Mum's The Word! The Parenting Podcast - Zanna Van Dijk

Episode Date: March 27, 2022

On this week's episode of Mum's The Word, Ashley is joined by lifestyle blogger and co-founder of Stay Wild, Zanna Van Dijk. They're talking all about Zanna's decision making process when it comes to having children, the social and financial inequality of parenthood, and working out if it's really possible for women to have it all. If you want to ask Ashley a question, get in touch at [e-mail]---A Create Podcast Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

I'm really excited about today's podcast episode it's a little bit different to the normal one but I think a really really important conversation to have and I suppose that it should really come with a bit of a trigger warning because I want to talk about being child free and actually the choice to be child free so the reason obviously I want to put a trigger warning is because lots of people sadly don't have the choice to have children. It's not always a choice for those who are struggling to conceive. So whilst I feel like it's a really important conversation to have, I also want to be sensitive and bear in mind the friends and strangers who are going through their own fertility battles at the moment. Today's guest, she is one of my favorite influences to follow.

She is a Forbes 30 under 30 entrepreneur. She's, I suppose, a lifestyle and travel blogger. She's an author and also has one of my favorite interior accounts where I get lots and lots of inspo. It's Susanna van Dyck. Hello. What a lovely introduction. Thanks, mate. Was it a lovely introduction? I feel like it was a bit of a waffly introduction. You know what? I'll take it. My mind is like going ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, ding, because I've been so excited for weeks to talk to you about this topic.

Yeah, I think it's going to be a really interesting one because I've been so excited for weeks to talk to you about this topic. Yeah, I think it's going to be a really interesting one because I've been on an absolute journey with this particular subject. So you are in a long-term relationship with a guy called Ant, Antony. Yeah, he's a good egg. He's a very good egg. I saw that you did a blog post about, well, it was called To Baby or Not. post about, well, it was called To Baby or Not. And I think it's really interesting because for me personally, I'm someone that had always said I didn't want children. And it was always put to me like, oh, you'll change your mind, you'll change your mind. And obviously, circumstances dictated that I did change my mind, but I never actually had that conscious conversation around whether to have children or not. And actually, when I first met Tom, he made it clear right from the beginning

that he really wanted children to the point that I said to him, maybe we aren't right together because I actually can't guarantee that for you. And I believe in fate and the universe. And now I have a child, Alf, who is amazing. But I do think it's still a really important conversation to have because it is usually dismissed, isn't it? And I can say that I've had like some very similar thoughts to you. But no, I personally am somebody who, I mean, we can hop back to when I was like a teenager and the whole societal expectation around children, the fact that

we're not even encouraged to think about it. think that we're just assumed it's presumed that we're going to want children and I naively presumed that I would want children and never really questioned the fact so when I was a teenager and in my early 20s I never really had a conscious thought about being a mother I just kind of assumed like that's what I'll do because it's the tick box exercise like meet a partner get married have kids you know have our house have our life that's just the trajectory that I saw for myself because it's the trajectory that the vast majority of people see for themselves and I think it's natural for that to be the expectation because I think so many people do find joy and fulfillment in that. And I assumed that I would too. But then as I came into my mid-20s and my career started to take off, I was like, oh, this kid thing would really kind of throw a tornado into my life.

And I don't know if that's what I want because I'm really enjoying my career. And I kind of started to define myself as a career woman. And that was when I really started to question whether motherhood was for me. And since then, it's been a roller coaster, I have to say. How old are you now? 29. 29. It's funny, isn't it? Because I suppose I was exactly the same. Growing up as a teenager, I had this almost timeline for myself. I'll go to university. I'll get engaged at university.

I'll probably get married a year or two after university. And I'll probably have kids by, I don't know, like 28 or 27, 28. And it didn't occur to me that you don't just like handpick the person that you want to spend the rest of your life with. It doesn't work that way. And also, similar to you, I got to those ages and I thought, well, I'm not ready, but also I felt very unraternal. And I don't know if that's because apart from when I was an au pair. So when I was 20, I was an au pair in France. That was really the first and only time I'd ever been around children. I don't have young family members. I don't have, or I didn't at the time, have friends that had babies. So I think it just became a really alien part of my life.

And then I remember hanging around people with kids being like, oh God, is that what it is? Because I feel like Hollywood kind of has this whole narrative of like you meet someone and it's amazing. And then naturally you have children and that's what life is about. But I did keep thinking like when I'm older, I'll have kids. When I'm older, I'll obviously have kids. Even when I found out I was pregnant, I remember like saying to my friend, Jackie, I'm not old enough. And she was like, Ashley, you're 34. I was like, me? Why do you think it is such a taboo to question

having children? I think it's interesting. I think the reason it such a taboo to question having children? I think it's interesting. I think the reason it's a taboo is because the social norm is to have them. Right now in our society, the social norm is to have children. And it is expected not just in our culture, but in cultures all across the whole world. So to go against the social norm of any kind is something which people question. I go against social norms in other parts of my life. my boyfriend is like six inches shorter than me people seem to get very offended by that social norms shouldn't dictate all of our choices there's many different ways to lead a life and I think I personally went through a phase in my I don't know what age I was

like 23 to 28 of being like screw the social norms I'm just gonna go against everything and I actually went through a few years of being really anti-tradition anti-traditional I'm still anti-tradition I think yeah so I was like I'm not gonna get married I'm not gonna have kids I'm not gonna do this I'm not gonna do that now I'm kind of coming around to more traditional elements of I don't know adultinging. But I went through quite a few years of rebelling against that. And I think that was a really valuable time for me to call into question these social norms, because I think it's actually really, really important for us to not just follow the crowd, because that isn't necessarily what's going to be the right

thing for you. There should be more encouragement around women questioning and men and just couples of any gender questioning whether having children is the right thing for them to do. You can't just presume that it's going to be something which is going to be the best thing you've ever done in your life. It might well be the best thing you've ever done in your life. But to presume that it's the thing that you want to do, because it's the biggest, well, it sounds really the biggest choice you're ever going to make and the biggest change you're ever going to have potentially in your life so for you to make that choice I don't think you should just be like yeah sure I think you should actually think about it I mean sure there's many many women who feel like

their life goal their purpose how they're going to gain the fulfillment is to be a mum and they've known since they were young that they're going to be a mum. And like, I am so happy for you. I wish that I just knew. It's taken me a long time to know what I want. But I'm not ashamed of the fact that it took me years, literal years to come to a conclusion of what I want to do with my body and with my life. And I think there shouldn't be shame around that. We should be encouraging women to question such huge life choices. It's interesting, isn't it? Because listening to you talk about traditions and the fact that we should be allowed to think about these things and to not always go along with tradition, there's actually a psychological phenomenon called herding. So we want to do what others do.

But also, we are kind of the first generation that have had the freedom to be able to do what we want to do, because we can technically, I'm unmarried, so I have a child and I'm not facing community banishment for having a child. My child is socially accepted. Is he a bastard? He is, isn't he? Because he's an unmarried. I have no idea, but he's out of wedlock. Yeah, out of wedlock. We can buy houses without a man. We can have a stellar career. We can out-earn men. Not always easily, but the freedom for us to do those things is there. However, society almost hasn't caught up with that freedom. So there's still this sort of expectation on women. And even as you said, I'm a career woman. And I always felt like that as well. And it's interesting, isn't it, that we sort of have to pigeonhole ourselves into one or another, where either a maternal person that has children, or we are a career woman. And people really want career women at work, they want you to be career focused, it's frowned upon to want children.

But then in society, it's frowned upon to say you don't want children. So how can we be both? And I remember shortly after giving birth to Al, a friend of mine said to me, oh, I think I haven't had kids because I focused on my career. And I took it really personally because I was like, I focused on my career and I am a career woman. And I was like, oh my God, have I been written off as a career woman because I chose to have children? Whereas I feel like Tommy or men in general would never have to think about that. Like nobody's going to be questioning

whether Tommy's still a career man and he can be a dad and be a career man. And I notice it in lots of conversations that I hear. If people see that a woman's out all the time, I hear people being like, oh, when is she looking after her children? But nobody would ever see a man out and about and be like, who looks after his children? Because it's presumed it would be the man.

And the other week I had to go to a work event and it was in the evening. And I'd say about seven people asked me who was looking after the baby. Not in a necessarily judgmental or bitchy way but I was like um the other the other 50 percent of the parent yeah this is something which I've struggled with on my like personal journey of working out what I want to do in regards to motherhood was the different expectations that are placed on women and men and the the imbalances because I just know that my partner would have two weeks paternity leave and he would go back to work and he would work five days a week and he would live this semi-normal life compared

to what it was pre-kids obviously come home at night and have the weekends but my I feel like my whole life will be the one that will change and transform and completely adjust and my career goals will have to adjust a little bit I feel I still think that you can be a career woman and have children but it will adapt and modify and change and I feel like I just worried for a long time that I would resent my partner for the fact that like he can go and live a semi-normal life with less judgment and expectation placed upon him whereas I would go and become a mother and then I would be the one where everybody's saying why aren't you at home with the kids or how how come you're getting to go off traveling whereas if he went off and traveled for business nobody would ever question him so I think that was something which like really got me thinking like what how do I how

is there a way that I can try and re-establish this balance if we do decide to have a kid you know I mean it's really interesting because resentment is a major theme I think that I've spoken about it a lot before on the podcast that I had this idea of 50-50 parenting our whole relationship has always been very equal I'd say I'm a very alpha female I always feel like quite an alpha female and I've always worked we've always been pretty equal so when I got pregnant and we were talking about having children and Tommy was like it'll be 50-50 like you know it'll be 50-50 and I've always worked. We've always been pretty equal. So when I got pregnant and we were talking about having children and Tommy was like, it'll be 50-50, like, you know, it'll be 50-50. And I was like, yeah, 50-50.

And I think I got a huge culture shock when suddenly he was going back off to work. And I was like, but what about me? I have to stay here. And he was like, well, what did you think it would be like? And I was like, 50-50? And he was like, but what do you want me to do? I've used all my paternity leave. And I realized that as 50-50 as a lot of couples are,

by the way, if you are not a 50-50 couple, whatever works for you is absolutely fine. There is no judgment around these conversations because some people actually really enjoy those sort of more traditional domestic roles and whatever floats your boat and whatever works for you. Like this is not a conversation to be judgmental, but in my world, I'd always been very equal, if not the more dominant person in a relationship. So at one point, Tommy was like, well, what do you want me to do? Do you want me to quit my job? And I was like, well, obviously not. But then I realized I realized i was like oh it's not that we aren't 50 50 because we are and we you know tommy goes above and beyond to try and do his part but it's that society is not 50 50 and you know we have this thing called hands on dads the fact that

people say oh it's tommy babysitting no no no i'm not i'm not him. I'm not paying him a fiver to look after the kid. He's parenting. But yeah, it's just the whole expectation around it that even though we've progressed so much in society, there is still that expectation that the woman does it all. Did you feel any feelings of resentment? Oh my God, massive, massive, massive feelings of resentment. I'd say all the arguments that we had, luckily, we're also very good at communicating our feelings. But I really felt hard done by, which is terrible to say because, and again, I wish that I'd probably thought about it a lot easier because I was in childcare and I feel like I have more of my life back. But I feel like Tommy got his life back a lot quicker.

And that was really hard because I felt that I just made all the sacrifices with carrying the baby and birthing the baby. But then, I mean, I think it was also like a particularly difficult time because we were in a pandemic. So I went for months and months without seeing my friends. But before lockdown, I was seeing my friends more than I was seeing Tommy. You know, my friends are really my lifeline. But also, I guess I felt resentful of biology because I was breastfeeding. And obviously that was a choice, but one that I wanted to do. And so a lot of the time, like as much as Tommy wanted to help, and that was hard for him as well, because, you know, I was very much caught up in my own resentment of him, but I think it was hard for him to not be needed as much in the beginning because Alf didn't need him. He didn't want him

to go to sleep because he wanted to feed to sleep. So yeah, I mean, now it's definitely, it's definitely got better, but I do find the expectations that society place and the judgment society puts on. I always say it's a little bit like Boris Johnson's lockdown announcement where it's like, stay at home, but don't stay at home. Because it's like people expect you to be a stay at home mom, but go to work. But when you go to work, don't leave to have a baby. And don't ask to leave early to do the school pickups. So it's like you're trying to battle if you're in a in a career like almost not being a mom but then being a full-time mom for to like keep up

with society's expectations and actually you you can't win you like you really can't win which is why I think you have to do what works for you you know people people really judge a lot of the different support where did you find a lot of your resources when you were kind of like what where did you start basically with having started to think about is is child motherhood for me I think I'm somebody like if you know me I'm very methodical very organized very like to-do list, schedules, like that's how I live my life. So when I decided I'm going to do something, it's like a project. So I was like, right, motherhood. This is my new project. I'm going to learn about this thing, this like massive life changing thing.

I'm going to decide if it's for me. So in terms of my journey, I then decided when I was like 24, not going to be a mum. And I just said, I'm not going to be a mum for probably like two years. And then maybe like 26, I'm 29 now. Yeah, 26. I was actually, I need to know more about motherhood. And then I can make an educated decision because I'm just writing it off without really knowing anything about it. I had no friends who had babies. I didn't know anything about motherhood.

And I was similar to you in the sense that I was not maternal. And I am still not maternal. And I haven't really had any experience with young kids because I was the youngest of two. And my mom had me when she was a little bit older. So none of her friends had kids after me, et cetera, et cetera. And everybody spent time around children. So then basically I was like, OK, to educate myself about this whole thing. I haven't really thought about it. I just kind of brushed it aside and said it's not for me so I decided to read books I'm an avid reader so I've read I mean a bazillion books I've lost track of how many books I've read and the books have been like women's memoirs of their experiences having children through to like more educational books about how people raise their children just so I can get an insight into what

it actually is to raise a child then I've also listened to I mean every baby podcast you can think about you know like maybe baby to baby or not to baby etc etc love those love those and also podcasts by mums who have children like this podcast or like happy mum happy baby hearing people talk about both sides of the experience people who've chosen to not have children which is a minority so it's hard to hear as many experiences of that and hearing from women who have had children and hearing the highs and the lows it's kind of it kind of felt like this determination to expose myself to all the worst bits of motherhood and like hear about all the hardest bits and then ask myself does that sound doable

do you know what I mean because I've like I've heard about your struggles I've heard about Kate's struggles I've heard about so many women's struggles and I'm like do I actually think I can do that did you find it hard to find people talking about struggles because I mean I never really looked into it too much but I do feel like motherhood tends to be glossed over and interestingly my podcast episode with Kate Lawler is out and we talk about not being maternal and the kind of depths of despair that we both got to at different points in our motherhood journey around postnatal depression and suicidal ideation. And I'm seeing loads of messages from people being like, you shouldn't talk about those kinds of things because you'll put people off having children or you'll scare pregnant people.

And I do find that every time I try to be open about the difficulties and the lows, it is sort of like pushed back on me, like whether it's talking about my birth story. And I've interviewed loads of people on here that have had really positive birth stories. And I listened to podcasts when I was pregnant. I only wanted the positives, each to their own. But I went on to Spotify and found one called, I think it was like positive birth stories. But obviously now that I'm a mom and that I had like quite a traumatic birth, I talk about it quite openly. And every time I do, people are like, oh, you shouldn't talk about it because it'll really scare pregnant women. And I feel like

every time, everybody always seems to shout that they want mums to not gloss over motherhood, especially as an influencer, especially on social media. But then I feel like each time you do, you're shut down very quickly. You should be grateful. Lots of people can't have children and lots of people would dream of having children. And I find it really hard not to be silenced. I think that's like just so ludicrous you just cannot win online nowadays I think there's so much value in sharing all experiences whether positive or negative because ultimately if you share only as you said like if you share any positive experiences people like you need to be more real if you share negative experiences it's like no you're scaring people whatever you

do somebody is upset and offended I feel like motherhood is this very tender delicate subject online where like whatever you do you're not going to win but I think if you can cope with people criticizing you for sharing the negatives I think it's so important because I think I know so many women now that I'm like almost 30 quite a lot of my friends have had kids I know so many of them who have said to me, God, I wish somebody had just said to me, like, it can be bloody shit. It can be really, really shit. Why did nobody tell me that? This is what we need. We need these conversations where people are saying how hard it is, how dark it got, how low they got. Because if you're not aware of that, I feel like you go into it not knowing what the hell is going to happen. You go into it with this idea of sunshine, rainbows, and all this bliss that you're going to

have in this newborn bubble of snuggles. And the reality is that, I mean, it can happen, but it doesn't happen for everybody. It's like the biggest identity shift and lifestyle shift you'll potentially ever go through in your whole life. And I feel like we need more women to be aware of what's going to happen so they can brace themselves for what they're going to be going through rather than going in naively, not expecting to have like a gigantic seismic shift in their whole identity and existence. It's interesting for me as well, because as somebody who always said they didn't want children and I was always told, oh, no, women that don't have children are selfish. oh no, women, that down child, they're not selfish. That word selfish was thrown around a lot. Either you'll change your mind or you won't experience love until you've had a child.

And I was like, well, I love my dog. I'll still say now, I love my dog. And when I had a baby and I was struggling and I was like, oh, but how will I be able to travel? How will I be able to go diving? How will I be able to do all of these things that make me happy? And then it would come back in my face of like, well, you're a mom,

what did you expect? And I was like, oh, so now I'm selfish because I want to do all the things that I wanted to do originally, but I was selfish because I didn't want children. So I think, yeah, it's a really difficult thing to navigate. What resources did you think were the best for finding those sort of like realities of motherhood and I suppose the highs as well as the lows there's a book which really really really I cannot recommend enough it's called the mother of all jobs and it's about it's basically the tagline is like navigating a career while having children and it doesn't just talk about the newborn phase in the first two three four years it talks about teenagers it talks about like long

term how you can navigate a career while having kids and I found that like equal parts terrifying but also like so insightful and so practical I feel like the vast majority of the things that I've exposed myself to have been memoirs and personal experiences. So it's been following people online who've gone through the journey of becoming a mother. It's been listening to people's personal experiences on podcasts.

I haven't actually managed to find too many resources which are like educational on things like navigating careers and motherhood. And that was the first book where I was like, wow, this is so practical. This is so useful. Like if I do decide to do this, like this is full of nuggets of knowledge

and things that I could actually implement in my life. So highly, highly, highly recommend that. And then, yeah, for me, it's been also as I get older, like I've been around more people who have children, especially since I've moved to Surrey. I mean, it's like Nappy Valley out here so seeing so many people with kids meeting so many people with kids and just asking them honestly like hey how's it going what's it like or like even my agent recently had a baby and just sitting down with her after her maternity leave and saying yo how

how was the last six months what how was that experience for you and asking people honestly to to share the highs and the lows. And I think when you have that one-on-one conversation with somebody, like, yeah, there's amazing influencers online who can share as much as they feel comfortable sharing, but we're all bound by limitations online because we have to have some boundaries to self-protect ourselves. But when you have a conversation with somebody in person, I feel like they can really open up and tell you the highs, the lows, nothing in between. So I think for me, some of the most important resources that I've had have been conversations with like real life human beings and asking them about their experiences.

And do you feel like people are quite open to sharing their lows with you? Oh, yeah. And I think it's because number one, one I'm an open book so if you're open with somebody they're open back to you I often feel so I would go up to my friends who have kids and be like hey I'm like in this real conundrum of like what the hell do I want to do with my life do I want to do this and I just need to know about like your experiences these are the doubts that I have these are the questions that I have can you just tell me whatever you feel comfortable telling me and I think so many women don't feel heard about the struggles that they've had. So they just revel in an opportunity to open up and kind of share

the highs and the lows. So I feel pretty much every person that I've asked has been somebody that I know pretty well, but they've all been so willing to be vulnerable and open with me. And that's been so valuable. Push Your Peak is a brand new podcast brought to you by What Bike? Join me, Louise Minchin and some of the world's most incredible sports people to learn what it takes mentally and physically to push yourself beyond your limits. Whether you're an elite or everyday athlete, it can be hard to continually progress. How do you push yourself out of your comfort zone? Where do you go to find that inner drive?

Tune in to hear these inspiring stories and take away the belief that you can achieve your own goals, no matter how big or small. You can find us wherever you got this podcast. Just search Push Your Peak. What doubts do you have if you don't mind sharing for people that are listening i feel like it's so interesting because a lot of people might feel hesitant about the choice of whether they want to be child child free whether or not it is a choice at the end of these conversations is interesting but i feel like nobody really talks about it nobody really talks about the doubts and when they try to it's always dismissed as oh you'll change your mind or oh you you will change your mind so what

what what are the hesitancies so the main one is I mean I'm just gonna be really honest right now like am I too selfish to be a mum because I live this amazing lifestyle where I get to work for myself I get to travel I get to have this freedom I mean you know like you've you've had this incredible lifestyle where you work for yourself and you're creative and this that and the other and I just how do I then just put all of that on pause for a little while to for somebody else or something else so I think it's really hard when you when you really love your life when you really love your life it's really hard to imagine it changing and voluntarily changing it like I'm really enjoying my life right now would I want to like take this tiny human and put it into my life and let it

explode like a bomb and kind of like everything changes and of course it can change in the most beautiful magical ways but there's going to be some negative changes as well and it's like am I willing to do that especially now I'm aware of the challenges that come with motherhood and the inequalities that there are in motherhood like am I willing to go through those really difficult times that are inevitable and when you have a child so I think sometimes it's it's just a case of like maybe I just want to choose the path of least resistance not having a kid sounds like a lot less and not a lot less of like an absolute shit show at times so that's that's definitely one hesitation and also there's like so many things to think about when you have kids the financial obligations the costs of growing a human birth and a human raising a human like that's gigantic it's a decision which you can't

ever take back it's like the biggest decision you'll ever make in your life. Like once you've done it, you can't be like, oh, can I return this? What's the returns policy? Like you've got that for the next 18 years and then onwards. It's not a joke. It's not something to like take lightly. So I think that's why I'm so hesitant.

And then there's obviously like things around the state of the world, the state of the planet, the state of like the wars, everything that's going on in the world makes me just think what what is this existence that I'm bringing them into if I do have a kid so that was definitely a consideration I think if I'm really really honest a lot of it was me being selfish and worrying that I'm too selfish to to care for somebody else and put somebody else before myself for the long term, which I think is a natural doubt that so many people have when they have a career they live and the life they live to think, OK, I have to make some sacrifices here for somebody else. I wonder if there's also something in like aging as well, because, you know, it's like when I was saying when I was younger, I was like, when I'm older, I have kids. And then even at 34, when I got pregnant, I was like, yeah, but when I'm older and my friend Jackie was like when I'm older I have kids and then even at 34 when I got pregnant and I was like yeah but when I'm older and my friend Jackie was like you are older it's like how much how much older do you want to be and you know I guess yeah it's that thing of like do you ever feel ready I

know lots of people it you know lots of people do feel like it's their calling in life and they they say that they they know that motherhood was knocking from like the age of three but if you don't feel like that and you're kind of waiting for this future you to suddenly be like, oh, because everyone always says, oh, the clock starts ticking. And I know some of my friends said that they get to a certain age and suddenly they start thinking about it. But I was still kind of waiting for that like tick tock to arrive, so to speak. I sometimes just feel like I'm waiting for my career to really slow down and my career to fall off a cliff or something. And then I'm like, okay, then I'll be

ready. When you're really enjoying your career and you're enjoying what you're doing, I'm like, I don't want to press pause. How do you navigate as well, I suppose, the fear of regretting not having children with the fear of regretting having them? You know, there's this amazing article. It's called The Ghost Ship That Never Sailed. I definitely recommend people read it. This man writes in and he's, I think he's in his late thirties and he's asking this agony aunt, I'm not really sure if I want kids or not. What do you think? What do you think I should do? And she ultimately obviously puts the ball back in his court. It's his choice. But the way that she frames it is a really good way to think about it is in terms of regret. What would you regret more? Because right now it's really easy to think in the now and think like the immediate effects of having a child.

So it's like, OK, the next two, three, four years you're thinking about that. But then look, 10 years, look, 20 years down the line. What would you regret more? Having a kid or not having a kid kid and I feel like that's a really really really valuable way to think about it and it's a way that's like really helped me start coming towards a conclusion of what I want to do being like okay stop thinking about the here and now and the immediate implications on your life how would you feel in 10 15 20 years like how do I envisage my life when I'm 50 and what do I have to do now if I want to do that do you think like knowledge around our fertility would help us making decisions yes it was interesting because when I've spoken on social media about my debate of whether I wanted to

become a mother or not one message that I've had quite a lot was a lot of women saying I felt the same as you I didn't know if I wanted to have kids I didn't know if I like if motherhood was for me but then by the time I did decide I wanted to have kids I was 35 and I actually ended up spending a really long time trying to get pregnant and I just wish somebody had told me that it's much harder once you get past a certain age or it was for that then personally there's the potential for it to be harder as you get older and they just wish somebody had said that to them so that's something which I've taken on board because I always thought, well, I don't really need to make a decision because I can just have one when I'm like 39, 40. But I think that's a very naive perspective to have because fertility isn't something to take for

granted and you could struggle for years and years. It's really interesting, isn't it? Because I feel like I was almost on the other side of the coin that I was single for six years. And I felt this pressure of people saying things like, don't you want children? Don't you think it's time to settle down? And I was a bit like, with who? Because I also think having a baby with someone that I couldn't imagine. Thinking about some of like the absolute, sorry for my language, but the absolute fuckwits that I've dated in the past. I could not imagine being on this journey with them. And I honestly thank the universe every day that they gave me Tommy and it was him that I have a baby with. Because, you know, this idea that, well, don't you want children? It's like, well, it's a two way street. You have to find someone that makes you happy and that you're compatible with. But also they have to want it as well because otherwise that's obviously a bit

weird. And so I found that pressure of people saying, tick-tock, tick-tock, biology clock and fertility doesn't last forever. But it's like, so how can I do this? And I think once you get to a certain age, you're not offered IVF anymore as well, which seems bizarre because it's almost like it's on the woman when it's not. Fertility isn't always on the woman. A lot of the time, it's men who have fertility struggles. But it does seem a bit weird that it's almost like the race is on to find a partner that you're compatible with. And so I felt that I wish I understood fertility from the other side as well, because actually, apparently, they're like often cited statistic is that one in three women between 35 and 39 won't get pregnant even after a year of trying. Apparently, the source of that data is actually French births

between the year 2670 and 1830, which when you think that there was no electricity, antibiotics, no fertility treatments. So companies obviously profit from that baby panic and fear-mongering headlines, as we know about any topic, sell papers. I found it comforting to know that I've got statistics here. So in Britain, more than 2,000 babies a year are born to mothers over the age of 45. A Boston University study followed 2,820 women and found 78% of 35 to 40-year-olds got pregnant within a year compared with 84% of 20 to 34-year-olds. So it was only actually a 6% drop. However, I also speak to women who are sort of my kind of age now and going through fertility

struggles. A friend of mine, actually, they sold their house in London and moved back up north, but have just had twins, but they needed that money to pay for IVF. Anyway, amazing, happy ending that they managed to get twins. But I do wonder if we had more power and knowledge about our fertility, it would allow us to either wait

until we feel ready or to at least like in your case, where you're in a long-term relationship kind of be like well we need to decide what we want to do now as opposed to yeah like we have time and we might not no i think that's so valid and i think it's a conversation which should be opened up and i do think like it's opening up more online i do i don't know if i'm wrong but i feel like there's more people online talking about fertility talking about their journeys of becoming pregnant whether it was easy or not so easy. So hopefully,

I never used to see conversations like that happening five years ago when I was in the depths of like, what the hell am I going to do? So I feel like it is opening up more and more now. And I think the stigma of talking about losses as well is definitely opening up, which is amazing because I made a decision when I got pregnant to tell my closest friends and family before that 12-week barrier. A, because I literally get so excited about things that I can't keep secrets with friends and family. But also because I made that decision that if worst case scenario, something did happen, I was like, I don't want to have to go through that in secret. I would want my friends to know. So I made a decision that anyone I told I had to be comfortable potentially telling them it went wrong as well. But I was like, I can't go through that on my own. But the societal expectation that you should, that you should keep it a secret. Again, I think it's a deeply personal choice and not one that we should let society dictate.

a deeply personal choice and not one that we should let society dictate. How do you feel about the concept of women can have it all? Because that's something that I've struggled with when I've been looking into motherhood. I think there's this notion of like, you can have it all, like you can be this perfect mother, and this amazing businesswoman and this super social friend and have this epic fitness journey and run 10k on the weekend. And it's kind of marketed to us that we can have it all, but I don't know if that's really achievable. I think it's a real financial privilege to have it all, if I'm honest, because, so for example, in Sweden, they obviously pay very high taxes, but they get a lot back out of that system. And one of those things is 100 hours of free childcare a month.

So obviously, Swedish women probably can have it all because 100 hours, I mean, it's not a full working week, but it allows them to have that time where it's not putting financial pressure on them to be able to go back to work. Whereas women in the UK, 54,000 women a year have to quit their jobs, not because they necessarily want to, but because they cannot afford the cost of childcare, or they earn pretty much the same or maybe £20 a day more than the cost of childcare. So in those situations, obviously, women aren't able to have it all. So I think it very much depends on finances. And I think that's really sad, because obviously, surely it would make more sense for the economy for more people to be paying into it. But sadly, the government just don't see the value in making childcare affordable. fights for a lot of fraternity rights. She had thousands and thousands of women sign a signature

about making childcare affordable and the government have come back and said it's not a priority for them. But again, I think this also boils back down to the fact we need more women in politics because we need people to understand that it's not a woman's role to rear children. Society has to be fair. I think also in Sweden and some other European countries, there's shared parental leave. So you can split it. I think you get 18 months and you can split it however you want between the dad and the mom. So in my case, you're not dealing with resentment where Tommy's like, if you want me to quit my job, I'll quit my job because I don't get any more. I don't know what you want me to do. I don't get more paternity leave. So you're allowed to split it in a way that works for you.

But yeah, I think it is very privileged to say that women can have it all. I think I agree. Because I just don't think it's realistic for the vast majority of mothers, especially in the UK, to have it all when everything is so expensive and inaccessible. Do you feel like you've reached a decision on where you are at with whether or not you want to be a mum? I know that's a really personal question. So please don't feel the need to answer it yeah I think I pretty much have and I haven't said it online but I'm more than happy to say it but with the

disclaimer of like I could change my mind yeah I think I do want to have a kid which is exciting it's really exciting so exciting right but I feel like in a little while I'm 29 so I'm thinking when I'm like 33 34 35 I don't know but I feel like I got some bits and bobs to do first but the thing that is my focus now is making sure my boyfriend and I are having really open honest important conversations about how it's going to work because I don't want us to have a kid and then have different expectations of how we'd split parental tasks how weird what we would be doing or like I would like to get some support or child care fairly early on because he'd be going back after opportunity leave after two weeks etc so it's like me and him need to be having a lot of conversations so that we're best prepared for

the tornado that would be having a child so it's very exciting that I think we do want to have one it's really exciting because I didn't know I didn't know what conclusion you'd kind of drawn from it yeah it's really really crazy to think it and like even when I think about it I still shit my pants I'm like god terrifying terrifying notion to like raise a human being. But I do think the thing that kind of shifted it for me was realizing that like, I can't just keep choosing in life like the path, the path of least resistance. Like, sometimes you have to do hard things because they're really rewarding. So do the hard thing because there'll be some amazing rewards down the line. I think what's really interesting from speaking to you as well

is that if more people were felt able to have these conversations without being shamed or without being made to feel like they were selfish if they didn't want children or without being made to fear that they'd just be shut down like, oh, well, you won't experience love if you don't have children. I think it's allowed you to probably go into it with a more open mind but also like god i wish that i mean maybe a lot of people do have these conversations with partners beforehand and aren't just like really reckless like i am but i think being able to have these conversations of like how would it work if we were to have children because I don't know are other adults out there having these conversations because I feel like yeah why didn't we have these conversations before but I think it's because I genuinely

didn't know what to expect but I also had never thought of going and listening to motherhood podcasts I feel like because it just did not interest me you know motherhood felt like the other side I feel like because I've really done my due diligence on motherhood I am so aware so painfully aware of like what could potentially happen and the experiences that I could have that I'm like babe we need to have some conversations we like need to get ourselves really blooming solid because if we're going to do this it's going to be a wild ride and we need to like number one make sure that like we know how we're going to handle it I mean you can't really know until you know but try and get ourselves in a good place but also make sure our relationship is so strong and so stable and like in a really

really good place because I'm sure that it would test you like nothing else could ever test you really really good place because i'm sure that it would test you like nothing else could ever test you so yeah it's really really really exciting but also terrifying well i'm so it no i'm really excited and it's really nice to be able to speak to someone who has had these conversations and thoughts and hopefully it helps anyone else kind of like navigating that topic of whether to be child free or not obviously if it is a choice like don't don't be ashamed of number one questioning whether you want to do it or not and number two of changing your mind because I feel like I spoke quite openly online about the fact that I wasn't keen on having kids and then now that I'm like yeah I think I am like I'm 90% sure I can just imagine when I do start

talking about this online more openly people will be like but you said but you said that you were thinking of not having kids and I'm like guys my body my life like I can change my mind and there's no shame in questioning everything coming to different conclusions and eventually making a decision you know god yeah I always say this to Tommy as well because it's like I'm pretty sure 10 years ago I was a goth do you know what I mean like what I mean? We should be allowed to change our minds because we all go through some rather questionable phases in our life. And that is the beauty of life. And yeah, you do kind of find yourself on journeys that you maybe didn't expect to have. So I'm all for people changing their mind. I also just want to say every podcast episode, I read out a comment or voice note we've even had from one of the lovely listeners. And this one is from Liz Watt 86. She left a review on Apple Podcasts, which of course you are all able to do.

And she just said, I love this podcast. The topics of chat resonate so much with me as I've struggled with postnatal depression and anxiety. It's nice to know I'm not alone. You're amazing for doing these podcasts. So thank you. So I just want to say, if you think that somebody is dealing with the thoughts of whether or not to have children, and you think that they would benefit from listening to this podcast, then please share it with them. And if you enjoyed it, then don't forget that you can leave a review on Apple Podcasts, obviously a five-star rating helps, or you can get in touch on WhatsApp where you can send a voice message, which is free. And the number is 07599927537. And yeah, I hope that you enjoyed today's episode. I know it's a

bit of a different topic, but one that I feel like I really wanted to cover. And Zanna, thank you so much for coming on and being really open about your own thought processes because I know it will help so many people and I wish I'd had the opportunity to listen to it but obviously the choice was taken out of my hands but I'm really grateful to you thank you so much for having me on and I just yeah I just hope that this conversation empowers more women to realize that it is a choice and I also I will put a link to your blog post which is to baby or not to baby because you put loads of really good resources on there as well

so yeah thank you so much and I'll be back with another episode same time same place next week