Mum's The Word! The Parenting Podcast - Molly Forbes

Episode Date: January 24, 2022

Today Ashley is joined by author, campaigner, journalist and Founding Director of Body Happy, Molly Forbes! They're chatting everything about body image, include how we perceive ourselves and others, how the media continues to shape our views, and how parents can help their children to develop good relationships with their bodies.If you want to ask Ashley a question, get in touch at [e-mail]---A Create Podcast Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

do you know what there's something about january that i really love i'm just going straight in with this something about january that i really love because i love new beginnings but there's also something a little bit i don't know how you guys feel but like loads of pressure when it comes to january because i personally don't like new year's resolutions. Obviously, in theory, they're good. But I feel like we set ourselves the most wild, fantasized goals that ultimately you kind of just break. I wonder how many of you have already broken New Year's resolutions. Because I know when I did it, this would be around the time that I'd feel the shittest about myself. Because I was like, I promised that I would never eat potatoes.

And I had some chips. And then I'm like, promised that I would never eat potatoes and I ate I had some chips and then I'm like oh I'm a failure so I thought it'd be a really interesting podcast episode to kind of talk about that because I feel like the whole like December festive period then January it kind of is like the prime example of the sort of like diet culture that we live in isn't it because it's like celebrating indulgence and I love I love indulging all year round but in like moderation so then when it comes to January and it's like join this gym go vegan I mean going vegan is great that I'm not attacking vegans in any way but you know I mean it's this kind of thing of like you've over indulged and

now you need to strip it all back so I thought it'd be really interesting to talk about body image because I don't know about you guys but the pressure of January makes me feel like should I should I never eat potatoes again should I be spending seven days a week in the gym like I told myself I would this year like I don't know I think we just need to break it down remember that diet culture to be honest is a load of bollocks and it's already like hard enough to love yourself in this sort of world so I have the perfect guest this week I'm so excited I say this every week but I'm genuinely so excited for all my guests but particularly today's guest because we're going to be chatting all about body image body confidence and especially body image and kids so

molly forbes is an author a campaigner a journalist and founder of the body happy organization which creates workshops resources and projects to help adults help the kids in their care be friends with their bodies so this is why I'm so excited because I feel like normally we talk about body confidence in adults so to be able to discuss it amongst children I know is going to be just a really great podcast. Her work focuses on promoting positive body image in kids and her debut book Body Happy Kids How to Help Children and Teens Love the Skin They're In was published by Penguin Random House this year. Molly I'm genuinely so excited if I can get my words out today because I had a couple of drinks last night, which never happens with Tommy's family.

So not even like a wild couple of drinks. Oh, only takes one, doesn't it? Only takes one when you're a mum as well and you're kind of like not used to going out on the town every night. Yeah, one glass of wine the next day I feel it so I feel you it's fine we'll take it gentle we'll have it will be a nice conversation thank you so much for having me I'm really excited I'm so excited we actually started chatting before we

pressed record and we were like we need to press record and I have to say I loved um the show that you did alongside another friend of mine Felicity Hayward a show on channel four called Naked Beach yes yeah Felicity oh yeah that was such a lovely show to to be part of I always forget because it was a while ago that we recorded that now so I've kind of and then everything's happened like the pandemic and lockdown and things have been sort of a bit wild since then so it's nice to be reminded that I was part of that show. Thank you. Oh, it's funny, isn't it? Because talking about 2019, it does feel like another lifetime ago. I feel like we will be those old people to our grandkids or great grandkids,

like pre-COVID we used to hug. I know. And that show we were like, you know, naked or only in body pain and all like living together in this villa and all like you know hugging each other and you know there were loads of like no face masks or anything not even clothes let alone face masks so it is kind of like strange to think back on that it really does feel like another time but also a lovely time and it was a joy to be part of that show and to meet amazing people like Felicity as well yeah. Can you talk to me a little bit about your own journey with Body Image and how you kind of set up your company to to think about Body Image and children? Yeah sure so I'm

38 and I've got two kids so my eldest is 11 my youngest is seven and two daughters two daughters yeah two daughters and I think I've always sort of been on and off the sort of diet bandwagon all my life like right from being in my early 20s really and I never had a bigger body I was always like quite a skinny kid I was thin I was quite athletic I liked doing I was quite. I was quite athletic. I liked doing, I was quite sporty. I liked swimming and I did a lot of dancing, but I always felt like there was always like something just wasn't quite right. And I had a real kind of, you know, like this real internalized anti-fat bias because I grew up in the nineties where people like Kate Moss were kind of held as the pinnacle. And then later on when it became more about sort of the Kim Kardashian curves,

I didn't fit that kind of body either. My nickname in year seven was Little Man because I had short hair and I was flat chested. And people used to make fun of me for looking like a boy. And I used to feel like I just never felt like quite right. I always felt like I wasn't near that kind of beauty ideal that whatever that beauty ideal that was being held up at the time and throughout my 20s I became a mum when I was 26 and I was sort of and then I got married a couple of years after that and there was really just noticing looking back I used to bookmark every kind of big event with a diet or

a quote-unquote healthy lifestyle change. And it was essentially about weight loss or about toning up my body or about some kind of body goals, body transformation. This idea that I had like total power over what I look like. And if I just put in the work, I would reach this kind of goal. And then everything else in my life would sort of fall into place and everything would be fixed. And that kind of goal. And then everything else in my life would sort of fall into place and everything would be fixed. And that kind of carried on and on until my youngest was a baby. And I was in quite a low place, I guess. I think we just moved to a new area. So we just relocated from just outside London to Devon. And I didn't really know anyone. I was sort of making new friendships. And I think

my self-confidence was quite low. I'd recently left like a real buzzy job, like working in radio and working as a journalist. And then suddenly like living in the countryside and not knowing anyone and being at home just as a mum, essentially with my baby and my elder daughter. I think then I sort of felt like, oh, if I can just take control of my body and get like my pre-baby body back, I'll get my pre-baby life back in some way. I don't think I necessarily thought about it in that simple kind of terms. But looking back, that is definitely what was going on subconsciously for me. Do you think it was part of this sort of new mum identity that I suppose I'm going, I'm kind of in the grips of at the moment and I think lots of people who listen are that it's that your life has changed

so much similar to you you know I've moved house and you're kind of just like who am I and I want to be who I used to be and so I guess your body becomes the part of you that you can control almost. 1000% exactly that and I think also I had this idea that if, if I just looked the part, you know, if I if I looked like the Instamums I was following on social media, or, you know, I looked like whatever the perfect idea in my mind was, that everything else would fall into place, I would suddenly be really confident again, I would make loads of new friends and everything would be fixed because that's essentially what diet culture sells you like it uses words like you know inspiring and change your life and it makes you think that if you can just kind of change your body that all of those other things will fall into place and I think there's also something in I was really sleep deprived I wasn't getting any time to myself. I was breastfeeding. So I literally felt like my body wasn't even my own. I feel like you're just like talking about what I'm going through now. Yeah, completely. I was, you know, like always, always being touched or breastfeeding

or a grown up, like my body had been there to grow a baby. And then it was literally keeping a baby alive. And I felt like I just kind of lost a part of myself, I guess. And I embarked on this kind of regime. And I told myself it was about looking after my body and giving myself some space and time and self-care. But actually, it wasn't about any of those things. It was about almost punishing my body, trying to force it back into this mold that it didn't want to go into. It was really punishing. It was not about self-care and it wasn't nurturing myself in any way, really. And there was a moment when my elder daughter, who was about five at the time, she asked me why I was weighing spinach.

And I just didn't have a rational answer for her in that moment. And that was when I became really aware of well actually okay what do I tell her in this moment and do I want my daughters to continue this cycle because I look back and actually some of the things I was doing what were really they were in the name of health but they weren't healthy at all they were actually really like unhealthy behaviors that I wouldn't want my kids to be copying and that was when I started writing and talking about the subject and then I did the show Naked Beach and then I think being on Naked Beach made me really aware of the struggles that other people were going through the systemic nature of this and how actually it is like a real societal issue but also how it was increasingly coming for

my kids you know I started noticing fat shaming on Peppa Pig, for example, and Daddy Pig's body is always the punchline of the joke and how all the Disney princesses all had one type of body. A lot of the books that I was talking about would just talk about healthy eating and really like binary terms and like saying that some, you know, good food and bad food and almost setting up these ideas from a really really young age and that was when I started campaigning on the issue and I was calling for tighter restrictions around the way that these weight loss brands advertised around children specifically around schools because these are often the places where these these clubs happen and community clubs and that led me on to doing workshops for teachers which is what then led on to the creation of the Body Happy organization, because there just weren't any resources in that space for kids.

And I think a lot of adults are battling their own stuff with this whole subject and they're trying to unlearn a lot of their own ideas. But actually, they don't realize that while they're doing that, some of these ideas are being perpetuated among children. doing that some of these ideas are being perpetuated among children and the research backs all of that up we know that kids are feeling bad about their body at a younger and younger age and the cycle is just continuing going round and round and round and I just thought no we need to stop that cycle things need to change and I'm going to be the person to try and be part of the conversation to do something about it. Good for you do you know what it's funny because I grew up well I mean we I'm 34 so I probably grew up very similarly to you with the Kate Moss like nothing tastes as good as skinny feels I remember there's a video that's recently gone viral of Chris Moyles making Victoria Beckham stand on the scales to prove

that she was back to her pre-baby weight of like after a couple of months it's just like the whole thing is grotesque looking back. And it is funny, isn't it? How much is built into you. And like you were saying, even the fact that fat shaming on TV shows, but also I was just thinking when you were talking about how food is marketed,

things like Happy Meals from McDonald's, Angel Delight, all the kind of like junk food, it's kind of marketed as being like happy, positive, angels, like sort of, whereas like food shouldn't be good or bad. Like, cause I kind of gave up on diet culture a long time ago. And also I was quite shocked that when I started eating pasta again, shock horror, I actually didn't really put on weight. You know, you kind of think if I eat this pasta, I was laughing when you were saying that you were weighing spinach because obviously I mean I'm not laughing because it's a horrible part of diet culture but I'm like imagine like oh no I

ate too much spinach today yeah what is that going to do for my body and it's weird isn't it because I really notice it in in my mum and I feel like I'm still on my journey but I really notice it in her when she comments on people being fat or as like a really negative thing or and also like this whole conversation around like obesity people are so quick to be like oh the obesity are costing the NHS money or all of this stuff but actually nobody really care like it's almost something that people say without really thinking of what they're even saying yeah my brain is spinning because also I'm obviously a mum to a boy and I always thought oh I I don't have to worry about what I say around him but actually I do because I'm shaping the way he hears women talk about themselves and I don't want him to grow up thinking that women are only of

value if they are of a certain size or a certain skinniness or basically that they have to shrink themselves to be deemed worthy yeah there's so much in that that like I'm as you're speaking like my brain is going off because there's there's so many I think that this is for me the crux about teaching kids about body image I know my book is called like body happy kids because this me, it's this idea of being body happy is not just being happy and content and friends with your own body and being comfortable and at peace in your own body so that you treat your body with love and respect. It's also about how you treat the bodies of other people around you. and that is regardless of what gender you are and we know that you know

weight stigma for example is really prevalent among kids as young as three years old and we know that like kids yeah that the World Health Organization have got some research that shows that kids in higher weight bodies are 63% more likely to be bullied at school so appearance-based bullying is like the number one cause of bullying. And kids who are in bigger bodies are much more likely to be bullied at school because of their appearance. And the problem is, that kind of bullying is almost given the green light by the way that we talk about bodies and the way that we talk about health and this like really kind of binary idea of good bodies and bad bodies and good food and bad food

and also a real linking with morality there this idea that you're a more moral better responsible citizen if you look a certain way I think that for children they're obviously not thinking in those kind of deep terms because they don't have the the kind of cognitive resources to put all of that together but they do pick up on these messages right from day one. And boys and girls, it doesn't matter what gender your child is, they will pick up on these messages. The other thing with body image is it isn't just about, it's about how body image is the way that we think and feel about our bodies. So it's not just about thinking that fat is bad or thin is good but for boys we are more and more the research is showing that boys are starting to feel dissatisfied with their bodies at a similar

rate that girls are and that could be because boys are getting better at talking about their feelings because we're kind of aware of things like toxic masculinity and we're trying to encourage emotional literacy and in boys particularly but it could also be that actually the beauty ideal and those pressures to look a certain way are increasingly coming at an increasingly aggressive rate for boys as they have traditionally come for girls I think that love island culture isn't it yeah exactly and you think of like if you think just even like the beauty lines most beauty lines now have have ranges for men as well. So there is like a real pressure to kind of tan and have the muscles and have the teeth and have the hair and have the right clothes. And those pressures traditionally were more heaped on women, but they are being heaped on men and boys now as well. heaped on men and boys now as well. So it's, I think as a, whatever your, the gender of your child is, you know, as a mum of a boy, it's super important to be aware of these. But even if your

kid feels great in themselves, it's also for me about how they treat other people. And if they've got these internalised biases and they've got these judgements about other people, I don't want my kids to feel bad about their own bodies. Of course I don't, but I also really, really, really feel strongly that I don't want them to treat other kids badly because of the shape of their bodies or however their bodies look or function and in fact I'd go a step further and say I want my kids to be advocates for those other children, you know, in marginalised bodies, whether they're disabled or they're bigger, I want them to be standing up to the bullies in the playground and actually saying you know actually all bodies are good bodies there's no such thing as bad body you know god I was like I said I want Alf to grow up thinking about like women's bodies as respectful and it actually hadn't even really dawned on me about you're right like body dysmorphia in men is

the highest it's ever been I saw um Dr Alex Alex, ex-Love Islander, kind of come out in defense of his body because he gets so much online abuse because he doesn't have like the stereotypical six-pack chiseled sort of Love Island stereotypical body that we're so used to seeing now on TV. Obviously, it's like the biggest show, well, arguably the biggest show on TV, isn't it? And thinking what that is doing to a generation. And I'm also thinking about the fact that I'd love to know what you think about this. I'm thinking, when did I get sucked into diet culture? Because similarly to you, I was always in a very slim body. And so at what point was it that I started to do all these weird diets because I did in my early 20s and

did I need to diet of course I didn't need to diet I mean does anyone need to diet because actually you set yourself up for failure if you do but I'm thinking like it might have started when I was a teen when I'd eat a lot and female adults teachers or parents or friends of parents would always be like wow you're so lucky to be able to eat that much. When you get to my age, when you get past 25, you won't be able to eat that much anymore. And I remember thinking like, no, I've got a great metabolism. I'm going to, I'll always be able to eat. But that was kind of what planted the seed of like,

you're eating a lot of food and lucky you, as opposed to like me just eating because I'm like intuitively hungry or because that's what you do. And I wonder if anyone ever would comment on boys like, like wow you're so lucky you get to eat all that maybe they do I'm not sure obviously it's not my experience it's so funny the food thing the whole like idea of people commenting on what other people are eating is just as damaging as people commenting on other people's bodies isn't it because it makes you so self-conscious yeah well I really remember thinking when I got to 25, 26, 27,

oh, I wonder if I'm going to start, if I need to start watching what I eat yet. And I think that like subconscious thing in my mind, remembering that my mum used to live off cottage cheese, weird looking back, but at the time it was just what mums ate. Yeah, yeah. And I remember as a kid,

really having a really like positive, happy relationship with food and food was always a real kind of part of like we'd gone to France on holiday and I'd get so excited about the kind of food cake my auntie would make me for my birthday and food is such a central part of celebrations and also like how we come together as communities and how we how we actually also how we process memories any person that you love like there'll often be a food or something that you associate with that person maybe it's like their signature kind of dish or some you know meal that you've had with them. And I think like, we lose sight of that when we boil food down to just being about calories, because it is about so much more than just calories. And it is for children as well. And I think for me, like I can so relate to what you're saying about people commenting on what you're eating. But I remember

almost being shamed for my appetite, you know, when I was a teenager, appetite you know when I was a teenager it was like when I was a kid it was really not by my own parents because they never did that but like by other maybe other family members or like friends of the family would often like really praise oh you've got such a great appetite oh you eat such a range of food oh I can't believe you love you know curry and stuff and then when I became a teenager and like in my early 20s that was almost then suddenly I don't know what age it was but suddenly oh you're past the age of 13 now that's a source of shame oh are you do you really want to eat that do you really want second helping of that oh stop being greedy and I actually remember one of my housemates at university a lad that I

lived with in in who was in my flat in the first year saying oh you know a minute on the lips a lifetime on the hip yeah oh my god yeah and earth like where does it and it's just so normalized and and I would feel embarrassed about going out on dates and eating because I would feel like oh I don't want to like order too much in case they think I'm greedy but then also I'd be hungry and I don't want to order too much in case they think I'm greedy. But then also I'd be hungry. And I don't know, you know, this idea that it's unladylike, I don't know, to have an appetite or something. These girls I used to be friends with at uni, who I'm not friends with anymore, they used to dip cotton wool in orange juice and eat it before a night out so that it would expand in their tummy and stop them being hungry. That's just absolutely balmy isn't it yeah it is and it's not healthy and this is why I kind of why I think we really need to move the conversation when we're talking about health this

idea of what's healthy and what isn't often when people are striving to meet this picture of health because they have this idea that health is a look it will drive them to do really unhealthy things and I did ballet and I the exact same thing new girls that used to eat tissues because oh there's no calories in tissues but what on earth I mean that's eat that's an eating disorder that's disordered eating that's really dangerous and unhealthy but because they wanted to have this kind of athletic body and they were terrified of gaining weight and looking quote unquote unhealthy they used to do these like take part in these practices that were actually so unhealthy and so dangerous yeah this whole kind of idea of food that we can comment on other people's food choices

I think all for me now that that just really shows to me how much the adults the adults who commented on that stuff I can see now how much they were probably struggling with their own stuff yeah and they're putting that on me as a kid and this is still happening now and it's like what I was saying earlier about the cycle being perpetuated continuously over and over again and it is really worrying. Welcome to Paranormal Activity with me Yvette Fielding, a brand new podcast bringing together people's real ghost, extraterrestrial and paranormal stories as well as getting some

inside details from those who study the supernatural. I'll be listening through your paranormal stories every week and try to understand them, as well as chatting about my own encounters with an occasional paranormal investigator too. You can find us wherever you get your podcasts from, including Apple Podcasts, Spotify and Acast. Just search for Paranormal Activity with Yvette Fielding. Obviously, I have a lot of, well, parents in general, but let's say mainly mums who listen to the podcast. A lot of them will be new mums struggling with the identity of feeling like they're in a new body, a different body, a post baby body.

So how would you encourage people, not for their kids, first of all, but for themselves to get out of that sort of diet culture mindset and also to get back positive body image because you see a lot of like body positivity body confidence online but it is quite hard to suddenly be like oh so and so said I should love my stomach so I'm gonna love my stomach when you've had a lifetime of being told that stretch marks and various other things are flawed so what's your advice to them yeah it's so hard and I do I do actually take issue with some of the this like pressure not any one person in particular, but I can totally see how the culture of the pushback is so important that pushback against diet culture and body ideals is really important. But also, remembering that this is a systemic issue. This is a societal issue. You can't as one individual person, just suddenly wake up one morning and be like oh

I love my body today because someone on Instagram told me to but it doesn't work like that because when you think about all the messages around us that are continuously really at odds with us even liking our body or even thinking mutually about our body it's kind of unsurprising that so many people are struggling with this stuff so I think the first my first piece of advice is to just really try and take the pressure off and remove any kind of judgment or blame and just be really neutral either way both about how you feel about your body and about your body in general so if you are not happy in your body that doesn't make you a bad person it doesn't mean that you're failing at anything. It doesn't mean that you failed at body confidence and suddenly your children are going to hate their bodies too.

And everything's going to be awful and the whole cycle is going to repeat it. It doesn't mean that. It just means that you're a normal human being who's grown up in a culture that is constantly telling you that one type of body is good. And that no matter what you do, your body is never going to be quite good enough. And that is a normal human reaction to the messages that you've grown up with and that you've internalized your entire life. It is not your fault. There is nothing wrong with you. So really, then the next step is about trying to examine some of those messages and take a bit of a step back and distance

yourself from those messages. And that's where media literacy is a really useful tool. So just spotting the messages to start off with. And this is the same for kids, actually. So these messages are all around us. They're in the TV shows that we watch. They're in what we see on social media. They're in the books. They're in the the lack of representation the fact that we often only ever see a really narrow range of bodies so we have this idea that all bodies look a certain way and that our bodies are somehow wrong just being aware of those messages and trying to just notice them and just not even not even make a judgment but just notice them that can be a really useful starting point to just feeling neutral about your body and taking some of the power back away from diet culture. And then it might be too much to expect

that suddenly you're going to, once you started doing that, you're going to love every inch of your body, that might be too much. So maybe getting to the point where you just feel neutral about your body. And you know that actually you're more than a body, the things that matter, the things that the people who love you, the things that they love about you are nothing to do with your appearance. And I know it's a really cliched, might sound a bit cheesy, you know, thinking about your best friend, for example, if you think of three things that your best friend might write down three reasons why they like you I'm pretty sure that having a flat tummy or having like super glossy hair or whatever it is are not going to

be the reasons they're going to say I don't know you're a great listener or you're really fun to be around or whatever they are those things have absolutely nothing to do with your appearance and I think really kind of tuning into just knowing that you are more than a body and your body is not the most important or interesting thing about you is a really great place to get to. To then you can start working on then actually becoming friends with your body and actually enjoying and celebrating your body. But I do think it's a process and it doesn't happen overnight. happen overnight and I think the first step is just really taking the pressure off yourself and removing any kind of judgment anyway and just trying to view yourself with a bit of self-compassion we put so much pressure on ourselves there is so much pressure there's too much pressure to look a certain way but then there's also too much pressure to feel

a certain way about our bodies and I think we need to kind of remove that before we can do any of the work of coming home to our body and being content and friends with our body that has to happen first we are it's mad isn't it you're right we are more than a body and no one would I'd love it if I asked my friends why why are you friends with me because you've got such fabulous hair I love your big boobs okay time to get some new friends oh my gosh it's so mad when you think about it isn't it we just live in a crazy world especially like the thing that makes me the most sad is I remember being pregnant and immediately after giving birth thinking I have so much respect for my body I can't believe what my body's just done

this is amazing I'll never be horrible about my body again and then you just get sucked into it and it started straight away people being like so are you gonna are you gonna try and bounce back are you gonna try and lose the baby weight are you gonna like even just asking the question of being like oh do you believe in bouncing back it's like you're even when you're trying to like criticize the bounce back, you're still talking about the bounce back. So the conversation is still around the body, which makes me feel like it's basically saying, are you going to be brave and stand up against the bounce back and refuse to do

the bounce back? Or are you going to be one of those people that do it? And either way, it's like, what if I just, what if I just want to function for now yeah because either way the conversation the focus is still on what your body looks like not on what your body's just done this amazing miraculous like literally a miracle growing and birthing a child and and also what your body is continuing to do because every day you're looking after that child which is an incredible thing and your body is is a source of love and nurturing and safety for your child and I think for me like I'm cross because I feel like I lost I feel like some of that was stolen from me in the post baby the

early baby days I lost that connection with my body because I was so focused on what it looked like that I actually just you know my soft tummy was was so focused on what it looked like that I actually just, you know, my soft tummy was a place that my newborn used to like to lie. In fact, for a period of time, it was the only place she'd let me fall asleep. Like she'd have to lie on me. And it was like my soft tummy. Yeah, it was like my soft tummy and my boobs. Like she used to just like snuggle in like a little animal. And actually, my body was literally giving her comfort.

It was a safe space for her and rather than celebrating that I was like oh these stretch marks oh you know feeling like angry about it and actually that's it makes me angry because that wasn't me that was some that was stolen from me by diet culture and also what i find so interesting is so alice always had really chunky dimply legs essentially cellulite it might not be it might not be called cellulite but it's cellulite and everyone's like oh my god look at his little dimples they're so cute and i was like imagine if we talked about adult cellulite that way like i would feel so much better like a normal about it if people are oh my god i love your cellulite that way like I would feel so much better at like a normal about it if people like oh my god I love your cellulite and actually when I started trying to shun diet culture and

get used to different bodies and love different like realize that actually when I'm on the beach I'm not there judging anyone's body I'm like wow I love that I might be I might be looking at women's appearances thinking wow I love like she looks so confident or I love her hips or I love but I noticed that I actually really love cellulite and I think once you start to change and chop yourself to what you think society wants you to be you lose that kind of sense of uniqueness don't you which is why people sort of ending up looking like the same version of each other like you lose that it's like when you look at a lot of people who've been on TV a long time, looking at them from the beginning of their career

to where they are, like it's quite hard to differentiate a lot of people. And it's so sad and I understand it and I treat it with compassion because let's be honest, like they are victims of constant trolling and judgments on their appearance. Obviously a lot of jobs people get

is based on their appearance. Like I understand it. And it makes me so sad, especially when it's like young girls that are in their 20s, even 30s. Like, we're still young. Do you know what I mean? Yeah. So, yeah, I think we definitely have a long way to go.

Everything you're saying just really resonates. And you made a really important point there that actually people who are in the public eye can constantly on TV, you know, that that's your job. And you are being judged, you are being judged for the way you look. And it's really easy for someone who I'm not on TV all the time, you know, I don't. And when I am on TV, I'm on TV talking about how we shouldn't be judging people for the way they look. So people might judge me for the way they look, but I'm not, I've never earned money as a model. I've never earned money as a TV presenter who has to look a certain way. And so I haven't been judged in that way that

other people have. And I can recognise that actually, that is a real pressure that people have to live up to. This is why I keep saying it's a systemic issue. It's a cultural issue. to live up to. This is why I keep saying it's a systemic issue. It's a cultural issue. It's no one particular person is at fault for this. It's not the cast of Love Island's fault that they look that way or that they're being cast for this TV show. It's the general overall culture that we are just consistently valuing people based on how they look. And making assumptions about their health. That was a really important point you made earlier. And it was what I was trying to make right at the beginning. And I didn't. But that assumption, like when I've been at my thinnest, it's either because I've been ill or I've been living off crisps and Coca-Cola. It's not because I'm healthy,

but yet nobody would ever come up to me and make assumptions about my health. But whereas if you're in a bigger body and you're eating crisps or a burger, people will constantly judge and make assumptions about my health. But whereas if you're in a bigger body, and you're eating crisps or a burger, people will constantly judge and make comments about that person's health. Yeah, absolutely. And I think the chapter in my book about health is the longest chapter. And I think I still had to cut it down a lot. Because essentially, I think this is like the crux of the conversation. The way that we talk about health is, I think, the number one challenge with promoting positive body image in kids and in adults too, actually. I think we've got so, so bogged down in talking about health as a size and this idea that fatness is automatically unhealthy, that we've completely oversimplified what health is. And health is a massively, massively complex thing.

And you cannot tell how healthy someone is just by looking at them. You cannot. You might be able to say, OK, there is a difference between correlation and causation. okay, there is a difference between correlation and causation. And there is a constant assumption that certain diseases are caused by being in a bigger body, but actually there's a correlation. And what a lot of the studies don't show, and they can't show, is that actually weight stigma, which is being discriminated against because of the size of your body, and weight which is essentially gaining and losing weight going on and off the diet bandwagon are independently really really bad for health and could be attributed as as at least part of the cause of some of these health outcomes and so if we take weight off the table and we look at actually what do we want people to do what do we know are like good

healthy behaviors so there are some things that we can do that are within our power to take control of our health so sure exercising regularly and actually working on your relationship with exercise so that you enjoy moving your body and you see it as a form of self-care rather than something that you have to do, that's a really great step. Having a nutrient-dense diet, so making sure that you're eating vegetables at some point in your day, but not vilifying other types of food, just trying to include a range of different types of food in what you're eating, okay, but also sleep and also screen time and also making sure that we're getting good positive social connections with other people because these are all really important factors of health behaviors as well but then also even if we're doing all of those things we do have to recognize

there are some unfortunately or fortunately however you want to look at it there are some parts of our health that are actually totally beyond our control, like our genetics, the social determinants of health, so where we live, our income, our access to some of these health-promoting behaviours. Not everyone can afford to eat organic kale or go to the gym every day. Some people live in circumstances that mean that they are under intense pressure and stress, and that stress and pressure, we know, has a physical impact on your body, and is bad for health. So it's this idea that actually, you can just tell how healthy someone is by looking at them, and that health is only about what we eat, and what exercise we do. And that everyone, if everyone just kind of got themselves together and just did those things,

we'd all have the same shaped body. Well,'t because body diversity is a thing and human body is not we're not built as a species to all look the same we're not we've talked a lot about diet culture and you know things that we can do as adults as mums as parents how can we promote positive body image in our kids and also at what age do we start because I know that you you know you mentioned that kids as young as three start to have body hang-ups Alf's going to be one which is just a crazy thing to say so what what can we do for our kids? So I think a lot of the stuff that we've just talked about is actually relevant you can put that through another lens and looking at like the conversations that we're just talked about is actually relevant, you can put that through another lens and looking

at like the conversations that we're having with our children. So first of all, like the way that we talk about health, I think is really important. So allowing children to see that health is a holistic thing and taking a holistic view of health. So it isn't just about if we're talking about being healthy, quote unquote, being healthy, it isn't just about the we're talking about being healthy, quote unquote, being healthy. It isn't just about the food that we're eating or moving our body in a certain way. It's also just about treating our body with respect and kindness, making sure that we get enough rest, making sure we get enough sleep. about your own body or health in a certain way really kind of examining that and taking a look at that because children are listening to these this all the time and children are also picking up these messages at school in some of their lessons at school so I think it's really important

to really examine the way we talk about health and really thinking about it in a holistic way and then just like basic things there's so much that I could say on this subject obviously I wrote a book about it but essentially like basic stuff you know not commenting on other people's bodies and not commenting on children's bodies because we just do it it's so normalized we do it all the time these kind of conversations are as common as as the weather but we don't have to engage in them we don't have to go from a conversation about how oh isn't it rainy today to then a conversation with Sharon up the road about what diet she's on. Have you seen what Meghan Markle wore? Yeah I don't think she should have worn that so soon after giving birth we do it yeah exactly of course we do but we don't have to so just kind of making a conscious

decision to not engage with that that kind of chat whether it's setting a really clear boundary and saying oh can we talk about something else or whether it's just about if you're able to like walking away or just kind of prepping if you've got like family members for example that you know that are constantly body shaming people or talking about people's body or talking about what people are eating maybe if you feel able to having a conversation with them before they're in front of your child or at least saying can we with them before they're in front of your child or at least saying can we just not talk about this in front of the kids because I don't want them to hear these kind of conversations what about in terms of Peppa Pig because you mentioned

that earlier and that's obviously a big one I love it but I know lots of kids do so you can't obviously stop a child no watching programs that they like or no it's like like you said it's so prevalent in culture in film and tv so do you address it yeah so media literacy and i mentioned this before for adults but actually media literacy is a really really useful and important tool when we're talking with kids about bodies and promoting positive body image. So allowing children to see when anti-fat bias happens or when bodies are the punchline of the joke. So, for example, I was watching in the first lockdown. It was like March 2020 or something. We got the Disney channel when it came out.

We got that when the kids were off school and we're like, right, we're going to watch loads of Disney. And I was really shocked when I was watching The Little Mermaid with my daughter who was five at the time and I was saying oh my gosh I don't remember I hadn't seen it in so long and actually Little Mermaid is a really great film and Ursula is an awesome baddie but just having a conversation with my daughter who was five at the time about why do you think that they've put Ursula in a bigger body why does she have a fat body why have they why why is that important for her character she was saying well because she's meant to be really like bossy and really greedy and and so that's why they've put her in a fat body I was like well is that

automatically you know someone if someone is bossy and greedy does that automatically mean that they have a fat body she was like well no and just having that conversation with her making her able to to see that how that was happening and now she actually calls stuff out to me so she will say that's bad mummy that that's fat bobit like they've just they've just said that and you know she she recognizes it yeah so I think like that that's really important and I think actually again like actually neutralizing the word fat and actually neutrality as a whole so neutralizing the way we talk about food so food is neither good or bad food is food and just calling food what it is so a chocolate biscuit is a chocolate biscuit it's not a naughty chocolate biscuit or a treat. It's just a chocolate biscuit. And an apple is just an apple.

And neutralizing the way that we talk about exercise, because all movement is valid. And actually, kids will like all different types of movement. Not all kids like organized sport, and that's OK. And all movement is totally valid. And then neutralizing the way that we talk about bodies. So fat, the word fat has so often been vilified and linked to negative characteristics and personality traits. And that that is weight bias and anti-fat bias and weight stigma. That's all built on this idea that fat is bad but actually fat is neither good nor bad it is just a neutral word but what we don't do is we don't comment on other people's bodies so okay you might notice okay that person has a fat body or that person has a thin body but that

doesn't mean that you then go up and tell them they've got a fat body or a thin body you just notice it in your head and move on with your day like it doesn't mean anything it doesn't it doesn't have any greater signifier about anything else about them you know we don't even need to think about it I guess it's that isn't it it's pulling yourself up because we are especially like you said in the culture we grew up in we're going to be naturally judgmental or notice appearances and it's almost like well I personally like think to myself yeah and so what or I notice that and I notice what that means about me that I'm judging that because it's not the other person is it it's like your own judgments and then I like forgive myself for

the thought and I also I have this really silly thing I do where I um every time I talk say something like positive and lovely about people I kind of like go like plus one plus two and every time I say something negative like I get involved in gossip because sometimes it's really easy to get involved in a gossip you might be having a shit day and you might be jealous of someone and you know then I like negative it out and I always try and end on a more positive number than like and it's silly and it's pathetic and it probably makes me sound like a massive bitch but I was like I just found like I just got into like a cycle with a particular friend of just like gossiping and it was about people I didn't know you know it wasn't like I was sat there like bitching about like people I

love but sometimes I mean it's all just as bad isn't it and I was like what do I gain from this and it's a habit and it's a really annoying habit because it makes me feel shit about myself after. Yeah. But you know what? Actually, I look back at like my times in my life when I've been the most kind of bitchy and gossipy and actually thought in my head like nasty things about other people with the times in my life when I was most unhappy in myself. unhappy in myself and I think like when I was with that that time when I was like weighing the spinach and getting up at like 5am to do a HIIT workout after having like no sleep the night before actually I would like go on Instagram and I would almost like hate hate follow people like I love to like hate follow people and then like oh I hate that person they look like that almost like stoking the fire because I was unhappy in myself and I was unhappy in my my own body and my life. And and it said more about me, really, than it than it said about any of any of the people who were at the end of my internalized.

I mean, luckily, I never actually voiced those things out loud to the people. But I think that that is what happens with trolling. things out loud to the people but that but I think that that is what happens with trolling like when if I ever get like nasty comments from people online I just think well it says more about your day and what you're going through at this moment than it says anything about me must be having a really bad day or a bad time or whatever I try and look at it with that kind of compassion because I don't know that makes me that that makes me feel better and I think it's true. God I feel like I could talk to you for ages but I hope that I hope to everyone listening you've got as much from this conversation as me like even media literacy I feel like I'm going to

start finding myself noticing things not probably not just on tv but out and about and everything and I you've definitely given me a lot of food for thought and I'm just so pleased that you came on thank you so much for having me I hope I haven't waffled too much no I've loved no I've absolutely loved it I feel like you've been like I definitely want to like buy and read your book like I feel like you we just kind of hit what what's the phrase hit the iceberg that is yeah scratch scratch the surface tip of the iceberg that is the one tired mom over here but before I do let you go every week I read out a message that I've got from one of my lovely listeners and this one is from it's a weird username limis nina she left us a review on apple podcast so thank you for that and she said I actually got

goosebumps from listening to this podcast I'm not actually sure which Apple podcast. So thank you for that. And she said, I actually got goosebumps from listening to this podcast. I'm not actually sure which podcast it was, but thank you. Lots of real chat about motherhood and it's so relatable. Thank you for sharing your journey and having the bravery to do so. I'd love to hear more about friendships and how to navigate the change after having a baby. I feel like this is a really good topic

to have a whole other conversation around it. But what I'm going to take from this and I think she's called Nina let's say so what I will take from this is maybe like the change of when you've a lot of your friendship group don't have babies or aren't mums or and then you go to have a baby because that's what I found really challenging because I was I mean I was anti-baby pretty much until I had one so to suddenly then have a baby and have friends that maybe didn't understand for example I have a friend that's always like how's Alf and like I can tell that she does not care about the answer I could say like

yeah he's dead she'd be like oh great anyway what else is new she always says the same thing so now I'm just like oh yeah he's really good because I used to like give her a really big response. Like, oh yeah, oh my God, he started doing this. We started doing that. She doesn't care. And then she'll say, what else is new? And then panic sets in. Cause I'm like, that's it. That's all I've got. There's nothing else new, but I've just learned to realize that number one, like I didn't understand before I had a baby. I was probably a really shit friend to my friends that did have babies. I know I was.

And so I don't resent her for it. And I know that there'll be times. I think friendships, it's like ebbs and flows, aren't they? Like sometimes you'll be closer with other friends than others just because you're going through similar things, whether it's children or not. And that's okay. Like you don't have to have friends that are the best friends in every single aspect of your life. I was the first one amongst all my friends to have a baby. And definitely, I think that it doesn't mean that

you have to lose those friends or leave them behind. Because actually, over the years, a lot of them have become parents themselves although one of my best friends has made the decision not not to have kids and I think that you you can have different I think this idea that like all your friendships or even like your relationship like with your partner if you're in a couple like that they have to like fulfill everything like we put too much pressure on our friendships and we put too much pressure on our partnerships and actually you can have different friends for different things. And if you've got a friend that you love just like hanging out with, going for a walk with,

or you've got a friend who's like your really fun friend who you like going out, I don't know, drinking with or something. They have a place in your life and their places in your life will change as your life develops and goes on. And the thing about the baby days is it's so all consuming, isn't it? All you can think about is like what they're eating or how much they're sleeping but that isn't always going to be the way as as the child gets older like life will develop and change again and you might find the friends who aren't around as much at this period of your life if you've just had a baby they might come back into your life more later or they might not and that's okay too because we can't stay friends with every single person that they might not and that's okay too because we can't stay

friends with every single person that we ever meet because that's just unrealistic and who has time especially if you've got kids that's such a good eloquent answer I would love to add as well my friend Jackie she had kids before me she's got two boys and when I had Alpha I was like oh my god you must have thought I was such a terrible friend I never asked about the boys and I think I even used to say to her like oh it's so nice that you don't talk about them like not like other mums that just talk about their kids and now I'm like oh my god cringe from the inside like I'm so sorry and she was like no but Ashley I loved that about you because at a time where my whole world felt that it was all about the children you were like my friend that I got to just not talk about them.

And I loved it. And so obviously like now our friendships evolve because it'd be weird if we didn't talk about them. Because like, you know, we go through similar things or I go to her for advice. And to know that it's going to get better on the really low days. She'd be like, yeah, sometimes motherhood is shit. That's fine. It doesn't make you a bad person. But it was nice to hear because I felt so guilty it was just nice to hear that she was like

no you were my friend that I didn't have to talk about my kids with and that was great that's so true it's nice sometimes to just remember who you are without motherhood away from having kids and sometimes those friends who are like your your fun friends or the ones that don't have kids are the ones that can be so useful in reminding you about that because we are all more than we're all more than our body and we're all more than being a mum or a partner or whatever like we're multi-dimensional people oh that is so nice what a nice way to end I feel like that is a great little quote or saying there's got to be an insta meme in that you know like a picture just in the background we are more than our bodies and we are more than being just mums something like that we'll work on it yeah molly thank you so much you've been such a great guest and um just love chatting to you i feel like it could have been a two-hour podcast today yeah thank you so much for having me i've

loved this chat too oh thank you and thanks everyone for listening to ashley james first time mum the parenting podcast if you loved the episode don't forget to hit the subscribe or follow button if you don't already then you'll never miss another one if you're listening on apple podcasts leave a review like nina did a five-star rating helps others to find us as well and if you think that you know a mom that might i don't know be suffering with her own body image or you know i know just someone that you think would enjoy the episode tell them about it share the love help us reach more people and i'll be back next week with another episode, same time, same place. Own each step with Peloton.

From their pop runs to walk and talks, you define what it means to be a runner. Whatever your level, embrace it. Journey starts when you say so. If you've got five minutes or 50, Peloton Tread has workouts you can work in. Or bring your classes with you for outdoor runs, walks, and hikes, led by expert instructors on the Peloton app. Call yourself a runner. Peloton All Access Membership Separate.

Learn more at onepeloton.ca slash running.