Mum's The Word! The Parenting Podcast - The Ups and Downs of Surrogacy - with Ollie & Gareth Locke

Episode Date: December 11, 2023

What is the surrogacy process like and how do you go about it? How do you balance being the best parent alongside work and prioritising yourself? And why it's important to remember you're never in anything alone as parentsMade In Chelsea's Ollie & Gareth Locke join Georgia Jones on this week's episode to speak about their whole journey through the surrogacy process to becoming dad's to twins Cosima & Apollo.Do you have a question for us? Get in touch on our Whatsapp, that's 07599927537.---A Create Podcast Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Hello and welcome back to Mum's The Word, the parenting podcast. I'm Georgia Jones and I'm your host for this week. So this week I want everybody to do a big old cheers for me because I finally got to the end of my solo parenting stint. Danny, my husband, will be back from tour and I'm going to be handing the parenting duties over to him. I think I'm going to take myself off for like a retreat for a week. That's wishful thinking. Today's guests are Ollie and Gareth Locke. Ollie is a TV personality who is most well known for his time on Made in Chelsea and Celebrity Big Brother and Gareth was commercial director of tweed fashion brand Holland Cooper. They are a lovely husband and husband duo and together they

run a podcast called Newly Dads, so go give it a listen. Their struggle when it came to a surrogate birth was well documented on Made in Chelsea,, they have now become daddies to twins, thanks to surrogate mother, Rebecca Ward. Welcome to the podcast. So today's guests are Ollie and Gareth Locke. Welcome, boys. Thanks very much. Thanks very much for having us.

So Gareth and Ollie have two little babies, twins. Cosmo. Oh my God. Cosmo. I can't, what's wrong with me? Cosmo. Oh, my God. Cosme. What's wrong with me? Cosima. Do you know, I did this podcast the other day with Kelsey, who is one of the presenters, and I kept calling her Chelsea.

I understand. I've done that. I think it's just this level of exhaustion I'm at at the moment because, obviously, I'm solo parenting. That is mum's the word, though. That's about it, isn't it? Yeah. That's something that people don't talk about, but it's exhausting. Yeah's exhausting yeah being a parent is it's okay to be exhausted as well do

daddies get like brain fog like yeah it's due because obviously you know we've had the hormones so i didn't know whether it was like a hormone thing or whether it's just a exhaustion thing do you know what i felt really bad about saying this but like baby brain when you're in it and you get like sleep deprivation and everything of course you get that because you're just exhausted. Like there is being, when they were first born, we were feeding them every two hours. So you're waking up throughout the night. We've got twins, obviously,

both of us have to wake up because we're doing it at the same time. So the sleep deprivation, I think, you know, beyond obviously women when they go through pregnancy and give birth, like the hormones and everything, yeah, throws you out of whack. But just the general exhaustion of actually just having a newborn baby. So I think it's completely fair.

Obviously, we didn't get paternity or maternity or whatever like that because that's just not a part of our job. We're all freelancers. We all work for each other and ourselves. And the difficulty with that is that we were filming the day after we came back from NICU and we haven't stopped working since. So we haven't had any time whatsoever

to kind of actually just chill. And when you do chill, sounds awful, doesn't it? But you want a glass of wine. Oh God, yeah. And so you end up with a hangover and you're like, oh God, for fuck's sake, this isn't great. Well, I know it's a constant battle of, I want to try and enjoy myself

when I can have that glass of wine, but also I've got to parent. Also I've got to work and i'm knackered and it's just that constant like vicious circle isn't it there was a couple of days wasn't there when i was like i looked we looked at ourselves i think we were like i look disgusting i was like i haven't put any fake tan on my beard looks absurd my hair was disgusting it was all gray and i was like we need literally a day of just a bit of self-care because i look dreadful yeah do you know you don't realize how important those self-care days are when you become a parent like literally just

putting a bit of fake tan on and like oh shaving your well shaving your bits yeah i mean i think you have some bits i actually beat mine no well it's kind of you look you look at your partner or you look at yourself in the mirror and you think right i've just had kids but i do still have a partner so you've kind of got to be like i do still need to make an effort you it's kind of you look at your partner or you look at yourself in the mirror and you think, right, I've just had kids, but I do still have a partner. So you've kind of got to be like, I do still need to make an effort. It's such a big thing because basically like nothing will ever prepare you for your first child because basically your life is this. And then suddenly the baby's born and it's there and you have to be responsible. And then like the man comes in and then suddenly they're responsible. Like it's it's suddenly such a big change to like your schedule in life and nothing will pay for that because you're basically like

there's this other human that is you're completely responsible for oh absolutely and which makes no sense to me whatsoever because we're meant to be the most intelligent creatures on the planet and yet it takes us three years to to end up walking and talking i know the answer to this i knew you you do love research i do love i do Gary? I do love knowing a point. So basically, because of the way that we're formed, because of people's hips where they walk upright, they've got narrower, babies have to be born basically premature. If a human was to carry a baby to the extent where it could come out and walk like a normal animal, it would be two years gestation.

But you can't have that. So they're born with all the skull and different bits and whatever, and they take longer to develop. So the brain develops outside the body more than it develops inside the body for someone that's had a baby inside you what do you think about two years gestation i think i don't think i'd have a fanny left for a start and also i'd have extreme internal injuries i mean you'd be in real trouble i think how big was cooper when he was born anyway he was quite big he was nearly 8 pounds

well there you go so imagine 2 years do you not remember the fun fact of when Cooper came out I told you didn't I how he dived out oh yeah I've never said this on a podcast

oh my god but I know what you're going to say yeah but I don't mind saying it the world might quite like this fun fact do you remember it I know exactly so when Cooper came out

for anyone that doesn't know and I do like to tell people this because I find it quite funny when Cooper came out for anyone that doesn't know and i do like to tell people this because i find it quite funny when cooper came out you know how babies are born did uh cosimo and apollo have long nails when they longish yeah certainly and um cooper did have quite long nails and he came out and he hooked his finger onto my clitoris and tore it my favorite thing about this is one day I'm really excited to discuss with Cooper the fact that he once accidentally played his mum's clitoris.

It's just the most horrific of things. Oh, my God. No, please, please. Oh, no, I need to take this back now because one day he might listen to this podcast and, like... It's amazing. No, God, you should listen to our podcast. This is when Cooper's gonna be bullied

it's fine both parents are in the entertainment industry what's the expect like everything's gonna be a bit mental anyway

I know I did say that there's only a certain amount of time we're going to be able to do this there's only a certain amount of time Cooper is going to

agree to be in like photos with me and I'll have no choice mind you I did see that video the other day of Danny with him on stage on his shoulders and it you i did see that video the day of danny with him on stage on his shoulders and it's just the cutest thing in the world it does make you really go that's the cutest thing in the entire world ever i think jls then stole the idea and brought their

kids on i saw a couple days later totally copied yeah they're not as cool yeah it's not as cool it's not as rock and roll asking that question to other people about the tearing thing has is it a common thing or are you just a one-off no no it was quite quite unusual i think yeah they said it was a graze which what is what they call it when if you have like a little tear that needs stitches they call them grazes i was like this is not a graze it's not damaged it i was gonna say this is so you actually had to at that point they would have had to have sewn they stitched stitched my clitoris were they dissolvable stitches? Yes.

Okay, fine. That's what that's worth. From what I remember. I mean, it was a car crash down there. So I've no idea what went on. It's not now. Little do people realise, it does pretty much look as it was, but after quite a while, it swells, you know?

Yeah, yeah. These are the things you guys will never see. I bet it does. I guess I well you've seen you've seen Fanny's but I can tell yeah yeah

many many total of eight in real life oh I mean there might be what eight eight in real life

yeah that's a good number actually well not as high as his but there you go was that a little dick no I was just fucking beautiful

when I was young I think you've seen more and I wasn't no I was just I was impeccable you still are beautiful both No, I was just fucking beautiful when I was young. I think you seem more. And I wasn't. No, I was just, I was impeccable. You still are beautiful, both of you. I was saying this, they're looking fabulous at the moment. I don't know what your trick is, but I'd like some of it, please. Nannies.

I'm going to get a full face lift. Full time help. I've seen Botox. Yeah. You've had loads of Botox, haven't you? This is a couple of weeks ago I did, because I looked at myself and I was like, I at myself and i was like i look homeless i actually live under a bridge what's your thoughts on like aging i know this is a bit off topic but like do we disgracefully would you say there's two things to it one it's just general health and well-being so like hydration like collagen whatever just so

that you age slower i'm not one for like thinking i'm gonna get a facelift one day but i do like both you're not you thought i was no i don't know i don't think you need to i just mean i i would have thought you would have gone oh my god don't like honestly my jowls can't even let's not look at them because i know you you two are just going to look at them now for the rest of the podcast i'm i'm more about preservation yeah you know not like botox or like looking like like full-on kenny rogers sort of style i'm thinking like you know look look good as a man you've got to be slightly careful because if you go down that route too quickly too soon you can look really puffy and i think a lot of guys thought they lose their collagen then they puff up a bit and then you end up starting like zach off from

front photos yeah apparently he's broke his jaw no he, he came out like that. I just think that's works. Oh, it wasn't. No, it's all work done, yeah. But it's not very good work. They puffed him up and you can't look puffy. No, no, it was because he started filming again after that. So basically it now looks a lot better because it's a bit like Madonna before the tour she's just done. She just had a load of work done and then it was a facelift.

And basically now when she's on stage, she actually looks incredible. But it was a lot because she went back into the public eye too quickly. Not that that's a bad thing. Do what you want. But yes, I will be having work. And I will continue to do that. I had my first Botox ever at 24, I believe I was. And I remember it was that date almost.

And it's a quite morose way to remember this. But I remember getting a notification that Peaches Gilderford died as soon as that. So that's how long it was. But I was having my face injection while reading that and that was the first ever time I had it done and I was 24 years old and it was preventative at that point and actually

I don't think I look nearly 70 I think I look alright I don't look like I'm in my late 50s How old are you both by the way? I'm 37 in March Are you like I'm in my late 50s How old are you both by the way? I'm 37 in March Are you? I'm 34

You're 34? Oh baby Me and Gareth are back to birthday twins aren't we? We are birthday twins 6th of December That's so weird isn't it? What are we doing for our birthday? Oh I don't know

We should do something together At our management Christmas party Oh that's a 7 That's a 7 Yeah we'll be attending our management Christmas party. Oh, that's a seven. That's a seven. Yeah, we'll be attending our management Christmas party. Slightly hungover, probably. Probably, yeah. Right, going back to parenting.

Yes. This is what we're here to talk about. So obviously you guys are together. You are married. You are husband and husband. And because of that, there was no natural way to conceive. Yeah, we shagged so much. It just wasn't working nothing

nothing happened yeah eggs weren't being released like how did you even decide what route to go down because obviously there's so many different paths you can travel what conversation what was the conversation you had so i think basically it started i had always been open to the idea of having kids and i can't remember were we married at this time or engaged or engaged or engaged at the time and I we'd spent the afternoon with Binky and India and Ollie after that I think suddenly got his head around the idea of having kids and then having that in his life because he's always thought kids weren't really on the cards for him and for numerous reasons after seeing that and sort of different dynamic shift he then turned around to me I was like look I'm actually open to doing this and it was

I sort of parked the idea and it wasn't I was like if it doesn't happen it doesn't happen and then we sort of went down the route and then we sort of talked about the options adoption or going down the route of IVF and sort of being open to all of them but actually when you look at it things like adoption are so difficult we spoke to a few people that done it and they'd gone all the way to the end and been down this road for like two three years and then suddenly they've turned around they're like right the kid you thought you were getting you're no longer getting and then they start the process over again elton john famously went through it with two of the kids that he tried to adopt from um from africa and the press got hold of the fact

that they were adopting these two children and the mother turned around and said, no, I want to keep them then. And so, because of it's Elton John, so the woman kept after this whole process. Elton John has still looked after those kids forever and has put them through education and still close with them.

But he blames the press for not having his children. Yeah, I'm not surprised. He went through the surrogacy route at the end, but obviously he'd completely fallen in love with these children and spent a lot of time with them and then the press got hold of it and and then and it's such a process isn't it like you you have no idea when you hear about like people adopting children you just think it probably takes like a year max but it isn't the case oh and there's so much that goes into it and it's it's a it's a bloody long process one of our friends

said well why are you doing why are you doing IVF why didn't why didn't you adopt and I and this is my friend who's got two other biological children I was like well you've just had another kid why didn't you adopt inside because I can have kids normally and I'm like well I we can have kids now now I can have kids naturally and I was like well we can have kids naturally as well yeah yeah and it's kind of like you just don't sort of look at the entire picture I mean there's loads of ups and downs to everything you do but like so we started we did IVF and it took nearly four years it was hell so how did you find uh because Bex uh Rebecca but you call her Bex yeah Bex she was the lovely lady that carried the babies for you,

wasn't she? How did you even go about finding her? How does that process even begin? We were lucky. In Britain, it's not the easiest situation because the laws are quite archaic and they're quite difficult and they just need renewing, basically.

I've talked about it quite a lot. But we happened to be on Made in Chelsea talking about the fact that we were going to go through this journey and uh and she dm'd us did she and we had quite a few dms and we spoke to different people and it ended up that bex we we'd had a surrogate before which who had dm'd us as well but after a couple of failed attempts we were advised by a doctor to maybe uh just try someone else just in case it was a problem anyway luckily bex had messaged us and we spoke to her there's a lot of tests you have to go through a lot of psychology bits there's there's counseling counseling all sorts of stuff really yeah legally

yeah and um with her and her family basically as well like her partner she's got children hasn't she she does yeah you to be a surrogate in the uk legally you have to have had children so it basically you can understand what it is going to be even though even though it's not her egg and basically we put an embryo in her that nothing dna wise to do with that um oh okay you have to understand you know you're going to go through this process you have to have understood what it is to have a child and then we do all the counseling with her because you're going through this thing together like she she carried our child for the best part of seven months they'll promise you all but the best part of seven months you know that's a long time and it's there which

is with them the entire time so you have to understand the gravity of what it is you're going through it's not just her it's her family it's her her sons her her partner her everything that has to deal with everything when we're not there yeah with a very pregnant woman and lots of hormones going everywhere and the fact that she is not keeping the child at the end even though it's not biologically her that there's obviously a there is obviously a sentimentality when it comes to you carrying the baby and she has to be physically and mentally prepared that that baby will be given to someone else yeah of course that you've grown but we've i spoke to her this morning even. I speak to her a lot.

Yeah, I've met her actually, haven't I? You've met her, yeah, yeah. Lovely, yeah. She is lovely and she's coming down in a couple of weeks and we'll spend some time with her and it's important. And is she going to stay quite in the baby's lives then? Yeah, she'll be auntie Bex. Auntie Bex.

And her kids are like cousins to them, essentially. Oh, that's sweet. So it's really sweet. I love that. Well, you've got you remember they were all born in the same in the same they were grown in the same tummy yeah so when you say so the embryo the egg sorry did you what how did what how what happens i'm confused so can you explain so you go to an egg bank yeah um and you go and you go through profiles and whatever right so you you

kind of choose... You're not allowed to see their face. You can see the colour of their hair, whatever, their build, etc. But it's one of those things in the UK where there's this sort of fine line between them over-commercialising it and making it too accessible and a few sort of red flags for them. So one of the big things they don't allow you to do is see the face because they kind of just want to probably make it a bit more difficult and a bit more of a sort of choice to do.

But if you're a lesbian couple, you can see the sperm donor. Oh. No, you don't have to be lesbian. You can be anyone getting sperm. Yeah, I mean, for... So you can see the sperm donor, but you can't see their egg donor. Egg donor, correct, yeah. Which is complete inequality in sexism.

I was going to say, that's completely flawed, right? It's so flawed right so flawed completely flawed how do you know it's so interesting though because people that aren't going through this process have no idea about this it's not talked about as much because it is still and i tell you why it's not talked about is because it is so incredibly expensive and the nhs won't do it yeah if you were a a male gay couple in Britain going through this, you won't be able to sit in the NHS. You're not allowed to. Not allowed.

Because they say, well, you can make the embryos. We can do that for you. That's fine. But you're not allowed to use a surrogate, so there's nowhere to grow the embryo. Wow. And so you have to spend money. So if you're a low-income family in Britain

and you are married to a man and it is exciting and wonderful and you want a family, I'm afraid you're at the end of the road. Gay couples that go through this IVF thing, and bearing in mind it took us a while to do, so obviously your motivation is you want these kids so much. And you've got so much love in your life that you want to have children. And actually we met a couple, Rob and Seb, the other day who've got two wonderful sons, both eight years old, both twins, from IVF. the other day who've got two wonderful sons both eight years old both twins um from IVF and you meet the children of people who've gone through IVF and it's such a long process even if it's down to male female like infertility thing it is such a conscious process that is a lot of heartache on the way that when you get those kids you love them so much and you put so much into them that these kids are actually really exceptional like they're really interesting to talk to obviously their parents give them loads of time because they they love them so much and you put so much into them that these kids are actually really exceptional like they're really interesting to talk to obviously their parents give them loads

of time because they they love them so much and they've wanted them so much so for me even like there's this toss-up because obviously nhs like doing gay surrogacy is it you know is it it's gonna cost too much etc whatever however you've got these two parents that want kids so much and you're gonna give so much love to a kid how can you not allow something like that oh absolutely but it obviously you give so much to that kid but does that make it quite difficult when you are having a bad day or like you're just exhausted and you're like oh the baby's won't stop crying and this and that do you ever feel like that guilt of then complaining because you've put so much into it. I don't think anyone can.

I think all parents, like I said this the other day on our podcast, I was like, I look at them at four in the morning after I've not had any sleep and I just think, what have I done? Yeah, yeah. Oh my God, I went through that phase. You step out of it.

What have I done? But every parent gets there. Yeah. Like every parent, like regardless how, like anyone can, the fact you get like normal birth you're carrying a baby for nine months you can look at your baby and be like i hate you in

this moment right now however i do love you but like it's it's it's we're human it's natural you can't it's all sunshine and roses is it no of course it's not and it's so funny someone was talking to me the other day about like what we go through as parents it's actually not normal for us to go through that much kind of like stress and exhaustion and learning something new and keeping something alive. Like it's all brand new. We are doing it for the first time. We do not know what we're doing. And it's like so much on us. And we don't have a man.

I mean, there's books, but like, you know, every kid's different. Like, do you find like both? They completely different they're just completely different he's so basically any little discomfort he would absolutely hate changing his nappy if i put a wet wipe on his cheeks wipe some milk off whatever he would cry he's only just stopped doing that and now now he's smiley happy or whatever and like i'd bath him miserable for two seconds then stops crying looks at me it's like okay we'll deal with this and now he's actually just starting to become a bit more of a happy baby whereas she has been stoic as hell throughout the entire thing yeah do you know i noticed cosmo was like the chilled one absolutely when i was around at your guys she was um yeah she was

the one that just laid there she was just like yeah whatever she's chilled yeah so she had to fight so hard because she was born at two pound eleven she was tiny tiny yeah whatever she's chilled but also she had to fight so hard because she was born at two pound eleven she was tiny tiny tiny he told all the nutrients not all the nutrients he wanted her to come out

such a bloke she was not ready to come out she was she looked like an alien he was this little Zoolander prince he looked like a lip filler

did he oh my god stop he was like a stunning little baby and I love you Cosy so much and you're so pretty now but you were the ugliest thing I've ever seen. You look like a roast chicken in a bag.

It was just horrendous. But she's really pretty now. We were slightly concerned at the beginning because she had no fat on her. There was nothing. She was not ready to come out. She's like a little baby bird. He wants to join the party sooner. He was ready.

It's funny because it was World Premature the other day wasn't it and then there was so much stuff on social where you could see other people who had kids and it literally takes you back to it

and I was looking at the photos this morning in our bathroom which actually because they were the first photos we had of the kids so as soon as we got back from NICU

we had these framed up and I was looking and I got the little tube in the nose and stuff like that and I was like do we need to change these now and you sort of forget

how quickly they grow. Because now, like, Cosi's actually probably the prettier one now. Hello, my name is Mark Thompson, your guide aboard the Constellation Station podcast. Tune in every Monday for your weekly guide to all things going on in the skies above the UK that week. From meteor showers to comets and eclipses to supernova explosions, I will have it all. You can find us on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Acast or wherever

you get your podcasts from. But until then, let's hope for some clear skies. They'll keep changing though like it's mad how like Cooper's just had his new school photos done I was like it's literally

like he's been taken and just stretched because now he's got a neck whereas before there was no neck this poor little kid

he was just a head on his shoulders and now he's like turning into this gorgeous little like you've got quite giraffe-y neck have I?

I always feel like I've got no neck-y neck have I? I always feel like I've got no neck because whenever I put a pole-neck jumper on I feel like it instantly gives me a double chin I disagree I've just got a double chin

I think that's sort of it's a normal thing you've got a long neck I think you've got a long neck I think you've got quite an elegant neck yeah you've got a very very good neck

how can you you do have a long neck I don't think Danny's got a particularly big neck I'm trying to think he's got quite a wide neck maybe it's Danny Danny's got a short neck short neck do you ever think with necks? no because you think your's got a particularly big neck. I'm trying to think. He's got quite a wide neck. Maybe it's Danny. Danny's got a short neck.

Short neck. Do you ever think of necks? No. Because you think your son had a short neck. Do I? You think you've got a short neck. Oh my God, maybe I've got a complex. You're like a neckist.

I've got a complex with my neck. But the fact is, ever since I've known you, you've always picked bits like that of your own body or whatever like that. Do you think? Yes. Oh God. Which I think is quite funny. Well, yeah, and also extremely insecure.

Considering I was a model for a lot of my life. Well, you were almost Miss World, weren't you? I was Miss World. No, no, no. I was Miss England. Miss England. And you went into the Miss World competition. I did go to Miss World.

And what's our nickname for Georgia? Mess World. Mess World. Mess World. Because I'm a bit of a mess a lot of the time. I'll take it. I'll take it. I'm a cold person. I think that's really cute. I'm a cold person. Mess world. Because I'm a bit of a mess a lot of the time. I'll take it. I'll take it. I'm a cold person.

Mess world. Going back to the surrogacy and obviously the egg, how long were they in NICU for? Five weeks. Five weeks, yeah. That's a long time, isn't it? It is, yeah. Was it up north or was it?

It was three weeks up north, two weeks in London. Yeah, born in Durham and then we moved to Sunderland. Do you know, it all makes sense because I remember a while back I said to you, oh, I think it was you, Gareth, you put like a question box on Instagram and you were like, ask me anything. So I messaged and said, who's your favourite Northerner?

Oh, am I your favourite Northerner? And your answer wasn't quite what I wanted. I know. And then I realised a little bit later on that actually bex is northern so i was like okay fine okay she can maybe take the top title no problem yeah there's i mean we love her very much you're a close second you're a close second i do you remember that passage message off you yeah but you're like how do i answer this diplomatically i can't say she is there's a woman carrying my children and you're not here when you found out it was twins were you like oh shit or were you like brilliant do you know what

at the time i cried i was like and actually happy tears yeah 100 i because i we were away and ollie waited back at the chalet and i'd gone off on my own just to get my head like clear because we were away and Ollie waited back at the chalet and I'd gone off on my own just to get my head like clear because we were waiting yeah um to get these results it's six weeks scan and then I remember getting the call from Oles and he said yep there's there's a baby and I was like oh my god there's a heartbeat and I was like okay and then in my head I was like oh there's not two and I was a bit like oh maybe I didn't want to and I was like okay so just one it goes no it's twins and I literally was like my heart like flipped I was ecstatic it's oh, maybe I didn't want to. And I was like, okay, so just one. He goes, no, it's twins. And I literally was like, my heart like flipped. I was ecstatic.

It's funny when it gets taken away from you. You realise that you want it. It's like in Friends. That's a funny little game. That's a dangerous little game. Phoebe pretends that she wasn't pregnant. It was very exciting. And that is exciting because you know that you've waited for so long

and suddenly two come along, which is amazing. You don't quite understand the magnitude of what two babies at the same time is like yeah it's a lot two of everything as well what physically the amount of kids crap in our house oh honestly like i feel like every single person that is um expecting a child or children says the same thing no our house won't be full of all that bright plastic stuff and it's just going to be minimal and it'll still be clean and then and then you have the babies and then you're like oh oh okay it's impossible it's impossible like completely we are going to try and stick to wooden wooden toys that will not happen i honestly impossible right okay i'll see

you i'll see you in six months you're just gonna buy a plastic toy for our kid aren't you that's what's gonna happen i'm gonna buy a jumper room which is the noisiest most hideous but wonderful thing is that the thing that goes on you just put them in it and they just jump up and down it's a bright yellow it's it's every single color you could wish for is this baby bjorn or something no there is a brand that do a very nice neutral it's wooden and they're on dragon's den i guess i have seen it and it looks very good i've actually just followed them on instagram yeah but then yeah if they get two i would say three and your house is not full of hideously colored plastic shit i will eat my words.

I'll take you both for dinner. Well, good. And I'll buy you the most expensive thing on the menu. Done. Deal that. But you have to do it for me if you do have plastic stuff. Deal. Fine.

Okay, good. Right, done. Done. I actually, I bought my niece and nephew a toy from Harrods that they both chose and came back to the house with it. And one was this plastic thing that basically spat balls off in the air and Oliver went ballistic at me. I'm not surprised. Or if anyone buys any child an instrument,

you know that that person secretly hates you. Do you know I learned a trick to this the other day? What? Electric piano with headphones. Yes, very good. Cooper does have an electric guitar with headphones, but they prefer to hear it out loud and there's not much you can do about it. Is Coop's learning any instruments? Well, this is Danny's. an electric guitar with headphones, but they prefer to hear it out loud.

There's not much you can do about it. Is Coops learning any instruments? Well, this is Danny's... Has he got mum's instrumental ability? He's got my fine singing voice. That's all you need to know. Lucky Coops. Lucky Cooper. No, we didn't want to push him.

So I think what we've done is gone the opposite way and not push him in the slightest. So now he's not bothered, which has kind of backfired on Danny more than me. Fine. But I've said to Danny, this is your domain. If you want Cooper to learn an instrument, you need to sort out the lessons.

I don't know the first thing about music. Fine. You know, that's Danny's thing. Yeah, that's true. If you're listening to the podcast, darling, which I don't know I don't know the first thing about music fine you know that's Danny's thing so yeah that's true if you're listening to the podcast darling which I don't think he does then could you get Cooper

some lessons that'd be great I think that's a lovely idea now I wasn't particularly musical when it came to instruments I could sing you played the violin for like

a week do you know the audacity of this he learnt it for a week and then he went busking oh I was like how desperate were you I like your confidence not very not very good what did you make oh no pennies but yeah literally that was it was

at school i was busking it was for tempeh chips so i could ring my mother oh that is the fact that his mom wasn't giving him the money to begin with in order to have the call but you had to knock on the staff room door and say, excuse me, please, may I please have 10p so I could call mum? And they used to give you 10p and then put it on the bill. And then you used to go there and you just put the 10p in the thing and then call mum and you probably got about two minutes to speak to mum. It sounds a bit like prison.

It's a bit weird, isn't it? Boarding school, isn't it? Not far off. Boarding school for you. I mean, I was also, we're talking 25 years ago. 35 years ago. No, 25 years ago. 25, 35 years.

No, what? Longer than that. 29 years ago. Imagine how much it would cost to call your mum now. Well, it's free. It's free. It's free with the contracts now. Unlimited data.

I'll get you one call. Oh, my God, don't. We were talking about this before. We were talking about how we're going to be speaking to our kids and saying, we didn't have internet. I had internet. Oh. I didn't have internet.

Okay, you two. I'm younger than you both. That hurt. That actually hurt a bit. I dial up. I do. Yeah, we were talking about dial up. No phone.

Did you have a phone? I had. Always none. Right, okay. So I've had the same number since I was nine on contract. Wow. Can we just discuss the fact that I've said this a number since I was nine on contract. Wow. Can we just discuss the fact that I've said this a million times before, Gareth was a spoilt, spoilt.

No, I wasn't. I wasn't at all. Oh, my gosh. Are you going to send the kids to, do you reckon you'll send the kids to, like, It depends how exhausted we are. Yeah, it depends how well behaved they are. I quite like the idea of it from 13 because it taught me a lot, but weekly boarding

they come yeah i would not be able to see them and i would like to choose a school that didn't do saturday school if possible because i did saturday school all of my life and then on saturday afternoons i would then go to stagecoach wow and then sunday mornings i would go to church with mum have a roast dinner and go straight back to school so i never had a time to my own yeah that's not much time just to be like a child you know and just like do like digging in the dirt or something didn't have time for it didn't have time for it no time to dig in the dirt is there anything like did you feel kind of ready going in or do you reckon like we I think the biggest tool we had was those five weeks NICU because we learned from like experts like pediatric nurses like maternity nurses who were like teaching us how to change nappies like

an incubator and like showing us like you know you need x amount of milk 165 mils per kilo for a child over a day and you divide it down like it was that because actually we we hadn't done any of the nct classes because we were we thought we were going to be doing them for the six weeks leading up to the birth um and so we were sort of green on it and i'm so stubborn that basically i don't want anyone telling me what to do i like you will google it or i will just sagittarius in us i'm not such a sag which is why also we don't have any baby friends so we don't have a don't have a um we've got binky a group we've got binky but binky's the hardest person in the world to get hold of do you know what actually the other day we were with her and i was like you know when

like a friend of yours has a baby and you don't have a baby and suddenly they never see them again you get excluded yeah i don't want to be that person and then i was with binky the other day and i was like oh actually i'm becoming this person like i actually it's so convenient to have baby friends i guess it's because they understand because i remember like when my sister had babies and i didn't i remember thinking like how how can she not have a conversation for five minutes with me instead of running off with her kid or you know and i was quite selfish still at that point because i feel like you can't be quite as selfish when you have a kid can you like you've got to like give a bit more i must say there is one thing and i'll see if you agree to

this but i have we have used the kids as an excuse every now and again either because we're just a bit tired or we're like oh we can't do that kids aren't very well or something like we have we have don't give away secrets a handful of times we're talking to a lot of parents right now and i'm sure you've done the same thing where and actually do you know what it is it's i sort of just want to be at home my own company and stuff like that and i tell everyone i've been like so like if someone rings me i'll be like i can't talk to you right now the kids are are playing up. When actually, I just want to sit in a quiet room and cry. Yeah. I have the time, but I just don't want to.

I just want to be quiet. I want to be on my own for a minute and just rock in my corner. I want to just enjoy the silence of the humming of the washing machine in the laundry room. If somebody says they've not used their kid to get out of something, then they are lying. The only problem is when they get older and understand that you're not meant to lie so i've been called out from cooper before because yeah because because i've said to somebody oh no i'm really sorry we can't come to that because um whatever and cooper's gone no we're not mummy and i'm like and then i and then we got home and he was like mummy you're not meant to lie

that's really naughty and i'm like, I might not be getting any presents from Father Christmas then. Like, and they start calling you out. Coopers can, like, read a bit now as well. So, like, there's this whole lie that you tell when the kids get a bit older of, oh, we can't go to that park because it's closed. It says it's closed.

But they don't know. They can't tell whether it says closed on the park. Now he's reading. Now he can read. It says open till six o'clock. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. And you can't lie to them anymore. You can't tell whether it says closed on the park now he's reading now he can read open till six o'clock yeah yeah no yeah yeah but and you can't lie to them anymore you can't tell them these things i feel a bit bad for keeper how much it's not taking to the park mommy can we go to the park no it's my coffee we're going home yeah no we're not we're not going to the park i hate

parks though because you can't relax can i tell you my problem I've got a couple of things about being a father that is really bumming me out in the future. Yeah, go on. Aeroplane loos is one thing. What, trying to change a nappy in there? I haven't even thought about that, but the thing does flip down. Yeah, it does, but I mean, you've probably got about a millimetre of breathing space.

It is. I think aeroplane loos are the most revolting thing. I'm the one that spends quite a lot of time in an aeroplane loo, purely because I won't touch anything full stop. Oh, so you're like sanitizing before you even... I don't even sanitize. I just don't touch.

I literally, I will do everything I possibly can. My foot, open everything, lock everything. I mean, all the tissue rolls get whatever like that. The idea of putting my daughter on that loo to go for a wee makes me want to cry. Like it's so filthy and everyone pisses all over them if you've got turbulence piss everywhere it's revolting and always someone's always done a skiddy i mean and always you end up having to wee off the i would say a service station is worse disabled loo no always not yet that because every everyone even though they shouldn't

goes to disabled blues parent parking though is like the best oh I can imagine that yeah baby in baby in baby parking I'm like what's the age

cut of it no one places them anyway and then also have you not right okay this is me being a bit more impetuous when you're younger however like you go

and you're like no I'm picking a kid up yeah yeah yeah I've just dropped them off oh I have a kid I've just dropped them off at school yeah well I do actually police them I am that person you'll be karen like yeah i kind of love that

you know what i am a little bit i have been told off so many times for being that person because i hate injustice and you know when they see something i'm like how dare they i'm gonna go and say something i'm gonna be that embarrassing moment who's gonna be like oh my god mom just leave it please my dad was exactly the same I remember we used to chase people around in the car if ever we saw a kid doing something wrong. And I would just have to sink into my seat and be like, Dad, they're from my school, please stop. My dad was entirely the opposite.

For starters, Dad taught us when we saw a pretty woman walking in the street, we'd have to shout crumpet out the window. No, stop it. So misogynisticistic we had to do that now wouldn't you gay quite so like crumpet then Mark Spencer's car park

in Hedgen stop it or he goes like the disabled we'd go in a disabled badge parking lot and

a dad would be like limp you have to no and so we would have to limp to pretend that no one's going to stop a disabled child. Your dad does have a disabled badge. He does now.

He's nearly 80. Can we just talk about the fact that your father just used to ensue a car chase when he saw a kid doing something wrong? A car chase. Full blown. That's so bad. He saw kids setting fire to a bottle bin. Right. And we chased them.

We chased them. He phoned the police. We chased them. There was this one time where a cyclist flipped my dad off. Dad was in the car. And he sped past the cyclist, stopped in the middle of the road, got out of the car and just waited for the cyclist to catch up to him, grabbed hold of his handlebars and just wouldn't let this guy go.

He was like, what did you say to me? And made this guy apologise. Your dad sounds really scary. Your dad's terrifying. Do you know if you meet him? He's not, actually. He's a lovely man. He gets all his anger out on just random people.

He doesn't like injustice and I am the same. Yeah, but you can't just go vigilante. Yes. See, this is what I've been told off for because it's like safety first and I don't always think about safety first. Well, we're now going to see your father in a kind of argument with just oil just stuff oil in the next couple of weeks it'll go

everywhere it will yeah amazing for anybody that knows my dad they'll totally relate to this um guys we're nearly at the end of the podcast thank you for coming on just before you go if there's any like advice to anybody out there that might be going through like the surrogacy journey same as you guys like is there anything you'd like suggest them to help them on the journey i must say my top bit of advice for that would be one if you know anyone else who's gone through it personally just speak to them because there's so much gray areas out there for like the actual knowledge that's available through companies it's very expensive very difficult to actually garner what's relevant and then also like communities like on facebook groups or things like

that and just talk to people who have actually done it don't get don't i would not necessarily initially go to a company first for the information i'm sorry because it's expensive and also a bit misleading america is probably the easiest place to do it um but it's also the most expensive place to do it there isn't in between, which I would say Cyprus, where you can get more of a package deal in Cyprus. A bit cheaper for people. And it is better. And that's the northern side.

That's the Turkish side. Right. Weirdly, the southern side, which is the Greek side, doesn't let you. Oh. But the Turkish side does, which is just a bit confusing for every European thing. It's a minefield, isn't it?

Bonkers, but yes, that is. It is a minefield. But I just think if you like and and so many people who've gone through it like we we speak to people on social media and stuff like that and a few people reached out that we've helped and it's it's because people have been through it and it's been hard i think people who've done that are only more willing to impart their knowledge onto other people so 100 just ask other people and also you can if you want to be a surrogate it is presently illegal to you can if you want to be a surrogate

it is presently illegal to solicit or to advertise to be a surrogate in britain so talk to people in that area there are agencies you can go to and stuff like if you want to be a surrogate and you can do it legally up to 52 years old oh wow as long as you're still menstruating then you can be a surrogate basically so there's a lot of people that because obviously remember it's not your eggs yeah of course and so basically as long as the system is still working there

then you can be a surrogate as long as your little oven is still cooking absolutely right yeah well thank you boys it's been so lovely

having you we loved you I love having my friends on it's really nice it's been fun to chat this is a nice way to wake up isn't it

there's not many people in the world that we would come this far this early for oh my gosh i've not even said i can't believe i've forgotten your podcast oh yes yes well no that's what i was about to say we're actually going after this to go and do an episode of our podcast just tell me really quickly about your podcast so we have a podcast called newly dads which is with jamie

lang's company which is kind of the newlyweds and all that kind of stuff, a group umbrella. We've got newly dads. And basically it's for those 4am feeds when you're really tired and you want a laugh. Sometimes it's terribly difficult and we go through everything and we talk about everything. We've had loads of wonderful people on. We've got Lawrence Louis-Auburn later on talking about nurseries and all that kind of stuff.

But we've got some really funny stuff. It's basically our experiences, but all the ridiculous stuff and stories from the past, etc. I think everyone will find it relevant because basically it's when you're a new parent and how your life changes and it's the dynamic between us

and it's what it is to be a new parent and how your life was and how it is now and how you still keep a bit of what your life was and how you do the best for your children and all of that. Also, I break all the rules when it goes to it. I always open a bottle of wine. I love a rule breaker.

That's why I love you, Ollie. It's true. I open wine. Generally, we're recording it. We'll record at two o'clock on a Tuesday. I'm so sorry. I only offered you water. No, that's fine.

It's a bit early right now. 11.30. We've got drinks from Nicole Scherzer in five hours. I would start name dropping. There it goes. Literally. That's one of the things we have to sweep up off the floor After our podcast is Ollie's name dropping That's just true

But I think it's basically our therapy isn't it for the week We go to the studio and we have three hours And we do that and it's just wonderful Just to sit there and have a chat Like this has been wonderful just to have a chat like this Because we're all parents and it's kind of like It's therapy And it's lovely to hear it from two dads perspectives as well which there isn't much of

that around not hugely so well done well done for jumping on that thanks very much what a usp anyway boys thank you so much for coming on thanks for listening to mum's The Word, the parenting podcast. Make sure to hit the subscribe or follow button so you never miss an episode. We'll be back with another episode, same time, same place, next week. Own each step with Peloton. From their pop runs to walk and talks, you define what it means to be a runner. Whatever your level, embrace it.

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