Mum's The Word! The Parenting Podcast - Sophie Ellis Bextor

Episode Date: March 7, 2022

Music ICON and mum to 5 boys Sophie Ellis Bextor joins us this week to chat all about raising boys, reactive parenting and raising your child the way you believe is right, her struggle with pre-eclampsia and juggling 5 children over lockdown. It's all in this weeks episode of Mum's the Word! The Parenting Podcast with Ashley James.Get in touch with us at [e-mail] with your questions, feedback and guest suggestions, we love to hear from you!--- A Create Podcast Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

I am so excited about today's podcast guest and I know that you're going to be as well I sometimes like think if like your younger self could know that the situation that you'd find yourself in in the future um it's just amazing she is a total icon. Big hits include Murder on the Dance Floor. She is going on tour next month with her Kitchen Disco tour, which, let's be honest, got a lot of us through lockdown. And I'm just shocked that you've actually got the time to even be on the podcast tour because you are a mum to five children, five boys nonetheless. It is Sophie Ellis Baxter, the icon. How are you? Good, yeah. Of course I said yes. Not only is it lovely to speak to you, but it's also quite nice just to shut myself in a room for a little while.

A bit of your time. How do you find the juggle with five boys? Well, I've been a mum for nearly 18 years now my oldest is going to be 18 in April so I guess it's kind of the life we know for quite a long time now and I think whilst there's more of them the essence of what you get up to and how you shape it hasn't really shifted that much so I've been lucky enough to have lots of support around me I think it helps that I love what I do and I sometimes bring them with me no two weeks are exactly the same shape but there's a sort of familiar style to what normally needs to happen when there's work and how it all kind of how it all tessellates and I think by and large I think

I have it easier than a lot of other working women because I have always got the ability to say oh no I can't work then or is it okay if my baby brink comes too and not everybody can do that so I've exploited that. It's so interesting because on this podcast my son Alph's just recently turned one and a lot of people I speak to it's about the mum identity and that journey into motherhood and you're actually the first person I've spoken to that is so into motherhood 18 years into motherhood but do you remember when you very first became a mum what that mum identity was like for you and did you like struggle with the identity well yeah and funnily enough I think it's something that's obviously whilst it's been yeah I've been a mum for a long time I think it's something that's still in my mind which is partly

why I started my own podcast where I speak to working women who happen to be mums because it doesn't really stop I don't think it's an it's an ever-evolving relationship you have with with your children but with motherhood as a role and and with your day job too yeah I do remember really well actually when I had my first because I found it surprisingly isolating in some ways I never doubted that I wanted to be a mum uh I had a lovely baby I was besotted with but I think you know it just sort of took me outside of myself a little bit and going back into work I actually took ages um I really took my time in my first I kind of got my pace up more the more

babies I had but certainly with the first one with Sonny I didn't go back to work for quite a long time really and I think part of that is because I didn't really know exactly which bits of myself still felt I don't know like I wanted to carry them forward really and which bits needed a bit of a shake-up. Did you feel pressure as a as a pop star as a female musician that did you find like you didn't know whether you could still do it like obviously I'm still in this sort of like motherhood identity thing and I was DJing like three four times a night a week before Alf came along and I felt like oh I'm just a mum now and I don't know why I have this sort of like negative stereotype of what a mum is or you know what a mum can do and I don't know why I have this sort of like negative stereotype of what a mum is or, you know, what a mum can do.

And I don't know if a lot of it comes from the industry to an extent or it's our own prejudices. But I feel like I'm coming through that side now and I'm learning who I am and which bits of the old me I want to carry forward. But when you first found out that you were having a baby did it did it worry you that how it would impact your career well I had to think about that quite early on because whilst Sonny was always a a wanted baby once I knew he was coming he wasn't a planned baby so I found out I was pregnant when I Richard and I my husband we hadn't been going out very long we've been going out for about a month and a half. Oh, wow. Yeah.

And I'd also just started promoting my second album. So I was literally releasing my first single from my second album when I realized I was having a baby. And I knew that was going to be quite a big deal for the record company to get their head around. And I didn't really know exactly how it was going to follow either either and I'm not saying I was by any means the first person to be in that situation but at that time it just wasn't really I didn't really feel like there were a lot of women out there that I saw as examples of young women in their 20s still working through parenthood and being pregnant and all these

things I don't remember feeling like I saw I was 24 at the time and I know that's not like crazy young or anything but I feel young today because I was 34 when I had Al that's funny you say that because I had when I had my third which was when I was 33 it was the first time I had girlfriends having babies at the same time as me so I think it did that seemed to be more like a more typical age to have your first baby but um yeah when I had Sonny I just just none of my friends had babies uh I didn't really know any other singers my age who had babies so I didn't really know what it was supposed to be and like you I thought well what is what is a pregnant and then a pop star who's also got a kid and actually in the press I felt like a lot of the angle of having a baby

was sort of done in a slightly mocking way almost. Like, oh, well, she's going to find it really hard to keep doing what she's doing because now she's going to be changing nappies. And everything about motherhood, as far as my day job was concerned, seemed like a very unglamorous bedfellow, you know, kind of frumpy and tricksy I think happily so there's a lot more support now and a lot more role models around that you know

can show you how you can do it and actually we're sort of better maybe at having the language of how to talk it through and what works for us yes but I know what you mean especially in the night nighttime world nobody really seems to talk that much about having kids it's so interesting because obviously like completely different genre of music and completely different person to you but another um like very successful female in the music industry um who had a baby at the pinnacle of her career recently was Cardi B and I remember in the press even though this is what like 10 well 18 years later I remember the sentiment was silly girl she's just got the taste of success and now she's screwing it all up

because she's chosen to have a baby and she's obviously like a really outspoken person I love following her on social media I think she's such a like powerful woman in the way that she speaks her mind and stands up for what she believes in. And I remember her saying like, just you wait, I'm going to prove to you that I can and I will do both. I know we're going back such a long time for you, but when you first gave birth and you didn't have friends and especially not anyone in your industry, in your world, what was that like? Were you in like a really positive baby bubble or were you thinking like, shit, what have I done or I'm lonely or a bit of everything? I think actually primarily I felt really happy.

You know, I didn't have the easiest pregnancy and I got something called preeclampsia, which meant that I really wasn't thriving. I didn't feel very good at being pregnant. What is preeclampsia? I hear it. I hear the term a lot, but I haven't, I actually don't know what it is. Or what you know when you go for your pregnancy checkups

and they make you wee in a pot. Yeah. A pot is why, because basically they're testing to see that everything, your liver is working well enough and that there's no protein going into your wee, which means basically that your placenta is not working so well with your body. So essentially what preeclampsia is, is to do with the body's rejection of the placenta. And it's not something that's unusual,

but it's most women, if they get it, they'll get it quite mildly and it can be managed. And then for some women, they'll get it more in a more serious way. And the actual breakdown of the words is that the eclampsia part comes from the Greek. I think it's for lightning, because basically if you're if it goes unchecked, then the mother can go into a coma if everything kind of escalates. Wow. So it's like pre pre coma, pre lightning strike. escalates. So it's like pre-coma, pre-lightning strike. I just thought I wasn't very good at being pregnant and I wasn't really being checked that often because of the textbooks. I was a young, healthy young woman. So that shouldn't have been something they were looking out for because typically it's older women that it happens to. And so I went for a checkup and I was actually

diagnosed with it the same week I actually ended up having him. So Sonny was born at 32 weeks and he was only three and a half pounds. And it was just a bit of a shock, but mainly I felt happy because I just fell head over heels in love with him. Suddenly all the idea you have of who this baby's going to be, I didn't know if it was going to be a boy or a girl or anything. Suddenly it's just them. And I feel like it was only ever going to be him. there he is and um I think for me and for Richard really we felt we had to set the tone a little bit because he was in hospital for quite a while and so people weren't sure whether they should congratulate us or not and it took a while to bring him home but mainly I was just really excited I was like there's my baby and

I think something kicks in a little bit really really, when you're a new mum. Well, sometimes anyway. And I just felt like, yeah, I feel like I might not know everything about being a mum, but I'm happy to take on being his mum. Oh, that's so lovely. Did you work during your pregnancy or what were you doing at the time? I know that you just brought out your second album. So I did a little bit of work, but not really. I got to the second single and then they just we just called it quits I couldn't start to get near the point I couldn't travel so yeah we just kind of stopped the album was sort of slightly stopped in its tracks it still came out but I stopped promoting really so I did I did a bit of songwriting I think when I was pregnant but you know a bit aimless and then I had him quite early as I said so it kind of all immediately I was just that all stopped and then I took ages so I, as I said, so it kind of all immediately I was just all stopped.

And then I took ages. So I didn't actually I think I started gently doing a bit of songwriting, maybe when he's about six months or something, maybe a bit older. I just really took my time making my third album because I thought, well, I've already been away for a little while, so I might as well be away for as long as I need. And I took, I think, a couple of years to finish that record. And it was really nice. But I wasn't really ready to go any quicker than that. I didn't really I needed to feel my way a little bit as I need and I took I think a couple of years to finish that record and it was really nice but I wasn't really ready to go any quicker than that I didn't really I needed to feel my way a little bit I think it's really interesting as well like you said that um you and your husband had only been together a month and a half when you fell pregnant because um Tommy and I were together about three months and it was an amazing surprise but a surprise and it also coincided with lockdown but what was it like you know I mean obviously you're still together so it obviously went really well but how did you

cope or how did you navigate the change in relationship when you became parents? Well I think in a way it sort of did us a favor in that we were always we were always three like pretty much in the get-go I felt like like we were family. Whilst I had much more experience with babies, so I was a lot more relaxed about that aspect. I'm the eldest in my family and I've got brothers and sisters on both my dad and my step-mom's side and my mum and step-dad's side. So I had all combined three sisters and two brothers, all of whom were much younger than me.

So I'd looked after a lot of small people. So I think he took confidence of that side from me, but then he's also very calm about things. I think, I don't know, it sounds really ludicrous, but I think it didn't really surprise us quite as much as it probably should have done. It felt like, oh yeah, of course that's happened. I don't know.

And it's not because we were talking about it. It was just, I think everything that had gone on between us getting together and the speed of our romance and knowing it was serious meant that it just was like, oh yeah, well, of course. And then there's a baby. I don't know. I suppose you don't know otherwise, do you?

Like Tom and I always think like, sometimes we really wish that we'd had that bit longer where it was just us, but then we obviously wouldn't wish anything away either. No, I like the fact that we were just, as I say, like a little unit you know so we've always had Sonny or the idea of him from really pretty much the beginning and I think in a weird way it kind of kind of consolidated everything really the funny thing is because because Sonny was born early we'd actually only been going out for eight months when

he was born and that was a bit like a bit silly really but um and Richard only moved in two weeks before he was born things like that so it was all very a bit scrappy but you know I think in a weird way as well it prepares you a little bit for parenthood because there's so much of it you can't plan so much of it is reacting you react to the person that you give birth to and what they need from you you know you might have ideas of what kind of parent you want to be but really you've got to find out the other side of the equation like what does this small person need from me did you know that you wanted a big family I think that just sort of started to happen really I mean actually for the first bit I was really I think the first baby really like it was such a big life change I didn't even think about having a baby for

ages and so there's quite a big gap between my first two years five years and it was such a big life change I didn't even think about having a baby for ages and so there's quite a big gap between my first it was five years and it was really only after that that I thought when Kit got to about three I thought oh one more would be nice and then I thought oh no I want another one and then another one each time that you have a new baby because I'm obviously I feel like the moment you have one people start to always ask are you gonna have another would you like a girl like whatever it is and I feel like I'm only just kind of coming out of the whirlwind of Alf and also I personally like don't care if if I were to have another one I'd feel really lucky if I could that I wouldn't I wouldn't care about the sex of the baby but did you find that each that each one you were more prepared

or was it like a whole new unique experience with each one um more prepared with what you mean like how your life is or emotionally yeah i can see i feel like i've been on such a whirlwind in the last 12 months which i've obviously documented on social media and this podcast. But I feel like I've been to some really dark places from when Alf was about six months to about 11 months. So now I'm coming out of it and I'm really enjoying it. But there was periods in that time where I was thinking, what have I done? And I really struggled with that new identity of who I was as a mom. I miss my old life so much. Obviously lockdown coincides with this and the world changed so much anyway that it was almost,

I just felt like a bomb had gone off and turned my world upside down. And so now when I even like think about sort of whether I would want another one or not, and to be honest, I don't know if I'll ever plan it, but did you feel that the first one was harder or that because you'd already had one that the second one was easier um or is each one like a kind of you think you've got it figured out and then a new little personality comes along and you almost have to like do it all for you I think nothing Nothing knocks you like the first one In my experience anyway Like that first baby

Like nothing Nothing ever felt as dramatic After that And And like you I definitely felt like I don't I literally don't really know who I am at the moment And I felt a bit

I felt a bit like it's a bit It sort of homogenised me a little bit I felt like it sort of knocked the corners off me little bit, like not quite knowing exactly where I was. And I think that also coincided with Richard's band. He was, he just started a band called The Feeling when we started going out. When Sonny was about, I don't know, one, just coming up to one, they signed a really big record deal and it was really exciting. And that was wonderful. they signed a really big record deal and it was really exciting.

And that was wonderful. But then I'd go to their gigs and then I'd meet people from their, you know, their PR team or their record label. And there was this sort of inference of like, well, I won't really ask you what you're up to with your work because now you're just a mum, aren't you? That's what you do. And it made me feel really weird. Like, well, of course I love being a mum, but like my day job is really important to me.

Like that's a big part of my identity and what makes me tick. So I think finding that again for myself was really significant and I really needed that. And now I'm much better at understanding that and the role that it has. What advice would you give to new mums like me or even earlier who are going through

that sort of identity battle? I think support is great and talking is great. I think the fact that you've, I bet you've found some amazing people who've responded and just to comment to something you've put has just made you feel less alone. Because I think those things knocking around your head late at night, that's tough. And I think the fact that now we've got so many forums and abilities to connect with people for those moments it's really healthy you will have helped people by being open about how you feel being open about it is a brilliant way to start don't bottle it all up no one out there feels like they've got it all the time anyway I promise you everybody's having crisis of confidence and feeling scrappy and and it doesn't really stop as well you know just because

they get older the way things they need from you you know that you are going to sort of you're not going to be a perfect parent and that doesn't really exist so you have to be kind of forgiving with yourself and then the second thing I think that really helped me was the support I had around me in terms of like well Richard obviously but my mum was really great with advice and because she was a working mother she just encouraged me to not give up being selfish enough to want the things that matter to me and I think that really gave me permission really and still does I still occasionally will have a wobble and say I feel really bad I'm about to go away for three nights and she'll say it's what you do and they'll be fine and it's it's true they are fine and it is what I do

they will just accept it won't they are fine and it is what I do they will just accept it won't they like anytime my parents were working I never thought it was just what they did mum and dad go to work exactly it's always worse in your head and those bits when you're doing what you do they're really significant for you and they mean a lot and for them it's just you know what you did the other night they're not going to think about it at all and um yeah so I think that's really important but But I think, yeah, I think mainly actually it's probably the talking. I think that's probably the best thing really. I know when I had Sonny, I did feel quite cut off. I had no mates. And because he was born early, I hadn't done

NCT. I wasn't a member of any local new mum groups. So I just didn't feel like I knew anyone. And my girlfriends, girlfriends you know they were all in a different life stage then and so when we'd meet up for supper and for me that was a big deal that I'd gone out and I knew I was missing bath time and bedtime and then if they'd turn up 20 minutes late they'd be like oh sorry I'm late and to me I was like you don't understand I could have read the bedtime story if I'd known you're going to be late that kind of thing but yeah but you know everybody has their own thing going on so I think I think having a bit of companionship is really invaluable actually so just find a couple of people that you feel happy confiding in and then and then do it as often as you need I feel like there's really good um like places to meet people now that probably

didn't exist yeah and like for you as well, whether that's social media or I think there's a really great app called Peanut or even just like Facebook support pages. I feel like you can really find people that are much more aligned with you and your interests who live nearby. Exactly. No, that's really good.

Yeah. Obviously you became a mum to five boys in 2019, and then we entered lockdown in March 2020. How did that change your world? And how did it feel really different raising a baby in such different circumstances? Because obviously, I've never known anything different. And people will always say to me, I feel so sorry for you that you had to be pregnant or do it in lockdown.

But at the time, I was like, well, I don't really know how it would be any different. I mean I suppose with the lockdown and with the pandemic in general I think the hardest aspects were probably trying to make sure my kids felt safe and happy and secure when Richard and I didn't really know what the hell was happening and where everything would head and obviously that goes from the practical you know all my work's gone and what do I do about that and then the really personal stuff like worrying about our parents and all that kind of stuff but we just spoke to them um tried to make sure that we kind of got into some kind of shape of the day which happened happened quite naturally, I think.

And actually took a lot of pressure off at the beginning when we were trying to do the homeschooling and all of that. That was actually the worst bit. And I look back because everything was really new and different. And, you know, if I wanted to homeschool my kids, I'd already be doing it. I already knew that was not something I was keen to do. So suddenly finding yourself trying to keep an eye on. And I think at the time I'm trying to remember what was going on so yeah one approaching GCSEs one last year of primary one sort of middle of primary one in nursery and one little one crawling around terribly it raised really different stages different levels of uh competency when it came to, you know,

working independently and that kind of stuff. And I was like, what am I doing? This is actually absurd. Occasionally I'll find myself thinking that, you know, there's a woman who lives in my head and she's, she's very similar to me in that she's got the same number of children and similar setup, except that she gets everything done really well. Like she's excellent at it. And so whenever I get stressed or something goes wrong, I feel that I've failed against this miniature perfect person. And then every once in a while you have to remember that, like that literally doesn't exist. And, and it's like, you know, what am I doing? It's not like I can look to how someone dealt with the last pandemic. You this is this is something new this is a unique experience no one really knows what's going on so it's more important that we're all happy

that we're focusing on what's really important and then the kids sort of started finding their own projects doing their own things and actually I look back on on it and find that actually we'd been we were really quite creative like not I'm not saying it was that you know anything wonderful but we were just doing the things that made us happy. So lots of drawing, lots of hanging out in the garden, lots of playing, lots of making stuff. And that was actually, it was quite simple, but it's kind of what we needed, I think,

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Peloton All Access Call yourself a runner. Peloton all access membership separate. Learn more at onepeloton.ca slash running. So it's such a weird time. And I think it's really interesting that everyone just has their like really unique and personal experiences. Obviously, I was pregnant, so I didn't have to do homeschooling. And I just thought I was scared and worrying about my family. But I can't imagine having to navigate being a mom and be the voice of calm to your kids at the same time when you're like panicking yourself. when you're like panicking um yourself and I also loved seeing you know so many people just did so many like wonderful and creative things and you being one of them with your your kitchen discos and I'd love to talk to you about that because I know that you're obviously going on tour which I

just think is the most amazing thing it's testament to like finding the positives I suppose in like scary times because yeah I think it's great like how did how did the kitchen disco sort of idea come about and kind of escalate into what it is now that's a national tour I know it's quite barking really um so at the beginning of the first national lockdown we'd already been on our own mini one because one of the kids had been sent home from school with a cough the week before and this was at the time when obviously nobody had any tests or anything so if anyone had any symptoms it was like you better you better go home and isolate and so should everybody that you've been in touch with so so I was feeling absolutely useless actually you know I could

see all the diaries the gigs of the diary like falling away like dominoes and um I thought oh I kind of want to connect with people and reach out but I don't know how to do that I can't accompany myself on anything this is a bit useless and Richard said why don't we do one of your party sets that would do a gig we'll do it live on Instagram and we'll just use the sound system in our kitchen and see what happens and I thought oh that's that's really loopy but I haven't really got anything else I'm up to. And so we set about planning it. And at the time, yeah, Mickey was 14 months old. So he was crawling around the floor and the kids, I don't really know if they have much idea what we were up to. I just said, you know, you can come if you want. Let's dress you up.

They just gave us something to think about. And after we'd done the first one, I was pretty sure people were going to make fun of me because I thought, I thought it looked pretty insane to be honest. And it kind of was quite insane, but people were really warm and they, they seemed to, you know, I just got these, this wall of like warmth from people. And I thought, oh, that's nice. Maybe other people are quite enjoying that feeling too. Let's do it again next week. And then we just didn't really question it. It just became the thing we did every Friday. And I think it just gave us a lovely distraction. And also as a family, that is how we sort of deal with stuff. You know, I thought people, maybe like me,

they didn't, not everybody needed to kind of indulge in feeling sad and pensive. Like we were doing enough of that by ourselves. I just wanted to have half an hour of just something other, like something silly and daft and a bit irreverent. And, and, and for the kids, I didn't, I didn't care if they, you know, wanted to dress up or whatever. I just wanted them to have this space where they could just let some of the tension out, you know, and jump around and have their mom and dad a bit

distracted. It's just really good for the stress, really good and fun and then we'd have a cocktail and maybe a takeaway and it was like just something I looked forward to plus it helped us remember it was Friday otherwise it was just you know a day and another day and I was learning lyrics to new songs and so for the tour I would always have gone on tour at some point this year but doing the kitchen disco tour is like I must confess I feel quite you know I've got quite a selfish reason for doing it really because while I was doing these gigs and singing into the back of Richard's phone I just thought I just want to see everybody I want to see who I'm singing to I want to experience it with with the crowd you know with people so so yeah it's going to be like really special I think because it's kind of the end of the

the end of the sentence it's like the bit I always promised myself I'd do if we could so I'm like really glad we can are your kids doing it as well nah I mean I think I think it would be actually just too much for me to handle if they were also crawling around the stage and climbing up stuff you know it was touch and go with the the Instagram gigs and remember they were actually only about 25 minutes long. They're quite dinky. And the thing with that is I'd always reassure myself every week before we went live, like we can just stop if something goes wrong.

If something goes wrong with the tech, if one of the kids does something stupid, we can just stop. But with the gig, I feel like people might not be so sympathetic if I just come on for 25 minutes and then call it a night if one of the kids like picks up a drumstick and starts beating up another one or something so so funny what's it like um as a mum to five boys because I feel like I'm still getting

my head around the fact that I'm like the responsibility I feel as a mum to a boy and especially when whenever you know like you read about like bad things that happen like violence against women there's always this meme that comes around that says protect your daughters and then it's crossed out and it says educate your sons and I think I probably would have like thrown that around really loosely before I was a mum to a boy and now that I am a boy mum I'm like okay but what does what does that mean and how well like what advice can you give as um I mean you're a mum to five boys so it's a huge responsibility it is but I think you know firstly I think the time I was most aware of of what gender

I'd had in a way it was when I had my first before he started articulating himself because obviously especially with your first so much is made of all we're gonna have is a boy or a girl and then when they arrive you know even if you haven't got your baby with you that's the thing you can talk about oh you've had a boy and then there's all these expectations of what a boy is or what a girl might be and And as soon as Sonny started becoming his little self, I realized that a lot of those things didn't really, they weren't really part of him, you know? And then I started to get almost a bit frustrated by it because I thought I'm looking at all these mainly really ugly boy clothes that sort of suppose a certain version

of a little boy that I don't feel I've had. I don't think I've had that guy. I think I've had someone different. And then as it goes on, you know, more and more of their personality comes out. You know, you realize that all that stuff about educate your sons, that's obviously, I totally agree with that, but I think you'd want to do it anyway, because you've got your own small person and it's really instinctive to want to make sure that they feel equipped to deal with the world and you want them to feel empowered and you want them to feel knowledgeable and you don't want to you want them to be nice people and you want them to be empathetic and kind and thoughtful and I think it was quite instinctive to start telling Sonny about different experiences I had, you know, age appropriate things.

But, you know, he's nearly 18 now, so I think he kind of knows most things about me, really. I think, you know, you instinctively want to raise someone that's that's kind and considerate. So I don't think I don't think I'd need a hashtag to want to do that anyway, really. I don't think I'd need a hashtag to want to do that anyway, really. And actually, I think that for young kids now, their whole language around those topics is really great. It's much, much better than it was when I was at school. So, you know, with Sonny, he's he's brilliant when I talk to him about all sorts of things. And, you know, he's very calm about talking to me about stuff. And, you know, I know they've had chats about consent and stuff like this at school

and about gender identity and all of this stuff. And he, we have great conversations. And sometimes I've, he's educated me about stuff or helped me see things from a different way. So I think really, or help me see things from a different way. So I think really, I think you have to remember that, yeah, of course, you're his mum, you know, there's lots of stuff that he'll look to you for, but actually you don't have to be all things to all people. And so long as they've got lots of people around them,

they can talk to and experiences and, you know, friends and all this, there's a lot of voices that they'll get and they'll actually be reinforcing very similar themes because it's something that's very much thought about now so I think you know it's not all on you is what I'm trying to say it's so interesting isn't it because yeah you I feel like um obviously Alf isn't at school yet he actually started it at the childminders and today's his first like proper big day so I'm actually like I keep looking on my phone because I'm like a bag of nerves because it's such a scary thing he's only doing two days a week but um it's it's his first experience of going off into the world and connecting with people that aren't aren't mom dad family friends

it's exciting and it's scary but it's interesting what you're saying about even around about the sort of gender stereotyping because the world's obviously moving very quickly and and I love I love how things are progressing and I wish that some of those topics and the conversations and I wish that there'd been less stereotyping about what a man is and what a woman is when I was younger. But I also feel a bit like I'm watching it on the peripherals. But it's interesting what you're saying that I forget that he's going to be going to school in these environments. So he'll he'll be teaching me a lot of these things. Yeah, you can definitely have quite open conversations and it's nice.

And they get older. It's really nice. I love I love talking to Sunny about stuff what do you think your favorite stage of motherhood was or has it varied with each child oh I think I mean objectively I've always rated the age of three just because I think they're really good company at three they're like that's what my youngest is now and he's they're kind of uninhibited and a bit a bit loopy because they just have all these creative ideas and want to do all sorts of imaginative play and they've got the language to be able to tell you what they want to do but they're completely untethered by any sort of self-consciousness and so we have a lot of fun and he wants to play all the time and he makes me laugh and he's a bit of a sponge as well so I find that age really lovely but then

but then I love it when they get older and you can have different chats the hardest bit is probably when they're sort of in that limbo between child and sort of adolescent just because they they kind of want to be all things at the same time we want to be feel safe and act little when it suits them but they also want to have the independence and you know look to the next bit so that's kind of the most sort of like that's the most like ice skating you know that's the bit where you're you can fall over really easy but but actually for the most part I think there's there's lots of good bits that happen along the way so no I think I think it's all good really and as I love I love having someone who's nearly adult I'm like I'm sort of impressed he all he has to do is just exist's nearly adult. I'm like, I'm sort of impressed.

All he has to do is just exist and get older. And I'm like, wow, I did that. I take all the credit for him being near adult, basically. Is it weird to think that you're a mum of an almost 18 year old? Is it just because people say it goes really quickly? Or do you feel like you can't remember life before it? I don't know if I feel like it's gone by that fast but it's just really satisfying and I love the fact that you know he's he's really funny and so there's something really lovely about when your kids have a view of something or an observation or a joke and it's really fresh and you just think

oh that that's completely just you because especially with your first you spend so much time picking up on everything and oh who do they look like and I think they've got this person's eyes and this person's nose and oh they take after you with this that and the other and then you realize actually no they're just mostly just them actually I you know they're their own person and that's that's really great and then you're just exploring who that person is and what they need from you I don't even think my kids I don't think I'm exactly the same mum to all of them even because some of them need slightly different things from me that's interesting because also I feel like becoming a mum I mean I found it the most incredible like supportive like community I feel like I've entered

this like real world of like sisterhood I think that you can live an amazing life without children, but it's like if you decide to have children, it's like you're sucked into this coexisting world where everything's the same, but nothing's the same. And I've just found it crazy. But then I've also found it quite difficult to adjust to sort of like the opinions and the judgment and the controversial topics that I had no idea that were controversial such as like sleeping and

how you feed your child did you did you put pressure on yourself with like things like feeding or sleeping or did you find that you relax with each baby or did they all have like a unique journey? Probably relaxed more with each baby yeah I feel I feel like um I probably scrutinized my choices a lot more when I had one or two and I think I think actually um the most miserable week I had with my first was when I tried to follow this awful book someone had given me called the contented baby book and I don't I don't think it's fashionable anymore but then it was very was when I tried to follow this awful book someone had given me called The Contented Baby Book. And I don't think it's fashionable anymore, but then it was very fashionable.

And it's this woman called Gina Ford and it's very sort of by the clock, went to feed and went to do this and went to that. And it's completely joyless. So the week I tried it, you know, Sonny was miserable, I was miserable and I put the book in the bin and I sort of didn't really look back actually. It was what am I doing and I think the thing you realize is that the people who've

got very strong opinions about how and what you should be doing with your child that is all about them and not at all about you and I've sat next to people that I will probably never see again at some I don't know some dinner party or something. And they can have quite strong opinions about, I don't know, how it should be done. And I end up feeling like, why don't you just tell me what you want me to say? And then you can go home happy thinking that's what I do. And I can go home to my real life where I'm happy with how I do things. And both of us are okay.

Like, I don't know. I just feel like as long as you've got good intentions there's so many ways to do it and isn't that joyful because then you walk into a room like when you're with your mates I bet you don't think oh actually I can kind of tell that you um were breastfed till you were four and I can kind of tell that you only had formula from birth like it's just a load of bollocks like you know it's all gonna pretty much everybody's gonna hit pretty much the same milestones in their own way and it's it's just gonna happen and then and then no one will ever ask those questions ever again I mean do you know when any of your mates started solid food or how long they slept for when they were

10 months like it's just it's funny because when you're in it as well and when everyone's giving their opinions that you are it feels so very important but you're right like I mean I think I was formula fed and I don't have any like major health problems at this stage I'm 34 so yeah I feel like that's really like nice solid advice for people listening as well to just do what feels right and also people who made the formula spent hours trying to you know days weeks months trying to make sure that what they created was exactly right for that for a baby like that's their job so don't worry you know there's people out there there's lots of support lots of professionals I mean of course if you're not happy if something's

not working for you go seek advice that's wonderful I've done it many many times over and I love feeling like there's a team of people that I can speak to about things like that's that's my community that's how I do it if I've got a problem with something I I go who can I speak to and I take great solace in that but but if something's working for you and your baby's fine and you're fine then just keep doing it it's all good I feel like that's like really reassuring even though when you say it it's like of course it's it's so obvious and also we've all lived adult lives without anyone having such a strong opinion over how we are adulting you know like some people love to travel some people love to dance some people hate dancing and nobody's like oh I can't believe this and then for some reason it's almost like with motherhood, you can become a bit tunnel visioned with it.

So it's nice and exciting. It's an exciting reminder. It's the first time I've spoken to someone with older kids and it's the first time I've started to visualize. I wonder who Al's going to be when he's 18 and also who I'll be when he's 18. That is the absolute joy of it like that's kind of how I see my role really is just helping them come the sort of the happiest version of whoever it is they're destined to be anyway I that's what I said before about it's so react it's so much more reactive parenting than I realized you know they are who they're going to be and I'm just I'm just the one that's sort of trying to help them get there really so yeah oh, yeah. Oh, it's so nice. Every week I always read out a question or a comment from someone who has written in.

I'm very excited because it's our first ever voice note. Hi, Ashley. My name's Katie. I'm listening from Northern Ireland. I absolutely love your podcast. I find it really relatable. I have a 10 month old baby boy who is exclusively breastfed. So I've always followed all your Instagram stories and your posts and just like most of the stuff you talk about, I could write it myself. So just

thank you for being so open and so honest about motherhood and about breastfeeding and I've always found it really reassuring hearing your stories and just knowing that so many other people like you go through all these same challenges in motherhood and I loved your podcast with Tommy it really reminded me of me and my husband and I just felt like again we could sit and say those things ourselves and and yous are both just so humble and just so genuine and I really love that um and it's really really really reassuring hearing about your um stopping breastfeeding story and that's something that I've been really nervous about as like you my baby feeds all through the night um you know six or seven times sometimes he'll take a feed and that's really really hard being the only one to be there for him and the only one that can settle him so like

oh yeah it's really really tough but it's really good to hear that you were able to get through that and you were able to stop successfully and not that you've stopped because pumping is still breastfeeding for sure um but it's just yeah really reassuring story and it's made me feel like when the time comes for us to stop that I can get through it because I've been so nervous for that um so thank you for sharing that story in so much honesty and so much detail and yeah just thanks again for your podcast and your Instagram um and just being so open and so relatable it's just been a really nice sort of place for me to go um to your instagram page or your podcast when i'm feeling a bit low in motherhood or feeling a bit alone

and so thank you for that and i hope that you're doing really well thank you so much and if you do want to leave a voice note that will potentially get played out maybe you need some advice maybe you're in tunnel vision with new motherhood and you want advice, whether it's from me or hopefully a guest that knows what they're doing way more than me, like Sophie, the number is 07599927537. Or of course, if you're listening on Apple Podcasts, then you can leave us a review if you write it out. And if you do want any advice then you can write it there as well and we can always read it out and so if i've loved chatting to you but thank you so much for your time especially as a mum of five i don't know how

you're doing the juggle and and i would say well i don't you know i'm not i'm not an expert i have experience but i definitely know i'm still learning as well just feeling my way along I feel like that's the joy of it and you've honestly I feel really excited like even to go pick up my little boy from Chalkover you've made me really excited to think of the future because I feel like you only really think of or I've only really been thinking of them as who they are now and yeah you've definitely given me some nice food for thought and I'm very grateful for your time. That's so sweet. Well, whoever he is,

there's a lovely quote in the film Lost in Translation where Bill Murray says, you have your kids and then they turn out to be the nicest people you've ever met. So, you know, you really like them even when they might cause you

just bear like some time and stress. But ultimately you're like, they're the best people they could become your favorite people for sure yeah I feel like I'm I'm sure that there'll be times where I'll be like Sophie what should I do now and I'm at this this this stage but feel free you can add me to your community that's absolutely fine I've done that for people as well I'm very happy to do it it's a nice feeling actually because I think I know how significant those things are.

And maybe I'll need your advice about something one day. That will be the day that people start having to be for advice, especially with grandparenting. I look forward to the day where people trust me. They think I might know what I'm doing. Thank you so much. And everyone listening, I hope you enjoyed the podcast as much as I have.

And if you have enjoyed this episode and you think that someone might benefit from listening to it, then of course, spread the news, tell someone about it. And I'll be back same time, same place next week. Lovely. Thanks so much. Thank you.