Mum's The Word! The Parenting Podcast - 'Never Doubt Your Ability As A Mum' with Tova Leigh

Episode Date: January 16, 2023

Influencer, author, comedian, podcaster and mum to 3 girls - 2 being twins! Tova Leigh joins us this week to discuss raising girls, explaining sexism, sexuality after birth, and not feeling bad about asking for help. Follow Tova @tova_leigh Send in your questions to [e-mail].---A Create Podcast Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

I should feel guilty right now because I've just done something that I feel like no mother should do but maybe we all do and that is that I just had lunch I had a little sweet craving and the only chocolate I could find in the house was Alf's secret stash of Kinder Bueno little bars that he loves and I thought do you know what I'm pregnant he's not they're getting demolished do I should I feel guilty or not I'm not sure but anyway I've just really enjoyed eating all four bars of Kinder Bueno and now I am pumped and ready for today's podcast and normally I do a little intro where I catch you up on what's been going on but I actually really want my guests to have this debate with me in my intro because I feel like I need a veteran mum to chat with about this.

So I'm just going to go straight in and introducing her. So my guest this week, I'm so excited about. She is one of my favorite people to follow online. She is a writer, a performer, an author, a podcaster. And do you know what? She doesn't say this, but I'm going to say actually, maybe you do say this, a comedian. She honestly really makes me laugh with her videos, lots about motherhood, but also she has lots of viral videos and a much more important and serious subject matter around feminism and women's rights.

She released a book. I don't know if I'm allowed to say the F word, if it punishes me in the podcast anywhere, but it's called Fucked at 40, Life Beyond Suburbia, Monogamy and Stretch Marks. And I just love her because she is dedicated to promoting gender equality, championing women. And she just talks so articulately. And did I mention she's funny as well? And she is also a mum to three girls. So really

the perfect person to talk to, to find out more about raising them, given that I will soon be a mum to a daughter as well. It is Tova Lee. Hello, hello. I'm so happy to be here. Finally. Yes, I'm good hello I'm so happy to be here finally yes I'm good I'm really really good how are you more importantly you look you look really well you look glowing is that annoying when people say that to you do you hate it? Do you know what it doesn't annoy me but I feel like in my head I always think it's Charlotte, Charlotte Tilbury's Hollywood glow, but thank you. It's definitely not a pregnancy glow, it's a Charlotte Tilbury glow. But yeah, do you know what, it actually doesn't annoy me

because obviously it's nice, but it does annoy me that it stops in the postnatal period because I feel like that's when you really want like the compliment. And sometimes I'm like, I'm not growing, I'm not glowing. I look like I could be coming to haunt your house, but you say it. It's like kind of like a thing that you say, isn't it? And then when you're, when the baby's actually here, you're like, wow, you look tired. And you're like, no, this is actually just my face,

but this is my face without makeup. Cause I haven't had time to do my makeup. Do you have a lot of pictures from when your son, right, was very little? Because I barely have any pictures of that period. And the ones that I do have, I look gray. My face is just gray. It has absolutely no, I look dead. Like I really, really do.

I sort of regret not taking more pictures though. How old are your girls now? So my eldest is 11 and I have twins and they're nine. Oh, so see, I was going to say that I do have lots of pictures, but I think it's because I've grown up in the sort, I became a mom in the Instagram era. I think had it been like 10, 15 years ago, because I barely have any pictures from back then, apart from the blurry drunken ones that I put up on Facebook. By the way, why did we used to go on nights out

and post an entire 60 photo album of our night out? But anyway, yes, I actually do have lots of pictures of both Alf and me. And it's interesting because I feel like you really see the shift in my mental health of going through that sort of optimism at the beginning obviously everyone's timelines and experiences are very different but mine was like the first four months of oh my god this is amazing why didn't I do it sooner everyone should be a mum this is the best you're so tired but it's so worth it and then I feel like four months in when you're like wait I don't I still don't get to have a lie

in my life still isn't back to normal and then I and then I see like just death behind the eyes wow no no I know this is actually what I wanted to chat to you about to begin with I was going to do it as an intro and then I thought well who better to speak to than what we like to call veteran mums but I had um lovely guest on my podcast last week who has a son who's seven weeks old and she was amazing. And it's so nice to reminisce in that sort of newborn bubble and she had a positive birth and it's amazing. But, and this is the but, and it's a huge respectful but,

because I was in that camp in my newborn days as well. But I feel like, and I want to ask you if this is normal, and if you're listening, I want to ask you if you're someone who would be a veteran mum. There's a real difference between people who are pregnant for the first time and in the newborn stage. And then the mums who have slightly older children, obviously I have some new too. I'm finding it hard to articulate it

because I don't want it to sound like I'm being offensive or rude at all. But it's like, there is a sort of optimism in the beginning or a sense that it it's really tough but it's worth it and I'm still figuring it out and an idea that maybe when once you get to six months you have it figured out and so it's really hard to listen to that and obviously you love the optimism and you don't want to project any negativity onto them but you can't help thinking like when they say I'm really tired but it's worth it You can't help thinking like, try, try two years in.

I don't know. I mean, to be honest, like, I don't remember even feeling that optimism you talk about. Yeah. I think I, I probably represent a completely different experience to you. I had awful birth stories, traumatic, like really, really not good both times around. And the first, you know, few months were very difficult physically, mentally, emotionally, in any, in any shape or form. So for me, when I look back at the time when they were a little, I don't have good memories of that at all. You know, with my

with my eldest, it probably got better sooner because she was a singleton. So you know, I sort of somehow, I guess, at some point, got my head around it, because it was one baby. And then I thought, Okay, I can do this again, it's going to be okay, because I know now what to expect. again it's going to be okay because i i know now what to expect and then of course we got we had twins and no one no one can prepare you for what that means i honestly don't know how you parent twins a friend of mine just had twins and they were very wanted um she had to talk yeah of course they were doing ivf and so obviously it's like amazing that she had twins. But I think like, how? How do you do it with two of them? Exactly.

And we really wanted, of course, they were all very much wanted. And we also had not IVF, but we had IUI. So actually the chances of us having twins were, you know, they were there. It was a possibility, but we didn't really think about it. So we were clearly a bit stupid and didn't really consider it because I had preeclampsia. So my story is really complicated. I was in hospital for two months before they even, you know, they were born and my daughter was just, had just turned two. So it was really, really difficult.

And, you know, I don't have family in the UK. So we were quite, it was just us. Anyway, all that together, I think it was three days in, I turned around to my husband, Mike, and I said, right, how much money do we have in our savings? And it wasn't a lot. And I was like, we are getting all the help that we can afford. And that's how we handled it. We got people to help because I had no family. My mom, my sister were away. And this is what I say too, because I had so much guilt around that alone, by the way, he talked about mom guilt. You just mentioned it earlier on. Like I had so much guilt. What's wrong with me? Why can't I do it by myself? There's other moms out there who have twins and

they are doing it without help. But I knew, I knew that I couldn't do it. I knew that I couldn't do it. Like I was so broken. And I do think it had to do with physical. You know, I have two months pumped up with drugs. I had a clemsia 12 hours after they were born. I crashed like I nearly died. So my body was broken.

And I don't think I feel, I feel like I'm quite strong mentally, but when your body isn't that much pain and it's been, you know, it's been through that much trauma, it doesn't matter how strong you are mentally. I couldn't, I just couldn't. Um, and you know, and I did feel very guilty and there was a mom who I never met, who my brother got me in touch with as she lives in Paris till this day, I never met her. And he said a mom who I never met, who my brother got me in touch with as she lives in Paris to this day. I never met her. And he said to me, I've got this friend. She had twins. I think you should talk to her. Cause I was like, you know, crying. Oh my God, I failed. This isn't, you know, what am I doing? And she was so kind to me, this stranger who spoke to me very early on

and, and sort of told me, you know, like what I needed to hear, I guess, in that moment, which was that I was doing the best thing for me and my babies, because I knew what I was capable of doing in that moment. And she also talked to me about her experience. And when she had her twins, she went through something quite similar and found it very difficult, but didn't ask for help. And she she talked about the price that she felt she paid for not having the help and trying to sort of doing it herself and looking back. And we always look back and we think, oh, maybe I should have done this or maybe I should have done that. So her experience was looking back and thinking, God, I wish I had asked for help because actually maybe, you know, it would have been better. So, yes. So I don't look back and think of those were difficult times for me.

It became really great and like love, love, love it all from, I guess, around the age of five. Someone told me, oh, from the age of two, it gets so much easier. But not when you have three children under the age of two, it gets so much easier, but not when you have three children under the age of two, that's a different califish. But, um, but yeah, from the age of five, we're at the sweet spot now. I love it. Not everybody is into the baby stage and took me a long time to be able to say that. Cause you, you, we have this like babies, you love babies, but not everybody, you know, for me, I love my kids now,

like we chat and they're funny and we can do stuff and it's the sweet spot before they turn into teens and don't want anything to do with me, you know? I actually love that you said when we were discussing about what to talk about, you were like, they're actually really fun now, so I've got nothing to complain about. So maybe that's boring.

But do you know what? I think it's so important to talk about the fact that not everybody enjoys that sort of baby stage or the toddler stage or whatever it was because you know I love that four-month newborn phase and I also appreciate now that that comes with the privilege of having your child being healthy not having them have colic. Like I feel like there's such a forced positivity on mums that if they're not happy, it's because they're not grateful or they're, you know, oh, mums are so negative. Mums are so negative.

We hear it all the time. And there's this sort of idea that we praise the mums who like buckle up and get on with it and do childbirth pain-free and also if you don't feel that connection there is like you're a witch you basically should be burned to the stake and I've I had so many dark thoughts from six to twelve months because I never wanted children and you know what I'll be honest I still sometimes think all the reasons I didn't want children for are what I don't enjoy about my life now and so even though I love half now I think toddlers are awesome which is funny because I never liked toddlers before and I was like oh babies will

be cute but then I'll have a toddler uh whereas now I'm like they're so cool like even their little challenges it's so like fun to watch someone experience everything for the first time and to learn but there's still a part of me and I say to Tommy I'm like I'm learning to be happy again but I was happy before I had a child and all the things that made me happy are things that I can't currently do like be spontaneous see my friends all the time go traveling and so it's almost like I'm trying to rebuild a happiness so it's actually nice for me to hear that you didn't feel like you enjoyed it until five because it makes me and hopefully others feel reassured that it's like okay I'm not I'm not a witch but I've also always known that

I'm a good mom so that's why I feel like I can say these things because I've, I've never doubted my capability of being a loving mother. No, totally. Same. I mean, again, I think maybe for me, it took a bit longer and I'd had a, I, I had to do some work on actually perspective because I think, you know, especially if, well, you, hopefully you enter parenthood with the best intentions. And so you want to do the best job that you can. And if you're a person who has quite high

standards and sort of is quite harsh on yourself with everything, and you're a perfectionist, then you're going to be a perfectionist also in your approach towards parenting. And, you know, that's already a recipe for disaster because parenthood is something you can't really prepare for. I had ideas maybe of what I was going to be like, but in practice, it just comes as a surprise sometimes. And actually I learned something from my husband, you know, we always laugh at like how, I don't know, dads like don't have dad guilt or they just, maybe they lower the bar a bit, but not in a bad way, just in a sort of like, they'll pat themselves on the shoulder more than I think moms do.

Sometimes that's a massive generalization, but maybe society pats them on the shoulder a lot. That too, that too, for sure. For sure. Yeah. And we had all of that as well as sort of, Oh my God, he's a saint for, you know, for doing pickup and all that, of course, where I did it for like six years straight and no one said anything to me. So yeah, we had all of that, but, um, but you know, we had a moment in our, uh,

in our relationship where we both kind of dropped the ball and it was both of us at the same time, we just forgot something and it wasn't in the diary and we didn't make it. And we kind of rushed there and got there late and made it eventually. And I was tormented with guilt about the fact that we had forgotten in the first place, but Mike was able to see how we, when we found out how we dropped everything and, and raced and made it in time. Like he was able to see the glass half full, whereas I he was able to see the glass half full, whereas I was only able to see the glass half empty.

And I thought, God, there's so much in that moment just about perspective. I take all the great stuff I do as a mom for complete granted. Like I don't for one minute go, God, you're a really great mom for doing this or that. I just noticed the stuff that I don't do. And I think that's

where mom guilt actually comes from. It's just the sort of the perspective, not looking at the, at the stuff that you do. But for me, going back to the other things that you said about life before, I only had my first, when I was 35, I don't know how old you were when you had that. Yeah, I was 34. Maybe I was 35 now, so yeah, 34. Yeah, I was 34. Maybe I was 35 now, so yeah, 34. Ah, okay. So similar age. I don't feel like I miss so much stuff from life before. I feel like my life before, I'm not living my life before.

I don't know if you can understand this, or you can relate to this. When you think about, almost like you're living a few lifetimes in one life. So my childhood feels like it was a different person. It's not even my life. It's someone else. And then I think about my teenage years or, you know, growing up in Israel, my twenties, my life now resembles nothing. It's not the same people. It's not the same environment. It's nothing. So sometimes I think about my life before kids in the same way. It's like now I'm just living a different life. I can't explain it. And I don't compare because in my mid thirties and I'd been single for six years. So a lot of those, those final years of my thirties, it was about rebuilding a life. You know, everyone's saying, when are you going to meet someone? And this idea that you needed a man to settle down, to be happy with that. I put so much into like my happiness and my independence that I genuinely got to a point where I was like

this is great I don't need anyone like I don't I don't need kids I don't and I could I could enjoy like the travel and the friends and I was kind of living this sex in the city sort of life that you know lots of people would envy and then lockdown happened and I met like you know Tommy and babies and everything came so quickly that I'm still a bit like finding it hard to let go of that chapter because it wasn't necessarily a conscious decision. Yeah. Come out of that chapter. So did you find in your sort of what they call mattress sense journey? So your initial few years of motherhood that you were struggling to close the chapter or were you like? Not really. I think I think I probably was ready.

I mean, like you, I never really it's not that I didn't want children. I just didn't really think about it. Like it wasn't, you know, I wasn't like, Oh God, I can't just can't wait to get married and have lots of babies. Like it really wasn't me. I wasn't the type that would see other people with babies and go, can I hold your baby? Like not, it wasn't, it wasn't on my radar at all, but I was married previously. I divorced and then, and it still wasn't really thinking. on my radar at all but I was married previously I divorced and then and still wasn't really thinking and actually it came out of that experience thinking I'm never getting married again like I don't want to be married I don't I don't want any of this and then I met Mike and I don't know I had something I guess I went oh okay I don't know. I was ready when, and also this will sound so, I don't know.

This will sound weird, but okay. Mike's older than me. He's eight years older than me. And when I met him, I don't know, when I met him, I suddenly wanted children like before that I didn't. And then we went and we couldn't get, we didn't get pregnant for a while. And then we went and started getting like checked up. And then they told us we might not be able to have children.

And for me, that kind of changed everything. So just the thought of, Oh God, like I never really wanted or necessarily thought about it, but I always kind of assumed we would, I would maybe, you know, I'd be able to. And then when that was sort of almost taken away from me, I, I suddenly panicked, you know, I would maybe, you know, I'd be able to. And then when that was sort of almost taken away from me, I, I suddenly panicked, you know, I was like, Oh God, you know, I, maybe I do want children now. So it was a process, but I felt very ready. But what I will say is that jumping into parenthood and having three children very, very quickly and not thinking about it

because you just, you feel like you're in a fog. That's how I felt. So I wasn't, I wasn't paying attention. And what was, what got lost in that time was, yeah, a lot of me. So I came out of that fog after five years, looking back, I think like you're, you're very aware of it, but I wasn't. And then after five years, when I came out of it, I realized that I had no idea who I was and what was left of me apart from just being the mother of these three very young children. And you mentioned the book in the beginning. That's exactly what the book was about.

Fucked at 40 was about my midlife crisis that I had in my early 40s when my kids were just that little bit older and I was able to go like, oh my God, what's left? You know, where is that girl who loved snowboarding and loved, you know, adventures and where is my sexuality? Is there anything left? You know, like all of that. I mean, yeah, sexuality. I mean, baby that wakes up at four in the morning, we go to bed as soon as we can. I mean, it's not that sexy, is it? Especially being pregnant as well. And then all the things that you enjoy, like you were saying, snowboarding. So how, how do you find yourself again? Because I always said, and I feel like we all say this is I'm not going to lose myself in motherhood. And I look at some people and they seem to really do it well and I'm envious but then at the same time

it's like but I was breastfeeding so I couldn't go out and do all of those things obviously I could have made a decision to like I'm going to stop breastfeeding but even as I'm about to re-enter you know that first year of motherhood again, it's like, am I going to lose myself all over again? Like, cause it's hard not to when you're raising babies. Yeah. And I think a lot of it is something that you really can't even help because think about it, especially for moms, uh, you know, just think about the most simple thing in your body. Right. Just think about the most simple thing, your body, right? So I feel like I lost autonomy over my body.

You do as a mother, even from the stage, even from the moment you are pregnant with all the tests and they touch you and you have to like, you feel like, I felt like slowly detaching from my body. Like I had to detach from it because, and then you have your baby and again, traumatic births and all that, but also,

you know, the breastfeeding and, and the constant touching you, the constant pulling you, there's something really. So when you talk about sexuality, how can you even feel connected to that part of you when you don't even feel connected to your body period?

Like it's just not yours anymore. you don't even feel connected to your body period like it's just not yours anymore you don't own it alone someone else is is using it is owning it with you and i don't mean to make it sound horrible it's also beautiful and lovely and you want to give everything that you can of course to your baby and your child but i don't think it's surprising that so many women feel that disconnect and that sexuality is a big surprising that so many women feel that disconnect and that sexuality is a big price that so many women pay. The good news, though, is that it doesn't last forever, because as every, you know, as your children grow older and become more independent, they become more separate, separated from you for good and for bad. You know, and I and for a lot of

women, you know, there is a point where you regain that back for different women, women, it's different ways. I made a bucket list, which is in my book. And I went out and sort of did loads of things that helped me reconnect with lots of sides of me that I felt like I lost. And sexuality was one of them, you know, and it included lots of some silly things, but some great things like I think movement, dancing, I did pole dancing.

So it had like that element of, you know, of the, of the high heels and sort of doing all that was lovely. And I did a nude photo shoot and I, and I, I did loads of stuff, you know, and with my girlfriends and trips to Ibiza, just like really recapturing everything that I felt like I had completely disconnected from. Some people maybe can do it in the process. I couldn't, I needed to come out on the other side to first be able to do all that. I love the idea of doing a bucket list. And my thing for this year is to schedule in just once a month I feel like that's realistic and something with my friends especially because I moved further out of London so I don't I'm not

like within a five ten minute radius of them and I've talked for probably the last 18 months I probably even bored you on the podcast with it but I miss my friends I miss my friends I miss my friends and so then I was like, I guess it's like a small, it's not quite bucket list, but it's that thing of like once a month I'm arranging to see my friends. And even if that is them coming to my house for the weekend, I've never been a good forward planner, but I'm like, that is going to be the thing that I do to feel like myself and to feel like

my old self. Welcome to the Train Happy podcast with me Tali Rai. This is the podcast that helps you have a feel-good relationship with fitness, food, and body image. Each week, we'll be digging into an intuitive and inclusive approach to our health and well-being as we're joined by leading experts, friends of mine, and you to hear more about the journey of letting go of diet culture and feeling good in the skin you're in. It's a podcast for everyone, no matter what body you're in. You can find us wherever you found this podcast. Just search Train Happy wherever you get your podcasts and hit follow. There is nothing more horrendous than not getting sleep for a long duration of time. It is so cruel. It is so hard. And I think, you know, how can you,

how can you then have the energy to also chat about other things or go out or, or, or I don't know, even get dressed, have a shower. I think, you know, we all have this image of, and this is again, where social media, by the way, is, I think it's better today because you have enough people I hope saying it, but before the idea of what a fresh mom looks like is, was so, so dishonest, you know, it was so dishonest anywhere you looked, it just looked so easy.

And you do. And I think that also helps with the, uh, contributes to the mom guilt. Cause if it doesn't feel that way, if you don't feel like wearing all white and doing your hair and having a full face of makeup and a massive smile and blah, blah, blah, you know, through, you know, five seconds after you got your baby, you feel like you've done something wrong. Like, how is this possible? Because I've seen the images and I've seen the movies and I've seen it all. I think now maybe it's better. There's more representation of other things as well.

I was going to say it's better, but then I feel like there's this other side that you see where people are like, oh, mums these days are so negative or mums think it's cool to slag off parenting. I know that, I mean, you you started your blog I think in 2015 my thoughts and stuff which um was basically I love that you said it yourself it's blunt rants about motherhood marriage sex all things taboo but do you find that there is a sort of pushback on you know your honesty as someone else's mums are negative. I think I know what you mean. I, I, I, I've seen it and I know what you mean. My first blog post in 2015 was titled, I love my kids,

but sometimes I wish they would fuck off. And if you read it, I think it's very, very clear how desperately in love I am with my children. And that was always true. Like that was never not true ever. Um, so I feel like what I wanted to do then, and there wasn't a lot of it back then was to just be honest about how sometimes I just can't, or sometimes it's so tough and you have those thoughts. Um, you know, I mean, think about the mom who's like in the middle of the night, her kid does, her baby does have calling and they won't sleep and she hasn't slept and her boobs are engorged and all of that.

And in that moment, she thinks, I'm just going to put the baby down here and I'm going to get in the car and drive and never come back. And she's had that thought. And that's a dark thought, you know, and if no one says to her, hey,'s had that thought and that's a dark thought, you know, and, and if no one says to her, Hey, I had that thought as well. Let's see who can help you. Is there someone who can take the baby for a few hours so you can go into bed and just sleep, you know, then she's going to think that something is wrong with her. And that's kind of, well, to be honest, I started cause I just wanted to vent. And I, and when I posted that blog post, it was one of those days where I was just at home

and I knew I was about to just explode. And I asked Mike to leave with the kids so I could sit down and write this blog post. And I didn't have a blog. That was my first blog post. But I do, I have seen throughout the years this kind of growing trend of sort of constantly moaning about the kids,

but never really, I don't know. And maybe what I was missing and I, it's not even anyone specific because I can't even think of anyone specific as an example, but just, you know, for me, it was never about just moaning for the sake of moaning. It was because I was finding it really, really hard. And I, and I did not know, by the way, at that time that there were other parents out there who felt that way. I didn't genuinely, I posted it thinking, you know, I'm going to get so much hate for this. And I didn't, I, I, I, you know, I, I, people were saying, thank you. Like I, I, I didn't know anyone else felt that way. But like I said, I haven't posted about my children in so long now, because first of all,

they're older now. And I feel like it's trickier with social media to post about your children when they're older. Cause it has, you know, even though they were featured quite a lot, it was very much about me. So my experience as a mother and they were obviously in there, but it was really about my me. So my experience as a mother, and they were obviously in there, but it was really about my experience. Whereas now the challenges I'm facing as a parent with my children have to do a lot with them. So they're, you know, they're getting into preteens and the, you know, do you know what I mean? And that has nothing to do with me now.

And I suppose that's personal to them. It's not up to you. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. So the only thing I could right now about my kids is like how I love them. It's not up to you. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. So the only thing I can write now about my kids is like how I love them and I can't believe that they're growing up and soon they won't want to do anything with me. And I'm so sad and that's it. And no one wants to hear that. That's why I'm not posting about it. So I guess going back to my original question, which I didn't articulate well, but now that we're talking, I'm like, so this is what I mean. which I didn't articulate well, but now that we're talking, I'm like, so this is what I mean.

When I hang out with, and let's say I'm really excited to be a mom out of lockdown because all the mom clubs and stuff didn't exist in lockdown. So this time round, but then I think, but there's a real in my head. And guys, if you're listening and you get this, please let me know that I'm not just this person on my own. But I think because I went through such a rough journey of it, from going from such a high at the beginning to then totally crashing to the point I was suicidal in that sort of six to 12-month period, I find when I'm hanging around with new mums or pregnant mums,

there's this sort of like, not not deliberate but sort of gaslighting and I'm putting myself in this bracket because I used to also do this of like oh moms are so negative they just need to look on the bright side yeah you're tired but it's worth it people are ungrateful or or they're in that kind of bubble and I love new moms like I want to support them because I know that they're going to go through some rocky bits but I find it hard not to be able it's like I feel like obligated to not talk about anything negative or tough because I don't want to scare them so that's what I'm trying to say there's almost like a if if motherhood and the journey into it is mattress sense which is kind of like an adolescence it's like they're still in that,

the childhood phase of motherhood. And so I almost feel like I have to monitor what I say and how I say it and my experiences so as not to scare them or make them feel a certain type of way. Do you get that? Yeah, but then you hear, yeah, but then you hear, I mean, you know, some people would rather not know.

And then you hear people who would say like, why did anybody tell me? I have a friend whose sister just had a baby. And again, it wasn't easy and she's not finding it easy either at the moment. And, and all she's saying all the time is why did anybody tell me? Like, why did I not know this? How did I, why didn't anybody say to me that this was going to happen or this was going to happen? So you get some people want it this way and some people want it that way and i guess there isn't just one glove fits all you know yeah um yeah and also i think that things can also be true at the

same time you know you can be really really grateful for having your babies and completely think and feel that it is worth it. And I agree with that. But at the same time, hate the baby stage or sometimes want them to fuck off. Like it can work at the same time. I don't see them necessarily as contradicting because I think definitely share from your experience. Yeah.

I suppose it's probably more of a like wider societal issue about the romanticization if that's a word of motherhood that you know it's like none of us want the just you wait comments like i hated that like me being super excited in pregnancy and anytime i shared excitement it'd be like just you wait and that's the hard thing but i get that feeling of wanting to say it when you hear people being like, oh, you know, this sleep's tough, but it's worth it. And it is hard not to be like. That might be their experience. That might genuinely be their experience. That's the thing. There's no just one experience. My sister had an amazing, she had amazing birth. Like she

loved the baby stage for real. Like for real, we could not have had a more different experience. I believe her that that's, you know, she, she was tired. Yes. They cried at night, but you know, but she was, she was okay. And even that doesn't say anything, you know, we, you just can't really compare experience to experience, you know, but you're right that the society has romanticized it. It's made it look like there's just one way that you're supposed to be a mom or there's just one experience or two.

This side and that side, when all the shades of gray in the middle are just always kind of not really represented. I think actually how I found you on the internet was your videos around feminism and women's rights. And obviously you're a mom of three girls. I'm about to become a mom of a girl. Do you think like becoming a mom of daughters made you more of a feminist or made you more aware of feminism and made you, I guess, like want to champion the world, like women's rights to make it a better

world for your daughters? Yes. I've always championed women's rights and it's always been something that I'm really passionate about, but yeah, absolutely. I think being a mom of girls has made me feel like I like have a real purpose. I, you know, I, I'm so, I'm so desperate to try and make the world better for them, for their future. A lot of the content that I obviously create is for women about women. Um, a lot of it, obviously they haven't watched and they can't watch, but, uh, it kind of seeps into everything, I guess, uh, in our house, hopefully not in an annoying way. But I always joke about it. We my kids can spot sexism like a mile away. You know, they can sniff it quickly. I feel like most sexist experiences or encounters that I had in my life went completely above my head throughout my

teens, throughout my 20 twenties. And I probably became more and more aware, like in my thirties, because I was just so used to them. Like I was, it was just so everywhere in movies that I watched and, you know, just the way the world is that I didn't even notice. So I, I quite liked the fact that at the age of nine, they can sort of spot it, you know, a mile away. My daughter's had a gym, a PE teacher sort of asked them to run. And he gave the girls the short laps and said, the boys are going to run the big lap and the girls are going to run the short lap. And my daughter sort of went, excuse me, that's sexist.

We all need to run the same laps. She's nine. And they obviously let them all run the same thing and i don't think he ever thought about that so i feel like that's great and uh and i yeah and i ruin a lot of movies for them as well because you know you you view the world now differently and you go god how did i not notice this so we i'm very annoying to watch movies with i'm aware of that yeah i imagine even things like i always say like becoming a feminist or becoming aware of gender inequality it's kind of like something that you almost wish that you didn't have because you're like the world was so much

simpler when i could just watch greece and enjoy enjoy the musical as opposed to being like he didn't ask consent he really pushed her her there. That's so true. Yes. But also I think if you look back and you think about it the first time, or when you watch these, you know, grease or other like pieces of content that were very, that are now very, very obvious. I don't know.

I have vague memories of feeling a little bit uncomfortable or knowing that something wasn't exactly right. But you know, when you look around and you go, well, no one else is saying anything. And, and this is like a really popular movie. So it must be okay. Like it's just me. And I just brushed it off because I think intuitively we knew, you know, we all, we knew. See, I don't think I did that. Cause I, I also grew up, you know,

Cruel Intentions was like the biggest movie ever when I was about 13. And I remember really being like, wow, I want to be the girl like Reese Witherspoon. I don't want to be a slut like Sarah Michelle Gellar. It was really painted to me of like, if you're virginal and if you're good, that's like pure and that's pretty and the guys love you. Whereas if you're like a slut, like Sarah Michelle Gellar, like that's evil and that's pretty and the guys love you. Whereas if you're like a slut, like Sarah Michelle Gellar, like that's evil and that's bad.

So I really do feel like I was sort of brainwashed in that. And also that was perpetuated by my school. Like I went to an all boys school. There was 500 boys, 37 girls. I started at 14. We were the first set of girls. And there was so much slut shaming and so much like really inappropriate behavior

like i remember we did not we did but the boys had this thing called dekegging which is essentially sexual assault but it was where they would pick a girl it was usually after sport so we'd be in track suits and they'd say be coming from the rugby pitch they'd pick a girl's target and they would try and dekeg them which meant pulling down their pants so you'd be 14 girl's target and they would try and dekeg them, which meant pulling down their pants. So you'd be 14, 15 years old and suddenly you'd have like the first 15 rugby team running towards you and they would be trying to pull down your pants. And at the time, I remember like our biggest fears were either that we'd forgotten to shave because obviously body hair was like the most shameful thing in the world. Or we'd be on our period and maybe like our tampon string or our sanitary pads would be showing and it would be haunting. And the teachers never once pulled up the guys and were like, Hey, this is actually not appropriate.

They'd actually tell us off if we scream, because they were like, you're attracting attention. You know what boys are like. So my question to you that I feel like everybody wants to raise a strong daughter, but how do you even go about it because I feel like I'm getting comments already and I'm witnessing comments already of like number one my biggest pet peeve everyone going to like saying to Alf like oh he's going to be such a heartbreaker and I'm like I hope not whereas then you get the comments on the other side now that I'm having a girl of people being like oh my god you're going to have to lock her up until she's 18 and it's like but but I don't want to lock her up or I could just empower

her to make good choices yeah for herself for anyone listening who is maybe in the new mom stage or finding out they're having a daughter or I guess even a mom to a son, it's relevant. How do you raise good daughters and good sons? First of all, it's true. I feel like how we raise our sons is just as important, possibly even more important, because a lot of the times it's low bar of expectations we have actually from boys. You gave the example of your school.

It's a great example. No one talked to the boys. There was, you gave the example of your school. It's a great example. No one talked to the boys. They had there was no expectation from them. And I do think that girls, there's far more expectations from girls than there are from boys. If you think about sexual violence, it's all about how you protect yourself rather than how to, you know, to just not be violent or not to rape or not to do any of these things. So I think it is a matter of raising everybody to be really respectful, to talk about stuff like consent. I think you're going to encounter loads of this kind of gender stereotypes.

You, I mean, you know, gender stereotypes set in as early as the age of five, but it starts from the moment you're pregnant, from gender reveals being the pink and blue, from how we design our nurseries, from the toys that we buy our children, from the clothes that we put on them, the slogans on the clothes, from the programs that they watch, from what people say to them, the words we use. I mean, you witness it on a daily basis, but like you said, sometimes we're so brainwashed, you don't see it. It's like the matrix. Once you open your eyes to it, you will see it everywhere.

I was at a barbecue a couple years ago with lots of people who had children. Everybody had children and everybody was playing football. Kids, grownups, everybody, boys, girls, everyone. A boy fell over and he started to cry. And the response of the people around him was come on, champ. Come on, champ. Up you go. Come on. You're a winner. You can do this. Let's go. Good for you. You're so brave. And then two minutes later, a girl fell over and started to cry. And the response was completely different. The response was, are you okay?

Oh, sweetie, do you need a hug? Do you want to sit down? You don't have to play if you don't want it. Come, should we put a bandaid on? It starts so early, so, so little. So, you know, and then it moves on to what expectations do we have of girls and boys in the house? Do we expect our children to do chores? And if so, are they all doing the chores or are we expecting a bit boys in the house? Do we expect our children to do chores? And if so, are they all doing the chores? Or are we expecting a bit more from the girls?

Are we expecting certain chores from the girls and certain chores from the boys? Is there really a reason why boys take out the trash and the girls do the dishes? Really? Like, is there? There's loads of things. And it just carries on throughout our life. Yeah, and there's so much in language, isn't there? Like, even things and it just carries on throughout our life yeah and there's so much in language isn't there like um even tommy does it sometimes i mean alpha's so young he doesn't

even understand but if tommy's going to work he'll be like you're the man in the house now and i'm like but there's a woman in the house that's capable to look after you know but he's like oh you're so sensitive and i'm like no but it's like i don't need him but yeah why does there have to be a man in the house when I'm just as capable? And, you know, like the whole thing of like, don't be a girl, don't grow a pen. It's like, sorry, we literally, like I gave birth out of my vagina,

like grow a vagina because they are a lot more resilient than balls. But then I suppose it also teaches us as women to reject femininity. So then we go through that stage of being like, I'm not like the other girls. I'm not like the other girls because actually being a girl is inherently bad in society. Yeah, totally. I mean, honestly, once you dive into it, you can't.

There's so many layers to peel. I feel like for parents to if they if this is important to parents so that, you know, their children, next generation, maybe, you know, do a little bit better than you have to first educate yourself. And I think, you know, to read up about gender stereotypes, to get a bit more information about how sexism, by the way, is linked to sexual violence, because it's not just about inequality when we think about pay gaps, or it has to do with actual sexual violence, you know, and, and I think, yes, that's the extreme side of the scale, but it's 100% connected. You know, if we allow ourselves that kind of those stereotypes, and the way we label people, these things are gradual and they become more and more and more extreme. And in the extreme form, yeah, it's violence towards women. I was just going to say, how is casual sexism linked to sexual violence?

Because, so I see it all the time, for example, in the news this week, they were talking about criminalizing with cat callers. And I saw all these, obviously it's always guys being like, oh, you can't do anything anymore. And it's really hard to try and explain to them why it's not just catcalling. That how can you explain to people who might think, oh, it's just overreacting

or the world's going crazy, that all of those things are linked. I mean, the way I look at it, I see it as a gateway, like a gateway drug, because it opens the door to things that are more extreme. And just to give an example, so if you think about someone on the street, sort of, you know, how quickly it becomes sexual harassment, for example, if you're walking down the street and someone, you know, whistles, and that's okay, And no one says anything. And then

the next day they might shout something and it might be like, Hey, look at you and your jugs or something along those lines. So now they're talking about your body. And then the next day they might cross the road and I don't know, maybe pinch you on your ass. Cause that's happened to a lot of us. It's not most of us, it's not all of us. And then the next day they might get annoyed that you're not, you know, you're not, you're ignoring all of this. So they might stand in your way and that's now starting to be a bit more kind of, you know, do you know what I mean?

And maybe they grab you the next day and it just leads into like much more, much more severe and problematic behavior, where at the end of the day, it's more about respect. Because the point is that it's not respectful. And it's not and no one wants it. It's unwanted attention in a sexual context as well. That's just not okay. And the other thing that I've noticed, by the way, you mentioned that whole theory about the slut versus...

The virginal, the Madonna whore. Yeah, exactly. So I did a talk about sexism to a bunch of rabbis a while ago. And these were young men, all in their 20s, they're training to be rabbis, And we're talking about sexism. And, you know, I could tell that they and I don't mean to be I'm not trying to shame them. It wasn't about them being rabbis, by the way. It was just a room full of young men. their mind at the back of their mind right here, you know, somewhere at the back of their mind, they, they saw a difference between their wife to someone who is dressing, uh, slutty.

She doesn't deserve the same respect as their wife. So if I'm catcalling her, it's legit because she was dressed the way she was dressed. So she should have expected it, whatever. But my wife, who is a modest woman who's dressed properly, she's the mother of my children. You're not going to that's not OK. So my point is, like men have made this kind of like this adjustment in their brains to say that they, they agree that catcalling isn't okay, but to their wives, to their mothers, to their daughters, but not to, let's say me, who's walking down the street with a, you know, whatever.

They don't know me. I'm wearing a dress, whatever. That's okay. Someone you don't know. So they know that catcalling is not okay. They know. They've just made it. They've made an arrangement in their head that's allowed it to certain type of women, right? These are type of women that in their minds do not deserve respect. But I feel like as humans, we all deserve respect. It doesn't matter what you wear. It doesn't matter who you are, you know, and beyond that, you are someone's mother or daughter or sister or whatever. So it's like you always see when guys, this is a massive stereotype,

but, you know, typically when they get involved in discussions, it's like as a father to daughters. And it's like, you don't need to have daughters to not want us to be murdered. Let's take it back. You mentioned gender reveals. So I didn't do a gender reveal but i did the whole like popping a pink cannon um i did it with alf as well with the blue one mainly because we're in lockdown and we wanted to like try and celebrate to our families when we let them know what we were having it's really hard one for me because i get the whole like stereotyping,

you know, I'm not like, hey, Alf, you're a boy, here's a truck. Like, you know, he loves dolls. He dresses like in different colors. I avoid buying clothes with prey, like predators on them, like the sharks and the dinosaurs until there's a day if he's like,

hey, mom, I love dinosaurs. And of course I'll be like, he's expressed an interest. Let's go crazy on the dinosaur thing. But how do we do the gender reveal? Because here's my thing is like, it is different raising a son to raising a daughter because we don't live in that utopian world of equality yet.

And actually there's conversations that I'll have to have with my son that was so different. The conversations I'll have with my daughter. And I was so excited to find out I was going to be a girl mom not because I'm like yay I get to do ballet with her and we get to you know watch Disney princess films because I know I could do those with Alf if he wanted to and in the same way like my sister is the biggest football head my brother doesn't care about football so I know that yes you know if Tommy dreams of having a footballer child it could be our daughter that ends up being the footballer child but I was so excited to have a daughter and felt like I wanted to celebrate

that because I was like all of these lessons that I've learned as a woman I can't wait to be able to like share that wisdom with a daughter but how could I have done the gender reveal I called it a sex reveal but how could I have done that without the pink and blue I don't know I don't know I don't know I didn't do uh we didn't do it at all because I just didn't feel the need to do it at all but I know a lot of people like doing uh gender sex reveal yeah because I always see that on social it's like gender reveals are so outdated and I'm like yeah but what if we want to like celebrate that I don't know I don't know yeah how do you find as a mum now that your girls are older

that obviously you're making a point to raise strong independent girls and trying to make them aware of sexism but there must be like an element of it's so ingrained into school culture. Yeah. So how do you deal with that? Don't even like get me started on that. That's it's so it's so difficult. You know, we we obviously moved now where we live in Portugal at the moment. And we had incidents as well with the school in England.

But it's like you said, it's not even specifically about the school. It's not a school. It's the whole system. And I've already encountered so much of it. Yeah, it's very, very difficult. It's very challenging. This will make you laugh. But the only way for me to handle it here and what I've been doing, I was like, I've just become far more involved in the school than I ever wanted to

be. I'm not the PTA mom. Like I'm so not that person, but the only way for me to deal with it is to go, right. I'm here. I've got suggestions. Yes. I'm that annoying mom, but like, like I'm, I don't really think I'm an annoying mom. I think it's amazing. And they should be really grateful that people put up their time like and want to make things better. But the thing is, you'll be amazed. There's a real lack of awareness. There really is. It always surprises me. Yeah, I just think we're so used to it. I think it is the biggest brainwash of our society. Or maybe people don't care. I don't know.

But I've just gotten much more involved. And there's other parents like me who are quite passionate. So we're just trying to get involved. And is that kind of fighting the boys will be boys narrative? Yeah, that too. But also sometimes it's subtle. It's more subtle than that. Because I think people hopefully know better than that now.

But it's along those lines. You know, they had a piece of homework. I'll give you one example. They had a piece of homework sent home and they had jobs, you know, professions. Right. So they had to translate it from a different language. The men were the scientists, the engineers, the judges, the lawyers, the doctors, right? And the women were ballerinas, cheerleaders, actress, nurse, and nothing wrong with any

of those jobs. But you see where I'm going, right? The men's jobs were higher earnings, jobs that have much more influence on infrastructure, on lawmaking, on anything, you know? And I mean, it was so obvious to me. I stared at it. I was like, no way this is actually sent home in 2022. But yeah.

And I think a lot of things just go under the radar. And also, this will also make you laugh. one of my daughters picked up on it as well. And we were chatting about it. And I said to her, like, I wonder if we can find better pictures to give them, to help them to create a better, a better piece of homework. So we Googled pilot right on the internet to try and find images of women pilots. And of course, three pages on google

came up with just men pilots we had to actually write female or woman pilots to see and the same happened with judge and the same happened so you know so so it's it's you have to actively like it's not even like be aware you have to be like actively it's not even like be aware. You have to be like actively. It's crazy. I think because I did grow up with all these stereotypes, but I really noticed a change in the books and the, you know, super simple songs. It's like this YouTube channel.

I noticed that there is really positive change. So there's a book series called, so it'd be like, where's Mrs. Astronaut? And then you go throughout the book and it's like, where's Mrs. Engineer? Where's Mr. mr doctor and they are all different genders but also i really see this morning we were watching this song it's like i mean it's so annoying but it goes like look at me sitting on the party and i was noticing like oh wow they've got same-sex parents single parents and it's not a thing it's not like

there's the gay couple it was like they're just there subliminally like showing that family looks different and I was like this is really cool because it didn't exist when I was young you know you didn't see stuff like that so for Alf hopefully it's just really normal that he he witnesses that I agree and you're right the. There's so much stuff coming out now. And even for my kids' ages, that is, yeah, it's great. Like you're like, oh, that's fantastic. Someone thought about it. And I do agree.

I like it when it's not like obvious. They don't push it at you. It's just there, you know, because you see a different world and you see a world and that's exactly it. Just like we were brainwashed and we got used to seeing things and rape culture was just part of the culture growing up with movies like Grease and songs like, you know, baby, it's cold out there or whatever, you know, the more we see content that's just different, you know, the more we see content that's just different, you know,

our eye will get used to it and it'll hopefully detangle this horrendous spray washing. I don't know. It blows my mind now. I used to love rap music and I still love like rap, but I find it really hard to listen to like the sexist lyrics that I just used to take for granted. And I remember I even went through a phase of being like, yeah, I'm a feminist, but I also love like really sexist rap music so kill me and now I've got to a point where I'm like I can't even listen to it but also it's controversial when Megan Thee Stallion and Cardi B sing about I don't know whatever they sing about that's really overtly sexual and it's like and

people lose their minds about it but I'm like but now it's equal so if you don't want guys to sing about blowjobs then yeah like if you don't want guys to sing about blowjobs, then like if you don't want guys to sing about people going down on them, then you shouldn't expect men to sing about blowjobs. Like it's literally the same thing. But anyway, one thing, final thing because I could talk to you for so long about so many things. And I feel like we've basically just had a chit chat,

but obviously lots of people listening are new moms. and in that new mom or moms to be stage. What would be your advice as a veteran mom of navigating relationships and the changes that come with relationships? to any, you know, young parents or first time parents or at the beginning of that journey, honestly, is accept any help that is offered to you. If you have family that can help, if you have friends who have offered to take your kids for the night, if you've had, if you can afford hired help,

any help, honestly, like I, cause I, and especially for first time and especially for moms, there's this kind of really wanting to do it all yourself and do it all yourself. And if you can, and it's not coming with an enormous price where you feel like you're about to, you know, you, you can't take it anymore than you go girl. But like, if, if it's coming with a price and you feel like you're falling apart, there's no need for you to fall apart. You're, you're a really great parent. If you say I need help and you accept help that's offered. And I feel like that's, you know, I, I, I really appreciated

it when people said that to me at the beginning, especially with the twins, when it was so difficult and I did need help. I look back now, I'm sad that it was such a, that it was so hard because I feel like it did rob me of any kind of nice moments, but I do not regret for one minute, the amount of help that we had. I know it was completely needed. What other advice would you give to moms who are maybe like struggling? In terms of relationships, sorry, cause I didn't, uh, point on that. Um, me and my husband had a few really tough years actually after the, you know,

after becoming parents, because again, you sort of lose so much of you, we lost so much of us. And we actually a bit like you, I think didn't have a very long romance and relationship before we had babies. So we didn't have like the, Oh, five years of like doing loads of things. Just the two of us. We didn't have that at all. We had a year, I think just over a year, a year and a half. I can't remember now, but like not a lot of time at all. So really our relationship is kind of, it feels like it's always been with children. Um, and I find that really tough. Like that's really, really hard.

When they were quite small, I think when they were about two, I just turned when the twins were, I think nearly three, I had turned 40 and we decided to do this massive trip to Vegas, just the two of us. And I was, again, not even sure I was going to get on that plane because I, I was like, no, like, what am I doing? This is crazy. But Mike sort of said, no, we really need this. Like we really, really need to go.

I think at that point, I didn't even know if we would survive. Like if our relationship would, would survive because there was no relationship. It was like, hand me the thing. Where are the wet wipes? You're annoying me. Like it was just this constant barking at each other and just, you know, it was just not good. And I have to say, not to say that that trip changed everything. We went back, we came back and we still barked at each other. Right. But my point is that in those five days, when the kids were so far and on a different time zone,

and that is key because you can't call them even if you want to. That was really key. Right. I sort of went, Oh God, I remember why I like this guy. Like I suddenly remembered him. You know what I mean? We sat across the table. Instead of the logistics. And I kind of went oh yeah you're funny oh i remember this you know and it was like it was like i was starting getting to know him again without the babies without the kids without the diapers without you know the

to-do list and i think we we then after that decided to just make sure that we have those moments so that we we we've done a few of these trips, not as far as Vegas, but we have done like these, you know, let's go for a couple of nights. Let's, you know, and again, it's not always easy because you don't always have enough people in your life to that you trust with your kids. But we go to Israel once a year to visit my parents and we always leave the kids with my mom for a few nights.

Like we always do that. So try to find the times that you can be not mommy and daddy, but just you guys, the way you were, you know, without the children. And any other, any other final words that you wish maybe you could tell yourself as a new mom?

Well, I was going to say, remember to lock your door if you do have sex and your child is in the house i honestly absolutely love chatting to you i feel like i could have talked to you about so so many topics but um i'm absolutely bursting for a week go go go second time pregnancy pelvic floor it's not the one. Like I was about to say I've got messages from a listener but

I'm sorry guys I literally cannot do it today but Topher thank you so much for coming on and chatting and guys thank you for listening as well to Mums the World Parenting Podcast don't forget all of the stuff I say every week but hit subscribe and follow button so you don't miss an episode

and if you want to get in touch, I promise you my pelvic floor will hopefully be better. This is karma as well for eating all of our chocolate. So send a WhatsApp message if you want,

a voice message on WhatsApp. And the number is 075-999-27537 or of course, email out at askmumsthewordpod at gmail.com or you can leave a review on Apple Podcasts. And Tova, what's your Instagram for those who want to find you? It's Tova underscore we.

So I'm going to put that in the blurb below as well. And I'll be back with another episode, same time, same place next week. Thank you so much. We'll see you next time. Peloton Tread has workouts you can work in. Or bring your classes with you for outdoor runs, walks, and hikes led by expert instructors on the Peloton app. Call yourself a runner. Peloton All Access Membership Separate. Learn more at onepeloton.ca slash running.