Murder 101 - Nuisance

Episode Date: February 21, 2024

Alex continues to ask more questions to find out more about their interaction with the accused Jerry Johns and what exactly that day looked like.    Follow us on Instagram @kt_studiosSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Bring a little optimism into your life with The Bright Side, a new kind of daily podcast from Hello Sunshine, hosted by me, Danielle Robay, and me, Simone Boyce. Every weekday, we're bringing you conversations about culture, the latest trends, inspiration, and so much more. I am so excited about this podcast, The Bright Side. You guys are giving people a chance to shine a light on their lives, shine a light on a little advice that they want to share. Listen to The Bright Side on America's number one podcast network, iHeart. Open your free iHeart app and search The Bright Side.

I'm Johnny B. Goode, the host of the podcast, Creating a Con, the story of Bitcoin. This podcast dives deep into the story of Ray Trapani and his company, Centratech. I'll explore how 320-somethings

built a company out of lies, deceit, and greed. I've been saying since a very young age that I. Listen to Creating a Con, the story of Bitcoin, on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or whereverers in Hollywood are as old as the Hollywood sign itself. And while fame is the ultimate prize in Tinseltown, underneath it lies a shroud of mystery. Binge this season of Variety Confidential from Variety, Hollywood's number one entertainment news source and iHeart podcasts. Six episodes are waiting for you right now to dive into the secret history of the casting couch to explore the scandalous history of Hollywood's casting process. Listen to Variety Confidential on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. A group of high school students, high school students, Elizabethan high school students started a project to research a string of unsolved murders. Their research led to the identification of the killer. Investigators now have an answer to a 34-year-old question.

Once you start getting a few tips or a few leads or a few identifications, then the cold case isn't so cold anymore. There's a pretty good chance he's still alive. Everything that the students predicted through their profile turned out to be accurate. Redhead killer profile male Caucasian 5'9 to 6'2 180 to 270 pounds unstable home absent father and a domineering mother right-handed IQ above 100 most likely heterosexual. There is no profile of this killer except for the ones the students created. Just because some of these women no longer have people to speak for them does not mean that they deserve to not be spoken for.

What if this guy's still alive? Yeah. This is Murder 101, Season 1, Episode 7, Nuisance. I'm Jeff Shane, a television and podcast producer at KT Studios with Stephanie Lidecker, Courtney Armstrong, and Andrew Arno. Mr. Campbell was eager to contact surviving victim Linda to ask her more questions and find out about her interactions with Jerry Johns, the man who was allegedly the Bible Belt Strangler.

How did you pick the case? I mean, how in the world would you come up with? Well, the reason I was, I guess I was drawn was we were actually working. I was teaching sociology and we were working with a teacher who was down the hall and he is the criminal justice teacher. And so we decided to kind of team up and put our classes together. And we were trying to look at the only cold case murder in our county that was unsolved. And so it was a redheaded teenage girl. Was it Tina Farmer? Is that the one? It was not. So she's not related. You wouldn't know her name because she's not related. Oh, sorry. What? It's okay. She wasn't related to any of those cases. What we found out is that most of the police felt she was, they knew who had killed her. It was somebody here locally

that she knew. But whenever I was researching, you know, I was just going online and see what I could find about it. And because she was young and teenager and it was in the 80s and she had red hair, it started bringing up these things about these redhead murders. And, you know, I was born in 78. So I was growing up here in the 80s and I don't remember anything about it. So it just it kind of fascinated me that there were things happening in East Tennessee where I grew up and I had never heard about it. And then when I talked to people about it, they had never heard about it either. And so I guess what drew me to it was if I haven't heard about it and I live here and nobody else who lives here has heard about it, how are they ever, I mean, I kept reading the articles and TBI was like, you know, we hope to get more tips and we need the community to help us. But if nobody even

remembers it, they're not going to get any tips or help. So I think that's why the students wanted to look into it. And I was kind of interested in it, was because we wanted to bring attention to it so they could get some help, so people could call in tips or they could get some new leads. And actually, that's exactly what happened. That's how Tina Farmer was identified. And I guess that's the reason I was drawn to the case. This may come as a surprise. Jerry Johns was actually colorblind.

Well, that's what I'm saying. None of us had red hair you'd think of red hair. Mine had a red tint. If you got out in the sun, it'd look like, you know, like red highlights or something, but not red, just, you know, strawberry blonders. I don't know. Have you seen the pictures of me in the hospital afterwards? I have, yes.

So, I don't know. I haven't seen it since that day, but mean since the trial i guess but yeah that's that's what it looked to me it looked like a dark kind of auburn you know and i could i could tell it had that silence yeah i think it was it was but it wasn't i didn't intentionally get red is what i'm i just um it just had a red tint to it, and it was a different color than what I was born with. But what he said at the very last second, when I said, are you going to kill me? He said, yes. And that's when he said he didn't really mean like, oh, yes. I said, why?

He said, you're a nuisance. And that was it. It was important to understand how the abduction occurred and what Jerry Johns' behavior was like. So had he been, I guess when you first met him or throughout the night, was he like charming? Or what kind of person was he at first? He was just nice. And I was in a really, really, really bad mood. just nice and I was in a really, really, really bad mood. And I had this friend who had much looser morals than I did and would do just about anything. And she told me about these

guys with these hundred dollar bills and it's up for me, but you know, so I don't, I mean, I normally didn't do that. I mean, it, I don't think I've ever got left as a stranger ever before. But, you know, there were a couple guys that had paid me money, but never had I just left, you know, with someone like that. And even at the trial, they didn't believe that. But I remember one of my neighbors testified that I didn't even know he was going to be there. And they said, well, she's probably slept with him or something. And the judge said, she's prostitutes. She probably slept with all of them. Which is far from true. Of course,

I'd never slept with him. He was, I mean, not of course, but I guess he didn't, Jerry Johns didn't know that. He just assumed that since I agreed to meet him and stuff, that that's what kind of person I was. And I was no innocent. I mean, from everybody I've spoken to, Jerry Johns was a very, at times, I guess he was a very likable person. They said he made friends easily. He actually stole a lot of cars because people trusted him, even at like car lots, to take it for a test drive, and then he would just drive off with it. So I was just curious if you had seen him as, you know, a likable, kind of normal, jovial, you know, kind of person at first. Well, actually, when we went to Leeds, I don't know what happened to Shannon.

We had different cars, and I guess Jerry and his brother had different cars, and I followed Jerry Johnson to the hotel, and the entire way there, I was so scared. I wanted to turn off. I was so scared, and I was even praying because I didn't want to go. And then I kept thinking, I've got two halves of these $100 bills, and he'll kill me over them if I don't show up. And a thousand times I started to turn off and not follow him. But if I hadn't had those half $100 bills in my purse, I wouldn't have done.

But he was nice. He never said anything ugly. And when he pulled in and told me he was this, well, he pulled the gun on me and told me to get in my car. And he drove and told me he was a Texas Ranger and that he was looking for drugs. So he looked at my arms and he said, well, you're not a drug user, but you know people, I bet, that does drugs. So we're going to find Shannon. And then eventually he said, I'm going to drop you off here in these woods.

And he'd already tied my hands and stuff. And he said, I'm going to leave you here until I find her because I don't want you warning her or whatever so that she can help me find somebody that's selling drugs. Of course, I had no idea that a Texas Ranger couldn't arrest people here or whatever. I mean, I've never dealt with law before. So I just, you know, back then, policemen told you do something, you did it, you know. And that's honestly what I thought until the

very last minute I guess but he was real he never oh I didn't know what I was going to tell you when he was tying my hair you know tying my hands up he I said oh that's that hurts that's tough so he loosened it or something to keep from hurting me. Or I said something was uncomfortable. I'd have to stop and think about it. And whatever he had tied or moved, he loosened or put it in a different way so that I wouldn't be uncomfortable. And then my attorney, I can't even remember. Before the big trial, I guess, something happened, and my attorney said I needed to sue him,

even though he didn't have any money, would never have any money. And I can't remember right now why. And my attorney's dead also. But he said you just need to sue him so he'll be down on paper. If he ever does get anything, like a book deal or something, then, you know, you'll get your part. But when I went to sign the papers, it said that he had beaten me all around my face and stuff. I guess because, you know, he knew about the bruise.

I mean, I said bruise, and my eyes were bloodshot for months because of breaking the blood vessels. So I told him, I said, he didn't hit me ever. He was very nice to me, even, you know, made sure I was comfortable while I was being tied up. And he said, well, that's okay, because after you lost consciousness and he drug you in, put you in the culvert, I'm sure he hit and scratched you on the way or something like that. And so I was very, very timid and shy, and I just went ahead and signed it. So that part, he never hit me. He, like I said, you know, he wanted to make sure.

And he was nice. When we got there, he ordered a pizza. And I mean, I've never met him before. Yeah, he was just there. And he offered, he gave me two half hundred dollar bills and shannon two half hundred dollar bills and then he had a whole stack of hundreds and said there's more you know but by the time i got there and i was so scared that when it was over i just wanted to leave i didn't care if i got the other half in In fact, I didn't ask for them. I just wanted another.

And then he said he'd walk me to my car because it was dangerous. And that's when he, when we were outside in the car, oh, yeah, I know what I was going to tell you about the car. I had that, you know, that 280ZX, which was the, I mean, it wasn't brand new, but it had louvers and key tops. I mean, it was my sports car. Anyway, he said, what'd you give for this car? And I think it was like $15,000, I don't know. He said, I've got, you know, 57 cars, or however many, 12 cars, 18, I don't know what

the number was. And all of mine together don't come to that. It was like he was upset because I paid that much money. I guess he thought what I was doing to earn the money wasn't right, and I used it to buy a car that he couldn't afford or something. I guess that's the way it sounded to me.

So even like when he parked the car and you were walking off the side of the road, you felt like he was just going to leave you there, and you felt like he was still a police officer? Yeah, he said he was just going to leave me there. And it was a few miles down the road from the place where we were working. And he was going to go back and get Shannon and then come back and get me. But he couldn't have me in the car when he went to get her because I'd warned him. I don't know.

There were no cell phones or anything back then. but he was afraid I'd warn her or something. And so that's what he said he was going to do, just leave me there off the side road. And I climbed into a tree or something. I don't know. I can't remember exactly, but my hands were tied. but my hands were tied. Let's stop here for a break. We'll be back in a moment.

Bring a little optimism into your life with The Bright Side, a new kind of daily podcast from Hello Sunshine. Hosted by me, Danielle Robay. And me, Simone Boyce. Every weekday, we're bringing you conversations about culture, the latest trends, inspiration, and so much more. Thank you for taking the light, and you're going to shine it all over the world,

and it makes me really happy. I never imagined that I would get the chance to carry this honor and help be a part of this legacy. Listen to The Bright Side on America's number one podcast network, iHeart. Open your free iHeart app and search The Bright Side. My name is Johnny B. Goode, and I'm the host of the new podcast, Creating a Con, The Story of Bitcoin. Over this nine-part series, I'll explore the life and crimes of my best friend, Ray Trapani. I always wanted to be a criminal. If someone's like, oh, what's your best way of making

money? I'm like, oh, we should start some sort of scheme. You see, Ray has this unique ability to find loopholes and exploit them. They collected $30 million. There were headlines about it. His company, Centratech, was one of the hottest crypto startups in 2017. It was going to change the world. Until it didn't. I came into my office, opened my email, and the subject heading was FBI request. It was only a matter of time before the truth came out.

You can only fake it till you make it for so long before they find out that your Harvard degree is not so crimson. How could you sit there and do something that you know will objectively cause more harm in the world? Sit there and do something that you know will objectively cause more harm in the world. Listen to Creating a Con, the story of BitCon, on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Abusers in Hollywood are as old as the Hollywood sign itself. And while fame is the ultimate prize in Tinseltown, underneath it lies a shroud of mystery. is the ultimate prize in tinsel town underneath it lies a shroud of mystery binge this season of variety confidential from variety hollywood's number one entertainment news source and i heart podcasts six episodes are waiting for you right now to dive into what lies beneath the glitzy image of hollywood's golden age and all the sex money and murder that's been swept under the rug

for decades using the variety archives each episode offers a rare glimpse into little-known casting couch stories that have long lived in the shadows. So join us as we navigate the tangled web of Hollywood's secret history with host Tracy Patton, along with expert Variety reporters and correspondents as they discuss the secret history of the casting couch to explore the scandalous history of Hollywood's casting process. Listen to Variety Confidential on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Murder 101 Let me ask you this, like, when did you realize that you were unsafe?

You know, at what point did he say something or did something change that you realized, like, oh, my life's in danger? Yes, the very minute it happened. He actually held the gun on me. The very minute it happened, he held the gun on me. And he kept saying, if I tried to escape, if I tried to get out of the car and run, that he would shoot me and say that I tried to escape, which I believe they were worried of because he was this policeman, this man that, you know, Texas Ranger. And he was here to find somebody that was selling drugs and arrest them.

And he said if I ran that he'd shoot me in the back. And he said I tried to run. So that's why. And then when we stopped, he was driving slow along the interstate. And I think I might have asked him what he was doing or looking for. He said, I'm looking for a place where I can leave you until I go back and get your friend Shannon, and then I'll come back and get you. And I still thought, or maybe it was hopeful, that that's what he meant to do. And the first time he sounded mean or ugly was when I said, are you going to kill me?

And his whole demeanor, everything changed. He said, yes. And that's when I knew I was dead. And I said, why? And he said, you're a nuisance. And that was it. But that very last second was the only time I actually really knew that he was going to do anything to hurt me, I guess. And so that was after you'd already gotten out of the car

and walked over to the side of the road. That's when you asked him? Yeah, yeah. Oh, yeah, we were in the woods, you know, down there. He had, I guess, maybe I had had my feet tied or something. But whatever it was, he fixed it to where I could walk when we got out of the car. And then when we got down there,

like it was down a little bank and he was going to leave me there. I don't know if he said he was going to put me, I don't know how he said I was going to stay there, probably tied me to a tree or something. I don't know. But that's when he took the piece of the t-shirt he'd ripped into pieces to tie me up. So one of the pieces, maybe it was the

ones around my leg, I can't remember right now. He started wrapping it around his fingers. That's when I said, are you going to kill me? Because that's when I saw him wrapping that thing around his fingers. And for some reason, I knew he was going to strangle me. That is one thing I would like to ask about, because some of the other victims, even ones who had been dead for many years, I am finding online that there were ligatures made of cloth, you know, clothing, near those bodies. And I feel like that could actually be something that could help them determine if he was involved. Yes, there was another thing I meant to tell you. I'm interrupting you, but I'll forget if I don't say it.

The knot that he tied after he strangled me, the knot he tied was some sort of fancy knot that most people don't know. And I don't remember what kind, or I have no idea. But every woman, all these women, when people came from these different states, all these women had had been, the knot that was tied was exactly the same with whatever material was there. Somebody had tied that same exact knot. And that's one of the reasons they put the cases.

They thought they might you know people came up from mississippi or where all the different states that's what they were but then the judge that the media god bless me um kept talking about that you know every single day it was in the paper but the redhead murders, you know. But the judge said, made them stop it, and said nobody was allowed to mention or say anything about anything that would happen to me, because if they kept on, they would get off on a technicality, because it would paint the jury or something. That's why they all of a sudden weren't worried about, or just quit.

You know, it wasn't that they didn't find anything to tie them together. It's just that the judge made them quit. And then when they sentenced him, the judge looked and he said he never, ever wanted him to see the light of day again. And they gave him different sentences. It comes a hundred and some years or something, plus 30 days. And they said the 30 days added on there was what was going to keep him in jail for the rest of his life. And I didn't even have to be at the things where he goes and tries to get out on a parole board or whatever because he said there's no way they'd ever let him out. So I'd never even have to go there and testify or whatever.

I'm sorry. Can I ask you about the knot? So did he cut the shirt with a knife or did he rip it up? Like, how did he do that? He might have cut it with a knife, but he ripped it into, like, one or two-inch strips. like one or two inch strips. He ripped the shirt, the t-shirt I was wearing, he ripped it into these numerous strips.

I don't know if it's several. Could have been ten, could have been, I don't know. I can't remember. And he may have started out cutting them, but I know he ripped them, I think he just ripped them. Now, was that in the car or did he do that at the hotel? When did he do that? It was in the car, or did he do that at the hotel? When did he do that? It was in the car when we had gone back to catch one. And we were in the second parking lot.

There was a regular parking lot, and then there was like an overflow parking lot where big rigs could sit or if they had overflow, you know, too many people. But nobody was there. Ours was the only car, and my kid, he was driving. And he said that we'd gone back there to wait on shannon and that's when he tied me up and he told me to give me that he what he was going to do and everything that he did he ripped it up and and used it to tie my hands and feet and that was when i, you know, I just thought it was something that happened that he said, something that happened. Well, can I ask you about the shirt?

So were you wearing it and he made you take it off, or did he have it already? Yeah, it was a t-shirt. I was wearing a t-shirt. I was wearing jeans and a t-shirt and a black leather coat. And I'm assuming a bra. I don't know. But he took my t-shirt off. But I'm pretty sure, I must have had a shirt under it or something. Or a bra. And I know I had the black jacket saved my life. How was that?

A corner of that jacket got stuck underneath the stripy tie around my life. How was that? A corner of that jacket got stuck underneath the stripping tied around my neck. And when I woke, got conscious again, I pulled and it came out and it still wasn't enough room for me to breathe, but it was enough for me to start using my fingers and picking at it. And I thought, sure, he was just watching me to not watch me suffer but I still kept pulling and pulling and and I felt around and I was in that covert and I was I thought I was blind for life but and deformed because my eyes were on my on my face you know like and it didn't matter I wanted to live so I blind climbed up the hill. I could still, you know, I had to find, I felt it. And I staggered onto the highway, and the truck that stopped almost ran over me.

And I had broken my hands apart, I think. I had, at the very top of the hill, I had finally gotten the thing around my neck broke. And I was fixing to lose consciousness again and somehow I got out there well then I had these I had blood start just pouring out of my nose when the when I got breath and so here I've got these two strings tied around my hands dripping blood and so they thought I was shooting up drugs to put the the guys in the truck that almost ran over me I staggered out in front of them covered in blood and like I tied up my you know they tied their arm to shoot up and so they thought they were afraid I was going to die

in the truck so there was an older one and a younger one and I could hear them saying, nope, we keep putting her in the truck, she'll die in the truck and they're in a company truck. And then they had called, I guess on the CB thing. Sometimes I'd think, oh God, these are the people that's going to kill me. Because I remember Jerry Johns had this brother, so I didn't know how many of they were, you know. And so I started to take off running or something. Even when the policeman put me in the back of his car to take to the hospital, he was afraid to wait on the ambulance, so I died before it got there. So I was screaming, don't kill me, don't kill me.

He's going to kill my friend, you know. And they brought that out in trial because I'd say he or them because sometimes I'd say he or them, because sometimes I'd be talking about he, Jerry Johnson, was going to kill her, or them, Jerry Johnson, the brother, was going to kill him. So they acted like I was just making stuff up, saying he or them. At the time, I had no idea. I hadn't seen the brother since we'd left, and we all ended up at the hotel.

And the brother went to his room. And then I never did see Shannon. But I sent the police. The minute that's all I could talk about is the hospital was, go get Shannon, go get Shannon. You know, he's going to kill her. He's going to kill her. And so they went and got her. Let's stop here for another quick break. We're bringing you conversations about culture, the latest trends, inspiration, and so much more. Thank you for taking the light and you're going to shine it all over the world. And it makes me really happy.

I never imagined that I would get the chance to carry this honor and help be a part of this legacy. Listen to The Bright Side on America's number one podcast network, iHeart. Open your free iHeart app and search The Bright Side. My name is Johnny B. Good, and I'm the host of the new podcast, Creating a Con, the story of Bitcoin. Over this nine-part series, I'll explore the life and crimes of my best friend, Ray Trapani. I always wanted to be a criminal. If someone's like, oh, what's your best way of making money? I'm like, oh, we should start some sort of scheme. You see, Ray has this unique ability to find loopholes and exploit them.

They collected $30 million. There were headlines about it. His company, Centratech, was one of the hottest crypto startups in 2017. It was going to change the world. Until it didn't. I came into my office, opened my email, and the subject heading was FBI request. It was only a matter of time before the truth came out. You can only fake it till you make it for so long before they find out that your Harvard degree is not so crimson. How could you sit there and do something that you know will objectively cause more harm in the world? more harm in the world.

Listen to Creating a Con, the story of BitCon, on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Abusers in Hollywood are as old as the Hollywood sign itself. And while fame is the ultimate prize in Tinseltown,

underneath it lies a shroud of mystery. Binge this season of Variety Confidential from Variety, Hollywood's number one entertainment news source and iHeart podcasts. Six episodes are waiting for you right now

to dive into what lies beneath the glitzy image of Hollywood's golden age and all the sex, money, and murder that's been swept under the rug for decades. Using the Variety archives,

each episode offers a rare glimpse into little-known casting couch stories that have long lived in the shadows. So join us as we navigate the tangled web of Hollywood's secret history with host Tracy Patton, along with expert Variety reporters and

correspondents as they discuss the secret history of the casting couch to explore the scandalous history of Hollywood's casting process. Listen to Variety Confidential on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Murder 101. You know, I was just sitting here and it just blew me away. You were talking about the corner of the collar of that jacket.

Like it saved your life. That's amazing, you know. That's why you're still here is that collar of that jacket. God put that there. Yeah. There is no doubt in my mind. I don't want to tell a psychiatrist and I quit going because he told me that God didn't work that way. Well, God does work that way. He gets your

attention. And I knew what I was doing was horrible. And he definitely got my attention. But you know, without that, that's what you feel like allowed you to survive that. And, you know, because of that, you were able to, you know, get, he was able to become arrested and like you saved a lot of people, just that corner of that collar. The newspaper and stuff were calling me a hero because they said I acted bad. I played bad, but that's not true. I wanted to die so bad that I just collapsed because I wanted to die. I wanted to hurry and die. I don't know what I, so I just collapsed like I was already dead.

But then I lost consciousness. Well, I must have had a little bit of consciousness because I remember hearing leaves rustling. But I never could figure it out until, I guess, until all was said and done. And I realized that he had drugged me, because I had to take the homicide people back there and show them the culvert. And, of course, there was blood on the culvert, so they knew what was happening.

But that's amazing about the corner of that collar. That's just awesome. Yeah, yeah. The men's got some of the stuff completely wrong so you know like i said they weren't redheaded burgers they were like when you had i thought well you should have been around and named it the bible belt murders back then and the set of the media named them the redheaded murders. That's something interesting that my students decided was that, I mean, if you look online, there's a lot of people,

victims from the late 70s up to the early 90s, and they're all grouped together as what they call these redhead murders, but obviously they're not all related. Some of them are very different. A woman was taken from her home, a small little boy. So they're not related, obviously. And so the students wanted to separate all these, you know, quote, redhead murders into maybe people who could be linked to one person who did it, because there's

really no way to talk about, you know, the people who are related to one person because they just lumped all these people together. And so that's why they wanted to give him a name. And when they had the meeting with all these people from different states, and it wasn't just the Bible Belt. There were states around the, I think it's mostly southern, you know, and southwest and southeast. But there might have been some in vienna too i can't remember but there there were like 52 girls or something that they questioned me about 52 different women that had been killed i think seems that or there was a lot of them but some of them like i said had were that they were

they were either prostitutes or homeless. They had no family around. You know, nobody's going to miss them right away. They had the exact same knot tied. They were found off major interstates. And see, I wish that Larry Johnson was alive because he'd remember all this stuff. Or somebody, I don't know anybody that's still alive that was back then, but there were so many similarities that not. I mean, yeah, he didn't take them from their home with their little boy or whatever.

There's more than the six or 11 or whatever. There were more women that had the real similarities to what I've been through than what's on that list. And I don't know how I could get a list of those people. Well, I'll share with you. We have spoken to a TBI agent who was part of this. He had done some investigations. investigations and he told us that we would never know the true number because he said sometimes he would get a call by a coroner and he would travel to another state or another county and they would show him a body and he'd say, now we called you because we think this might be

related to your case. And so he would look at the body, but then they would have, you know, the coroner's results and it would say, the autopsy results and it would say drug overdose. And he would say, well, why did you call me on a drug overdose? You know, I'm investigating murders. And they said, well, it's obvious she was strangled. But because we found signs that she was using drugs, we didn't want to waste a lot of time on this case. So we just labeled it as an overdose. so we just labeled it as an overdose.

So he told me that we would never be able to find those because they're not even listed as murders. Yeah, I'm sure they'll never find them. I'm sure they've never found all the bodies because I wasn't the first one, that's for sure. He knew what he was doing. Can I ask you what made you think that he knew what he was doing or he'd done it before well i didn't think any of that of course at first but everything was worked out so perfectly you know he he knew where to park my car in the corner of that parking lot and he um

he knew to walk me to my car and he he stole my car and they said he had numerous other he had a briefcase with him they had dozens of uh stolen titles i guess the cars because he had a lot of stolen cars and um you know they took me down to the culvert where evidently he had done a lot of women that way yeah so like his story like him being a police officer you feel like he had done a lot of women that way. Yeah. So like his story, like him being a police officer, you feel like he had done that before and he was very convincing? Oh, yeah. I mean, I believed every word of it. He looked at my arms to see if I had any marks on them.

And where would you look for drugs more than, you know, a place like that? I mean, you know, I thought it was a Texas Ranger. I mean, I honestly did. He acted like it. And I don't know when I saw his gun. It seemed like I saw it, and he said this because he was a Texas Ranger. I mean, like I said, I didn't know Texas Rangers weren't allowed to practice anywhere but Texas, you know. Can I ask you a question about the knots?

Did he seem like he had tied those knots before? Did he have any trouble? Did he know exactly what he was doing? No, I had no idea. I beg your pardon? I mean about him. When he was tying the knots in your shirt and things, did it seem like he knew exactly what he was doing, like he'd practiced or he'd done that before?

When he tore up my shirt, he did, because I thought, who would have even thought to take my T-shirt off and rip it up to tie me up with? That just dumbfounded me, because who would have thought that? And he didn't tie me, well, I don't know if he did or not. He had to have tied some sort of knot so it wouldn't get loose. But at the time, I didn't know any difference. A knot was a knot.

I mean, they said it was some sort of special knot. But you learn, I don't know, in the service or something. Well, I have some pictures of that. They actually preserve those in the case file in Nashville. So I have pictures of those that I've looked at and they're I don't I can't say they're complicated. I don't know enough about knots, but there's there's a lot of knots like tied on top of knots with that. And so I'm trying to find somebody who's an expert with knots to to say, is that is there a certain name to that type of knot or is there a place where you learn it? So we're trying to look into that. Yeah, well, I don't – I know, that's why I wish that I had – they told me that.

Of course I didn't know anything about knots, but they're the ones that told me. And they said it was like, okay, if you're standing behind me and you strangle someone, If you're standing behind me and you strangle someone, and they, it would, I can't remember, say it's on the left side, they were even in the same position, I guess, on the women. You know, like, when you finish doing your dishes, you always put your sponge a certain place. You know, I mean, I guess is how I thought about it, whatever. And I can't remember all the other similarities, but there were other similarities. I mean, most of the women I think were about my height, and they weren't saying people, you know. Nobody would be looking for them for a while. Well, just going back to something that you said that they showed you lots of different pictures of women.

And, I mean, did you feel like he had it in him to kill a lot of other people? Absolutely. I knew without a doubt he killed other people. I mean, the minute he said yes. And then he just, you know, when he took me down the hill, he pulled the gun on me. Like when we were walking down or while we were there is when he pulled the gun on me. And I screamed. And he told me to shut up or he'd shoot me.

And I shut up. To this day, I'm not sure how, but I did. I mean, there's no doubt in my mind that he killed lots of women now well like she will never know how many and I hope for their family's sake we can find some of them but and give them well closure what you know whatever but I know he's just in fact and all these years I wanted to go and look at him and say, why? Why? You know, but I never could.

More on that next time. Murder 101 is executive produced by Stephanie Lidecker, Alex Campbell, Courtney Armstrong, Andrew Arnault, and me, Jeff Shane. Additional producing by Connor Powell and Gabriel Castillo. Editing by Jeff Twa and Davey Cooperwasser. Music by Vanacore Music. Murder 101 is a production of iHeartRadio and KT Studios. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts,

or wherever you listen to your favorite shows. Danielle Robay and me, Simone Boyce. Every weekday, we're bringing you conversations about culture, the latest trends, inspiration, and so much more. I am so excited about this podcast, The Bright Side. You guys are giving people a chance to shine a light on their lives, shine a light on a little advice that they want to share. Listen to The Bright Side on America's number one podcast network, iHeart. Open your free iHeart app and search The Bright Side. I'm Johnny B. Good, the host of the podcast Creating a Con, the story of Bitcoin. This podcast dives deep into the story

of Ray Trapani and his company, Centratech. I'll explore how 320-somethings built a company out of lies, deceit, and greed. I've been saying since a very young age that I was going to be a millionaire. If someone's like, oh, what's your best way of making money? I'm like, oh, we should start some sort of scheme. Listen to Creating a Con, the story of Bitcoin on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Abusers in Hollywood are as old as the Hollywood sign itself. And while fame is the ultimate prize in Tinseltown, underneath it lies a shroud of mystery. Binge this season of Variety Confidential from Variety, Hollywood's number one entertainment news source and iHeart podcasts. Six episodes are waiting for you right now to dive into the secret history of the casting couch to explore

the scandalous history of Hollywood's casting process. Listen to Variety Confidential on the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.