Mum's The Word! The Parenting Podcast - Kelly Whiting on the Maternity Mates Project

Episode Date: May 15, 2022

Maternity Mates Programme Co-ordinator and Volunteer Kelly Whiting joins Ashley on this week's episode of Mum's The Word. She talks about supporting women in East London, from all backgrounds, through pregnancy, childbirth and motherhood, while advocating for them at every part of the process. To find out more about the Maternity Mates programme head to https://whfs.org.uk/index.php/what-we-do/maternity-mates If you want to ask Ashley a question, get in touch at [e-mail]---A Create Podcast Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

I was really hoping to look a bit glamorous today not that it matters because you're listening to me not seeing me but we are recording the video as well and I realized about two minutes before recording that I had sausage meat or sausage juice all the way down my face so that is how my day is going but I'm really really excited about the topics that we're going to be covering on today's podcast episode. And I'm speaking to someone who I think that we can all agree is a real life superhero. So I think we can all agree that the COVID-19 pandemic has been an especially challenging and isolating time for pregnant women and new mothers. I'm sure lots of you experienced pregnancy or being a new mum in lockdowns, as I did myself. And many of these women found themselves alone during their journey into motherhood. Actually, I saw a survey from Cambridge University that revealed that 47% of parents

had negative experiences of giving birth during the height of the pandemic. And obviously, as we come out of the pandemic, the isolation, the disadvantages and the qualities that people experienced during COVID continues to be a stark reality for many, many women. My amazing guest this week volunteers at an amazing program for women's health and family services. this week volunteers at an amazing program for women's health and family services and she ensures that women are supported and empowered during their pregnancy birth and afterwards it's called maternity mates and the maternity mates program provides extensive training to female volunteers to support pregnant women and new mums who are experiencing vulnerabilities such as social isolation the inability to speak english domestic violence poor mental health or forums who are experiencing vulnerabilities such as social isolation, the inability to speak

English, domestic violence, poor mental health or for those who are refugees or asylum seekers. They operate in Tower Hamlets, Waltham Forest and Newham. Their maternity mates are matched with local women from her fifth month of pregnancy and they support until six weeks after the baby is born including attending the birth and they meet with women weeks after the baby is born, including attending the birth. And they meet with women regularly to develop a trusting relationship, provide emotional and practical support so they can make informed choices about maternity care. And I'm speaking to Kelly Whiting today

and she has been a volunteer since 2019 and actually now works full-time, not only coordinating volunteers for the programme, but she is also currently on call right now. Her phone could go off at any moment because she is waiting for somebody to give birth and is going to be there. So Kelly, thank you first of all for giving up your time to chat to me today. Oh no, thank you so much for having me. I think it's just so great to be able to talk about the work that we do. Cause I think a lot of people don't realize until they have their own kids, just how isolating that initial

journey into motherhood really can be if you don't have a good support system around you. So yeah, thanks for having me. Thank you so much. No, it's interesting. Cause I feel like, I mean, motherhood must've been hard. Obviously I don't know what it was like in pre COVID times, but even from my own experience and I do have an amazing support network around me what it was like in pre-COVID times, but even from my own experience, and I do have an amazing support network around me, it was so, I still feel like I'm recovering. Obviously now, I feel like I found my identity and I'm enjoying it much more and I've got more independence. But I mean, I can't imagine what it must be like when you don't have that support system in place. Yeah. I think what's really interesting is that the pandemic probably gave a glimpse to a lot of people who are in more sort of fortunate,

supportive circumstances, a look at what it was like for women that we supported even before the pandemic who were already quite socially isolated. So we support a lot of women like pre-COVID and during COVID who come from, you know, might be brand new in the country and then all of a sudden find themselves pregnant and have no family other than maybe their partner who might not be supportive, or who might actually be abusing them. And so I think, you know, that's an extreme example. But what's really interesting is that that level of isolation, you know, being afraid to go outside or not speaking the language, and so not being able to develop a support network, I think we all kind of started to experience that during the pandemic when suddenly all of our areas for social interaction were like limited down to a screen. So I think

it gave everyone a glimpse into what some people were already experiencing. And it showed just how important it is to have like a strong network around you, but especially almost no more in your life than at that moment when you're pregnant and about to have a baby, because that's when you need more support than ever, really. Definitely. Well, how did you get involved in Maternity Mates? And what's your sort of journey that made you aware of it? Yeah, so I'm Canadian, as you know from the accent, but I've lived here almost about 10 years now. And actually, when I originally came over, the reason I came over was because my partner is British from London. So he had a job after we graduated uni and I thought, I'll come over here. And I knew

when I graduated university, I did a degree in history and was like, Oh, what am I going to do? I don't know. But I realized when I did some real soul searching, like I love birth and I love pregnancy and the whole, I just find it so fascinating. And I find it like there's no better opportunity than that moment to help empower women. Because if you can have a really a birth where even if it doesn't go the way you think it will, or the way you want it to, if you feel like you are in control and always making decisions about what's best for you and your baby, like that can be so empowering. And I wanted the chance to, you know, help women find their voices and find their power but unfortunately as a Canadian I couldn't study midwifery because you have to be a British citizen that's what I was here yeah so

that was pretty disappointing to find out after I moved over here so what I did was I was looking for other ways to kind of be involved with birth and you know women's empowerment and I found out about the role of a doula and I I love that idea. And I did doula training, but I didn't really want to charge people for it. It just wasn't like a career. And there's plenty of doulas who make a business of it. And I think that's fabulous. It just wasn't quite right for me. And so I was working in the NHS doing like communications and a friend said, Hey, I live in East London and there's this cool volunteer thing. It sounds like what you'd be interested in. And I looked it up maternity mates and I read about it and it was, I live in East London and there's this cool volunteer thing. It sounds like what you'd be interested in. And I looked it up, maternity mates, and I read about it and it was,

I was just like, wow, this is perfect. Because essentially what it is, is we are sort of like volunteer doulas. We, like you said, basically we get trained to provide emotional support to women. Yeah. Through their pregnancy and at their birth, if they want it. Yeah, so I did the training and I started volunteering. And since then, it's just been absolutely amazing. So I was working full time when I started initially like in a different job. And then I during the pandemic, when we suddenly moved at home and everything went virtual, I was like, you know what, I think I can support more women now because there was no commuting time, all my sort of extracurricular things had stopped. And so yeah, I became a much more active volunteer supporting a lot more women throughout

the first year of the pandemic, probably also because we had a lot more women seeking support. And then when I finally got my British citizenship and realized like, hey, I can pursue midwifery, I decided to quit my day job. And then while I was in the process of applying for university, the Women's Health and Family Services, the charity that runs Maternity Mates was like, hey, we could use you as a staff member while we're, you know, recruiting more permanently. And I was like, yes. And since then, I've been both volunteering and now actually actively working, coordinating the program. And it's just the most rewarding work that you could ever imagine. It's so fulfilling.

God, that's like incredible. And do you mind me asking, are you a mom yourself? Not yet. Not yet. So it's kind of funny because I've been at so many births now. And I think initially I was like, who's going to want me there with them? Like, I don't have my own children. Like, who's going to want me there. But I realized one of the things that's really great about working in birth and supporting women and families is that you will find the people for who your experience is most beneficial. So for me, I bring no like preconceived ideas about birth because I haven't experienced it. So I don't have my own hesitations or reservations or sometimes even like stare, what's the word like prejudices about what people should i'm literally just there to help women explore whatever they feel is the best choice for them and to give them as much unbiased information as i can find to support them to

make the right choice for them because for every woman it's going to be different and but yeah of course down the line like i you know it's really important to me to have a family and that will happen one day when my midwifery studies hopefully are concluded. No, honestly, even if you decide to be child-free, it wasn't a judgmental question because I was like, you should have a child to do this. Obviously, I'm in awe of what you do anyway. But for me personally, I had no idea what childbirth, pregnancy, and after what they call the fourth trimester, I had no idea what it entailed until I became one to the point that I felt guilty of how bad a friend I was to my friends who had babies before me. I was like, oh my God, I'm so sorry for literally being the worst

friend and giving you no support. So how did you even know that that was an option or that you recognized a gap in the market to empower women in that process i think it's honestly it sounds kind of like hokey but it comes from this i've always had like a really strong sense of like what's right and wrong and i've done a lot of read like i don't know how much i buy into this but reading about like how trauma and stress gets passed down genetically from mother to baby so if the mother experiences certain things in her pregnancy or her breastfeeding journey, how biologically that can make its way to the child. And it's like, my own mom had a very difficult time breastfeeding me,

even though she knew 100% like, I want to breastfeed, I will do it. And everyone around her was saying, just give the baby a bottle. She's starving. But my mom, for her, it was really important. Other moms can do whatever they like. But for her, this was her journey. And eventually she did find this wonderful woman who came in and really changed her journey. And she was able to successfully breastfeed me, but she had to fight for it. And I, and I really do think that that kind of shaped who I, in many ways, who I became as a, like, as a woman, as I got older. Cause for me, I've always had that strong sense of like, I will always fight for what I think is right and when I look at birth and when I look at how women are treated in a medicalized system there's a lot of injustice especially for you know black and

brown women or women who come from like other backgrounds it's not just like disadvantages in care but they are actively harmed by the things that happen to them because our system has a lot of institutional racism unfortunately and so for me I looked at birth and I was like, this is a thing that only affects women. Well, I mean, like, you know, primarily affects women and their bodies and what a better place to try to fight for them to feel like they are in control than, than working in birth. And so I think, yeah, it really comes from that, you know, my mom instilling in me the sense of always fighting for what's right. And then finding such a great place where I could, you know, advocate for people who maybe don't have, you know, it's a moment when you're like the most vulnerable you'll probably ever be in

your life is when you're pregnant and giving birth because, you know, there's so many other things that you need to focus on, especially when you're in labor and actively giving birth, there's no better time than you should have a group of strong, strong women and other people around you to be your voice when you physically can't in that moment. And so that's what that's, I just love that about it, the chance to get to do that. By the way, I just need to say that I also believe that what you kind of carry and what stresses you carry get passed down. And as a chronic anxiety sufferer, I've learned how to like manage my anxiety, but I've experienced anxiety every single day. I actually, when you're talking about sounding, did you say hokey-cokey or something? I actually had a happiness coach during my pregnancy and honestly,

any stress, I was like like kumbaya like this is not going to affect me this is not going to affect my baby obviously and now of course I have like stressful moments but I fully kind of believe in that whole that whole idea and I think it's like attachment theory as well isn't it and I would love to pick up on obviously as like a white woman when you say about institutionalized racism and systemic racism within like the medical sector and particularly how it harms black and brown women i'd love to like know more about that because i feel like we you know we all hear it a lot and of course absolutely it's undeniable like we see it all the time that you know even the fact

that a lot of scientists studies are done on either white men or then white women. So I actually found out recently as well that airbags and cars are all tested on men, on male dummies. So I understand things like that, but I'd love to know more about how it affects, well, black and brown women in specifically the child care sector. Yeah, definitely. Well, obviously to preface, like I'm a white middle-class woman. So, you know, I have to like, I won't, I'm not speaking. I don't want to speak on behalf of anyone or, you know, I would always try to elevate voices from those communities who can speak best for themselves.

And there are some amazing people that you can follow on Instagram, Abuela Dula and Mars Lord. She's the one that's sort of behind the collective of Abuela Dula. They do a lot of training for Black doulas in East London. She is a fantastic advocate. And I would highly recommend everyone go and follow her because she shares some really critical, amazing information about how Black women particularly are affected by racism in care. But some examples. So I mean, there's lots of things like I always start with, if we look at like, I guess it's the historiography of birth. So all of our knowledge and understanding of like the physiology of what happens in birth. So things like, you know, expectations on time for the cervix to dilate during birth, or I'm just trying to think of other things like how babies develop in utero, a lot of that information comes from, or even anesthesia used in birth or certain procedures that were

developed. A lot of that information comes from studies that were done on participants who couldn't consent. In particular, there was a doctor in America in the, I want to say like the 1800s, 1700s, who did a lot of experimentation on Black slaves, like women that he would get pregnant, and then he would do procedures on them without their consent, obviously, because they were slaves, so they couldn't consent. And he would use no anesthesia. And so a lot of the knowledge that we have actually comes from there, which is really problematic. I'm not saying that we shouldn't use the information that we gained if it's beneficial to us, but we need to acknowledge where it came from is from the torture of Black women. And then too, you know, if you just look at some of the procedures that happen,

Braxton Hicks, why is the name of a thing that's happening in a woman's body named after men? Caesarean section. That's a man, it's a doctor, a researcher. Why do we call these things that happen to women's bodies after, so we have to look at like where the history and the legacy of how this knowledge is developed

because, you know, for many years, women weren't allowed to be scholars or doctors, etc. So a lot of this knowledge was developed by men. And of course, especially to like all the work that was being done in medical schools in Edinburgh, well, they were working on cadavers, they weren't working on live bodies. a woman's pregnant body is literally constantly changing from minute to minute as you know probably from being pregnant your bones are shifting ligaments are stretching all kinds of things are happening and the same goes for labor so while we have like you know estimates of generalizations of how we expect women's labors to progress every woman is an individual they're literally each person is like a snowflake they're all completely different which means that if we try to apply these generic limits like we expect if you don't progress, you know, two centimeters dilation per three hours, then you need an induction or you need a cesarean. Like every woman is an individual. So doing that is not helpful and sometimes is actually harmful. When we look at people who have maybe historically been not so well treated by the system in general, but in particular, the medical system, when we're looking at like even how medical students are taught, they're shown images in their textbooks of how things present on

white bodies and often, you know, white male bodies. But in pregnancy, it's obviously females. But different conditions present differently on different colored skin. So if students are only taught how to identify things on white bodies, how are they going to know what it looks like on a black or brown body? They're not. They're going to really struggle. And what that's going to mean is that things might not get noticed, and then conditions can escalate, and then that can lead to harm. And then, of course, there's also, there's been lots of research done about how medical professionals ignore women's pain and dismiss women's pain. And also then,

of course, like that's elevated with Black women's pain in particular. There's this idea that, and it's this horribly racist, pervasive idea in society that Black women can't tolerate pain. And so we'll kind of complain even when it's not really that bad. But the thing is, it's like, we just have this system that just doesn't trust women to know what's going on in their bodies. For some reason, we're always sort of questioning, oh, it's not really that bad. But if a woman's telling you her baby's coming right now, it's probably because she knows her baby's coming right now. We need to do better at actually listening to them. And I guess part of the problem really is that there's been some studies put out, in particular, the Embrace report, which shows that Black women die four times more than white women

in childbirth which is a shocking statistic and i think they're still doing a lot of research to kind of really understand where that comes from but i think it probably comes from a multitude of the reasons i mentioned like not actively understanding how conditions will present in different with different skin colors or different bodies and then just not listening to women when they're explaining what's going on in their body and not trusting them to understand what's going on in on in their body or to make informed choices about their own care. It's so interesting. I know Rochelle Humes did a documentary actually about black women,

in childbirth, which I still need to watch. But when you're talking about the very male attitudes of women should endure pain, I actually saw an article recently that a senior male midwife, a guy called Dr. Dennis Walsh, came out. He's an associate professor in midwifery at Nottingham University. He says, pain and labor is a purposeful, useful thing, which has quite a number of benefits, such as preparing a mother for the responsibility of nurturing a baby. And I saw that. He said, some women these days just don't fancy the pain of childbirth. And I was like, I'm sorry. So what about the men? How do they prepare to look after a baby? Because they don't have to endure pain. And it is crazy

because I do feel like we have this expectation. Even now, if I say that I did a vaginal birth without drugs, which by the way, wasn't my choice. People are like, wow, you're so brave or you're so strong. But if I had, let's say I had to get a hip replacement and I was like, oh, I had a hip replacement. I didn't use anesthetic. People wouldn't be like, wow, that's so brave. They would be like, i had a hip replacement i didn't use anesthetic people wouldn't be like wow that's so brave they would be like you are a mad woman yeah why would you do that we've got medicine for that now and there is this like a really outdated notion and even you know when you're looking at like the crisis at the moment with the menopause and the lack of mhrt is it hrt treatment available or with how they're now discovering that the coil actually with the level of pain that it takes to yeah they should be under anesthetic and it is this whole yeah you're right like misunderstanding of women so then when you're looking at what you do where

it's like women who yeah maybe aren't like english isn't their first language or they don't have like a good support system or education or whatever it might be. I can't imagine how vulnerable they must be in those situations. Yeah, exactly. I think, I think what's really frustrating is the fact that like, well, first this whole idea about, oh, you did it without drugs. So good. You know, wow, you're so strong. Anyone who has a baby, any way that they have a baby is the strongest woman that I know. They're like, we don't need to play like the suffering Olympics. Like everyone is strong in their own way with whatever their journey into motherhood is. And that's the first thing.

I hate this idea that if you only have a certain type of birth, that it's less valid than others, because absolutely not having a baby anyway presents numerous challenges I think what's so important is just about and where our service kind of comes into play with the women we work is that we want to make sure that all the women that we work with have all of the information that they need to make an informed choice so that they can be safe and be happy and empowered with whatever and that's about all aspects of their care not just the birth and I think that's really the problem is that because the system is so, you know, midwives are amazing, there's no doubt. Of course, you know, there'll be the outliers that are maybe not as good as others,

but in general, they're incredible. And they are working under the most difficult condition, they don't have enough staff to give the kind of care that I know that they all got into the profession to give. And that's really heartbreaking, because what that then means is that the women that they're seeing don't have the time and they don't have that personalized one-on-one chance to develop a relationship with their care provider where they feel safe and they feel like they can trust them to ask them for their opinion on, should I choose this? Should I choose that? What are the risks? What are the benefits, et cetera? They feel as though they just have to sort of do what they're told because, you know, the midwife or the doctor is the expert. But no one is more of an expert in their own body and their baby than the woman themselves. She's the one who's experiencing what it's like to carry

that baby. So I think where we sort of come into that is we get the chance to build that longer one-on-one relationship with the woman. And of course, we're not offering medical advice. But what we're doing is going, hey, they said that to you, what did you think about that? Do you have questions? Should we make a list and we can ask them next time? Or do you want to try and find some more information? And we do that in a way that's culturally relative, you know, relevant to them. And also linguistically, like, if they don't speak any English, there's no sense in us doing that in English. So we always do our best to make sure that we can match them with someone who speaks their language. And if they don't, we try to get an interpreter so that we can have a

meaningful conversation and develop that relationship and build that trust so they feel safe. Own each step with Peloton. From their pop runs to walk and talks, you define what it means to be a runner. Whatever your level, embrace it. Journey starts when you say so. If you've got five minutes or 50, Peloton Tread has workouts you can work in. Or bring your classes with you for outdoor runs, walks, and hikes, led by expert instructors on the Peloton app. Call yourself a runner. Peloton all-access membership separate. Learn more at onepeloton.ca slash running.

Welcome to Paranormal Activity with me, Yvette Fielding, a brand new podcast bringing together people's real ghost, extraterrestrial, and paranormal stories, as well as getting some inside details from those who study the supernatural. I'll be listening through your paranormal stories every week and try to understand them, as well as chatting about my own encounters with an occasional paranormal investigator too. You can find us wherever you get your podcasts from, including Apple Podcasts, Spotify and Acast. Just search for Paranormal Activity with Yvette Fielding. What kinds of cultural, like different cultural implications are there just out of total curiosity?

Yeah, well, I think what's really amazing about working in East London, and obviously there are many other parts of the country that are super diverse as well, is that we have such a diverse community. So not only are the women that we're working with from, I mean, like literally a whole range of backgrounds, but our volunteer bases as well, which is fantastic. So in East London, there's a really large Bangladeshi community and a lot of the women we support practice Islam. And I'm not religious myself, but I've supported a few women who are Muslim. And I think what's been really interesting for me is that there are certain like cultural practices or ways that maybe they think about themselves as mothers that are very related to their religion,

that I've had to sort of learn and then kind of adjust how I support them based on that. So for example, I was supporting a woman during the pandemic who had her baby and she was really struggling to breastfeed. And for her, she said to me, you know, like the Quran says for me that to be a good mother, I have to feed my baby. That was her understanding of what it meant. And she felt as though because she couldn't breastfeed, that she was a failure as a mother. She was a failure in her religion because she couldn't do that one thing she felt her religion had told her she needed to be able to do. Obviously, we put her in touch with relevant breastfeeding support services, but she was

one of those like literally one tiny little percent of women who physically couldn't do it because, you know, there are a very small amount of women who physically are unable to. And so we had a lot of discussions about like, what does it mean to nurture your baby? Does it mean that the food has to come from your breast? Or does it mean because nurturing your baby, which is sort of how she understood it wasn't just about feeding, but it was about nourishing the baby. That's so much more than just milk from your breast or milk from a bottle. It's everything. It's the way that you, you know, attend to your

baby's needs, the way that you sing to him, you look in his eyes, you hold him, regardless of where the milk is coming from, if it's a bottle or your breast. Like if you are the one that he looks to when he needs support, and when he cries, you're nourishing your baby, you're a mother. the difficulty she was having in early motherhood with the kind of frame of mind that she had from her religion so that she could feel like she was truly a mother in the eyes of the way she practiced her religion. But it's a lot of things like that that can kind of impact how women journey into motherhood, their own sort of frame of reference from their culture or their religion. And I mean, that's also things like a lot of the women we deal with are living with very large extended families. I'm talking like 10, 15 people in a house and the pressure from their in-laws to behave in certain ways that maybe they're not wanting to and certain expectations of how they're to maintain their household. It's that kind of thing that in my culture, we do not live with our parents past

the moment we are ready to leave. So I haven't experienced that. But for a lot of the women we support, that's the norm. They live in these very large extended families. And that brings a lot of pressure on them as mothers. Wow. It is amazing what you're doing. And yeah, I mean, I can obviously only speak from my really privileged background of how hard I found it. So the fact that you're helping, I guess, the people that absolutely need it the most, but in terms of a doula, I actually did end up getting a doula, but only like two months in. And I needed it more because I was, I didn't get paternity leave. So I was kind of back at work, but I was breastfeeding. So I couldn't obviously go to an office. I was working. I mean, it was lockdown as well, but I needed somebody to basically just like, watch my child and bring

him to me when I fed. But I know there'll be lots of people who are pregnant. And it's weird that there is this service of a doula. And whether you can afford a doula or not is one question. I actually have no idea how much it costs for pregnancy, but we don't even know that the service is there. What is the role of a doula and how does it differ to like a midwife? Yeah, so doulas are like completely non-medical sort of birth workers. So midwives obviously are a regulated profession like doctors or nurses.

They attend to the woman's health throughout her pregnancy. So it's a very like, you have to have rigorous training and take exams, et cetera. Doulas, it's a much more kind of holistic thing. So there's no sort of standard training for doulas. It's much more about individuals and their experience. But generally doulas are in general women who will support women emotionally, or with sort of like complimentary services like aromatherapy or massage, things like that. Throughout their pregnancy, there's also doulas who just do postnatal, doulas who do birth, they can attend your birth with you.

There's doulas who, there are even doulas who do death doulas. So it's like working with people that are at their end of their life and kind of walking with them through that journey. So a doula is basically just someone that accompanies you on this journey that you're on. And in this case, it's generally during pregnancy and birth. What would be the role in birth? Like would they, obviously they'd be in the hospital, but how would it? Oh my gosh, all kinds of things. So, because basically as a maternity mate, we essentially do very similar things to doulas, but it can be all kinds of things. Like we really take the lead from what the woman wants. So we don't do anything medical, of course, we leave that all to the midwives, But it's things like, you know, helping the woman kind of work through her contractions, that might be like a

little massage on the back, if that feels good, or on her hand or her scalp. It might be I've danced a lot in birth rooms kind of back and forth as you know, the woman is working through a contraction, bouncing on balls together, giving her sips of water, wiping her head, fanning her, holding the little bucket while she pukes. Like, I mean, it's literally all kinds of things. And we really just are there. I mean, in addition to those practical things, it's also advocating for the woman. So it might be giving gentle reminders to the staff about, hey, remember, she said that she didn't want to do this, or she said she really wanted this thing. Can we can we look at that? And also then supporting the partner. So if there's a birth partner, like a husband or a mother or a sister, we can also, you know, attend to them and

be like, Are you okay? Do you need to take a rest? Because we obviously, of course, we're like emotionally attached to the woman, we want to see her healthy and thriving. But we're not quite we don't have quite the same maybe attachment that like their mother or sister or partner does and it can be a lot it can be really challenging to see someone that you love so much in that difficult moment of giving birth and that can be overwhelming and so we can step in and let them take a little break and we can be there for the woman while they go and kind of rest and recover until they can come back and support again so yeah it's a very flexible role we can also help with kind of rest and recover till they can come back and support again. So yeah, it's a very flexible role. We can also help with kind of early breastfeeding and ongoing breastfeeding support.

But I mean, doulas honestly are amazing. Every woman should have one if she wants one. They obviously in other parts of the country, there is a chart, you know, doulas do need to earn money to live. And so, you know, many will charge, but there's, I mean, certainly if you can afford it, I would 100% recommend it you just have to do research and kind of find the right doula for you because it'll really be about your individual connection with with the person and if you feel like you would want them there in that very vulnerable moment that's amazing I honestly had no idea that was an option I mean when you're saying all these things about the role of a doula in birth I'm like

I needed that but probably I wouldn't have been allowed it because obviously we were within the lockdown rules where you were only allowed. I mean, you were barely allowed your birth partner in, but thank goodness I did. For anyone who is listening and I mean, I'm in awe of you, but for anyone listening, thinking like, this is what I would love to do. How number one, obviously your full time, but how long would somebody need to like find like to volunteer? How much time would they need to have available and how can they get involved? And is it I know Maternity Mates is just East London, but is it a national thing? Oh, not national yet. Obviously, we would love to see it go national. So we are currently in East London.

yet, obviously, we would love to see it go national. So we're currently in East London. So if you live anywhere, sort of within 45 minutes of Newham, Tower Hamlets or Waltham Forest, we would love for you to volunteer with us. For our program, we have like quite an extensive training. It's about six weeks of training. And it's really great if you're thinking about maybe getting into midwifery or you want, you know, you want to get practical skills to go into a job like breastfeeding counseling or antenatal classes like NCT or really anything. It's just a great way to get practical skills. So yeah, if you're in East London, you can visit our website, whfs.org.uk to see when our training schedule is. The training is really great. Now, if you're around the country and this is something that you're really interested in, I would suggest that you have a look, just Google like doulas near you

and just reach out to one of them and have a chat about their, because that's what I did actually, was I reached out to doulas when I lived in Manchester and said, hey, I'm really interested. I don't know if I want to be a doula, but like, what do you do? And so many of them are happy to meet up and have a chat about what it is that they do and how you can get involved because there are many different doula training programs but it's a really great thing to look at but yeah if you're in east london come with us because we there are so many women who want our support and we are sort of a bit more maybe sort of regulated and official than other doula services only because we are we operate partially kind of commissioned via the NHS and with local authorities as well we have got really good partnerships because like you say one of the problems during the pandemic was

that they weren't even letting birth partners there was such a huge restriction on the number of birth partners and who could come to antenatal appointments and scans and stuff and thankfully because we had a really good sort of partnership in place with the hospitals our maternity mates were able to get into many of the birth rooms but it shouldn't take us being involved for women to have who they want with them at that crucial moment. So hopefully we won't ever see ourselves in a situation like that again, because I can't imagine how that must have felt during the pandemic. I honestly feel like, I hope the history books, I mean, I find it shameful that anyone would make a person going through childbirth do any part of that or scan on their own.

You know, I spoke to one guest on my podcast, Rhiannon. She had to give birth in a mask. Like it's totally inhumane. But anyway, like you said, hopefully we are through those times. Especially given that people could go to the pub during a lot of that time as well. Well, and you know, Boris was having parties and wine and cheese nights. So yeah. I know that you obviously deal with so many women.

And for anyone listening who is maybe, whether they're pregnant or a new mom, and they are feeling isolated, regardless of their background, your mom and they are feeling isolated regardless of you know their their background what what are the like top tips that you would give them to kind of feel more empowered and to feel like to improve their kind of circumstances and mental health yeah definitely i mean like if it's safe to do so reach out for support obviously like if you're in you know a domestic violence situation or things like that you know you have to mind your safety and do what's right. But if you're just really isolated and you don't have a big network and maybe your family's not here or you're new in the country, honestly, just take the first step.

And I know it's scary, but like embrace the discomfort and reach out for support. That might just be like, walk down to your local children's center and see what classes they have on now that things have reopened. Baby massage is really great if you are, you know, your baby's still quite little. Even just Google mom and baby groups near me because there are a lot, especially if you're low income or you don't have a lot of extra money. There are ones that are suited to every income level. What's great about our service is that we can be there with women during that kind of scary moment of like, oh, I don't know if I'm ready to leave the house yet with my little baby. We can be there to encourage them,

go, no, it's good. Let's go for a walk together. But not everyone has that. And so, you know, you have, you do have to put some effort in to try to build that network. But that might just mean reach out to a friend. Don't be afraid to ask for help, especially because the thing is, if you think back historically, women used to raise children together, like it literally took a village, there was a reason why there were wet nurses who women would breastfeed other babies, etc. Because everyone worked together to raise children. And now it's like, our moms don't even really talk to us about like what their birth was like. And that's no shame on them. It's just like, we don't share realistic information. Even like

you said, you know, you had no idea what a lot of it was going to be like, especially that postpartum period, because we just don't talk about it. And I think what we need to do is just start talking about it a lot more, which is why podcasts like yours are great, because we don't want to scare women, but we need to talk about the reality of like what it's like to have a baby and the period after especially. And it's funny, isn't it? Because I mean, I talk about the reality of like what it's like to have a baby and the period after especially and it's funny isn't it because i mean i talk about this a lot on social media but the whole narrative around the postnatal experience is always boiled down to snapping back or losing baby weight and like it's so i mean it's not even like the iceberg in titanic because actually it's potentially dangerous to like lose weight or go back to exercise too soon. And it kind of like also simplifies this really

complicated recovery process that is spiritual, emotional, psychological, mental, and of course, physical. Like it can be dangerous to go to lose weight or to go on these crazy exercises. And also it kind of like weaponizes women's bodies because you can be like oh she's lost too much weight she's not a good role model or oh she I don't know it is really frustrating and even this whole idea of like whenever there's a birth announcement it's always the same generic like mother and baby doing well there is no like human conversation around what exactly the mother yeah it's always like glossed over a bit and then yeah because as long as the baby's healthy oh you should be happy and it's like it doesn't matter if you came out you know if you're both physically well

what if it was a really traumatizing experience for you like we have to give space to moms to be honest like if they hated their birth or right away, they looked at their baby and were like, no, this isn't for me. I don't want to be a mother. I don't want this anymore. It's okay to have those feelings. Like a lot of people have those feelings and we have to give space. It doesn't mean you're a bad mother or a bad parent at all. In fact, it just means you're going through a normal amount of emotions, thinking, processing this immense experience that you've just had. And we have to create, and that's what we try to do at Maternity Mates is create these trusting and safe

spaces for them to feel like they can tell us all the really, like everything from the high highs to the really low lows. Like it's okay to feel all of those emotions because you will, your hormones are going to make that happen. And that's totally okay. But I think it's all part of this like mom guilt. People feel like if they say any of that stuff that, oh, everyone's going to think they're a bad person or they're a bad mom, and they're going to call social services. And it's like, no, it's okay. You can say like, oh, this isn't what I expected it would be, or I'm really unhappy, I need help. It's okay to have all of those emotions. And I think we just try to build a space where women feel like they can do that. And that's a piece of advice I would give is do your best to surround yourself with people who will give you that kind of non judgmental

place to feel that range of emotions. And if you don't have that, even if it's just writing down what you're feeling, or talking to your GP and saying, I need a place to be able to do this, because I'm not coping well with the feelings, Like it's any range of those things. Cause that really will, it really will help you to kind of get it off your mind a little bit. I also think, you know, for all of the negatives that you hear about social media, as someone who was a lockdown mom, who experienced all the dark thoughts and feeling lonely, the people that I've like found and followed on social media, I feel like the mum community on social media,

like when you find your people who are going through what you go through, who make you feel less alone, like you realise like, wow, it's really normal to feel like this. But of course, you know, people like you doing what you're doing with maternity mates. I honestly, I have so much respect for you. And I really hope anyone listening who does live around East London gets in touch. doing what you're doing with maternity mates. I honestly, I have so much respect for you. And I really hope anyone listening who does live around East London gets in touch and I'll make sure that I put the email and the website and all the links, like the relevant links below.

But I am going to let you go because I know that you're on call for a birth. Yeah. We should have a look. Has she had her baby? No, we've still got time. So it's okay. Oh, six days overdue. I remember that. I remember that so well when you're ready to be like, each day it comes, you're like, is it going to be today? Is it going to be today? And obviously everyone keeps asking you and you're like, no, but you know what? That's the joy. That's the joy of this type of work is that we just, we respect women and their schedules and their babies because babies come when babies want to come. We can't generally can't set a time on it so we do our best to work around them and yeah it's just but yeah thank you so much for having me it's like

really lovely to be able to talk about what we do and also just to say despite all that kind of negative stuff the community that exists when women need it and especially during lockdown that we saw it's just incredible when people say I need help, the way the community rallies around them to watch that happen in real time and to be a part of it. There's no greater joy. And even if you don't live in East London, I guarantee you like on social media, if you have a look in your area, there will be something similar because women want to help other women. It's just the way of the world. And yeah, if you have a chance to do that, definitely do it. It so rewarding oh kelly thank you so much for your time i so appreciate it i

absolutely loved our chat and yeah you speak so eloquently about it and yeah you're amazing thank you oh thank you so much well thank you to all the women who let me be with them on this journey because it is such a privilege wow i, I feel like I'm so inspired after speaking to Kelly. Hopefully you find it useful even just to know what a doula is. It is crazy that we aren't really told about the services that are available to us. But yeah, it'd be so nice if that service existed around the country. So hopefully, even if there are doulas listening who thinks they could implement that elsewhere, I'm sure. As we all know that there are just so much that comes in that postnatal period. So the fact that there are people out there helping vulnerable women is just absolutely amazing. I do want to

share this post that I got actually this week on Instagram by Pearlie. So she said, I discovered your podcast around a month ago. My little girl is three months now. I listened to one podcast, sometimes two a day whilst walking with her. They make me feel less lonely as a new man. And I absolutely love your open, non-judgmental attitude. I can relate to so many things too. I finished all of them and I can't wait for the next one to come out. That is honestly so nice. Sometimes I feel like I'm just talking into the abyss, especially when you're like covering quite difficult topics. So just to let you know that I really appreciate it. And I always love to hear from you. So please get in touch,

whether it's on WhatsApp, where you can send a voice message for free at 075-999-27537. That's 075-999-27 seven five three seven or of course you can email us at askmumsthewordpod at gmail.com or leave us a review on apple podcast where i see them as well but thank you so much as always for listening and i'll be back same time same place next week on each step with palatine from their pop runs to walk and talks you define what it means to be a runner whatever your level embrace it journey starts when you say so if you've got five minutes or 50 peloton tread has workouts you can work in or bring your classes with you for outdoor runs walks and hikes led by expert instructors on the Peloton app.

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