Mum's The Word! The Parenting Podcast - Why We Shouldn't Stop Our Kids Crying - with Dr Martha

Episode Date: June 2, 2024

On This Week's Mum's The Word:Georgia Jones is joined by Dr Martha Deiros Collaod, better known just as Dr Martha, on this week's podcast breaking all the myths about modern parenting from crying to kissing to please & thank you's.They'll Discuss:Why we shouldn't tell our kids to stop crying?Why children aren't mini-adults!The story behind her own childbirth and motherhoodGet In Contact With Us:Do you have a question for us? Get in touch on our Whatsapp, that's 07599927537 or email us at [e-mail] for Listening---A Create Podcast Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Hello and welcome back to Mums the Word, the parenting podcast. I'm Georgia Jones and I'm your host for this week. And actually, I've got a slight child conundrum at the moment because Cooper's really, really finding his voice in terms of he thinks he is right all the time, which is very handy that we've got the guest on that we have today because I can ask all our advice. So today's guest on Mum's The Word is Dr Marta. Now Dr Marta is on Instagram as Dr Marta Psychologist and she is a clinical psychologist and HCPC, I actually don't know what I mean, registered practitioner with over 20 years of clinical and academic experience. I will ask her what HCPC means. She is also a mother of two, a yogi,

a runner, an adventure sports enthusiast. She does it all. Welcome to the podcast, Dr. Martha. Lovely to have you on the show. Hi, nice to be here. Well, me and Martha have spent a weekend, a long weekend together, haven't we? We have. Not on our own. Dipping in cold water and being, well, you were very pregnant at the time. Very pregnant. Climbing up mountains. We went on a little retreat.

It was with Neon, wasn't it? We went on this retreat. it was um it was with neon wasn't it we went on this retreat i'd never met marta before and um it was the loveliest meeting because i think we we bonded very quickly we did yeah now as i've said in the intro marta is a clinical psychologist right this is what i wanted to ask you and i said i I would. HCPC registered. What does that mean? Health Care Practitioners Council. Ah, there we go, guys. So professionals who are registered with the HCPC are often qualified and they work for the NHS.

And they, things like nurses, me, physios, speech and language therapists, we're all registered in the HCPC. And it's quite a good thing because you can look for me. So you can find me on the HCPC and it tells you that I'm a qualified professional. So it's actually really important. It's a good thing for people to know. If you want to know someone's qualified and has a protected title, so clinical psychologist is a protected title you can go on the register and you can see it'll tell you it'll say london probably see i think that's really good as well because i think there's a lot of um people that like to call themselves psychologists that maybe necessarily aren't as qualified as you'd hope so you can be a psychologist but just a

psychologist but that isn't a protected title so you could call yourself a psychologist, but just a psychologist, but that isn't a protected title. So you could call yourself a psychologist. Or my husband often says, I'm going to call myself a psychologist. Just because he spends so much time with me. I like to call myself that occasionally. But you can, and it's not protected. And the risk is on everyone. You know, the lay person, because they might look for a psychologist.

And often we don't know what the protected titles are and there's like 15 of them like in psychology so there's lots of them wow but if they're not protected then you don't know how they trained it doesn't mean that they haven't trained and they not got good qualifications but you aren't protected by it i see i see i've got it yeah that makes so much sense I said I'd ask and I've asked there you are guys now Marta when me and Marta first met I felt like I was having a session with her when we were talking because I had a lot of questions really and I was like you don't mind me asking these things do you I think a few of us women on the trip actually probably picked your brains on like how we should be how we should be

doing things um and i think i was i was very ready for a break on that trip there was a few tears wasn't there there was a few tears from a lot of people actually but i um you had a moment i had a moment i had a moment it was beautiful yeah well I mean I don't know whether I looked beautiful but it was felt better felt better after it so Marta obviously like the work you do is incredible you you on Instagram I'm gonna get up something actually um I screen I screenshot it oh great um because I found it really really interesting and it was a post you did and it was talking about things that you shouldn't say to your children and as i read it i was like oh my god i say at least 50 of these things we all do i think and i'm gonna read them out and and just like your opinion on them really so one thing i actually don't say to Cooper is stop crying because I

actually don't think that's positive to say stop crying and obviously you don't either you know and why why because tears are good I mean the other thing is about apologizing but that's not something we say to our kids but it's something we say to each other right oh I'm sorry yeah I'm crying I'm sorry yes like it needs an apology just because you're feeling something. There is no apology needed. And with our children, it's not about saying stop crying, because what we're trying to do there, hopefully, is help them through their emotion, not actually truncate it and kind of bottle it up. Because if we say stop crying to our children, we're saying, I can't tolerate your tears stop making that noise you

know this is intolerable to me yeah and children will learn to suppress they especially little boys they learn to suppress very quickly because they don't tend to see men or boys crying and therefore crying becomes something that's a bit odd and so the more we say that to a little boy, the more they suppress. With girls, we tend to say it too. But there is like a gender difference in emotions. With girls, we try and shut down their anger. So we don't like it when they're angry. That is so interesting.

Because it's so funny when you just go through life, you don't even realize those things. But that is so true. Like little boys don't really see their daddies crying that much unless you've got a particularly emotional dad but women do cry more than men yeah and some people have said things which are myths by the way this is not evidenced in any way that you know men and boys cry because they're just less emotional and actually it's absolutely not true there's a lot of brain science that shows that emotions the way that they're co-constructed on girls and boys is a socialization so we're learning about emotions in our interactions with others which is why saying stop crying is so

negative yeah because we're basically saying crying is not something that is okay yeah yeah and then we grow up with that right there's there's the apology I'm sorry I'm crying like I'm sorry I'm doing this to you and crying is so beneficial to our bodies it's really important for children to cry it's regulating so it helps their body come back to calm and it's the same for us but it also like it sends out really good hormones in our body which have shown to be like painkillers it's like our natural painkiller well it's so true though because like you know when you've had a good cry and you're like oh my god i feel so much better after that cry yeah

and but it does it almost like releases something like take some pressure out of your body doesn't it yeah and they've done some science on like if you hit yourself you know like when little kids like fall over and they cry and often as adults we're you're fine yeah what we're trying to do is be like be resilient you know be brave it's fine but actually if they cry a little bit it's good the tears also allow some of some stuff happening in the body is quite complex but it goes to where the pain is and it heals it. So it actually helps the pain, wherever it is on their knee, go away if they're crying. Right. So it's important that we just let the tears out. So what I say to my daughter,

and I try and say it to myself as well, is just let it out. So when I've started, because it's something I say to my kid a lot, I've started to internalize it. And I do think we should all be doing this more. Well, we say the same things to our kids, to ourselves, because we need to give our emotions space as well. So if I'm really upset about something, I'm like, you know what, just let it go. And when you give yourself permission, you cry, but there's an ending to it because your body just like relaxes into it. You're allowing it. Exactly. As opposed to stop crying, stop crying, where you like force yourself. Hold it in. And then it's like harder to stop crying stop crying where you like don't force

yourself and then it's like harder to stop feeling you through it aren't you when you're trying not to cry it's like when you watch a film and you're trying not to cry and you're like why why am i trying not to cry why don't i just cry yeah like it's fine yeah but it's so true about that when like your kid hurts himself like i've done it so many times Cooper scoops me up and gone come on you're fine yeah like you're absolutely fine darling off you go and actually I should be like if you're fine if you're not fine it's okay like yeah let it out and I guess I'm gonna say this as a caveat it's also okay to do what you do like it's also okay to be like hey you're fine come on let's go because sometimes you do just have to let go well and it's about flexibility you can't always just sit there with a feeling because people say that to me but you sit there with your daughter's tears all the time I'm like not all the time like but there's a balance there's

there's a knowledge there yeah and like you know at least you can exercise it sometimes yeah even if it's not all the time because sometimes we're just really tired and you know we might go against what we normally would do because we're just knackered yeah absolutely so the calm down we've kind of covered that one use your words actually i do say this to people like come on use your words tell me what tell me what is wrong because obviously he's six so he has words that of course so in my head that's like I thought that was like quite a good parenting thing to say use your words but explain to me why that maybe isn't like the best so most of the time when adults say to children use your words it's when they're whining yeah when they're maybe crying you know like you're like what are you trying to say to me and so you're like focus tell me with

your words you know so I can understand so again it's for us we're saying you you know do it for me because I don't know what you're talking about often we're in a rush but often again if they're whining you know you're like oh come on use your words you know it is that frustration that I'm not tolerating this and it's not helpful because when we say use your words to our children in those moments they can't if they could they would like as humans we communicate through language mostly so it's more effective for them to use their words but in that moment they are flooded by emotion and I always go back to brain development but children aren't mini adults they are in a very different place from us in terms of their development and their brain development so when they have an emotion it floods them that's like the only way I can explain it it's like a big wave that just

soaks them with emotion yeah and so they blah blah blah they lose their words very quickly so it's way better for us to let them borrow our words is what I tend to say because then I try and help you as an adult imagine that's what you're doing I'm lending them to you and sometimes you have to guess and sometimes parents say but I don't know what they want so if you really don't know then all you can do is just be like it's okay it's okay shh it's okay let's just sit with it let it out you know if they're crying yeah it's okay no we've got time i'm gonna listen to you when you're ready and what you're doing is regulating their emotions yeah and when they're calm they will say i need or i want or whatever

i've hurt myself whatever yeah but if they're able to if you're able to know what they want and often i know with my daughter it's often she's hungry I'll be like I think I hear mommy I'm hungry right can I have a snack and then I just say it often in a singy songy voice like I was her and then I'll say okay I'll get you a snack and then I'll go next time you can just ask for it and I will listen and over time they will find their words because you're giving them you're giving it to them right yeah and so they learn so over time they will find their words because you're giving them you're giving it to them right yeah and so they learn so over time they learn that language because they're learning it through your modeling and that is way more powerful than saying use your words when sometimes they're like i don't know what words i don't know what words are i don't know what meant to be saying

but it's so funny because like even as an adult even though we're you know obviously a lot more progressed mentally we sometimes lose our words like say if we're having you know, obviously a lot more progressed mentally, we sometimes lose our words. Like, say if we're having an argument, like... Always. You say things you don't even mean... Absolutely. ...when you're, like, in a heightened state. But I often lose my vocabulary and I'm like...

Same. I don't know what that word is. I want to search you, but I'm angry. So I can't get it out. Exactly that. And I think, because I'm bilingual, it often happens that I end up, like, in a different language just because I'm, like, I'm angry.

And emotionally, I just can't find my words. Yeah. It happens to us too. Absolutely. It does. It does. Say thank you. This is an interesting one.

I thought, because I always make Cooper say thank you. Of course you do. Because you want your kid to grow up polite. Yeah. And be, you know, a polite, agreeable kid. Who doesn't want that? Again, when we say like, say thank you, all your child learns is the words thank you.

But they're not learning gratitude because gratitude is a feeling. Right, okay, yeah. And in order to feel grateful to somebody who's given them a gift, they need to feel first. So it goes back to what I just said, you know, emotion comes first and then comes language. But if they're given, for example, a gift they need to feel first so it goes back to what i just said you know emotion comes

first and then comes language but if they're given for example a gift so christmas and birthdays is really kids tend to be overwhelmed especially when they're little as they get older you'll notice it's different they start to go thank you even before they've received a gift yeah yeah thank you yeah now it's mine yeah but when they're really little they tend to just be like oh like oh my god oh my god but they can't find their words and they can't find gratitude because there's a bigger feeling in the way and it's often excitement or you know like wonder or whatever it is you know they're like what's in this package so they're not thinking about the other often an adult that's not how

children are they're thinking about themselves in the moment because that's what their brain is doing so if we just let them be with their excitement because they're allowed to be excited about getting a present who's not excited yeah let them be and you show gratitude to the other adult like in that moment because often it feels a bit like say thank you oh so they can see us doing yeah so like oh my gosh thank you so much for getting getting them a present thank you that's so thoughtful they're hearing you yeah but they're in their thing opening their present like and then you again when they're really small i would model things so i would be like oh my god you got a little teddy how nice isn't he sweet do you love him you love the oh they love the teddy thank you so much so thoughtful you know they love a soft toy

and I would do lots of that and little by little what kids do is they will look at the other adult and they'll go thank you or children are amazing they do much better than that they show gratitude in a better way so my daughter this is a real example she loves arts and crafts she would go off sometimes she hadn't said thank you and she was quite little she'd go off she'd make something and bring it back and be like yeah I made you this and it was like you gave me a gift so I'm giving you a gift and I made it for you and it's like so more much more meaningful I think a lot of the time though like as a parent you worry about what other people think. You do. Because in my head if I didn't say to Cooper say thank you that parent

would think that my child was rude and that I wasn't parenting right. But he's not rude he's just a kid. Just a kid. And if you're saying thank you to the other adult where's the rudeness? Yeah. They got their thank you yeah and I often think if an adult is thinking no that child has to thank me then that's about them and that is I mean to me that's an odd thing to want yeah if an adult like the parent has been grateful to you that's enough like you got your gratitude also I always think when you give a gift to somebody you don't give it because they're going to give you something back yeah you know you should never give a gift for what gratitude yeah you want to give it because you want them yeah and I also I'd say to adults sometimes just

stop for a moment and watch the joy from the kids yeah because that's your gift that's your thank you really that is your thank you look at their face look at how like excited they are Because that's your gift. That's your thank you, really. That is your thank you. Look at their face. Look at how, like, excited they are. That's what you did. You did that. You should be, you know, you should be filling your cup with that. Yeah. And then the gratitude comes from us as adults. And genuinely, I've never, maybe once because I'm human, have asked my daughter to say thank you.

But I really try not to. Yeah. And she's five and a half. And she is such a grateful kid. She is so polite. And my husband always says, my God, we should like tell people. And I'm like, no, nobody will believe me.

But I promise that I practice what I preach. Yeah, yeah. She is so polite. So polite and she's learning. And I've never said say thank you, but she's so grateful for things. And she'll sometimes say things like, you thought of me and this is like my favorite thing. Oh, that's so precious. The other day she said something like, you made my life.

Do you know when they come out with things like that and you're just like, oh wow, that really means so much to me. Yeah. Praise. But it really means something to them, right? You got them. But it's not from forcing our kids to say the words. It's from allowing them to feel grateful and watching you do it. And my other thing is about saying thank you to your kid. Thank your kid over and over again. Little things that they do. Thank you for that lovely hug. Or thank you for coming when I called you.

You know, lots of thank yous. And you will see your child start to beam when you say thank you. And that's how they learn oh this feels nice yeah so then they want to give it to somebody else it's lovely when you give your kid a compliment or like you know tell them well done for something and you see it in their faces how happy it's made them cooper got i was gone school council which was just like honestly i was such a proud mum and he came home i was like cooper do you realize that's incredible i am so proud of you but i made him sit whilst i was

saying it because often you know when you're saying something to your child they're so distracted they don't care what you're saying they're just like there's something i'll tell you i was like just pause for a minute come in here and sit on my knee and let me tell you how proud i am of you and he sat there and you could see he was almost a bit like embarrassed like shy because I was gushing but it was lovely and yeah I think like it obviously meant it obviously meant something to him you could see having that from from me and you don't often just pause do you and tell them well done for this or thank you for this or we're always in a rush right

we're always in a rush and when they do things or they follow through with something you've asked you're just like oh great yeah i'll do the next thing yeah absolutely but if you just take a moment and pause and say thank you yeah really like builds up if you want to build a kid who's really grateful and kind and you need to give that to your kid because then they know what this feels like so they learn from you yeah i've realized this that a lot in therapy and now it's making me like kind of rethink me as a parent because you know you learn things from your parents like worry so my mum's a huge worrier so is mine and I am me too and I just thought oh like mother like daughter you know we're both worriers that's that but I've watched her I've watched her from

being a little girl worrying about everything and I've just become ingrained in me that that's kind of the norm but you know what's really interesting worry often people who are worriers you and me are worried that they will pass it on to their kids yes and often you think but it was passed down to me yeah the reality is that you and i have a superpower which is we understand anxiety okay we understand worries and anxieties and fears i don't know what yours are but you know i know what mine are yeah and hopefully we are learning some tools to cope with it manage it overcome it and what our kids need to see is not just our worry which is what probably you and i saw we just saw the worry the anxiety yeah with nothing to kind of not protect it but nothing to

like either side of it yeah but we can do buffer it. Either side of it, yeah. But we can do something different with our kids, which is show our kids when we're anxious or we're worried what we do that makes it better. Or I often say to my daughter, okay, my body feels really wobbly right now. My body is scared. I say this a lot to my daughter.

My body is scared right now. Like I can see myself at the playground. My body is scared right now. So I don't want you to do that because I'm not sure that I'm going to feel okay this isn't something you can do while I'm here but when daddy's here at the weekend you could go on the monkey bars yeah this is true this is a fact I get really like scared about yeah yeah yeah and I can't like it does something to. That's like Cooper on a bike. But I will tell her my body feels worried right now and this is what I need. And I will sometimes say to her, you know, mummy sometimes feels really worried about public speaking, which is true.

I find it really scary to talk in front of people. You would never know. I know. I know. People can't tell, but it's true. It's my nemesis. But I will say to her,'s really scared so these are some of the things that mommy does to feel better these are some of the things that I do that make it

better and practice helps you know talking helps you know doing it like actually just sitting and going but I can do it I can get through it helps me because she gets nervous about other things you know like she really wants to go to gymnastics but she's scared because she doesn't know anybody and like I don't know any kids I don't have any friends I don't want to do it but she does want to do it because like she's asked me to do it so we have to work through it yeah so we have to work through that and so I tell her it's okay our bodies sometimes feel shaky or wobbly and we can tell our bodies it's normal because this is new or different or something I'm not comfortable with but if I just move through it maybe my body

will settle because it realizes I'm safe nothing bad is happening here and I might learn how to do the proper monkey bars and I might learn how to do flips and I might you know it's so interesting because I always find like when I've spoken to you or like sometimes when i speak to my therapist or it's all so simple it's all actually stuff that could come so naturally yes but we don't do it and we don't think of it like i would just say oh it's fine don't worry you don't need to be worried about that. With no reasoning behind it. So Cooper's probably sat there going, but I am. So, whereas what I can literally do is explain why he doesn't need to be worried or explain

how to help with the worried feeling. Well, explain that actually being worried is normal. It's fine. Mummy gets worried and that's fine. This is how we deal with it. But I don't. And I think it's so easy for parents just to go oh don't worry about that or you don't need to feel like that stop crying this you know all those things

we are not very good with emotion are we no no i you know if we just accept that emotion is part of our human experience it's not good it's not bad yeah it's just a part of it and actually it enriches our experiences because when we feel something it often becomes memories it becomes things that are meaningful but you feel nothing that's you know like me on a tube I feel nothing I'm just flagged up I don't want to remember my trip to coming here I want to remember my conversation with you yes and I probably will remember that because I've got multiple feelings like one I was really looking forward to seeing you two I'm like I'm talking but it it means that I'm going to remember this because emotion helps us lock in our memories as

well yeah so when we normalize it when we talk about feeling as just it's a feeling yes it's very simple but it's not familiar because it often isn't what we do or what people do. And when we do it with our kids, I think one of the like special outcomes or like surprising outcomes is that you may start to do it for you. Like I said, like I've started to say to myself, oh, you know what, just let it out. Yeah. Yeah. You know, and when I talk, normalize worry to my daughter, I also normalize it for me. You know, like, of course I'm nervous, you know, and when I talk, normalize worry to my daughter, I also normalize it for me. You know, like, of course, I'm nervous. You know, loads of people are going to listen to this. What if I say something silly?

You know, like, it's normal. And then I can just go, it's okay to be nervous. Most people are nervous. Yeah. We're just a human. We're human. That is it. Do you feel like our generation is becoming kind of like more accepting of like emotion and feelings and

because i feel like my parents generation things have moved on since then i feel because i feel like with my parents generation it's all very much like kind of stiff upper lip like so obviously cooper's a boy and he's quite an emotional boy. He shows his emotion. He wears his hat on his sleeve. Which is lovely. Which is great. And that's exactly what I wanted him to be like. But it does come with comments of, oh, he's quite soft, isn't he?

Or quite... What is wrong with that? He's a very gentle little boy. And I'm like, yeah. Isn't that a good thing? I love that he's gentle. I'd be like, I know. Thank you so much.

But I always feel like it comes with quite a negative connotation. It does. And I'm like, but why? Why can't men, well, he's a man yet, but when he is, I hope that follows into his adult life. I hope he remains sensitive. I think, you know, the way that you bring him up, the way that you accept his up, the way that you accept

his emotions, all of that will mean that hopefully that's who he is. You know, again, this idea of like being sensitive, being a weakness. There is something in our society about things that we call feminine, soft, sensitive, you know, sweet. And they're attractive to some extent on women but they are seem to be so unattractive on little boys and men when actually i think this is my opinion but i think if you asked women what kind of man you look for even if you might want a rugged manly man when i say rugged you know you might be like i like beards yeah you know i like hair and to be really muscly. Yeah, or big or whatever. That's their body shape.

Fine. Yeah. But when it comes to their character, I would always choose a man who was soft and gentle and sensitive. Because to me, that equates to possibly a more loving relationship than a man who's cold. a more loving relationship than a man who's cold. Do you have an insatiable fascination with the paranormal? Brace yourself for the supernatural world is about to reveal all of its secrets

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he's really not he's really good like I like him but he's just a bit too nice why what's that why did we not want someone that was nice because we've learned that boys aren't meant to be nice yeah and little girls learn very early on things like if he's mean he must like you yeah yeah and don't you like if he's pulling your hair oh that little boy likes you can we please stop equating that as well for our kids that pain equals love not true no absolutely not if a boy hurts you or a girl hurts you that's mean full stop yes there's no they like you behind it no no they're just because that's very confusing to kids like so is love nice or is love painful or you know it's it's something that we need to really shut down literally stop literally don't say that to

your kid and but you know boys and men should be soft and sensitive like you know now my husband's a dad I love when he is soft and sensitive and my daughter has brought out a real softness in my daughters I should say because I've got two oh yeah because you've got two I was thinking about my eldest because obviously she did it first she's brought out a real soft side to my husband that was not there. Like this is true. And I think it has made him feel a lot more like I should show my emotions. So he shows his emotions a lot more. Good, because he's teaching now.

And it's really important. And I've also said to him, we don't know like which way she's going to go in terms of her sexuality and who she's gonna fancy and I'm like but I don't want her to think that men never cry or that men don't feel scared or you know that these are just women's things women's emotions because it's a lie yeah and so he's been a lot more open and kind of saying you know what he's a really shy man but he covers it up so he started to say when she's again anxiety he started to say you know I feel he's a really shy man, but he covers it up. So he started to say when she's, again, anxiety, he started to say, you know, I feel like that. I don't like meeting new people.

And she's like, really? And so it's been great. It's just opened up lots of really interesting conversations. Yeah, and it does. Because that's the thing, like, even now, as an adult, when something goes wrong with your parent i feel like we've been we have been like programmed to feel this way you instantly go but they're strong and big and nothing is ever wrong with them i can't deal with this and you're saying we've been set up to to

fail when our parents are not okay because we've just been shown that they are always okay they are never upset everything's always fine and you know whatever and actually it's not and then you know they can get ill of course and they're not necessarily okay yeah they might not be okay no i think it's important it is important for us, our generation to teach our kids that we're not always fine. Absolutely. We're not robots. No.

We're people. And also what pressure on our kids to be like, when you become an adult, by the way, you're supposed to be like this. Yeah. You've got to be like, just nothing ever goes wrong. Always okay. Always like, what? Or the only feeling that they ever see is our anger.

Yeah. So then they're like, okay, so when I grow up, I'm angry, but nothing else. What are your thoughts, just talking about anger, of, because the amount of couples that, you know, would say, oh, we don't ever argue in front of our children. We would never let them see that. What do you think to that? Do you think you should or you think you should protect them from that? I love this question i would say it's okay to argue in front of your kid in some ways it's really healthy okay you are possibly going to be teaching your child about conflict being part of

relationships and if children don't ever see conflict, then they can never see what's healthy and what's not healthy. Now, obviously this comes with a caveat that you might not know how to argue with your partner very well. Okay, some partners argue in ways that are not healthy. And I'm not in your home,

so I can't tell you what you're doing and whether it's okay or not okay. What I would say is, overall, it's better for not okay what I would say is overall it's better for a child to see you argue and then see you repair right as in makeup makeup yeah which often we do behind the scenes our kids might see us bicker but then they don't see us like join up together be like I'm sorry I said that yeah me too okay let's make a cup of tea because they're in sleep they're in bed yeah yeah yeah but actually we need to show our kids the next day

you know give each other a hug and actually repair which I know feels made up but it makes a difference to your kids they need to see you kind of come together yeah that is healthier than your child never seeing you argue right because conflict is a part of relationships and good relationships use conflict as a way of building intimacy. Right. Because we are able, hopefully, in a good conflict to share each other's needs and to understand each other better. What conflict does, hopefully, is reach a resolution where both of you feel better. Yeah. Right. That's healthy conflict.

Yeah. Yeah. Of course. And that's healthy yeah yeah of course and that's why if they never see conflict then they never see how you can get your needs met or how you can get yourself heard when something is not fair or you're feeling you know a sense of injustice or whatever it is kids are like oh I don't know how this works so then how are they supposed to be able to navigate that yeah and then if they argue with someone does it mean that relationship is unhealthy i should not be with them because i've argued and i've never seen my parents argue before so it's better for children to see the arguments of course if you're violent or aggressive yeah that's not great i would shield your child from that or if you're putting each other down in ways that are aggressive

you know name calling i would say yep definitely shield your child from that but also maybe learn to not talk to each other that way because that's not healthy no it's interesting like i find that's like such a a really really helpful thing that you say you know show them the making up part because when i was a little girl i remember mum and dad would wait till we'd gone to bed if they wanted to have an argument but we could hear them you knew so you can hear them and then kids catastrophize it like i would always think mum and dad were on the brink of breaking up that was it well that was it they were getting a divorce every time they argued it could probably just have like who took the bins out or something but you know and but I would never see the making up part so I made it all not that they argued all the time it was just every now and again when they did I never saw the making up but your reaction is really normal that is what most

kids do is it yeah and if they only see you argue and then the next day you just carry on the other thing to know is that they've done some studies on this kids nervous system stays on high alert oh okay so they're like everything's normal but is it normal yeah you know like your sense of are they going to break up yeah that stays for a while like potentially for some kids it can be days until they're like oh everything's normal it's fine right but you might have made up 20 minutes later yeah if your kid hasn't seen it they don't know they spend three days going what's going on three days in panic mode oh my god that's all poor little kids but often we don't think about it as adults and it's the repair that's the most powerful thing so it's okay for you to bicker argue with your and like me and my husband do a lot of bickering and stuff i think it's just how we are

and we sometimes say to our daughter you know we're just arguing but we still love each other so we say that even in the middle of an argument if she's there my eldest the baby doesn't know what's going on but you know we're not shouting each other but we are discussing something yeah arguing a discussion i like to call it a discussion it's when you're not fully shouting no but you're like i don't agree with that. Well, I don't agree. You're annoyed. Yeah.

And we're in the car or something. We'll say to our eldest, by the way, yes, this is happening, but we still love each other. Yeah. And like, even at times we're like, we still love each other. Yeah. Don't really love you that much right now. Exactly. We do.

And we'll tend to say like, we're still a family. We still love each other. We're just having an argument. You know, nothing bad is is happening and she tends to now go yeah all right because she's kind of like she's learned it she understands i get it she's chilled about it she sees us repair yeah and so she's like okay and we repair with her so she understands she repairs back the other day she said to me sorry mommy i was really rude earlier and I was like oh that's great that's so good that she just spoke to me in a snappy way she's five but I said nothing I just carried on and then something else happened and she gave me a cuddle and then she said I'm sorry I was really

rude earlier but she knows like oh my god and I'm like that's amazing and I think it's come from so much teaching the other way. She's learning. Now, one thing that was on this list, and this is one I'm not sure I can get on board with, but this is, do you know what this is? This is my own personal issue. Go on. Asking your child for a kiss. Oh, consent. And if Cooper says no to me, I'm deeply offended.

Oh, don't. If Cooper says no to me, I'm deeply offended. Because I'm a real like active, like a touch person. What does it mean to you, that kiss from Cooper? Oh, like everything. So if he doesn't want to kiss me, I'm like, oh my God. Do you feel rejected? Fully rejected. I'm like, I grew you for nine months. You're like the love of my life.

Like, oh, you're just everything. And you don't want to kiss me and no and it's terrible and i know i shouldn't feel that way it's hard yeah you should you're allowed to feel that way am i allowed to feel that way but of course you are because it's really hard and i think if he says no to a kiss i would because of how you feel like i tend to say much of that's fine i love you anyway because i just kind of let it go but if you struggle with it and you feel very passionate about it i would say to cooper how else can you show me that you love me ask him ask him because do you know what i say which is terrible it's probably like really mentally mentally harming

too much i go i go i hope you don't i hope you don't ever stop kissing your mummy oh no that's fine but then but then if he doesn't want to he's probably going to be like oh no no i feel a bit shit because mum's really upset or i'll suck i'll suck i go into like proper childbirth i'm like oh it means a lot to you yeah he's so firstly he's not rejecting you no why don't they want he loves because they don't want some kids are not into lots of kisses some kids are some kids aren't like it's gooey and it's yeah maybe he's playing and he's like I don't want to kiss you right now mom you know right now now doesn't mean I don't love you or um but think

about it in a couple relationship. Like it is quite important. And somebody's like, can I have a kiss? And they're like, no. Oh, you don't love me. Yeah. Yeah. No, I just don't want to give you a kiss.

But it's about consent is tricky because I wasn't taught consent. No. I don't think most of us were taught consent. And now we're teaching it to our kids. consent no I don't think most of us were taught consent and now we're teaching it to our kids and it just feels a bit odd that somebody can say no to you when you're like well how do you show affection how do you show love so ask your kids like open it up so we never force our daughters to kiss anyone obviously the baby's a baby so at the moment it's a free-for-all she gets lots of kisses yeah but um we always say to our daughter

like especially around grandparents other adults you know she does not have to kiss them but she has to say something she has to do something to say hello or to say goodbye yes yeah if it's not a hug and it's not a kiss what does she want to do she often wants to do she used to want to do a high five yeah okay now she now she cuddles she's more likely to give somebody a hug and she knows them yeah she doesn't know them she tends to do a little wave okay um and then we accept it and some adults don't like it yeah yeah so my mum finds this very difficult does she yeah and because she's abroad she doesn't see our kids as often so she wants she also she wants it she's come here, give me a kiss.

My daughter's like, no. Because in her experience, she's like, I don't remember you. She does remember her, but she's like, we don't have that physical closeness. The long distancing for kids. It's hard. It feels like you've not seen their memory. I'll sometimes say to Cooper, do you remember that person? He's like, no.

Exactly. I'm like, oh my God, how? But then I'm like oh you were three and to my daughter I often think my mum is just like an old lady who's friendly and lovely and but she doesn't see that often yeah so if she only sees her three times a year for a couple of weeks it's odd for her of course I am not gonna force her yeah and my mum finds that horrific because she like, you need to tell her she has to kiss me. And I'm like, no, I can't. I can't do that. I'm not doing that.

I can't do that. See, I'm like that. Like, it goes against everything I feel is right. Yeah. And over time, like, now she's older. When she was little, it was harder. Now she's much older. So we're going to Spain in August, for example.

My daughter's really excited about seeing her grandma. And now when she sees her, she tends to run and give her a cuddle. Because she remembers, like, she's older. Yeah. She remembers her. She's when she sees her she tends to run and give her a cuddle because she remembers like she's older yeah she remembers her getting absorbed into her brain now isn't it yeah i've come from a very affectionate family like the i know this is really up for debate and i think people are really 50 50 on this but i still kissed my mum and dad that's absolutely fine on the lips well if that's okay to you. Like, it's not like... What's it, 50-50? As in people don't like it.

As in people are like, you kiss your mum and dad on the lips. I'm like, yeah. And so a lot of people find that very weird. Whereas I think it's completely normal. I think it's unique to each family. Yeah. I think if it's in your family,

that's the agreed, I don't know, way. Level of affection, yeah. That's fine. Yeah. So I think for me me that's kind of like ingrained in me that's very learned and so then i put it onto cooper but actually he you know he might not like that so i do need to take his feelings not mine into consideration also affection doesn't have to be physical no it could be like sometimes i do a little like a i heart you action that's cute this has

been filmed i love you yeah me and my daughter do this because she loves the hand heart yeah so she does that from afar especially if she's like somewhere you know a party or something she catches my eye i might do that to her yeah she loves it like she loves it i do a little squeeze on cooper's hand and actually do you know he taught me that um gee Fletcher she does it she does it and she does like a three squeeze and it which is I love you and I I do it to Cooper now and I always say to him do you know what that means and he and he goes yeah and then he does it back but he just loves I'm like and he goes do you know what that meant mummy and I was like no he's like i love you more than the moon and the stars i was like okay great brilliant thank you so much so i suppose he is

learning his other little ways of like showing we've been talking for so long and i'm gonna have to wrap it up soon but before i do i would like to ask you a little bit about you okay um and your parenting journey because obviously people ask you questions all the time about what I've just done basically bombarded with you with how do I deal with this but how was your parenting journey you've obviously got two little girls I do now a five and a half year old and an eight month old yeah and what has it always been like planned sailing for you or no no no first time I had a beautiful birth I've been one of those super privileged people where my births have been beautiful so I have no horror stories just beautiful magical yeah it gives me goosebumps if i think about my eldest one

because it was so wonderful but i'm also one of those people who has had hg and pregnancy twice yes my pregnancy has been hell like hell were you ever hospitalized with no hg just just water oh i can't even imagine because i do i can't deal with a hangover for one day. And it's like being hung over for. It is like being hung over. It's like the room spins nonstop. Oh, God. And just vomiting every day.

And like, if anybody talks to me about ginger biscuits. I feel like every woman. I'm shoving them. Every woman that's had HG is. HG? I've said that already. Yeah. Says the same thing.

Don't tell me to eat ginger. don't tell me to eat don't tell me to eat ginger biscuit please go away yeah but have you tried oh yes i've tried it all go away like it's just nothing nothing was there anything you actually found green apples green apples so weird oh it's really acidic green apples cold green apples and water just water green apples was my initial craving. And to be honest, not eating. No, just not eating. Which is crazy.

And I was like, I just, I'm not, just won't eat. It's quite hard as well. Because like when you're pregnant, you kind of want to be like the healthiest you can be, don't you? I know, I know. Was it quite hard like being like, God, I'm not giving my body any nutrients? Yeah, yeah. The first time was I was panicked I lost weight and I was pregnant and I was like what is going on yeah and they were like the baby's fine you're

not baby you're not yeah uh the baby's fine you just need to keep hydrated and actually the things that yeah green apples and also just crunchy vegetables ah right it's the current like the crunch just crunch like but actually tomatoes or you would eat like punnets of cherry tomatoes oh wow but actually it's got a lot of liquid in it so that's probably what saved me yeah yeah but nothing yeah i couldn't really eat solids i would not eat a meal like nothing cooked because it smells and i couldn't oh yeah i couldn't go near anything that smelled like honestly it's horrendous yeah so that was a weird introduction to motherhood because I knew about it but I never really thought I'll get it and then it was horrendous

and then with my first it just kind of hit me it was a bit like I'd been hit by a bus there's the other way a train yeah steamroller yeah honestly I found it really hard yeah like that first six to eight weeks felt really hard I remember being like who am I like mattresses you know like the coming into motherhood was actually really hard for me because it's it's we we don't we don't know anything and I think being a child psychologist makes you think I should know I should yeah did you feel that that added pressure onto you yeah I did from nobody else no just for yourself yeah you put it on Instagram like no one no one no one was like Marta you should be knowing what to do it was me going what yeah I don't know everything from like breastfeeding to

just my body you know the way I looked the way I felt exhaustion all of it all of it just felt like what is going on and I just I cried a lot and I wasn't depressed but I remember saying to my husband so at least I had the sense to say that I said to my husband if I start to have some really dark thoughts I'm gonna have to tell you and I will need some help yeah so I remember that with my first and being really clear that something wasn't right like that's really really healthy that you were vocal because I wasn't I mean I think that was with a psychologist yeah yeah so but I said to my husband I will tell you and I did have but they were dark thoughts about me.

And I said this all the time and it's true. My eldest kind of got me out. It was her that got me out of like this weird place that I got. Because it was about me and my motherhood and my identity. And I found it really difficult. Like, I just didn't recognize myself. That's it. I think that's such a key thing to say is the

identity loss like it was so hard for me we all go through that motion of being like what am I now then am I am I mother and and that's kind of like my role and what what else is my role exactly because I was this before and I was this before. Can I be it again? And who knows? And it's like the fear of the unknown in every sense of your life. And you are changed. Like I am changed. I am totally.

But those other parts of me are still there. Yeah. It's just that for a while, you just kind of have to put them on pause. You know, like stick them on a shelf and be like, I'm coming back for you. But for now, I just have to do this and your our brains are meant to do that they're meant to just focus on the baby and you know keep them alive survival biology it's biology but it's really hard and the first time like I didn't know about it like nobody told you and you just have to go through it and it was really really hard the second time i was prepared

i was like i'm parking these bits of me and i did pausing them and then it was so much easier because you gave yourself i can't believe how much it was yeah but that that's a really i think that's a really really important thing to say is putting those parts on pause they've not gone no just they're waiting for you yeah so when you when you're ready to when you're ready don't rush too much either especially if you're having a first child like yeah it takes time and it's slow but just let it happen because then hopefully you won't have this weird disjointed yeah thing happening you'll just go with the flow i feel like a lot of women oh my

god the amount if so many women had have heard that just put it on pause when they had their baby i feel like i mean that certainly would have helped me because i wanted i was just trying me too trying to do everything same and failing it at all while it felt like i was feeling it at all yeah and instead like with my second i just just remembered, I was just like, I'm just going to live in pyjamas all day. Yeah. Who cares? I'm going to hype in it. Who cares?

Yeah. No one. No one cares. Nobody cares. Well, at first I was like, I need to have a shower. I need to wash my hair.

I need to like, get dressed. Yeah. What am I doing? I know, with Cooper. What's going on? Obviously,

I've only had one, but I was like, if I don't get dressed, that's so bad. I know, like, I can't even get dressed. Why? Who cares? I remember going to the coffee shop, I think I nearly had a panic attack if I don't get dressed that's so bad I know like I can't even get dressed like why who

I remember going to the coffee shop I think I nearly had a panic attack and I didn't know why I didn't know what it was my body it was literally my body being like why are you here get back to bed

go home I think it was like two days in yeah and I was just trying to I think that happens to so many women oh god I'm like just go home

go home just yeah close the doors. Close the windows. Yeah, just hibernate. Hibernate. It doesn't matter what time of year it is.

Hibernate. No. Hang out with the baby, you know, skin to skin. Yeah. Get your boobs out. Yeah. Do what you want. Oh, God, yeah.

Just have your boobs out. Yeah, have your boobs out. Forget the bras and they're, like, uncomfortable when your milk comes in. Yeah. I remember, because I'd had stitches and stuff. All I wanted to do was lay there kind of just with everything hanging out. And I think because there was like people in the house, guests were coming to visit. That's the problem, isn't it?

And I remember my body fit. I'm holding my boobs because I remember it was my boobs especially. And I ended up getting thrush on my nipples because they were so constricted all the time in tops because, you know, I was like trying to go out of the house and do all these things. I wasn't letting my body like repair and breathe. Exactly. And we forget, right, nine months. I mean, I had HG, but even without HG, nine months, you're making a human.

Yeah. And there's actually these beautiful images that show like when the baby's born. And it's like your organs are still all displaced. It's not like they go, oh, back in place. No. It takes months for your organs to go back. Yeah. Your stomach is still up here.

Yeah. You know, like you've just had a baby. Like let your body rest. Yeah. It takes nine months to create a baby. I've heard this like it takes nine months and then it takes another nine months for the, like I've not even had nine months yet no you've got another month to go but I'm feeling more me now yeah but I think it's true that it just basically takes another nine months to find you again and it's okay if the you you find is different because you have a new part of

your identity that was never there which is a mother and that part of your identity that was never there, which is a mother. And that part of my identity has completely transformed me. Like in a good way, obviously. I think in a good way. Good. And it's like the most life-changing thing I've ever done is have a kid. And I would have never thought that. To me, it was just like, I have a kid and then I just carry on. Yeah, just potter on like normal.

Oh no, I had a kid and then that completely changed me. Yeah, because then I remember that. And then it's changed my life because my work, the things that I do, lots of things have happened because I had a kid and because I chose to change the things that I was doing for my kid, if that makes sense. Yeah, complete sense. So yeah, it is interesting. Well, Marta, that was a fabulous chat. So informative. Like, honestly, I love talking to psychologists. I think it's one of my favourite things. I feel like I miss my calling in life. Oh, there's still time.

Oh, there is still time. Hey, you're right. You're right. But thank you. You've been a wonderful guest. Thank you so much for having me. It's been lovely. Thanks for listening to mum's the word

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