Mum's The Word! The Parenting Podcast - Marianne Levy on the Unspoken Truths About Motherhood

Episode Date: June 19, 2022

This week on Mum's The Word, Ashley is joined by actor, journalist, writer and mum of 2 Marianne Levy. They're talking about the loneliness of motherhood, dealing with the aftermath of difficult births, learning to advocate for oneself in medical settings and the importance of continuing support after the new-born stage. Marianne's latest book 'Don't Forget To Scream: Unspoken Truths About Motherhood' will be available from July 21st 2022 and you can pre-order it now! If you want to ask Ashley a question, get in touch at [e-mail]---A Create Podcast Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

there is a very slim chance i might have to interrupt this podcast and be sick probably not the most exciting way to start a podcast but i don't know what's happened this week but between alf and i we are battling something well i know what he's battling he's battling his back molars and it is the first time that we've had real pain, I think, with teething. I felt like he was a trooper, that we'd kind of avoided all the big teething drama. But last night he was up all night. It took me back to deal with that every night anymore. But oh my goodness, it was so sad, like him screaming in pain and it resulted in me feeding him watermelon at 1am because it seems to be the only thing that gets him through the teething pain. He was going,

which means melon. So I was like, Tommy, go get the watermelon. He was like, we can't give him watermelon. It's one in the morning. I was like, my child needs watermelon. He can have watermelon. He's having his molars but on top of that I don't know why I just feel very sick but hopefully I will be able to power through I mean my podcast basically started with me having

postnatal depression so if I can power through that and deliver an hour episode then I can power through this and it's actually a very topical conversation about the juggle and the kind of like lows and challenges of motherhood like being sick and still having to power through and being a mom and being up through the night which is why I'm really excited about this episode and it'll be so good for anyone who is just feeling the struggle the challenge and maybe even questioning as I did many months ago, what have I done? Why did no one tell me motherhood was going to be like this? And I feel like the thing about becoming a mom is it's so ordinary, isn't it? Like,

how many people have become moms before us? But when we're going through it, it's like, well, yeah, like falling in love or like losing someone and alongside all the sleeplessness and the wonder it can be such a shock to the system when you totally sort of go through this thing that I like to call matricence that sort of learning your mom identity so this week I am joined by the author of Don't Forget to Scream, Unspoken Truths About Motherhood. It's actor, journalist and mum of two, Marianne Levy. Hello, thank you so much for having me. Thank you. Thank you. And I'm really sorry that you've had such a rough night and you feel so ill. I think it's so good that you told me because we

sort of just pretend and carry on and put our game face on and actually you're not you're feeling crap today and I've I really feel for you so thank you so much for still having me no thank you and also I actually was meant to record this at the beginning of the week and I had zero voice so thank you for being patient and I know especially when you're a mum how precious time is and yeah And yeah, it's funny, isn't it? Why do we feel the need to put our game faces on and pretend that everything is great? Yeah. And I looked on your stories that day and I saw that you were suffering from terrible, terrible anxiety.

And I also was suffering from terrible, terrible anxiety because this is the first time I've spoken to anybody about the book that's not my editor. So I was absolutely sort of woke up that morning, heart pounding, feeling sick, feeling worried, feeling nervous. And then I looked in your stories and you were feeling exactly the same. And I just thought, oh my goodness,

like this is just, oh, poor both of us. Well, first of all- Poor both of us that this is happening to us. Also, please don't feel anxious about talking about the book because I know this is gonna help so many mumsums like the unspoken truth about motherhood why do you think society glosses over motherhood so much like and also not necessarily glosses over it because i remember and i cringe by the way when i say this so i'm so sorry for being this person i apologize for my

past self but i remember when I was pregnant being like firstly I'm not going to be one of those mums that only talks about my baby not realizing that there would be a year in his life where I literally had nothing else to talk about and I hated myself for it and number two me saying things like mums are so negative I'm not going to be like those mums mums are so negative and rather than me kind of hearing the sort of echo cry of shit, this is really fucking hard. And this is unequal. And why are we not getting help?

Whether that's with childcare or paternity leave or whatever it might be. Me, someone I thought, me in my past, was a feminist, was basically just bashing mums being like, I'm not going to be negative like them what yeah yeah I'm totally with you on all of that because I felt a lot of that stuff and I think I mean it's it's really hard to unpick but I've thought about it a lot particularly over lockdown and I think changing things and making them better for mothers and for parents requires such a massive societal shift. And nobody really wants to do that unless you're in the

situation yourself. And so the best possible way to ignore it is to kind of make it feel tedious to listen to. It's sort of a lie. Do you know when people talk about women nagging and it's such a gender specific word and what they actually mean is women complaining about something that they probably have every right to complain about. Nagging to do a bit more housework, nagging to do this, nagging to... No, that just means asking for help or making it clear that you're unhappy. But we put that gender specific tag on it and that makes it tedious and annoying. And I feel like it's like that, but with mothers. I have a memory and I'm sure it wasn't an isolated incident, but in my early 20s or mid 20s, when I was single and I'd be out a lot.

And I remember being around men, not necessarily men that I was dating, but, you know, chit chatting or men in groups of people that I was dating but you know chit-chatting or men in groups of people that I was with and then being like oh I better go because the missus is going to be nagging that I'm still out and I remember being like I'll never be like one of those mums and now I'm like hang on a minute firstly what were you doing out with girls in their 20s and second of all she's probably nagging because you've been at work all day and she's been at home on her own trying to like look after the kids and the house and everything else and now you're out drinking get home but at the time I was just like oh my god I'm never gonna be like that and I also wonder how much those men maybe were then doing a completely different thing when they

got home oh I had to get away I found it really to get out. I had to show my face at work and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And how much of, how much of what they were showing you when you were out drinking was a kind of performative thing as well. A kind of performing masculinity thing, because maybe it doesn't feel cool that you have to race back and look after your baby. I hope that's what they were doing. And they weren't just escaping to have a nice drink. That's interesting, isn't it? The performing masculinity. Yeah. And I also think it's interesting. You used the word that was initially the working title for my book when you were doing your intro, the matrescence thing.

Okay. That was, and we wanted to call it that, but of course a lot of people don't know what that word means. So it, you know, we ended up going, we can't call a book a word that isn't kind of in common usage, but it should be in common can't call a book a word that isn't kind of in common usage. But it should be in common usage because I think it's something that happens to women when they become mothers. And men, it can often happen that bit more slowly. And I wonder if it's because they don't have that physical experience. So you can go out and drink that much longer.

You can maybe pretend to yourself, pretend to everyone else that this thing hasn't happened to you. And that doesn't feel like an option when you become a mother. It feels so complete and so fast. And I find that really fascinating. For anyone that doesn't know, do you have a good definition of what matri-sense is? Well, I think it's an anthropological term, isn't it? And it's basically what happens to your sense of self as you become a mother. It's that kind of psychological change that happens to a woman.

Would you agree with that? I think it's quite a new world, isn't it? I think it is, yeah. The birth of a mom, isn't it? It's that transitionary period. And I guess for different people, it starts at different times because, you know, I loved my pregnancy. I loved the newborn stage.

I have friends who hated pregnancy and hated the newborn stage. Obviously, all our circumstances and health and babies are all so different. But it is that transition of like for me, it was the total feeling so low of like, what the hell have I done? And being like, I've ruined my life this is the most permanent mistake of my life I miss being able to travel and to DJ and my friends and bear in mind like for anyone listening I was also a lockdown mum so it's very hard for me to decipher how much of this was lockdown and how much of this was motherhood and if I ever do motherhood again it'll be really interesting for me to kind

of see what differences I experience although I do think becoming a mum the first time is the thing that is the hardest with the identity because that's when you're kind of giving up and I guess the old part of you is dying that's that is it isn't it you're grieving your old self but I don't want anyone to be like oh my goodness goodness, I liked my old self. It comes back. And apart from last night, I am in the highs of motherhood and speaking as someone who never wanted kids. And that was a big part of why I thought I'd made the biggest mistake in my life. It does come back. But Marianne, let's just kind of talk about what your book is about. I know it says unspoken truths about motherhood,

but what are these unspoken truths? And then how will it help people? I'll start actually. Can I start by sort of saying a bit about how the book came to happen? Because that explains quite nicely about the unspoken truths. So I had a very rocky start to motherhood. I had a difficult pregnancy, terrible, terrible birth with my daughter. And for the first few weeks and months, I felt terribly, terribly alone. And this sort of real

sense that I would say occasionally, you know, I can't cope or everything is awful. Or I mean, I missed seeing my friends. I missed doing this. I missed going for a poo. I mean, it was sort of, it was, it was that simple in the first few weeks. It was absolutely, I mean, I missed seeing my friends. I missed doing this. I missed going for a poo. I mean, it was it was sort of it was it was that simple in the first few weeks. I really I felt like I didn't know what I'd done, like a bomb had gone off inside me. And I was kind of clutching all these sort of shattered bits of who I thought I was and trying to present who the world wanted me to be. And I felt like a lot of the time when I tried to explain it to people, you know, even those absolutely closest to me, they couldn't hear me. There was such a sense of, well, you look fine and everyone is healthy and you'll be okay. You'll cope. It gets better. And I find it's really interesting that particularly in the sort of first weeks and months of motherhood, it's the only situation I've

ever encountered before where you can say something like, I can't cope. And not only do people not really hear you, they don't even really take it in. They just sort of brush you off. And in any other situation, people be rushing around, what can I do? How can I help? What's happened? But they sort of knew what had happened, that I'd become a mum. And they thought, well, she'll probably sort herself out and everything looks all right. And so on we all go. And this went on for years, pretty much. I had a really difficult time. And then after I had my son, and I had him by elective section, and then he was quite sick. He was in the NICU for a few days. And then I had some post-operative infections. And so when I came back from the hospital with him and people were asking how I

was, I just didn't have the words to give them that I thought that they could hear. And what I ended up doing, and it's funny, it almost felt involuntary, is that I wrote a very short piece and put it on Medium online. And I don't have a big Twitter following. I'm a children's writer is what I've been doing before this book. But I put this very short piece online and just sort of said, well, I've had a baby. This is how I am. And the piece was called Two Weeks and it's in the book. And my little boy was two weeks old. And in it, I felt like I could say the things that I couldn't say to people's faces. I felt like somehow I was freer just to keep talking on the page because no one could stop me.

No one could say, well, it's all worth it or you seem fine or it'll get better. And I could just talk. And I put it online and it got this massive response that I wasn't expecting in any shape or form. And everyone was like, oh my God, that is what it was like when I had a child. And some of those people were saying, this takes me back to 20 years ago when I had my child. And I felt like I could pin something down in that way that I couldn't just talking. And then over the kind of next few months, and then over the kind of next few months I wrote a couple more pieces and then going into lockdown I wrote quite an angry piece about how I just felt like particularly in lockdown because my husband was working full-time so I had to give up work completely to look after both our children

and I felt like I just lost myself completely and that was after that I was approached by an editor who said look I would I think this writing could be really helpful to people. And would you consider turning it into a book? So that's sort of, that's how it came to happen. And I suppose what I felt is that the unspoken truths are the things that either you can't say to people because they don't like to hear it. People don't like to hear, I feel ambivalent about motherhood. People don't like to hear people say, I can't cope. I'm struggling. I'm frightenedent about motherhood. People don't like to hear people say, I can't cope, I'm struggling, I'm frightened, I'm angry. People don't like angry mothers. It doesn't go with our vision of what mothers should be. And so it's easier to be angry on the page I found than in

person. And I found it very freeing to write all of this stuff, but quite scary now that other people are reading it. no honestly I can't wait to read it I know it will be helpful because I used to and I've spoken about this on previous podcast episodes but they're like I said I loved that first four five months and then when it got to sort of six months and we sort of came out of lockdown and I moved house and I think I realized suddenly the exhaustion hit Alf isn't sleeping he was up every 30 minutes to an hour max every single night and I remember at that point feeling like everyone feels like no one's asking how I am anymore and now the novelty of me having a child has gone. So people aren't sending cooked meals or flowers or baby grows or whatever people do.

I mean, it's amazing how generous and kind people are when you have a baby. But suddenly it was like, oh, when can we see you? Or we never hear from you anymore. And then work also being like, you've missed this deadline. Or when are you going to do this? Or when are you going to do that? And I didn't even know some days whether it was day or night because I was just like in this total sleep cloud yeah and then I like you I felt really I remember saying to my

friend like I'm really struggling and I feel like I've made this really horrible permanent mistake and she was and I and I get that you know postnatal depression is something that's really important and of course it's really important to talk to people but it was always dismissed as you must be depressed go talk to someone but actually yes there's an element of that but motherhood is really fucking hard and when we see it glossy whether that's online although I am really pleased that the online world is changing and people are sharing like more honest perceptions of it or in films, it's always this glossy thing. And as someone who was single for six years up until three months before I got

pregnant, you know, I was always kind of told that I was failing or I was missing out or why am I single? Why don't I want kids? Don't. And it was this sort of, this sort of like, well, you're a failure unless you've got marriage and kids or a partner and kids. So when I had it, I was like, what the hell? Like, why is this like the pillar of success when it's awful? And I remember Googling in the night because I was way too ashamed to admit it to anyone for fear of them thinking that I wasn't a good mom.

And I've always been a good mom and I've always been a good mom I've always loved my child but I there was I came across this book called something um I can't even remember it now but it was about regretting motherhood and it was written in I think like 70s or 80s I need to find it and I will share it in the in the blurb below but it kind of gave me hope because I was like wow like someone else feels like this and even though it was very controversial and I think but exactly what you're saying it doesn't fit with the narrative people have and also that society ultimately needs because we need children. It's our happy ending you were living the happy ending and so at the

point where you say actually my happy ending isn't currently happy, it's really disturbing to people. And they, I don't know how much you got of this, but I think I got quite a lot of, I would say, you know, I'm in hell. And people are, you know, I had a hellish first birth. Absolutely. You know, it took five days. It was awful. And I got a lot of people saying to me, but isn't it worth it? but isn't it worth it? It felt like such an odd thing to say, isn't it worth it? And I sort of think if you had a car crash, you would never go and visit somebody in hospital and say, but cars are great. I mean, isn't it worth it? And people use it as an excuse then not to give good care because you say, well, ultimately children are great, happy endings are lovely, you look fine, you seem fine. So whatever you're going, whatever is happening to you internally is worth it for this kind of higher prize. And then as a result, our kind of internal selves get completely trashed because it becomes incredibly shameful. It feels incredibly shameful and it shouldn't be, but it feels incredibly shameful to say, I feel wrong.

I feel like this isn't fitting me. I feel like I can't mold myself to what I have been told that I need to be. And I found that so destructive. What do you wish people had said? So for anyone who maybe is listening, who their friend is kind of maybe going through it now. And because a lot of people, it's called toxic positivity, isn't it? When it's like, you'll be fine, or it can't be that bad, or it'll get better. That's sort of dismissive, like chin up yeah it can't be so bad so what what can people say because lots of people don't say the wrong thing out of malice do they they just kind of don't know what else to say no absolutely and it's a difficult thing you know you see as somebody a new a new other a new person a new in fact, a new mother and a new person.

I mean, the biggest thing is just to keep listening, isn't it? I think people shut you down so quickly because it's uncomfortable to hear. But I think anyone who can just stay in the room and keep listening and validate what you say. Yes, that sounds awful. Yes, you were feeding your little boy watermelon at two in the morning because he was in pain and you were frightened and you yourself was feeling ill that is shit I am so so sorry and then just you don't have to say but it was worth it because he's great just stop and then you can you can kind of carry on because I I feel like when you're told so much it's fine really and it's not you start to I certainly felt like I was going mad because I didn't know what reality was anymore. What I was experiencing didn't seem to be the

same thing that other people were seeing. I don't know if you found that. I really struggled with it. Yeah, I did. I felt more a bit mad because I was like, why is this not bringing me the joy that it's meant to? And I feel like as women, we always have to caveat our feelings. Always. I see it all the time. For example, Mother's Day. We spend more of Mother's Day being like, I'm so sorry to anyone who finds this day difficult. And that's so important. Trust me, I've got friends that don't have, whether it'sums or dads and I know how difficult that day is but we can't even be like do you know what we deserve this day without worrying about each other whereas I don't see dads on father's day being like so so sorry to all the dads who are struggling with today or you know whatever it might be and I feel like as women

we're like we shouldn't complain because we are one of the lucky ones. How many women are infertile? How many women are struggling to conceive? Friends of mine as well. And I'm not dismissing the struggles of that, but we constantly dismiss. It's like even in lockdown, how difficult was it to go through a pandemic, to not see friends and loved ones, to worry about the health of loved ones. But we always in our heads are like but other people have it worse we need to like shut up put up we're being ungrateful

good vibes good vibes you know we should be happy because that's what society tells us we should be and we don't want to be negative but interesting and also we often end up only talking to each other i feel like because then you only ever talk to other mothers because you can't talk to your friends who want children about how hard it is. And you can't talk to it because you feel like you're somehow weighing your difficulties against each other. And that shouldn't be how it is. And your friends who want children would probably love to hear in the same way that I want to communicate this book to men. I want men to hear what it is like because it's so hard to talk to them because we feel it's not relevant to them

because it's only relevant to us. And so everyone ends up staying in their little boxes and no one talks to anybody and everyone feels isolated and we're not connected as a society. And it just, it makes everything worse for everyone, I think. It's so interesting because I was speaking this week to a friend of mine who is single

in her thirties and as I was up until a couple of years ago. And she was just saying, but I'm so lonely, Ashley. And I was like, I was so lonely in my first year of motherhood. And I was also lonely at times. For me, loneliness is a state of mind rather than a relationship status because we can have people around us us but feel lonely. And I was like, isn't there something really mad about society that lots of us feel lonely? Like new moms feel lonely and a lot of women who are single feel lonely.

But no one's being lonely together. No one's like, we don't have that community and I think back to all of the friends that I had well a couple of friends who became mums in the time that I was like single and not doing anything on my weekends because I was like well I've got nothing to do and no one to do it with and I was like I wish I'd just got the train to their house and been like go for a nap I'm gonna look after the baby even though I wasn't like particularly maternal and that would have like filled my day but it also would have like supported my friends and I even said to them God, I'm actually embarrassed of how little I helped before I had a baby. I just had no idea. And I'd say things like, it's so nice that you don't just talk about your kids.

Like, it's so nice that you're like that. And I never asked about their kids and I feel awful. But my only saving grace is that my friend Jackie was like, do you know what? I actually loved hanging out with you because in a time where I felt like my entire identity became about me being a mom, you were the only person that made me feel like I'm not a mom. I was just the same old Jackie because you never treated me like a mom. And it's interesting what you were saying about your old self dying and sort of finding your new self because I think in your first year, I mean, there's quite a lot in, there's a big essay in the book on mat leave because I was astonishingly lonely on mat leave.

And you're encouraged like mad to make new mum friends or whatever. But it's really hard to suddenly make a group of friends wherever you're going. You know, when you leave home, it's very hard to suddenly find the perfect group. And if you're also trying to do that when you're incredibly sleep deprived and if you're

feeling ambivalent about why you're even in that room, if you're worried that, you know, you've made a mistake or you feel weird about becoming a mother, then having to make friends with people with that kind of public face on, I found very, very hard. I know a lot of people don't, but I found it really difficult. And I wanted to see my old friends and I wanted to kind of cling on to my old self. And so I hid from my friends that I knew before I had children, how hard I was finding it. And I hid from my new mum friends, how hard I was finding it. Cause I didn't want to kind of bring us all down. So then I had no one to speak to. And I had, and then I, again, I felt like I was going mad and I don't understand why

I did that. Now, looking back, it must be shame. I suppose it's all I can think. On each step with Peloton from their pop runs to walk and talks, you define what it means to be a runner, whatever your level embrace it. Journey starts when you say so. If you've got five minutes or 50, Peloton Tread has workouts you can work in. Or bring your classes with you for outdoor runs, walks, and hikes led by expert instructors on the Peloton app. Call yourself a runner. Peloton all-access membership separate. Learn more at onepeloton.ca slash running. Welcome to Paranormal Activity with me, Yvette Fielding, a brand new podcast bringing together

people's real ghost, extraterrestrial and paranormal stories, as well as getting some inside details from those who study the supernatural. I'll be listening through your paranormal stories every week and try to understand them, as well as chatting about my own encounters with an occasional paranormal investigator too. You can find us wherever you get your podcasts from, including Apple Podcasts, Spotify and Acast. Just search for Paranormal Activity with Yvette Fielding. What do you wish that you had done looking back? So for anyone who's kind of in the thick of it now, what would be your advice to them of how they can handle it so that they're not feeling mad or they're not feeling like they're failing at motherhood or being negative. I suppose I wish I had said to my friends who didn't have children

just how hard I was finding it and just how lonely I was. And I remember when I was on mat leave, I saw there was a friend I was down to see and I was really looking forward to seeing her and I'd not seen anyone for a couple of days. And it's so lonely when you've got a new baby. And my husband worked very long hours. And I remember she messaged me about an hour before we were going to meet up and said, I'm so sorry. I've just seen a double book to you with a hairdresser. Can we leave it?

And I texted back. I was like, yeah, sure. It's cool. It's totally fine. And then, you know, went off and had a massive cry because I was like, I'm not going to see anyone now for 12 hours. I should have just said, can I meet you after your haircut? Like, or can I sit with you in the salon or something? I'm feeling really rotten. Can we meet? But I didn't know how to say that. I didn't, or I was worried that if I did say it,

she would say no, because people don't necessarily understand that level of loneliness so I it's very hard to communicate better and I also hope that things have moved on in the few years because my daughter is eight now and I hope that the national conversation has moved on a bit and people are a bit more aware but I think trying and then keeping trying to be honest because I also I think when I tried to be honest and people told me it was worth it or I was fine, I immediately let myself be shut down. And that was a massive mistake. I wish I'd carried on talking even and despite and made them listen to me, because I think that would have been a game changer. And then when, you know, these very same friends then had children a year or two later, they wouldn't necessarily have been in the situation that you found yourself in of going, oh, my God, why did no one tell me about this? Because actually people are talking about it.

It's just very hard to hear them. Yeah, it is hard, though, isn't it? Because then you had people like me being like, and I see other people who are pregnant online being like, I'm not going to be negative. And it's hard not to be like, just you you know the dreaded just you wait if you're thinking of saying just you wait and something negative don't because let people be on their own journey and also the things you find hard they might not find hard but i'm like do you know what i've been there i'm ready to welcome you in with open arms when you when you when you enter the match of sense and it's just making it a joined up experience isn't it?

Being able to talk about the love and being able to talk about the wonderful things and in the same breath say, and it's also really difficult. And I also feel like I've lost a lot of myself and I'm looking for how to find a way to get that back again. And it's all connected together.

I think that's what people don't realize. There's either the kind of Instagram glossy glory of it or the kind of absolute negative despair of it. And it's bridging those two things. And it's saying that on any given day, I can feel all of that at the same time, or I can swing in a pendulum between those two things in the same 15 minutes. I can be on my knees or heart full of joy. And that's what motherhood is. And I don't think we hear enough of that and I don't think we hear enough of that I don't think we hear enough of the kind of the mess the glorious awful mess of it all it's too neat when we when we talk about it's far too neat it's so true isn't it and yeah I mean I'm definitely finding like the highs and

the lows and whereas for a long time it was just the lows whereas now it is it's like you said even like being up in the night like he's so cute looking like eating his little watermelon and even though it's hard and it's tough and you know not being able to be sick anymore as a mum because you've got responsibilities like it's so hard but it's worth it now it's worth it for me now because the highs are as good as the low or the highs outweigh the lows should I say but when you were saying about that your example of your friend cancelling on you because she double booked I it took me back to I think the lowest day when I was having really dark thoughts and Tommy was meant to be going to the rugby with his uncle or something Tommy's my partner and I was meant to be seeing a friend she

was going to come over to mine for the day and It was around the time that I found it hard with Alf because he wasn't really even sitting up or walking, but he needed constant entertainment. I found it very hard and monotonous. I had a feeling of dread, the thought of having to look after him for a long extended period of time, especially a whole day. I should caveat this and say, because we moved out to Essex and the rugby was at Twickenham, it was two hours there. Then he wanted to go to the pub for an hour. Then the match was two hours and then it was two hours back. And I remember doing the maths being like, that's eight, eight, nine. You're going to, you're going to be away for the day. And he was like, yeah. Like, what did you think? And I was like that you'd be gone for the two hours of, and I, and I was, I just, I was

like, I can't do it. I can't do it. My friend cancelled on me that morning and he just couldn't go because I was a mess. I was like, you can't leave me on my own here. And it's awful, isn't it? But my friend still has no idea that for her, it was probably that she woke up hungover and couldn't be asked to spend the day with the baby, which is her total right. But for me, it left me completely blindsided and also meant that Tommy, thankfully, thankfully for me, not so thankfully for him and his uncle had to miss a game of rugby that he'd been really looking forward to. But I just wouldn't have coped. And I never would have thought about that.

But it was so good that you said it because it's so and it sounds so reasonable. Oh, my, you know, my partner's just going to go for a day at the rugby. He'll be back in eight hours. That sounds like it should be fine and until you're in it feeling as you say that cold sick horror dread you go it's not fine and and I only realize now that it's not fine and then and then I felt you know because I've had absolutely the same conversations and you feel like a mad woman going please please don't leave me I'm frightened and you look like a mad woman going, please, please don't leave me. I'm frightened. And you look at the scene and it's a baby sort of waving and smiling and a mum who's probably, you know, in a dressing gown, but looks okay.

And you think there's nothing wrong with this. No, when you're inside that mum's head, everything is wrong with it. Please don't go. Don't leave me. You just sort of see this endless, time changes as well when you have a very small baby. You know, eight hours going to see the rugby passes in a snap. Eight hours sitting at home with a small baby is several years in,

certainly as I experienced it. And they say things like, oh, he's grown so quickly. And I used to think it's been very slow. It's just, I feel like I've been awake for every second of it, if nothing else. And partly because I think it has an emotional intensity to it as well, that you experience every second. There's no sort of zoning out with a baby. Yeah, and I think it's the relentlessness, isn't it?

And it's part of that identity thing. Like you get so used in the pre-kid times of like, oh, I'm tired. I'll have a nap. Or, oh, there's this new Netflix show on. I'll just watch that. But you don't get that downtime and also it's something that people don't understand because if you're tired they're like at least you get to relax on the weekend and I'm like what is weekend what is I

don't get to sleep on holiday we go like holidays they're not holidays anymore what that's just same shit but different venue and you know maybe, maybe some sunshine, but like, God, and it does get better. And of course it does. And it's interesting. I thought that you were saying last night that it felt better. And I noticed that he'd used the word for melon and you could therefore understand what he wanted and you had a communication. And for me, a lot changed when I could communicate with them. And I knew what my children wanted. That made it so much easier. And they don't they you know, you sort of see personality and you're communicating as two fellow humans rather than a sort of bottomless pit of beautiful, gorgeous need that you're kind of keep keep throwing things out in the hope that something will stick.

Whereas, yeah, Melon, you go for Melon. You felt better. You felt like a great mum I mean an exhausted ill mum but nonetheless you could you could make him happy in that moment and that that was really big and I suppose as well because because the sleepless nights are much fewer and far between I almost appreciated the late night cuddles because I was like oh we used to do this and it's a one-off thing. Whereas when it's every single hour of every single night for 12 months, that was torture. Whereas now I'm like, I've got this. He's sick. He needs his mom. Like mom's going to be here for me, even though I can't lift my head up because of my headache and I might be sick, but mom's going to enjoy the cuddles in bed. Do you mind me asking, because weirdly, oh my God, and I can't

believe I'm actually going to admit this on the podcast, but my friend's just had a baby, Lucy Meck, and I got to meet her and I'm almost feeling broody and I'm like, what the hell is wrong with me? How have I just gone through this whole journey and why is my mind now making me question? And by the way, I don't know if I can have another one. Obviously, I talked a few weeks ago on the show about how I experienced an unknown loss. But if the thoughts are there, like what is this poison that comes into our minds where we survive this mattress sense and we survive all of the sleep deprivation and then we're mad enough to do it again. And you are one of those people. You are mad enough to do it again. we're mad enough to do it again. And you are one of those people. You are mad enough to do it again. I was mad enough to do it again. So my difficulty, I never particularly thought about motherhood before I became a mother. I sort of had this vague picture that I would have children maybe at some point, but my husband was sort of far more certain about it all than me. Whereas I'd sort of

just messing around with it in my head. I didn't have this set picture of what I wanted my future to be. But, and I suppose I therefore thought, well, if I do have a child, I'll probably have more than one because that's what people do. But then when I was in labor with my daughter on about day three, I remember making a promise to myself going, you can't, this cannot happen to you again. This, we're done. Whatever goes. And of course, then when we were considering that promise, yeah, that terrible promise. And I sort of said, well, you know, very reasonable promise. And then when we were looking at having another, I still thought, well, I can't, this can't happen again. This cannot happen again. And so then suddenly we were in

this sort of situation where I had to say, well, okay, I can do pregnancy again, but nothing is coming out that way. I get that, that, that. That exit is now closed. There is a bar down in front of it. It's sunroof or nothing. And we didn't, it's not like we had the money floating around for an elective. So I had to kind of go and beg on the NHS and beg over and over and state my case. And they all say to you, oh, it'll be easier the second time around. And I had to go, no, you can see that I'm very pregnant, but that gate is closed.

So you have to take the baby out the other way. And I did get my section, but it was, I felt, and that was even after the NICE guidelines changed because for a while you couldn't have one unless there was a medical reason. And by the time I came around to having my little boy, you could have one if you asked for one, but my God, you have to keep asking. You have to really push and really make it clear. And in the end, so I think what happened with me was that they scheduled my section the day before my due date. And I was sort of saying, that's cutting it awfully fine.

What happens if I go into labor? And they said, oh, well, it'll be fine. Well, you know, you'll just come in and you'll have your section. And I thought, I bet I won't. I'm fairly sure that there will be other people more urgently in need of sections. And then, oh, look, you're actually doing very well. And then, you know, you're back to having a vaginal birth. So in the end, I mean, sort of, say luckily, it was pretty awful, but I had gestational diabetes. And because of that, I was with a

high risk midwife and they put me onto a different list. And so I got to have the section a week earlier and that felt psychologically, it was such a relief that I wasn't going to have to do that again. But that for me, I think, again, and it's that thing of, oh, you'll be fine. And when you hear it from an obstetrician and you think, well, yes, I'll be fine from your perspective, but I won't be fine from my perspective. But it's very hard to convey that when you're sitting in a room and there's a queue of women outside the room waiting to come in and they've all got their stuff going on and to kind of hold your ground. And it was awful. And I found it really traumatizing, really hard. And now I look back and it was awful and it was awful in a different way from my

vaginal birth, but I'm still so grateful. And then I think I shouldn't have to be grateful I've had a baby that's hard enough I don't want to be grateful to everybody simply for it not being as awful as it could have been it's a very strange way to go into any relationship and especially the relationship with your children I think very difficult and very hard to talk about this is the first time I've spoken to anyone about this. So on, you know, sort of on the record as it were. Oh, well, thank you for talking to me. So I don't know if that answers your question at all, but yeah.

No, it does. Because I think what you're saying is you felt confident the second time around to demand what you wanted to make you feel empowered. And I think that's such an important message for every mom, whether you're a first time mom listening, whether you're a mom to be, because I do feel like even though I did a sort of hypnobirthing course and I did another course, like a kind of positive birthing, like a sort of NCT,

but I didn't do that. I did like a one-on-one and they all said, you know your rights and you can say what you want and you can demand what you want. So I went in with like a very kind of no sort of birth plan. I've talked about it a lot before. And then when I said I want pain relief and it never came and it never came, I was like, but I was told I can say what I want and it comes. Whereas you demanded a C-section and that was almost your non-negotiable. I can have a second one, but it has to be this way

because that's what makes me feel empowered. And it is really important for anyone listening, like do what makes you feel empowered. And by the way, whether that is bottle feeding, whether that is, you know, whatever it is, sleep training, whatever it is, like I'm sure that I've evolved so much from when I first started this podcast

and when I was saying this is what I do and this is why everyone should do it. it's like whatever makes it easy for you and whatever makes you feel like you and also like we're not we're not stupid I feel like for some reason society treats pregnant women and new mums like we're stupid and everyone has to give us their unsolicited advice because we couldn't possibly have done our own research but way weigh up, you know, weigh up all the options like a C-section or a vaginal birth. They are both births, breast, bottle, they are both food. Do what you have to do. And yeah, it's interesting because I wonder if I would demand a C-section this time round. And, but I suppose I'd have to get over a lot of

doing it differently. We are such weirdos humans. We're creatures of habit, aren't we? Well, and also there was a four-year gap between my children because I was so traumatized by the birth. There was just no, even when I felt broody, even when I held other people's babies and I saw all my friends get pregnant with their second, you know, within 18 months or whatever. And I was just like, what the fuck?

I can't, I'm not coping. And I was just like, what the fuck? I can't, I'm not coping. And I can't imagine having another and you've already done it and you seem fine. And I don't know why I'm not in that same mental space that you're in. And so I felt like a terrible failure, even as I was going around with my perfectly lovely, happy daughter and my husband and I, I mean, and inside I was inside I was screaming, my head was screaming, you're failing, you're failing, you're failing. And it was also unnecessary, I suppose. It makes me feel so sad looking back. And of course, now I look at my daughter, I've got this little boy, he's nearly four. And how he came to be in the world, whether he came out vaginally or as a C-section is neither here nor there. And yes, it felt so important and so relevant at the time.

And it felt sort of so life-defining at the time. And I thought that's such a failure. Maybe that's why we dismiss a lot of new mums because you're right, at the time, and I remember doing a podcast episode with Sophia Lispector and she, her kids are older. And she said to me, none of us as mums now sit around and say say were you

breastfed or bottle fed how did you deliver your baby it's irrelevant it's so irrelevant because it doesn't matter but when you're in that space it's the most important thing in the world and the judgment and the opinions even the opinions from people that you know that you haven't asked and the open judgment especially online but offline as well you know that you haven't asked and the open judgment, especially online, but offline as well, you know, whether it's like parents, in-laws, whoever it might be. But none of it matters in the end, does it? No. And I remember because I, and when you talk about things like breast or bottle feeding, or you talk about sleep training, and you sort of come at it, particularly, I think, before you have a child, you sort of come at it thinking what sort of parent you're going to be. And when you're in the situation, as with any situation, the parameters change, and they change so much that you find often, you can absolutely swing to the other side of what you thought you would

have thought. But how to kind of correct that with the people around you. And that's, I saw you talking about unspoken truths. I was one of the bits in the book and I fully expect people will be really upset by it. I talk about the realities of sleep training when we did it and how hard it was and how hard I found it and that it felt very necessary at the time and after in our situation for us. But that didn't mean it wasn't hard. But the problem is, if you say it was hard, immediately, if you say that in conversation with anyone, then they immediately go, well, then you shouldn't be doing it. And then suddenly, you're into a kind of moral judgment scenario. And then you can't actually just say, well, no, I've made the judgment, I'm doing this, but it's still difficult for reasons of X, Y, Z. And in a month, two months, I won't even think about this at all,

because it will have happened. It will have been over. But at the time, you're unable to speak about it with anybody. And so I'm once very secure in how we did things and very afraid of what people will say when they read the book. But of course, that's the whole thing about unspoken truths. You sort of have to say it and people react as they will. But I don't know how I'm going to feel about that when they start reacting. No, people will love it. Because like you said, what you found difficult to communicate with those around you because they felt a need to help and to fix. When people read it on pages, they connect with it and you're a stranger to them so that they're not trying to message you to say oh it's not that bad or don't worry you know they just like wow someone's someone has just read what I'm thinking or you know even this podcast hopefully

we touch on a lot of themes that people are going through and they don't know how to tell their loved ones and I know like I wish it had been around when I needed it last year. Like I said, I really, really can't wait to read it. Oh, thank you. And you shouldn't be scared because if you needed it, there will be people who need it. I hope so. So, Marianne, thank you so much. I'm going to put all the links to your book, by the way.

It's called Don't Forget to Scream, Unspoken Truths About Motherhood. And I'm also just going to share a really nice message that I got from you guys. Please keep sending them in because not just my ego, but it is lovely to hear that the podcast is helping people. And Sarah said, I listened to your podcast episode you did with Tommy yesterday. And as someone who is in between wanting and not sure about children, because I want to keep a career and feel strongly about how women are almost expected to have to give everything up, I found it hard to see how to navigate that. I can't tell you how helpful it was to hear the other side of parenthood via the brilliant questions you asked,

like viewing your partner differently, all things I feel women worry about. It was what I needed to hear. It was the first time I'd listened to your podcast, but now I'll be a regular listener. I loved it and I want to say thank you. So I'm just showing a lovely message to say thank you for everyone who has been listening in. Thank you so much, Marianne, as well for being such a brilliant guest and reminding us that A, it's good to talk, but B, it's good to listen. I hope so. And I think that's what us mums need, isn't it?

Listening, not necessarily fixing. And well done. You weren't sick, by the way. You weren't sick. I wasn't sick. You weren't sick. And actually, it's been a good distraction. Yes. I still feel horrific, but I wasn't sick and actually it's been a good distraction yes I

still feel horrific but I wasn't sick thank you so much everyone for listening to mum's the word be sure to hit the subscribe or follow button so you don't miss an episode and as always I'd love to hear from you not just compliments you can give feedback you can get in touch with whatever you want even if there's topics that you'd like me to cover that I haven't covered yet, you can WhatsApp. You can even send a voice message on WhatsApp. It's free. You can message on 075-999-27537 or email at askmumsthewordpod at gmail.com. And I'll be back with another episode, same time, same place next week.