Mum's The Word! The Parenting Podcast - Why Don't Mum's Jump? And what is a Prolapse? with Helen Ledwick

Episode Date: October 1, 2023

Why is prolapse so taboo? And what actually is it?Journalist and author of 'Why Mum's Don't Jump', Helen Ledwick joins us this week to inform us of her experience with prolapse, what some of the symptoms are of a poor pelvic floor and how we can be supported more in postpartum. So many people go through prolapse - and if you are feeling alone in this - know that YOU ARE NOT ALONE!Grab the book at  https://whymumsdontjump.com/ and follow Helen on Instagram @whymumsdontjumpSend us your experiences over at [e-mail] or contact our whatsapp on 07599927537.---A Create Podcast Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Hello and welcome back to Mum's The Word, the parenting podcast. I'm Grace Victory and I'm your host for this week. So this week for me, I'm during my period, so I have less patience, I'm just feeling a bit more chaotic and my brain just doesn't seem to work at like optimal level um and this week I just feel like I've been tested parenting wise lack of sleep we've had food refusal food over the floor um and just there's been a constant mummy and toddler battle. And I find that quite difficult. But I know that, you know, parenting, you ebb and you flow. And I'm hoping for a better week next week.

This episode is focusing on the importance of our pelvic floor, which I'm very excited about because I definitely have some pelvic floor issues. My lower back is a bit painful. I can't hold my urine for as long as I used to. And generally, I just feel like I need to see someone about my pelvic area since having two under two, which is crazy. This week we have producer, author and founder of Why Mums Don't Jump, Helen Ledwick joining us. She founded Why Mums Don't Jump after having a pelvic organ prolapse after her first birth. This is where organs within the pelvis slip down from their normal position and into the vagina, causing a heavy, bulging or dragging sensation. Although not life-threatening, prolapse can cause pain, sexual dysfunction and incontinence.

It's particularly common in mothers because pregnancy and birth weaken the pelvic floor muscles and so many people go through this but it is rarely spoken about. In fact, new figures suggest that six out of ten women are living with at least one symptom of poor pelvic floor health but 69% of these have never mentioned this to a healthcare professional. Helen has created an incredible community with the aim of ending the taboo around pelvic floor problems, especially after childbirth. Welcome to the show, Helen. Thank you very much. Lovely to be here.

So why don't mums jump? Wow, that's a big question. So I guess, yeah, so why mums don't jump is the name that I chose when I started talking on Instagram five years ago today in fact anonymously about this thing that had happened to me that I was really really embarrassed about which was my prolapse yeah and uh it was a name that just seemed to tap in to this thing that I was aware of, but I didn't really understand, which was why mums were, you know, didn't want to go on the trampolines, didn't really want to go crazy in the park, you know, and just kind of there was discussions around little bits of leaking when you laugh or things are not quite the same down there. But I just honestly like I had no idea. little bits of leaking when you laugh um or things are not quite the same down there but i just honestly like i had no idea um so yeah the why mums don't jump just seemed to kind of tap into that let's let's tap let's like drill into this a little bit more and find out what is going on

and why did you start your page anonymously so like my whole thing with this is um it's such a taboo subject right so i um i if i wind it back a little bit so i have this thing called pelvic organ prolapse which i i mean i don't know how much you know about that but i certainly had right i had never heard of it until it happened to me two weeks after my second child was born right so by the way I'm a mom I think I've kind of got the hang of this and no idea what this is and um so to explain like your pelvic floor is like this um and by the way I'm not a doctor or a medic of any sort I'm a mom and I'm a journalist so just put that little disclaimer in there but yeah um your pelvic floor is like this collection of muscles and tissues

that form a sort of hammock across the base of your pelvis. Yeah. And they do loads of really amazing and important jobs like keeping you continent and supporting your spine. And they also help to support your internal organs, your pelvic organs, so your bladder, your bowel, your uterus. And if the pelvic floor muscles uh go wrong or get damaged often during child during pregnancy when there's a lot of extra weight on there or

during childbirth when there's a lot of pressure and often damage so i i had a third degree tear when my son was born um they can weaken and your pelvic organs can sort of shift out of place so that is i mean it sounds kind of horrific and terrifying and that that is what happened to me yeah it's what happens to loads and loads of women but we never talk about it so often you find that people with prolapse think they're the only person in the world right does it and i certainly did and I guess like just anything that I mean I don't know about you but like I I'm not someone who was like comfortable talking about my vagina or my intimate parts like it's just not something I was ever comfortable

doing. Because you went to a Catholic school? Yeah. I don't know. I went to school in the 90s, like I'm just turned 45. I don't know if it's women of my generation or just me as an individual or yeah, partly being brought up in this Catholic community in Lancashire in the 90s. Like it just was not something you ever discussed. I mean, I literally didn't even know the difference between a vagina and a vulva until I started talking about all of this a few years ago. So like, yeah, and even when I started the Instagram page and then when that developed into a podcast, even when I recorded that first episode, I couldn't even say these words without going red in the face like so yeah so that's why I started it anonymously and um I just I didn't I found it really shameful and embarrassing and I didn't want people who knew me to know about that and I didn't want to kind of become the face of prolapse or just be reduced

to that you know what were your symptoms definitely, I, since having my second, I had two under two, I definitely can't hold my wee in for as long as I used to. I get up in the night and I need to go. I need to go then and I have to run to the toilet. And I'm definitely having lower back pain I'm seeing an osteopath actually and she recommended like pelvic floor exercises but what were your symptoms if you don't mind me asking yeah no not at all like these days I am an open book so

go right ahead um and yeah and I'm gonna come back because because I would say you need to pelvic health physiotherapist they are angels angels. They are all about this stuff. I had never heard of them. We'll come back to that. But so, yeah, symptoms for me, it was really obvious in my case in many ways because literally two weeks after my son was born and I'd had, as I said, like a third degree tear,

so I was in pretty bad shape. I couldn't sit down without a cushion anyway. But on this particular day, I literally stood up from the sofa and I suddenly felt like a bulge in my vagina, like I was losing a tampon, you know, like something was there that shouldn't be. Yeah. And then obviously like had this kind of, what is that moment? Ran upstairs, didn't run, obviously, did not run, hobbled upstairs, is that moment ran upstairs didn't run obviously did not run hobbled upstairs um got a mirror out to have a look and and this is part of the issue right because honestly I think that's the first time I've ever actually looked at myself like that um and just and started google imaging because because I was like what what is this thing that I can see this is not right I just had a massive

panic and um almost called an ambulance because I kind of hit on this idea that it was it was this thing called this prolapse um and then you start reading that kind of oh your insides are falling out then I'm like this is a medical emergency um but I didn't and it wasn't the feeling of that bulge for me has been my main symptom throughout um so it's just like a it's a discomfort but for for many women it does come alongside um sometimes some pain but often incontinence um so leaks um stress incontinence sometimes when you laugh or sneeze or run or jump or other kinds of incontinence, like when you can't make it to the bathroom in time or key in the lock. A lot of these things are associated with each other.

How long did it take to kind of gather a community? Because obviously you're not alone in this. Yeah. When did you first realise that, oh, okay, there's a lot of people going through what I'm going through? I mean, just immediately the kinds of messages that were coming through. And so my background is I used to be a BBC radio producer. So you sort of know when you really hit on something because the messages that come through are so heartfelt.

And, you know, you know that you've really resonated because people start sharing their own stories. So basically as soon as people started sharing their own stories and just like saying, oh, thank you for talking about this because I've never heard anyone talk about it. And I thought I was the only one in the world. And it's really reassuring to know that I'm not. And I'm actually so embarrassed about it. I don't even want to talk to my friends or even my partner about it but thank you for saying it and I guess the more and more this happened the more you realize that you know we're all sort of there online hiding away because we're so embarrassed by this thing that has happened because nothing that we you know not nothing like not our fault at all yeah um and then I just felt like this was a community that needed to come together

and have more of a voice. And yeah, we could say these things out loud and the sky is not going to fall down and it doesn't make us a bad person. So it just kind of went from there. Yeah. I've been thinking for a while about how my body's changed since having children. I wanted to talk about it on social media because I think my vagina looks different. Like it's changed. Like it just my vulva has changed shape.

And I haven't told anyone, but none of my friends. I don't know why I don't feel embarrassed by it but it's like oh maybe there is this like shame around like the less aesthetic parts of motherhood like okay yeah you know like the bleeding the c-section scar all of these things but actually there's like a lot of like other things that happen you know absolutely I mean you know you sort of go into it thinking saggy boobs stretch marks yeah probably gonna happen and you know that's just your sort of mark of being a mom and that's all right but like some of this some of these other things they are they are life-changing so like and and that is that is huge you know and that can really affect your

sense of who you are and it's hard enough becoming a mom anyway and you're already grieving for this person that once was but you you're hoping that you'll get back to it but sometimes it can feel like your body has changed like so fundamentally that there is no way back. And then that can have such a knock-on effect to who you are and how you live your life. I think one of the things that I found incredibly difficult, you know, a few years ago when this was all going on was that the advice at the time for women with pelvic floor problems is often don't run, don't jump, don't lift heavy, And you end up living

this really small and fearful life where you don't want to lift your kids anymore. And you find yourself in the park, just kind of on the sidelines, maybe asking the dad to, you know, lift them up the slide. You know, you're just not the active person that you were before. Yeah. And it's quite sad oh that was the hardest part for me you know because I didn't want to dance around the kitchen with my kids I didn't want to chase them down the road on their scooters I didn't and I would find myself saying to them oh mummy can't do that oh no this makes me a bit emotional when I think about it mummy can't do that mommy's not strong and like to be you know to be with your children and saying like mommy's not strong that's just not

an example that you want to set to them and my and you know I always say my symptoms on the scale of things are really not that bad many women have much worse physical symptoms um and obviously then yeah there's all that kind of emotional and mental health issues that follow from that. But the really important thing that I've learned, and only through opening up about this, is that like, there is so much you can do. Often we think, well, you've had a baby. That's just, that's just how it is now. You know, you're always going to, your toileting is always going to be different, or you're always going to feel different down there. And they're actually, you know, if we always going to, your toileting is always going to be different or you're always going to feel different down there. And they're actually, you know, if we understand what's happening to our bodies and we know that, you know, thereotherapist and start thinking about your vagina and your pelvic floor as something to rehabilitate

just like you would if you like dislocated your shoulder or broke a bone in your ankle it makes me think about postpartum in general which is so I cannot explain how hard I have found postpartum and like you prepare a lot for birth but you don't really prepare for the after there's not a lot of what I think anyway not a lot of information that's kind of readily available you can go and actively search for it but if it's your first baby you don't know to do that and and that's the thing like we struggle we we oh you know you know you've just had a baby that's kind of you know accept it like that's that's right now no like why do we have to just always just get on with things? Yeah. Oh gosh. Yeah. And, and I feel like maybe that is getting a little bit better, like because of conversations like this and because of social media, but yeah, certainly,

I think it's probably true for most women having the point, the point of having a baby is the point at which all of the advice and the information in the sport just kind of falls away, you know? And, you know, we talk, we have this six week check, don't we, with the GP, but I'm yet to find a woman who's just like, yeah, that was amazing. I feel like I am thoroughly rehabbed after that seven minutes of being asked whether I'm on birth control or not. It's not enough. The six week check that I had, I yeah it wasn't even really for me yes and that is something that has changed in the last couple of years so i think i'm right in saying

that technically there's supposed to be two checks now one for the mum and one for the baby um which you know is a good step in the right direction i'm not sure it always pans out like that i think often it's sort of rolled into one. Loose Lips, the podcast where we give our expert, not so expert advice. Join us as we figure life out one episode at a time. Yeah, you don't want the break dancing in the middle of Wetherspoons, do you really? A tanned ankle, no socks, boat shoes. So they have like a partially tanned foot. So you got through it yeah well i

mean well we're not together now oh well yeah there is that gotta say i'm furious high five yourself boom another life saved you know find us wherever you got this podcast just search listleps for weekly topics and some seriously juicy listener dilemmas so a lot of what i do i mean i talk about my own prolapse and i sort of broaden that out to people who have um you know urinary incontinence and also fecal incontinence um and also like pelvic pain and various issues that can happen relating to your pelvic floor especially after childbirth and um you know you talked about how difficult it is to find support in postpartum well i you know my background's in journalism and i could not find the information or the support that i needed to

understand what any of this meant or how to manage it and i think that's actually really dangerous because that's when you end up in these online groups and forums where everyone's just sharing their absolute lowest moments, handing out advice, and we're all strangers. And really, what we need is just access to really clear, simple, evidenced information and support and signposting of if you have problems, this is where you go for help um and I and I get and I do think like things are changing and we are able to have these conversations and you know I mean I mean had you ever heard of a pelvic health physiotherapist because I hadn't until this happened I think no I have okay and I've been aware of the importance of pelvic floor and how it's something we need to nurture.

But I just, with me, it's like there's so much going on in my life that it's the last thing I'm thinking about. Even though I've got back pain, I've got a little niggle in my hip, I'm having an MRI, like there's all these things going on that I know is because of childbirth. And yet I just, the motivation constantly to like fix myself since having a baby, having two babies even, it's just, I'm overwhelmed. round absolutely and you put yourself to the bottom of the to-do list because there are a million other things that you need to do first and then and honestly like perfect four exercises in fact I just did a post on Instagram yesterday because I'm really honest I didn't do them for two months um but I really really noticed you know so uh I'll be really honest like up to this point um like little bits of leaking and things has not been an issue for me i stopped doing my pelvic floor exercises for two months

i went on a run the other day there was a bit of leakage is it a lifelong thing that you have to be on your pelvic floor health like forever it is it is it is and um and you know the talk around it now is very much like not even you know this is not something we need to learn when we're pregnant and having babies this is something we need to be talking to our kids about from day one really um and i think the current advice is that um all girls from the age of 12 should be taught how to do pelvic floor exercises. And I think, actually, so again, I'm not a medical expert, but I do know that one of the really important things about pelvic floor exercises and where a lot of people go wrong is that you need to focus as much on the relax as you do on the squeeze. I know whenever you talk about it, you can't help but do it can you um but i think sometimes people overdo the squeezing and then what can happen is that you can develop an overly tight pelvic floor which can also cause

incontinence and can cause pain so which is why i'm always like just if you've got any like any doubts at all and it's within you know go to your gp ask to see a pelvic floor physiotherapist or you can see them privately obviously there's a cost attached to that but even just one visit to get an assessment and to understand where you're at is is worth its weight in gold and maybe a bit of accountability to persuade you then to to do the pelvic floor exercises but like i said it is it is for life and it is really hard i don't know if someone's struggling with pelvic floor what like what is the steps like what advice do you have for them because i feel like it's a bit of a minefield. It is. And I think the other thing now,

sometimes with the internet, is there's so much information out there. It can just feel really overwhelming. So I remember that was one of the things, you know, I was Googling, what exercise can I do with prolapse? And you'll find list after list of exercises to not do, band exercises, band exercises.

And again, that's really not the right message that we should be giving to women. It is, let's have a look at where you're at. Let's try to nurture you, encourage you, give you the right exercises to do to gradually bring you back to where you want to be. And so, yeah, my advice is, you know, your own body, you do, even if you're not like, even if you're not looking at it every five minutes, you do know when there's something not quite right. And, um, please do go to your GP and please do ask to see a pelvic health physiotherapist, because for me, that is like the absolute, um, sort of gold standard of starting your

journey to recovery. Um, it's really difficult though. Waiting lists are really long. And part of the problem as well is that a lot of medical professionals, sadly, aren't really trained in this area of health. And again, that is starting to change. But it may well be that you find

having Googled your own symptoms and understanding a bit more about it, that you actually know more than the medical professional. and that's a really difficult position to be in because then you've got to really try and really advocate to get some help so tiresome and i feel like whenever there's a mass issue and it's like women are kind of at the forefront of it there's never enough research never never enough training, never enough understanding. And it's just, it sucks to be a woman or it sucks to have a vagina sometimes. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. And I used to be like, I used to think of it like, well, you know,

there's only so much money to go around and, um, you know, it's not, it's not life threat. You know, this stuff is not life threatening as such people aren't dying from it. So, you know, it's not, it's not life threat. You know, this stuff is not life threatening as such. People aren't dying from it. So, you know, but actually now I just think it's really simply about priorities. And this is an area of health along with, you know, menopause, we talk a lot more about that, about menstruation, about fertility and all of these issues. Like it has such a fundamental effect, not just on the woman, but on the children and on the partners and on the whole of society. I know women who have given up jobs because of symptoms relating to pelvic floor stuff. It is crazy that we are not doing

what actually is very cheap, effective, simple advice, support, guidance to help women to help themselves. So I absolutely passionately believe all of that. But I still think there's a lot of work to do around the taboo that stops people talking about it in the first place. And maybe even makes them too embarrassed to even want to take that step to go to the gp because maybe they don't even know the right words for their own vulva vagina you know so there's just so much work to do around all of these issues but um but i think it's changing yeah but i think also as well it's like oh am I going to be taking seriously because I often feel things and like there's something going on like you know I went to my GPS and I've got this niggle in my hip it's

not all the time it's not every day but it's since I um have been walking more and more active after my second and there's something just not quite right. And they're looking at me like, yeah. And I just feel like this is a serious problem in my life. And I don't know how to get the help I need because I'm not like dying or it's not like a life-threatening thing. It's not like I'm bleeding. It's like a massive, know massive thing so yeah there's a lot of work to be done I think just in general with around like these kind of issues menstruation infertility like you said so I thought I just love talking to you hey it's nice I could go on forever about all of this stuff it's amazing and and I think one of the one of

the things that's happened since I started like like I said, five years ago, that one post on Instagram, then it grew into the podcast and grew into the book. And the thing that women always say to me, and honestly, like you can imagine, I get the emails and messages from women around the world. Absolutely heartfelt because they've often never told anyone about what they've been through since having a baby, sometimes 20, 30, 40 years ago. what they've been through since having a baby, sometimes 20, 30, 40 years ago, right? And what they always say is that sharing these stories and hearing other women talk about it has given them hope and it has helped them to feel less alone. And I never realized how powerful that can be just to kind of hear someone else voice your own deepest darkest feelings and emotions and to know that it's okay like once you can get past that um emotional and embarrassed and sort of shameful feeling about you know because and a lot of guilt sometimes as well like what

did i do to make this happen why did I not do more pelvic floor exercises? Why did I not opt for a C-section? Why did I not do X, Y, and Z? You know, once you hear other people talking about it, then that kind of shifts. And then we can just start to look at this as another physical issue that we need to either fix if we can or to maintain as best we can and rehabilitate as best

we can um so yeah the sharing of those stories has been so powerful um and and the community is amazing so like people will just write a little bit like how can i help like i'm so passionate about this you know you've really helped me to feel better about myself how can i help and through that like one of my listeners designed all my branding for me one of my listeners was a literary agent she's the one who asked me to write the book um one of my listeners is uh an animation lecturer at university in falmouth she got her um students to to create this absolutely beautiful animation using clips from the podcast. It's beautiful. And then the other day I was like,

I really want to make the podcast more like accessible. So is anyone able to help me transcribe some episodes? I've had all these volunteers. So like one by one, we're kind of putting the written transcription of each episode up on the website. And it's just like, it's such a cool community who want to

just give back and help and start to shout from the rooftops that you know this is this is stuff that happens and we need to talk about it i mean isn't it women they come together it's just magic when i first started on instagram a woman in australia sent me a message and she was just like um i have a friend in manchester who a message and she was just like, I have a friend in Manchester who has a prolapse. Maybe you guys could get together and have a coffee or something. So I was like, okay, well, sure. Why not? So I went for a coffee with this woman who brought another friend who also has a prolapse. And we ended up in this coffee shop, just discussing our vaginas while our toddlers were playing in the like little kitchen in the corner and once you've kind of opened a conversation

with someone talking about your gynecological issues there's nothing you can't talk about after that so it's just like instant friendship the walls are down and you're and you're away you know but you're right there's something so magical magical in a group of women just coming together and I suppose campaigning just to make things better because we just want it to be different for our kids, right? So you mentioned earlier

that you have a book. I do. Tell us all about it. Let us know how we can get hold of it. Yeah, so I have a book it's called it's here oh and here and um it's called why mums don't jump ending the pelvic floor taboo and um it's built um it's based on the podcast so some of the stories of the brave and brilliant women who very kindly shared their own pelvic floor stories on the podcast

along with some of the expert voices who also appear kind of just helping us to navigate this crazy journey that is pelvic floor issues and hopefully it's a little bit funny sometimes I've been told there might be the odd tear hopefully it will give you some good information just about like you know where to go next with your issues and again just to know that you're not alone um and you can get this book at any any good bookshop i believe or uh on the internet or via my website which is whymomsdontjump.com um just give it a google um that would be lovely so we also have a um message from a listener from bonnie on email hi ladies loving the podcast i listen every week

but i'm driving back from the school run i know you're always asking for birth stories and i know it's not exactly that but I wanted to share my experience. A few months back I had a pelvic floor repair. I've had incontinence ever since the delivery of my eldest around 12 years ago. I managed to control most of my symptoms which I didn't even realise were related to pelvic floor until I had a prolapse of my bowel through my vaginal wall. I had surgery and now things are a lot better, but it wouldn't have worked without the pelvic floor exercises alongside this. I just wanted to drop a message to anyone who is suffering any issues to see their GP! I can't believe how little is known about this. If it wasn't for my best friend going through

a similar thing I wouldn't have had a clue what was happening to me sending all my love Bon Bonnie is so right like that's amazing and I love that she's taking the time to write that in um and I hate that it took 12 years for her to get that help you know and I and i wonder if 11 years ago she'd been able to get the help and support and understand that it was her pelvic floor and maybe get some rehabilitation like where would she be now you know because the sooner we get to tackle these things and also it would have saved her 11 years of suffering and and potentially surgery as well so um yeah, she's absolutely right. And that's the thing, unless we talk about it with our mates

or we hear it somewhere, you don't hear it. And we should, we should just know about this stuff. You know, we just, it should be part and parcel of our education because it is so important and it affects, like I said before,

like so many aspects of our lives. Yeah, you're quite a calm person, but it's just been very nice talking to you. Oh, that's lovely. Thank you. And everyone needs to buy your book because we need to learn about this stuff, especially teenagers.

Like I think starting your period, just learn about pelvic floor. Absolutely. Yeah. And even before you get to teenagers, like, so I'm one of those people who, I mean, I love a good euphemism, right? Who doesn't, who doesn't like, you know, and like I said before, I really struggled to use the correct anatomical words for gynecological areas because I didn't know what they were and I was really embarrassed about it. Yeah.

psychological areas because I didn't know what they were and I was really embarrassed about it. Yeah. And in fact, when my kids were first born, somehow I managed to not use any words at all. But what I realize now is like, that's really unhelpful because you're basically reinforcing the ideas that our vaginas, our vulvas are so shameful and embarrassing that we cannot even name them. We can't even use words at all you know if we're calling them your fufu or your flower or all those other words it's um it doesn't help you when you come to the point where something's gone wrong and you need to ask for help um you know there's a problem down there is not something that is useful to a medical professional um so yeah it's not for me it starts from birth let's just get let's just get over it is not something that is useful to a medical professional.

So yeah, for me, it starts from birth. Let's just get over it. Let's just get over the taboo. Yeah, I tell my daughter, oh, I'm bleeding. Mummy's bleeding, period. And he knows. He says, mummy bleeding, period. Amazing.

Mummy cry because he knows. I'm bleeding. I'm a mess. But yeah, start them from young. Thank you so much for talking to me today, Helen. It's been amazing. I've really enjoyed it. Thank you so much.

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