Mum's The Word! The Parenting Podcast - Sonali Shah

Episode Date: December 20, 2021

TV and radio presenter and mum of two Sonali Shah joins Ashley this week to chat breastfeeding, family support and controlled crying. If you have a parenting question you would like Ashley and her guest to discuss, get in touch at [e-mail]---A Create PodcastSee acast.com/privacy for privacy and opt-out information. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

I'm so excited for today's guest especially because we've we've literally had to stop having a chinwag before because the conversation is so good that I want to save it I'm joined by the amazing Sonali Shah she is a freelance broadcaster known for being one of the faces of BBC's Escape to the Country, Crimewatch, National Lottery. She is a radio host on Magic, which Tommy will be very jealous of talking to you because he is a big Magic fan. And away from the camera, Sonali is an ambassador for the Prince's Trust,

the British Asian Trust, and regularly supports Barnardo's. And you are also a mum to Ariana, who I believe is aged eight, and son Rafi, aged five. That's right. I love the name Rafi, can I just say. Oh, thank you so much. It was so hard to find a boy's name that kind of hinted to our Asian

heritage, but also kind of went with the surname. And yeah, honestly, we really struggled. But as soon as we picked it, and we picked both names very early on in the pregnancies that's interesting see I mean Ariana's lovely as well I've just never heard Rafi but it's it's amazing I know quite a few people who've lent me the name they have sons called Rafi and I asked them I was like do you mind if I borrow it it's quite a Middle Eastern name quite aistani name so it's sort of heavy in those communities so yeah interesting that you said that you pick names early on in the pregnancy because we did as well whereas my sister still like they really didn't know what they were going to call theirs and i always find that i mean i was just so impatient with the whole process i hate surprises so i found

out the sex of both babies really early on. Ariana at 20 weeks, because in 2013, when I was pregnant, that was the only way. And then with Rafi, we did a private blood test at 12 weeks. It was really, really early on. I mean, and for me, I need to know I'm a total control freak. I need to know what I'm doing, what I'm having. I don't want the surprise when I'm in the middle of labor. I just don't like surprise. And it's actually a surprise whenever you find out in many ways, but I just wanted to start visualizing the baby and kind of setting up, you know, clouds and just kind of imagining my life. I like that. I like the lead up. I hate surprise parties because I don't, I hate missing out on the lead up to the event. I am exactly the same as you. We paid to get the Harmony test done.

I think you can do a blood test, is it from 10 weeks and you can find out not only the sex of the baby, but also just to have that reassurance of knowing that it's healthy. Yeah, I was over 35 with the second one. So I think that age factor meant, and by that time, the Harmony test had come in, it wasn't there in 2013 so yeah I just felt like I've got the option and it gives me the joy of knowing what I'm having which didn't really matter actually to me but it was nice to know either way my sister did not find out the sex of her baby and I was like can you do the harmony test and I'll look at the results and not tell you and she was like all my friends I was like but can I know? Even you don't know. And they just think I'm weird.

I know, I'm exactly the same as you. So impatient. And that's what I found really hard, actually, in my pregnancy about the due date, because my due date was on the 3rd of January, but Alfie was born on the 9th of January. And so even though I know that due dates are just guesswork if you're giving birth vaginally well it's to do with your cycle isn't it it's to do this is the daughter of a midwife coming through it's to do with how long your cycle is like the 40 weeks is only ever an estimate because they base it on an average and in France I think it's 41 weeks yeah exactly so it's just an estimate but if you've got a shorter cycle in all likelihood likelihood, you'll have the baby slightly early. But it just depends on how the pregnancy is going as well. As a control freak, I did find that really hard.

It felt like the period between Christmas and New Year where you don't quite know what day it is and you feel like you can't quite get on with things. I know. I'm the type of person that would have suited something elective, except as a daughter of a midwife to elect for cesarean probably wasn't going to be. And there's no judgment on other people. But honestly, like, you know, I had a midwife mom, and I just think it was just not an option for us. And she just would have gone, why? See, this is really interesting to me, because, you know, we were chatting very briefly, just before we hit record. And I was like, don't, don't save this for the podcast. Save this for the podcast.

You've mentioned that having a mum for a midwife is basically has shaped you as a mum. So I'd love to know a little bit more about that. It's completely shaped me as a mum, a 1970s midwife. And it's just the type of mum she was. I always knew I'll end up being that type of mom. And she, you know, I didn't do NCT because my mom said, you don't need to do NCT. You have me. That's just for people who need friends of the same age, or, you know, that's just for people who have, you know, babies of the same age. It's for people who need that company, but you've kind of got me for all the advice. So I didn't even do NCT because I had someone, and I was in a really

lucky position and still am, that I just had this effectively private midwife who happened to also be my mom, who happened to retire just before my first born was born. And so she just has been there throughout. She was at the birth and she's just been amazing in terms of advice I mean she's a straight shooter as am I so she's not for everyone and I'm not for everyone I'm I'm very well aware I'm a little bit marmite because I am very much a straight shooter in what I say to people but I like that about people and I like I appreciate that from my mum I don't always want to hear what she has to say but we have that type of relationship where actually

we can have a little bicker and get over it really really quickly and we tell each other the truth and she was brilliant at the birth and then after that she just set it up she just said this is how you need to be you can be be a mom seven to seven, but if you start getting involved at night, they will rely on you at night and you will not be able to be a working mom. And she just never saw it as an option not to be a working mom. You know, I've overheard her having conversations with other people who are thinking about giving up work. And actually that's a, you know, for some people that's really important and they want to be a stay at home mom. But my mom just sort of says, why? You know know and that's why she's not for everyone because she's opinionated about how things should

be but for me she knew I needed to work up in order to be a better mom there was no way that was going in fact I delayed having kids because you know work was so important to me and also I knew that I would go back to work and have to travel. And I needed them in routine so that other people found them easy to look after. My parents and my in-laws, so all four grandparents, are really, really heavily involved. I've never had a nanny because I have these four grandparents who are so heavily involved and look after them. And they've had three bedrooms all their lives and three sets of parents. And that's enabled me to go out and work without guilt. Of course, there's been guilt, but they're with family. So the guilt

is really how much I sort of rely on the grandmothers. That's where the guilt is rather than for the kids. See, that's amazing. I'm already so jealous that you have both sets of grandparents nearby. I have one, which, I mean, I don't know what I would do without Tommy's parents nearby, but I wish my parents moved closer. But obviously, that's quite a selfish ask for them to come. We moved closer to the parents. And it was my mum always saying that. My job moved to Manchester just before I was thinking about having kids. So I just turned 30. And I knew I was about to lose my job. And I knew I couldn't move to Manchester because my family and my in-laws are in London and I knew I had to think about whether I wanted a family or not and I thought if I want a family in order to stay working I have to stay near them and I lived in zone two in London and my mum said to me she was you know as I say straight shoot she just said

I'm not coming over there to look after your kids if you want any help you move towards me so I moved back out to zone five because both my parents and my in-laws are in zone five in London which is quite a London thing to say I'm aware but it's kind of this big thing to sort of you know move out of where you love and everything but I knew I had to sort of do that in order to have the hands-on help and so I sort of you know had this crisis of losing my job and going freelance just before I was having a kid so I knew I'd have no maternity but I knew that I had family around me to help and I knew I needed that I wouldn't I just would not have been able to have these babies if I didn't and I really admire people who can do it without. There's a few things that I almost want to like rewind on. Firstly, it's interesting to me

listening to you talk because, you know, we both are self-confessed control freaks and we're like, we don't like being told what to do, but I can tell the way that you talk about your mum, you just have so much respect for her. And she sounds very like a headstrong mum, like a very strong woman and it seems like you you kind of go with the flow with her is that fair to say because I feel like if my mom was well regardless of her her profession but I feel like if my mom was like you should do this or you need to do this my like instinct is to rebel immediately whereas you you I can tell from what you're saying that you're you have a lot of trust and faith

in your mum I actually don't mind advice but I love it more when it comes from a place of science so I'm very trusting of professions so the fact that my mum is a midwife has probably changed that dynamic if she hadn't been the midwife I'm not sure I would have taken that advice you know it's it's harder isn't it because it's their own experience. As you say, people give you advice left, right and center. And I'm probably guilty of it as well with some of my friends who had kids later saying, this is what I learned. This is what I learned. I don't know what you want to take from it, but I really wish I'd known this, et cetera, et cetera. But I think the fact that she was coming from a place where she had delivered hundreds of babies herself, she'd raised two kids herself. She knew what she was talking about in her own experience. It might not have worked for me, but at least it was coming from a place of

not only being my mom, but also being a professional. And, you know, the same, my father-in-law's a GP and he came to my house like every day for the first six weeks just to check I didn't have postnatal depression. My dad's a pharmacist. So he would, you know, I think I was surrounded by so many medical people that I trusted all of that advice because it came from a place of science. Whereas I think the aunties who give out this and that and whatnot, I probably just let that flow over me a bit more because I kind of feel like that's coming from a good place, but it's not always going to be relevant to me. And I think a lot of people thought and still do that I was too strict with my kids. I'm too strict with them. I never let them out after seven. They had to be in bed by seven. It was a real control freak thing. And a lot of people didn't get that. They just said, why are you so uptight? Why don't you let them stay up? Why don't you do this? But I knew that, yes, some babies are so flexible, but my kids are just not because of maybe the way I've raised them, but they're great for life. Like they'll go to bed at 7, 7.30 and wake up at 7, 7.30. And that's helped me be a working mom.

They're really hard on holiday. They're really hard to take on holiday because they can't stay up late and they can't share a room with me and all of that. But I'd rather them be better for life. And I've sort of trained them with the help of my mom to be that way. See, this is a fascinating topic of conversation for me. And then another reason why I absolutely love doing this podcast, because it's a really good way to get insight into people who do it differently. And as soon as you said, you know, I'm a seven to seven parent. And that was like, really important to me from the beginning as a working mum I am obviously also a working mum and I I am a 24 hours around the clock my child doesn't sleep we co-sleep like he basically uses my boob as a dummy we're obviously coming up to a year now I'm not I won't lie it's tough

and there are moments where I think should I have been much stricter in a routine? But equally, I find routine quite a stressful thing. I always have, like before having ALF, I was, you know, I'd book a holiday with a day or two notice, obviously things like that I appreciate can't happen anymore, but I get very stressed when I have to try and stick to a routine. So it's really interesting for me to hear you say you know I'm doing this to help them be better because in my head and in my I suppose what I've read about the science of parenting I I can't imagine I mean how does it work seven to seven and how did it work when they were babies obviously this is not a non-judgmental podcast I'm just fascinated because it's basically the total opposite to what I'm doing and I'm obviously at times at my wits end with uh being up through

the night yeah but that's what's so hard about it all and it doesn't work with all babies so I had an absolute nightmare with Ariana after she was born she just wouldn't latch. And I really wanted to breastfeed. That was a big thing for me because I knew it would sort of be easier really without the paraphernalia of bottles. So it was more about just, I want to make my life as simple and as easy as possible. And I knew about if I can breastfeed, there is so much goodness in my milk that I could pass on to her. That also there was a, she was an you know autumn baby so I sort of thought the winter would be easier so the science the scientist in my head kind of thought if I can breastfeed I really wanted to do it and my mum was very much like try and do six months but after that that's more about you and bonding and she'd say that to me

she'd say that after that it's more of a personal thing about whether you can cope about giving up your body longer than that. But try and do till six months. And I had an absolute night but the first three weeks of her life were probably the hardest three weeks of my life because she just wouldn't latch. We were sort of, I was pumping.

I had different breastfeeding specialists coming over to my house. I had my mom's midwife friends kind of coming over. My boob was like, you know, everyone had handled it. I was all over the place hormonally. And had I not had the support of my mom and her friends who I trusted implicitly as 1970s midwives, I of course would have just gone to the bottle and that would have been fine in that scenario. I can completely understand why it doesn't work for people. But honestly, what I've learned is with the right support, I actually think more people would end up breastfeeding and then save money and probably, you know, give their kids a little

bit of immunity. But I just think you've got to do what works for you in that moment and that time. And I was determined that I'm going to do everything I can to try and breastfeed. And then if I can't, I'm not going to feel guilty about it. And then three weeks in, you know, we checked she was tongue, she wasn't tongue tied. Suddenly something switched three weeks and then she became a three hourly baby. And it's like, she would just only feed every three hours. She just suddenly became this baby that that's what happened. And then at six months, I knew I had to stop. I had to start going away again. I had to start filming again and I have October babies and I don't sort of film till the spring. And so that's why I knew that six month thing would work.

to be able to go back to you know traveling around the country djing and i actually spoke to an amazing breastfeeding consultant called stacy zimmel she's called feed eat speak on instagram and i was like this is the stage i'm at i need to sleep i've been told that if i give al formula at night he'll sleep better and she was just brilliant because she said to me look ultimately happy mom happy baby no absolutely so she was like if because she said to me, look, ultimately, happy mom, happy baby. No one just thinks that. So she was like, if formula is right for you, let's get, I will work with you to make this happen. But she said there's so many myths. And obviously everybody, like you were saying earlier, everybody wants to give their experience of what worked for them.

And they almost pass things off that work for them as facts. So I was told, if you give formula, they will sleep better at night. And Stacey was like, no. Yeah, so many people said that to me. In fact, early on when Ariana wasn't feeding, the automatic reaction from someone is, give her formula because she's going to be hungry and she'll lose weight. And then my mom said, she was standing next to me, heard the health visitor say that. The health visitor walked out of the house and she goes, that's just not right. health visitor say that the health visitor walked out the house and she goes that's just not right if you were determined to breastfeed and you want to do that then you just continue and she will not

starve and I know she goes I have faith your baby will not starve but had I not had my mom standing there of course I would have listened to the health visitor and just formula fed yeah well Stacey said to me at the age that Alf is now, there's like it wouldn't make a difference. So she was like, we'll go to cow's milk soon if and when you want that. Right. Yeah, exactly. And she just said it's very easy to confuse sleep and feeding and to almost tie the two in together. And she was like, but actually they're separate points. If you want to stop feeding, yes, we can work towards doing that. But if you just want to sleep better, then that's something different. And I'm probably I mean you know we're going on to a topic of control crying I'm like much more like holistic

I find control crying like quite a fascinating other end of the spectrum well people find it horrific because I mean it's a horrible term and I think most people just think I just can't do that and actually for me it was more I knew they sort of that. And actually for me, it was more, I knew they sort of were just getting up for comfort, not for the food. I could tell that, especially with the second baby, because I had a full, he'd get up at two, but then he wouldn't take a full feed at seven.

And I sat there analyzing with my mom. I was like, well, he's not taking a full feed at seven. She goes, well, when you're ready, it probably, and she said it, she always said when you're ready, because I think it think it is about you as well she just said it's probably because he doesn't need to get up at two but it's becoming a habit but also that's not a bad you know you you guys can do that my question is what what's wrong with comfort because that is exactly exactly and I'm like but I was starting to go deliciousirious. I couldn't do like, it was my second child. I could no longer get up at two. I was going delirious. And I just, it got to, it just was getting too much for me. And I was really weeping and I was struggling and she could

see that. And I thought, is there a way I could sort that out? And she goes, well, why don't you try it? And if it doesn't work, go back to the comfort. She just said to me, why don't you try not going to him tonight? And if you can't stand it, just to the comfort. She just said to me, why don't you try not going to him tonight? And if you can't stand it, just go to him. And I tried it because she knows also what the type of character I am. I probably could have handled it. Most of my friends wouldn't have been able to. And he was whimpering.

He was whimpering. Most parents wouldn't handle that. I'm a bit of a badass. I'm all right. I was like, I know he's just whimpering if he really wanted. And then at seven, he took a full breast. and I thought, you know what? He's okay. The next night he tried it again because kids are clever. And it, but he gave up. It's like, he knew I was determined. He gave, and this was about five months, I think. And he just gave up. He just was like, I'm not getting up. And then it was like me trying to stop breastfeeding, but it was actually him that

dictated it because I wanted to go to six months. and he just kept looking at my boob, like going, why do you keep shoving your boob in my face? I don't want. And it was like, my son was telling me he wanted to stop breastfeeding. It was really bizarre because I don't think I was quite ready. And in the end I got mastitis because of it. And I didn't have that with my first, because he decided rather than me. And it was like trying to decide what was right, but you're right. Like what's wrong with comfort? And it's okay if they're using you as a dummy. Because if you can cope with that, that's okay. Because that's such a lovely bond. So basically you said that you wanted to breastfeed for six months.

But you also knew that you had to go back to work. And I think this is a really, I mean it's a big thing. I'm very functional. Like I will never go for a massage for the relaxation. I'll go for a massage if I've got backache. I treated breastfeeding the same. It was never emotional for me. I know a lot of a massage for the relaxation. I'll go for a massage if I've got backache. I treated breastfeeding the same. It was never emotional for me. I know a lot of people feel it's bonding.

I had no issue bonding with my child. For me, I felt like a cow and it was very, very functional. I knew I was only breastfeeding because I wanted to do that for the baby, but it was nothing to do with me. I did not enjoy it. It wasn't something that felt special or any, I didn't hate it.

It, you know, felt very natural and all of that. And, you know, I wasn't, it's just, it was very functional because that's how I am as a character. I'm very, very functional. So how did you stop with Ariana? You said with Rafi, he just decided to stop, but did you, especially that Ariana was your first,

did you feel like, oh my goodness, I'm going back to work and I need to stop? No, mean i'd introduced the bottle quite early on i mean it was hard she went on a bottle striker eight weeks i'd introduced i started pumping 11 or 10 11 p.m every night i'd hired one of those hospital grade medela pumps which my doctor friend had said hire one of those it's the best thing you'll ever do so at 10 o'clock at night i used to pump every night so that my husband could do that feed so he could have a bit of time with her. I could get a break. And so we'd introduced the bottle really early on. I mean, with my son, it was completely different experience. He was an on-demand feeder. I had so many comments about why

I was on-demand feeding when they had seen my first baby had been this model three-hourly textbook baby after three weeks. And my son was not that at all. He latched the moment he came out and we had a horrific kind of emergency C-section situation. He latched immediately. So totally different, but was one of the, it was so demanding. He wanted to feed every hour, every half hour, sometimes for six, you know, for five months, he was just attached to me. And I found that exhausting with a three-year-old already. Absolutely exhausting. So it was really different with Ariana because she was already used to the bottle.

It was kind of a really easy transition. I didn't get mastitis. I just took one feed off at a time. Also, six months, she'd started eating. So that really helped. I think it was a good time because the food was playing a part. So she needed less milk anyway. And kind of, it was kind of all, it all worked out well. Whereas with my son, it's like, he, he was just, he was, it was really, that was a bit tougher.

And I got mastitis. And I think that was really, really hard. I suddenly understood why people used to say giving up and planning how you give up is quite hard. I didn't quite realize that until my second because he was a different feeder. He was very underweight as a newborn. And I think he was feeding, feeding, feeding. And I was aware he was very underweight because he hadn't developed in the last three weeks. And I therefore wanted to, you know, how could I not feed him on demand? And so some of the comments of people going, why are you feeding him? Why don't you put him down? Because you need to, you're spoiling him. And you know, the midwives will tell you, you can't spoil a baby in the

first three months. I have no issue. I really believe in the fourth trimester, really believe in that. I really believe you cannot spoil a baby in the first three months, probably even later, but it depends on your thinking and situation of what spoiling is. And I will feed on demand. If a baby asks for milk, I will feed. I will feed. You know, my kids are the same today. They eat all day nonstop. When you're talking about, you know, comments, did it ever get to you people saying, you shouldn't do this or you can't do this? Because you sound so confident and headstrong that I wish, in a way, I wish we were all like you. Because then, I mean, we'd be much more confident in the choices that we made. That's what I kind of get from you, that you're like, yes, I've done control crying.

Yes, I've done this. Yes, I chose to stop at six months. And you seem how we all should be. Like, this is my decision and it's not right or wrong and it's my decision and that's that I think I had confidence of what I was trying to achieve and my knowledge based on my mum's knowledge so when other people were giving me advice from a non-medical point of view of course it got to me especially when you've got your hormones raging and you have the hormones till well, you know, after breastfeeding, they don't leave you. And so, and it's not, I can blaming the hormones, but that does make it trickier, doesn't it? Because I was a little bit more sensitive during

that time. It was tricky, but I, because of that confidence in my mom and what I would always go to her going, look, this person is telling me this. And she goes, look, they will tell you this. That's life. You're going to always have to deal with unsolicited advice. But you, as long as you feel comfortable with what you're doing, you're doing the right thing. She just always said, trust your gut. And I'm so glad she said that to me because, you know, when I was 37 weeks or 38 weeks, no, it was 39 weeks with Rafi. I couldn't feel him moving. And I remember that. And I remember my mum saying, go with your instinct, go and get him checked out and all of that.

And it, you know, turned into an emergency C-section situation. Oh, wow. So based off your gut, you went in. Do you mind me asking about your experience? Yeah, I couldn't feel him moving. And he was a really wriggly baby. And I just suddenly, and I'm really, was really active and running around after a three-year-old. So you don't really notice in a way.

But I sat down and I kept prodding my stomach and then he'd kind of move. So I called my mom and she said, well, sit down, have a cup of tea, have something sweet, like a, you know, Kit Kat or something. I'd heard her give other people that advice before because she said, you're so busy moving around. Sometimes you put them to sleep, you rock them to sleep. And that's why they're up at night. So she said, just have a sit down. And then if you're still unsure, just go and get him checked out. And then I went to the hospital and just got myself on a monitor. Didn't take a single thing with me because I had no expectation that I wouldn't be coming back home. And they could feel a heartbeat. So they were kind of okay about it. And then they kind of went, hang on a minute, it's a bit irregular. This doesn't seem right. We need to take you down to the labor ward. And as

soon as they said labor ward, I was so upset because I would have been planning for a home birth, which my doctor was a bit horrified to hear actually, but I had been because my first birth had been an induction and I really wanted a water birth I knew I wanted a water birth I've always relaxed in a hot bath or a shower and I knew that would be a good pain relief for me and the first birth was an induction I've never gone into labor and I was quite upset about that that I didn't have control that and I I blamed that in a way rightly or wrongly and I you know that that's why she didn't latch because the oxytocin thing yeah she didn't because I I never went through labor I had to be induced and I felt that ruined the first three weeks in my experience with her

so I had gone for hypnobirthing I'd planned for a home birth we bought the tarpaulin to like put around the house and I knew that if I in an emergency situation, I'd end up at a hospital. I also knew I had a midwife mom. So I wasn't so worried about everything. And it was actually quite nice planning for a home birth because the midwife visits were at home, which made life easier, and all of that. But you know, I, as soon as she said labor ward, I kind of got a bit upset, because I just thought, I do not want intervention this time. You know, I really, really wanted everything to be quite holistic. You know, I'm a woman that has done yoga since the age of 10. So I've been doing it for 30 years. You know, I really come from that kind of holistic approach. My mom is a aromatherapist. She was one of the first reflex zone therapists in this country,

baby massage. Like I really come from that background where I kind of don't like intervention if it can be avoided so to go from that for someone going well you need to go to the labor ward and I and I looked at the cons and I and then the consultant asked me she said I need to break your waters and I went no and she said why not I said because if I break my water you break my waters I have to give birth today and I don't want intervention and I don't want a c-section and then she looked at me and she goes well that's up to you but I need to figure out what's going on and then I looked at her I said well tell me straight tell me straight and I don't know if you want to hear this Ashley actually I do want to hear I said tell me straight why do I need to have a c-section if you break my waters and something happens so I said

she goes let's do it one step at a time. Can I break your waters? I went, okay. She broke my water and I'm shaking. I'm physically shaking that fight or flight response. I can see it happening. And the hypnobirthing, I knew about it. I knew that had happened the first time around that my body had gone into spasms, even though my mind was fine. My body basically was just reacting to everything. So everything had shut down in that induction. And that's why I'd ended up having to have an epidural because my body would not relax in that situation. And the same was happening again. And so you're sort of getting flashbacks. No one's there. My mom isn't there. My husband's on the tube trying to get to the hospital.

And she broke my waters and there was meconium. And we all know when there's meconium, the baby's in distress. And she goes, baby's pooed we need to get him out and i went what as a c-section and i went tell me straight what do i need to do and she because this is who i am and this is why i don't want this because of this and she went if i don't take your baby out in the next 20 minutes he'll die and i went right let me sign the form and i knew and that was so good she knew me it turned out she was actually the friend of my cousin but i didn't know know that at the time, you know, but it was so it's because I was straight with her and I said, tell me straight. She told me straight. And I'm not

sure she'd have done that with most people, but I said, I need the absolute truth. And suddenly a whole sense of calm. And I think the hypnobirthing probably kicked in then. I was really, really calm. Phoned my husband saying, this is going to happen without you here. Don't worry. I'd actually chosen a hospital that my mum had used to work with because my doctor had said to me, you need to be someone with the NHS as busy as it is. You need to be someone or someone's daughter. And at this hospital, you'll be your mother's daughter. You need to go there.

So I chose a different hospital because we'd moved house. And I'm so glad he'd given me that advice because my one of my mum's best mates in nursing was on duty that day she just finished her shift she came into the operating theatre and she said to me I'm going to be your mum because your mum's not going to make it your husband's not going to make it no one's going to make this birth I'm going to be the mum turns out the trainee and niece of this I've been to school with so as I was signing the paper it's like Sonali so it was a really it turned into a really comical situation after someone just telling me this and it was just it was really funny in the end but yeah he was so underweight he was just

above incubator weight which was a bit worrying he looked like a little rat and I got someone to take a photo you're not meant to I don't think but I basically got the guy I used to go to school with to take this photo and sent it to my husband on the tube. And all I wrote was Rafi with an X. And I didn't realize that would send him into a panic because he's like, are you all right? Is he all right? What's going on? And I'd sent him into a tizz without thinking, he won't know what's going on. Why did I do that? And yeah, and then my mom came in, she parked where she wasn't meant to be. So she was getting upset about getting a parking ticket. And I'm mom just giving birth on my own don't worry about your parking ticket I'll pay the 35 quid do you want to go and check the babies okay this needs to be a sitcom it was like a

sitcom my mom is that mom she's absolutely you know when she said to me in the NCT situation beta that's for people who need friends I'm your friend she's she's so funny because she just you know she's just that comical asian mom i tell you so yeah that was my experience it's just a bit all a bit weird but i think the hypnobirthing probably helped me get through a c-section which is kind of you know as they say it preps you Welcome to Paranormal Activity with me, Yvette Fielding, a brand new podcast bringing together people's real ghost, extraterrestrial and paranormal stories, as well as getting some inside details from those who study the supernatural. I'll be listening through your paranormal stories every week and try to understand them,

as well as chatting about my own encounters with an occasional paranormal investigator too. You can find us wherever you get your podcasts from, including Apple Podcasts, Spotify and Acast. Just search for Paranormal Activity with Yvette Fielding. with Yvette Fielding. To be fair, a lot of, I didn't do NCT. Actually, my reasons was because I was still rebelling about, I don't want mum phones. I don't want to be like that.

I don't need my only common ground with people to be having a baby, which in some respect is still true. Of course, you don't want the only thing that you have in common with people to be a baby. But I also feel like maybe I didn't find like even like one or two people that I clicked with that were going through what I was going at the same time but I think you're right like I'm pleased I didn't do it I'm my brother's really close to all there and my brother and his wife are really really close to all the NCT people and they take their kids to classes and it works for some couples so so well but for me I'm a bit of a loner and

actually when the baby slept I either wanted to sleep or work or watch tv or pump you know so I kind of didn't want the pressure of having to go for coffees with people I just didn't want that I sometimes think I wish I had done it actually we moved house so even if I had have done it I would still have moved away and that's kind of like my only comfort with it but most of my friends who have done it are they yeah they did find like their people and but I tell you where it really matters is what's lovely now is I have a whole new set of mum and dad friends because their kids go to school with my kids and I think that's where it feels like a longer term relationship because your kid will be in primary school for a lot longer than they will be at a nursery or NCT. So what I would say, and maybe it's different for me, I've got a lot of cousins.

You know, my mom is one of eight. My dad is one of four. We've got a lot of family around us. And so they have a lot of cousins to play with outside of school. So I also, again, didn't need NCT friends. But you do build parent friendships once the kids are at school. And those are lovely friendships. Yeah, I mean, that seems like a very long way off for me.

Obviously, Alf's almost a year. I would quite like to make some friends, especially now Alf's getting to that age where he really needs to play. And yeah, I mean, he's got his one cousin, although they live on the other side of London, but it makes such a difference. So when has he in nursery yet because that you I'm definitely still in touch with some of the parents that my kids went to nursery with. Well that's another funny story from this week so I decided I would ring up a couple of nurseries just to see

what the situation was. Are you going to say waiting waiting list yeah so classic Ashley like everything last minute I mentioned before like routine structure it stresses me out I never plan anything so I have an amazing nanny at the moment that comes for five hours twice a week which is when I try and get all my work done so at the moment it's not very gosh what are you superwoman honestly it's a lot it's really it it's a lot I'm always like just behind with everything and it's hard because I think you need more hours from this nanny yeah so this is um this is kind of where I'm like what I'm working on it knowing that I need to be able to basically I need to be able to work more hours because it's not sustainable at the moment especially when I'm not really

sleeping as well so I rang a nursery just to inquire and they said oh so when are you thinking of him starting and I thought oh I won't I won't push it I won't I won't go straight away so I was like oh not till January and they were like oh well the waiting list is um October 2022. Yeah I was gonna say do you mean January 2023? Yeah and I was like what and? And they were like, I thought, I genuinely thought, so if you're listening to this and you're thinking about nursery, even if you don't know yet, just bring up. Put their name down before they're born. Put their name down because I was like, but what am I going to do until then?

Okay, that's where NCT Friends may have been useful. Yeah, I mean, I think if you are pregnant and listening to this, I think everyone I know who's done NCT has really enjoyed it and has, even if it's like one friend or three friends or six friends, they have met a couple of people. Whereas I feel like you're really lucky that you've got your mum with knowledge and you've got like what sounds like you've got so much family around you. Oh my gosh, yeah.

There's not enough time to see all the members of the family that's how much family we have no honestly you're absolutely right I think there's I think it's better to do it and then if you don't click with people you'll find other ways of making friends rather than not doing it but I again I moved house as well so that was my secondary reason that not just my mom it's like well they'll be in the wrong area because I moved when I was eight months pregnant so yeah but I think you know that's another thing that even you know my like I mentioned earlier my thing was like oh I don't want I don't want mum friends or I don't want our own common ground to be kids and it's like well that's all very well but I do think I was

quite naive to be like I'm not going to be like the other mums when you were literally entering a permanent state of motherhood and actually you might quite like to have the company of some of the other moms. I find that I actually find that permanent state actually really hard. Like I actually half joked a few weeks ago about how if we got divorced, we'd have the kids every other weekend. Because, you know, I know it sounds horrible. And I promise I'm not that horrible. but it is relentless, isn't it? And the thing is, I know we're lucky to be able to have kids and there's so many people who can't have kids and all of that. And you sound horribly unappreciative sometimes. But the reality is that relentlessness is actually really, really hard.

It's so hard. It's the most permanent thing. Because also, even if you love your job, which which I do I get to have a break from it you get to reset you get to recharge whereas having a baby which I'm still realizing having children it there is no break from it because even if they're not here you're still having to think about their food their clothes are they like they are oh my god you wait till the school emails it's a full-time job just answering school emails and messages honestly at the moment I'm dreaming of the school days like what they get to leave for a whole entire day nursery is a game changer there are certain milestones like the when you get to the sleeping through the night

and whenever and that has so different for you know it can happen at you know four months it can happen at four years and anything in between. It is a game changer. And the thing is, you feel exhausted right now, but your body will get you through it. And you, when you are ready to adjust stuff sleep wise, and you're speaking to the right people, your body will force you into a situation where, you know, with Ariana, I think the reason she slept so early on through the night is because my body was so exhausted. I didn't wake up when she was crying and she was in the cot next to me. And I don't think I woke up because I remember my husband saying, did you not hear her crying? And I went, no. And he just said, you were so exhausted.

And then she put herself back to sleep. So I accidentally control cried with her because she's learned to self-suit I mean she was a thumb sucker which really really helped because it was like you know she had this hands-on dummy herself it was hard to get rid of that thumb but she I was a thumb sucker so I know I can only imagine the challenges I actually didn't stop sucking my thumb till I was 13. Yeah and I think everyone kept saying that to me oh you better get her to stop she'll have to have braces I said if she needs braces it's fine because actually it meant she self-sued from the age of four months that's a dream. And do you know what it's interesting

because if Alpha if we ever try and put him down in his car or he's sleeping in his pram and we leave him in there if I'm asleep on the bed so say if I decide to have a nap I will not wake up when he cries but when he's in the bed with me I am aware of every single movement and it's interesting because there must be that sort of like built-in instinct you're hyper aware yeah if he's next to me I miss nothing and that's exhausting and that's I mean it's amazing because but that you know there must be something in it for you you know you've chosen the coast I love co-sleeping and also it's nice because I mean he he knows where my boobs are now so sometimes I don't even need to wake up yeah well that's it they're like little animals aren't they and they

call up to you I did try the co-sleeping with Rafi because I was so exhausted I asked some advice and someone said well maybe you should try co-sleeping the same midwife that my mom's best mate who helped me with the breastfeeding with Ariana she showed me how to co-sleeping the same midwife that my mom's best mate who helped me with the breastfeeding with ariana she showed me how to co-sleep when raffy was maybe like two three months and she said why don't you try this it just didn't work out he refused the dummy he just would i wouldn't settle he wouldn't it just didn't work for us but it's worked for so many of my friends it just didn't work for us i tried it and it just didn't work he just wasn't interested i think he was just better in a cot next to me that's all and also sometimes when I think okay you know I would love to have a good night's sleep I dream of the day that I can sleep with the duvet over me again especially in winter

but then I think oh but it's a bit sad for me that the moment we like start the process of moving him that's it like no more no more nighttime cuddles well they'll be child number two though so oh god I feel like I still need to and they do want you at night sometimes you know they'll they'll cry out for you in the middle of the night and you'll go and have a cuddle and then that will put them straight to bed and they will it's all still there but as you say yeah we all well I had a habit of wishing the day away but as they say you know that the days are long but the years are short. And you do look back with this fondness of kind of what you went through and what you went through

together. And it is you, you'll never regret what you're doing, will you? I do have fondness, but I'm also still, I think, still trying to come adjust to all the changes and the permanence of motherhood that I, the of having another one still I'm like absolutely not no and I was absolutely the same so many of my friends had them close together because they were like get it out the way but they had a different kind of maternity leave situation whereas I knew I couldn't do back-to-back babies because you know in my industry I might as well be dead and so I wanted a proper gap. And I thought, well, three years in my head, that would be a good gap. And I only really had Rafi for Ariana. Like, I'm really honest about that.

I'm having a second child so that she's not a loner. It wasn't for me because I really would have been happy to stop after one. You know, back in the day, I wanted three until I realized how hard it is. And also the studies say three are the hardest. You either go for two or four, apparently. One other question I did want to chat to you about before I know time is so precious. So before I let you go is you're very private on, well, online about your family and your kids. And obviously I'm totally the opposite. I always joke to Tommy that one day Alf will sue me because of how much of his life I've put online. What was your decision or what is your decision with privacy and family?

I just wasn't sure of the consequences really. And when Crime Watch was on BBC One in the evenings, I used to host that. And I think I was always kind of aware that I'm kind of doing certain shows where maybe I need to be a bit careful about my private life. But it was more, I just didn't know the consequences of it. I'm certainly not private about what my kids say or do. It's just, you'll see the back of my head. It's more about their faces, really. But you know, if they say silly comments, I mean, sometimes people say to me, oh, you know, you've just exposed your kids for what they've said. And I said, no, you know what? They're part of who I am. I'm very much show that I am a mom on Instagram, because that is such a huge part of my life that I'm very much show that I am a mum on Instagram because that is such a huge part

of my life that I can't not show you know I'd be I'd just be erasing most of my life if I didn't kind of include the kids in what I'm doing and and what I'm showing the I'm not sure whether showing their face or not showing their faces the right I just don't know I don't think there is a right answer you know someone like Rochelle Humes, I noticed sort of switched. Yeah, I mean, it's personal preference. It's such a personal thing. And I actually really like seeing other people's families on. So I always wonder whether I'm doing the right thing or not. Well, see, I was one of those people. I feel like before you are a mom, you say lots of things like

when I'm a mom, I will do this or I won't do this. And actually the majority of things I said, I would never do like, like co-sleep. I never thought I'd be breastfeeding till a year. Like there's so many things I didn't think. And one of them was, I was like, I will not be, I will not be one of those, one of those moms, one of those moms who always shows their kids online. But do you know what, even before Alf was there, I always, I only, I'm an open book naturally. Like if you see me in the street, if you see, you know, even before alf was there i always i only i'm an open book naturally like if you see me in the street if you see you know my friends my family instagram is kind of just an extension of my kind of like open nature and i think it would have been weird for you not to in a way because what we want from you and when we follow you and when we see all your stuff it as you say if you if you kind of didn't have that

part of your life on show we'd be like why what's going on that's yeah and I guess when we're gaining something from learning about your experience with Alfie and I think I I enjoy it and especially being a lockdown mum I've actually had so much like community and comfort in in that's been your NCT it definitely has like even now you know like it's so nice to hear from I've actually I have to say I've never ever felt a greater sisterhood than I have since becoming a mom and I realized how much of my kind of like misogynistic views as someone that thought there was a feminine like thought themselves as a feminist and thinks themselves as a feminist. I had so many negative impressions of what being a mum was, like me always saying, I don't want to be like one of those mums. And what

is one of those mums? And I cringe at some of the stuff I said now. We're always learning. That's what's so great about you being honest, because you're right. I've not really had a negative experience about being a mum. I just feel like we've got each other's back. And there's loads of people who try to start these kind of debates, are breastfeeding or not? And it's like, it doesn't matter. Don't even have an opinion on it. Do what's right for you as a family. If someone asks for your opinion, give it. But we're just here to support each other because we know what each other's going through and it's hard. Right. Before I do let you go, I keep saying this, but every week I ask a question

from one of my lovely listeners and I've got one this week from Emily and she got in touch via the email, which is askmumsthewordpod at gmail.com. This one is quite scientific. It's also about periods. So if you don't want to answer it, I'm going to try and answer it. She says, hi, Ashley. I hope you're well. I absolutely love the podcast. I always look forward to your new one on a Monday. I'm almost six months postpartum. My baby is exclusively breastfeeding and I've had two periods so far. On the first day of both periods, my baby boy Benjamin has been inconsolable and I assume this is to do with it being day one. Is my period messing up my supply? I wondered if you wouldn't mind please covering any issues you

found with feeding off when your period returned. My understanding is, but because I only breastfed till six months, maybe it's a six month thing. My understanding was, is that you don't really have a period while you're breastfeeding. See, I didn't have periods when I was breastfeeding until I had my COVID vaccines. And then I had two periods, one on vaccine one, one on vaccine two. Then I didn't have any again until I actually got COVID. And then when I started weaning, they slowly came back. So I think sometimes you do have periods. Yeah, they're definitely a lot less. Exactly. That's the point. I mean, that's why people are surprised when they do conceive because they used to be that myth that

you can't conceive while you're breastfeeding, which a myth but yeah you're generally the thing about your period I mean my periods have changed since I've had kids it's like really really heavy on day two now like the whole period is on day two so I feel like my body has completely changed and my periods have completely changed since having a baby. Like so much has changed. But it could be that she's different because your baby senses everything, don't they? Your baby senses everything. So you might smell different and, you know, it's just a sensitivity thing, isn't it? That there's nothing you'll be able to do about it,

but just be there for comfort if the baby needs you yeah i'm not sure i know anything about about breastfeeding affecting affecting flow in terms of infecting your milk supply but then again no i don't think there's anything and yeah i think it's more you'll be feeling a bit it depends on how you have your periods but some people feel quite off don't they on day one yeah and i suppose you need your oxytocin from yeah exactly and there'll be feeling a bit, it depends on how you have your periods, but some people feel quite off, don't they, on day one or two? Yeah, and I suppose it leads up to toasting from your... Yeah, exactly. And there'll be different hormones. And then that might be unsettling for you, and therefore might be unsettling for the baby. And in a way, it's kind of like, it's just part of the cycle that we have on a monthly basis. And, you know, it's, I would just say it's probably not something to

worry about. Because, you know, even if that if even if something's happened to your milk supply, I mean, just up your water, if something's happening, you could up your fenugreek and up your water. And I mean, the best thing is to go to a breastfeeding consultant and see if there's anything you do, because if you feel like your hormones are affecting it, then there might be something you'll be able to do knowing in anticipation of that week if you are if your periods are coming back but for most of us periods didn't come back until after we stopped breastfeeding oh well see i was going to say my advice is where if you are exclusively breastfeeding don't be shocked if your period does come back because i actually because i was quite shocked and then i started to look into oh my goodness

there's covid affecting periods but actually lots of people's do because it could be that they're not feeding through the night anymore or you know you've started if they're six months you might have started. Our periods are affected by so many factors it's they're so intuitive you know if we're not eating right or we're not sleeping right they're affected by everything which is why fertility is such a huge factor so they'll they'll be a reason and if you I always say to people if you're worried just talk to someone yeah i would say definitely reach out to a lactation consultant even amazing people online you know i mentioned stacy earlier she's at feed eat speak and she's brilliant and she's been like a really good non-judgmental uh source of well just some knowledgeable person around breastfeeding so I'd say definitely speak

to her yeah someone who's going to provide you with a bit of comfort and knowledge really as well and without judgment that's the key I'm I'm so grateful I do you know what I'm actually like blown away by like your confidence and how you speak in your like self-assurance well I don't know I think it's only because of my mum I I think it's not my confidence. It's my confidence in her. And I think that's why I feel like I am. It was so different for me to other people. And I wonder if other daughters of midwives have a similar experience. But it's just, I had a security blanket and I still do, you know, and that's where confidence comes from. I think it's amazing. And even like, you know, you put so much, you can just hear how much faith and love you have for your mum. I think if my mum had been a midwife, I don't know if I would have listened to her still. Thank you so much.

You've been a brilliant guest. And thank you to everyone listening. Thank you for having me on. What an absolute joy.