taboo topic I feel really like nervous and jittery, which is silly. So I'm putting that aside to welcome today's guest. which is mad because why is it difficult to talk about relationships and specifically sex, especially after having a baby? Because let's be honest, that is how babies are made. But I'm very, very excited to have on today's show, Kate Moyle. She is an accredited psychosexual and relationship therapist and certified psychosexologist who specialized in working with those who are struggling with difficulties in their sex life and sexuality, including those

in their 20s and 30s who are impacted by the stresses of modern life. She is the host of the Sexual Wellness Sessions podcast. And her goal is to help clients come to a better understanding of their sexual and relationship difficulties to work towards the sex lives they want. understanding of their sexual and relationship difficulties to work towards the sex lives they want which let's be honest after becoming parents I think that's what we all want and strive for because there is so much change Kate thank you so much for being this week's guest thank you so much for having me on um as I was you know just saying to you really passionate about this and I think for me the first thing is we when it comes to new parents or mums is we try and teach about everything to do with this and we talk about breastfeeding we talk about weaning we talk about first aid courses about sleep and everything and

then the only thing we don't talk about is sex why do you think we find it so hard to talk about sex in the context of pregnancy and postnatal life I think there's like a certain there's a certain irony isn't it because as you said sex is the way that most of us have our babies or get pregnant in the first place and I remember someone always saying to me it's so strange that people say congratulations and basically what they're saying congratulations for is you had unprotected sex when we don't celebrate that in any other area of our lives it's so funny I always think this about the phrase are you trying for a baby because usually it's like it's older people that ask you so say like your in-laws and they'll be like are you trying for a baby because usually it's like it's older people that ask you

so say like your in-laws and they'll be like are you trying are you trying and we're like we're trying really hard we're trying day and night we're really trying yeah but if you said yes we're having unprotected sex everyone would be horrified but I think Esther Perel who is the kind of queen in my world just talks about about how, why is it that sex makes babies and babies ruin sex lives? And I think that there's something in the lack of conversation around it that also sits in the

who is meant to be having these discussions. So it's not our midwives. It's not our GP. It's not our NCT classes. It's not our GP. It's not our NCT classes. It's not our partners. It's not previous mothers. So there's this kind of blind spot where sex doesn't really fit into the parameters of anyone who's teaching us. And we do need, well, I certainly did, teaching about how to kind of be a parent with a new baby. And I think it kind of falls through the gaps and is a blind spot.

And that leaves people really poorly equipped to know what to do with their postnatal sex lives or how to have postnatal sex lives or what to expect or what might be different. And that's just really problematic for a lot of people I think as well isn't it it's the the difficulty in communication so I feel like having a baby or being pregnant there's so many changes that going on like both mentally and physically and I don't know if it is like oh like a prudish culture, but why is it that it's not an easy thing to communicate between partners? I actually put on my Instagram that I was going to be chatting with you and so many people messaged saying, how can I tell my partner that I have no sex drive? How can I tell my partner that I have pain during sex? How can I tell my partner that I have pain during sex how can I tell my

partner that I feel guilty that I don't want sex and it's interesting isn't it because that should be in theory like a really easy conversation but it's something that we don't like we just don't feel comfortable talking about sex absolutely and I think it's always been the case. And we have this really polarized view of sex, which is kind of good sex and, we are quite honestly inundated with people who really need somewhere to go and talk about this stuff. Someone to talk about what they're struggling with, who they know that they can. And we have this kind of image of relationships. have this kind of image of relationships I do think it's changing very much for the better that they just work and they just happen and that we shouldn't have to put a lot of effort into it that we shouldn't have to intentionally have sex and it's just it's just not the way it is and we understand from research and desire that that really isn't the case but nobody likes

to kind of admit that they have to work on that bit and we kind of feel like if we're with the right person inverted commas that all of that stuff should just be happening with no conscious effort and sex education has never also been good enough so we then have even early messages really focusing on the reproductive side of sex but none of the rest of it and that doesn't equip us to know how to have these conversations either so again we have this this gap this black hole and that means that people feel alone in what they're experiencing they don't know how to change it they don't know how to get the confidence to do something about it and the isolation that they feel then causes more difficulties or more problems and with relationships we've got two people

so it's two people's experiences of that it's so funny isn't it because I actually remember vividly where I was when I found out that women could orgasm and I think I was about 13 and one of the boys had seen it in FHM and I was like no way and it was on I was like shocked because I was like this doesn't fit the narrative of anything that we've been taught and I was like what so tadpoles come out of our vaginas and then we were like he was like I don't know I don't know and I was like but what's the point in that in my mind it was like orgasms were to make sperm which was to make babies like there was nothing else about sex and I suppose as well with kind of like the way sex is portrayed in films or it's definitely in porn it's kind of through this real male gaze isn't it so

then when you kind of have sex a lot of the time in heterosexual relationships as a woman it's very much about our is the man happy is the man happy are they okay so then I suppose when when you're pregnant or after after having a baby it's suddenly much more about like am I okay like for me anyway because it's suddenly like I don't even know if my stitches have healed I'm terrified like how am I meant to how am I meant to do it I'm actually I don't even know where to begin with like talking about this with you because I mean it I feel like the it kind of begins with pregnancy really doesn't it it does and I think and one of the things that I remember someone saying to me is they were like there's only one kind of mention of sex in the book you know what to expect when

you're expecting and it's in the section for men and I think that even when you think about stuff like that you're thinking okay so where's all the advice for for me the one that's been through if you had your child yourself you know rather than something through something like surrogacy you know where where is the advice for me on how my body might feel different on the changes that I might have experienced on the hormonal changes the effect that they may have you know one thing that we massively massively see is I think detrimental is when women are breastfeeding they have a reduction you know decreased oestrogen and that causes vaginal dryness which causes painful sex why are we not being told that fundamentally you know as a basic basic message which is you need to know

about this and something like a really good lubricant would help you because then when sex is painful we think okay what's wrong with me we internalize that and then that becomes more of a problem for us in our heads but i've skipped ahead but when we think about pregnancy we are hormonally kind of in a whole different place to where we've ever been our body is changing it might have taken us a lot of time and effort or repeated attempts to get pregnant we might have a lot of anxiety about our pregnancy trying to conceive can be a real period of change for people's sex lives and it can very quickly move sex from fun or something that we used to do for fun and pleasure and connection to something functional you know how

do we get the goal that we want out of this and that can be pretty detrimental to people's sex lives in itself so even pre-pregnancy and then pregnancy brings up kind of physical barriers such as body changing or the practicalities of sex but also a lot of women are exhausted they feel sick they are thinking about their change in identity they're worried about how their partner might see them they might see weight fluctuation fluid retention be more anxious about finishing work there's so much going on and one of the things that we talk about a lot in therapy is this idea of switching off to turn on and as we all know that's pretty pretty difficult in the modern world that we live in and the lives that we lead at the moment which are especially in a pandemic oh my god yeah so I think that pregnancy is this huge period of change and what we also see is for people who might for example study with confidence or body confidence

or a you know historically more difficult relationship with their bodies that can be really hard do you know what I think it was like for Tom and I I think it was like throughout the pregnancy journey came very different sexual appetites for both of us which didn't necessarily correlate to the same time because definitely in my first trimester I was so tired I couldn't see the baby or feel the baby so I was very protective and worried I you know like you kind of mentioned there is that anxiety that is the baby going to be okay so the thought of doing anything that kind of felt that it might harm the baby even though obviously they say that sex doesn't harm the baby but I was like I need to protect this tiny thing inside of me that I can't see whereas second trimester came and I think that's the best that I've ever felt in my life like I've never felt so sexy so alive so like my hair was

great my skin was great I had so much energy so I was like bring it on like this is this is amazing like come at me whereas Tom was a bit like but I can but I can see the baby yeah so I think that you know that was probably like the I for us the beginning of a switch in our relationship and obviously when I talk about relationship it's not just sex but I do think sex and intimacy obviously play a huge part in a relationship and then you have the actual birth and I kind of had this thing in my mind that after six weeks you're healed and you're ready to get back to it whether back to it is exercise or your normal life or sex or whatever it is and I remember getting to six weeks and I mean I had prolapse I didn't dare touch my vagina I didn't know if the stick you know I didn't I had stitches and I didn't even

want to go anywhere near that in case like my stitches ripped open I didn't even know if they'd healed obviously nobody did a physical check so then when I went to the the doctor and they didn't do a physical check but they at the end were like have you thought about contraception I was a bit like well I mean I've got an anal prolapse so that that'll probably that'll probably stop me having sex I was like if that's not good contraception I don't know what it is but it I remember feeling a bit like are you asking me it almost felt and I don't know if this was me internalizing like my own issues but it almost felt like well the man will be ready to have sex with you now so have you thought about your options there was no how are you doing and also a big switch for me which funny enough Tom

and I would always have these like really petty arguments about was that my boobs no longer like felt like a sexy part of my body and to try and explain that to someone I was like get off my udders and that was even that was before birth so it was just like this change and even now if he comes anywhere near my boobs I'm like don't touch my udders because I've been breastfeeding for so long and I honestly can't imagine psychologically ever being able to think about boobs or nipples as a sexual part of my body again and I think it's that that can be quite a confusing thing for lots of women because something that used to be a big part of their sexuality or their sensuality has changed role has changed function and it can feel a bit a bit like a head fuck it's a bit like that's weird because that's

for my baby and that's for my baby and that's for my partner and that's for me and that used to be pleasure but now it's pleasurable in a different way and I think that can be quite um kind of confusing for people but the the six-week check thing I'm really pleased that we brought up because please do not if you are listening to this and you're kind of moving towards that time think that the six-week check is a green light and that you have to go home and have sex that night because it is a kind of generic checkup where as you said most people aren't physically examined and contraception is something that always gets discussed because that's on the list but the reality is it's a rough

indicator of that you you know your physical recovery should be a point that you could think about it but if you are not ready it is not the right time for you and for lots of people it won't be and if lots of people six weeks is so early there's so much going on um you know I've got I've got two kids myself so I've I've absolutely been there you can think six weeks I mean I feel like it you know I had this baby yesterday and I'm in this complete the kind of crazy time and I've got to think about sex again and that can feel like a lot of pressure and it's also really assumption-based that the only type of sex that you can or should be having is intercourse and that's also a big part of the problem so if you get to that six

week check and you're not feeling ready talk to your partner about it because also there might be expectations from them but the reality is if you say to them, you know, I'm really scared this is actually going to hurt me and I don't feel ready. I think your partner is going to get that. Yeah, it's funny, isn't it? Because I do feel like there's this like it's almost that we think oh the man is going to be waiting like you know almost like some kind of hungry bear waiting for his porridge just like bring me sex and I feel like we can build up this huge pressure in our heads because we don't necessarily want to talk about it or bring it up but we're like oh my god they're going to be

waiting to have sex and I don't I'm not ready to have sex and what if it hurts me and all of this internal dialogue but they're not seeing that and I remember when I spoke about it with Tom he was like oh my god I'm not ready either I'm absolutely terrified after seeing you know my childbirth experience he was like I'm scared as well and so then I was like oh right so you know he wasn't just kind of like yes yeah and he was yeah and it's funny isn't it because you kind of think that like I don't know they're just these like blue-blooded men being like if you don't bring me sex I will go find it elsewhere and like obviously Tom is not that type of person and probably most people aren't those type of people so I don't know where I'd kind of got that assumption from whether it's you know from gossip columns or tv or rom-coms or

I don't know where that narrative came from but it was such a relief for me to know that it it wasn't like that at all in our situation and I think that quite a lot of you know if we're talking about different sex partners here so um male female partners or relationships because we also you know have women in same sex relationships who will have had a partner kind of watching them go through childbirth is there are a lot of anxieties there's I don't want to hurt my partner they might not feel ready or you know I don't know what to do I don't know where I'm allowed to touch I don't know what's okay and a lot of the time I think for the non-birthing partner as well it's quite an out of control experience so they are the ones kind of standing

back watching a lot of the time and they can see their partner go through all of that and that is a big thing for them to have to see and so the only way you two can know what each other's thinking or what's going on for each other is by having that conversation but again it's not something that we're taught about or taught how to have welcome to paranormal activity with me Yvette Fielding a brand new podcast bringing together people's real ghost extraterrestrial and paranormal stories as well as getting some inside details from those who study the supernatural. I'll be listening through your paranormal stories every week and try to

understand them as well as chatting about my own encounters with an occasional paranormal investigator too. You can find us wherever you get your podcasts from including Apple Podcasts, Spotify and Acastast just search for paranormal activity with yvette fielding so how would you recommend for anyone who is sat listening thinking like oh i wish i could i was brave enough to have these conversations like how do you go about having a conversation around a topic that you might be embarrassed or not used to talking about I mean I always say to people use something like this episode or I don't know a YouTube video or a TED talk or something use it

as a platform to jump off like oh I heard this thing today or I read this article today or I saw this Instagram post today whatever it is because you're kind of putting the responsibility on something else in that moment it's not I want to talk about this it's someone else is talking about this what do you think and I quite often say to people if you're really nervous about getting the conversation started that can be quite a useful way of just kind of springboarding off. But the other thing is to say to your partner, no, we're getting to the, we've just had the six week point or whatever,

and I'm aware we haven't talked about sex. Like I'm not feeling ready. I wondered how you're doing. And I think that one of the things that what couples struggle with a lot is actually it's not the lack of sex. And when I say sex, I mean intercourse, but sexual contact as well. It's all of the little things, the lack of attention, the lack of affection, the lack of a quick kiss, a cuddle, a hug. There's little moments that we just lose in basically the carnage of having a newborn baby.

And that lack of interest in each other or attention to each other or desire in each other actually tends to be one of the things that has a bigger impact than the physicality itself. It's the intentional bit. And that's something that we can then think about we think okay so how could we do that and it might feel a bit like another demand or another thing we have to think about as we know you know particularly mothers new parents have a

kind of ever-ending to-do list but it can be a little way of injecting some of that feeling back and building what we call sexual currency which means that when you're ready to step back into rebuilding a sex life whether that's penetrative non-penetrative just touch-based sensuality-based that you feel a bit more ready or you feel that that gap isn't so big that That's so interesting. And also I did feel like a big part of the kind of loss of my identity was that I didn't feel sexy anymore. And it's not like before I had a baby, I was walking around like, oh, look how sexy I am. But sensuality and wearing nice lingerie and feeling confident,

it was like a big part of like of how I felt about myself and afterwards I remember like you know I went through incontinence and prolapse and obviously I am still breastfeeding so having a baby attached to you all the time and the lack of sleep and I just felt so gross really I was like I my body feels like it doesn't work anymore I'm tired I'm still six months down the line wearing my postpartum knickers like I was like I need to kind of switch things up for me like forget Tom forget sex I was like I need to like remember myself I for myself like god I I was like even just getting a nice I've got like really nice lacy nursing bras now from a brand called Cosabella and even that I was like I felt like a new person

like even if nobody else sees my laundry if I I'm wearing nice lingerie I feel like I could take over the world and I think that's one of the things that we think about sex right we always think it's for the other person but what you've just given is the perfect example of how it starts with that side of ourselves I wonder if that's like a maybe like good advice for anyone listening who does feel like disconnected from sex or who has no libido is kind of trying to remember that it's like a self-care act and actually like if you take your partner totally out of it like can you run yourself a bath or buy a vibrator or you know get to know your own body again because that like for me a lot of a lot of the fear around sex was I was so scared of my body like

was it going to be painful could I still have orgasms like so almost like being able to connect with your own sexuality again kind of empowered me to feel like I could be like a sexy partner again and I think that's really important because as you said those thoughts are going through your head and what we as humans do is we ruminate so we don't just kind of have the thoughts and then kind of deal with them and shut them away we we kind of go over and go over and go over and so what the best thing for you to then try and do is to take control of that stuff a bit and be like okay well I'm gonna try on my own even if it's just in the shower I'm gonna touch my body in a sensual way not a sexual way we don't have to masturbate but just get used to the feeling of my body again so I feel

comfortable because if we move from comfortable to as a stepping stone to confidence, we can build that relationship with ourselves again. But if we're without the pressure or expectation that not necessarily comes from our partner, but also comes from us, of having someone else there. And what we can do is it can help us to feel like we're kind of working on that first stage of things on our own. And as you just said, you know, kind of that idea of still breastfeeding and being touched out, a lot of women describe being touched out. So it's this touch overload, you know. I've been through pregnancy, childbirth, you know, people have examined me,

particularly, you know, people who might have had lots of interventions at birth. I had all these doctors' hands on me or sometimes in me. I postnatally have been examined. I am having, you know, little hands on me all the time. I'm breastfeeding all the time. And then this feels like partner touch is another hand on my body, another form of touch. And actually, I just can't really remember what it was like to be just me in control of all of that. And I think that in that way, the idea of starting sex and intimacy again can feel quite overwhelming. You just feel like you need a bit of your own space. And that can feel quite invasive. And that's the thing that women particularly often describe. often describe I've never ever heard that expression before touched out and that is literally how I'm just listening to you like yes that is it and you know Alf's 10 months now I'm

still breastfeeding it takes me a good two hours to get him to sleep and also before you know before I met Tom which was only three months before we had a baby I was single for six years and I've realized that I recharge in my own company like I love just being on my own and that's something that I I really have struggled with is the now never ever getting that time you know and so the thought of putting the baby down and then suddenly having to be intimate it is that it's exactly that being completely touched out especially because alf ends up in the bed with us so he normally like is sleeping against me so i literally very very very rarely ever feel like there aren't hands on on my body and we talk

about this this process of becoming a mother it's it's a term that is often using kind of anthropology called matricence which is this kind of physical, psychological, emotional changes that you go through. And it's something that we don't really talk about, but something that I was introduced to by someone who was on my podcast called Sarah Forbes, who is writing the book Mama Sex. And we did an episode on motherhood and sex,

and she was talking about how we don't prepare people for matricence, which is this process of basically not being the same person as you were before having a baby becoming a mother in the same way as that we go through puberty and we don't expect people to be the same before and after and we shouldn't expect people to be the same and after through this motherhood process but for some reason we do and if we do we don't equip people to manage or adapt those changes and no one's saying that that's worse or anything like that but it's just this why don't we say to everyone yeah of course everything will be different in some way but that's not a bad thing and you can adapt and change and sex adapts and changes and so does your relationship and you guys both of you as partners shouldn't expect to be the same people or the same person and I think there's something really interesting

in just even talking about that do you know what the term matcha sense has actually saved me in my like in the last like 10 months because the moment I heard it I was like oh my god it's okay to feel out of sorts and that is exactly how I felt like I was kind of trying to cling on to the old me and you know during pregnancy I had this like thing of like I'm not ready to be a mom and I feel like there is a sort of like negativity around motherhood that when you give birth you're like I'm not going to be like that or I don't want to be like that at least you know that was my experience and so when you're kind of going through it and you're tired and you're exhausted and you're trying to prove to friends that you're still the same person but you really don't feel

the same person and all of that and then trying to like ride out a relationship as well it is it is it is so hard and like you know I was saying to Tommy the other day like I just miss us I miss us like who we were when we we didn't have to talk logistics of okay I'm you know who's going to take after swim this week because I've got this at this time you've got this at this time I was like I miss just like and even like sex I you know I miss us both not being scared that we're gonna hurt I mean like you know I miss sex when it doesn't feel like you're losing your virginity which just is for I feel like the postnatal experience because like there's just so much scariness and that was actually one of the one of the main responses when I when I reached out to you guys on social media to say like what do you want to ask people

are like how do you get over being scared how do you get over this low libido how do you get over the pain of where the stitches were and how long you know when should the scar area not hurt I feel like there is just so much like fear and anxiety over it so yeah what what I mean what is your advice around all of that so my advice is sex should not continue to be painful if you are having ongoing sexual pain beyond the kind of initial discomfort and getting used to things again, please don't just assume that that is the norm. Go and see your gynecologist or a women's health physio. Women's health physio is such a brilliant resource for pace natal women. I can't recommend it enough. I'm not just plugging my own podcast. I did another episode with Claire Bourne who is a brilliant

brilliant women's health physio and does a lot of talking around this area but we pain there are things for example over granulated tissue which is when sex is very painful and the tissue basically is over granulated and it can become painful and you don't want to be pushing on and encouraging that and reinforcing this idea because sex is i approach sex as a profession through a biopsychosocial model so biology psychology social all combined if you are doing something repeatedly which is causing you pain you are going to want to avoid it it's as simple as anything in life we don't go towards or approach the things that make us feel bad emotionally physically it's just it's just how we operate so if you are starting to get back into sex the one thing I would recommend is a really good

water-based lubricant yes organics are top of my list every time for this recommendation um they are all natural water-based you don't want to be using anything with a tingle sensation or flavors anything which might cause you any further irritation and things like stitches will heal but scar tissue can be less elastic which is is why some people, for example, feel that sex might feel tighter or it might actually feel like there's less kind of more resistance if we're talking about penetrative sex here. And that's because that's what can happen when scar tissue develops. what can happen when scar tissue develops. So there are lots of things that you can do. But the one thing I would say is if it's intercourse that is specifically painful for you at the moment, you need to take it really slowly. Building up arousal is really important, which is the body's physical process of preparing for sex, which is things like lubrication,

taking blood flow to the area, oxygenation tissues increased sensitivity but desire is the want to do something and that is context dependent and that context is something that we can do something about and those are as you said ashley earlier things like wearing something that makes you feel good changing the lighting if you're feeling uncomfortable about your body having a shower before if that would help you to feel relaxed and help you to switch off using a fragrance in your room changing something sensually which helps you making sure that you can't see any washing is something that you know I've heard so many times you know I'm lying in bed and all I can see is the washing pile how am I meant to be thinking about sex when I'm thinking about everything I need to do the

next day so we can manipulate our environments to do those things but one of the big things is baby steps you know build up to physical intimacy and sensuality slowly don't feel that you need to just jump in and have intercourse and actually what you may find is that if you're wanting to have penetrative sex again is that it's something that you start doing slowly it might not be the sex that you were having before but it might be that you almost need to kind of practice for a bit but the more used to it you get the more relaxed you'll be and the vagina sits in the middle of the pelvic floor muscles if you are tense and anxious that muscle group is going to be tight and that is going to cause

more difficulties with penetration more pain and more discomfort we want you to be relaxed that's really interesting you mentioned as well you know changing the lighting especially if you're worried about like body confidence I imagine that body confidence and sex is something that's so closely linked even without the kind of changes that pregnancy and postnatal life bring but is there any other tips that you have for people who maybe are listening into are struggling with body confidence whether that's from c-section scars or just the all-round changes I think it's about you focusing on you because again the preoccupation with how my partner sees me takes us out of our bodies and puts us into our heads and we're in our heads

is where we don't want to be when it comes to sex and I think maybe communicating to your partner do you know what I feel more comfortable if I kept a t-shirt on I'd feel more comfortable if we turn the lights off or if we change something or we I don't know lit a candle whatever it is and I think the sensuality bits that we were talking about before that kind of building a relationship back up with yourself is important here and what we are also saying is it doesn't all have to be super positive it's not all like look at my amazing body I love my amazing body lots of women don't feel like that and shouldn't feel under pressure to do so but we can appreciate our body and for what it is and um Jamila Jamil talks about this idea of body neutrality you know I accept my body as it is I'm um appreciating my body for what it's done

for where I'm at and I think again we we see that social media and the kind of media world around us sends us all these messages about how we should be. And if we feel like we're not keeping up, then we self-criticise, we make ourselves feel bad. And that in itself does us no service. So it's really for you finding out what works for you. And that is the best advice I can really give here is don't think about what everyone else is doing. Just focus on you. I saw such an interesting stat as well that the average time it takes for couples to have sex after giving birth is I think it was 10 months. And actually that kind of really took the pressure off because as you just said,

not worrying about what other people are doing. I kind of had this idea that after six weeks, everyone else is kind of, you know, back to a really healthy sex life. And I'm still in, in my like incontinence pants with my nursing bra on and haven't probably showered since the birth. And I was like, what's wrong with me? But actually like, because nobody really talks about it nobody really knows that everyone is kind of getting that everyone else is kind of like at it with this really healthy like sexy relationship when actually it might not be like that I think a part of that is a part of the broader conversation that we don't have which which is that sex changes. We go through different phases, different stages, everything else in our life changes. And we're happy to, you know, talk about it, admit it.

We, for some reason, we expect sex to be a constant irrespective of everything else that we've got going on. And what we know is that desire is context dependent and is responsive. So the bigger conversation here, which is impacting everyone, not just new parents and new mums, is sex changes and that's okay. to what you were saying earlier that sex isn't just about the kind of like penetrative well sex is obviously not just penetrative but also intimacy is not just sex and I love um the five love languages Gary Chapman's five love languages and I think like for us that's been such an important thing to remember that I know that you know Tom's love language is physical touch whereas mine to be honest I don't even know what mine is right now I think I'm a little bit of everything but for me like for Tom I know it it goes a long way for me to even like give him a hug or even be like you look amazing or I really fancy you because when you might not when you might be lacking in like physical intimacy it's almost like that reassurance

of like I really fancy you so he feels confident that I'm I haven't just like totally lost interest because I do think sometimes we can forget that they have their own sort of like things going on in their mind as well and they might be like building up a narrative in their own mind of you know why there might be a lack of intimacy or you know they might miss it of how it was before as well and I definitely feel like I've been quite selfish in my mind, because I've been overthinking so much about being tired or exhausted or worrying about, you know, lack of libido or whatever, that I forget that actually he might be going through exactly the same thing. And he might be like, I'm also really tired, and I've

got to go into the office tomorrow. And I know Alf's going to have us up all night like I'm not feeling that sexy right now either yeah absolutely and I think so much of my work in general is about this kind of myth myth busting and also breaking down assumptions and so often we all assume because it's easier than asking but that doesn't always help us I feel like that yeah that's a really good tip for life in general help us I feel like that yeah that's a really good tip for life in general isn't it even like not in relationships we we tend to always make assumptions we build a narrative in our head that might be so far from reality yeah definitely and I think the narratives that we have and the messages that we have about sex particularly are very ingrained and the world has moved on quicker than we could

really ever keep up with you know the sexual revolutions the pill being the first one in the 60s and the internet basically being the second one and we haven't updated the narratives to keep up with the changes that we've made so we have these these two kind of polarized I suppose worlds or these two things clashing up against each other and it's really important that then we say okay well what isn't working sexually because it's making me feel really bad about myself is how can I address that how can I change that how can I make this better for me more comfortable for me how can I address this in a way which isn't what I think I should be doing but actually what is helping me to feel better I love that I was going to say as a as a good way to end and a recap every week I get different messages through askmumsthewordpod

at gmail.com email or on the Apple reviews and this week I actually had a question from Lou which I was going to ask you but I feel like we've covered it however I feel like it could be a really good recap to end things so Lou says hey Ashley I'm loving the podcast I'm six months

postpartum I'm feeling so anxious about any sexual intimacy with my husband I've lost my sex drive and I find it really hard to become aroused my husband understands but I do often feel like I'm letting the side down I just want things to go back to normal but I don't know where to start can you help I feel like that's the perfect question for you and could recap on some of the things that we've talked about I feel for a start like that sums up the experience that so many people feel so I would really like to say that what what I'm hearing from that is that it's really not an uncommon experience and so that

but also the word normal I picked up there I just want to feel back to normal and I think one thing is just really take those small steps and say to your partner okay you know I'm not happy about this uh you're saying you're not happy about this but I would like us to try and work on this a bit And the Gottman Institute talks about small things like a 10 second hug and a six second kiss. We can all fit that into our days. And those are little moments, they call it a kiss with potential. And what we understand about desire, so when we're saying, you know, I've lost my libido, is that it is responsive, we can trigger it, it isn't that we should suddenly feel turned on and then act on it. It isn't that we should suddenly feel turned on

and then act on it. It's actually that we can create the opportunities for that to happen. And we can do that in little ways. So saying, do you know what? We're going to put the baby down tonight and then why don't we just go and lie on our bed for half an hour, talk, give each other

undivided attention, put our phones away, lots of eye contact have a hug have a kiss doesn't have to go anywhere but let's just have half an hour for us and then we can go and make dinner or rather than leaving it as well to the end of the day all of the time because that's the thing we often crawl into bed at the end of the night we brushed our teeth kind of put our pajamas on we're winding down to get ready for bed so then the idea of winding back up but winding back up for sex feels doubly exhausting and I would say do the things that help you so for example like using a good lubricant knowing that that will help knowing that that is a recommended thing based on hormones that it is not about

that something's wrong with you or that you aren't turned on enough or not wet enough we're talking about hormonal changes here that are affecting how your body works and I think addressing it with your partner so that gap becomes a problem and often what we see is that people then have to address it when they want to have another baby if they've had their children naturally um or through sex rather than through IVF for example so if you think about every little kiss or every little hug or every little attention or reach out or handhold as a little bridge then we want to be building those bridges building up that sexual currency because when you then feel desire what you should hopefully feel is the desire

to continue rather than feeling waiting to feel turned on to have to act on it actually we think about it almost the other way and the other thing this is the longest answer ever no it's great the other thing I'd say is self-educate don't be afraid to listen to podcasts you know look at people like women's health physios see what they're saying psychosexual therapists there are amazing people talking about desire Dr Karen Gur gurney claire bourne who's talking a lot about postnatal women's health in terms of pelvic recovery brooke vandermoelen who is the the obgyn mom talking about painful sex lots of sex therapists it's information is out there and i think listening to other people talk about it in these kind of formats really helps because you're like okay yeah that's exactly how I feel or okay it's not just me and I

think there's a lot to be said for those those things so that self-education bit for me is massive and you can do it on the go listening to a podcast it doesn't it's not like you have to sit down and read a whole book on it so I think feeling empowered and knowing that the most natural way to deal with anxiety is to avoid but actually the best thing we can do is to start to approach slowly is really really important. I love that and it is it is so nice even for me to know in this kind of world that we don't really speak about with sex and relationships in pregnancy and after, like even just from getting everyone's questions in, it's so reassuring to know and you're just like this like weird person trying to deal with exhaustion and lack of libido and you're on your own with it but there's definitely definitely like it almost takes the pressure off knowing it's normal and knowing that you're not alone and so I feel like that kind of like makes you less worried about it so Kate I'm so grateful

that you came on the podcast and I'm so grateful to everyone who um got in touch with all the different questions and if you have a question you want me and a guest to answer or if you've got any comments about today then please get in touch by emailing askmamsthewordpod at gmail.com or like I mentioned you can leave us a review on apple podcasts or you can even leave us a voicemail on whatsapp which is the number 07599927537 it's so weird reading out a number that isn't your own but okay thank you so much i really appreciate it and i'm sure it's helped lots of lots of my listeners so thank you to all of you as well for listening to Ashley James first time mum parenting podcast make sure to hit subscribe or follow this button so you

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