Mum's The Word! The Parenting Podcast - Natalie Lee (StyleMeSunday) on Celebrating Your Body

Episode Date: May 2, 2022

There is explicit language throughout this episode, discretion advised.We tackle not worrying about the shame and stigmas in society and how we can stand up for ourselves to make ourselves happier. Natalie and Ashley discuss the realities of motherhood, taking the steps to love yourself whilst also touching on the diet industry, masturbation and teaching children about their own bodies and divorce.You can order Natalie's New Book 'Feeling Myself' is out on June 9th, and you can preorder here: https://smarturl.it/FeelingMyselfLinksWe love hearing from you! Get in touch with any topic suggestions, questions and feedback at [e-mail]----------------A Create Podcast Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

well hello i have some major news and that is alfie has slept through the night not once but twice this week honestly i'm not gonna do my os Oscar speech because I know that things can change, but I feel like a new woman. I'm freshly back from a weekend away with the girls. And guys, I know that we've been on a journey, but I really do feel like I'm going getting through the mattress sense. I'm now like finding my mom identity. I'm really, really enjoying things. I feel like I actually need to do a whole catch up podcast episode. Let me know if you want me to do that. Maybe I can do that for next week. But I don't want to

go into it too much now because I am so, so excited about today's guest. Not only does she have a, or used to work as a midwife and lactation consultant, so she can speak from expertise, but she is just one of the most remarkable and colourful people online. And most recently, she has just entered this amazing journey where she's helping women to not only feel good in their skin, but also to challenge societal norms and embrace their sexuality and sexual pleasure. Arguably her most important role is that she is a mum of two daughters. It is Natalie Lee,

aka Style Me Sunday. Hi! Thank you so much. I could see you sort of like cheering me on when I said that Alf had slept through the night. And I know this is a big, big part of like the mother identity.

Yeah. How was your own journey? Did you feel like you lost yourself in motherhood? Or did you find that your kind of career as a midwife and lactation consultant sort of helped you through it? Oh, God, not at all. Like my career as a midwife did not prepare me for motherhood at all. It's completely different.

I really struggled. I'm not going to lie. I had such a romantic idea about motherhood. And I thought, you know, it was going to be a bit like a fairy tale. I was going to have this lovely baby who just adored me and loved me unconditionally. And I loved it back and we had these beautiful cuddles and we'd go for walks and I'd cook organic vegetables and all that shit anyway it didn't quite work didn't you cook organic vegetables I mean I think I did that

about once or twice maybe and I was like what am I doing like I can't remember what Ella's kitchen I think I basically my babies lived on Ella's kitchen products you know those food pouches which were very easy by the way be careful because I can hear sirens I can already hear the pouch police you know you give your babies pouches god every time I put a pouch online I can just hear the sirens. And I actually think it's really good and easy, quick, healthy food for babies. Of course it is. Look, motherhood is hard. You've got to do, you've got to take shortcuts and do what's easiest whilst weighing up what's good for your baby. You know, at the end of the day, we all are individuals and we all have to make our own judgments I think that when you become a mother you it feels like you suddenly invite in so many opinions and and you're like I don't

I don't want your opinion I don't need your opinion just let me get on with the job because as I said it's hard enough. But for me, I think, you know, you, the reason why I was cheering you on about the sleep thing is because I think the sleep thing for me was the hardest part of motherhood. When I wasn't getting enough sleep, it affected everything. It affected my whole day. I was miserable. I was tired. I was lonely. I was sad. It was just so hard to get anything done and to feel like myself. So I really relate to just two nights, how it makes a fucking huge difference to your day and your life and how you feel. So I am so happy for you that you've had two nights. Yeah, we had one night, one really good night, then a horrific night.

So he was like, hold on, do not get too excited. And then we had it again last night. But it's true, isn't it? Because I feel like whenever you talk about having a baby like sleep is always the first topic of conversation to the point that it's like a bit annoying sometimes because like we shouldn't really judge babies on how well they sleep or not or people are like oh because obviously then it comes in and when you say in we invite in um opinions and advice I mean I feel like I was I had my door well and truly padlocked,

but people found the windows. Obviously, like the advice that you want is great, but it's the unsolicited advice and everyone has like a theory or a fix for you and you haven't really asked for it. But it is mad that it takes over your life in a way you can't comprehend because you can't really think about anything else. And like, you know, my friends would be talking to me and in my head, I was like, I can't, I really can't focus. Oh, I have nothing else to say because my wins are so minuscule. How long do you think it took you to find yourself again? And do you think it was when your daughter slash then when you had two daughters start to sleep? Yeah, I do think it very much coincided with the sleep thing. I think for me, it was probably about two years before I felt really back to myself again. Second time round, that was a lot shorter.

Definitely. I felt much more comfortable and you know when I said about inviting opinions in I didn't actually mean they were they they landed like guided missiles they were not welcome at all but also when it is your first time round there is a bit of what what am I doing what should I I do? There's no script. It's a very much like you kind of want advice, but you kind of don't as well. And there's so much conflicting advice out there. I know that as a midwife, even just from a work point of view, I saw how difficult it was for women, especially in those first few days,

to know what the hell's going on and whose advice to take and what books to read, what websites to listen to, what forums to go. It's just a minefield. And it just doesn't help. It just doesn't help. And I think second time round around I just learned to step back from all of that and just go with my instincts a bit more and be guided by my gut because that meant that me and the baby were happier and I think I was more confident in how you know my role as a mother. Did you did you find that it was um really nervous to do it all again because obviously I I just have ALF but we we do talk a lot about should we have another should we not have another and like I think we're both scared we're scared to do it all over again. I was really scared to have another child because looking back now I

think I had a bit of postnatal depression I also had a really for me traumatic birth which I didn't really recognize at the time it kind of like I think because I was a midwife I was like oh it's really not that bad like I saw it all the time in in work like emergency cesarean sections and things and I was like this stuff happens and I didn't give myself the space and the time to have any emotions around that and to really sort of debrief and sit with that so I was really scared um but it was like the best thing I ever done it actually kind of restored my faith in having a baby and motherhood what's the age gap between your girls uh three and a half years yeah that's actually really nice that it made you feel like everything that you feared at

the beginning was actually nicer and is that because of like luck like did you have a better birth or do you think it was more that you felt more equipped to deal with the hard times I think it was probably a combination of both it's really hard I think this the second time I decided to have um an elective cesarean I was advised to have an elective cesarean so the whole start was karma and um yeah I think I just felt more confident and I don't know whether it was luck or whether well I presume it was me I was just calmer and more settled and happier when I had my second baby. So she turned out to be slightly a lot more easier as a baby too. That gives me hope. It can't be easier.

What advice, we talk about the mum identity a lot on the podcast and you're obviously much further down the line. You now have a 12 and a nine-year-old, so you're much further down the line. So for anyone who is a new mum and they are kind of still battling their identity, speaking from experience, what advice would you give around identity and finding yourself again? I think the main thing for me was that I put so much pressure on myself. I put so much pressure on myself to be an amazing mom, to make sure that my house was running smoothly and it was clean and to make sure that the baby was happy and I was being a good friend and a good sister and a good daughter. I just put so much pressure on myself. And also,

I was really struggling with body confidence. I really hated, if I'm honest, that I really hated the impact that having a baby had on my body. And I was devastated. I didn't even think about the changes that my body would go through and how different it would look. I think, you know, that I felt the lowest about my body than I've ever thought in my whole life after I had a baby. I looked in the mirror and I just couldn't believe what I was seeing. I thought I was never going to be attractive to anyone ever again. I thought I could never wear a bikini ever again, because I didn't want to subject people to this disgusting sight that I saw in the mirror. I was so down anyway. And it all kind of just makes sense now why I was so devastated and how low I was.

It's so interesting because like the journey that you must have been on from now to then like now you are like an amazing advocate for body confidence and for body acceptance and I loved a reel you did in lockdown, how you'd fluctuated between a size 10 and a size 16. And I know you speak a lot about wanting to be a role model to your children in terms of how you view your body and how you talk about your body and how you treat your body. How did you get from a state of,

God, it makes me so sad, not only loathing your body but worrying not wanting what you said is not wanting to subject other people to seeing your body that's like a really sad and extreme thing to say but I understand like a lot of people will feel like that absolutely I know a lot of people feel like that that was my low point that was my catalyst for what I've been doing ever since I just suddenly started seeing myself through my children's eyes I was like I never want them to feel like I feel And the only way that I can do anything about that is by focusing on myself first and try to get better. I needed to work on myself. I needed to be a good role model for my girls. Otherwise, this cycle of perpetual

body hatred is just going to continue down the ages, you know, down the lines, it's just gonna keep going. And I didn't want that for my kids. I really didn't want that for my girls. So I had to do something about it. And it was the best thing I ever did. Like, talking about it online. I've been doing this for quite a long time now I don't know how long it is probably over 10 years so it was before body positivity was a big thing and the first time I talked about it online I was, I felt sick. I felt like I've never seen anyone who wasn't like a real sort of perfect size and very smooth and like actually show their cesarean section scar or their stretch marks or cellulite online so it felt very very radical at the time but it was definitely the best thing I ever did because I got such an amazing response and so many people resonated with it I remember back in the day um similar you know like deciding to stop allowing photographers to photoshop my images it felt like career suicide you know like now it's amazing because it shows how far we come

that it's a trend but it felt you're right're right, so radical at the time. But how did you get, so for people listening who are like, I hate my body or I hate, even like I hate myself for hating my body. Cause I think that's the thing like none of us want to hate ourselves, especially after having a baby because our bodies have done this amazing thing. And I'm sure we can all recognize and acknowledge that but there is this really fucking annoying if i'm honest narrative in the press in the media about bouncing back and it's always they always have to describe a woman with let's say it's ashley james gave birth six weeks ago, showcases her incredible physique. It's always like, you know, I thought before having a baby, I thought a postnatal recovery was pretty much letting some stitches heal and getting like getting back into this clothing size that you were as quickly as possible. I didn't know about permanent body changes or just the fact that it's a really dangerous expectation

to put on women. You know, like we're not even meant to exercise for however many weeks. We're facing with like tummy gaps and prolapses and weak pelvic floor that actually exercise or starving yourself is dangerous. So it's amazing that, you know know people like you were brave enough to be the pioneers of this movement that we find ourselves in now and whilst we've come so far we

all do struggle with body image you know i see we i think we you know we all compare ourselves to people online and some people you think they're like perfect which is obviously subjective anyway but then they have like we all have insecurities so how when your body is changed and how you know you said that you started talking about it online but like how do you go from loathing to embracing your body yeah it's it's it's it's a process it's easy. And I think definitely open up and talk about it. And don't just do it in that self-deprecating kind of, oh my God, I look awful. I look so fat in this. That is not helpful.

Actually talk about how you're really struggling and why you're struggling and talk to other people who are also going through the same thing. But, you know, I really tried to sort of widen my, my world. And I started reading, I started listening to, I didn't just start reading at that age. I started reading things like the beauty myth, for example. And I started listening to podcasts about anti-diet culture and just really trying to widen my net and expand my mind and open myself up to other ways of living that didn't involve weighing yourself every day and monitoring how many calories you took that day.

It's such a negative, destructive cycle that you get yourself in. And there's no time greater to prey on the vulnerable than just after they've had a baby. And that's what these big companies do so bloody well. You are like, you're like prey, you're sitting prey, and they focus on your vulnerabilities and they target you in order to make money out of us. And that's the problem. That's the real problem. But look, we have to change. We have to change this. We have to start talking about it. We have to start educating ourselves. And it just slowly, it just slowly, slowly, I just noticed myself getting better. And I also did things like I did an event called the Warrior Woman Project where I invited a load of women to take off their clothes

and have amazing photos. And we were just so supportive and encouraging each other. It felt really liberating that really helped me you know it's the amazing thing about social media now as well is for all the like bad press it gets and yes it can be toxic and damaging but I think we all have to remember that we do curate our own feed and for me like a real turning point was like following like women and people of different shapes and sizes and colors and you know like really diversifying your feed so that you're not I feel like diet culture and the beauty industry wants us to believe that every day the messaging is get smaller shrink yourself and you'll be happy but probably we can all think

back to especially our pre-pregnancy days where we tend to idolize the pre-pregnancy body oh my god if i could get my pre-pregnancy body back we probably fucking hated our body before we were pregnant we did so it's trying to get out of our minds that number one we look better in the past because if we didn't believe it at the time it shows us that it was our mind and not our bodies but number two like look at all the fucking beautiful women out there who are all different shapes and sizes and doesn't that prove like some of the most confident women i see online they're not they don't have six packs i don't even know six packs is part of the and maybe some of them are and maybe some of them are beautiful that have six packs but it's not

like a one size fits all and also what i find annoying is like who the fuck decides what a floor is like i actually quite like my stretch marks and my scars and like yes i am like yes i have days where i'm like oh i wish i looked like this person. But then I'm like, but I love like my body tells stories. And, you know, I would say like nature's tattoo, but it takes time to get there. And like you hit the nail on the head, like the diet industry is probably some like, well, not just one, but like plenty of billionaire old men

who are profiting off our insecurities. Absolutely. They really are. It's a multi-billion pound industry. I used to have the figures on the top of my head, but I don't anymore, unfortunately. But yeah. Have you noticed, obviously as a mum to daughters, I know that the kind of diet culture and body image issue is not just a female issue. I know, you know, they talk about a lot of boys increasingly starting to, you know, want that sort of Love Island look of muscles and everything.

But as a mum to daughters, have you noticed in your daughter's language, you know, they're struggling or they're becoming victims of this kind of same society? Not so much nothing springs to mind because in our house we don't ever talk about our bodies it's just not a thing um but I do hear stories of their friends doing things at school and we you know what we just have to have honest conversations about this and not shy away from it like sweeping things under the carpet just doesn't work it just doesn't work it just attaches shame to things that are going on if you don't like what's going on with your kids then talk about it don't not talk about it. Don't not talk about it.

That doesn't help. But, yeah, there are definitely things at school. I mean, oh, my eldest is now at secondary school, and it's a whole other ballgame. It's so much harsher and such a bigger environment than primary school where they really, like, mollycoddle the children secondary school is just like ruthless so it is hard and I do feel like I'm fighting fires constantly because of like the the advertising because of telly and, you know, things pop up and it's like, this meal plan will help you lose X

amount in two weeks, you know, it's, it's constantly trying to rebalance all the messages that they're getting from society. But just keep the conversations going. And, I mean, I did, just keep the conversations going. And I mean, I did, I made a pact very early on that I was never going to talk about my body in a derogatory way ever again. And the thing is the negative thoughts in my head was so strong at that point that I didn't know how I was going to do that. point that I didn't know how I was going to do that. But I did. And I made that pact to myself. And it really, I've really noticed how much quieter the voice, those negative voices are in my head. Listen, I'm not always 100% body confident, no one ever is. And even if you think they present a certain way online, I guarantee you that they still have their insecurities because we are all a product of this society. And, you know, as we've said, it's a multi-billion pound industry to always make us feel like we're not good enough and that we need this cream to change us. So there's a lot that goes into it. There's a lot to unpack and try, you know, try not to put pressure on yourself for

feeling like shit. A lot of stuff has gone into that and it's so difficult to unwind but I would say just keep trying just any little win any like if you notice that you have like an hour where you didn't think about your weight then acknowledge it and congratulate congratulate yourselves on it you know you've just got to go for the small wins at first and those small wins just gradually get bigger and bigger. Welcome to Paranormal Activity with me, Yvette Fielding. A brand new podcast bringing together people's real ghost, extraterrestrial and paranormal stories, as well as getting some inside details

from those who study the supernatural. I'll be listening through your paranormal stories every week and try to understand them, as well as chatting about my own encounters with an occasional paranormal investigator too. You can find us wherever you get your podcasts from, including Apple Podcasts, Spotify and Acast. Just search for Paranormal Activity with Yvette Fielding. But one of the practical things I think you can do is look at yourself in the mirror. Keep looking at yourself in the mirror. You might not be brave enough to go fully naked looking at yourself in the mirror. Keep looking at yourself in the mirror. You might not be brave

enough to go fully naked looking at yourself in the mirror straight away, but you can like start with clothes on and then start taking your clothes off and just try to focus on the things that you see that you like in the mirror. Your brain will be going crazy and telling you to focus on all the things that you hate, but really try to quieten that voice and focus on what you do like. The more often and the kind of braver you get with that and the more clothes you take off the better it gets and you will see that you slowly start to erase that negative voice from society and you start to see yourself through your own eyes and actually you know where did i you're right where did i learn that you had to have a flat stomach to be attractive, to be sexy, to like myself? Where did I learn that stretch marks weren't normal or spots weren't normal or, you know, just the texture of your

skin? You might not even be able to recognize or say anything physical about yourself, but you could say, you know, I have a really kind heart or start off with stuff that you can do. And it does have an impact. It's funny, isn't it? Because, you know, you were talking about, you mentioned the word shame earlier. And I know that this is a topic that you feel really strongly about. And I feel like it's an extension of body confidence. And that is sort of the shame that we feel around our bodies. I always laugh because the amount of women that I speak to who have gone through pregnancy and childbirth, who still use the term down there to talk about their genitals, it is the equivalent of me talking about my arm and being like, my over there.

And it's mad, isn't it? But we have so much shame and i try to really push through it and i felt really proud of myself that i started saying the word vagina because i was like go me and then i find out it's not even called a vagina it's called a vulva and i was like how have i never heard the word vulva so there there I was being like, guys, you can't use the word down there. It's vagina. And someone is like, no, it's not actually. Yeah. Well, I mean, I mean, it is. It depends on how you're talking about it. The actual vaginal canal parts of your body the right terms, because that's important to get over that shame. And I'm talking specifically about sex. And one of the aspects for me that was really important was to speak to my kids about what their parts are called and the proper names for them. So they know where their clitoris is. They know what's the vulva, what's the vagina.

They know where the urethra is they know where the perineum is like okay this is getting a bit technical maybe but it's important it's great we should boys know the name of their genitals exactly and you know because we have so many names for our genitals that it's it's like of like, we're so afraid of calling them their proper names. And that just makes us feel ashamed, right? So it's like an elbow. We call an elbow, an elbow. Why aren't we calling a vulva a vulva? Why is there so many different names for it? And that's because we're scared of saying it. So I had to work really hard at dealing with my own shame and my own upbringing and trying to be different for my kids because I didn't want them to feel ashamed of having

a fucking body. It's just a body, people. They are just tits. There's just a cleavage. Like there's nothing bad about it. Like why are you shaming me for showing legs and wearing a short skirt? I've got a body like everyone else. Why do only half of the population get to walk around in whatever they want

and the other half get abuse and shame for it. It's ridiculous. God, you're speaking my language. I was actually on GB News last night defending Angela Rayner because even women in positions of leadership and politics are having to justify what they wear and the clothing choices they make. And interestingly, I was on against a Daily Mail columnist of all people, Amanda Patel. And she was like, oh, but she knew what she was doing. She came to Parliament wearing hair extensions and a dress. And I was like, sorry, but like, so fucking what? Like maybe she had a date after all. She was going out with her mates, but also maybe she just wanted to like switch things up and feel good like why was that part of a sadistic ploy to distract a man

it's like for goodness sake like you know i feel like we're always having to justify wanting to be feminine and embrace that femininity of makeup and hair and clothes but also wanting to be taken seriously and yeah I'm sure that this is part of the shame around sex. By the way, if either of my parents or my in-laws are listening now, please just skip ahead about 60 seconds while I say this, because we were such shamed so much at school. And I remember when I was 23 and I started dating a guy who was a bit older and he bought me a sex toy and I was horrified. I was 23 and I started dating a guy who was a bit older and he bought me a sex toy and I was horrified. I was like, do you think I'm a slut? And he was like, no, I just want you to enjoy

yourself. And I was like, that's so weird. And honestly, it was really weird to me looking back because his ex-girlfriend was also older. So I think he was 30, I was 27 and his ex-girlfriend was also older. So I think he was 30, I was 27. And his ex-girlfriend was 33. So a whole decade older than me. And I was like, just because you've got like an old girlfriend, it's mortifying to even say out loud now. But I felt like he was trying to like corrupt me and like make me this like slut and make me this sex. And like this sex, make me sex. He was trying to make me sex. But it's funny, isn't it? Because men and boys talk about masturbation as if it's like normal,

but we still use the term down there to talk about our genitals because it's naughty and shameful and it's... Exactly. And you know, that's because I'm going to guess that that's because we have been told that pleasure is not ours. Our bodies are not for our own pleasure. Our bodies are for somebody else's pleasure.

We're basically a tool or a vessel to often men's pleasure. And we have never been taught, certainly not in my sex education, that my pleasure was a priority. So therefore, you're presented with this sex toy and you're like, what? How dare you? What? I'm going to actually like take control of my own pleasure. It was so alien to you. And that's what I am so passionate about changing. I'm constantly, okay, my girls do get annoyed with this, but I'm constantly talking about masturbation and that it's absolutely okay, not even just okay, but it's their right to explore their body on their own in private. And it helps in so many different ways.

It helps you have better relationships. It helps you to communicate your needs better. It helps you feel good. It can help you go to sleep. It can help with period pains and headaches. And like, I mean, the list goes on with the benefits on masturbation. So as a midwife, I'm just remembering the only time that anyone has ever insinuated that I should masturbate unless it was like a boyfriend or whatever was my midwife when I was like yeah to have a baby and she was like have sex it releases oxytocin will help the baby come and I was like Tommy have sex with me and he was like absolutely not I can literally see my son I can see my son's leg coming out of your body like I am not going near

you and I was like if you want this baby to come you will you will touch my clitoris oh my god even saying that makes me cringe but I'm speaking to you so I'm pushing through my shame no one's listening actually it's just us it's literally just us not not any of the podcasters. But what would you say? Because I'm sure that there are a lot of people who's automatic, even if they're trying to push through the shame and maybe trying to not say the term down there or whatever it might be. Lots of people I imagine will think, oh, wow, you're teaching your children to masturbate.

Aren't you sexualizing your children? No, not at all because like that's the thing like and also even if they were having sexual thoughts why is that such a bad thing I want my children to know that they have ownership and agency and a right to their own bodies and to their own pleasure and to me that that is hugely important just like I'm sure boys feel a bit of shame about wanking but it's like we all know that they do it and it's like accepted and it's even I think it's even talked about in sex education at school. I never knew as I was well into my adulthood before I knew where my clitoris was and what it was for. It is purely for pleasure, which is absolutely fantastic. There's no,

like so many parts of our body have so many different uses for other things and other people like babies, like our breasts. But, you know, our clitoris is purely for our own pleasure. And that's so amazing and wonderful, but we just don't know about it. So I think, what did you ask again? I guess what the criticism would be because of the society that we live in and because of the shame around it what would you say when people are like that it's way too young to be teaching your children about sex or you know you're going to call what's always the right wing argument about why we don't teach people about homosexuality and you know it's like they're too young you're polluting

their brains they shouldn't know about these things well again i think that's another one of my bugbears. Why do we assume that our babies are heterosexual? That's imposed on them. For me, I feel like if my children are old enough to ask about sex, then they are old enough to get the correct answer. I'm not going to be talking about the birds and the bees. I'm not going to be talking about school. I'm not going to make up some convoluted story to talk about something that is very natural, that should not be shameful, that is just part of the process. And, you know, often we see children like rubbing themselves against teddies or the sides of tables or things, because they know it feels good. They have no idea that society has made us feel crap about it and ashamed about it. They're just doing what feels good. And I want to encourage that and facilitate that and try to not burden them with all of this stuff that society imposes on us.

I suppose it's also really important to remember like children also have their own sort of, you know, I was never really taught about sex, but just because I wasn't taught about it or just because somebody would have had a conversation with me about it, it doesn't mean I was going to go out and do it like left, right and center. And I feel like actually it's really important probably for boys and girls to have these conversations so they understand consent and what's right and wrong. Absolutely. You know, the more we actually talk about it, it has the converse effect. Talking about it doesn't make you go out and want to do it. It actually means that you're going to do it in the right way when you do do it. And you're not going to be one of,

you know, one of the biggest arguments for talking to my children about sex education is that it's a safeguarding matter so many cases are thrown out of court because children couldn't correctly name their body parts and that means that if they can't correctly name their body parts they don't know that what somebody else might be doing to them or suggesting to them is wrong. So the more we talk about it to our children, the safer our children would be because they're also, if they know that it's not shameful to talk about, they'll be like, mom, dad, like somebody said this to me or somebody asked me to, you know, it just makes us feel more able to have those conversations with our children. I mean, you're doing amazing things for like pushing

past the shame and stigma around all of these topics. And I, by the way, cannot read, wait to read your book. Is it, I think it's out on the 9th of June, Feeling Myself? Yes, it is. You're going to love it, Ashley. I swear, I think you're going to really love it. I'm really, honestly, I'm so excited. But a repeated theme, shall we say, with your social media is people reporting your photos and taking them down, saying that they're sexual, saying that it, you know, like you, in your quest to help people know that sexual pleasure isn't dirty, but also to embrace their body and the way it looks how do you feel knowing that your daughters are maybe not online now but will be online and

obviously their school friends will be able to see their daughter's mom like do you worry about that or because obviously i know that we're pushing for a better society but we also live in a society where a lot of people still have that the boys will be boys mentality. Oh, such a good question and so layered. I do have fleeting moments when I worry about my children's friends or anything or people at school seeing stuff. But then I have to push past it again, and have

to remember what I'm doing, why I'm doing it. If I don't do it, that just shows that that just put me back in my box again, you know. And even if it might be difficult for my children, I mean, I'm very open with my children about what I do share online. Not that they're on social media, but they do know that I'm very much about body confidence and I'm very open about the stuff I do share. But yeah, I just try and sort of push past my doubts

and push past any hint of shame coming up. I suppose as well, the more people who, it is a team effort, like with everything, isn't it? Like it's not a one man band and hopefully it will mean one day there are really good conversations. You know, I had it all the time when people were like, oh, don't you feel bad about getting pictures of you breastfeeding on the internet? And one day your son will get bullied because, you know, he's breastfeeding. And I was like, no, I really hope that people, if they do see those photos, are like, oh, cool, you were breastfed. Or like, that's cool.

Like, why should that be sexual or creepy or weird? Like, surely education by then will include, like, all the benefits of breastfeeding if it's something that you want to do so that men aren't like oh my god sex boob oh my god you touch your mom's boobs like and we can only hope that the more normalized these things come and you know the more activists and voices that there are that it will help men and women i think it goes back to the madonna whore complex and And I think when you become a mother, people automatically assume that you're not sexual anymore and that you're going to start wearing really frumpy clothes and you, you know, you act and look and speak a certain way. Well,

no, we had to have sex to have children in the first place so why does why having why is having a baby suddenly going to stop us talking about sex and being sexual this is so interesting because I definitely before being a mom used to say things and like and I'm so embarrassed probably not like in the last like five ten years by the way but definitely like when I was a lot younger like oh my god she's a mom why is she wearing that like's a mom. But it was fed to us this narrative of like, once you're a mom, you should be more demure. Like you shouldn't embarrass your children. And I was the same. I love, Ashley, what I love is how you own up to the things and how we've all done it. We've all been there. Like, how can we push past and change and evolve and grow and, you know, show people that actually we did it too. Like these, these, these aren't these, we're not like these inspirational people who have just, who just happened to be really liberated and, and really fucking grown. We've all done it. And I've done it too. And it's like,

let's own, let's own our mistakes. And let's talk about being like that. And let's like say, this is now how I think there's so much like, there's so little space for saying I fucked up or I did that wrong. Do you know what I mean? It's like, no, we all had views and- Yeah, we all have to have space to grow because we all grew up in the same sort of society. I do feel bad, by the way,

that we're talking about sex. And I imagine a large portion of the listeners will be bad, by the way, that we're talking about sex. And I imagine a large portion of the listeners will be like, sex? What's that? I remember that once. I mean, I'm sure there are lots of people that listen who aren't in the throes of it. But listen, there's a lot of ways to have sex and you don't always need a partner to have sex. And one of the things that I found after I had children was I got more comfortable in owning my own body and exploring my own body. So if you don't feel like having sex with a partner right now, like you can, you can use your fingers, you can use

your toys, you can, you don't even have to be penetrated to have sex. Like there are things you can do to take ownership of your own pleasure. So indulge in that, even if you can't even fathom the idea of somebody else's hands on your body right now. I feel like that's a nice way to embrace your new identity and body as well, because it's like an act of self-love. It helped me so much it really did and yeah because I actually came really late to masturbation I didn't start doing it like consciously until after I had children um I did it like accidentally as a kid but then it I like the shame came in and I thought like something terrible would happen to me if I masturbated so yeah I really started to sort of analyze why I was so afraid to touch my body after I had children I mean you can see that children were a real catalyst for changing me in the most monumental way. They really have led to my involvement

and me being the person I am today. Yeah, I feel like everyone can probably hard relate to that, even if they're in the throes of it now, feeling like I don't even know who I am anymore. But I do feel like it is a caterpillar kind of into a butterfly process. And I'm definitely starting to feel like a butterfly. But I definitely am coming out the other side.

So I do hope it gives hope to other people. And one thing I do really want to touch on before we go is divorce, because I feel like that's part of like a new identity. And I know that I think during lockdown, you experienced and went through divorce. How did that change, I guess, like your role as a mother, but also your relationship with yourself? Where do I start? That's, yeah, I did go through a divorce. And, you know, I think one of the hardest things I ever did was actually admitting that I no longer wanted to be married because I felt I felt like I was being really selfish I felt like I was letting

everyone down I felt like I was imposing unnecessary trauma on my children I felt like I was like making putting my own happiness in front of everyone else's but then I really like just started to think about it in a different way and I had so much like attachments on being married, being in a relationship and what I thought that provided me. And I think just before I turned 40, I was like, I don't want to be 40 and I don't want to be unhappy. And also like who says that you're supposed to be married to the same person for the rest of your life? Who says that monogamy is the way you're supposed to do things? Who says that you're gonna, yeah, like love one person for your whole life? I mean, I was with my husband since I was 16.

So it was a long old time. I was 16. So it was a long old time. And I suddenly just started to think, you know, I don't, he was a good man. He is a good man. He's a great father and he's very kind and loving. But right now he's just not my person. And that's okay. Like it's divorce. I had to really like get around my head that it's not as terrible and awful as I thought it was going to be. It's, I still really like him. He's still a friend. He, you know, it does, we don't have to do what everyone else has done. And, you know, we don't have to hate each other. It doesn't have to be this horrible, icky, messy divorce. Of course, not everyone has that luxury. But for me, I wanted to do it the right way. I wanted to honor myself and my feelings. And I knew ultimately, if I was gonna, if I stayed in that marriage, I was going to be really, really unhappy for the rest of my life. And that will impact them negatively. I wanted my children to see two parents who were at peace, fulfilled and followed their heart.

I love that. And I feel like that's such a nice way to end as well, because, you know, I'm not saying everyone get divorced. What a lovely way to end. What I'm saying is I feel like as mums, we sometimes feel that we have to sacrifice so much to keep our children happy. But actually, our happiness is the most important thing, because I know even in myself like the moment I start to focus on me being happy in this whole crazy journey I start to a love motherhood and once I start to love motherhood I start to like enjoy hanging out with my child and I feel like you know what an amazing message to end on exactly Exactly. You know, I think, I don't know if you've read

Glennon Doyle's Untamed, but she really helped me. She was like, you know, you have to go for what lights up your soul. It's okay. It's okay to be a bit selfish. And you're right.

You don't have to, like we epitomize selflessness as a mother. And actually, why is that so valued? Why do we want mothers to, you know, be pulling their hair out and run ragged? Actually, the best kind of mother is a mother who's present. Right. And the only way you can be present is if you honor yourself and focus on what makes you happy i love the fact as well the irony in the word present because it's like number one present is a gift a gift to yourself is being present but also um it's not that physical

presence because i feel like that is what society tells you like be present and you know there's even a stupid, annoying reel. Sorry to anyone that likes it or has done it. It's like, they will only, it's like, you know, the really cheesy reels. I love them. But this one is like, they will only be this age for the very short amount of time.

Oh God, yeah. So be there. Don't miss a moment. Put everything else aside. And it's like, but what if that won't make me happy? Like I've been happier since I actually started to sort out my childcare. And like,

you know, parents are around so that I get to do things like see my friends or do my work or whatever it might be. Um, yeah, I just want to, I just want to end really quickly on, um,

a review from M on Apple podcast, because I always like to hear from people who listen. um, she just said, I love the podcast. I'm expecting to hear from people who listen and she just said I love the podcast I'm expecting my first little one in September and have a stepdaughter I've already dealt with a lot of judgment surrounding my stepdaughter but listening to this has inspired me to advocate for myself and speak up more not just for myself but for my kids having grown up in an environment where I felt I could never speak up about opinions, etc. This is huge.

Thanks to Ashley and all her guests for being so inspiring. And I hope you love this one because I feel like we've really tackled not worrying about the shame and stigmas in society. And yeah, we've got to stand up for ourselves and learn our boundaries because it will make us happier. Exactly. I feel so pumped after speaking to you. Can we do this every day? Have a little so so much for coming on and like i said i can't wait to read your book and i'm going to put all the details for it i know how important pre-orders are as well and thanks to all of you guys for listening to mum's the word the parenting podcast i really hope you

enjoyed this episode as much as i loved recording it i'm actually like i mean i'm saying i'm actually smiling i'm never happy please if you did enjoy it um leave a review uh rate it hit the subscribe and follow button all the youtubey stuff that i have to say and um as always i do love to hear from you it's so nice to get all your messages so keep in touch on whatsapp where you can send voice messages if you want it's free on 075 999 27537 or of course you can email at askmumsthewordpod at gmail.com or in em's case she left an apple podcast review which obviously really helps and i will see you same time same place next week bye