Mum's The Word! The Parenting Podcast - Sarah Jayne Dunn on the Sexualisation of Mums

Episode Date: November 7, 2022

Actress Sarah Jayne Dunn joins us this week to chat about her move to onlyfans and the response this had, owning your own body and escaping the hypersexualisation of the female body as a mum.Get in touch with us at [e-mail]----A Create Podcast Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

I'm sure as parents we all know how messy things can get whether that's around the house during meal times and even when it comes to our little ones themselves when it comes to wiping Alf's messy face and body I want to be sure that what I am using is the best choice for his skin with baby eczema and nappy rash being common conditions using wipes for sensitive skin is a must we've both been loving water wipes. We've actually used them since Alf was born and they gently clean and help protect delicate newborn and premature baby skin. They're made of just two ingredients, so 99.9% water and a drop of fruit extract. That means they are the best wipe choice for sensitive skin. Alf loves them and I even find myself using them.

Well, good morning. I thought today I would talk about kind of sexualization and shame of not just women, but specifically of mums, because I was looking on my friend's Instagram today. She's called Mel Wells. She is a new mum and had a pretty horrific experience of bringing her child into the world he ended up in NICU but anyway he is at home all is well and now she's having to call out the sort of mum shaming um and one of the messages I saw today um kind of echoes what I experienced with Alf. And so people are messaging her saying, why do you feel the need to show your breasts daily? And it's so interesting, isn't it? This sort of, even when you're breastfeeding, even when you're nourishing your child, you still can't escape the hyper-sexualization of breasts. And this is something that really used to upset me when I was breastfeeding because number one, I felt like I was like a bit of a prisoner to Alf because he never took a bottle.

So for an entire year, I felt like lots of other mums were and they probably weren't, by the way, this was my own perception. Like lots of other mums were kind of like getting back to normal, being able to go out with friends. And I couldn't leave Alf because I fed on demand and he wouldn't take a bottle. And I couldn't leave Alf because I fed on demand and he wouldn't take a bottle. And I found a lot of the time that I was on social media, whether it was doing stories or even if I was working with a brand and I had to do a shoot, I'd have to spend time breastfeeding. So I'd be like, well, we don't have time to wait for me to finish breastfeeding. So let's just crack on. And it did kind of get this sort of barrage of why are your boobs always out or God, you're attention seeking.

And I remember thinking, like, if you knew what my nipples look like, you would realize that there is nothing sexual or attention seeking about this. So I'm really excited about today's guest because not only will I know that you know who she is, she is a mum to a son. She joined the cast of Hollyoaks when she was just 14 years old so a literal child and she grew up with Hollyoaks and I mean she's so empowering for not only for people who are older she's in her 40s what do they say fabulous at 40 and she's literally an embodiment of empowerment as you get older she also found herself earlier this year in a huge media storm as she got fired by holly oaks for joining only fans so i'm not going to give any more introduction because i feel like we just need to get straight into it but it is sarah jane dunn hi i've honestly been dying to speak to you on the podcast ever since the total media storm

when was it now the beginning of the year i feel like no it was a year ago we're like nearly a year to the day of me launching on only fans so yeah nearly a year ago now so for those of you who aren't aware actually i'm going to let you tell it in your own words. So you started Hollyoaks when you were 14. Correct. And what did you do between then and obviously them publicly firing you last year? So I started when I was 14. I was there for 10 years, solid. And then I left of my own accord and I went off and I did other TV.

I did lots of theatre. I did a bit of film. And then I did other jobs in between. So I did some work in beauty. I trained as a personal trainer. I did pre-postnatal training. And then I ended up finding my way back to Hollyoaks about six years ago, seven years ago now. And was there solidly, yeah, until last year.

So obviously we had the pandemic. We had lockdown. I found that really difficult I know some people enjoyed it for me personally I found having my freedom taken away and control taken away really really difficult and obviously not being knowing what was going on with work and so that was what sort of triggered me to try and find something that I could do that would be creative that I would be in control of that was on my terms and that I could do that would be creative, that I would be in control of, that was on my terms and that I could monetize. Long story short, I looked around, I looked at

different ways of sort of moving my content from Instagram onto another platform. And I kept coming back to OnlyFans and I decided to set up an OnlyFans account to do exactly the same as what I was doing on Instagram. So any sort of like bikini lingerie shots, anything a little bit more sexy to move onto that platform. And I did that. I'd had talks with Hollyoaks. I'd had Zoom calls. They knew that that was going to be happening. And then I launched. And a week after I launched, I got called in for a meeting and within four or five days, they'd fired me and then went to the press publicly and told the press without even coming to me first to say, look, we're going to out you. And then it was a crazy old media storm. I've never had that in my life in the whole 26 years I've been in the industry. I've never experienced anything like

that. And so I really felt like I was in fight or flight for a good few months and then having to deal with everyone's opinions on what I decided to do for me and my family um but yeah it's the best decision I ever made to be honest so. Do you know what it's really interesting because I'd love to know what people's opinions are now when we say OnlyFans and if that changes at all by the end of the podcast because I'll be honest when I heard not necessarily you but lots of people joining OnlyFans I was a bit like oh OnlyFans because you know it as a sort of um I guess like an ethical porn social network but interestingly lots of mums and increasingly so during the pandemic started joining OnlyFans and I think there's lots of things to discuss and dissect because there's not only the sort of

overall sexism or internalized misogyny that we have as a society where obviously you know men can go to strip clubs and watch porn and do all of those things. But it's the women who actually do it and who are living for it who are shamed. But also, I guess the sort of idea that when you're a mum, you should behave differently. But what I find interesting in your case is that, I mean, I grew up watching Hollyoaks.aks I mean I feel like anyone of our generation Hollyoaks was like the sexy thing to watch and like so you started as a teenager an underage teenager how do you see it because I remember there were like sexy calendars and FHM shoots and you were kind of I wouldn't say glamour models but it was all in that sort of same sort of bracket in the same way it was when I started Made in Chelsea. You know, there were FHM shoots and I don't think there was a calendar.

And if there was, I wasn't important enough to be in it. But what do you think is the difference for Hollyoaks to kind of make this stand? Because what's interesting to me is their statement in which they announced they were firing you. It was because they said they were a youth-led channel and they don't agree with sexualized content. But they were the sexualized content of our generation. Well, I mean, the reason that I have done these shoots all my life since probably age 17, 18, is because of that show. Like that's how I got into doing the Lad's Mags and the calendars. And that was never an optional thing.

That was sort of a contractual, right, you're part of the show, so this is part of what you do. And anyone, any of the girls that ever did go out to, I don't really feel comfortable doing this, or that's not what I got into the industry for, you know, that sort of had an effect on them moving forward if you were to say no. So it did sort of feel like, right, OK, we'll have to be part of this. And I always enjoyed those shoots.

So I've always said, you know, I never felt forced to do anything. I very much enjoyed them. But you did see it sort of feel played off against each other as girls because, you know, whoever got on the front of the calendar, you'd then go, well, why didn't I get on the front of the calendar this year? And why wasn't I chosen to be on the front of FHM? And why haven't I done that shoot? And so, yeah, during my really sort of formative years, let's say between the ages of 14 and 20, I was exposed then to that, to those shoots. So for then, for me to then actually go, well, this is, it's my image at the end of the day and it's my body and I want to decide what I do with it and how it's portrayed. Because the other thing about all

those shoots in the noughties is that all the images were so heavily edited and I look back at them, I'm going to actually dig them out from the garage because I've kept them all somewhere. And I look back at them and I go, was never me anyway that's never I'm like my figure never looked like that you know and I can I can look at those images and go well that has been altered and I had no say in that before I even saw the image it had gone to print and then you know by that point it's too late and even if it would have said anything anyway it wouldn't change things so I think that's why there was such a sort of uproar when this happened to me, because it was so hypocritical.

And I think their argument was that they don't do that sort of stuff anymore. Well, that's a load of rubbish, because only four years before I launched The OnlyFans, when I went back to the show, I posted an image on my Instagram comparing one shot that I'd done for OnlyFans to a shot that I'd done for one of tabloids. And it's an identical shot. Their issue or what they said to me was that it was an over 18s platform and that they can't be associated with that.

And then obviously my argument was that, well, but what I'm doing on that platform is not over 18. but what I'm doing on that platform is not over 18. So, you know, if you go on the likes of Twitter, it's full of porn and children from the age 13 can wait up there, but the show is still part of that platform. So what is the kind of content you put up on OnlyFans? Because I think, I guess this is the thing that probably lots of people will think

when they think OnlyFans, they think kind of sex work, porn. And by the way, I do think there is an argument to be had that at least it is ethical because you know that whatever content people are choosing to put up um however x-rated or not they are getting the money for it so I think for sex workers it's been amazing hasn't it and again it's like touching back to this thing of why do we shame the sex workers and not the people who buy into sex workers yeah 100 but what kind of content are you putting up there is it x-rated content no not at

all and so that I think like you said before my first perception or what I thought about OnlyFans was exactly the same as you and I think everyone else and I think that's where this sort of like oh my gosh I can't believe she's done this has come from because I thought well it's porn so someone mentioned OnlyFans and I went no no no no I'm not that's not you've got this wrong that's not where what I'm doing that's not what I was sort of thinking um but then when you go on the platform and when I learned more about the platform and how it works there's everything on there from you know there is explicit content on that that is why there is an over an over 18s um age policy on there because of that content to protect people but there's everything else on there there's there's anything you can imagine on there and

it's a content creator's dream for that reason so my content itself and i would say i always compare it to the likes of those naughty magazines. As in the naughties, not naughty. So like YouTube. Yeah, FHM, Maxi. Yeah, exactly. So all of those shots. Like I shot a calendar recently and I went to Marbella and I did, you know, the sort of classic kneeling in the sand,

in the sea with no top on but hand over boobs. Exactly what I have been doing since I was sort of like 18 it's more than I would have done on Instagram in terms of I wouldn't have put an image like that on Instagram but it's no more than I've ever done before when I've not had control when I've not been making money from it when I've not had a say on you know where that image is going which photographer I'm working with so it's much more for me it feels like a much safer platform and space and and like you know people go oh it's all all about the money i've never said it's not about the money of course you know the reason i was looking for something else to do alongside the show was as for in

financial safety as well as for something that i can be in control of of course that's where it comes from and again why are we shamed for wanting to earn money and to you know be in control of of course that's where it comes from and again why are we shamed for wanting to earn money and to you know be in control of our lives i think this is like the the sticky point for for people isn't it because you have people like piers morgan or whoever it is constantly criticizing somebody like emily ratajowski i can never say her surname so i hope that's it right um because they're saying oh she's attention seeking and she moans about being sexualized but all her content sexual but then it's like but we do live in that world and she her book is actually incredible where she talks about like her experiences of harassment and also the impact of being overly sexualized over such a

long period of time from such a young age and the the impact that had on her but it's like why is it when we almost take back the reins or decide to earn money from it that then we're hypocrites or it you know why can't people see it as empowering yeah i mean i've read her book as well and i thought it was incredible and this is the i think this is the whole problem isn't it and this is where for me the audience is really split and i was very grateful that i'd say probably like 80 90 of people were on my side and sort of could see the hypocrisy in it. And a lot of people were like, you know, exactly what we were just saying, like, why not? Like, why? It's my body and it's my

choice. And I am not being forced. And again, that's, I think, a great thing with OnlyFans is that you have to be the one putting content up there. No one else can, you know, go, right, I'm going to take some images of you and then I'm going to make some money off of those. Why is that a problem for people? And I genuinely don't understand. And this is one of the reasons why I've really stood my ground with it. And why I stood my ground with it with Holyoaks, to be honest with you, because I just, I think I got to an age and I turned 40 last year. So it all sort of coincided with when this all happened.

And I just got so sick of other people. And I felt like I was being taken advantage of. And I think looking back now and really dissecting things over the years, and I've, you know, been speaking to a counsellor pre all of this, but actually I was speaking to a counsellor when this happened. So it really helped me sort of break it down. And I think it comes down to that loss of control and that feeling taken advantage of almost not respected or not appreciated so I don't understand I mean I can't really answer the question for you because

I don't understand why people would then have a problem with me making those choices for myself if I'm not hurting anyone especially when you said you were 17 and you were kind of contractually obligated to do the FHMs and the nuts and the school girl you know the school girl sort of calendars and it's so interesting isn't it because I'd be interested to know if number one who your critics are and number two if the fact that your age and the fact you're a mother plays into that criticism because do you remember there was a cover of Britney Spears I think it might have been on NME and it was this really sexy cover shoot and she's in a school uniform in a children's bedroom but it was talking about how sexy she is

and now that she's going through her own kind of unique freedom of empowerment obviously being released from the conservatorship conservatorship and i see the criticism of her that she's like old so she should know better that she's a mum and she's embarrassing her children and what would her children think so have you found that your critics do reference your age or the fact that you're a mom? And interestingly, who are the critics? Are they men or are they women? One of the things that my bugbears, the thing that irritates me the most

and the comment that I've had, not frequently, but the one that I've had on repeat most is that you should be ashamed of yourself. You're a mother and it's come from women. So every time I've had that comment, it's come from a woman. That really, that's the one that I think doesn't upset me but it's one that really niggles me the most because I think well I've had to do this all my life it's not been a choice now it's a choice why why suddenly when

you're a mother do you I feel like you get put in a box and it's like, well, you can't be sexy anymore. How dare you show yourself, you know, how dare you show some flesh? How dare you not think about your child? Well, of course I'm thinking about my child, you know. And actually what's happened in the last year has given us more financial freedom. And I spent more time with my son than I have done, you know, in these whole six years of his little life. I've been able to take him to school. I've been able to pick him up from school you know we've gone on holidays that we wouldn't have been able to go on mummy's around a lot more than I was when I was working

uh 12 13 hour 14 hour shifts filming so why again why is that a bad thing why would someone look at that and go well you're not thinking about your child and like people always sort of go what about when he's older and and my answer to that is my son when he's of an age can you know could google mummy's name and images again will come up of me from me being 17 to 40 now all the images i've done on only fans are protected they're copyrighted i'm not for cbc's them anyway because like i say they're no different to what I've done on OnlyFans are protected. They're copyrighted. I'm not for CBCs them anyway, because like I say, they're no different to what I've done before. He's going to see pictures of mummy in a bikini

or underwear anyway. And actually, I don't want him to look at women and go, oh, well, she shouldn't be, you know, flaunting herself. Or I want him to see a confident woman that made choices for him and for for them and i think he will you know and obviously i will always protect him but that's yeah the thing the mom thing is a thing that bugs me the most like i was kind of saying at the very beginning how mel wells is

currently being shamed for breastfeeding and for having i'm putting this in quotation marks having her boobs out like how else are you meant to feed a child obviously if you're breastfeeding of course but do you know what I like there was a real kind of like aha moment in my own journey when I was breastfeeding because I was getting these kind of troll comments a lot of how I was attention seeking and why was my boobs always out as if like I thought oh do you know what I could get male attention at the same time as feeding my child what a win like it's sick the thought process is sick funny enough TikTok banned me from TikTok for child pornography because there was a video of me breastfeeding um now how on earth that they can essentially sexualize a breastfeeding mother

yeah but this is the thing i feel like women's bodies even when they are mothers and especially when they are mothers even if you were doing something as pure as feeding your child your child through your boobs it feels like motherhood is another way to weaponize women's sexuality against them and you know what I'm going to put my hands up and I bet loads of you listening will probably put your hands up as well that I used to do this like I remember I think because I'd always heard it in the media but I remember being like they're a mother like they should know better I can't believe they'd be wearing that because they're a mother but it's like why aren't we allowed to continue to be ourselves just because we are a

mother and there is also an irony in the fact that you become a mother through sex so you are sexual yeah but then you it's like this like madonna whore complex isn't it that you can't be sexual and maternal at the same time because it like people's minds go into overdrive because they're like oh but i can't i can't respect you and i can't and fancy you at the same time like you're one or the other you're a whore. Or like morality. But nobody ever questions what a man would wear. I don't think there's ever a man who's walked down the street topless on a hot day that's had someone be like, oh, you're a father now.

You should know better. Yeah, put your clothes on. Yeah, how disgusting. Every time Tommy takes his top off, like in the park or whatever, I'm always like, oh, you're asking for it. And it's's like a joke between us because obviously if I took my top off in the park or even if I was breastfeeding in the park I would get called an attention seeker or you know have people tut at me and I'm like I have a purpose for my boobs to be out and yes you can

cover up but also maybe my child doesn't want to feed with a muslin on his head and he shouldn't have to and you shouldn't have to exactly why should you be like made to feel ashamed for that and this is what I realized and I wonder like you were obviously in this kind of weird public eye with all the sexualization and objectification but what I realized with my breastfeeding journey was that actually the comments were the same as when I was a 15 year old girl with big boobs. It's always your body is something that you should be ashamed of, put it away, stop attracting attention. But why is it never considered that maybe we don't want the attention?

Like maybe we don't want, maybe we're not doing it for men. Like what nobody ever says to a dad or a man, attention seeker, because it's presumed that not everything they do is to get women's attention. So why is it? And also, even if you do want, let's say there are circumstances where you feel good or you want attention, whoever it's from,

why is that also used against us? The thing that people always say about women is oh she's so full of herself and it's like but isn't that what we all strive to be like don't we all want to be full of ourselves don't we all want to feel beautiful and confident and I feel like we spend most of our lives trying to learn how to be full of ourselves so why is it weaponized against us yeah I did a post about that because somebody had dropped a comment I think on my tiktok one of my tiktoks and I've done some like silly dance and it was a bit rubbish but I loved like I loved the dance I loved what I was

wearing and I do these things and that's sort of again where this whole journey for me has stemmed from I was doing shoots anyway I think I got to a certain age and I wanted to do shoots for myself. So I was doing a load of shoots with different photographers, people that I'd wanted to work with. And the images are sort of for me because I thought, you know what? I've got to an age. I've looked after myself. I work hard, eat well, I train well. Like I feel good. Why shouldn't I be proud of that? Why shouldn't I own that? And why shouldn't I be able to document that? Even if no one else sees it for me, you know, in 20, 30, 40 years time, hopefully, I can look back and go, go on me. And I wish that 20 year old me had that mindset. I

wish that I could look back at those pictures and go, oh, she was confident and she knew what she wanted. And she, you know, she set boundaries and she was happy. And I don't look back at those pictures and go, oh, she was confident and she knew what she wanted. And she, you know, she set boundaries and she was happy. And I don't look back at those pictures. And I, I know what I was going through at those times and no one else obviously does. So those images have always been for me and they make me feel good. And the thing that I used to like about putting those images on social media was that a lot of women, more than men, and I still have more female followers than male followers, would go, I love that you're doing this. And I love that you're confident and comfortable. And like you say, we work so hard to feel good in our own skin, to be more confident, to be more comfortable. I do want to love myself more why is that detrimental like

yeah I do love myself and if I don't love myself then this is the whole cycle isn't it if I don't love myself but I can't like give my best to my partner my family my children whatever my job my passion my hobby hobbies I think that's a comment that really needs or a criticism that needs to be flipped on its head because we want to love ourselves. And then go into the, you know, the way that women are sort of go at each other for breastfeeding or for looking a certain way. I think a lot of that stems down, like boils down to sort of conditioning, doesn't it? And the media and, you know, you might see, and I've had this done to me

and I've reposted a headline and completely blanked out most of the headline because it'll be like, Sarah, you know, shows off midriff in tight fitting dress or something ridiculous whilst out with husband John. And I'll just like go, Sarah, out with husband John. Because why is that all that stuff in the middle? It's not, no comment on him. There's no comment on you know where we are anything like

that it's all about appearance and so I think we're so conditioned we read those things and we'll see the sort of keywords and then we internalize it as well don't we and also we'll see completely like let's say it is Sarah flaunts her mine is usually flaunts her generous cleavage and it's like so then that makes you think like what's up why is she flaunting her cleavage and then it's like hang on a minute her cleavage isn't even showing she's literally just got boobs that exist on her body and the thing that annoys me that they do it's if you've had a child especially within a year let's say they will always say they flaunt their postnatal figure six weeks or six months after giving birth and a really bad one I saw was um Katy Perry so bear in mind her and Orlando

Bloom were on a beach naturally as you would be on a beach in swimwear there was no comment about the fact that Orlando Bloom was flaunting his physique he was just in speedos which arguably a bit more revealing than a bikini but that's regardless of the point so he was just allowed to exist on the beach Katy Perry was flaunting or showcasing or whatever it was her postnatal figure and then they had the audacity to say what her prenatal body measurements were saying it looks like she's close to getting back to those measurements and I was like this is just so rank but you're right it conditions us a to think that women are flaunting themselves object yeah objectifying themselves and I remember they used to do it to me and I'd be like

bloody hell I don't even like myself and I am myself because they would like they put like the most like revealing picture they could find of me usually it was from like a lingerie shoot that I'd done for work when I was a lingerie model it'd be like Ashley bemoans having big boobs or Ashley bemoans her boobs being sexualized but then they'd put it next to a picture of like a quite provocative picture of me in lingerie so I know what people would be like well if she doesn't if she doesn't want people to comment on her boobs and she shouldn't do that and it is that whereas like men aren't conditioned to think that way why is it that we are fascinated with sexualizing girls in school uniforms 17 year old girls on holly oaks but then when somebody does it in their 40s or 30s or whatever it is which by the way i think is really inspiring because it

allow i wish i'd seen when i was younger that actually you know i mean look at whether it's jlo or helen mirren or whoever it is like there are so many incredible women and it's not just down to how they look but it shows that you know we are not we are not past it or you know we don't have a shelf life yeah that's exactly that so i think it's amazing for people to see somebody in their owning and feeling empowered and confident. I'm sure as parents, we all know how messy things can get, whether that's around the house, during mealtimes, and even when it comes to our little ones themselves. When it comes to wiping Alf's messy face and body, I want to be sure that what I am using is the best choice for his skin. With baby eczema and nappy rash being common conditions, using wipes for sensitive skin is a must. We've both been loving

water wipes. We've actually used them since Alf was born and they gently clean and help protect delicate newborn and premature baby skin. They're made of just two ingredients, so 99.9% water and a drop of fruit extract. That means they are the best wipe choice for sensitive skin alf loves them and i even find myself using them one thing is interesting though that you said earlier is that people would say to you i think you said this something about like what will your son think when he's older or something and do you know what's interesting because the people that came at me about breastfeeding were like he's going to get to school and be bullied

because when he's a teenager his mates are going to see pictures of you with your boobs out him breastfeeding and I was like I really would like to think that by the time we get to the age where he is a teenager they won't have been brought up and conditioned that it's creepy or weird or sexual that their mum breastfed them. But also I would like to think that I will raise Alf to not objectify women and to see them as more than body parts.

And probably the type of people who troll us saying that are the ones that are going to pass down all of this rubbish to their children. It's a constant battle, isn't it? And I think there's women like you and other amazing women out there that we're really sort of trying to break the mould and have these conversations and normalise things that shouldn't be made, know made like you say made to be weird like feeding your your child why is that being made to be weird but yeah i think there

are some amazing role models out there and like you're saying for me as well i think people like helen miriam emma thompson jlo kylie like all of these women that I probably as a 20-year-old would have gone, oh my God, like they're over 50 or whatever. Like that's dead old. We need women like that to show that there is life and you can still look amazing and you can still rock it and you can sort of, you know, be like, this is me and this is, I'm amazing and this is what I do.

And I think for me, especially being an actor, you are conditioned to sort of go, once you're late twenties, that's sort of it. Like there's not work for you. So that goes back to that, you know, the film and being in the industry. So I've always sort of gone, I got to 20 and I actually panicked more about turning 30

than I did about turning 40 because I think I suddenly was like oh my god what happens now like I'm never going to work again and and people aren't going to want to employ me and and I've not done everything that I want to do yet but I'm I'm suddenly like 30 and I'm old and actually my 30s I hated my 30s I think up until meeting my husband and having my little boy I really didn't enjoy like the first sort of half of them now like hitting 40 for me so far it's just been the best ever and I think we really need to sort of show that there is more I have to say I love I love my 30s now but I loved the beginning part of my 30s I was single and I'd kind of managed to get rid

of this sort of societal pressure that I should have had a partner or children. And I remember I used to feel sorry for people who did have children or a partner because I was like living this like totally free and amazing life. And yeah, I was like, God, there's so much more, like we are not defined by our relationship status,

but again, conditioning in society, like, you know, and it's not just in the UK, like the women were seen as left on the shelf because it all came down to fertility which number one I mean we're more than just a womb and obviously you can be complete if you decide not to have children but this is what we're dealing with that it's acceptable when you are 17 in Hollyoaks to be in FHM or not and be in a calendar and you I presume didn't get any extra money from your Hollyoaks contract for those did you go actually that's a good question did you get more money if you did a calendar uh no so we so I think the most I ever got offered for a calendar was 126 pound and it was a phone call saying right this is your sort of cut of the calendar this year

um would you like to give it to charity or would you like a check and every time I was like can I want the check I love how they were like they did the guilt trip of like charity why do all my own other bits and pieces for charity so I was like I want the money for that well I mean that's ridiculous isn't it I think we we outsold Kylie Minogue's calendar one year and I think that was the year that I got offered like that and that was the most I mean we get we get taken away like we went abroad a few times for it but I then one of one of the girls then left and did her own calendar one year and I remember finding out how much she'd been paid for it and literally being like, what? And I think that was a key moment for me

where I was like, hang on a minute. And they would have been getting that money. But it's true that when you're new to the industry, £120 is a lot of money because you don't know how much people are making off the back of you. Well, we weren't aware of that and that's the thing. And you're also very scared

because you don't want to lose your job. I mean, ultimately that ended up happening to me anyway um but you you're scared because you're we're always meant to feel made to feel in and you'll be the same in in your industry that you're there's loads more of you and you know if you can't do it then there's always someone else that'll want that job or want that position again I think as women that even more so yeah i think that's a women thing in lots of industries isn't it which is why so many mums are scared to ask for flexible hours or whatever it might be that they need and it's this thing that we put this pressure and expectation on women to raise children like they don't have a job and we shame people for

choices of you know if they go back to work then they shouldn't be at work they should be at home but then if they stay at home they're just stay-at-home mums and that you literally cannot win you can't win I think this is actually like being a really big lesson for me as well that we do get shame for any of our choices and I really noticed it in that beginning of motherhood as well like whether you sleep train or not whether you breastfeed or not and I think you know there is shame and in both sides and there really shouldn't be like we need to start kind of recognizing how society pits us against each other whether that's you know weaponizing our sexuality against us or

even in those kind of early days of motherhood but also knowing that people are going to judge anyway so we may as well do what we want yeah absolutely you literally can't win i think whatever choices you make they have to be right for you and that's something that i'm i've been sort of really working on the last couple of years or even not as long as that because i think i've always been a people pleaser and i've always sort of again going back to sort of being scared of either losing my job or upsetting people or not saying the right thing. I think also working for a company for so long, I was sort of in a position where you ultimately end up being a little bit filtered because you're scared to have your own opinion, because you're scared to say the wrong thing or think the wrong thing or represent a show or company the wrong, or not how they've asked you to. Or, you know,

for me, the last year has sort of been very freeing in that I've been able to go, actually, well, I'm still learning. What is it that I feel? What is it that I think? And actually, I have different opinions about things or to be able to go, no, that doesn't feel right for me, or I don't want to do that. Or like you say, you just have to make your own choices and do what's right for you because you will always be criticized and there will always be judgment have you thought much so Stanley's six now have you thought much about like raising a son and how you're going to kind of have these conversations with him to try and sort of combat misogyny you might not have by the way because obviously we've got a long time I'm in the same boat I've got obviously Alf but is it something that crosses your mind of like wow

there's going to be a day where he does see my pictures or you know what he knows I'm on I was on OnlyFans and do you think about those things or do you think well I'm not going to be doing it by the time he's that age or yeah a bit of both i mean i i don't plan to be doing it when he's like a little bit older you know by the time he's at an age where he'll be going to high school which is i think far more challenging for children and children are far crueler to each other and the primary school this will be something that will be you know a distant memory for for me and him and us and the saying that i sort of don't want to pigeonhole myself and go, actually, I've got to stop it, you know, for him and because of what, again, because of what other people think.

So I've had, like, Stanley knows what mummy does and he's got to an age now where he recognises that, you know, all the kids have said to him, oh, your mummy's famous or your mummy's on telly. And so he knows that I do telly things. He knows that I do radio things. I'll say mummy's going doing a photo shoot and mummy's on telly. And so he knows that I do telly things. He knows that I do radio things. I'll say mummy's going doing a photo shoot and mummy's got this today. And he just takes it all in his stride. He doesn't sort of question it. And my husband was an actor as well. We met on

a theatre job. It's not what he does now, but he's great and super supportive. And my parents have always been supportive and, you know, have always been there for me. And I'm very lucky in that I've got very sort of grounded people around me. I think as and when we reach any sort of bumps or hurdles with him or, you know, we need to explain things, then that's when I will sit down and, you know, have conversations with him. And I want to bring him up to be, you know, like I said, an open-minded, respectful man that doesn't sexualize women in that way and that allows people to have their

own choices and I will you know I'm happy for him to make whatever life choices he wants to himself it's it's hard because he you know as you you've got something like you say each year gets the new challenges get thrown off but not even every each week and so it's a journey that we're sort of navigating as we go through it but do you know what it's such a funny conversation as well isn't it because it's something that we are sort of probably crosses our mind a lot and also is put on us a lot you know whenever there is any sort of like big horrific event where a man has murdered a woman or whatever it might be it's like raise your sons better raise your sons raise your sons and then obviously whether it's from breastfeeding or doing lingerie pictures there's this sort of like

background noise of like well what is your son going to think when he's older but I wonder if I'm trying to think of like really famous like let's say Mark Wahlberg who did the Calvin Klein advert in very very tight pants like you can pretty much see the shape of the penis in those pants and they were like big on buses I don't think there would be anyone saying to him have you thought about how you're gonna explain this to your child like you know how how you're gonna explain to him because we a man can walk down the street topless or be mark warburg in his very sexy calvins and we still don't objectify them we still see them as more than a body you know hopefully by the time our boys are older as well that the the dialogue will have

changed more and the script will have flipped or you know it won't be we won't be having these conversations is the dream isn't it rewind six years how did you feel as a new mum because I would say even though having another one I'm still sort of in that new mum phase that I'm just feeling like I'm starting to find myself again in terms of feel like myself in my body feel like myself in my mind and also kind of get that sort of independence back a bit where you can recognize yourself and probably like a new and improved version of yourself of how you were before but you see yourself again whereas definitely for me in that first year I was like I'm not sleeping my boobs are leaking my nipples are ginormous I feel disgusting and obviously I'm about to go through it all again but what was your experience like becoming a new mum and especially as an actor

it wasn't we weren't planning on having children and so Stanley was a bit of a surprise um and so it sort of all happened quite quickly in that I you, we found out we were pregnant and we decided we were going to continue and have the baby. And then I really enjoyed pregnancy. I think I was classed as an older mom because I was 34, which I found, I still find crazy. But because of that, I got a lot more attention in terms of checks and scans and things. So actually I found that quite reassuring. It was all a bit of a shock, I think. I spoke about this on another podcast, but it was sort of, I feel like I wasn't given enough information about what could happen. And then this sort of aftermath of that. And then, you know, one, being a new mom, two, navigating breastfeeding, three, navigating all the crazy hormones that are flying around your body and, you know, dealing and keeping a little human alive.

What that does to your body, what that does to your relationship, what that does to your mind, the sleep deprivation I really struggled with. And it took me, I'd say about a year to 18 months before I really went, okay, I'm starting to sort of feel a little bit like me again, like I'm starting. I was always very confident. I would go out with the baby and, you know, repair my core and pelvic floor. And I never rushed. I hate because I hate one of my big bugbears again, bugbears is that women are sort of we're all conditioned to go, right. She snapped back like six weeks after having a baby. She's back in her skinny jeans and she looks incredible. And I was really against that and

still am. And so I really enjoyed sort of documenting my postnatal journey with the baby. And at the time, I wasn't on Hollyoaks, I wasn't on any show, I wasn't actually actively acting, I was doing some beauty stuff at the time time so it was quite nice to sort of be out of the public eye a little bit with it but um yeah it definitely took me a good 18 months before I started to find myself again and then even then I think as a mum it's and again we've made to feel like this it's a constant sort of right you are given this label as mom but you're still you and you have to find you in there somewhere for your own sanity I think yeah do you know what it's I find this whole like snapback culture really interesting because I've got friends who did lose loads of weight whether that was through

illness or genetics or whatever it was and they felt like ashamed or that they were bad role models and again it's like we're still punishing women for their bodies whether you don't look a certain way or whether you do look like a certain way and for me personally it would have been so much more beneficial if I knew that postnatal recovery was more than just if you snap back or not because that's really what I thought was you get to six weeks you get your sign off from the doctor and then you're back to exercise or you choose whether you lose weight or don't lose weight I was always like I'm just happy to be healthy and take it slow but I also couldn't didn't realize that it would take me another like 18 months before I felt like physically well enough to do anything yeah this

whole narrative that women essentially it's like the objectification of our bodies isn't it so even in a time where I feel like we should be like carried around being fed grapes do you know I mean like our bodies have just done this amazing thing we're like creating life for society i mean i saw this mental uh headline the other day about bonk for britain and a tory mp is like calling for i don't know tax cuts for women if we have children because they need a baby boom because there's not enough people in the population and it's like we don't live in the handmade tale why don't you give tax cuts to the dads as well yeah and also like you're totally overlooking the fact that lots of women, 54,000 women a year leave their jobs

because they can't afford childcare. So tax cuts do diddly squat, but also bonk for Britain. It's like, stop objectifying us, make it more affordable and give us reasons why we would want to go into motherhood that aren't just for a tax cut anyway I do think like everything that you're doing like I said I was really hypercritical of OnlyFans and even when I first heard about it I had all these like inner kind of misogyny, like, oh, why is she doing that? And then I had to like take myself back

and then be like, good for you, you're right. Like if you put it up on Instagram, it goes all over the tab boys. And we all, everyone in our industry, like whether it's under the kind of body confidence bracket or whether you're made to do it for a brand or a magazine or whatever it is, you're essentially taking back control.

And arguably from what you said, if you have to be over 18 to consume that content it's actually probably a safer environment because on instagram people of any age can get onto instagram and look up the content so exactly um it is really interesting i'd love to know anyone listening if it's like made you kind of question your own inner misogyny of how you see older people or how you see mums or did you have preconceptions about how people should behave as a mum and then suddenly you were a mum

and then you were like, oh shit, I still want to be sexy. That's a really unfair thing to say. Before we go, I do have an email from Helen and she says, hey Ashley, I've never written into a podcast before and who knows if you ever will see this. Firstly, thank you for writing in. And yes, I do see this. I just wanted to tell you, I've listened to your announcement and it made me cry happy tears.

I'm 15 weeks pregnant with my second. I had a miscarriage just before, had a traumatic birth with my little boy who's nearly two now. And I struggled with PTSD and PND for a while after. boy who's nearly two now and I struggled with PTSD and PND for a while after I found what you shared about making their decision on one or two really helpful and what you just shared about looking at your life in five to ten years is just so affirming I felt god I'm so out of breath because I've got to that stage in pregnancy where like you feel like your diaphragm's squashed felt so mixed about being pregnant again i've got so much fear and it's blocking out some of the excitement but weirdly listening to your episode has just helped

me to actually allow myself to feel some positive vibes rather than just negative i'm not sure i can explain the huge positive impact of people like you sharing the realities of motherhood and mental health such a cliche but really helped me to feel less alone I feel a bit silly sending this but I just felt compelled to share by the way please never feel silly for sharing this because sometimes I'm just talking into the abyss so it's nice to know that it has a positive impact she said thank you congratulations and I look forward to seeing your journey along my own Helen P.S. I think doing less pooey nappies because of ultra strong pregnancy nose was the only positive I got out of the symptoms from the

first trimester every cloud by the way I couldn't agree more what would you say to Helen by the way who's obviously going through the motions of like fearing what's to come you're obviously a bit further ahead than me and than us so do you have like words of advice for new mums who are kind of still not feeling quite themselves it goes so quickly I think is the thing that and it I you know we've we've only got one little boy and I don't think we'll have any more children and so for me like I sort of would like to rewind a little bit and embrace moments more because it does go so quickly and everyone says that to you it's sort of a cliche thing rewind a little bit and embrace moments more because it does go so quickly. And everyone says that to you. It's sort of a cliche thing, isn't it?

Oh, you blink and you miss it and time flies. But it really, really does. And like all of us, I get mum guilt for working or for having some time to myself or going away for a night. And I really feel like that's important as well to make the most of those times and to just really make the most of the times, even the really crappy, horrible times where you don't feel like you'll ever be able to open your eyeballs again. I think just make the most of it.

It's amazing. And I think the fact that our bodies can do this incredible thing and we can find our way back to us, however long that takes there's no rush just forget the pressure then I think it's just amazing and congratulations by the way to you as well well congratulations to Helen as well but yeah you know what I find is like going into it this time I know that there'll be really shit bits and I think without the shit bits consumed

me because I couldn't see a way out of them and I was like oh my god what have I done I love my life before and now I don't sleep and you know but I feel like whatever happens with this next baby and I know that it will be hard although I feel like I'm already a mum now like I'm not battling with the identity and for me the identity thing was a big part of it and getting over my own I mean I keep saying internalized misogyny but you know my ideas of like well I this is I don't I want to be seen as more than a mum more than a mum more than a mum but it was because of how I judged what being a mum was and now I've unpicked a lot of that I feel much more comfortable and I know that there will be hard relentless bits whether it's

sleep deprivation or the moments of being touched out or like wishing that you could stop breastfeeding but not being able to or like but I also know that they pass and they get so good and every year I find is like your favorite bit like every time Stanley gets a little bit older, I'm like, Oh, I love this age. I love this age. And the more his little personality develops and the more this little human

is just like, I just, I'm so proud of him. I just love him so much. And you think that you can't love them anymore than you, than you do. And then you just do, you find yourself staring at them.

So yeah, it's just gorgeous. I'm excited, Sarah. Thank you so much for talking to me um and thanks to all of you guys for listening um if you do want to get in touch whether it's about anything we've talked about in this episode or maybe an idea for a future episode then i'd love to hear from you so you can obviously whatsapp um either a message or a voice message it's free you can do it anonymously if you want the number is

075 999 27537 or you can email us like Helen did at askmumsthewordpod at gmail.com or you can leave a review on apple podcast we see that as well if you listen on apple thank you so much for your time thank you so much for listening And I'll be back with another episode same time, same place next week. I'm sure as parents, we all know how messy things can get, whether that's around the house, during mealtimes, and even when it comes to our little ones themselves. little ones themselves. When it comes to wiping Alf's messy face and body, I want to be sure that what I am using is the best choice for his skin. With baby eczema and nappy rash being common conditions, using wipes for sensitive skin is a must. We've both been loving water wipes. We've actually used them since Alf was born and they gently clean and help protect delicate newborn and premature baby skin. They're made of just two ingredients, so 99.9% water and a drop of

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