Mum's The Word! The Parenting Podcast - The Maternal Mental Load with Cat Sims

Episode Date: April 2, 2023

You can love your kids without loving motherhood! We speak to blogger and author Cat Sims to chat realities of motherhood, prioritising your own health, her birth advice, the importance of communication, the importance of sharing your experiences and the maternal mental load.All whilst Ashley is having contractions!You can find Cat @notsosmugnowAnd her book on Amazon here: https://www.amazon.co.uk/First-Time-Smiled-Just-Wind/dp/0008526141Send us your experiences, positive or not, to [e-mail] or on whatsapp at 07599927537---A Create Podcast Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

well hello i was just saying before pressing record that i'm having some i want to say t minor contractions so i'm hoping that they're braxton hicks and i'm not about to be the first podcaster maybe there's maybe there are podcasters who've given birth during a podcast, but I hope that is not going to be me. And I hope this is going to pass. And I hope as a result, I managed to get through today's podcast because I've got an amazing guest. Also, I'm just not ready to give birth yet. I have packed both my hospital bag and the baby's hospital bag.

I've got 80% of the gifts that I'm going to give Alf basically I'm buying Alf from his baby sister a new doll which is a ride it's like an interactive one and a pram I've got the car seat now and the pram and but the changing table comes tomorrow so like all her clothes are just everywhere she doesn't have a room she's not going to have a room um unless we decide to build one so I need that changing table to come before I give birth basically is what I'm saying I'm not going to be uh doing any of the organizing whilst recovering from a c-section and I do not trust Tommy to do it and you know what I kind of envy him for how I mean don't be wrong I always feel like I have to caveat what I'm about to say with he is a bloody amazing dad that he has definitely done

about 90% of um you know bath time bedtime getting up with Alf early in the morning like I am I'm pretty useless at this stage of pregnancy but the mental load is still very very much on me when it comes to buying and thinking about newborn things and that is actually going to be a hot topic of today's conversation with my very brilliant and funny guest and so we're going to be looking at a new word that has made its way into the parent dictionary or making its way. I'll be honest, I hadn't heard about it. For what we know is the mental load. I'm not even going to try and explain it because I want her to.

So joining me today, very excited. It's author, podcaster, content creator, mum to two girls. And honestly, she uses her platform for such good and honesty as well. It's Kat Sims. Hello, thank you so much for having me. Thank you. And also, by the way, I have your book in my hand, The First Time You Smiled or Was It Just Wind? And I can't wait to fill it out with baby girl. So I wrote it specifically that even if you bought it and didn't fill it in, it would still be really useful because sometimes people are like, I just don't want another thing

to do when I've just had a baby. And then they feel bad that they haven't done it. But I did put a lot in there. I tried to make it really parent centric and also really inclusive because let's face it, people, loads of baby journals still assume that a man and a woman had sex, put a penis in a man and a woman had sex, put a penis in a vagina and a baby arrived. And actually so many people have babies in a million different ways. So thank you. Let's get the plug out of the way early on. I appreciate that. Well, I just like the, I like the intro, like the very first paragraph. Parenting did not come easily to me. Let's start with that. C the table balls out honesty in fact I pretty much screwed it up right from the start or so I thought and I love

that because I feel like that sort of honesty just resonates as opposed to these really sort of twee books and I'll be honest I never filled in any of them with Alf and I do feel guilty a because people were very kind and bought me the gift and B because I realized how quickly it goes that you forget all their first things, even like the non, you know, not like the big milestones, like walking, crawling, talking, but all the like, what were his first words beyond mama and dada? And how did he say this? And, you know, Tommy and I were always like, what was that again? They would just move so quickly, don't they? So I kind of regret not filling it in now. So I'm going to make an effort with her. Well, they do.

But also that book, you can record all of those milestones in there as well. But I also put in other things like the first time you had, you know, sex after you had a baby and things like that, because I wanted to make it about the parent. But also when we're like doing their speeches for their weddings or 18th or 21st, we don't go, oh, well, she walked the first time when, you know, July the 18th, whenever, whenever. We're like, well, I remember the first time where she cut her own hair and rubbed lipstick into my bedsheets and all of that. And so it gives the books about recording all of that stuff as well. I love that it's like the first time you had sex. So not wanting to give to your kid on their 18th birthday. Mommy and daddy recorded this for you.

Do you know what? I think you should give it or maybe not on their 18th, but definitely give it to them when they're about to have a baby. Like if they're about to have a baby, I want that book to be with them. So you'd be like, this is what it's actually really like. You know, don't worry about the pink bunnies and the blue bunnies and, you know, the little stalks carrying. Let's not talk about that. This is actually what it's really like. This was the

first fight we had. This was the first time we both ended up in tears on the floor after you were born. That's kind of what I hope we do pass on. Do you know what? I'd be really interested, not to know about my parents' sex life, but what the reality was like for them, especially because they're quite like emotionally closed people. It would be quite interesting. especially because they're quite like emotionally closed people it would be quite interesting also because it was just a different generation then like my dad is still just I don't know to be honest I don't know why my mom's still with him she still makes packed lunch she does dining and I keep trying to intervene being like dad you know you could do this yourself and he's like Ashley my relationships work perfectly well for 40 years without your input thank you very much

and I'm like but you do nothing but do you what? Like I've had to accept that that's true. Like I've had to accept that they are, every relationship is different, right? From any generation. And they are doing, they are far more advanced than their parents were. We are far more advanced than our parents were. And our kids will be far more advanced in their emotional intelligence when it comes to relationships than we were. And so I have to sort of just go, do you know what? It works for them. And there are times when I see like my mum, not now because she's sick. So he, my dad does a lot of stuff, but before, you know, I used to see her get resentful and now I wish I'd like, I wish they'd had the tools that

we have and the space that we have to have those conversations. But it was very much like this was the done thing. You know, we looked after the men in our life and we took care of the house and all of that stuff. And they went out and earned a living. And that's not necessarily wrong. That's just how it was. necessarily wrong that's just how it was yeah it's weird to me that you know a lot of our parents generation like the mum also was going out to work but they still had that they still had all of that parenting to do and I feel like for our generation obviously this is speaking on really general terms

we're doing it all but men are men are stepping up way more than old generations but they still get like the praise like so much praise for it and that's why i thought it'd be really interesting because i know um i want to talk about the word kin keeping yeah because i know this is something that you talk about and i still don't quite get it so i want you to explain it in your words because it is a sort of maternal mental load, isn't it? Well, it is. But I actually have a real problem with that word, because for years, decades, we have been talking about the mental load. We've been talking about unpaid labor. We've been talking about cognitive labor, all of that stuff. And then in recently in the last I mean, I've never heard this word until the last few months.

Kinnkeeping came out and it came out via a TikToker who was studying women's studies. She was an embryo. She was like 12, but that wasn't her fault. And she was like, you know, this has blown my mind, this idea that women are the kinkeepers and they do all of this stuff. And, you know, and everybody jumped on it. And they were like, yeah, kinkeeping. And Grazia wrote about it.

Stylist wrote about it. Everybody did. And I thought, hang on a minute, why are we all suddenly taking notice when we're giving it this warm, fuzzy, cozy, like maternal nurturing name? Oh, you're a kin keeper. When actually it's just a lot of work. And when we've been saying it's a lot of work before nobody really took any notice. But as soon as it was couched in this language that felt less threatening to the patriarchy and less threatening to men in general, it was all of a sudden everywhere. And I thought, you know what, there's a problem here because this is hard work. I don't know about you,

but managing a house and a family and kids is like running a business. You are the accountant, you're the cleaner, you're the PR person, you're the PA, the maintenance guy, all of that stuff. And it is work. It's not kin keeping. It's not like a lovely sort of responsibility that's been bestowed upon us. It sounded like it was something that we'd been inherited from the generations, like a secret that we all kept that mums passed down to women. And I was like, this is just really damaging because the mental load is a real issue, especially when kids are thrown into the mix. And I think it's something that we don't talk about enough. I think it's something that women really struggle with and don't feel like they have the space to talk about it. And that's whether actually you're a working mum or not, whatever it is. And I think that it's really important that we bust these

myths that we have inherited. And it's not that men are bad and we're great. It's not that at all, because men have also inherited from their dads what they should be doing. We need to, you know, if there's a man who doesn't get kin keeping or the mental load, whatever it is, that doesn't make him a bad man. If there's a man who doesn't want to understand that, that's different. But we need to start having these conversations. By the way, for anyone listening who may not know or may not have heard of the maternal mental load, maybe you're pregnant or thinking about being pregnant or hoping to be pregnant or in kind of new parenting days, because I definitely never heard of it.

It's basically the invisible load that I guess you can't really explain until you're in it. And I thought I was in this really equal relationship and I am I am in a very equal relationship um but I still feel like you know for all the amazing things Tommy does it like I'm the one thinking like when are our clothes going to be too small oh the seasons are changing has he got a coat school trips like this week is half term and our child minor doesn't work at half term so it's been me being like, right, who's going to look after that? All that stuff tends to fall on the woman, whether that's like a dentist's appointment or a doctor's appointment. It's that like constant ticker tape that runs through your head from the minute you wake up

to the minute you go to bed, like changing the beds, buying the presents, RSVPing to invitations, making sure everybody's parents are okay. Because apparently I now have to call my husband's mom to check that she's all right. You all of that stuff. And you said something interesting. You were like, his brain doesn't just, it just doesn't work that way. His brain doesn't, but it can. And I do think that, and I know, and I can only speak from my experience, but I expect if we're all honest, it will probably resonate. For the longest time, it didn't occur to me that that wasn't entirely my job. And then when it did occur to me in that I got really resentful and angry and shouty and hated my husband, it didn't occur to me that I could delegate because I just thought that

I was the only one who could do it, that my brain was the only one that saw it. And actually, nine times out of 10, they're completely oblivious to that work. Not because they don't care, but because actually we don't, we, we, as women, we just do it and we don't go, I've done this. I've done this. I had a friend once who decided one day to put post-it notes around the house of all, of all the, like on all the invisible load stuff that she did so like it was she like put it on the windows like I cleaned the windows on the beds I changed the beds today you know I love the passive-aggressive nature of that I'm so here for that me too and

recently I Jimmy was like we were having a big talk about it when the kin keeping term came up and uh Jimmy said listen what I need to know everything. Like what is in this mental load? I was like, right. And because I've got ADHD, I was like, I'm not just going to tell you. I'm going to make a project out of this. So for the next day, I became hyper fixated on making a list of absolutely everything I could think of that goes through my head. And I put it all into a document and I printed it out and I put it onto a board and I stuck it on the fridge.

And I put it all into a document and I printed it out and I put it onto a board and I stuck it on the fridge. And now I passively, aggressively, passive aggressively put my little initial by the ones that I've done. Just, you know, just to say. But he was he was really shocked, but also was like, OK, well, I'm really glad that's there, because if I've got some downtime, I can just look at this list. And I was like, yeah, you can. But isn't that part of the mental load as well? Because even having to delegate or even having to tell them, why don't you do this? You're still essentially managed. You're still the project manager. Well, yeah, I mean, there is.

But to be honest, we can't have our cake and eat it. You know, we can't complain about having too much to do and not being supported. And that's true. When we set up a system where somebody can support us, they go, well, that's also another thing. Like, and also the idea is that once you've kind of got into the habit of it, you don't need to always do that anymore. But I do think we don't give our husbands, our men credit enough. Cause I think you, like you say, most of, most of men, most of the men we're married to in our generation are really open to making sure this

relationship is equal. And I do think, you know, my husband reacted in a really positive way to it and he's got up and he's done it. Not all men will, but I think most men in our generation are open to having that conversation. But I think sometimes we're guilty of not being very clear about what it is. And I know I used to rely on telepathy as like a communication tool. It's not effective generally. Wait, it's not? I know. Chocker. I thought you do telepathy and then they don't get it. And then one day you just explode at them and they're like, well, what the fuck? Yeah, that's exactly, that's what I thought too. But apparently if you just say,

I've got this list of stuff to do today, can you do this half and I'll do this half? Apparently, they're just like, yeah, okay, fine, I'll do it. And then you're like, oh. And it is really hard. And I think communication is, I've just been writing, I'm writing an article at the moment, I've been interviewing people about regretting getting divorced. And that's been such an interesting conversation. And it all comes down to communication. And all of them, without exception, say, I just wish we'd actually talked about how we feel. And I think so often as women,

we go off and we're very happy to talk to our sisters, our friends, our therapists. And we'll be really honest about how we're feeling. And actually the one person that we really need to have that conversation with is our husband and, or our partner. And we, we just, I don't know what it is, but we really struggle to be vulnerable with our partners in that way. Oh, see, we're good at that. I have a rule that I'm like, we don't take our issues to people outside because suddenly then you've got so many opinions about

your relationship, but then you two don't actually know what the issue is. And then when you fix it, people already have their set opinions. So I always say like, if there's a problem, we talk about it, like we don't take it outside. And that's probably also like the benefit of being 33 when I met him and, you know, being single for a long time. Different things work for different people. And again, that's the other thing. Like there are people, there are women who are like, I just really want to do that. Like I want to be at home.

I want to take care of the house and I want to, and it's like, that's fine. It's only a problem if it's a problem. And if you're building resentments, then the chances are it's because you had an expectation and that expectation has not been met. So you had an expectation that he would help out more or that you wouldn't be doing all of this by yourself and that's not been met and so therefore you you start to get resentful and like you say we don't I think at first we don't recognize it I think we've also been shown we've been modeled that we hold on to those resentments know, I know my mum was very much an advocate of the martyr mum and, you know, it took me a long time to let go of that and go, actually, this is our house. It's not just my house. These are our kids.

It's not just my kids. And the responsibility doesn't just fall on me. Yeah. It's funny, isn't it? Sometimes, you know, Tommy will be like, I do so much for you, like every day, you know, I've been doing the cooking or the cleaning and we joke that he's Cinderella. But I'm like, but you know, you're not doing that for me. Like you also live here as an adult. So like technically the washing and the cooking and the cleaning is as much your responsibility as it is mine. And he's like, oh, yeah. It's kind of like how we've been raised or like what's been drilled into us. As if they're doing us a favor. Even at the Brit Awards, I don't know if you watched it, but there was a clip where the presenter, Mo Gilligan, who is brilliant and really funny,

was obviously having to try and fill time. And he said to Leanne Pinnock from Little Mix, who's the mother of twins, he was like, so who's babysitting tonight? And I was like, you did not just ask that question because every time I go out, I get asked that question. Tommy went away for work for an entire week to California and not one person asked who was looking after the kids.

But we both work and we both, you know, do our bit. But the assumption is it's always us who are the babysitters. And it's, do you know what? I posted that on my stories as well. And I said exactly the same thing. I mean, my husband's musician, he's literally on Sunday, he left to go away for five weeks. Every time I leave the house or every time I'm even on Instagram and my kids aren't visible, somebody's like, oh, where are the kids? Well, who's with the kids?

And I'm like, I bet you nobody on that tour bus ever says to Jimmy, oh, who's looking after the kids? You're right. And that is the sort of thing that it's not a favor. Jimmy will come down and go, oh, I've cleaned the kitchen for you. I'm like, no, you've cleaned your kitchen. Like that's all you've done. And that's okay. But also I do know, and this took me tens of thousands of pounds of couples therapy to really admit and get on board with. I was blissfully unaware of the pressure that Jimmy was feeling. And it was a different load. But he, especially when the babies were younger, he was financially responsible for all of us. And I had no idea how much that played on him. And acknowledging that was difficult. And also there are some things that they do do for us. And it's not because it's not his responsibility. But I now see Jimmy taking out the bins and cleaning out the cat litter tray as an act of love.

Like he, he is a responsibility, but like you say, he doesn't have to do it. Plenty of men who don't, but he does it because that is, it's like a, I guess it's like a little love letter to our relationship. It's like, I've got this, like I do this and this is my thing. And, and that, and acknowledging that doesn't mean that I have to be like, well, yeah, you should be doing more. But actually, you know, I have to make an effort to really recognize the things that he does do as well, even if he could be doing more. It's really important for me to go, you know what, that thanks for that. And I always, always try and say thank you when he's done something. Not because he's done it as a favor for me, but because it's like a team.

We're a team, right? And if I was, you know, if I was with, I don't know, a tennis partner playing doubles and we won, I'd be like, dude, thanks. You know, you did the work. I've done the work. We're here together and we've made it work. It's so funny that you say about the bins because when Tommy went away for work

and it was like Monday, which has been day in my area, I was like, who's going to do the bins? And also I realized that I've got such a bad habit of every time I get a parcel, I just like put the box by the door. I don't even bother flat packing it. And then I like come down later and I'm like, he's not put the boxes away.

But yeah, I probably do need to say thanks for doing the boxes when I see the dishes on top of the dishwasher and they're not in there I'm like like that for me it used to be a real trigger because all I thought when I saw that was she'll fucking do it like that's what that's what I thought that's what I saw into it and then afterwards um my we were in therapy and the therapist said, okay, so it's not really about the dishwasher. It's because you're not, you haven't been, you don't feel like you've been kept in mind. And that one sentence was such a game changer for us because it gave us language to talk about

things without it being accusatory. So it wasn't about what he'd done or not done. It was about how I felt. And I was like, this has made me feel like you've not kept me in mind. And that was such a game changer because it meant we didn't have fight and he would go, oh, okay. I get it. I get it. But yeah, I do that. I don't put the boxes down. I think we're living a parallel life because also my husband's gone away on Sunday and my recycling pile, I'm just playing bin jenga at the moment. Nobody else is going to take it out. It's going to be me, but I just can't bring myself to do it. So it's just getting bigger and bigger and bigger, you know, and it wouldn't be there if he was here. I guess it's about focusing on the things they do do rather than the things they

don't. But also what I realized, even with the maternal mental load, I actually like being in control of those things like even when I rented with friends I was always the person in charge of the bills in charge of the finances you know like anything to do that I enjoy it so I think my resentment came from society as a as a whole you know like Tommy walking down the down the street with a pram and people literally like cooing whereas I'd be like have stitches up my vagina trying to walk down the pram like walk down the street with a pram and people literally like cooing. Whereas I'd be like, have stitches up my vagina trying to walk down the street with a pram and people would like practically throw me onto the road, tutting like, I'm in the way. So I always describe this because I felt exactly the same way. The bar for men to be good dads is so low. Whereas, you know, for us, it's almost completely unattainable in terms of being good mums. But I used to say, I said to Jimmy, I feel like you're the swan and I'm the legs.

And like everybody sees you do this amazing dadding parenting, you know, thing. And I'm underneath going like this, like making sure everything else is done. And I said, the thing is, I don't mind. I actually quite like doing a lot of those jobs. But I said, the thing is, I don't mind. I actually quite like doing a lot of those jobs, but I really resent the lack of acknowledgement. And he used to say, you know, I used to get accused sometimes of not being, you know, I don't do, I'm really bad at like crafts and cooking and all of that stuff with the kids. And he'd be like, you know, I wish you'd do some more of that stuff. And I was like, do you know what? There's a million different versions of parenting.

That is just one. Also making sure their beds are changed and their uniforms clean and they've got money on their school meals account. Like that's also parenting. And that's also what makes them feel safe and loved and cared for. And so if we can balance this out a little bit more,

I'll be able to do more. I mean, I probably won't because I hate cooking and crafting, but I'll do more. We really are living parallel lives, like crafts and cooking. Or like when I see people be like, oh, we've got a day off today. Maybe we'll do some baking and some painting. I'm like, fucking hell. I wish I was that person.

I can't think of anything. I'd rather eat my own kidney. Like I'd rather eat my own kidney. Because I need to get out. Like I spend time with the kids. The thought of being trapped in the house with to get out like I spend time with the kids the thought being trapped in the house with my kids is like the worst thing and I know they'll just end up watching television because we did do a jigsaw yesterday actually but I really like jigsaws and I I'm just not very good

at doing the pretend play stuff so if I'm on my own with the kids I'm like right we're going out we'll go to a theater or we'll go to the museum or we'll, I don't know, go wherever. Um, in fact, I was just saying to your producer before that I'm taking them swimming this afternoon, which is a real selfless act of love because swimming is, nobody would have children if they told you about swimming with kids before. Nobody would. It's just horrific. Anyway, I'm doing that because I'm, you know, I want to spend time with them and have a good horrific anyway I'm doing that because I'm you know I want to spend time with them have a good time I'm a martyr I'm a brilliant mum um but it's yeah you know being a parent and being a mum is I think we have to take responsibility for break for working towards breaking that we can't just go I hate this rhetoric that's like well they should just know

like if they don't know like they've got they, they're grown men. Why can't they just figure it out? It's like, well, okay, I get it. We can be angry about that. Or we can actually do something to try and fix it. Like, let's not cut our noses off to spite our face. Let's just acknowledge that most of our men are actually good, kind people and do want to help. But, you know, we have to educate in a way that our parents didn't and I think also like be part of the people who challenge that sort of like high praise on men because but don't be wrong that great that men get praised for being good dads like of course the world needs more good dads but it's like the lack of acknowledgement of us that I always say to Tommy or even my dad was like, you're so lucky, Ashley.

God, you've got such a good partner. And I was like, are you going to say the same to Tommy? Because I'm a pretty good partner as well, by the way. I do a lot too. And then, you know, if ever I'll see him and we have to pick him up from childcare, I'll say to Tommy, well, he's employed and I'm self-employed. So I'll be like, well, you get paid to take time off, whereas I don't. So can you tell your boss that you need to do it?

Because I think the more bosses stop seeing it as a woman's issue, you know, like a mother issue, then the more there will be like equality in the workplace. So yeah, I feel like it's on all of us as parents, isn't it? To try and like keep challenging those sort of stereotypes. Totally. And I really believe in this idea of like attraction, not promotion. So, you know, rather than being like, you need to do this,

what you should do is this. It's like, I really try to kind of use, especially use my platform to be like, so this happened, like, this is my experience. And this is kind of how we dealt with it. Because I think that that means that people don't like being told what to do. And, and again, this is massive generalization, but the men in my life that I know are particularly resistant to being told what to do. And I get it because, you know, it is challenging a deeply held belief in their masculinity that they should just know, or they shouldn't, they know lots of things and we can be mad about that or we can work with it. And the reality is I just, you know, if we can share our experience, our positive experiences rather than fighting and being angry and shouting all the time, then I think that that's a more positive way of kind of promoting this idea of what equality is.

But you're right. You know, I've got messages from women this morning. One woman who was a working mum and her dad, her partner did all the pickup and drop-offs and she managed to do one because she finished work early. And another parent said to her, oh, we were wondering if Grace had a mum. And she was like, well, I work and my husband doesn't. So, you know, and it was, and she said, I got in the car and cried. And it's like that comment could have been so innocuous, it was probably meant completely innocuously, maybe even a bit funnily,

but it really cut her to the core. You know, that's a, that's a trauma that will really, that will really infect, affect, sorry, how she parents and how she feels about her way, the way of parenting. And that's, we really have to be careful to avoid that i'm also really baffled by this sort of um yeah the tiktok trend of being like if my wife had had a mom but i'd divorce her like that shows laziness it's like do you not think that women get old or are you going to be one of those people that continuously trades in a woman for like another 20 year old girl like it's bizarre like if your version of love is like purely the objectification of like a body that society deems to be perfect you're going to be really disappointed when you start to age mate it's baffling to me perfect, you're going to be really disappointed when you start

to age, mate. It's baffling to me too. And I think this plays into a lot of this kind of Andrew Tate conversation that's happening. And I think that's at the extreme end. And I think it's really filtering out to all sorts of... It's filtering out to our boys, it's filtering out to our husbands sometimes. And I would hope that the majority of people look at that and know that that's a ridiculous thing to say. And I think they do, but you're right. The fact that that conversation is even out there and happening is baffling. I'd rather like just ignore that rather than ignore it and do what I can to like fight that concept those conceptions within my circle and within my my sphere of influence I suppose as well it's like challenging those thoughts because it's not

a new concept that we were growing up whether it's our daughters or us like growing up around this idea that we need to be valuable or attractive to men in like men just aren't boys aren't really taught that they have to like be appealing and I do think I hope that girls will start to grow up seeing that actually you know that all these phrases that we heard like being left on the shelf or hoping to be picked before we're 30 otherwise we have to marry our platonic friends because clearly that's better than being single and actually like waiting for the right person. Yeah, I'd like to think that we are evolving, even though there's kind of like the vermin, like the Andrew Tate's of the world doing their bit.

Yeah. I mean, there are always going to be vermin. But also, you know, we can't forget that men have been brought up to and told that they have to be successful. You know, they have to be the breadwinners. They have to be doing this, that, and the other. And so sometimes I think, you know, the nuance of these conversations is sometimes forgotten. And I love these conversations that challenge the stereotypes that women are subjected to that really keep us down and that really mean that we're not smashing glass ceilings and we don't have the freedoms that we think we do. But I also

and we don't have the freedoms that we think we do. But I also don't agree with cutting off the conversation that suggests that men also have things that they are struggling with. And I think we are actually really behind in that conversation. I think as women, where it's much more open and there's much more space for us to talk about how we need to fight these

restrictive stereotypes. But I think there's still a reluctance to accept that actually a lot of our men struggle with that. If you think about male mental health, that's still a huge issue that we're not tackling. Male suicide is still huge. Talk about, I can't remember his name, but there's a book. I think his name is Billy, but I can't remember his surname. And he wrote a book. I really hope it was called Billy No Mates because that would be great. But it was about how men tend not to have these really tight circles of friends that they can talk to in the way that we can talk to our girlfriends. And so there are real issues with men aren't idiots. Most men, Andrew Tate and that lot

excluded, aren't discriminatory to us because they are horrible people, but because they are in themselves dealing with their own inherited habitual learnings and that kind of thing. And so sometimes I feel like this conversation can be a bit one-sided and it's like yeah it is important but we've got to have the men in this conversation too and we've got to accept that we need to change too by the way I did a really good podcast episode with a guy called Matt Pinkett who wrote a book he's a teacher and he's trying to tackle toxic masculinity within schools and he did um wrote a brilliant book called boys don't try about how we're basically failing boys and obviously the knock-on effect

that has to girls as well yeah it's really good so if you haven't listened to the podcast you should check it out i'm definitely going to listen to that one yeah it's really interesting especially because he is a teacher and he is like what you would say is like a typical alpha male man and um he basically noticed because he's alpha male like a lot of boys sort of like feeling like they had to perform to him whether that was like rape jokes or whatever it might be like to impress him so really really interesting episode um if you want to listen especially if you have a son or i mean i guess it's good for anyone to listen to because even if you have daughters it's like important to kind of understand yeah mentality um but one thing I would love to talk to you about because um I love your honesty in this area is

your struggle to transition into parenthood I just love hearing people's journeys about becoming parents especially becoming mothers and I know that you talk a lot about how it kind of left you feeling isolated and lonely and lost and I know that you also had postnatal depression as well so could you share a little bit more about your your matricence journey my parents gave me love when I achieved things right so when I did things well when I won swim meets or got top grades or whatever, that was when I got the most attention. So my whole life was like, I have to do things well. And I approached parenting, becoming a mother in exactly the same way. I read all the books, I did all the courses. I was like,

I'm in complete control. When I went into labor, I turned up and I want to go back and punch myself in the face for this, but I turned up with like a four page, double-sided birth plan, color coded. And I shit you not Ashley, laminated. And I handed it over and she was like, oh, thanks for that. I can only imagine what they said at like the midwife station when I was out of earshot, because I was like, I'm going to control this. And if, and I'd always been taught, like if you work hard and you prepare, then you'll be successful. And I was like, this is how it's going to go. And of course, then you go into labor and absolutely nothing else matters. It doesn't matter how many books you've read or not read. It doesn't matter whether you've been to courses or anything.

It's completely out of your control. And that sent me into, during labor, a panic attack, anxiety spiral. I don't know what it was but I was absolutely batshit crazy it was horrific birth and you know the crash cart would be called in two or three times I was like seconds away from emergency section in the end she did come out but they had to do like lots of cutting and oh it gives me the ebgbs now and I think that traumatized me so much not that I even gave that a second thought because that was just apparently what birth is. Like birth is just a bit messy, right? Actually, no, that is really traumatic. That can be really traumatic. And

the effects of that are not really, not really. Nobody said this was actually a really tricky birth. Do you want to talk about it? Is there anything you want me to go through with you? Everybody's like, oh, well, here's your baby. Well done. Off you go, home you go. And I went home and I just was absolutely lost. And I was overwhelmed and I was baffled. And I just did not know who I was, what I was doing. And I remember looking at her in a car seat in the living room when we first brought her home from the hospital. And I was like, I remember having this thought, it's like, I'm never going to be able to have a bath again. Like that was my, like, I was like, God, this is, I am never going to be able to do anything.

And it wasn't a selfish thing. It was just a feeling of complete failure. Like it was this sudden hit that I was completely incapable of doing this. And that was really terrifying. And then I had really terrible experiences breastfeeding. And I used to get to a point where I would shake every time she was given to me to feed, like uncontrollable shaking. And I would just cry. And I just remember tears of mine dropping onto her face while I was feeding. It was just awful. Was that because you were struggling with breastfeeding or it was because

it gave you like a sort of anxiety or a dread? Oh, I was struggling, really struggling with breastfeeding. But I think that was also to do with my mindset. Like now I think about it, it's very, very difficult. Like breastfeeding is not easy. And it takes a lot of connection and understanding with your baby to get that. And I just didn't have it. I didn't have that connection. I didn't have a bond. On an animalistic instinctive level, I would have jumped in front of a bus for her. But on an emotional level, I was absolutely dead. I could

not figure it out. And I gave her a bottle after about eight weeks. And obviously I was terrified because I'd been made to feel it was, formula was basically a mix of like cocaine, tequila, and dung beetles. And I called the health visitor the next morning and I was sobbing hysterical. And I was like, I just need you to tell me I'm not a bad mum. And she said, oh, well, you can always try to undo the damage you've done when it comes to weaning. And that one sentence, going back to those things that people think are quite innocuous that they say, that one sentence probably, even now, if I think about it, it makes me want to cry, that one sentence probably, even now, if I think about it, it makes me want to cry,

was the most damaging thing anybody had ever said to me. And of course, at the time I didn't recognize that. I just thought, well, she's a health expert. So she must know what she's talking about. I'm just going to have to accept that I'm damaging my baby and I'll do my best I can to fix her later on. And I sank into this very, very deep postnatal depression. And my husband, he had been there for the first month, but then went on tour for seven to eight months. And I was on my own. I was in London. I wasn't anywhere near family. I wasn't working. I'm also an addict in recovery. And that was the point at which my drinking really, really ramped up because there's nothing like being an isolated new mom if you're an addict to feed that addiction. It's the perfect breeding ground. The truth is that first year of my eldest's life was the worst year of my life. And it's also the root at which my relationship, that's where the relationship started to disintegrate. In the end, we managed, like four years later, I asked for a divorce and we managed to bring it back.

But that was the point at which, because there was so much resentment, he was like, why can't you just mother like everybody else? You know, he didn't feel safe leaving the baby with me because when he was on tour, but he had to go because he had to work. I was like, why can't you just be around? You know, and it was just a horrific set of circumstances that we didn't talk about. And it really, really damaged us. And it damaged me. You know, I had suicidal thoughts in that first year. I just wanted to run away. I didn't want to be anywhere near it. It was horrendous.

And now I look back on it and I am so compassionate for that person that I was. And I used to hate her. I used to, I used to be so angry with her and I couldn't forgive her for not being the mum that I really thought that baby needed. And it was only after a year I was diagnosed with postnatal depression. I went back onto antidepressants and got some therapy and started to work through it and also started to have the confidence to go, I am not the mom that wants to be with my kids 24 hours a day. That's okay. I'm a mom that needs to get away for a weekend every now and again, or go to the gym for an hour every day. That's the mom I am. And I'm not going to apologize for it it anymore but it took time and it took a lot of understanding and therapy and communication with Jimmy and and all the people

around me um and a lot of them weren't responsive to you know I've got an older sister who was like for goodness sake like just you know he goes to work, this is your job. And I was like, just don't buy it. I just, it's just not for me. I need more than that. And maybe that makes me a needy mum, but I'm all right with that. You know, I'm, I'm a better mum when I am making sure that my mental health is, is fine. But, you know, it, it had long lasting ramifications because I didn't deal with it. You know, I did sink into alcoholism and addiction. And I know that that is the root, the point at which I learned to deal with all of those horrific feelings. That was why, that was like the trigger, I think, to my eventual addiction issues. First, I'm so sorry that that was your first year experience,

but it's also so nice to hear as well because I remember saying to Tommy, I just wish I was a dad. If I could get my life back straight away and I could go back to work and I could literally just change a nappy and everyone would be like, wow, you're amazing. And I felt like I'm the only one not enjoying this. And because I didn't really want children, I was like, well, I should have listened to my gut. Why did I have a baby?

And even though, like you said, primitively, instinctively, I loved him. I'd do anything for him. I was also like, this isn't for me. And I've made this massive, permanent mistake. But then I'd feel like the devil. I remember Googling in the middle of the night, like, have I made a mistake? Oh, God, the dreaded. Like, does anyone else

regret motherhood because it seemed like from the outside everyone else was living this rosy that even now when i go to soft play that is my martyr mom i'm like i look around i'm like are people actually enjoying this like but i think so many of us feel like how you felt or you know obviously to different extents but there must be so many of us who are like, this is so boring. Well, it is boring. This is the thing. You can love your kids without loving the job of motherhood.

Like anybody who says, I love finding dirty, snotty socks down the sofa and picking them out four weeks later. I love finding a sticky lollipop shoved in a bed because my kids stole it and took it to bed. I love clearing up puke and poo. That's what I love. They cannot be telling the truth. We love our kids and we are grateful that we get to do those jobs and keep them safe, but it is okay to not love the job of motherhood. It's a pretty crappy job. When it all boils down to it, the fun stuff's great,

but there's a lot of really boring, nasty, horrible drudge that goes with it. Monotony as well. Monotony, boredom, and it's okay. We need to separate those things. I can love my kids. I don't love the job of motherhood. It's exhausting and it's relentless and it requires so much from you that it would be weird if you didn't feel depleted. And I get it. There are times when you have to really lean into that for whatever reason. You have to just put yourself second and go for it. But actually, on any normal given day, you are just as important. Your needs and wants are just as important as your kids' needs and wants. And your husband's needs and wants are just as important.

They're much more comfortable asking for it. You know, men go off to play golf for four hours. Golf is like, I'm not joking. I am so glad Tommy does not play golf, by the way. Me too. Shout out to all the golf wives and girlfriends. Because that's a day. That's a whole day if i said i'm gonna go to the gym for the whole day everybody would like what but golf they're like that's why

i'm sure that's why some men take up golf because they get out of the house for the whole day and what would you say would be the turning point for you that you were like actually this this is okay and i i want to do it again well so funn funnily enough, well, the only reason I'll be honest about this, the only reason I was like, we're having a second baby is because I grew up as an only child and I just did not want any of my kids to grow up like that. And it's not any disrespect to anybody who chooses to have one. But for me, I felt such a loneliness as a kid, being the only kid in a house full of adults and not having that. I was deeply jealous of anybody who had like brothers or sisters. And so I was like, no,

I definitely want to. So I was like, I'm just going to do it. How bad can it be? But actually, I'm so glad I did because it was that second birth that really healed me. And I obviously knew that my first attempt did not work out so I'm going to do something different this time and a friend of mine lovely Holly DeCruz has an incredible um hypnobirthing course and I was like I'm not doing that it's really vagina whispery I'm not that's not for me um and when I said to told Jimmy that we were doing it he was like what anyway we did it and I thought I'll just be open-minded and to be honest I don't really that's not for me. And when I told Jimmy that we were doing it, he was like, what? Anyway, we did it. And I thought, I'll just be open-minded. And to be honest, I don't really remember much of

what we said, but they said one sentence that completely changed my whole approach to birth, which by the way, if you're about to give birth, this is the best thing I've ever heard. I mean, not right now, please don't. Are you really struggling? You feel like you're actually having contractions. I'm having contractions, but I'm you're not going to give that but give me the advice quick just before so basically because i used to be an athlete and so i understood like muscles and bodies and how they work and things and she said your uterus is a muscle and it requires oxygenated blood really rich oxygenated blood to work right most muscles do that all muscles do and if you freak out you're going to start creating

loads of adrenaline and all that oxygen rich blood will be sent to your legs and arms for fight or flight. Your uterus has started. It's not going to stop. It's still going to have to do it, but it's going to be doing it. It's going to be slower, more painful and harder. And I was like, so what you're saying is I just need to stay calm. She was like, that's it. And then hypnobirthing, the rest of it was basically about these breaths will help you do that. These affirmations will help you do that. This kind of planning will help you do that.

It doesn't really matter. You know what helps keep you calm. It could be like Rammstein heavy metal playlist. It doesn't really matter what it is, but it absolutely changed me. So as soon as I went into labor with the second one, I decided to have her at home. And I put my headphones on and I lay on the sofa and Jimmy knew that he was in charge. So he was now talking to the midwives. He was letting everybody, he was blowing up the birth pool. He was the boss. And that was great for him as well, because it gave him a role. It gave him like a space to occupy because men can feel really sidelined in that and powerless. And that's really damaging as well. And I just stayed calm and lit candles and I put

my headphones on and I didn't say a word until she'd had the baby, until I'd had, she'd had the baby, like third person, weird disassociating thing. So I'd had the baby and, and you know, she was three hours in the pool and out she came. And my whole experience after that was entirely different because I hadn't been traumatized and breastfeeding was easy. I never had a blister or a cut or mastitis with my second, not one, nothing. And the first time I couldn't, I couldn't bear it. I mean, my breasts the first time looked like somebody had been at them with a rusty bread knife. It was horrendous. But that was the thing. And it was like, just, just keep calm. And they were like,

well, it's all very easy, but what if it goes wrong? And actually that's, if things start to go badly or wrong, that's when it's even more important to stay calm because your body betrays you. And anxiety and panic is not conducive to giving birth. And it was definitely easier the second time around. I knew what to expect. So it was easier to stay calm. But that's the one thing I say to people having a baby. I'm like, just whatever it takes, try and just stay calm, hand it over. You have no control, hand it over to the people around you, hand it over to your body, just stay calm. And, and that was the game changer for me. I mean, it didn't stop me, like it was all fine for a while. And then obviously, you know, I railed off in all sorts of different ways but um but that really changed my birthing experience and that first year for sure oh I love that I like hearing positive stories especially after

traumatic ones and yeah god I've got so much respect for you doing it vaginally again after traumatic first one because I'm taking a different path but I'm excited as well and I feel like that's what I'm doing to be able to stay calm so but I c-section was never an option for me like I was the second time around I asked I was like can I have a c-section because it was awful and they were like no you had a vaginal birth it was fine we're gonna you know you need to have a vaginal birth now and I was like okay I didn't realize that's how it's worked that's great and and I'm glad I didn't but it wasn't even an option you know it wasn't even I wasn't even heard that's mad isn't it I feel like you can really advocate for a c-section if you want one by the way for anyone listening yeah you can and you should

because it's a really important decision and there's no right way to give birth um and it's all valid but yeah i'm i wish i'd been able to like have that conversation at least i'm very conscious of the time and i'd love to be selfless in this final question but i'm going to be selfish and i'm going to make it about me. What advice would you give for someone like me who's about to go from one to two, especially after struggling in that first year with my first? So for me, and I can only say what worked for me, but the second time around, I first time around, I was like home. I was in mother care at day two crying and screaming I had a breakdown it was horrendous second time around I got into bed uh I ate Chinese takeaway whatever and I was in bed for 10 days and I

watched The Walking Dead on repeat and all I did was sleep and breastfeed and after 10 days in bed I got up and I moved to the sofa but I probably spent another 10 days there. I didn't let anybody in unless they were holding food or willing to clean and agreed that they would leave after 45 minutes. And I really prioritized my own health because the baby will be fine. Like generally, this is what I realized with kids, you really have to go out of your way to do them some damage. I mean, you have to be actively trying to. If you're trying to do the best you can, your baby's fine. And I, but for me, it wasn't the case.

I really had to actively look after myself. And so I just chilled out, didn't care. I don't think I got dressed. I just relaxed. Every time somebody came over I remember somebody came over like oh is she in bed she was like yeah and I was like uh and I'm staying here and you know you can come up and see me but I'm not coming down if you want to see the baby that's fine but a baby seeing a baby at you know 14 days 15 days is no different seeing it day one

like just take the pressure off and hand it all over, let your husband do everything. And that was it really. I mean, I just don't do what I did, which is mistake the plumber for the midwife and show them your, your nipples. Don't do that. We had a female plumber come over and I was like, oh, this nipple's a bit sore. And she was like, you do know that I'm not the midwife, I'm the plumber. And I was like oh this nipple's a bit sore and uh she was like you do know that I'm not the midwife I'm the plumber and I was like well now I do like hostily covering up my boob um but yeah just honestly just lean into it do all those things that you know you think you can't do because it doesn't make you a good mum just you know nothing for example I love that I'm already making a list of all the films and series that we've not had time to watch and I

cannot wait well the only thing with The Walking Dead was that at some point my husband after about four weeks he was like I think maybe you should change because Bo was starting to make these noises like and he was like this can't be good oh Kat I've loved chatting with you thank you so much and I'm gonna put the link for your book and where to find you for your socials as well but yeah I've loved love chatting I feel like we've covered a diverse range of topics thank you we have and listen congratulations I hope that you um I hope that it all goes really well for you and I do hope that you're not actually in labour now yeah me too I mean I don't think I think I am. They're pretty far apart if I am.

I'm hoping it's just some Braxton Hicks. Let's hope. But I will let you know, basically, if I don't come back to the podcast in a few weeks, you'll know that I've given birth. Thank you. Thank you. Oh, I absolutely love that chat with Kat.

I have to say, I just love hearing everyone's very individual and personal journeys into motherhood. So I hope she loved it as well. I actually want to share a voice note now that I received from Nicola, who is currently trying for a baby. And yeah, it's just a lovely message. So I'm going to play it. Hi, Ashley. My name is Nicola and I live in Leicester and I've been listening to your podcast now for about maybe a year and me and my husband have just started trying like we're in our very first month of trying for a baby and I don't think I would have got to this point if it hadn't been for your podcast. When we decided to start trying, we gave ourselves a bit more than

a year just to get used to the idea. And in typical man fashion, my husband has decided not to think about it until it happens. But obviously, all the changes happened to me and my body. So I have spent the last year doing lots of reading and listening. And when I came across your podcast, it's just changed everything for me. I think a year ago, I was so unprepared. I can't even explain how little I knew about having a baby. The things I've learned over the last year have amazed me. It's absolutely amazing what our bodies go through and how much we have to do to get ready to have a baby and then afterwards as well. I was scared of it to start with. And then I was more scared when I heard all about it. And then bit by bit, I've got to the point where

I can actually, you know, I can actually see this happening and me being okay with it, which is a huge change for me. And it's, you know, I'm actually feeling a little bit excited now. So I just wanted to share that with you really, just to say that you're doing such a good job of being so open and honest. And I know it's been hard for you sometimes. And you're sharing a lot and you're being really vulnerable with everybody. And I just wanted to say thank you for doing that, because I really don't think that I would have got to this point if I hadn't have heard all of your journey and all of your guests journeys through their pregnancies and post pregnancy as well. You know, bit by bit, I've been adding all of these people on Instagram, reading their blogs and

listen to their podcasts and things. And it's, it's just been such a wonderful educational journey. And, you know, like most of your podcasts say, it's not just about the good, it's every aspect of getting pregnant and learning about it and sharing everything, not just making out that it's all fine. And, you know, just making sure that people are aware of all the things that can happen is, you know, I really can't tell you just how grateful I am. And even with the some of the scarier bits that get shared, that's actually made me feel really prepared. If those things hadn't been shared, I don't think I would have necessarily felt like I was getting the full picture. And I think I'm sure you've said before that that's you know it's people keep it a secret and it's not helpful

um it's definitely helped me to get into a place where I feel ready and I you know especially um as well looking at your Instagram and the way that you express yourself about your body and how your body has changed and how much you love it. I just, I find that really, really helpful and empowering. So thank you so much. You keep, keep doing the really amazing work that you're doing. And I'll, I'll keep listening every single week. I'm sure I'm going to be listening at least two, three, four, five times more to each podcast as and when we're lucky enough to get our baby. So yeah, thank you, Ashley.

And yeah, keep it up. Oh, I loved that message from Nicola. It feels a bit like self-congratulatory to play that, but it's so nice. I feel like I've been on such a journey on this podcast and on my Instagram. So yeah, thank you for sharing and also good luck with your fertility journey. I love hearing that people are listening even, you know, when they're not mums yet, because it gives me hope, like you said, Nicola, that, you know, people are more prepared for potential challenges along the way. But mainly, I just wish you luck.

And please, please let me know if and when you get pregnant, because it's very exciting. And thanks to all of you guys, as always, for listening to Mums the Word, the parenting podcast. If you want to drop a message like Nicola did, you could do it on WhatsApp. So she left a voice message,

which is obviously free. You could do it anonymously. The number is 075 999 27537. Or you can drop an email at askmumsthewordpod at gmail.com. And if you listen on Apple, or you can drop an email at askmumsthewordpod at gmail.com and if you listen on apple then you can obviously leave an apple review there obviously five star ratings are very helpful and if any of the topics that i covered with cat sims today you find would be useful someone else feel free to share that's how new people find us i say us it's literally me and i'll

be back with another episode, same time, same place next week. Unless, of course, I am actually having contractions now, which hopefully I'm not. But I will speak to you soon. Own each step with Peloton. From their pop runs to walk and talks, you define what it means to be a runner. Whatever your level, embrace it. Journey starts when you say so. If you've got 5 minutes or 50,

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