Mum's The Word! The Parenting Podcast - Parental Separation - YOU AREN'T ALONE with TheBreakingDad

Episode Date: July 9, 2023

Daniel Betts, aka The Breaking Dad joins us to chat all things coparenting and blended families, including how to navigate coparenting, how to introduce children in blended families and juggling children in full time work. You can find Daniel at www.thebreakingdad.co.ukGet in touch with us over at [e-mail]---A Create Podcast Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

right this week we have blogger the breaking dad aka daniel bett dan who is father to evie and stepdad to tilly and liza as well he uses platform to share more about co-parenting and blended families so others in the same position don't feel so alone it's a brilliant service that you're doing dan and he's here right now. Hi, Dan. Hi, thanks so much for having me. No problem. Thank you so much for coming on today. How are you doing?

Yeah, good, thank you. You're good. Very good. A bit of a sweat box in my living room from the sunshine outside. It's nice though, isn't it? It's nice, isn't it? Well, that and a bit of rain, you know. We should get right into it then, because Dan, you and Evie's mum separated when she

was two years old. You've been navigating co-parenting ever since then. How have you found it? What made you decide to start this blog and what's the journey been? Yeah, so four years ago we separated and something I really, really struggled with was coming to terms with the idea that I wasn't going to be living with my daughter full time anymore. So rather than looking at what I gained from that process, which is much more kind of one-to-one time, it was 50% of the time, but 50% of the time I had 100% of the say of how I raised my daughter. I struggled more on what I didn't have anymore. The fact that I couldn't say goodnight to my daughter every night. And I used to lay in the bed next to her every night and she went to sleep and kiss her goodnight. And I couldn't do that all of a sudden.

So I went into a bit of a downward spiral with that. I just was so focused on that. And the fact that I didn't see an out to that situation, it was never going to change. The separation was the separation and I was never going to live with my daughter again. So I went in this downward spiral for a while and it got progressively worse until about six months later, where it really came to a head because I was worrying about Christmas and the idea that I wasn't going to share Christmas with my daughter. Oh yeah, it's the occasions, isn't it? And it's the pressure of people being together and everything's meant to be happy and everything's meant to be perfect.

There's so much pressure on those occasions. Yeah, and it's so interesting because I was going through, I was working with somebody who was going through a process of grief having lost her husband. And what I was going through was nothing like the severity of what she was going through. But the feelings we were experiencing were very similar. It was that feeling of mourning what wasn't anymore. Yeah.

And the first, the first situation, the first birthday that she had without us being together was the August. And that was a struggle. And the idea of Christmas felt that much. I don't know why, but it's just that family time. But anyway, it came and it was brilliant. We had a lovely time and it worked. And although the interaction I was having with her mum was very fractious at the time,

it was about the height of as difficult as it would get. The time I had with my daughter over Christmas and my mum and going to her house for that Christmas was amazing because I was out of the situation I wasn't particularly happy in with my ex and her family. So Christmas came and went. And then in that January, I thought, I need to pour my efforts into something more productive

because I really felt like it was very difficult as a dad to try and fight my corner no one wanted to fight my corner it was all about mums which is you know and you hear all these stories about dads who aren't interested dads who disappeared dads who have no time for their kids and are only interested in themselves giving everyone a bad rep really for it I guess absolutely and what I started to see was there's a lot of dads out there who desperately wanted more than anything to be with their kids and to spend time and actually their ex-partners were making things as difficult as they could to make that happen and putting blockers in the way and that's what I was experiencing. Yeah. So I started that page as a bit of a positive outlet to share the journey that I was going through and to just be bloody

honest about it because everybody puts on social media how great their lives are but actually behind that Instagram veil at the time you know it was only Instagram that I was using behind that veil lots of people are going through the same stuff and when I started posting that stuff I found that there was this huge community of people that went I needed to hear that that's what I'm feeling but I don't feel confident enough to say it. And that's how that was born really. Yeah, I mean, it's like the guts of the relationship is being like poured out and like,

it's the real stuff that people can cling onto, isn't it? And they can relate to it. And then they're like, oh good, it's not just me that it's happening to. Cause you haven't divorced the child or separated from the child, you separated from the parent. And it's like trying to get to the new normal I guess in your life and you're and you're right saying the firsts and everything once they're done they're done you're

like we've got over that hurdle and there was a moment for me that resonated I've always remembered it since I've been doing the page for about a year and I've got a mess I used to talk about things I was struggling with. So it might be the obstacles that my daughter's mum was putting in the way at the time or all of these things. I talk about those struggles. But very consciously never bad mouth my daughter's mum because she's going through her own stuff, right?

And she has her reasons for doing it. I just happen to disagree with them. So there's always two perspectives. But one mum reached out to me and said, oh, I've been following your page. It's mostly mums that follow the page. And one mum reached out and said, I've been following your page for a while

and I saw this stuff you said about that. And it made me realise what my ex was going through. And when I started to understand what he was feeling, I started to empathize. And then we ended up talking and then we ended up getting back together and our families back together. And that's because of you. And I remember that one message made all of that time investment so worthwhile because it allowed people who didn't necessarily understand what dads are going through to start to empathize with it. Yeah, lovely that that can see can be seen from that side as well that mums can look at it and go oh do you know what maybe i might have overreacted

in that situation and that's how he may have felt on the other side of that how lovely that they get to see that as well and equally you know i get to see that from a mum's side you know which you wouldn't necessarily get to so it's a two-way street that one it's not just you know woe is me the dad you get to see it from both sides you know do you get feedback as well from mums saying actually you're wrong there this is what this is about or do you there was there was one instance where um something had happened relating to when my daughter went to school and i fell into the trap of letting my emotions get the better of me. And I posted a question on Instagram saying, do you think this situation is right or wrong that she's done? Because I felt very wronged. And it was something like 99% of the respondents

all said, so wrong, can't believe she's done that. That's awful. One person sent me a message saying, I think you posting that on here to expose her is just cyber bullying and it's disgusting. And I thought, do you know what? You're absolutely right. All I'm doing is exposing someone who has perfect rationale for doing something. But what I've done there is not actually, it completely goes against the values of what I set out to do here. So since then, I never post anything around the details of arguments. In fact, they don't happen that much anymore. But in those days, I never do that anymore because I realised that actually

if she was to see that, then what I've done is tried to corral a group of people against, you know, her, she's anonymous, but still. Yeah. Wasn't a particularly kind thing to do in retrospect. So that was quite a life lesson you know yeah and you're learning while you're doing this as well I mean it's it's hard I feel like it's harder these days with posting stuff online there is a there is a cancel culture that I know puts a lot of fear into people who do put a lot of you know their work into online

into Instagram into socials or you know blogging or anything like that. Have you noticed a shift? Are you a bit more worried when you post things these days or do you just go with how you're feeling? Do you know what? I've never worried about what I post online and I've never really had problems with trolls or issues that come online because I always try specifically to keep it balanced. So there's an important thing that I think parents need to do.

And I see this a lot with separated parents, moms and dads. So they go on and they'll criticize the ex and they'll do this. I think it doesn't help anybody. And I remember when I saw a mediator in the early days and she said to me, you know, all you're trying to do is win arguments. And actually you're right in what you're saying is factually correct but what you're doing is polarizing two sides and then you'll never you all you're going to do is make it harder to get on again so i made a quite a deliberate decision to not criticize her to not raise you know put out my

dirty laundry but just give honest feedback on my feelings rather than specifics of the situation. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So how you're feeling, because then you can't be, you know, criticized, you can't be wrong because it's your feelings and they're valid within that. You're part of a blended family now

with your partner, Rosie. You introduced your children to each other first, of course. How did that happen? How long did you, or did you put a time on it? Did you think, right, well, let's do six months or let's do three months or however. Did you put a time on it? Did you think, right, well, let's do six months

or let's do three months or however, did you put a time on it or did it just happen naturally? It was a weird one because when you look back retrospectively, you always think this time feels like forever and it actually wasn't that long

until we introduced the kids. It was about six months. We introduced Rosie and Evie first because I'd been separated with Evie's mum for longer than Rosie had been separated with her children's dad. And I remember being really stressed on that day because it was just a huge amount of anticipation because everything's riding on that, you know.

Evie is everything to me. So if she didn't like her, what am I going to do now? And it went beautifully. They got on really well. And we left it a few more months. We introduced each other to each other's kids first so then i started spending time with tilly and liza at rosie's flat and got to know those kids and it was halloween it was actually the it's coming up to halloween for god must be uh three years ago three years ago and we went um we took the kids pumpkin picking over in oxford

and it was their first interaction with each other and from the moment they got there they were like best mates they loved it and they always have been as well so they bicker yeah with which i think with the dynamic of three kids they were siblings you know they're in a house they're in a situation all siblings bicker don't they and that's it that's it and the only the only visible uh sign of evie struggling was it with it was the first time we went to rosie's flat to play with the girls and she had this almighty strop and it's the only time i've ever had to to discipline her because she's the most easy child going you know she's so relaxed and she's so stress-free to look after. And I remember

she was sat on the naughty step and she was so stressed. And then we're having a conversation. I said, what's bothering you? She's only little at the time, four. And she said to me, I'm just nervous. And I remember thinking, oh, that was such a nice, you know, she's very emotionally aware for such a little person. Yeah. she's recognised that feeling and she knows she's been able to voice it. Yeah. Oh, bless her. And that sort of manifests itself in butterflies in her tummy and stuff like that. Her physical response to her emotional feelings is quite severe.

You see her physically when she's stressing. So she gets butterflies in her tummy and a bit of a tummy ache if she's nervous. Yeah, that was the only time. And then other than that, they're good as gold they they bicker like siblings like you say um but they love each other to bits is it good do you think because you had an activity do you would you recommend you know with the first meeting of not to just throw in the room together and go right here you go here you go guys maybe plan a an activity that they can get involved with. A hundred percent. So it was, for me, it was about, well, for both of us, actually,

it was about creating a neutral space. Coming to my house where that was Evie's domain, her toys, or going to their house where it was their domain and their toys, that felt like immediately you're putting a lot of pressure on the on the outsider to try and feel like an insider whereas if you go to a shared experience they're experiencing that together and the nice thing about that about pumpkin picking for us was a it was very physical they're doing things together you know it's teamwork pushing the wheelbarrow around putting pumpkins in but then that's become an annual tradition we've done every year since so that's almost like a marker of here's another year as a family yeah you know it's one of those things we

we always do now hopefully and then how does it work now with christmas and occasions and birthdays and things like that is it is it the classic you went there last year you go here this year it's so hard that bit even as bit. Even when you're together as parents, the whole Christmas at one, Christmas at the other, it stresses me out thinking about it from January, to be honest. Yeah, it's so true. So we were very lucky with timetables. So in order to get, I wanted at least 50% of my time with Evie.

I wanted as much as possible, to be honest. 50 was just the kind of arbitrary number everyone places, but I just wanted as much as possible. I ended up changing jobs to get to that 50% because I wanted a job that was flexible. And we established that timetable. And the beautiful thing was, as that was going on, Rosie was just in the process of establishing her timetable

and what she did with her ex so we ended up getting the kids on the same schedule which was it was an absolute game changer because it means when they're with us we're all together when we're apart we're all apart so that worked really well and we applied the same rules for christmas and birthdays and things like that which is so one parent will have them have them until 2 o'clock Christmas Day and the other person will have them then from 2 o'clock Christmas and Christmas Eve. And the other person will have them from 2 o'clock right the way through

to the 27th usually and have a couple of days solid. So what that means is one person gets the excitement of opening the presents and one person gets Christmas lunch. And you still get that Christmas, sense of Christmas as a family, even if it means that it's a little bit split. It's so strange that we put so much pressure on the Christmas thing, isn't it? I'm only just realising really that everything centres

around that, doesn't it? It's because of the pure excitement of it all and you know it's a special time for kids and you know it's memories that you have looking back on childhood that Christmas was such a big thing and it's memories that you have looking back on childhood that christmas was such a big thing and it's so scary that that can happen yeah and birthdays it's the same so i tend to find the weekend the week the year sorry i don't have evie until two o'clock i'll spend the whole morning just getting everything we'll have balloons up and you

know we'll just go to town i'm making it really excited for when she gets there but the trade-off is you get her from two o'clock when she's really tired and she's already had a really kind of a day or sensory overstimulating morning yeah yeah and then on the other side you've got you'll put them to bed at say seven o'clock and you've only got a few hours to prep because then you know you've only got a very short period in the morning to make most of it. So we sort of find that that's the best solution at the moment. I'm sure it will change over the years, but at the moment, that's what works for everybody and it seems to be what the kids enjoy.

So that's kind of how it works for us. And how does it work, obviously, because there's Rosie's side as well with her ex and your side. Do you all get together to talk about stuff or is it you very much deal with your side, Rosie deals with her side side and then you meet somewhere in the middle yeah I mean I think it's I can see it changing now that it's been a few years it's sort of easing up so I get on quite well with Rosie's Rosie's ex so the children's dad so when I see him I come and have a chat with him at the door it's nice and friendly and yeah I think as time goes on it will become a lot easier um when it comes to dealing with

Evie's mom I take care of all of that I deal with that side of the arrangement um just purely because historically that was the more challenging scenario to deal with he was very relaxed in terms of what he does and doesn't do this This side was not necessarily so relaxed, but actually having said that over the years, you know, that's, we get on brilliantly now and things are much, much easier. So, you know, it's just almost like a legacy from the more challenging days. Yeah, of course.

And does everybody live nearby? Is that something that really helps with that situation? Everybody sort of being just, you know, distance wise, actually being close yeah it's funny so when so I moved away so where I live now is a place called Yateley and we moved about half an hour away when I was with my daughter's mum to Basingstoke before we separated and then she moved back to Yateley with Evie so I used to do an hour round trip school run pickups and all that stuff it was an absolute nightmare i was stuck in the

mortgage a long fixed mortgage then i met rosie who lived in camberley which is right next to yately and she moved over to basingstoke with me and she was doing the same trip to schools and stuff like that um so we moved in december back to yately so we're right around three or four minutes away from her mom evie's mom and um rosie's ex lives in finer which is about 25 minutes away from her mum, Evie's mum. And Rosie's ex lives in Farnham, which is about 25 minutes away. So it's not far, far enough. It's difficult, but it's not, it's manageable. Yeah, of course. So it's looking at your situation, you know, with job wise, can it be changed? Can you move that? Can you make the situation easier for yourself and for everyone? I guess if someone's looking at, you know, starting that journey of divorce and getting

into all that, maybe like looking if there are any changes that can be made, I guess if someone's looking at you know starting that journey of divorce and getting into all that maybe like looking if there are any changes that can be made I guess is what I'm trying to say in that situation yeah I mean that the big one was changing career to allow for flexibility because to start with I just didn't feel like that was an option because I worked so hard to get to where I was in the current company that was in. And then when you take a step back, you go, well, what is this all for? You know, what is this all for? Yeah, okay, so I've got a job that's going quite well. But actually, as it transpires, the job I'm in now turned out to be much better for me career-wise.

So taking that decision to go, do you know what? There's more important things in life than a bit of money. Then, you know, actually it worked out for the best and we got the best of both worlds. But it's making sure the children always come first. One thing I'm really painfully conscious of is they're only going to be little for such a short period of time. And, you know, when they're 16, 17, 18, I don't want anything to do with us anymore because they're all grown up.

You know, that's the point where I can worry about my career, you know? Yeah, I know. I always, there was something I saw quite early on of um lasts and you not knowing when the last is and you know there'll be a last time that you read them that story there's a last time that you pick them up physically and sometimes I'm just like if I remember that on a day I'm like I could barely get through a day I'm like oh god give me a hug I need another hug just in case yeah there was a stat i heard i can't remember um where it came from but it was something like seven i posted it on the account actually there's something like 75 of the time you spend with your child will be by

the time they're 12 and you think oh my goodness what do you think you can imagine it right because you're with them all the time i mean even on a shared schedule when i'm with them i'm always with them and then to think they'll be grown up and off living their lives and yeah it took me a long time to sort of get into that routine of being needed so much when when my little boy came along and I do remember just thinking god this is like I have no time but then when I do get a day to myself I'm like god I don't know what to do because you are needed so much how did that how did that work for you going from one child to three all of a sudden

well so so my daughter's mum had a child from a previous relationship so I was 24 when I met her and I was a bit older than that 25 and her daughter's dad wasn't involved so I went from being single bloke living on my own you know fairly comfortable to suddenly I'm in an environment where I'm a full-time dad and there was a moment for me where the penny dropped where I realized there's never going to be a break again there's no there's no respite ever again and I remember thinking you know I remember really going what have I done you know I loved it but at the same time thinking oh my god this is life now and so Evie came along fairly soon after so um Evie's mum fell pregnant nine months after we'd met and so obviously then she came along a year and a half later ish and going from one to two was that next shock of going or where we used to have a

break when she was having a nap now the other one's awake yeah um so I sort of lived through that with my daughter's mum and then came back and and what I found really strange was coming away from that situation um and when we separated she didn't want me to see her oldest daughter anymore for reasons I weren't going to. But she – Evie started coming to me and it was just one-on-one time. So that felt easy, you know, and somebody else, two of us. So it's a bit like this. And then obviously bringing the other two into the mix, it's a little bit like chaos because you've gone from one to three again.

So I think one thing we do to try to mitigate that is that we'll quite, although we focus on a lot of family time as a unit, one thing I try to do is take time away with Evie. So we have lots of that one-on-one time that she was used to, because otherwise she feels like she's missing out. And to be honest,

I feel like I'm missing out a little bit because that was really special time for us. And it's fair for you to want that time as well, isn't it? I think it's sort of you maybe would feel like you'd have to put a brave face on it and say, right, it's all of us now. And it has to be all of us all the time. But actually, it's OK to want to spend time with your child and do things together, isn't it? It's OK to and to say that, too, but I mean, it's a hard thing to say, I guess. It is because it's a constant, a constant question of fairness and what's right and what's wrong. And the reality is there is no, and that's something I've really had to work hard

to accept is there's no such thing as a right and wrong in parenting. So what works for one family won't work for another. And for us, I rosie really appreciates her time with her girls because with just the two of them they get on beautifully and with evie and one of the other girls get on beautifully second you get three into the mix there's always that one that sort of either mixes up the game or it doesn't want to play the same way and then then it all sort of descends into to madness so having that ability to take evie out of the equation with me and we go and spend some time with us, to be honest, there's an element of it, which I suspect is me trying to hold on to. She was my absolute crutch when I was falling apart. That's what I was here for.

So I really valued that time and I still value that time with her because we had such a lovely time. We've got such a close bond. And I guess it's part of me wanting to maintain that with her. Of course. Baffled, the Daily Factor podcast bringing you some amazing facts that are complete nonsense. In the 19th century, experts warned women about a disease called bicycle face, which meant getting stuck with the awkward faces they make while bicycling. Giraffes. To know when to mate, the man will continuously headbutt

the female in the bladder. Manatees control how much they float by farting. You can find us wherever you got this podcast. Just search for Baffled Amazing Facts. How do you juggle having the three kids now and work what do you set out each week and do you go right i mean child care for one and all the rest of it that comes into it it's just such a juggle normally anyway but now having you know another two kids in the equation too

what does your week look like how do you how do you work it out between you and rosie so it works quite well, actually. We both work from home. And what we tend to do is on, well, we have the girls every Wednesday and Thursday, and then every other Wednesday, Thursday, Friday, Saturday, Sunday, through to Monday morning. So it's quite consistent on the Wednesday and Thursday. So I'll always go and get Evie on the Wednesday from school. My work's flexible enough that I can finish, knock off for a bit and then just make the time up in the evening. So that's what I've always done.

So then I'll take Evie to a swimming lesson and Rosie will get her girls. And then we'll all have dinner together. And then I've got a rule where the phones go on the shelf at five o'clock because when you're working, you're necessarily checking your phone for stuff going on. Even just tapping it. Do I find myself just tapping it sort of mindlessly? I'm not even looking at it really. I'm just tapping it.

It's just bizarre. Like it becomes a thing that just naturally happens and you're like, oh God, I wasn't even looking at my phone. Yeah, and I talked about something on the Instagram account recently where I looked at the kids sat with their iPads and they don't like using their screens much, but at this moment in time, they were the kids sat with their iPads and they don't like using their screens much, but at this moment in time, they were all sat there with their iPads and I'm sat there with my phone. I thought, this is too much. They're all just on devices. I'm on

devices. This has got to change. So I said to the girls, right, from five o'clock, I'm going to put my phone on the bookshelf. Evie, you're in're in charge take my phone go put it away from now until bedtime no distractions and then I'll pick up on the work stuff later so anyway I did that and the next day when I said right time to put the phone on the shelf Evie got my phone she got her Nintendo switch and her iPad and she went and put them on the shelf and said right no screen time daddy daddy. This is our time. And that for me was like, it was the most lovely message because what it shows you is that as parents, we're hypocrites. We'll go, oh, get off your phone, get off your iPad,

get off this device and fed up with you always being on that. Just give me a second. I've just got to reply to this message. And, you know, I see it all the time and I'm guilty of it. And actually just leading by example sometimes is half the battle. And it shows that she had enjoyed that time with you too, that she wanted it to happen the next day. I know Ashley who, you know,

I'm filling in for her at the moment. She's off on maternity leave. She's been doing a bit of less screen time with Alfie. She put it on her Instagram recently. And do you know what? It just coincided with the same week that we were trying to do that with our little one because he wakes up in the morning. He's two in September but he wakes up he opens

his eyes and he goes Dougie like that and you're like my god would none of us have woken up yet and he will literally the first words that come out of his mouth are Dougie and it's all day long if he can get to it and it becomes an absolute battle because living in London as well you know we're not in a massive place, but you have to go through where the telly is to go to the kitchen, to go outside or anything like that. There's no avoiding it really. And there's no avoiding it anyway in life these days, you know, it's everywhere. It's everywhere. So we were going away last week and when we got to the place we were staying, we just didn't show him the telly. We didn't see it either. And actually,

to the place we were staying. We just didn't show him the telly. We didn't see it either. And actually, do you know what? We had such a lovely week. He was a much, he was less angry. He was less, and it's just, you know, when you're like, oh no, it's true.

Less screen time does work well for them. So I think trying to imply that, and I know Ashley, she's found with Little Alf as well, that it's helped her, especially with the new one coming along recently. I think COVID was the absolute game changer for me because that was just after I started this account actually. And yeah, I started that in January. In March, we're in lockdown.

So I'm living completely on my own with no connections. So I'm living half an hour away from all my friends and stuff like that. I couldn't see them, couldn't do anything. I was just alone. And then when I had Evie, we didn't want to just sit and watch tv all the time there's only so much even if you even if you let them watch it there's only so much they can take yeah after a while they do walk away yeah so in that time i thought right we're stuck at home we're going to make the most of this by doing as many activities as we can. And do you know what?

I look back at that time so fondly because it was such an eye-opener to realise that you can, you know, one of the games they still love playing now is I get a load of masking tape and I make lasers across there, you know, like Mission Impossible style lasers fall through. That's one of their favourite games to play. Or, you know, we get all the cushions off the sofas and we make cushion land and they have to just jump into the cushions off the sofas and we make cushion land and they have to just jump into the cushions and you think they're such innocuous random games but

they're the ones that you remember as an adult when you look back on your childhood it won't be the uh the the yeah for the girls at the moment if well spirit and any of these horse programs they love all the princess stuff barbie you know it won't be that stuff that they look back and remember fondly it'll be the silly games we played yeah it's always those ones isn't it it's incredible uh also tips for keeping romance alive because there's now three kids in your life it's a lot busier there's a lot of kids around at different times and obviously if you're having the kids at certain times and then you're having the other two are they are they always with you the other two or how does it work no so they're on that same shared are they on the same one of course

like you said so you managed to work that into it so how has it been trying to keep the romance alive do you know it's it's good actually so something i talk about a lot so one thing parents always say is oh you're so lucky you get that five day break, you know, when it's the five days away from your kids. So yeah, it's brilliant when you've got your kids full time at home and you choose to have that break. But it's not so great when you don't have a say as to whether you don't see your children for five days. That's when it's rubbish. And I've always really struggled with that gap. So every two weeks, there's a five-day stint where I don't see them at all. And usually other than that, it's a day or two. So I used to find that that would really affect my mood.

I'd get really down. So what we used to do is go camping or go on adventures, go somewhere random, go and do a 20-kilometer walk somewhere and just get out. And for us, for our relationship start that time is crucial because it's when we just chew the fat and feel like as close to normal as you can feel when your children aren't there yeah because that's the thing it's like your high is when the kids are there and then you're you sort of start this low point when they go and you sort of have to try and find a way back up to as close to that feeling as possible um and and yeah it's just making time for each other you know and being supportive of each other i mean we've we've

it's not always easy because life gets in the way and what we tend to find is that i have a rule in our house which is have fun be silly have fun make mess that's that's the rules for the kids and i said every time you ask any of our kids they'll be able to tell you the rules straight away but what that means is that we put chores we put life on hold while we're with the kids you know their dad jobs mowing the lawn all that stuff can wait we've got the kids now we're gonna have fun and then when they go we'll catch up so what that means is when the kids go back we've got chaos to try and unpick and bring back more and more. So if we don't take the time to spend time together and to kind of appreciate each other,

then very quickly we can fall into a rut of, you know, arguing or whatever. So we have to be very mindful of that and make sure we have lots of time together to just appreciate the other person and what they do. I mean, Rosie's brilliant. The way that she kind of keeps on top of everything in the house, it keeps us all organised. It's just, we'd be stuffed without her kind of keeping control.

Have those rules ever backfired on you though? Because I'm just thinking make mess. That one for me is making me panic already, to be honest. Yeah. Have you ever come back and there's writing on the wall and they're like, you said make mess. Yeah not quite that extreme but um yeah i mean definitely so one of the things we do is we try to make everything a game so although we like them to make mess by the end of the day what we generally say is that now it's time to tidy up they've got little chore cards and they

can earn their little um what we used to do is is give them little stickers and stuff and now since they've got their go henry accounts we give them 20p and for them they've got no concept of money so 20p to them is like a life-changing amount of money and you say to them that when you do your chores and you don't you're on top of everything you've tied it up you get your 20p in your account and you can you can save that towards your toys do they have a little card as well, a little physical card on the... Yeah. Oh, my God, that's nuts. And they love that because, I mean, they hardly ever spend the money

and it's the biggest con going because they save up their money, they go and spend that money, but then I end up never getting that money back because it's always my money. So they end up keeping that saving account growing the whole time. It's my money getting spent because I don't want to use their money. And they've never actually used the money, they say. They're sitting on fortunes at the moment. They're just kids in town.

That's hilarious. Yeah, it's amazing. I need to find a scheme like that for me, actually. Spend all the money. But the point is what we try to do is try and make that stuff as fun as possible so when it does come to tidying up we're not trying to teach them just completely disregard everything in the house but just don't worry about it right now this is for having fun it's not about going i guess where that was born from is that i know people that don't let their kids have their toys

downstairs or don't let them or they start playing with nope you're not playing with anything else you've put that away and that's fine if that's what works for you. But for me, I just want them to enjoy it and we'll worry about tidying up later and we'll find a process that works. And over the years, I mean, there have been times where the house has looked like it's been absolutely ransacked and then we've had to kind of go, maybe we need to tighten this wall up a little bit. It's gone down to two rules actually, guys. One of those has been taken out.

Actually, I don't like how silly you're being, so let's just have fun. We've got a question from one of the listeners. It says it's from Evie on email, but I don't believe it's your Evie. This is for Ashley. It says, hey, Ashley, I'm currently going through a divorce with two little girls, but still have family days with my ex. It feels like he's here all the time and I want nothing to do with him.

Would love to hear from someone on any tips for keeping distance when co-parenting, but also not letting my girls miss out. Thanks. Love the pod. That's from Evie. That's a big question. Dan, can you help with that. That's a big question. Dan, can you help with that at all? It is a big question. So I mean, I said earlier, you know, there's no one rule for a relationship and for a family and for certain families that might work for us that doesn't.

So there needs to be a clear divide. So your time with daddy is time with daddy. Your time with mummy is time with mummy. You know, family days aren't something we all do together and actually managing that relationship the way that we found works most effectively when I talk about working with Evie's mum is by and large we just communicate over email and it's very much like a professional relationship you know it's polite it's courteous it's direct there's no emotions and there's no connection there because what happens is or what we found is that when people talk about emotions they think they think it refers to just oh i want you back i love you

and all it's not it's the emotional attachment to what you're saying so the intention of what you're saying and what's behind that message. So being professional and direct and leading with bullet points and clear and concise just means that it minimizes the chance for miscommunication and things to go wrong. And it keeps a very clear delineation between that's that life, that's this life. And there's something that's less, I guess, instant with email. So you can send an email or you can receive an email and you can have time to look at it and to think about it. With WhatsApp, everything is so instant these days, isn't it? And you feel that if, say if a message has been sent on WhatsApp or anything, so you're right. I've just sort of realized that actually WhatsApp wouldn't be a great

communication tool because it'd be like, oh, they've blue ticked, they've read it and you want to get back to them. Or you have that panic, don't you? And you're like, I've, tool because, you know, it'd be like, oh, they've blue ticked, they've read it and, you know, you want to get back to them. Or you have that panic, don't you? And you're like, I've read it now, I'm going to have to get back to them straight away. And you don't feel like you can go, can I take a bit of time to think about this? So email's a great way to start that off. It really helps. I found in the early days, what would happen is one of us would always fly off the handle about something because it's so emotionally charged that time you're hurting. And even if the thing you're arguing about doesn't really matter, it's more about an outlet for how you feel. So what happens is these messages become longer and

longer and you go, well, you've said this, well, actually that's the case. Well, you've said this, well, actually that's the case. You can't do that because these are the rules within, you know, this is what you can do. And it becomes this horrible sort of trap that you fall into just getting more, like I said earlier, polarized. You become more and more angry with each other and don't resolve the situation. So when we transition to being pretty much email only, the occasional text message, but pretty much email only, it just takes all of that away and just allows you to be you know we we get on well we we have a nice chat when we see each other there's nothing there's no animosity whatsoever anymore from my side at least as far hopefully from us who knows

um but the nice thing with that is that it just it gives you that element of here's a the other thing we did as well was created specific email addresses so there's an email address for communicating relating to you and so she's got hers, I've got mine and then we've got the trail of everything that's been said in one place without the distraction of loads of spam email and all that stuff

it's just right there for when we need it and it just helps I think just give a little bit of clarity and distinction to how you communicate. Yeah. OK, so for Evie, the advice from yourself would be, and correct me if I'm wrong, putting in some boundaries, putting in times, specific times when, you know, not just dropping in unannounced and setting up some sort of email communication or some communication that doesn't feel quite as intrusive. doesn't feel quite as intrusive. Yeah. And there's, I mean,

there's some brilliant apps out there that you can look up that have co-parenting kind of, there are a lot of divorce type apps that have co-parenting communication inbuilt within it. So it keeps it within that app. So it's all contained, but allows you to set things

like schedules as well. So, you know, those, I tend to find find or i found certainly that establishing those boundaries and those timetables is where the most emotion comes from because let's be honest it's not convenient for anyone you know that that setup is not convenient for anyone if you're a dad and you work full-time like you know like in my situation i was thinking how can i make this work without needing more childcare? Because you don't want to put your child in more childcare if they could just be with mum. And that was really fractious. And then same on the other side. So they're thinking,

well, hold on a minute, you're telling me I can only do this day and this day, but I need to work that day. But that doesn't work because if you're doing one day on, one day off, one day on, then it's all over the place and that's not child-centered and not in her best interests so that was where all the arguments came from and now that we're settled if i'm honest every argument i think we've ever had since in the last probably 18 to 18 months two years has been around something to do with the schedule right and that over the years becomes more established yeah so those arguments become fewer and further between. It's a whole world out there.

And also, I mean, there's an app for everything, isn't there? That's basically what we're realizing here. There's an app for everything. There really is. Thank you so much for joining us today, Dan. It's been so, so interesting speaking to you. And thank you for being so open about it as well. Thank you for having me as well.

I appreciate it. Absolutely. And there'll be a lot of people that, you know, really will be relating to a lot of the stuff you're saying. Where can they find you if they want more information? So best place is Instagram. So it's at the underscore breaking underscore dad. Amazing. Thank you so much, Dan. It's been lovely to speak to you. Thanks so much. Thank you very much for listening to Mums the word the parenting podcast make sure you hit the subscribe or follow button so you never miss an episode we love to hear from you get in touch on

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