Mum's The Word! The Parenting Podcast - Zoe Hardman and Georgia Dayton

Episode Date: November 8, 2021

Presenter and broadcaster Zoe Hardman joins us with her co-host Georgia Dayton of the Made by Mammas parenting podcast joins Ashley to chat all about giving mum's advice, dealing with loneliness and finding friends, as well as having a second baby this week on the Mum's the Word Podcast!If you have a parenting question you would like Ashley and her guest to discuss, get in touch at [e-mail]--- A Create Podcast Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

well hello so i'm actually really really excited to do this podcast because i wanted to talk about loneliness and also trying to make friends because i think i might have mentioned last time but alf is getting to the age now where he really really really wants to meet babies his age because i feel like babies that are younger than him, like my sisters, my lovely, lovely nephew Jasper, he just wants to pull their hair and bite and crawl around them and they get quite terrified. Whereas older kids who I've got a few friends with older babies,

they actually kind of just ignore him because he can't walk and just clings to them and they shrug him off. So I'm really trying to make it my mission to kind of like battle the loneliness that I'm feeling I don't know if you guys feel lonely or maybe if it's just because I've moved house or just because we're in the pandemic and I didn't get to do a lot of like the baby clubs or because I was so stubborn during my pregnancy that I refused to do any group pregnancy classes because I was like I don't want new mum friends I do not want mum

friends and it's so funny isn't it because I think making friends as an adult is quite tricky and from my experience of doing baby swim with Alf which by by the way, I absolutely love. It's quite hard not to just end up talking about your babies or comparing babies and like what they're doing. Cause I suppose that's like the icebreaker, isn't it? So I have actually had a little bit of a development in that I potentially do have a mum friend. I went to swim last week and um a few of us decided that we'd whatsapp each other and we went to soft play which by the way is hell hell on earth but Alf had a great time so I had to suck it up but um one of the mums we were like realized that we live quite near each other and we were like oh we should go for coffee long story short the coffee place was packed so she ended up coming to mine and we've been chatting and it feels nice like

she's just moved to the area um from southwest london and obviously i've moved from southwest london so there's already that kind of common ground um but it does feel i guess it's a bit like a date isn't it that is like you're trying not, you're trying to be like, is this going to be a friend? Are we friends? Are we not friends? Is it too soon? Is this the right person? So I'm just trying to go with the flow.

Also, like, I'm like, when should I text her again? Is tomorrow too soon to meet? too soon to meet. So I'm still trying to like figure out the making mum friends slash loneliness slash not wanting to hang out with people for the sake of hanging out with them. You know, I feel like having babies each other's ages are really great for the kids, but it doesn't necessarily, it's not enough to be friends. I'd actually love to know how you guys found it. Like, are you lonely? Did you have a period of being lonely? Did you find that actually you didn't feel a real need to hang out with mum friends? Or, you know, was it almost like having a job where you're like, I go to soft play or I go to baby swim or whatever it is and they're almost like my colleagues I speak to

them because they got like they've got babies and I've got a baby and then I go home and I put on my other head and I've got my my old friends or maybe you did feel the need maybe is it normal to feel like this kind of like loneliness or transitional period where obviously you're always going to love your old friends? But maybe, you know, if they don't have kids and they're out clubbing or, you know, doing all the things that you are unable to do at this moment in time. I don't know. I'd love to hear from you. I'd love to know what you guys are feeling and if you've managed to figure it out. And if you have made new friends, how? Tell me the story. Tell me how. And that is why I'm really excited to speak to my two guests today. I am so excited to talk to today's guests, mainly because they were the first people I spoke to on a podcast after the birth of Alf.

They are the founders of an incredible online platform. It's a blog. It's an Instagram. It's an amazing podcast of which I was a guest. It's called Made by Mamas. They share lots of nonjudgmental advice, tips and tricks, and their favorite products to make life easier for parents um it is the amazing Zoe Hardman and Georgia Dayton hi guys yay hello thanks for having us so excited to speak to you because I feel like when we recorded your podcast which was back very early February I was just on this like amazing high from birth

well actually not from birth from the newborn face you were brilliant because I think what we loved about you um and I speak for George on this one because I know we've had the conversations around it was your complete honesty the realness you could just feel it bubbling down the airwaves and you know you were great at sharing the highs and the lows and I think that that is something that we don't necessarily see online and you were also really great at celebrating all the all the great bits like yeah like yeah um actually I'm not having a shit time I'm actually really loving motherhood and I really love breastfeeding and it was just a joy wasn't it to hear it on the pod yeah it was and do you

remember we were talking about the just you wait mums yes saying that's that was the sort of that that's the time isn't it in that newborn phase where you might be enjoying it and if you say you're enjoying it someone automatically says well just you wait for this just you wait and you know they might be right but you don't want to hear it it's so funny isn't it because I talked a lot back then about the just you wait mums and also that unsolicited advice and now that alf's nine and a half months, I feel much less like triggered by that because I feel like I'm on my own journey. And also I can kind of get where the temptation to say those things comes from. Although I am still not a just you wait mom I would like no no way you you do find yourself trying or at least going to say it and then I think one thing that made by mamas has taught me um is that it's it's you don't have the right answer like we just because it's happening to you it doesn't necessarily mean it's happening to your friend or to your sister or you know to your brother-in-law or whatever and it's it's really

really hard I put something up the other day about Luna's early rising and someone sent me and it was it was a dad sent me a direct message to to my mailbox going the trick is right you need to put them to bed earlier and it was like don't you fucking think I've tried that I put them to bed earlier I put them to bed later I've given them snacks I've slept with them with socks on like it's like I've tried everything right like everyone seems to think that they have this will work and I think that's what's so scary about being open about the bad bits because you know like Alf was just not a sleeper but I wasn't and Tom wasn't and like you we've we've tried so many things and I almost think like should I share this part of the journey because I know that I'm gonna get every single

person's like tips and tricks but then I also like appreciate it comes from a really good place and it is amazing isn't it when people find a thing that works for them it is an amazing thing so yeah they just want to share it and I think it's different isn't it isn't it when like for instance because we've got the platform made by mamas people come to me and they're like my just my mates and they're like what did that sleep expert say about this and I think okay cool I can tell you now because you've actually come to me and you've said what did the sleep expert say about this but if they were just sort of saying to me oh you know the baby my baby's not sleeping blah blah blah I would be I would feel very

uncomfortable to just jump in and be like well we have this sleep expert on and she said this because I think unless somebody actually asks for advice or actually asks what you did they probably don't want to hear it yes that's so true george yeah and i think it's that thing of like you want people to know that you they can always come to you for advice but you don't want to be like not like a know-it-all but it's having that respect to let them grow in their own space in the same way that i suppose if you went on holiday you don't want to get told like every single thing that's good and bad before you go because actually you want to find out for yourself yeah you want to know where the good bars are and you want to know where the good restaurants are but you don't want

to know like you want to be able to discover stuff one person's version of a good night out could be an Irish pub and another person's idea of a good night out is like a five-star luxury seven course dinner yeah but as long as there's booze actually as long as they're serving booze Alison's idea of a good night out is like a five-star luxury seven-course dinner. Yeah, but as long as there's booze, Ashley, as long as they're serving booze there, I'm fine with that. Do you know what? That's so true, though, because you have mates who you would take advice from. Like, oh, they know their restaurants.

I'll take advice from them on restaurants. I'll take advice from them on clubs. I'll take advice from them on certain things. But you have other mates that you would just never take their advice on where to go on holiday because your idea of a holiday is completely different and I guess it's the same with parenting some people like are the routine mum and you might go to them if you know you are too and some are the like let's just go with it and then you might go to them if you if you feel're more like that. Back to parenthood, as much as I love the idea of going out, eating out. You're both mums as well. Zoe, you're a mum of two and a step-mum to Isla.

And Georgia, you're a mum of two. Have you found from your first to your second, did you find that that was like a kind of like eureka moment when you were like, wow, every child is so different. I thought I had this down with the first one and now I'm doing I'm trying to do the same implement the same things with the second and it's so different yes definitely I mean this this is what I find so fascinating there's so many books that tell you you know how you how you should get your child to sleep and how you should

you know how you should wean them and all of this kind of stuff and you then have you know you have a first you have your first child and you think right okay I think I think I've got a good like understanding of how this works and then you have your second child and they just do the opposite of what your first child did so you're relearning and but I do think when you have your second or more they're kind of because that comes like a level of acceptance so whereas before you'd be like oh my god the thing that I was doing doesn't work with this one I don't understand why you I feel like I wasn't like that I was just a little bit more like oh okay fine a little bit more relaxed um I sort of knew that you know for instance like if she didn't like

one milk, there's probably going to be another one that she would like. I think I had this sense with the second of it will all work out. And I think ultimately that makes you a little bit more relaxed. Yeah, I do. I definitely think it depends on the second, like your second child, because we, for example, had, you know, Luna, who didn't really have any kind of like, allergy issues or any sort of intolerances. And then Kit came along, who had the most severe reflux, and obviously has an egg allergy, had a dairy allergy. And suddenly, I was just faced with the complete unknown. And it was really, really overwhelming. So even though I kind of had my shit together in terms of like, okay, I've kept a baby alive. I know what I'm doing. I can kind of do that part of it. There was this whole other world, which really threw me. And what came with that, obviously the sleep deprivation, but with the reflux, I couldn't put him on his back. He wouldn't sleep in the car. He wouldn't even travel in the pram to the shops.

he wouldn't he wouldn't even travel in the pram to the shops so we'd step outside the house because he was on his back and the pain was so bad for him and I was having to take him to like you know cranial um we saw like a baby is it a craniologist I think that's that's what they're called um and you know obviously all the the allergy tests and then the weaning was so difficult it was I found it much much much harder the second time round because until Alison Scott Wright came along, I needed a specialist to get me over that real monumental moment where I thought I'm never going to sleep again. Kit's never going to sleep again. He was in so much pain.

So yeah, I found it really tricky second time round actually, whereas I thought it was going to be a breeze because I was like, oh, I've got this. Fine. I know how babies work. I feel like there'll be people listening who are going through that. I don't have that because I was like oh I've got this fine I know how babies work I feel like there'll be people listening who are going through that I don't have that because I mean I feel like I've only just come out of that that moment I mean I still feel like I'll never sleep again but I know that I will um but at what point for both of you did you feel like do you know what I do have this

I don't feel that now I don't feel that now. I don't feel that now. Do you not get it some days? Some days you think, actually, I get it on the days unless you're not here. I'm like, I've got this. This feels so nice. And in fact, actually, I was saying that to you earlier. I got to like January this year. Gigi hadn't really been in like a,

well, she hadn't been at nursery until then. She was about 18 months. And I thought, right, no, it's time and and then I think when they're at nursery or they're at school and you've got them out the door and you've got home and that's they're the times when I think right okay I've got this I've got this I know what I'm doing they're not here they're not here I just think anybody that says that they've completely got their shit together and they feel they've got this I think like celebrate it for the moment, but be prepared because, you know, sometimes it comes back. And I think parenting is such a, like a beautiful kind of like journey, journey, journey forward, you know, because it's always changing.

And one thing comes up with one child and then you've got an issue with someone else and then something else comes up. And one thing comes up with one child and then you've got an issue with someone else and then something else comes up. And it's like you have to be so adaptable and you have to be so fluid and actually never get complacent because it's kind of like it just changes so much constantly. Yeah, it's a beautiful mess, I would say. But it's so true actually though because we're all like we speak to each other every day and every day there is something that's come up like Axel and Luna at school and I think so many people especially when you've got a younger child think right as soon as they go to school that's when you know I'm going to get my time and it's going to be fine but actually school raises so many challenges and then you know they go to senior school and you have a teenager and that comes with a whole like a whole different type of challenge um so I think they're

just out to test us there's always going to be yeah you know what it's actually really I'm absorbing this information and I'm actually taking it in because I feel like in my very like in a nutshell timeline of where I've been at with ALF I feel like the first childbirth horrible first four months bliss and I didn't feel that kind of stress or anxiety in the first childbirth, horrible. First four months, bliss. And I didn't feel that kind of stress or anxiety in the first trimester. And I think even when I spoke to you guys, I felt like, wow, I'm healed from my anxiety. Like this is the best thing ever. And then I got to four months and I was like, okay, I'm a bit bored now. And also what do I do to entertain this baby?

And then my anxiety started to creep back in. And then I think around seven months I started to really like struggle with my mental health and even like think that I might have made a terrible mistake by becoming a mother which I know is awful because obviously it goes without saying that I love Alf to death and then now that he's like nine months I have to say nine months was a very emotional milestone to think like oh my god he's been out of me now for longer than he was in me and I felt like almost like giving him to the world but then at the moment I'm going through these phases a bit like a roller coaster where I'm like oh my god I don't I feel like I don't have any mental health problems

anymore I'm nailing this this is great and then literally an hour later being like oh god no I do maybe I need to take medication this is awful so I think you're right it's such a good reminder that it is a beautiful mess like of course like it's human emotion like it comes at you whether you're a parent or not like there are going to be immense highs and immense lows and also you're not going to know everything like they change all the time yeah and also I think we expect so much of ourselves and we expect so much of our kids and you've got two different energies you've got your own energy which is definitely going to fluctuate depending on what's going on in your life and your mood will change your your your levels of like tolerance will change you know the love doesn't change but

the sort of feelings around parenthood will change and flow and then you've got this tiny little little thing, which doesn't really have any control over their emotion. And like, I look at my relationship with Luna some days and some days it's absolutely beautiful. Some days we work in harmony with each other. And then other days I'm like, wow, you are the biggest head fuck. And I am being the biggest head fuck to you because I'm bringing all of my shit into our relationship. And like, it's very, when you're so in love with somebody and you're so intertwined emotionally, it's quite hard to separate your own stuff with their stuff. And we're supposed to always be the constant. And that's really, that's a lot of pressure because we're not going to be the constant. We're also going to have really terrible days. Yeah. Actually, it's really interesting what

you say about, you know, you really, up until four, you're just loving it and you felt like you were nailing it. It was just so enjoyable because we've often, you know, we've spoken to people who really dislike the newborn stage and then they sort of find their feet a little bit later on. But I think ultimately it sometimes comes down to like a mum's or a parent's identity. So you said at like seven months, you started to feel like a little bit bored and a little bit like, how, you know, what am I supposed to do here? And I think Zoe and I both, you know, agree on this, that it's that time when you suddenly, you haven't got a newborn anymore. So you're not like the newborn mum that can be like, oh, I haven't got dressed today. But you know, in your head, that's fine. It doesn't matter. And I haven't been out and I

haven't done all of this. I don't feel myself myself but that's fine because I've got a newborn it's that bit where you're suddenly supposed to be you again but you also have a like a very young baby and that's the really difficult part isn't it because like should I be working should I be going back to work should I be feeling like myself again you know know, where is myself? Where is my pre-baby self? And we've always struggled with that bit. That suddenly where you feel like you might have lost your identity slightly. And when that comes up, yeah, when that comes up, that can be really difficult. Yeah, and I think exactly what you were saying, you know, it's that realization that, number one, you get no days off.

You know, it's not like a job where you're like, oh, thank God for the weekend. I can get to recharge. And it's like that realization that there get no days off you know it's not like it's not like a job where you're like oh thank god for the weekend I can get to recharge and it's like really like that realization that there's no days off I think also that it's other people's sort of like perception like you don't get you like you said you know you don't get away with it being the newborn bubble anymore people kind of expect you to oh when you're going to come out when you're going to see us or even in a work front like when you're going to be back and ready and I started to even overthink I think because of a lot of my own prejudices against what being a mum was you know I would always be like oh I don't want to be like one of those mums or you know I saw like I don't know I just saw like motherhood is like something quite negative and mums are something quite negative which is obviously like really

cringe and embarrassing that I say that now so I think it's overcoming a lot of my own limiting beliefs and so I have these moments where I really overthink like is Alf on my Instagram too much am I going to lose work because people just see me as a mum but obviously I've still got the same like skills and abilities and talents and I still want to work as hard and my career is still the focus but then I look online and be like but it looks like I'm just a mum and then I have to be like but we're never just mums anyway like even if we choose not to go back to our careers we are still more than just mums so I think I'm just battling and I'm still battling with that kind of sense of identity of not just how I see myself but of also how I worry about how other people see me

because I want to be more than a mom. Actually, I think that is so normal. I think that is so common. Well, I know it's so common because the amount of people that have said that to us over the years and what Georgia and I went through is exactly that. And you're trying to do the best job that you're doing but you're also trying to figure out who this person is now when you look in the mirror and like what what does what does Ashley with a baby want and what does she love and what does she need and what does she what's she passionate about and you know I think both Georgia and I are still going through that stuff now um and I think that's absolutely fine and then there's also that feeling I don't know if you feel that of like there's an element of a tiny bit of being you know at nine months of kind of separating slightly from Alf and kind of you know that that's also

obviously you're super intertwined and all of that but like he's probably getting a little bit more independent you know you need to be a little maybe want to be a little bit more independent but don't know how to like there's a lot going on at nine months. I think that's a big milestone. Yeah, no, I would just agree. Like at nine months or a year, we've said it's kind of that time where you think you should be a certain way. And you have this realization that you're not the same person anymore as you was before. And you're just trying to figure out who you are and who you want to be going forward and how it's all going to work. I know yeah I mean I know with me when I went back to work after having Axel I wanted to be exactly the same way as I was before I just wanted to do what I want you know I did before I wanted

to just be seen as the same person rather than be seen as the person who just got you know who just got back from maternity leave and it would almost like get my back up a bit like I'd missed so much and I'd be like well it's only been a year what is fine you know um but I think second time around after I had Gigi I almost I was a little bit more at peace with who I was now yeah and I and I accepted it and actually like you say Ashley maybe you know in my head being mumsy and being a mum had sort of negative connotations but you know after I sort of grown to love myself as a mum and you know I'd had had my second I thought you know what I don't care actually I don't care if someone sees me as a boring mum so what like that Like, if I'm happy in myself and I'm happy just doing, you know,

just going to the gym, going to play dates, all of that for a little while, then so be it. I'll just lap it up because, you know, in a couple of months' time, I might not feel like that. And I think it's just finding that, I guess, finding where you feel at peace. Yeah. Hello and welcome to A to Z of Men, a brand new podcast that helps explain, well, men. Each week, myself, Chris Brooks.

And me, Scott Robinson. We take on a different letter of the alphabet. What? In order? alphabet what in order yeah in order we will find a word that best describes men that starts with that letter so it's basically like a guide like a guide yeah that's correct this will really help me explain myself to the wife we tackle topics such as mental health stereotypes and stupid things us men do don't forget sex oh and sex so join us each wednesday as we create the a to z of men you can find us wherever you get your podcast from including apple podcast spotify and a cast just search for a to z of men

and did you guys feel like a sense of i want want to say loneliness, like, because a lot of my friends don't have children and obviously I love them to death and we'll always be in each other's lives. But obviously I can't do the things that I was doing at the moment in my life. And also I might not want to go back to doing a lot of the things that, you know, we used to do together. that, you know, we used to do together. And, but then I think maybe because I've moved, maybe because it's been a pandemic, I still feel like I haven't really met like my people in the mum space. I mean, I, you know, I've started to make friends and going to things like baby swim, of course helps, which I couldn't do at the beginning with lockdown. But I know that you guys met when you were pregnant. So do you want to talk a bit like about how you became friends and how you met other people and how you kind of got over that loneliness of your old

friendships and then forming new friendships? George, we just recorded a podcast. George, what was one of the things that I just said on the podcast? I'm lonely. Yes, Zoe said, I'm lonely. I feel like I don't see anybody. I feel like I just, you know, I just provide childcare and I just work and that's all I do. And I think it can be such a lonely place sometimes, especially, you know, like, so you've just moved, haven't you? So maybe where you used to have a friend that you just be able to go and have a coffee with, you don't have that anymore. And I think it's really difficult. be able to go and have a coffee with you don't you don't have that anymore and it's I think it's really difficult I'd say I mean I had to see Zoe and I had each other for the first year and that was like the best thing yeah like if we hadn't had each other I really don't know what we like well I don't know what I would have done if we didn't have each other we literally saw each other every day when you're pregnant is that right yeah we met in a coffee shop in Cheltenham so Georgia was um living in Cheltenham because James her husband had signed um for a football team locally

um I was living in Cheltenham because my husband Dozza had signed to Gloucester and we were both pregnant from London I didn't really know what Cheltenham was all about and we met in a coffee shop I looked at George she looked at me and it was like the most beautiful um first tinder date that I've ever had and before I knew it was swapping numbers and we had casual sex at night and it was great um we swapped numbers I was like shall we shall we shall we be mates let's hang out and she was like absolutely I don't know anyone here and that is basically it and I remember the first text message that I got from George which was I just got engaged and Georgia sent me a message and it was the Christmas time and she was like congratulations I saw your

news do you fancy meeting up with the with the babies and at this point Axel and Luna were three months and three months and three weeks old and we met up in Montpellier went for a walk in the park in Cheltenham with a coffee and it was like soulmates I mean we were just so lucky to have each other wasn't it I know and I think as well because we both moved from London we both left our old lives in London and we'd moved to this new place I guess we we both understood what each other did you know before for work um and we kind of had that common interest but we also found like we loved going to the gym and there was so much that we liked doing aside, like, you know, not just talking about our babies, which was so lovely. And we did.

I mean, we did talk about Exxon Luna like a lot, probably 90% of the time, didn't we? But we knew we still had that other, we had that hour when we put them in the creche. It would just be the two of us. We'd work out. We'd laugh. It was just, yeah, it was invaluable, it was invaluable actually it was yeah it was perfect and like I used to show Georgia videos of like my mates in Ibiza at DC 10 like you know dancing with the lasers and I used to we used to sit in the park I'd be like my mates are in Ibiza they're dancing Georgia would be

like I get it I get it mate and I'd be like I can miss it I want to I want to be dancing in Ibiza but I'm here attempting to breastfeed in a freezing cold park in February and it was like it was yeah going back to your original comment about kind of grieving your old life and making new connections you know had I not had George it would have been a very different experience and George has just said the same thing like we always say that you only ever need one soulmate and you're set but so do you know what you taught me from that experience because I think I had my dog with me and I think Isla was with you. And Isla was obviously that kind of broke the ice because Isla was looking at Rufus and that kind of sort of started our conversation. But you did teach me, you know, like you just have to put yourself out there sometimes.

So if you do see another mum in a coffee shop what's the worst that can happen if you smile and you start a conversation and then after you've had a conversation say oh you know I don't you know I don't really know anyone around here or I don't have many other mum mates can we exchange numbers the worst that can happen is that they say no and then you don't want to be their mate anyway but that's the worst thing that can happen and I mean it's not probably not going to happen so I think sometimes you just have to like I guess take your brave pills and just think other people feel the same like we all feel lonely we all want to chat to other mums or other dads or whatever and it is just about reaching out the perfect icebreaker is like oh how old's yours it is interesting though because obviously I'm going to um like baby swim at the moment and

I'm thinking about maybe joining some other clubs because like Zoe I've just moved to a new area and I do feel very lonely and I am still kind of mourning my old life and what all my friends are up to but equally knowing that I can't do that or don't necessarily want to do that either um and it's hard because I feel like I don't want to just talk about the babies and also I feel like sometimes if I say I'm lonely online there'll be like lots of people who obviously really kindly are like oh we should meet up and then I'm like oh god but I would hate I it's like it's like I guess it's like dating or like friendships it's not having a child is not enough of a thing is it to be friends so it's trying to find like your people in the midst yeah totally

but peanut's a really good app for that actually peanut and mush is it mush mums or mush mums yeah peanuts incredible isn't it because you can kind of say like oh I like fashion I like fitness I'm into food whatever and then it matches you based I mean it does match you slightly on the ages of your kids but the main thing is is the person like they're matching you as people rather than as parents um and so that's true I know loads of people who have met like best mates on there yes yeah me too it's lovely isn't it and you can kind of put your interests in and stuff you should do that that's really good advice because actually I used peanut for a little bit in my pregnancy and I had to delete it because I found it a little bit but I think because I don't worry much about things which is ironic given that I have anxiety but in my pregnancy you know I wasn't worrying about a lot I was just enjoying it and

when I went on there and it was like oh my god my baby hasn't been for 10 minutes has anyone else and I just found it a little bit like stressful whereas now I'm in a different phase maybe yeah it is a really good place to connect and even what you were saying Georgia that they connect you with people who have children your age I actually do think that's so important because alph's really enthusiastic to meet people now but anyone that's a bit younger than him he scares the life out of and like pulls them and pokes them and the mums are obviously naturally a bit like can you get that demon child away from mine whereas like the older kids don't really care about him so he's trying to like grab their leg as they're running off and they're like oh baby go away yeah it is quite important to find someone that's kind of in that same space as him also that I really like yeah you've got to

check peanut out for sure definitely or just just chat in coffee shops or wherever you are like just if you see Ashley James somewhere in Essex wandering just chat in coffee shops or wherever you are. Like just... If you see Ashley James somewhere in Essex, wandering around people in coffee shops, okay, she's really, really nice. So give her your number. She's not trying to pick you up. Actually, are you in Essex now? I didn't know that.

Yeah, you could be. I'm in Essex. There you go. I'm an Essex girl. I might find you in a coffee shop. Imagine if there's like a thread on peanut being like, is anyone being stalked by this really annoying person in a coffee shop with the over-eager child that pulls hair?

But do you know what though? I feel like that's what you've got to do. Like if you're in a coffee shop and someone, you know, looks like they're struggling or looks like really friendly, you just got to reach out and try. One thing I actually do want to ask you guys is um having a second child already at nine months people are starting to ask me do I want another when am I going to have another and to be honest I feel like I've barely gotten over number one I've barely gotten over the idea of like having to go through all of that again like pregnancy childbirth

um even though I did really enjoy my pregnancy but number two like he still feels so little and I also don't really like planning anything in life including the birth of my child so how what what at what stage did you guys start to feel like, oh, I would really love another? Or did you always want another? And how did you kind of like bat off the intrusive questions? I mean, George didn't want, George, you didn't even want it a second. Let's be honest about it.

No, I didn't. I was with George when she basically, I'll let Georgia tell the story, but she tipped up to a recording and I took one look at her and I went, oh my God, why are you gray? And she was like, oh,

cheers. And I was like, no, not your hair. Your face just looks like really sort of gray and a bit off color. And I was like, oh my God, it was really witchy.

Wasn't it? I was like, you're pregnant. She was like, shut up, shut up, shut up. And I was like,

we need to go and do a pregnancy test. So we basically scuttled off to super drug. And we went into a random restaurant. Byron Burger. Byron Burger in Holborn. And we were like, oh, excuse me, can we use your loo, please? And in my head, I was thinking, is this where we're going to find out that Georgia's having a second child in fucking Byron Burger in Holborn? But then we went downstairs to the loo.

Georgia went into the loo and I was like, have you done it? Have you done it? And she was like, I've done it. I've done it. And she came back out and then we waited downstairs and they were all like the kitchen staff was sort of looking at us like, who are these two weirdos? Anyway, she pulls it out from her sleeve and she bloody held it up the wrong way and it said, null and void. And I was like, oh my God, we'll have to go back. I mean, the whole thing was a nightmare. You were like, oh, you're not pregnant. You just look really shit.

No, she was. I went home like straight after that I think so you had a radio show I was we probably would have sat and done another one and I found out I was pregnant and it it wasn't planned and I think I was quite open at the time saying I didn't want to have another child like I'm one of one don't have any siblings I didn't understand. I think I used to say sensible people have one child and things like that. Why on earth would you want more? I think so many people used to use that phrase, one is fun, two's a zoo. And that just stuck in my mind. And I thought, why would I want to have another child when I'm finding this quite chaotic as it is? So then to have another one

and to make make even more chaos why would I choose to do that but um it happened and my husband always wanted to have more he's one of four and it did take me a little while um to get my head around it um that I was gonna have another one and I worried about how you know Axel would feel and also just how I would feel I like my own space and my own time and I already felt like I didn't have enough of that um but actually Gigi has been amazing and it's just been so lovely um to I mean for Axel and for all of us to to have each other um and I understand the sibling dynamic and how special it is. But I mean, it's difficult, isn't it? Because I probably would have been happy with one as well.

And if I hadn't have had a second, I would have never have known how that felt. But I would say, not like if you're on the fence, then definitely do it. But yeah, I think if you're on the fence, I don it but yeah I think if you're on the fence I don't think you're ever going to regret having another child you're only going to regret did you find when you said when you said that you found it hard to find your own time did you find when um Gigi came along you were like oh now I'm back in that first place that I was at the first or or did were you more like this is amazing I get to enjoy this now yeah I did I mean Axel the timing was actually really good so Axel started preschool when Gigi was like six

weeks old and he went five days a week to preschool um so I already had kind of decided that's what I was going to do so that I would have one-on-one time with Gigi and I wouldn't feel like stressed out at the time my husband was playing football so it wasn't like he could take time off or anything like that. It was just, I knew it was going to be down to me to be at home. So I guess I'd put that in place so that I would have time with her. And she actually ended up being such a good baby. And in some ways I look back and I think, gosh, was that just meant to be so that I didn't you know what it can be like when you're sleep deprived and you say things that you don't mean in the middle of the night and I think had she have been an awful sleeper and you know I'd have felt completely wiped out would I have resented my husband maybe would I have made those like unfair comments to

him about having another child I probably would have but actually she was really good and I and I think maybe that was meant to be that she was really good so that I could enjoy it um and just take the time with her and realize that it was definitely like the right thing to do yeah or maybe you grew as a person so much that you realize that actually it just because you have something in your childhood doesn't mean that it's the right thing to do like we're so programmed aren't we from our childhood and you know I'm one of two and I was like I want to have two kids but actually I've got three because I've got an amazing stepdaughter as well and if you told me that I was going to have three children I've known Arla since she was 12 months old and our house is carnage but it's beautiful carnage and it's brilliant and it's madness but I would never have seen myself with

three kids because of what I experienced but the relationship between the kids is like god it's magic what about you Zoe did you always know that you wanted another no we just got really really really drunk at DC 10 in Ibiza and had a quickie when we got home that night when we were on our in our wedding and then got back two weeks later and was like this hangover from Ibiza is not going away and then I was like oh shit I'm pregnant um yeah we because of my fertility problems and because of my you know I knew that I was sort of soon to be heading into sort of perimenopause I knew we had to hurry up so you know we we Luna was I think 10 months old when I was pregnant with Kit but it was the best thing ever and I'm so grateful. Yeah, I was just going to say, I don't think there's a time, like, you know, people are like, what's the perfect age gap?

And like Zoe and I will both say there isn't one because there's always going to be challenges. What's the age gap between Luna and Kit and Axel and Gigi? Luna and Kit are 19 months apart. 18 months, 19 months apart, yeah. Yeah, and Axel and Gigi almost three years. Yeah, I think the thing is, because people have already started asking me, like, you know, Alf wasn't planned, nothing. And my life is quite, like, spontaneous.

And, you know, even the idea of, like, routine, although Alf has found his own routine, but the idea of routine actually, like, really stresses me out. has found his own routine but the idea of routine actually like really stresses me out and so when people ask me about kids and then obviously the idea of age gaps come up I'm like oh my god am I gonna have to start planning this or thinking about this but actually it's quite nice to think that you know it is like I mean like you said if if I only ever have one then that's a beautiful amazing thing and I love after death and I'll never, I'll never regret it, you know, just being him. But then if it were to happen, then I guess you just leave it up to fate and tell people to stop asking questions that are none of their business. Oh my God, you should do that anyway, regardless if there's ever a, if there's ever a question that someone's asked you that you're not comfortable with. I just,

I just, I always take kind of pleasure in sort of saying like, yeah, do you know what? I don't want to answer that. Or I'm not comfortable answering that. Or you can't ask that question. I'm quite happy to call people out on it. I'm like, I don't feel, I don't feel comfortable with that. And I think, you know what? Sometimes people need to be told because for so long, like there's that typical kind of like family sketch that we've all seen on a comedy show where like, you know, uncle Dave comes over and says something like, oh, why haven't you had a baby yet and you're like well you don't know what what's going on in my life and actually uncle Dave needs to be told to sit down in the corner and shut up exactly it's actually it can be so triggering can't it for people to constantly ask someone when when you

gonna have another baby when you're gonna have another baby because you have no idea what's going on like in that person's life um and also I mean I used to just say I don to have another baby? When are you going to have another baby? Because you have no idea what's going on like in that person's life. And also, I mean, I used to just say, I don't want another baby. And that would be that and I'd just shut them down. But it was like when I was single and it would constantly be like, when are you going to settle down? And I was like, oh, let me just get the dream man I've been keeping in my closet out now that I'm ready as if it was my choice just to to like meet someone and I was like and also it's so annoying that I felt like I was like thriving for the last few of my single years and I was like why can't you just be happy with where I am now like why are you I can't plan these things so I guess it's like pretty similar like people basically are just like constantly nosy

but also people's opinions shouldn't matter that much and I think that's something that hopefully motherhood's definitely taught me is that I spent such a long time during my twenties being so affected by what other people were saying and other people's opinions and other people making decisions on my career and my body and X, Y, and Z. And now I'm like, I don't hear any of the chatter. And I think we said this the other day, didn't we, George, that the minute you stop worrying about what anybody else is thinking, and especially going into parenting, because everybody will have an opinion the happier you will be yeah absolutely I couldn't say that any better do you know it's so interesting because I feel like I got really good at not

caring or worrying about people's opinions and since I don't know whether it's lockdown or just like rocky mental health as a new mum but I do find myself worrying but I think it is part of what we've talked about kind of because I'm so fragile in knowing my own identity and where I am now as like a new mum and you know kind of like finding my feet with it all I think I am much more perceptive to other people's opinions at the moment um but it is a very good reminder um girls I know that you're obviously very busy I'm so so grateful that you chatted to me and I've loved it getting to speak about loneliness and making friends having more than one but um every week I get someone a question from whether it's social media or the email which

is askmumsthewordpod at gmail.com and this week's actually from lucy and she said i hope you're well i'm the first out of my group of friends to have a little one which is really exciting but also scary and isolating i'm able to reach out to my mum and dad for advice but obviously a lot has changed since they were parents where would you suggest i go or reach out in order to talk to other mums how funny is that that i didn't even plan this show and we've actually all been discussing that. Yeah, that's amazing. Just to recap, it's Peanut.

And what was the other app you mentioned? Mush, Mush Mums. Mush Mums and also local coffee shops. Absolutely. I feel like we need to give some icebreakers for mums going into coffee shops so that they uh like what what are some good remember what your opening liners were with each other um I don't know what the opening line was like you've got you've got a cute dog

so yours was I'm pregnant too oh yeah yeah yeah I was like are you pregnant she was like yeah I was like I'm pregnant too don't tell anyone I would never have said that to a stranger but then but then I think I was like are you all right and you you're like and I was like you like you all right I was like so we basically got to it really really quickly um which is quite funny but how about things like oh it's fucking it's fucking hard isn't it no how about things like have you showered today that's a good one I always think a compliment going with a compliment that's like the best way to like your coat conversation yeah love your coat oh love your trainers what coffee have you gone for that looks like a great choice do you miss

your old life too so much better than mine which would be, I'm so lonely and I've just moved here. Please be my friend. Guys, thank you so much for coming on. I've loved chatting. And Georgia, I'm actually going to find out whereabouts in Essex you live. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Let's definitely talk. Thank you so much, everyone, for listening to Ashley James' First Time Mum, the parenting podcast. Don't forget to hit the subscribe or follow buttons so that you never miss an episode.

And if you're listening on Apple Podcasts, then, podcast then of course if you love it leave a five-star rating and also if you leave um a comment then i can always read it out in the next podcast so um yeah i'll be back next week with another episode same time same place thanks girls thank Thanks, girls. Thankread has workouts you can work in. Or bring your classes with you for outdoor runs, walks, and hikes led by expert instructors on the Peloton app. Call yourself a runner. Peloton All Access Membership Separate. Learn more at onepeloton.ca slash running.