Mum's The Word! The Parenting Podcast - Stacey Zimmels on Breastfeeding

Episode Date: July 10, 2022

This week on Mum's The Word, Ashley is joined by lactation consultant, founder of Feed Eat Speak and speech and language therapist Stacey Zimmels! Stacey busts some myths around breast and bottle feeding, shares her experience of working with Ashley and also tells us how she ended up breastfeeding for longer than she expected.If you want to ask Ashley a question, get in touch at [e-mail]---A Create Podcast Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

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Peloton all-access membership separate. Learn more at onepeloton.ca slash running. It's been one of those days today, guys. Can you believe I was actually late to my own podcast because I got the dreaded call. I know that you will all know what I'm talking about, depending how old your child is. I got the dreaded call from Al's childminder to come and pick him up because he had a temperature. And I mean, he seems fine at home. It's amazing how much his attitude's changed, but obviously it's thrown my day into chaos.

Luckily, Tommy's working from home today, so he's taking one for the team and he's taking him out for the next hour so I can chat to my guest today because this is actually, I think, one of my most requested topics and one that I think before I had Alf, I didn't quite envision how controversial it was, how much it takes over your life in whichever way you do it, and just how much emotion there is in this journey. Well, let me start by introducing my guest. So she is a feeding and swallowing specialist, speech therapist and lactation consultant who has got me through some of the toughest moments of my own feeding journey from the beginning to the dreaded biting and also just to kind of reassure me in a very non-judgmental way about what the

right thing to do was and to help bust myths. And there are so many myths with feeding a baby out there. So she is the owner of Feed Eat to Speak. You can find her on Instagram with the same name. She helps families and children get the help they need when they need it. And she is also a mum of two little ones herself. So I honestly don't know how she juggles it and manages to pick us up as well. So Stacey Zimmerl, thank you so much for finally being a guest on today's show. Thank you so much for having me. I am delighted to be here. As you know, all things feeding, I am in my element talking about them. So I can't wait to get chatting really. I think I'd love to begin by saying, by the way, this is a totally non-judgmental zone.

And from my own personal experience with breastfeeding, I did find it quite tough to navigate my own experiences and emotions and also the kind of controversy or I shouldn't even be controversy, but there is a real sense of judgment. And by the way, on both sides, I might add, and as I talk about a lot, my sister gave birth a couple of months after me, and she tried for a good few months to breastfeed and it was causing her so much mental and physical discomfort until she got to the point where she went down the formula route, which was absolutely the best thing for her and for my nephew Jasper. So I just want to say on any topic and also one of the reasons that I love Stacey and why she helped me so much in my own journey was because, and actually I'll say this personally to you, you have never been judgmental. You have never

made me feel like you're on like team breast or team bottle, which the fact there is a team anyway, there shouldn't be. No, I mean, I think ultimately for those of us supporting women, mothers, parents who feed, it's not about us, it's not about what we want, it's about what they want, it's about us listening, and it's about us supporting you, your sister, whoever it may be, in whatever way they want. And it's really, really important that we do that. And so many people, women, don't get to access support. We can talk about that a little bit more, particularly in the UK, etc. But for me, when they do come to my door, it's not about me.

It's about you. Why do you think there is so much emotion and yeah like separate teams around the phrases like fed is best breast is best why does it stir up so much emotion for both sides yeah I think it's really complicated but in lots of ways and then in other quite simple. And there are people like Professor Amy Brown, who work in public health, that have actually asked mothers, asked parents about their experiences, and have come up with the answers to these. So I'm not going to take the credit for them, particularly myself. But I think the biggest single thing is that, you know, if we look at the data in the UK, something like eight out of 10 women initiate breastfeeding,

i.e. they want to breastfeed. And actually at six weeks, based on the last infant feeding data we've got, only like 26% of women are exclusively breastfeeding. So what we've got here is a lot of push for breastfeeding, a lot of messaging from public health, from the NHS around breastfeeding a baby know, a lot of messaging from public health, from the NHS around breastfeeding a baby and all the different health advantages it offers you, etc.

And then when push comes to shove, women want to do it. Great. You know, that's what our bodies are designed for. But we're not told really the practicalities of it consistently or in a way that helps women understand that when it's tricky or challenging, that actually that's quite normal, i.e. we're setting us up to think that we're failing from day dot. And the second thing that the government don't do is provide support or funding to take action and provide the overall health system with the benefits that could come from breastfeeding and to support women to actually achieve those goals. There's 80% of women that start breastfeeding because they want to. So when things are tricky or tough, like they are for many of us, including me at the beginning,

there's nowhere to go for help. So your left feeling might be failed and then effectively not having a choice because it's been taken away from you. And what that then leads to is a lot of pain, a lot of anger, a lot of grief, a lot of different feelings, but you're still up against the messaging that's coming across from wherever it's coming from around, you know, breast is best. And then suddenly what does that make you that you don't want the best for your child? You know, there's a lot of really strong, conflicting emotions there. So I think that's sort of the crux of the issue.

And it's very much about lack of support and lots of very big feelings for women that often stay with them for years because they wanted to do something and they weren't able to. Yet they're told that it was the best thing that they could or should do. Yeah, it's so interesting, isn't it? Because, I mean, I stopped breastfeeding around 12 months. And as you remember, because you were a massive part of that, because for anyone that doesn't remember, Alf was biting. So he got to a point where he didn't even try to feed anymore. He was just biting and biting and biting. And then I would get upset, of course, because my nipples were like scabbed over. It was horrific. And so that would have me

on a short fuse. I felt like I was handing my nipple into a piranha tank and hoping for the best. And then all of the messaging around me was, don't react, just endure it, keep going, this stage will pass. And it got to a point of like two weeks of tears, but also not just my own tears, but Alf's tears, because he'd react to me shouting and screaming or being like, stop it. And it wasn't fair on him because he was obviously too young to understand why mummy was suddenly getting annoyed with him. young to understand why like mummy was suddenly getting annoyed with him. And I made a decision largely through having your advice as well, though, that I didn't have to endure pain. And if it wasn't working anymore, and so I stopped. And that obviously came with its own challenges being exclusively breastfed to then stopping overnight. But I now feel and I'm just

going to share this, by the way, for anyone who does feel guilt in any part of parenting, but not just feeding. But I very much feel that I know, for example, that the data says there is loads of benefits to breastfeeding until they're two or beyond. I know that. But I also know I did what was best for me. So despite knowing that data, the data that I have in my head of my own mental health, my own sense of freedom, my relationship with Alf because I was no longer having to shout at him anymore. There is not one bit of me that resents or feels upset that my journey finished sooner than I was expecting because it was right for me and my my mental health but also in the end for both of

us and it made our relationship better and I feel that that's a message that's so I guess overlooked with the sort of breast is best narrative isn't it yeah and I think the other one that you know I would like to sort of state from the beginning because obviously you did get to and not to diminish the end of your breastfeeding journey and it did end prematurely but for the women that perhaps didn't even get off to the start they may have wanted be that a day a week or a month there's a lot of feeling that they failed and I think that what we actually know and understand and especially those of us who are working and supporting women in those days and weeks and months and listening to the stories of what happened, is that, you. And you weren't able to because qualified professional support wasn't available to you in order to do it

or not available to you if you didn't find the right person or you didn't pay hundreds of pounds or whatever it is to find a private lactation consultant. And so you were failed. You did not fail. And I think that's really important for people to hear too. Do you know if other countries get it as part of their health service? Yeah, many, many. In fact, in the Western world, we've got the lowest breastfeeding

rates here in the UK. And that's lower than in the United States where women go back to work typically at six weeks and they have higher breastfeeding rates beyond six weeks than we do even with exclusive pumping so yeah absolutely god how do women go back to work after six weeks in america that is just mad i knew that their holidays were bad but i didn't realize their maternity leave was bad yeah yeah wow yeah i'd have been like bleeding at work i was talking to somebody the other day about, and they went back at four months. I was like, how did you get back at four months? I mean, honestly, women are incredible. You kind of touched on it earlier,

but you said that your own breastfeeding journey wasn't smooth sailing. Is that how you got into becoming a lactation consultant or what was your own journey? And did it change from one to two? Sure. So, I mean, I've always worked in feeding for sort of, I don't want to say, you know, show my age now. I'm happy to show my age, 20 years plus actually.

And I knew that I would probably get the lactation qualification at some point. And that was definitely made more like, yeah, I definitely want to do this after I had my daughter. Yeah, it was complicated by a traumatic birth, a long postnatal stay, IV antibiotics, jaundice, tongue tie, damage, cracked, painful nipples. I was using nipple shields for six weeks. I was feeding in pain for about six, seven weeks. And then it was fine. And then it was great even. But I went through all of that with all my skills, knowledge, and expertise, and with the best lactation consults of friends that could have been there alongside me. Interestingly, you asked about my second journey. It was

completely different. I was battened down the hatches expecting exactly the same thing. And he just fed. And even with a NICU admission for jaundice and other stuff, he just knew what to do. No tongue tie, fed. And he fed till what we call natural term. So he stopped feeding on his own when he was three and a half years old. Wow, what an achievement, three and a half. Yeah. Were you expecting, I mean, it's interesting to me that you are a qualified

lactation consultant the people around you were qualified lactation consultants and you found it that hard did it come as a shock to you because you were like at least i know what i'm doing at least i understand to look out for tongue tie all of those things yeah it did come as a shock because i think actually becoming a parent is one hell of a shock and everything else around that. And I think that I look around Instagram now and I look, you know, I wasn't even on it six years ago, coming up to seven years ago when I had her, look at people like you sharing your stories of birth and post-birth, like with such honesty and having such an amazing influence. And I didn't have access to any of that. So I think that like I knew that the feeding could be hard,

but not the concept of the fact that I could have had a traumatic birth. I didn't even know I'd had a traumatic birth until about three years later when I sort of joined at the dots and realized what a hellish experience I'd had and no wonder I had postnatal anxiety. I didn't know I had postnatal anxiety until I looked back and realized, oh my goodness, no wonder they didn't want to discharge me from the midwife at six weeks. So I had like none of this. And this is despite working with new parents, with new moms and dads for many, many years. So I don't know. I don't know if we prepare women enough to have babies and to go through the birth and to go through the postnatal period.

I think we don't. I don't think we're fearful of giving too much honest information. But I also think that sugarcoating things or not giving information is also not helpful. It's so interesting, isn't it? I was actually talking about this with a friend this weekend about we say you don't want to be like a just you wait mom. So you shouldn't just put your negativity onto like a pregnant person or a new mom. And I feel like the conversation needs to be there before people are even pregnant.

And by the way, like people could never have children, but whether you ever have children or not, it allows people to A, have more respect and sympathy and empathy and all of those things for mums, mums and dads, but especially mums. And I feel like it would make society a bit more like child-friendly. And I think we've almost been sold.

I don't know if it's gaslighting. I don't know if they were like, we need to sugarcoat this. I don't know if it's gaslighting. I don't know if they were like, we need to sugarcoat this. I don't know if it's because of Hollywood films and obviously typically male directors and male authors. But we are kind of fed this messaging that we won't be complete without children.

So we sort of think it's going to be this amazing thing. You don't know what love is until you have a child and no one really talks about all the hard things. And I found it hard this weekend. I was speaking with a friend who is having a baby and she was saying first of all she was like by the way I'm so fat I'm so fat like I've put on this much weight I think she said 22 pounds or something and I was like but it's not weight it's baby and percenter and milk and I was like don't think about it as weight you're not fat you're you're having a baby and she was like oh yeah but you know I'm gonna get I'm gonna get my body back at six weeks at six weeks and I was like but that is and I felt the set not I didn't care about getting my

body back but I was like back to exercise even from a mental health perspective back to exercise after six weeks when I remember when I went for a run at six weeks I was lucky enough to know a private health physio and she was like what are what are you doing? Why are you running? Like, come and see me. And that was when I found out I had prolapse. If I'd have just been left to my own device, I would have just been running with prolapse and making, like, it would have been dangerous for my body. But there is this complete misunderstanding that we just are back to normal after six weeks. And she was even saying, oh yeah, and you you know we really want three children and I'm a bit all or nothing so I think what I'm going to do is I'm going to have one and

I'm going to breastfeed for six months and then I'll stop so I can get pregnant so I can have it and I'm going to have three children and then I'll focus on myself again and it was so hard not for me not to say like just you wait and I was like I'm not going to be that person but like I was thinking it you might you might go through childbirth and you might have an amazing childbirth. And I wish an amazing childbirth for everyone. But also even like the casualness of, yeah, I'll just breastfeed for six months and then I'll stop.

And I was like, I bet there were like so many women, probably the majority of women who were like, I would have loved to have breastfed for six months or like, oh, maybe they thought they wanted to. And then, you know, because even what you said, what struck me is it's amazing with your first that you breastfed throughout the odds. But what I find hard is why is it that there is an expectation that we just suffer through pain as mothers?

Because you said you went through all of that for six weeks and then it was fine. And by the way, like hats off for the tenacity but that was the overwhelming message i got when alf was biting just keep keep going keep going keep going and i was like but what sorry like i i'm not literally being physically attacked maybe not like maliciously of course not he doesn't mean it but why why do we just expect mums in the same way we celebrate if someone does it with has a childbirth without pain relief why are we celebrating pain yeah I know I think there's a few things isn't there I think that often in when it comes to breastfeeding support people aren't qualified and they don't quite know sort of how to sort of fix it and

there's a lot of just sort of poo-pooing it and oh yeah it's meant to hurt don't worry your nipples will toughen up you know that sort of and that's often women to women and it's I think a reflection of just healthcare professionals often just not having the honesty to be able to say I don't know why you're in pain. That must be really difficult. I'm not really qualified to help with breastfeeding beyond looking superficially at the latch and saying, looks all right to me, but I'm going to go and get somebody else more qualified. That's what our healthcare professionals need to be saying to women, and they're not.

And I think there's a sort of feeling of like also like there is a sense, and I think there is some sort of feeling of like, also like there is a sense, and I think there is some sort of knowledge to back that up within the lactation world that often there's a lot of labor, if you like, associated with establishing breastfeeding, which for some breastfeeding people will come with pain, you know, however, with support, I had support. So I knew that I wouldn't continue to breastfeed in pain. So it wasn't like I was like, oh, you know, I'm getting the superwoman hero medal for this. It was, you know, I'm getting support. I'm working on the latch. I've had the tongue tie divided. You know, it was quite cognitive for me to know that this is hard, but I knew that it would get

better. And I knew that I was fixing the things that were difficult and other people were helping me to do that. But so we understand that. So I think sometimes what people are trying to do with the best of intentions is help you understand that sometimes the biting, for example, I mean, I'm just hypothesizing, you know, is a phase. And, you know, we know that some nurslings do bite. And typically there are strategies that can help.

And I know in our case, we tried those and they didn't help and they didn't work for you. But typically they do. So, you know, you do get through it. And that's still not OK. That is still not OK. Can you imagine if a man went to the doctor with like ripped testicles and was told oh they'll stop just keep powering through don't complain yeah just keep dipping your balls in ice and you'll be fine you know i mean i don't know i'm just trying to like equate it to something different and i think you've had experiences even with gps didn't you ashley where you were like, what? I remember when I was about three, was it five weeks postnatal? I don't even know.

Is it called five weeks postnatal? Five weeks? Yeah. Postpartum. Postpartum. Yeah, similar. I got this really itchy rash on my boob. That was when we started speaking.

Yes, it was. Through Instagram. And I was like, please help. after speaking yes it was yeah through instagram and i was like please help because i had the reddest most itchy rash across my boob and i've honestly never experienced anything like it it was excruciating and i couldn't stop itching and everyone kept saying around me stop itching i mean it's like getting a mosquito bite and being told not to itch it's like but it's itchy it was honestly unbearable and it was during lockdown and so I couldn't get a physical appointment and I actually can't I still thought maybe I was being pranked like not that I'm famous enough to be pranked it would be a really shit version I didn't think it was like Ashton Kutcher

but I rang the GP or they rang me back I I can't remember how it was. And it was a male doctor. And he said, well, I would ask you to send me a picture of your boobs, but you probably don't want to do that. Do you? And I feel like he was even making like really weird comments. Oh, that was it. I was saying, can I use this cream or I'll prescribe you this? And I said, is it breastfeeding friendly? And he was like, well, your guess is as good as mine. or I'll prescribe you this. And I said, is it breastfeeding friendly? And he was like, well, your guess is as good as mine.

And I was like, well, I actually don't want to guess. I was like, I mean, I don't want to use something that's not breastfeeding friendly that could either kill my child or like, I don't know, whatever it might be. But I was like, this is honestly absolutely mad. And in the end, I think I paid something disgusting, like 350 pounds to go see a private dermatologist and they were like oh yeah it's some kind of rash and you need a

steroids cream and that was like another 60 pounds private prescription and I was like if somebody had just seen me or like cared yeah and this is it and you you know we're in a position where you were able to do that and you had support from me who was trying to sort of figure it out. But if you're not, what's the alternative for the woman where the GP is like, I don't really care if the cream works or not. And actually, I'm not even going to differentially diagnose this rash because I'm too embarrassed to look at a breast, part of the anatomy of 50% of the population and I'm a doctor you know what hope is there I mean it's

funny in like just the most shocking way but actually it's horrific it's actually horrific Tommy was like sat there just like he was like do you want me to take over do you want me to take over because he was going to go nuts and I was like no it's fine it, he was like, do you want me to take over? Do you want me to take over? Because he was going to go nuts. And I was like, no, it's fine. It is what it is. But you do just feel totally unsupported. I know that lots of people listening will be, well, maybe some of you will be beginning of your feeding journey.

Maybe some of you are like, I finished my feeding journey and I never want to have to think about formula bottles or boobs ever again. think about formula bottles or boobs ever again. But wherever you are on your journey, what would be your advice to people who are going through the kind of struggle at the beginning and you know, the pain and, you know, you gave me so much good words of wisdom in those first few days. So what what can you say to people? And how would they know even if their child potentially has tongue tie? So the first thing I would say is that pain is not normal. Pain's not okay. And you shouldn't have to feed in pain. It's just not. So beyond 30 seconds in the first few days of the first few feeds, where it might be a bit uncomfortable when they latch because your body's just not used to it. Any other form of

pain related to breastfeeding is not normal. And so if anybody tells you it is, or if anybody looks at how your baby is latched, so assuming it's like nipple pain, for example, and says, oh, the latch looks good. It just can't. It just can't be because something to do with that nipple and that baby's mouth and the two things together are causing that pain, whether or not somebody with little to no training probably is telling you that the latch looks good. I mean, what does it say to a woman or a parent who's breastfeeding that the latch looks good? Therefore, what? Therefore, what? Now, the latch looks good, yet you're in agony every time a baby feeds. So what? What's your choice? Breastfeed in agony for every single feed for the rest of your breastfeeding journey or give up?

You know, and this is a predicament. This is a situation that many, many women are in. So I would say is if you're in pain and somebody's telling you it's normal or that everything's fine, then go and ask for somebody else to help you. And I think going backwards, if this is something that you think that you want to do, you know you want to do before your baby comes, a bit like a job, right? You're going for a job interview. You wouldn't go completely unprepared. So there is a responsibility on us to recognise that, you know, it can come with challenges. So the more you can prepare yourself antenatally, even if that's, and it doesn't have to be paid for, you know, there's lots of free resources online, my account, different accounts, you know, blogs, even classes

through the NHS. So it doesn't have to be paid for. And the only other thing I would say is find out where you're going to go if you need help after the baby's born. Because as you and I both know, Ashley, those first few days after you've given birth, you may not, you know, some of you might, but you may not be in the best place to advocate for yourself and for your baby. And so if already you have got phone number of lactation consultant, local drop-in group, where to rent a pump if you need one, because milk.com, whatever it might be, and you've just taken the time before the baby comes to have access to all that readily, and also your partner, if you have one, then I think that is a really good investment of probably an hour of your time before your baby comes so they're my sort of tips what do you think about the pressure

with babies dropping weight after birth because I feel like that's where a lot of people I don't want to say switch stop their breastfeeding journey but at least start to unexpectedly combi feed or whatever or stop because my midwife put the fear of god in me like so alf was 9.5 pounds but then in that first week so i i did actually pay for a lactation consultant before he was born just because i'd heard through lucy meck and various people that there could be complications so i thought okay well i will spend the money and obviously i recognize that that is a privilege that there could be complications. So I thought, okay, well, I will spend the money. And obviously, I recognize that that is a privilege that I could spend the money, but I did decide to spend the money. There's lots of things I'd rather spend money on, by the way. I'm not so privileged

that it's not a lot of money, but that was something I decided to do. But then when he came, I still felt totally unprepared and I was trying to remember everything. And then the midwife kept coming and putting, like, he's dropping weight, he's dropping weight, you know, he's hungry, you need to improve your latch. And then I was like, okay, well, I was told it's a bit, you know, it's quite normal for them to drop a bit of weight. But if I hadn't have had the kind of knowledge of the lactation consultant,

who, by the way, I got to come one more time because I felt really confident at the beginning. And then after that midwife visit, I felt completely demoralized and I got flustered I was like I can't remember the positions yeah I can't remember what I'm doing and also what's bloody annoying and I talk about the hyper sexual sexualization of boobs all the time you can't freaking find a youtube video on how to breastfeed because it's all balloons and buttons and knitted things it's like show me a bloody nipple like this is not porn like it's not the woman's body

is not bad but i'm sick of looking at like a little knitted dolly boob i want to see i want to see how my nipple is meant to go in the mouth and i can't because there's no nipples on the internet unless it's on a porn site which is obviously not the kind of nipple I'm actually going for yeah so yeah if people are listening and they are feeling that pressure of my baby's dropping weight I'm gonna have to stop yeah I mean I think there's a couple of things is that there's a lot of weight loss that's normal so by anything over under eight% of weight loss is absolutely fine in the first five days, absolutely fine. And even between 8 and 10, it just means that we probably need to look a little bit more closely about what is going on. If it's between 8 and 10, you don't want to weigh in necessarily before day five, because again, we expect the weight loss.

So it's just, again, arming yourself with that knowledge and information and also you or your partner if you don't feel able to in those first days you're advocating for yourself and and asking the question so if you're told something about a weight say well is it what's within the guidelines for that you know is that is that within the guidelines and often if they ask a very direct question they have to reply and say yes that's it within the guidelines? And often if they're asked a very direct question, they have to reply and say, yes, that's within the guidelines. So that's the first thing. And then the second thing is if you do find yourself in a position, which does happen where your baby has lost a significant amount of weight and therefore you need to feed your baby, which is absolutely imperative,

it's also about being aware that actually you need to do a few things. You need to make sure your baby's fed. You need to make sure your breasts are stimulated. So the two things together. So again, that doesn't mean you automatically need to supplement with formula. You might have to, and that will be really important for your baby and arguably life-saving in that situation if they've dropped a lot of weight and you haven't got enough milk for them that's exactly why we would use formula and that was a perfect situation this is by the way above 10 weight loss so not not below it but you need to be sending the messages to your breasts and what often i see is where there has been a weight loss nobody's gone what's going on with this baby's feeding?

Why have they lost weight? Let's help it. So that doesn't get addressed. And nobody's gone to the mother, what are your breastfeeding goals? What are your goals for feeding? Oh, right, you want to breastfeed, right. Well, we need to make sure baby's fed,

but you need to tell your breasts to make milk. And this is how you do it. Here's a pump, here's this, and this is how you do it. So then two weeks later, there's no milk and the baby's now not latching because they've been guzzling milk from a bottle. And in that moment, there was no support to help that person, that woman, to achieve their goals. And that's not an uncommon story at all.

And you wouldn't know that. Again, there's so much stress we put in our healthcare professionals and other circumstances, you know, you've got a problem with your bowel, you go to a doctor or a bowel specialist, you know, there's no not knowing. There's no like, I don't really know what to do with bowels or, you know, there's no like making like, you know, what to do and then it not being right. But we have got that when it comes to infant feeding. There's a lot of that that goes on. Own each step with Peloton. From their pop runs to walk and talks, you define what it means to be a runner. Whatever your level, embrace it.

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every week and try to understand them as well as chatting about my own encounters with an occasional paranormal investigator too. You can find us wherever you get your podcasts from including Apple Podcasts, Spotify and Acast. Just search for Paranormal Activity with Yvette Fielding. cast. Just search for Paranormal Activity with Yvette Fielding. I think as well, it's like the judgment. So I never really had a plan with breastfeeding. I really hoped I could do it, but I was kind of very aware that if I couldn't, I couldn't, and that would be okay. So I always had a couple of bottles of formula in my cupboard, just as like a backup. And especially when I saw my cupboard just as like a backup and especially when I saw my sister going through what she did and how much her entire world changed for the

better once she stopped torturing herself and just decided to go bottle fed and I remember sometimes feeling a bit not resentment but sadness that Tommy couldn't share the feeding journey because Alf wouldn't take a bottle or my sister or other friends who'd stopped breastfeeding could just go out for the day and not have to think about their boobs leaking or the fact their child might be hungry and I started especially the longer along the journey I got I started to feel like a lot of loneliness with it because every time I said that oh it's hard or I wish I could go away and it was kind of like well just stop then and I was like yeah but then and then I remember once

on Instagram because at the time obviously I was breastfeeding a lot and showing the sort of and a lot of it wasn't I never really made a plan of like I'm going to be hailed as this breastfeeding sort of champion yeah and but I I kind of was put on this pedestal, especially after doing it on the Jeremy Vine, but I didn't do any of that through plan. It was just my reality. And because I didn't have a lot of time on my phone and obviously my work and life is online

and what I share online, it was kind of the best time for me to have both my hands free to be able to be on my phone. So I'd be breastfeeding and then I'd have a little chat and a catch up and talk about where everything was going. And I remember when a lot of messages I'd get were like, you're shoving it in people's faces. We get it. You breastfeed. You're making people feel bad. And that was always my, I never want to make people feel bad anyway, ever, but especially with something like feeding and especially because my sister was formula fed.

I was like, I'm not even against formula. So I remember saying one day, look, I've got formula in my cupboard because I was trying to be like, I'm not on a team. I'm not breast is best. I'm not team boob. I'm just doing my best in my circumstances. But then I faced the wrath and backlash of lots of the breastfeeding community saying, you know, I'm promoting formula. And I really wasn't at all. Why do you think, because say like you were always very kind

and like, look, when you need to stop, you'll know and just stop. Like, you know, formula is not bad or whatever it was. But why do you think for some whether it's lactation consultants or you know people on the team boob side why do you think they have this like huge issue with formula when for a lot of women it is like their only option in the end so i would have thought that they don't particularly have an issue with formula per se. I'd be surprised if it was specifically that. I don't know how sort of gendered up you are. It's all like a whole other podcast on some of the practices of formula companies

and some of the sort of pretty unsafe and scrupulous practices around formula, particularly in the third world where they need access to clean water, where they'll potentially like to give it away for free, and then women's breast milk supply dries up, and then they haven't got access to formula, or they don't have the money to buy the formula. And then, and this is, like, endemic within, I'm not going to name the companies,

but there's, you know, if you want to look into that. So I think there's a lot of feeling, there's a lot of feeling around that. And then I think probably when there are people of influence, however you want to call it, I know, you know, you are just you doing what you're doing. There's a sense of therefore that that's promoting that, especially if you show the label or the brand or whatever. So I think that might have been part of it. But then I think the other part of it is that there isn't a lot, you know, relatively in the UK, there aren't a lot of people sort of openly as you did and as you have breastfeeding,

whether that be on national television, which like you said, was just like, I have a baby who's feeding. This is how I feed him. Or whether it's on Instagram because it's convenient for you because you know you've got your hands free finally sitting down they're promoting and not promoting it but just like living that life and normalizing it and then i think that there is that just absolute outpouring of i guess like happiness that there is that really positive messaging about it. Because ultimately, we still live in a culture where actually bottle feeding is the norm. And it's

not against bottle feeding. It's just that then when women, you talked about feeling isolated as a breastfeeding parent. And it's when then other people are showing that other women feel less isolated to know that they're breastfeeding toddlers or they're breastfeeding you know beyond six months or they're also exhausted and haven't managed to go on a date night yet and their baby's six months eight months nine months and so there's a lot of love and a lot of really strong feeling for that and I think that there's just there's just too many just like camps really within it and you know like you said you know like this sort of real like you can't have one without the other or you can't it should just be

about supporting the woman and baby right it should just be about supporting any single individual's choice people that don't fall out of love shouldn't fall out of love with you because you've stopped breastfeeding or because you've got formula in your cupboard like it just just shouldn't fall out of love with you because you've stopped breastfeeding or because you've got formula in your cupboard. It just shouldn't be like that. And I suppose I should have started the question by saying I don't know how to speak to that. But I do think that these are some of the influences that make it seem like within the breastfeeding world, they're anti-formula or whatever. But I don't believe they're anti-women's choice. It just goes back to the choice being often taken away.

And, you know, so much influence that lay people, I suppose, are not aware of from the formula industry. I think that's where a lot of sort of pushback comes from. I suppose seeing someone with lots of followers and, yes, I did. I wasn't promoting the brand. i've never been to the band but it was like look i don't have it in there i'm not against it and then i guess people just saw the brand but that's really interesting about that some of them were like unscrupulous practices yeah then kind of touching on what you were saying about the sort of like the judgment and feelings of isolation for anyone who is feeling isolated because they are still breastfeeding what advice

do you have for them because I know you helped me with this because I feel like there are lots of myths around and I got to a point I think Alf must have been in about nine months wasn't he and I was just I knew I was really depressed not not to do with breastfeeding. And I really was like, I feel like I've made a terrible mistake. I just don't enjoy motherhood and I'm so alone and I hate it and everything going on. And I guess as well, it was that total dependency of having Alf on me, needing me all the time, like needing my boobs all the time and just feeling completely isolated. And any time I tried to talk about it, people would always be like,

oh, well, just stop then. You're making a rod for your own back. Yeah, making a rod for your own back. Or even like the sleeping, he was waking up every half an hour and a lot of people were saying, oh, well, give him a formula that makes him sleep. And when I message you saying I will do anything at this point like my mental health like I need I need to survive basically wasn't it I was like I can't yeah I I'm just I was in such a low place and I was like

it's even if I wanted to stop breastfeeding at that point I was like I don't even know how like how how can I do it and you said, actually, I would love to tell you that formula would make your child sleep, but it's not true at this point. Can you talk a bit about that? Because I do think a lot of women kind of get fed certain narratives and stories and perhaps as well how you can stop if you do feel for whatever reason, you're kind of at the end of your journey, even if it's with biting, it biting it's still not clear cut okay we'll just stop then there's three little three things i guess that came up the first thing's about isolation and i think that's why again you know

there are a lot of of us that are feeding beyond six months feeding beyond one year feeding wherever and i think part of um forgive me if i'm wrong, but part of your experience, Ashley, around how you were feeling at that time is that you didn't actually know that many other people who were parenting in the way that you were and parenting through breastfeeding, co-sleeping. And that does lead to you feeling very lonely, very isolated, especially in a culture where we don't co-sleep and we don't breastfeed beyond much beyond six weeks let alone six months and my my advice to anybody that's listening who was where you were ashley or where other people might be is that you absolutely aren't alone but you might need to go and find your village you might need to just go online, whether it be through Facebook groups or Instagram accounts, and find where the other people are who are doing it like you so that you can go back to feeling like the way that you have chosen or your baby has led you to parent them at this point. And I

call it parenting because I don't think once you get into the older ages that it's breastfeeding per se. I mean, it is, but it's a way of parenting a child too. And find them and seek solidarity with them and share how absolutely debilitating it is to be nursing hourly through the night, even when you're co-sleeping and to have not felt like you've had a minute to yourself and all of those things because we we have been there and felt it and done it and we have had moments where we've wanted to stop and we've had moments where we've had abundant joy within it and all of that's really normal so that's what I would say to speak to that sort

of loneliness and if other women are feeling that and of course if you think what you're feeling is any more than than feeling low you should go and speak to somebody that you love and trust and consider speaking to your GP as well if you know if you're feeling really really sad about things in terms of formula sleep, I remember that conversation. I remember that time. It was really, really difficult. I think I remember very clearly a friend of mine who had breastfed their first child around the same time as me.

She was quite well older than one, I think. And then I saw her and she had a second child. And I said, you know, how are things going? She said, oh, I'm having a nightmare. I stopped breastfeeding when he was eight months because his sleep was terrible. And everyone told me to give him some formula. So I started formula feeding him. My milk dried up and his sleep's still terrible. And now I'm just not breastfeeding him, which is what I really wanted to be doing. And I really thought of her when

you said, if this is what I need to do, I'm going to do this because the science and the evidence would not suggest in anything beyond the first few months that formula would give a baby any more sleep. And then after the first two or three months is on a par with breastfeeding. And then so certainly it isn't, you know, once you get to the age or stage that you're at any more likely to help a baby sleep. It really is just in those very tiny newborn days where I think probably because of gastric emptying time is double that of breast milk, they just are fuller for longer and therefore they may sleep a little bit longer between feeds.

Even that's not a guarantee. So I think that when it comes to sleep and, you know, you found your way through navigating some holistic sleep coaching. I mean, that's a whole different conversation, isn't it? Yeah, in terms of sleeping bunnies and just help because I was always sort of against the more like traditional training of crying it out. Again, no judgment to anyone who has because my sister has in the end and lots of people have but alf and i found we just needed almost someone to like help us slowly guide out of that yeah no sleeping environment and make me feel a bit more like myself yeah it's funny though isn't it because when you're going through those emotions and in that first year whether it's sleep whether it's how you feed your

child they really are these like huge talking points that if you go to a mom group or baby swim or you've got friends or siblings or your mother-in-law whoever it might be everybody talks about how you're feeding them and they always have a comment either if you formula fed it's like we should have done breast is best or if you're formula feed you know or if it's the other way around and you're breastfeeding and they're like oh you need to give them a bottle they'll sleep better give them a bottle of formula and no one's actually just supporting the people because actually the worst thing you can say to someone that either doesn't want to breastfeed or has reached an end of the journey through through no almost like no choice in the end they had to do

what they had to do that was right for them the last thing they want to be told is that breastfeeding is the better thing and equally when you're through the trenches of breastfeeding and sleep deprivation and you really don't want to be told that you should just give them a bottle like people just need to like support and empower each other but what I was going to say is what's interesting is once you're out of those trenches no one talks about it at all like not one mum that I've met in the last six months has asked how I'm feeding my child or how he sleeps it's really interesting isn't it because actually there's still lots of us who might still be breastfeeding at this age for many uses you should say that because I remember when I got to an age with Gabie, who must've been like maybe like one and a half.

He was a big boy like Alphys and like, you know, like sturdy, robust, tall. And I got to the point where I actually didn't want to breastfeed him in public, which is really interesting given my background, just because it's just not seen. And then you don't want to be the one that's really putting that out there. And I felt really sad that I felt like that, but I did feel like that.

And then once I was reading In Beyond 2, there were just very few people that I told that I was doing it. Not that they're necessarily people asked, or people would make assumptions that I wouldn't be. And then I would be in a moment where I was like should I or shouldn't I you know people I'll say for example somebody might say to me how long did you breastfeed him for you know he's like two and a half like chatting around next to me I'm like all right um you know just for as long as we both wanted you know I don't, like depending on the person.

So wherever you come from, there's still something, isn't there? It's so interesting. You're so right. Like when I hear that people have breastfed, you know, Lucy Mack, 18 or 19 months or something, I think it's amazing. You, three and a half years, honestly, you deserve a medal. I don't know how you did that, but you're right. I, half years honestly you deserve a medal I don't I don't know how you did that but you're right I not through judgment or anything but I think because I'm so far out of that journey I wouldn't presume that someone else was in it and you're right maybe I do need to be like more I don't think I'd even ask someone though like well how long did you breastfeed for because I actually I don't think it really matters at the end of the day yeah the other thing is like

you're not still breastfeeding are you did you get that and did you ever have to feed in public and did you feel yeah I mean if he was unwell or something I might have but in you know it changes the feeding dynamic changes for an older child baby child, you know, he was way more interested in like doing other things when we were out and about. We fell into more of a routine of like feeding to sleep for his naps and feeding to sleep at bedtime and a morning cuddly feed. And then unless he'd got really upset

and banged his head or something, he wouldn't necessarily ask for it. And I would have, yes, I would have if he needed it. But it was really funny. I'm like, even with my Instagram account, I wasn't really talking about it that much in the time. And now that I'm out of it, he's four now, I'm so proud of it.

And I like would want to tell everybody that. And I have no goals to breastfeed him that long. And in fact, when I was doing my lactation consultant course, and I will say this, they showed an image of a man feeding what was probably a four-year-old and they asked us all how we felt about it at the time Gabby was like there with me he was about six months on that and I remember looking at it and just going oh god that's like a really big child I mean I wouldn't do that and then roll on three and a half years later you know that's like a really big child. I mean, I wouldn't do that. And then roll on three and a half years later. You know, that's a lot for me to sort of own up to

because what I'm meant to be like all for everything. And actually we don't see that. And yes, there are many countries where there are lots of children that are age feeding, but in the UK, we don't see it. We don't see it at all. So then we do feel isolated, maybe even shame, maybe even like some secret weird, like, what is it? Because it's just like, not a thing here. And I, and actually now I think that if I've got an opportunity, I've got a voice to also normalize that end of feeding in the same way I can normalize stopping breastfeeding whenever the fuck you want to, you know, sorry to swear, but like, I want to normalize that too I want to normalize like

it being about whatever you want I just want more women to be able to choose at the beginning and be supported with that choice but if you want to breastfeed till they're five if you want to stop for 18 18 months I want to empower you to do both of those things in whatever way they can and that's what I wish our society was about and it's not and it's funny because I saw a meme about like shame on women and it's true like no matter what you do you get shamed like you're saying you breastfed until three you felt shame or you got you were shamed if you don't have a baby you get shamed if you do have a baby and you give them formula you get shamed but like I don't think any dads are there being like,

do you, how's your child felt? Like there's no shame on them. And it's just so interesting, isn't it? Because you're right, we should. And I'll be honest, if I ever have another child, if I'm ever able to have another child, if I decide I want to have another child, I honestly could not say how I would feel about breastfeeding again.

Because I think because it was this like such hugely intense journey, amazing, like, like so many highs. I think that was one of the reasons I was so scared to stop as well, because when I hated every other part of motherhood, that was the bit I loved. And for me, it was like reclaiming my boobs that had been like so sexualized since I was 13 years old. And I think that was also why I was so proud to breastfeed publicly, like, because I was like, fuck you I think that was also why I was so proud to breastfeed publicly like because I was like fuck you like this is what this is what they're for and I'm doing it and if people have problems with it well I'm sorry you had problems with

my boobs as a 13 year old so like that that is on society that is not a me problem and I think that's why I like was so like I don't care if people have a problem with seeing me breastfeeding that's that's their problem not my problem but saying all of that I guess you just don't know how you feel but I honestly couldn't I can't imagine I can't even imagine going through the newborn phase again or it just feels like this sort of like hyper intense dream slash nightmare it's really interesting because I offer breastfeeding debriefs and I think that whatever way things happen but like if you've had like a very intense breastfeeding journey like you had and Alfred's very sensitive towards the end as well wasn't he relative to like having some boundaries to sort of help you with the biting?

And then obviously you had lots of challenges with various things at various stages. And then you start to think about if you may have another baby or perhaps you might find yourself pregnant. And then there would be women, for example, who really wanted to breastfeed. There was like a catalogue of things that went on and lots of told lots of maybe wrong things. And then that didn't pan out for them. It's quite a scary place to be when you think about making a feeding choice for a second child, or also thinking about how you feel about a breastfeeding journey that ended prematurely, that felt that wasn't in your control, that had traumatic elements to it, like extreme pain, whether that be like you were

inviting at the end or whatever. And I think that we, you know, it's really important that we value ourselves enough to allow ourselves to debrief those experiences, particularly in the, not always or exclusively, but especially in the context of perhaps thinking about where you want to start again, not to make you then choose to breastfeed again, but actually to empower you to make a choice that is still informed, but that takes into account that you've processed everything that's gone before to allow that choice to be truly informed rather than coming from a place of fear or a place of worry or a place of something else. And, you know, again,

I would just say, I'm not the only person that does this. And I think arguably you might be able to get some of it on the NHS. I'm not sure, but this is a thing, you know, that you can do if you're sitting here listening to that and thinking perhaps like you look I don't actually know what I would do and actually perhaps I'm holding a lot of stuff from what's gone before when it comes to feeding my child or baby I think as well it's that intensity of it like would I be able to do it that intensely again if I also had Alf do you know what I mean like how did you find it breastfeeding with a second so I find it found it okay but I think I have to acknowledge some of it was the temperament of my second baby so my first one didn't sleep at all really and he just was like I mean honestly he fed then he would like sleep for three hours then he would wake up

feed and go back to sleep again he was doing really long stretches at night which again busts the myth that breastfed babies can't sleep although to be fair there's a you know they're called unicorn babies clearly you know most babies don't sleep not just breast men not just formula breads and I was sleeping through it five months it did change he didn't keep it up as is the way but yeah five weeks sorry so I think I found it I found it all right and I think also because I've had an experience where it was so awful and painful and everything hard the beginning the first time around I was really I was like I was like healing wounds I think is how I would describe it both from my birth and from my first breastfeeding experience and I think I went into

it thinking it was going to be different in a much worse way than it was. I think that's part of empowering people to make a decision second time around in the context of maybe the first time being particularly challenging is to recognize that it's going to be different or it's most likely to be different, not necessarily better, but just different that each baby and boob dynamic most likely to be different. Not necessarily better, but just different that each baby and boob dynamic are going to be completely different. But there's a different level of intensity when it comes to meeting the needs of two children. But I suspect that's going to be there regardless of the feeding choice. I wonder as well if you've kind of adapted a bit more to like motherhood, even if it had been a few months ago and I got the dreaded call from nursery

with Alfie, it would have thrown my entire day. I probably would have ended up cancelling the podcast because I was like, oh, now I'm going to have to look after Alf and I can't do my work, but I need to do my work. Whereas now I'm like, okay, it is what it is. Tommy, you're going to have to look after Alf and do the podcast, then I'll take over. And it's a bit more like you just have to cope because that's what you have to do. Yeah. I think there's also something about having lived every stage already.

And that's not just with breastfeeding, it's with parenting in general. So all the times that you go through with your first child, it's the first time you've ever been through it. So when it's something really, really hard, you in that moment with child one, can't even imagine how you're going to get out the other side of it you do and then you learn that and that goes in the bank so when you've got child number two and it's really really hard and you're like anxiety levels are through the

roof and you haven't had more than god knows how much sleep and god knows how many days you're googling like can you die from sleep deprivation or whatever you actually know you do know that that won't you won't die and it sounds awful but you do you do know that because you've done it and it doesn't take away how hard it was but when you've got a second one there is a different level of like i can do this i think i think for me for anyone listening who maybe is feeling like what the fuck have i done like mother of this like if you're in that phase which i know not everyone feels but a lot of people do feel just like the what the fuck stage i know that it does get better you do get out of it and it's interesting actually because i i've been asking the last few guests about what it's like to have two kids just because

obviously it's kind of on my mind if i even can. And I know that we've been chatting literally for an hour. So I'm not going to go into it with you. But I did want to read this message from Grace. She said, Hi, Ashley, I've just listened to your latest episode. And I wanted to respond to your final question to your guests regarding having a second child. I had my first baby in January 2021. So I followed your journey since you were also pregnant. I feel like we can relate on so many levels. I had a pretty traumatic birth, but once I was discharged and sent home during lockdown, I felt like I started to really enjoy motherhood. However, similar to you, as the year went by, I felt my son started to get more independent and didn't

need me so much. I started to become quite negative and down, feeling like I'd lost all sense of purpose and drive for anything. I always knew there were more dimensions to me than just being a mom. I'd had a decent career before my first for anything. I always knew there were more dimensions to me than just being a mom. I'd had a decent career before my first child, but had to resign from my job during maternity leave as they wouldn't offer me anything below a 40-hour week. I then got offered a job that was part-time and met the hours I needed, but having achieved two degrees and six years into a management position to then go into this role on an absolute insulting salary, I lost myself and felt like I was being punished by society for going and having a baby my son is now nearly 18 months old a complete joy and finally

sleeping I've only just finished our breastfeeding journey which has meant so much to me considering I feel like my body was a failure when I gave birth I've recently found out I was pregnant with my second I'm married and in a stable loving relationship, but I'm not going to lie, I still feel a complete sense of overwhelm and no joy initially when I found out. Completely different feeling to the first pregnancy. I guess I almost know now how being on maternity leave and not being at work, having any time just for me affected me the first time. Having said that, I'm now into week 11 of my pregnancy. I finally started to get my head around it. I'm pretty sure that the first six months once the baby is born if it all goes well and baby is healthy will be hard having a two-year-old and a newborn to look after in January the second is due

pretty much exactly two years since my first was born midwinter I know now that everything lasts for a season and we can get through anything if we can get through lockdown with a newborn I keep telling myself this time will be different. I will have a significantly lower expectations of the newborn bubble while also hopefully having a bit more of normal time with friends and family to support me. I live four hours from my own family, but I have a wonderful support network for my in-laws and friends. Although I might sound a little bit negative about the second pregnancy, I'm fully aware of how blessed I am to be able to be pregnant again but as I'm one of the first of my friends to have kids I'll certainly

will be supporting them so much and give them the reality as well as the wonderful blessings a child can bring grace that was a really long message but like lovely message and I feel kind of like sums up what we were saying but any thoughts on that as a mum of two can you give race any sort of wise words or hope yeah i think she's right about it the seasons i think that's the main thing i think i would say and i think there'll be hard times and there will be times of great joy stacy thank you so much i know that we've covered so much ground and it still feels like not enough time but for anyone who is going through their feeding journey and wants to follow Stacey her Instagram is feed eat speak and she gives so much amazing free advice and obviously you do work as

a lactation feeding consultant speech therapist as well so thank you and thank you for all of your support saving me on my own journey as well thank you very much for having me it's been a pleasure and thanks to all to you guys for listening to mum's the word the parenting podcast I really hope today's episode was helpful for lots of you on your feeding journey for those of you who've who like me are not on your feeding journey I hope it's like a nice reminder down memory lane of all those kind of intense feelings and I hope we're all proud and guilt-free to be on the other side, however it worked out for you. I'd love to know what you thought of today's episode.

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another episode same time same place next week