Mum's The Word! The Parenting Podcast - My Child Says they are Trans - What do I do? With Jake Graf

Episode Date: September 10, 2023

It can be hard to know how to help or react when your child expresses they are part of the LGBTQ+ community and want to transition, we want to ensure that our children can be who they want to be, but this can come with a lot of judgement from outsiders. Jake Graf joins us this week to tell us about his own transgender journey and how he froze his eggs and underwent a process of surrogacy to have his two children. Find Jake at @jake_graf5 Get in touch with us at [e-mail] or on whatsapp on 07599927537,---A Create Podcast Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

hello and welcome back to mum's the word the parenting podcast i'm george jones and i'm your host for this week so this week we had a first cooper my little boy lost his very first tooth and um it was not what i remember as a child We used to tie our teeth to a piece of string and then shut a door with the string attached and it was all good fun. But apparently in this modern world, losing teeth, losing teeth is quite traumatic. So it's been, let's just say a week from hell

in our household. He didn't want to go anywhere, see anyone, eat anything or do anything so um other than watch watch tv and play video games so i am very very thankful that this tooth has now left the building and um cooper's two pound richer this week we have special guest jake graff joining us he is an award-winning director writer writer and actor. You might know him from his role in The Danish Girl and for his viral hit Headspace. He's a vocal and visible member of the transgender community and has recently had second child Teddy via surrogate. Teddy is now one and his daughter Millie is three.

Surrogacy is a topic that touches the lives of countless individuals and families around the globe It's a remarkable and complex process that involves a surrogate who carries a baby for a couple Who are unable to conceive or carry a child themselves Now let's welcome Jake to the show and find out how he's coping from going from one to two Hi Jake, lovely to have you on the show. How are you doing? I'm good, Georgia. Just childcare issues at the moment are kind of keeping me awake at night, but nothing that I'm sure won't be sorted eventually. So no, otherwise good. And we're having an Indian summer. So all very happy. We are. I know I'm quite buzzing about that.

Everyone's saying, oh yeah, we're really happy that autumn's come. And I'm like, no, I'm not ready. I think I've only just unpacked my summer clothes. I know, it's those people that say, I really like it when it rains. And I think, go away. Just go away. Absolutely not. No, thank you. Anyway, let's talk a bit about you and your journey. Now, you have a book out. Just tell us quickly what your book's called and just a general synopsis of the book. I have read it. Have you? Genuinely? Yes. Honestly, genuinely, genuinely, I have read it.

That's commitment. And there was tears. Wow. That's very touching. Thank you. I mean, that really means a lot that you've read it. It's so weird when people have read it because, you know, obviously it's such a personal thing to us. It's called Becoming Us. And it's the story of Hannah and I from when we were very little people growing up, knowing in my case that I was trans very early on, not even knowing what the word transgender meant, but just knowing that I was, to me, a boy in a girl's body and struggling with that for years in a time when there was no talk of being trans, when I didn't see anyone else like me out there. When unfortunately, we were living under Margaret Thatcher's lovely Section 28, which meant that LGBT identities could not be discussed in school. So, you know, there was no external influence, no kind of help, no resources, no internet to go to. So I just kind of grew up feeling very different and feeling very wrong. And like there was something very wrong with me.

And that obviously during my formative years impacted quite badly on the rest of my life. My teens were pretty bad. My 20s were even worse. And it was only actually when I met another trans man at 25 that I saw a future for myself and saw hope and transitioned. And Hannah's story is slightly different because she always knew there was something different, but didn't quite know what it was. Again, there was no influence. There was no point of reference for her. So she just felt like that she didn't quite feel comfortable in her skin, but in the way that Hannah does, she kind of soldiered, quite literally soldiered on,

But in the way that Hannah does, she kind of soldiered, quite literally soldiered on, joined the army and joined the army, became a captain. And it wasn't until she actually went off and did a tour of Afghanistan and it was all trying to ignore it and trying to live as a man, the man that everyone told her she was. She was just unable to carry on and felt that she was living half a life. And after her tour of Afghanistan, came back and came out as trans to her leadership and to a brigadier who, when she told him she was trans, actually turned around and said, well, you know, do you know I'm gay? And this guy was a real beacon of hope for her and support. And he was one of the army's LGBT reps and really helped her kind of come out on her journey and find acceptance and support. And Hannah had a really, really positive reaction from the military when she came out.

Yeah. That was really nice to read. I actually, when I was reading it, I felt pretty stupid, actually, because as a woman that was born in the right body, I was reading it thinking, wow, I have been so ignorant to issues that you guys would have faced growing up. I didn't know it was illegal to talk about it in school, but of course, because it wasn't an issue for me that I wasn't aware, which is why I think your book was so incredible to read because it made me, well, a heck of a lot more aware of the struggles that you guys have faced and actually that you still face i saw um a it was

like an advert that one of you guys posted i don't know if it was you or hannah and it was about the struggles that trans people still have now um in the modern world like going to you know a men's bathroom and they're not being cubicles free or i think I think your one was in a gynecologist and being stared at because, you know, obviously you're a man and the women are confused as to why you're in there. And it's just ignorance. It's people not being aware, isn't it? Yeah, I mean, of course, if things don't directly affect you,

then there's, you know, we've all got our own stuff to deal with without worrying about everyone else's issues on top of it. You know, you give yourself anxiety, but it is tough. And, you know, just like being born gay, being born any sort of different way, any way that where you're kind of othered by society, of course, is difficult. And, you know, there are still a lot of people that don't like gay kids and don't think gay kids should be allowed to live happily happy lives and you know our own government at the moment is trying to really restrict the teaching about lgbt and alternative families in schools um and obviously it's another tory government that does seem to feel that we should kind of you know really limit what we're learning about other identities and other people um you know rishi Sunak feels very strongly that trans women are not women and that trans kids don't really exist and should not be allowed to live happily as themselves. And that, you know,

if they're transitioning schools, they should be monitored and grasped up to their parents and all sorts of things. So, you know, it's, you know, I obviously think about that, how bad it was in the 80s when I was growing up, but unfortunately we're still in a very, very scary time when there are a lot of people that don't like trans people just because they don't get us and that don't like gay people just because they don't get them. And it's, you know, in 2023, I think we were probably all hoping for better by now. Yeah, there's so much work that still needs to be done. There's so much work that still needs to be done. Now, you and Hannah kind of had different views. Well, not views, just different thought processes in the fact that you knew you wanted to be a father when you didn't you.

But Hannah, she kind of didn't. It just wasn't really on her radar from what I've gathered from the book when you were both single. And you went as far as to harvest your eggs, which is incredible. I mean, the fact that even though you were going through so much mentally and having to deal with, you know, you had deaths going on and obviously you knowing you were in the wrong body and having to deal with all of that, that you then were like, do you know what? I want to be a father one day. I want to harvest my eggs. I want this little human to have some of my DNA. And so how was that? What was the process? How did it happen? I mean, it was, you know, it was tough. I had always, when I was a kid and I was 15, I would pick up my little, my friends, little brothers and sisters from school and take them home and do homework and stuff. And for years I worked as a

nanny and then post-transition as a manny. And I've always enjoyed the company of kids and they're fun and they're easy. And it's just a lot simpler than adults. A lot of the time, as you all know, there's just the real joy to a kid. Yeah, there's no judgment. No judgment is there for kids. Kids are born without judgment. You know, unfortunately it's the big bad adults that teach them that and, and hate and all that. Um, and so, you know, I'd done that all my life and had seen friends start to become parents and then saw my sister becoming a parent, not once, but three times. And I think for years, because when I, when I was struggling with my identity, I fell into alcoholism and I fell into drug abuse and all sorts of really, really detrimental things

that instantly, as soon as I knew I was transitioning, stopped because I had no need for them anymore. But I think I had all my life believed that I wasn't worthy of being a dad, that it was impossible. I thought, who on earth is going to want to have a kid with me? And I kind of, six years into my transition, when I was finally feeling like the man I'd always known myself to be and life was good and I was making films and having some success and my mother and I were getting on again after years of not speaking. And I just thought, you know, why shouldn't I at least give myself that tiny little chance that one day I might be a dad and have my dream. And so I did, you know, I went to the London Women's Clinic with my mum who has supported me throughout. And, you know, we walked in and, you know, my mum's always been quite

glamorous. And I think from the looks that we got as we walked through the door, a lot of people thought my mum was probably there for fertility treatment. I was her toy boy. So that was awkward because there was a lot of whispering in that waiting room. But, you know, it wasn't a fun thing as any person who will tell you has had to have any kind of, you know, sperm or I suppose it's easier if you're donating sperm. But, you know, having eggs harvested,

having that sort of process, you know, it makes you feel sort of inferior. It makes you feel, particularly in my case, emasculated. It was quite a tricky thing to come off testosterone for six months so that that could all clear out of my system. Oh, so you had to stop taking the male hormones so that you could have the eggs.

So everything could start again, obviously. Right, okay. It wasn't nice, but I think also by then I was so confident in who I was. A lot of my friends were very concerned that I was going to start having suicidal thoughts, which, you know, of course I didn't because by then I knew what the end goal was. I knew this was going to be six months off testosterone, have the eggs harvested, hope that they were viable, which luckily they were. And, and then I knew that it would be, you know, back on testosterone, but with something in the bank, quite literally, you know, the cryobank. And, and I did, you know,

thing in the bank, quite literally, you know, the cryobank. And I did, you know, I did two rounds, managed to get about 19 eggs. All of them were fertilized because they said to me, look, you know, you're single now. So there's no, you know, there's no kind of other influence, but you know, if you have them fertilized, I think the chance of them becoming a viable pregnancy goes from about 20% to about 50. So for me, it was just a no brainer. So I went through a big book, chose a donor, and that was it. We got five, I ended up with five healthy embryos on ice. And that was that. And I sort of, they were kind of locked away until about two years later when I met Hannah. And there we go. And there you go. So obviously you then met Hannah and you got married.

And I bet back when you were like, you know, this young little girl at that point, stuck in that body, I bet that idea of being married and having a relationship was so, so unachievable for you. So to then get that, that must have just been like your, your life made. And then obviously you then have children. So, I mean, I bet you from being that, that little person to now, you must be incredibly proud of yourself that you, you're still here, that you stuck, you know, you stuck at living because I bet there was points where you probably didn't want to did

you yeah no there was certainly times I mean I'm I'm in a weird way quite an optimistic person and I guess I just it was sort of you know I drank myself into numbness effectively and you know it really was that the fact that like I stopped pretty much overnight um once I began my transition I think was kind of testament to the fact that I was doing it purely because it was a way to kind of survive um and you know it did it got me through not that I would ever advocate for drinking alcohol abuse uh for drinking drug abuse but it it you know it was kind of self-medication I guess yeah got me through till I was 25 and you know as I say when I'm when I met another trans man for the first time in my life in New

York it was honestly like a veil had been lifted and like I saw the potential I saw a future you know I'd never seen anyone like me and you know there's the there's the kind of old mantra of you can't be you if you can't see you and I'd never seen a trans man before you know I'd seen trans women once or twice on TV you know never, never nicely represented, but, you know, they were out there. But trans men are just almost invisible. And I met this guy in New York who was like this happy, positive, successful, beautiful man. And he just said, you know, you can do this. And, you know, he saw me through a lot of it and was still friendly now, 20 years later.

And honestly, I owe a lot of my life to him. I remember reading that bit in your book. And yeah, you said something like, you'd said,'s gonna be it's gonna be okay and you were like yeah it is and just meeting that person that's gone through the same struggles as you have and them telling you listen it's gonna be okay you can do this and that bit what that was a bit where I I had a good old sob on the river whilst I was reading the book. People must have been like, what on earth is going on with this girl? So the next step, once you'd met Hannah and you got married and you decided you wanted children,

and obviously you've got your fertilized eggs, was to find a surrogate, which I did not realize was as tricky as it is in England. Because when I was reading your book, it was super interesting. I did not know that for the first, I can't remember how many weeks she said it was. Six weeks. Six weeks. The birth mother, the surrogate, not the mother, the surrogate is technically the mother and has full control over that child. So for those first six weeks, you guys could have

changed your mind, but also she could have changed her mind, which I had no idea. Yeah. I mean, we found an amazing surrogate. Yes. You know, it's a really complicated procedure over here because you're not allowed to pay a surrogate. It's got to be all kind of an altruistic exchange. You're allowed to cover her expenses, but you're not allowed to actually pay for that. Whereas in America, obviously, it's very much a business transaction. You go in with someone and you're signing contracts and it's all legal and you're paying her usually over $100,000 for that privilege, which of course it is a massive privilege for a woman to help you in that way. But for us, Laura came to us and she was this Northern Irish pediatric nurse who had two of her own kids, had seen our story, seen us on Lorraine

in the morning and just said, you know, I would love to help you. I've always wanted to be a surrogate. She'd considered it years ago for a family member who was struggling with fertility and then they had not done it and had always wondered and when she actually separated from her husband it was the first thing she wanted to do and so she'd seen us and we met and we clicked and she was very no-nonsense and very down to earth and we kind of aligned on all the things like you know what would happen if we died when the baby was you know in the womb what would happen if there was something wrong with the with the fetus in the room what was you know what was her sort of expectations moving forward in terms of contact

and how often we'd see the baby, you know, she'd see the baby and so on. And we, because we aligned kind of across the board, it just felt that Laura was the one to go with. And she was so clear the whole way. I mean, we never, I don't think ever thought for a second, she'd want to keep the baby. we never i don't think ever thought for a second she'd want to keep the baby she said this is your baby i don't want any more kids i love being pregnant but i absolutely do not want the end result so yeah she you know she she had the whole way through she said i'm loving it i love feeling something growing inside me but my family is complete now and i know how desperately you guys want this baby and so she did it it was it went very smoothly by the last month when unfortunately the pandemic hit oh I couldn't believe that when I when I read

that in the book I was literally just like wow just to add to everything oh like it took a lot to get to this point let's just throw Covid into the mix shall we but even that brought us closer because we had to it was you know we had all these plans that we were going to go a bit early to northern ireland to be there for the birth take her out for lunches and teas and dinners and spend loads of time there of course we were absolutely unable to do all that because we were all in isolation and pretty terrified it was the first month when we all you know there was real fear and we sat in an airbnb about 20 minutes down the road from her unable to go and see her

it was that time when everyone was kind of wiping their shopping with antibacterial wipes we were all so terrified and we'd been told that if we caught COVID we wouldn't be able to take the baby and I think there was nothing more terrifying than the thought that we wouldn't be able to look after our baby in the first few days of her life so So we were, I mean, the anxiety was through the roof. I can imagine. Lots of video calls with Laura to check she was okay, which she was. And we were unable to be in the room when Millie was being born. But I think honestly, we didn't regret that. We weren't in the room for the second, because there is a second. But it was, you know, it was wonderful. And it was incredible when Laura was wheeled in and it was about five in the morning and our little bundle, she handed Millie over to us and there was this tiny little baby, you know, and we all cried, of course.

just testament to how amazing this woman was. She'd had Millie delivered by C-section. And as she was leaving the next day, she actually said to the midwife, I have loved this. I'll probably see you in 18 months because I'm definitely going to be doing this again. And she did. She called us four weeks later. She said, I don't want to put any pressure on you. I'm going to go again as soon as I'm healed. Obviously, you've got my first refusal. Let me know. And I mean, I literally, I couldn't get it out quickly enough. Yes, let's do it. And a year later, we, you know, we, we had a, an ectopic pregnancy in the middle, unfortunately, but then a few months later, Laura said, right, I'm ready. And we went again and we got our little Teddy. So we now have two beautiful little girls and we speak to Laura every couple of weeks and it's, we are incredibly lucky.

And we speak to Laura every couple of weeks and it's, we are incredibly lucky. Oh, and will you tell the girls that Laura was their surrogate and carried them? Or is that something that you don't want to share? No, absolutely. I mean, there's a documentary about it on Channel 4. It would be really weird. That would be hard to keep that from them. And there's a book. I mean, there's everything.

They can see it, can't they? Of course. Honestly. Stupid question. But it's so, we are so proud of the love that brought those two girls into the world. And, you know, they've met, well, Millie's met Auntie Laura and several times. And, you know, we've sort of said, this is where you grew. You grew in Auntie Laura's tummy. And, you know, of course, she's only three now she wouldn't grasp it and I think for her it's different as well because obviously you know there was no bump in Hannah's tummy she doesn't really get the whole how babies come into the world but of course in the next couple of years when she does and when they're starting to sort of you know talk about it and you know she asks about her friends when there's a baby in the tummy of course we'll explain to her you know

we're not ashamed we're very proud of what laura did for us and what we did to bring them into the world and you know we absolutely want them to know that this amazing woman is the reason that they're that they're here hi all it's tv's gail porter here i am so excited to tell you that i am joining the paranormal activity family and will be hosting a number of live podcast recordings across the UK. The first is on the 5th of October at London's haunted Richmond Theatre. Expect terrifying tales, audience interaction and hopefully a spirit or two. If you want to join me and share your own paranormal experiences,

get tickets at www.paranormalpod.co.uk. And how was it going from one to two quite quickly? I don't think we were ready for it. I mean, you know, how often you, I mean, in what way are you ever ready? But I think, you know, we, with Millie, you know, she was a lockdown baby, but once we got out of the pandemic, it was, you know, we got her to the point where age two,

two and a half, we'd go out for dinners, we'd go out for lunches, we'd go out for things, you know, it was, she was napping well, she was sleeping well, it was all very, you know, little group of three. And then number two arrives and all of a sudden you sort of forget you are right set back to the beginning where there's naps three times a day and they're screaming all night they need to be fed you know 11 and 3 and 5 and and it just threw everything up in the air again but i suppose the good thing was at this time obviously we weren't locked down we could go and see family and friends we could get help we could get babysitters we could get all sorts that the first time obviously we were absolutely unable to do so you know now that we've come out of all of that and that the girls play together and in the morning teddy kind of toddles into wait milly up

and the utter love between those girls you know when they see each other in the room like they're both their faces light up and they sort of you know run normally smack each other over but they are just the the connection that those kids have and i sincerely hope that they are always as they are now which is just pure love which they won't be but you know i'm hoping i'm hoping that like there'll be points where they have a little fight i've got a sister so and we're very we're we're only 15 months apart me and my sister and um we are super super close now so good i've got hope i've got hope sister. So, and we're very, we're, we're only 15 months apart, me and my sister. And, um, we are super, super close now. So I've got hope, got hope for your girls. Good. And they look so alike as well. You know, they've both got my dark eyes, my dark hair, and they are, it's just so weird as well. As you all know, seeing yourself in a little person,

it's just weird when I catch a smile on one of them and I'll see little me and it's it's it's incredible you know I honestly just feel so so lucky like I will never stop staring at them and marveling at how incredibly lucky we are oh I know it is an absolute blessing I mean you like oh just it's just special isn't it it's so funny because when you said about them uh looking you know looking like you can see a look of you, there's nothing worse. So I remember when I first had Cooper, when somebody comes over to you and goes, oh, don't they look just like their dad?

And I was like, I have just heaved and shoved this child out. How dare you? Even if he looks nothing like me, you tell me he's got my eyes. I think he does look quite like you, doesn't he? Yeah, I think he does. I think he's got a look of my mum so and i look like my mum yeah and that's nice yeah um now we've got a question from um a member of the public but just to lead into it because there was quite a lot about um how you and your dad and you and your mum, it was a bit fractious at times because you didn't quite know how to speak to them

and they also did not know how to speak to you about everything that was going on. Which, I mean, it's a learning curve, I guess, for everybody. And now, obviously, sadly, your dad passed away, didn't he? And what you spoke about in the book was one of your regrets that you and him didn't have that chat about it all um so so going on to the question from um uh Jules uh she has said hiya I really need some advice and support here this is all new to me I'm really confused what to do my 10 10-year-old daughter has just come out as trans this morning and wants me to use he, their pronouns.

I'm just finding this so hard. They want to start using a binder, cut their hair, and dress more masculine, which I know you can absolutely relate to there. I feel like she needs to wait until she's at least 16. She's so young, and decisions at this age can change so easily. I feel like every week she's into something new. I don't want to stop them from being who they are, but I also don't want her to rush into things where she might change her mind

at a later date. I'm really stuck here. So any support would be wonderful. Jules. I know obviously it's scary. You know, honestly, if our girls came out and said that they were gay or trans,

it would be worrying for us because I know it's a really hard life. It certainly can be. It doesn't always have to be. It certainly can be. I know it's scary as a parent to know that you're – or feel that your child is potentially going to be othered by society. But I think – and, of course, you know, kids are into different things all the time.

I think it's important first to ascertain one fact no firstly i would say acknowledge what they're saying to you because if your child has felt safe enough to come to you and trust you with this then obviously they have a lot of faith and confidence in you and feel real safety in you a lot of kids wouldn't feel the the safety and the kind of confidence to do that for fear that you're rejected or judged or receive a bad um reaction from their parent so i think firstly you know there there's all there's almost something you know pride that you should take that your child feels comfortable doing that with you but i think also you know acknowledge it don't dismiss it which it doesn't sound like you have um of course kids are into lots of different things and i think it's maybe something you could

ask them how long they felt this way because obviously you know it's to you this may seem very sudden but to them this could have been going on since they were three or four which it was with me and they might have squashed it down for six or seven years by now and to finally have plucked up the courage to come and tell you to them might feel like come on i've gone through all this i know i've questioned myself but you know kids are very bright these days and, you know, getting a lot of information from a lot of different places. So I would say if they're asking you to use different pronouns and if over the course of the next couple of weeks or even a couple of months, they are sticking true to that, I would ask yourself, is it going to harm me to use different

pronouns for my child or even a different name for your child? And I think realistically, if it makes your child so much happier, having that acknowledgement, having that respect and hearing from you that you acknowledge what they're saying and that you respect that identity, which may very well be their identity going on into adulthood, then I think I don't really see the harm in you doing that. And whether it's just letting them, which is, it's called a societal transition. So it's just letting them have a different name and letting them use different pronouns. badly does that affect me because on the flip side if you're blocking them from doing those things that will very very deeply and very very negatively affect your child and your relationship with your child and I think that's what really matters so I think it's a balance of I don't want them to do this and I'm worried about them and I'm worried that they might change their mind and they may

and if they do where's the harm you've supported. And all they will take away from it is I came out to my mom. I told her this. She supported me. It was wonderful. I know she respected me and loved me. And I know I always have that unconditional love. And, you know, you've lost nothing and you've just held their hand along the way. change, then that's up to them. And, you know, they might tell you in a few years that they feel completely differently, but they might stick with it. And you've been there and you've held their hand. And, you know, that is really, God, I would have killed for that as a child. I would have when I was telling my mom and dad from the age of about three, that I was a boy, I'm a boy, I'm a boy, I'm a boy. And no one was listening to me. And in those formative years up to, I think it's seven, when someone is telling you over and over, you are not the person you know yourself to be. The effects on my mental health, on my self-esteem, on my self-worth, on my belief were, it decimated me. So just, you know, ask yourself, is it really going to hurt you? Probably not. Is it really going to hurt them? 100% if you do not acknowledge all that. So that would be my, you know, sorry if that sounds really heavy. No, no, that gave me goosebumps when you were saying all that then. But it's so true. Like there's no harm. There is no harm in your child

being who they want to be. It's not going to harm anyone, you know. And you've just, as a parent, you have to be proud of whatever it is your child wants to be and call it experimenting if they are if you want to call it experimenting probably not to them but if you if you to yourself and your friends and your support network which we should all have as parents are calling experimenting let them experiment but as i say when you know i know a lot of people who didn't have that support from their parents and age kind of 20, 25, they're now not talking to their parents anymore. But those that have had that support are strong and are successful and know that they're loved and supported and are positive people in this world because they had that positive support from their parents. And, you know, I think any parent would want that.

You know, I think any parent would want that. And I think, you know, it's, I can't imagine anything sadder sort of, you know, as you grow older, looking back and thinking, my God, I wish I'd just been there for them when they needed me. Oh, I can imagine. And it's so great that you and your mother now have, you know, you've got a nice relationship now, don't you? You've obviously been through your ups and downs. downs and um i remember reading a part where like you ended up having to kind of negotiate in marks and spencers about um you wanting to wear more masks you want to shop in the boys section and she was like come on like come and get a dress from this section and you eventually like met in the middle that if you got some girls trousers she'd let you get a boy's top but the things you

know my mom didn't know you know we were this was the 80s and there was no internet and no one was talking about it in the papers, not like now where it's just hate, hate, bigotry, prejudice, hate, lies, misinformation, which it really is. It's utter nonsense. Everyone's talking about trans kids. No one's talking to the kids. No one's talking to their happy parents who have seen their kids flourish once they're out to just be themselves. And, you know, ask yourself, please, parents, every time you read an article about, you know, a trans child, trans kids being rushed into hormones, rushed into surgery, it's not true. We know these kids. They're just not getting it. They're not getting it. And they're not allowed to have it before 16 anyway,

certainly not like cross-sex hormones or surgeries. So just before you start believing what the papers are telling you, know that the actual trans kids are not being rushed into anything. They are really, really desperate for this help. And this other sort of rhetoric and narrative that we hear a lot is, oh, just let them live a childhood, let them have a childhood, you know, don't push this gender ideology on them. I can assure you, I had a wasted, horrific, miserable childhood because I wasn't acknowledged, because I wasn't allowed to be myself. So this nonsense about, you know, just let them enjoy it. I guarantee you every day that your child is told,

no, you don't like boys. You know, of course you don't like boys because, you know, you're not, you're not, there's no such thing as gay or, you know, you're not trans because of course you can't, you don't even know what you want for breakfast how can you possibly understand gender kids have come to you and told you that this is how they feel there's probably quite a quite a serious reason for it and you know just try and see it as a positive thing you know my mom as soon as I told her that I was that I was trans and I told her like 27 years old and I kind of burst into tears and I said this is how I've always felt

this is why I've always been so miserable and the first thing she said was what are we going to do about it and has supported me ever since

and is now my biggest champion and you know that is why we've got the relationship we have because she supported me when she had the information

she supported me well that's a perfect note to end it on love and support that is all that you guys need love and support throughout the journey um jake that has been super super insightful and i am just so happy for you and hannah that you got your happy ending that you both well i'll cry that you both i'm an emotional one uh that you both very much deserved so yeah i'm super happy for you guys and thank you so much for coming on the show thank you so much it's been really really lovely hope your nanny gets sorted out so do i okay thank you bye thanks for listening to mum's the word the parenting podcast make sure to hit the subscribe

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