Mum's The Word! The Parenting Podcast - The Importance of All Birth Stories with Illy Morrison (Mixing Up Motherhood)

Episode Date: December 5, 2022

TW // This episode touches on Birth Trauma.Mixing Up Motherhood, aka Illy Morrison joins us this week to chat about her birth experience, changes in relationships and the importance of all birth stories as well as doing what is right for YOU.Follow Illy on Instagram @mixing.up.motherhoodGet in touch with your birth stories, questions and topic suggestions at [e-mail] or on our whatsapp - 07599927537---A Create Podcast Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

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Well, hello. I can't believe it's Monday again. Back around. And I'm actually a few minutes late recording this podcast because I just had the dreaded text message from Alf's childminder saying he's got a high temperature and to pick him up so um I've just had a frantic call with Tommy and he was like I've got to work and I was like so do I so um I won I won the chief uh negotiation skills there um and Tommy is currently with Alf but I'm very very excited about today's guest because she was actually an instrumental part of my process in deciding to have a second child so I do want to give a slight trigger warning a minor trigger warning that we will be discussing birth trauma but I don't think in great detail but if that is not for you then please skip to other

episodes but I want to introduce you to someone today who I spoke to she is a birth debrief facilitator so she helps people deal with births and birth trauma and she is also a mum of two herself and midwife her Her incredible Instagram account, which actually you guys introduced me to her. That's how I ended up having a birth debrief with her. She's called Mixing Up Motherhood. It's Illy. Hello. Hello. It's so good to be here. Thank you for having me. Thank you so much for coming on the pod. Was I pregnant when we did our birth debrief? Just. I think you were very early in your pregnancy and well, not even that early,

but early where it wasn't public knowledge. Basically, I've talked a little bit in a previous episode about my decision to become a mum of two, whether I wanted to stay as a mum of one or whether I wanted to have another one and a big big part of that was how will I do childbirth again how can I put myself through childbirth again and so when Tommy and I decided that we did want to be parents again and I was like okay well it's now and ever like I want it I want you know I want them to be close in age and if I'm gonna do it I almost it was like I didn't want to get so much of my life back.

And like, so Tommy, there's four years between Tommy and all of his siblings and they're super close. So it wasn't necessarily, I know that it doesn't really matter what the age gap is. But for me personally, I was like, I can't get out of this and then go through it all again. So it needs to be now. I remember saying to Tommy, like, my app says I'm highly fertile. So are we going now, now or not? And so then, um, I was kind of in the, in the process of trying to deal with my birth,

um, experience. And I suppose very fortunately it happened. It happened now, now. It happened on the first attempt. I was very lucky to get pregnant again. So then I was suddenly like, oh shit. And so I went to Illy to help go through my birth notes from my previous birth so um yeah why don't you talk about what it is you do and and and why it is that you do yeah so basically when I had my own daughter I was still working clinically as a midwife so that's about four years ago and ended up having I went for a planned home birth and ended up with an emergency cesarean section. All of the processes and everything that happened led to me feeling quite traumatized by the whole experience. And then the sort of fourth trimester was just additional trauma.

And I found it really difficult. And then the shock of the difficulty just kind of made it worse. But do you think it was more of a shock because you were a midwife so you almost felt like I know what I'm doing this is gonna all be under control? Exactly it's like I should know what I'm doing and you know I'd kind of been a bit like not cocky but I was confident and I was like you know I'm just gonna do this and it's gonna be fine and I'm gonna have this home birth and I was working in London but I was like you know I'm just going to do this and it's going to be fine and I'm going to have this home birth and I was working in London but I was living in Norfolk and so I was under a different team and that that should have been a bit of a red flag for me but it wasn't and I was like oh gosh yeah you know I've got this I'm going to do it what ended up being a quite a

deeply traumatic transitional experience um led to essentially this work. Because when I went back to work after Ihsan was about 14 months, I remember looking after someone and her having an experience that felt very similar to my own and basically freezing and not really knowing, kind of like being like, oh, my gosh, I'm having like I'm highly triggered here like I don't know if I'm okay led to me kind of working on my own stuff and quitting my job and sort of taking four months of kind of a lot of reflection and where do I want to be what I want to do. Beginning of the pandemic my husband was locked down in Spain and I was like well I'm just

going to start sharing my thoughts and experiences and so that was about two and a half years ago and that was the beginning of Mixing Up Motherhood. So after that people would tell me their birth stories quite frequently and I'm like okay well you know I'd give them like tips on how to work through it etc and then I thought why don't I offer it as a service um and it started as like one or two bookings and within about six weeks I had an eight week waiting list um so it kind of like tapped into a bit of an area that clearly needed a lot of support yeah and just over two years later here we are that's what I do full-time what is the benefit of having a birth debrief from your professional opinion? So basically, the NMC will say that birth reflections are not necessarily the best way

of processing trauma. And this is predominantly because of one, the practitioner not necessarily being equipped to support that. So often a birth debrief in the hospital with a consultant midwife or with a senior midwife. Sometimes they are with the obstetricians as well. But perhaps they aren't necessarily able to hold that space in a way that benefits the person and can end up being re-traumatizing. in a way that benefits the person and can end up being re-traumatizing um but also because of defensive practice so if you're going to the practitioner of a trust and then you're telling them well you lot did this this this this and this they could be like hold on you know and there's the defensiveness and then the gaslighting and whatever and it's not often a conscious thing because i know people hundreds of people who've had hospital debriefs and have really benefited from them. But those are some of the risks of a hospital debrief.

So I would say part of being a private practitioner is that I'm impartial. I don't have a fear of litigation. I'm not defensive either. I also have a lived experience, but also I'm very much trauma informed through other training that I have done to become trauma informed in order to kind of not re-trigger or re-traumatize. But most importantly, I think with this kind of work, it's important to understand the remits of your work and say, actually, do you know what? This is beyond my remit. This needs different support and be able to signpost to that. my remit this needs different support and be able to signpost to that but otherwise I think it could be really beneficial for people to have a space to speak to someone about what happened to them across the perinatal period so anything from preconception to well into the postnatal period and be able to kind of get that understanding of a clinical issue but also understanding of the emotional impact that may

have had um to give them ease in subsequent decision making and to give them the sort of to give them their power back and I think when you are traumatized it often stays in your head a lot and you're going around in a bit of a loop and there's a lot of self-blame a lot of guilt and a lot of shame and so being able to kind of offload to someone who knows what that is, but also understands it from both those angles can be really beneficial. Yeah, I have to say from my personal experience, I didn't know about really birth debriefs, anything like that. birth debriefs, anything like that. And I also didn't consider myself as someone who had birth trauma until probably about 18 months down the line in my postnatal journey. And I think it's because when I thought of sort of birth trauma or negative birth experiences, I thought of like, you know, a really horrible outcome. And I felt, well, I did have a healthy child and we got to leave the hospital

pretty much straight away like alarmingly so four hours after birth and I remember even when the midwives released me from their care at two weeks postpartum and they were like oh are you happy for us to sign to sign you off and I remember like, are you happy to sign me off? And I remember being like, well, what about my stitches? Like, will they be healed? And they said, oh, well, obviously you'll have your six-week check. And then the six-week check came when I think that was like the sort of beginning for me of being like, hang on, this doesn't seem right.

Because number one, it wasn't a physical check. And number two, I'd kind of presumed, probably like you said, that I would have this really positive birth. I was fit and healthy. I've run marathons. And that I'd get back into sort of normal life, emotionally, physically, psychologically after six weeks. And it almost took a lot longer i was diagnosed with prolapse then i found out i was stitched up incorrectly and then the kind of the sort of like invisible consequences of that like having pain if i tried to have sex or even like you know any form of like using a tampon was a no-go like any form of touch down there would

kind of send me i didn't know whether it was the pain or whether it was like the memory of childbirth but I would just end up crying and sometimes Tommy would be like are you crying and I'd be like no and he was like what like you can just tell me that you're crying but in my head I was like but I just want to go back to normal and I want to go back to like enjoying intimacy. And I don't want to feel like this broken freak who can't be intimate. And I know you speak brilliantly about relationships and the dynamics and how things can change after pregnancy or after birth. But I was like, we used to have this amazing, passionate relationship and I want that.

And Tommy was like, yeah, but not like you don't have to do it if you're crying like it's not the only thing and um and yeah so for me it took a long time to realize like psychologically like I did have trauma and so even though yes I'm grateful and I'm lucky that I had a positive outcome, I was also left physically damaged. And it took me a while to realize that it actually wasn't okay. And a lot of my birth could have been avoided. And for those of you who don't know, I think I have talked about this process on another episode, I have talked about this process on another episode, but you can all request your birth notes from your hospital. Do you know, I went through PALS. Is that the standard way to go? Yeah. So you can go through PALS and often when you just type it into Google, like request medical notes and then followed by the name of your trust, it will take you to either the direct

place to get them or through PAL. So often if you file a complaint, you can request them with your complaint as well. So they have to give them to you. They are your legal property and they are kept for about 25 years. So you can request them should you want them. So my reason for seeking advice and support from illy was because i requested my birth notes and number one i got about 200 pages that weren't even like put in the correct order i'm still pretty sure that they didn't give me the actual like physical notes of the birth because it

had all the different times so it So they basically gave me pages from the very first time they saw me in the midwife saw me. So what, like 12 weeks of pregnancy or sooner than that. And then it went all the way through onto the day of me going into labor. So it had all the notes of like 7pm, 8pm, 9pm. And then I swear there was a page missing, but it could have just been in the chaos of like the double-sided 200 pages that I received. I couldn't find it. So then I arranged a birth debrief, which is completely free to do with the hospital. And I think I was hoping for closure. So one of the big parts of mine was that I was denied pain relief, but I was also forced to have a physical check, which was incredibly painful

because I was told, if you want an epidural, then we have to do this. So I did it. And then the epidural never came. And I think I went into the NHS, the free birth debrief, almost expecting pragmatic answers of like, oh yeah, you didn that because we it was locked down and we were short of staff and there was no anaesthetist like we're really sorry so I was almost like prepared for that but what I wasn't prepared for was actually the birth note said she was fine she was coping fine and that really threw me because I thought and I even said to Tommy like were you under any like disillusion that I was fine? And he was like, no, you were begging, like repeatedly begging for help.

And I was like, how can I be so vocal about not being fine? And especially because I went in knowing, you know, I did the hypnobirthing and I did the, I didn't do NCT, but one of those kind of birth preparing courses. And I knew what all the different options were and I felt very empowered and confident going in that I could ask for what I needed or wanted and it never occurred to me that they would just say I was fine and so I actually felt almost more traumatized after the call than before I had it because I was like that doesn't give me answers like I don't have closure because why wasn't I taken seriously when I was really vocal and how is that allowed and how am I meant to go into another birthing experience when I feel like the trust is completely

being eroded I think you've raised a really good point there when it comes to requesting your birth notes. So people say to me, Ili, should I request my birth notes for my debrief with you? And I'm like, I don't need them because actually what I really want to get to the crux of is your experience. And I think because they are clinical notes, they often don't speak about how you feel and what you're saying as much as it's very important. So sometimes people get their notes back and they're like, this isn't, this doesn't sound like my experience. Like this just sounds like someone who was observing something and had to jot something down. And so it can really take away the validation that you need. And it's like, what, that's not what happened um and so you know when it comes to telling your

birth story the most important person to tell it is you because you actually lived it you know you're then second guessing yourself like did it was i not vocal enough you're asking to me did i not say enough and actually it's like that's the power of someone else documenting your story that they can take that away from you and so so, you know, you were fortunate enough to have someone who said, no, you were, and to really give that back. But for a lot of people, they don't have that. They don't have anyone to say, no, it's true. Like, you know, that wasn't the case and things like that. And they start to just believe what was said. So essentially just gaslighting themselves themselves because they don't really have any answers and so similarly to you can come away feeling just more traumatized by reading that document because it's not reflective of what they lived so how can you help people and how can you empower them through your sessions so basically what we do is we go through that experience what that birth experience was and how they would describe it. And then we find sort of the area, the sort of problem areas or where they felt that the issue lay and give it back to them. You hand that control back. So it's like, what happened to

you? Tell me about what happened to you. And then tools in order to kind of go forth and process it, but also to manage the impacts of it. So whether it is a physical impact or an emotional impact. So for example, someone who perhaps is struggling with intimacy following birth trauma, a physical trauma or an emotional one. And it's about kind of going back and being like, right, these are the kind of tools that you can use to speak to your partner. You can also use these tips to kind of bring you back into that intimate space as your mind has taken you back to what was a traumatic space um and so we go through that but then if we're talking about subsequent birth planning we really work on that agency and that belief

and it isn't romanticized it's not idealized um because it's it's basically in response to who you are as a person so you now know how you respond to birth and pain and difficulty and so it's working with actually who you are and how you respond and how to basically use the right language and also develop that belief in your ability to advocate for yourself why do you think there is a sort of disconnect between women's child birthing experiences because obviously of course you have like lots of positive births and i love hearing positive births but i also feel like often, you know, I was saying earlier to somebody that someone I know has recently heard a really positive burst. I was like, that's amazing. I'd love to get you on the podcast to talk about it, which hopefully, by the way, we will once she's recovered and got some time.

And she replied, obviously really well-meaning, being like, oh, yeah, because all we hear about is negative stories. And I was like, well, I don't want to say they're negative, but also I always feel if I try to talk about my own experience that people are like, oh, don't scare pregnant, you know, don't scare people. And it's almost like we are silenced in a way, but it's like, or another thing that I find really hard to hear, especially as someone who did and loved hypnobirthing is,

oh, well, I had a good experience did and loved hypnobirthing is oh well i had a good experience because i did hypnobirthing and i'm like well i had a good like i loved hypnobirthing but i didn't have the good experience so did i fail at hypnobirthing um so why why is it that we're not heard and why is it that we're sort of brushed off as like negative and why aren't why aren't we better supported by healthcare? Yeah. I mean, I think firstly, you know, it's about, there is a real lack of accountability a lot of the time because obstetrics and gynecology is probably the area of most litigation in healthcare.

So if we have people suing left, right, and center, that means that we have to say we did this wrong. We've done this wrong. We've done this wrong, we've done this wrong. Obviously, that would sink the whole system. So firstly, the lack of accountability is going to be a contributing factor. So the risk, the accountability means risk of liability. So, you know, we're going to have that. The defensive practice as well well the normalization of certain behaviors amongst healthcare staff and actually I didn't you know until I really started getting into this work there's a lot of things that I didn't realize could have caused the trauma like it was it's it's that we you know when you're on the other side of it you don't even you're just in it you're just doing what you're doing and it takes a minute you have to really step back and reflect on your own practice and be like oh actually what kind of things do cause trauma from your experience yeah so even like if i say i'm really busy on a shift and we know the state of the nhs we know that everyone is very busy so i'm really busy and so i just pop in once and i say

joe i'll be with you in five minutes and i I don't come back for five hours. Now that person, that's an exaggeration, but like that person could be sitting in that room in agony, waiting for support, needing just reassurance. And I said, I'd be back, but I didn't come back. So if I'm going to give my word, I need to give my word because actually I don't know, I need to follow through, sorry, because actually, I don't know what the impact of that sense of isolation may be having on that person as they're going through this very vulnerable situation and feeling like they have been left by themselves. So I might have all the reasons under the sun as to why I didn't come back. But if I haven't communicated that for that person, they're feeling like, do I not matter? Like I'm sitting here, I need help. No one coming there's no support I'm isolated I'm by myself I'm scared and all of that sort of thing so it's like actually as practitioners and that's just that's just an example but there's so much more you know in emergency situations where we say we have to ring the buzzer but we don't even give like a

warning of I'm going to ring a buzzer, lots of people are going to flood the room. If we just ring the buzzer, loads of people come running in, that can cause a real fear in someone. So things like that, it's about how we communicate, how we manage situations and looking at them from a trauma informed lens, which will make a big difference to how even, you know, how accepting people are of changes of circumstances, how they feel around things not necessarily going their way or the way that they expected. So that's sort of one side of it. And then the other side is we do hear negative stories, but I think it's also our perception of negativity

because it's that we're saying, oh God, it's negative. It's negative. And we perhaps miss that there's lots of learning to be taken from someone else's experience. So we shut down someone who's telling us a story that might be deemed traumatic. And actually, perhaps if they'd listened to it from a perspective of like both people wanting to engage in that conversation, there's learning to be done. And they could actually be like, oh, you know what, that has empowered me to be like, oh, no, I don't want that to happen to me. Or I would like to do that differently. But instead, traumatic birth stories get such a bad rap that they are often shut down. And also, the antenatal education space often encourages positivity and, you know, surround yourself with only positive stories um and so

I think that also encourages people to be like don't tell me your negative story um and actually one thing I will say which I think is really important is we often put and part of why there is so much trauma as well is that we have this understanding and it's all based on our own experiences and perhaps what we have been taught or shown what of what trauma is and what negativity looks like and so we project that a lot of the time so we're like oh you know you might tell me your story that you didn't find traumatic but I'm like oh my god that's so traumatic I don't even want to hear it and equally equally, you might tell me, or I might tell you a story that I did deem traumatic. And someone's like, that's not traumatic.

Like, what are you talking about? So-and-so had this, this, this, this, and this. And so equally, we're just kind of being shut down a lot. Whereas actually we need to hear from people who say, that for me may appear to be a traumatic experience, but I found it okay. Or that may appear to be normal and someone else may have found it okay. Or that may appear to be normal and someone else may have had it worse. But for me, that was traumatic. So we give people the

validation that they need rather than kind of determining what their story is. And if we, if we think that it was traumatic or if it wasn't. Wow. That's so true, isn't it? I guess we live in this culture of toxic positivity as well that, you know, it's like if I were to tell someone my birth story and they're like, oh, but at least you've got, you know, your child's healthy or at least he survived or at least you survived. And so then it's almost like diminishing my experience where it makes me feel silly for sharing my experience. But then at the same time, it's this weird balance, isn't it? Because for example, if I find out one of my friends is pregnant, I'm not going to tell them my negative.

I hate saying the word negative because it's not negative. It's my experience. I don't want to tell them my experience with birth because what benefit would it give? Unless they said to me, do you know what? I want to hear all kinds of stories. Would you tell me yours? I would never project my bad experience and i think that's like the difficult line with motherhood because you know it's like even now i'm getting loads of dms

being like good luck with your second and you know you're it's it's 10 times as hard and you'll be 5 000 times more tired and it's that sort of like projection that's unhelpful and that's why in my pregnancy with alf i actually didn't want to hear any bad birth stories because i've had what empowers me i remember tommy's mom who i love was always like you should watch one every minute and i was like i don't want to watch that why would i want to see like traumatic experiences when i need to believe I can do this and the only way for me that I can believe I can do this is to listen to positive experiences so I go in with a positive mindset whereas some of my friends who've since had babies are like can you tell me your

story and I'm like are you sure you want me to tell you mine because there's lots of positive ones out there and they're like, we want to hear that all. For them, it's empowering to hear all kinds of stories so that they can, like you said, have that knowledge and kind of use it for themselves. So I guess it's like respecting people's boundaries. But also what upsets me, I think, is that sort of shutdown of like, don't scare.

It's like, shh, sh don't scare like you there's pregnant people around like don't don't tell them your story because it will put them off and i'm like but are we not allowed to talk are none of us allowed to talk anymore and one thing that makes me cringe is before i was a mom i was like moms are so negative moms are so negative and instead of like hearing wow like people are struggling like there's a lot of pressure on moms obviously both parents but especially on moms rather than me being like what can i do to help my friends i saw it as like got it they're so negative like why have children if why have children if it's that bad and it took me a long time to like grow that empathy of like

actually oh wow like actually I could have probably done more to alleviate some of those pressures on my friends that were experiencing it we kind of it's really difficult to even understand and I think it's so interesting when people kind of give a warning about second babies because like you know my son's eight months and like it's it's tough like yeah of course you've got another human to look after it's another responsibility but there is like so much good in it as well like it's just like okay yeah I'm tired but I was tired before so you know I'm just tired and you know but you kind of you know and you'll see this hopefully you know with Alf and now you'll see

this like your two kids and it's just the most incredible thing to see and it's like actually there's so much to look forward to and it isn't all negative and you know even when it comes to like subsequent birth because that's another thing you know oh if it was if your birth was that bad why are you doing it again it's like well no don't i'd prefer not to i always go to tommy like i'm so gutted you can't take one of the team this time like we're so equal in like so much with parenting and i'm like wouldn't it be so nice if you could just do this like this pregnancy in this birth and i would love not to be doing birth again but actually having the conversation with you and Emiliana, who I did an episode with a few weeks ago,

I do feel excited for this birth, mainly I think because I've taken the decision from myself to have a planned cesarean. So it's a completely new, fresh experience. Sometimes I'm like, oh great, now I'm going to be like damaged in both places. But equally, I'm like, I know that if anything were to go slightly left, if I were to try and have a vaginal birth, my mindset would just go because it would take me back to my original experience. But also the recovery. So medically, I've been advised to have a c-section because they stitched me up incorrectly

if i were to have a vaginal birth there is a risk that i would end up with worse fecal incontinence and after shitting myself for a long time after childbirth that is not something that i want to risk being a permanent feature in my life um and yeah I just think this for me personally I can hopefully just have a fresh experience with a fresh mindset and it's amazing because actually I was the opposite to you so I had an emergency c-section the first time and then had a an h-back so a home birth after cesarean section oh wow with my second and I was full like gung-ho either I'm gonna have an elective cesarean section oh wow with my second and I was full like gung-ho either I'm gonna have an elective cesarean or I'm having a home birth there is nowhere in between you know that was the decision that was right for me at the time so I was like right you're going for home birth let's

do this and you know when my son was born at home it it was like, it was euphoric. Like it was incredible, but like, I'm sorry. I don't know what people say, but like the recovery from the C-section was so much easier than the recovery from the vaginal birth. Like blimey, that was a lot. Like it was, it was a really extensive recovery and I didn't have extensive tearing or anything like that, but it was the full body exertion of it all and I think the kind of idea that you've had a vaginal birth and you'll be fine um also didn't really help but it was it was really taxing and you know I think when we talk about these things we say generic things like vaginal birth's easier it's much quicker recovery but you're an example of actually vaginal birth wasn't

necessarily easier and also the recovery wasn't necessarily quicker for me I was taking no pain relief one day after my emergency cesarean section where it's like following vaginal birth I was like oh my god give me some paracetamol give me some ibuprofen like I need something so it really does vary and so when we are talking to people about subsequent birth choices following trauma it's important that we kind of give them like their own space to express what their needs are and that's what we do in debriefs like what is important to you and then how do we get that how did you get into the mindset of trying again to go down the sort of vaginal route after it didn't work the first time so basically not didn't work but you know circumstances yeah I mean basically there were lots of contributing

factors to why my vaginal birth didn't work um or wasn't successful and that was predominantly I had a really I had really bad midwives that looked after me obviously big love to most midwives but they weren't good they weren't you know they didn't really benefit me in that way and not because they were horrible people but I think we just really didn't gel um so that was the first thing and then secondly I think basically what had happened was she was back to back and then her head was asynclitic so it's slightly tilted and as she was trying to rotate she basically got herself into like a proper like pickle and couldn't get out so I stopped dilating at five centimeters and um that was kind of the end of that and by the time I got to the hospital they'd made a call for um an emergency cesarean section under general anesthetic and I remember being like we're not doing that um just wait a

second her heart rate will come back up her heart rate came back up I was like like we're not doing that um just wait a second her heart rate will come back up her heart rate came back up I was like now we can just do a cesarean section um under spinal so I was awake um but when it came to my son's birth I was like right what is going on with your pelvis why what what needs to happen with your pelvis for why your baby's gone in back to back and struggled to rotate so I was seeing a chiropractor throughout my pregnancy to kind of really work on my pelvis. I'd contacted the home birth team. I had a doula who was incredible, who'd come to the family friend, but she'd come from South Africa. And during my pregnancy, my mom passed away. So three months before I had my son and that really kind of

tilted my world but was also just like you are going to get this birth sister like you're gonna do it um so I definitely was like a bit stubborn in it and with the kind of basically fallback plan that if it wasn't working I needed to beforehand. And I was going to make the decision to go straight to hospital and straight to theatre. So I definitely had that contingency in place. But I had a belief in my ability to birth this baby. And either way, it was going to be my choice. So I was going to stay at home. It's my choice. I was going to go and have a caesarean section and it was my choice.

And that's actually what mattered. I'm sure as parents, we all know how messy things can get, whether that's around the house, during mealtimes, and even when it comes to our little ones themselves. When it comes to wiping Alf's messy face and body, I want to be sure that what I am using is the best choice for his skin. With baby eczema and nappy rash being common conditions, using wipes for sensitive skin is a must.

We've both been loving water wipes. We've actually used them since Alf was born and they gently clean and help protect delicate newborn and premature baby skin. They're made of just two ingredients, so 99.9% water and a drop of fruit extract. That means they are the best wife choice for sensitive skin. Alf loves them and I even find myself using them. So would you describe your second birth as a positive birth? I honestly could. There are no words for the birth of my son.

could there are no words for the birth of my son there are absolutely no words to describe what that feeling was and how I felt within myself um to kind of be like you did it like you actually did it um and it wasn't about how he came out but it was that when the midwives were there I was like I don't need any of you and I went up by myself and I was just moving all the time because when she first examined me, she said, oh, baby's back to back. And I was like, OK, we're doing this again. That's clearly how my babies go into my pelvis. Let's keep going. And I was like, I need to be by myself. My sister and my doula were with me, but I had no eyes on me, no professional eyes on me that made me feel like I had to perform. And I did not stop moving

throughout that whole labor. Like I was constantly like leg up, leg down on my knees, you know, up and down completely unconsciously. And when she examined me again, two hours later, she was like, your baby's rotated all the way around. And so giving myself that freedom and knowing like, I don't need to be watched. I need to trust what I'm doing. I need to be in a safe place with safe people. And I need to have the control over decision making. Meant that when he came out and it was, I think it was like four hours from start to finish. When he came out, I was like, you're freaking amazing.

Look what you did. And that feeling is one that is unimaginable and that you can get from is regardless of how you birth the child it's about how you were treated throughout and how you were respected and how you were autonomous and that will make you be like when you take your baby hopefully and you put this baby on your chest and you meet her for the first time you'll be like we did this we managed this situation to be the way that we wanted it to be and that will give you that exact same feeling so it's not about how the baby comes out but everything before that's amazing i love hearing i generally love hearing the nice stories i think it's important to hear the traumatic stories but it's's so nice. I hope there are more and more and more positive experiences. And I hope my second is a really positive experience because like what you said earlier, I hate this sort of

generalization of like, oh yeah, C-section is harder to recover from than a vaginal birth. Because I'm like, it took me 20 months to not experience pain and to be diagnosed actually with vaginismus because when I went to go see a gynecologist, he kind of said, oh yeah, well, it's all in your head. And I was like, because of the trauma and I was like, well, that's all very well, but how do I get it out of my head? Because I really don't want it in my head. I would like to enjoy sex again I don't really care about not using tampons again because I've discovered period pants which I wish I'd discovered beforehand but I was like I would like to have like not be scared of my vagina

so yeah I find it really hard and people are like yeah yeah vagina vials are so much quicker to recover from I'm like not my experience um yeah exactly so your chiropractor this is probably really personal and less interesting to people listening but was that to help with like pelvic girdle pain because that's something I experienced I wonder if I should I would recommend I recommend a chiropractor to everyone um I think the pelvis is is literally at the center and manages all of our equilibrium and also our babies so regardless of how we're going to birth them they are in that space they're putting a lot of pressure and those hormones and everything so even just slight tweaking is it's incredible so

when I first went to see her um I shared it on Instagram people were like stop is that what's happening look at that look happening? Look at that, look at that, look at that. And you can hear, and you could literally see how one leg was higher than the other. And then she did what she did and they straightened out and, you know, things like that. And it honestly, when that baby rotated, I was like, that's because my pelvis is okay. Like it was clearly a space that he was able to navigate and so to be honest with you even if someone turned around to me and said it's not about the chiropractor I was like I don't care though it was about whatever helped my mindset to believe but it also makes sense like I'm surprised

that we don't kind of care a bit more for pregnant people like of course they should see a chiropractor and obviously it shouldn't be a privilege that you can afford to see one like it because i i guess it would help you have a better birth and my one bit of unsolicited advice which i will never give to anyone about i'm whenever my friends have babies i'm like i'm never going to give you any unsolicited advice but i'm here if you need but go go see a baby osteo i swear they are magicians honestly i remember alf was like always crying and somebody told me go see a cranial osteo it's the best money i ever spent on him like it was like it's magic isn't it like because they say which makes sense that because they're all crooked up inside your body if they have like one little like crook in their spine that like digs into their lungs or into

their tummy and every friend I've told they're like oh my god that's amazing it's changed my life because I remember my daughter had hiccups she would get hiccups all the time and she also had like a very cone-shaped head from where she was stuck I went to the osteo the same day her head smoothed out it was no longer a cone but she also wasn't hiccuping they were like she was just stuck and she was all like kind of you know and to be honest again even if someone says it wasn't the osteo they just grew out of it it's like I don't actually care because it made me feel that I was taking control that I was doing something to benefit my child and I can see that there was a change I don't really it

doesn't matter about what you think especially something like an osteo is completely um non-invasive so it's like they don't you know if it doesn't feel like it works for you it's fine but they're not harmed by it I know you talk a lot about relationships and how they change and shift. And I feel like this is such an important conversation, quite a difficult conversation to have because lots of people don't want to put their, I don't want to say their dirty laundry,

but you know, like Tommy and I did a podcast episode after a year where we spoke kind of in depth about the changes and challenges, but it is quite a hard thing for people to discuss so i feel like lots of people do go through these changes yeah in silence and i think you know it's also because like with a lot of issues like the moment you've put them out there it's like they're real and it's like oh gosh now i've spoken about it and now i've got to do something about it like Like I can't ignore it anymore. And what relation, what having children does to your relationship, it's literally like,

are you having a laugh? And like, it can make you feel so much closer, but often before getting to the closeness, you have to go through like the trenches and it's exhaustion, it's miscommunication, and it's exhaustion it's miscommunication it's misunderstanding it's kind of jealousy there's a lot of jealousy of you know your whole life because of the responsibility that you have one from an emotional perspective but also a societal perspective it's shifted in a different way and often their life change will not reflect yours and so it's like there's there's this kind of real jealousy from one side and a lack of empathy from another side it's it's there's so much to be explored when that happens but if we throw trauma into the mix it's even bigger because men if we're talking about heterosexual relationships but also partners will deal

with their own trauma from having viewed something from their perspective you'll be having yours the responses will be different in both of you and often where they're not aligned you'll just be like I feel isolated in this their part your partners are I feel isolated in this it can cause arguments and all sorts and um you know now second time around like I said stupidly you know when you say things on social media and you're like oh shit there's loads of you um i said oh you know if the first baby's like a grenade to your relationship the second baby's like an atomic bomb and then i had loads of people who were like oh my gosh i'm freaking out now i'm about to have my second and i was like oh guys chill out like you know i don't mean it like that, but it is a lot.

But you do realize that the first baby will be the real baptism of fire. And hopefully then you come back together and you're like, OK, we're cool. And then the second baby does probably all up again. But the coming back together feels easier because you've done it before. So it's kind of like, OK, remember what happened last time. OK, we can work through this. Like like what did we not do last time and I shared a post yesterday about the kind of tips on the things that I wish me and my partner had spoken about in that first year and it was it was mad because people were like oh my gosh I need to ask my partner this this is what we need to talk about so definitely conversations to be had i saw that post by the

way it's brilliant nine things my partner and i should have spoken about in the first year of parenting i feel like from my perspective i'm such an open book on social media and in the podcast but i think like the reason i find it difficult to talk about the changes or the challenges is because i think that actually it's like if you gossip to friends all the changes or the challenges is because i think that actually it's like if you gossip to friends all the time like we all have those friends who all they do is like bad mouth their relationships so therefore you don't respect their relationship because you only hear those negative things so it's a bit like it's a bit like when people have a really public breakup and then they get back together and you're all like really like now we know like

now we know that he doesn't pick up his pants and he doesn't, you know, all of these things. So the kind of like respect from the outside is gone. Whereas of course all couples have to deal with like a dynamic shift to whatever degree. But I found for me personally, it's exactly what you're saying, the societal expectations,

because I've always considered myself such an equal, especially in this relationship, which is why it's such a healthy relationship. And I'm also a very alpha female. So when I was pregnant with Alfie, and people would say things to me like, enjoy getting your nails done while you can. I generally thought like well their partners

must live in the 1950s because why can't they just look after their children for you to go get your nails done if that's what you want to do so i was like we'll never be like that but what i failed to understand was it wasn't that they were saying their partners don't look after them they were kind of saying because they have such little time that in the time that previously they would have got their nails done they probably have to do ten,000 other things. But I very much went into it being like, we'll be equal, we'll be equal, we'll be 50-50. And so it was Tommy. And then obviously like, A, you have like the physical recovery and the fact that biologically, my boobs were the food, not Tommy's. So then I'd like resent the fact that he could go out with his friends and it was

it coincided with um was it the euros it was some football on so when he was saying can I go watch football with my mates it would be like I think it was summer and the sun was shining it was like beer gardens of course I couldn't be like no how dare no dare, no, you can't. Because I can't do any of, and I just remember feeling so lonely because he'd leave and I'd be like, I used to do fun things. But then he would get praised for doing like the most basic of parenting,

which isn't to say I think all parents should be praised, but it was the stark contrast of like me walking down the street with a pram with people like tutting, being like, get out the way. Sometimes like even like having to take the pram onto the road so that you're not in the way and then there'd be like a dad walking down with a pram and everyone's like cooing like oh my god so nice and I was like what is this but also it it's um yeah that the men I feel like the mental load is different and that's it isn it? It's that we do have,

we are going to carry it differently. That does not take away from the fact that they have their own mental load, but ours, it just feels so all consuming a lot of the time. And like, you know, a lot of us do need positive reinforcement. Like we want to be told actually,

do you know what? Co-sleeping or whatever, like well done, because actually that is such hard work. Like it would be nice if someone told us that rather than said, well, duh, of course you're co-sleep. You're supposed to respond to your child's needs, you know. Like, you know, whereas if someone sees a picture of a dad with his baby, they're like, oh, my gosh, and look at him. We don't get that. So, you know, where we it feels like it's like a load that then no one wants to kind of like affirm you in and be

like this is hard but you are doing the damn thing like they just like yeah well duh like that's what you should be doing you know and that can feel really tough it's like how do you talk about the dynamics of your relationship shifting without people thinking it's like a failed or doomed relationship but like like you kind of echoed at the beginning like i have so much more like love and respect for tommy because of how he parents and you know you are like forever connected over this child or children but then i also like simultaneously miss you know being able to go out or do all the kind of like the bits of your relationship that I'm sure will come back in the future but yeah it's like it's a weird it's a weird one but I think it's amazing

that you're talking about it and I'm sure it's going to help um so many people hopefully I mean I I released a new project these conversation starter cards and therefore postpartum relationships and they literally sold out within like a few hours because I think people really wanted prompt they want something physical to be like oh maybe this will encourage my partner to open up rather than trying to be like how do I bring it up to them and they I think this is just what we need it's just something that can help us to be like oh let, let's just talk about this thing. So yes, it's needed.

I wish in antenatal classes, they would teach you a more about the postpartum period, but also about relationships and communication. I remember my pelvic health physio telling me that something like the average it takes for couples to have sex after childbirth is something like 18 months. And I was like, what like what no because traditionally like you'd hear all these like kind of passive aggressive comments of like oh yeah she had children and she didn't make time for her husband anymore so of

course he had to go out and find it elsewhere or whatever it was and i remember like even just having the confidence to communicate of like hey really sorry it's not that i don't fancy you but i'm quite scared of my vagina right now and i remember tommy being like so am i i saw i thought like do you think do you think i'm like he was like i'm scared of hurting you as well and that's like it was like a real moment where i was like oh yeah he's not just like this like caveman being like if you don't have sex with me i I will leave. And I was like, wow. Yeah. Like, but again, like why is no one empowering you to feel confident in having these like communications? And I think as well, I remember looking after someone postnatally and she said to me, oh, do you mind telling my husband that I can't have sex for like 10 weeks or something? And I was like, oh, is there a reason for that?

Like, she was like, no, but it's just because his friends have told him that, you know, it's fine after like six weeks and three weeks and I just want to give myself space. And I was like, that's absolutely fine. I'm happy to do what you want. But equally, I want you to understand that you can tell him that I'm not actually ready.

And if you're telling me that I'm not actually ready. And if you're telling me that there are no issues here in terms of, you know, issues between the two of you, he will understand that and it will be better than you feeling like you need to lie. Like, you know, that whole, oh yeah, you're cleared for sex after six weeks. It is like, it's not literal, like, and it's not really helpful. You're cleared for sex when you feel cleared for sex that's when you're cleared for sex like that's that's literally the long and short of it um and so you know it's it's it's there it's those kind of toxic messaging um that definitely feed the benefits of men um you know yeah and put us in a position where we feel like we have to lie or that we feel like we're inadequate or that we you know there's something wrong with us yeah yeah i remember like i got six week check and

then i have you thought about contraception and i was like hell no what do i need that for i haven't even thought about what i was like i'm pretty sure the fact that i've still got like stitches and i'm bleeding like that that'll do it i remember saying to my my gp i was like no abstinence is more than enough darling we're absolutely fine like if people are like listening to this thinking like okay i would like to book a session with you how can they do that so if you can head to my instagram mixing up motherhood and you can see sort of what other people think and stuff to get a feel um and then you can also head to my website which is www.mixingupmotherhood.com but what I will mention as well is I try and keep the space and the service as accessible as possible and I do have

a scheme which is a paid forward scheme where people anonymously will pay for other people to have a session I tend to have a lot of sort of a few of these every month available and I don't ask for any any reasons or anything you just need to say I'm in need of help I can't actually afford it and the session if I've got one available is yours or you'll go on a waiting list so don't let money be a factor if you feel that I can support you just feel free to message me and I will put you on the list or give you a session if I've got it available you don't need to follow me you don't need to have engaged with me it's not about that it's just about trying to keep it as accessible as possible so that's what you could do I didn't know about that service that's amazing um before I go I do want to

share a positive birth story because I do love to hear them and I love to hear people experiencing them so this is from Emily who got in touch hi my name's Emily and I've got a little baby boy Jesse who's about four months younger than Alf um I actually didn't know who you were until I became a mum and started or I was you know pregnant and started following you and ever since I not only have followed you but I also listen to all your podcasts each week and I've found watching and listening to your journey with Alf really really interesting and helpful for me so thank you very much for that. I've just listened to your last podcast when you

said that you're going to have an elective C with your next baby and I just wanted to say that I had an elective C with my first because he was breech and I have such a positive birth experience and I absolutely loved it even down to the fact that I did like my hair and makeup before we went in for the surgery so all my pictures I actually think that I look quite nice which I know shouldn't matter at all but it does and I loved looking back at those pictures um so that was really great and I loved it um one of the things I was most worried about or anxious about in pregnancy was um not knowing when when I was going to go into labour and when I was going to have him and that caused me quite a lot of anxiety so knowing that I had a date booked in and everything obviously I knew that he could come early but even even just knowing that there was a date booked in me

like really made me feel better and the whole process with me and my husband going in together and everything it was just amazing it was just great um however it was in lockdown so when we um once we had him I was then really rushed to get home because I obviously visiting hours were so reduced because of Covid and everything um so I went home the day after which I'm really glad I did but one thing I didn't realize about was the fact that the hospital beds are really great at getting you to sit up because obviously you had so much cut through I didn't realize how dependent you were on those muscles to actually sit up and so without the use of the hospital bed when I got home I found that really difficult and I ended up they say you should swing your legs over the side of the bed and that will kind of pivot you up um which is great unless you have a next to me which I did and then I was like well

what do I do now um so that was the biggest challenge for me and I would now suggest I know it's really difficult but if you can stay in hospital for two nights um minimum then i would just to give your body chance to recover and get used to the fact that you don't have a hospital bed at home um that will help you kind of sit up and back down again so yeah um i hope everything goes well good luck and thank you so much for all your help oh i love that positive and also really good advice exactly and also it's just like an elective cesarean section can be really positive and also really good advice. Exactly. And also it's just like an elected cesarean section can be really positive and also because you make the decision

based on what your needs are, which is exactly what she did and hopefully what you're doing as well. Emily, thank you so much for messaging in. I love hearing from you all. So if you want to get in touch, whether it's something we talked about today, whether it's something you want me

to talk about on the podcast, whatever it might be, you can get in touch on WhatsApp like Emilyily did either a message or a voice message which is free and the number is 075 999 27537 or you can email in at askmumsthewordpod at gmail.com and of course if you want to leave an apple review then i can find those messages as well and obviously it's really helpful to leave reviews so that other people can find us and hopefully you enjoyed this episode and hopefully it's been um informative and empowering for anyone that is going through birth trauma and illy thank you so much for your time as well and for our actual birth debrief which was really helpful for me in my

own journey and so now i have to rush back to al who is off from the trial minders so i will see you back with another episode same time same place next week i'm sure as parents we all know how messy things can get, whether that's around the house, during meal times, and even when it comes to our little ones themselves. When it comes to wiping Alf's messy face and body, I want to be sure that what I am using is the best choice for his skin. With baby eczema and nappy rash being common conditions, using wipes for sensitive skin is a must. using wipes for sensitive skin is a must. We've both been loving water wipes. We've actually used them since Alf was born and they gently clean and help protect

delicate newborn and premature baby skin. They're made of just two ingredients, so 99.9% water and a drop of fruit extract. That means they are the best wipe choice for sensitive skin. Alf loves them and I even find myself using them.