Murder 101 - Tying it All Together

Episode Date: February 14, 2024

Alex finds and connects with the hero of the story.    Follow us on Instagram @kt_studiosSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Bring a little optimism into your life with The Bright Side, a new kind of daily podcast from Hello Sunshine, hosted by me, Danielle Robay, and me, Simone Boyce. Every weekday, we're bringing you conversations about culture, the latest trends, inspiration, and so much more. I am so excited about this podcast, The Bright Side. You guys are giving people a chance to shine a light on their lives, shine a light on a little advice that they want to share. Listen to The Bright Side on America's number one podcast network, iHeart. Open your free iHeart app and search The Bright Side.

I'm Johnny B. Goode, the host of the podcast, Creating a Con, the story of Bitcoin. This podcast dives deep into the story of Ray Trapani and his company, Centratech. I'll explore how 320-somethings

built a company out of lies, deceit, and greed. I've been saying since a very young age that I. Listen to Creating a Con, the story of Bitcoin, on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or whereverers in Hollywood are as old as the Hollywood sign itself. And while fame is the ultimate prize in Tinseltown, underneath it lies a shroud of mystery. Binge this season of Variety Confidential from Variety, Hollywood's number one entertainment news source and iHeart podcasts. Six episodes are waiting for you right now to dive into the secret history of the casting couch to explore the scandalous history of Hollywood's casting process. Listen to Variety Confidential on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. A group of high school students, high school students, Elizabethan high school students started a project to research a string of unsolved murders. Their research led to the identification of the killer. Investigators now have an answer to a 34-year-old question.

Once you start getting a few tips or a few leads or a few identifications, then the cold case isn't so cold anymore. There's a pretty good chance he's still alive. Everything that the students predicted through their profile turned out to be accurate. Redhead Killer Profile Male Caucasian 5'9-6'2 180-270 pounds Unstable home Absent father and a domineering mother Right handed IQ above 100 Most likely heterosexual There is no profile of this killer except for the ones the students created. Just because some of these women no longer have people to speak for them

does not mean that they deserve to not be spoken for. What if this guy's still alive? Like, what if he comes after us? I said, are you going to kill me? And he said, yes. This is Murder 101, Season 1, Episode 6, Tying It All Together. I'm Jeff Shane, a television and podcast producer at KT Studios with Stephanie Lidecker, Courtney Armstrong, and Andrew Arno. Mr. Campbell and his students were confident that Jerry Johns, surviving victim, held the clues to the mystery.

Mr. Campbell called me with an exciting update. You're not going to believe what I just found. It almost sounds like a country song. The woman I've been looking for for five years, and I just found her. Who? So the hero of our story is Linda. She was the lady who Jerry Johns attempted to kill. I mean, as far as i understand it she she stopped breathing

but she was dead and then she spontaneously revived on the side of the road and because she was immediately able to go and get help and tell the police where he was and the car he was driving and all that he was arrested and put in prison for 40 years and of course that's where he died and so without her and her will to live, none of this would have been possible. So for example, the only way they've been able to relay him back to any of these other cases is because his DNA was found on Tina Farmer. The only reason they had his DNA in the system is because he went to prison on a felony charge for trying to kill her. And she fits very much into the victim profile, correct?

Oh, yeah. She's redheaded. She's white. She's small. She's the right age. She was like early, mid-20s. Her will to live, you know, and her tenacity is the reason why he's been able to be tied to all these murders. And I have looked for her for a long time, different ways, you know, social media and

different type of research places. But finally, I was able to get on one of the research sites online, kind of ancestry research sites, and combine that with some information I found in the case file that is public knowledge because, you know, they took that case to trial. We were able to piece it together and I found her. Wow. And have you made contact yet? other and I've found her. Wow. And have you made contact yet? No, it's kind of like the dog who chased the car and, uh, you know, caught it like, wow, now that you know how to contact this person, like, what do you say? You know, obviously she was, you know, working at a gentleman's club and, and she was in a tough situation, recently divorced, had a small child and, you know,

she's trying to make ends meet. Of course, worst night of her life, I'm sure, almost dies, you know, meets a serial killer and survives. So, you know, on one hand, you probably think she's worked really hard to not ruin that and move on from it. But on the other hand, I think, does she even know like what she means to this case, to all these women, to their families? She probably doesn't, you know, because this, the point is, nobody's paying attention to this case. Nobody's putting all these things together, and I don't even know if she realizes that the guy who almost killed her has been linked to this other murderer, and, you know, we feel there's plenty of evidence that links him to several more. So I don't even know if she knows that.

And, you know, but I think she deserves to know that without her, you know, none of this work would have been possible. And then I pulled some pictures off her Facebook and it's her. I mean, it's just her. It's her. So what do you think? What should we do about this? I mean, you don't want to bring up the worst part of somebody's life and make them relive it. But on the other hand, I've done a lot of work with people who have lost children and stuff. And I've talked to people who've been through some terrible things like that.

And what they say is like, you not bring it up isn't like I forgot it. Just because you didn't bring up my son didn't mean I forgot that one of my sons has passed. So, I mean, by not bringing it up, I don't know if, you know, like, oh, she had forgotten it until I brought it up. I don't think that's the case. Does she want to relive it? Maybe not. But does she know, like, what her strength has been able to do for this case? You know, does she even know that she was like, she was his last victim? And because she was able to survive it, you know, her bravery and her courage and her strength, like allowed, you know, other families to know what happened to their loved one. And I think everybody deserves to know that, don't you? about her bravery and you know we'll figure out how to be respectful but I agree I mean I think it's definitely worth a phone call to give her the option and just to introduce you know yourself and

like you said she might not know any of this which is you know wild to think about but certainly something she should be aware of yes I agree with that give her the information and let her decide and but her story is it an amazing story. Like I have the picture that they took of her at the hospital and what she looked like. And I'm going through the hospital report and she was blind for three days because he had choked her so badly. You know, she was put on a liquid diet for weeks. She couldn't even chew or swallow solid food. And like what she went through to, you know, to survive that and then have the bravery, of course, to carry on with the police and help make that case against him and all that. she did that and she was part of putting him away and then that led to you know the students work and and new breaks in the case and if it wasn't meant for the dna in that previous case and another thing i didn't even mention this but in that case file of course jerry leon johns uses her own t-shirt

cuts it into strips and binds her with it and eventually that's how he chokes her a ligature made from her own t-shirt and then you know you know, you start looking at the Tina Farmer case. She was choked with a ligature made from her t-shirt. And then you look at the Tracy Sue Walker case. They find cloth ligature with a similar knot in it beside her body, even though she'd probably been dead for maybe as long as four or five years. And then now there's other Jane Does, like the DeSoto County Jane Doe, which also was found with a ligature. And, you know, if we couldn't have had that evidence, and like we have, we still have those same ligatures down here in the National Archives, excuse me, in the State Archives. And we've got pictures of those.

And because of that, we can compare those to the others used in different crimes and link him back to those, even if we don't have DNA. So she's the linchpin in the case. I mean, I don't know if she realizes, you know, she's the hero of this story, and her bravery, like, is what set all this stuff in motion, and even though that was, like, 35 years ago. And I'll see if I can get up the nerve to call Linda and see how she feels about that.

Let's stop here for a break. We'll be back in a moment. Bring a little optimism into your life with The Bright Side, a new kind of daily podcast from Hello Sunshine, hosted by me, Danielle Robay. And me, Simone Boyce. Every weekday, we're bringing you conversations about culture, the latest trends, inspiration, and so much more. Thank you for taking the light, and you're going to shine it all over the world,

and it makes me really happy. I never imagined that I would get the chance to carry this honor and help be a part of this legacy. Listen to The Bright Side on America's number one podcast network, iHeart. Open your free iHeart app and search The Bright Side. My name is Johnny B. Good, and I'm the host of the new podcast, Creating a Con, the story of Bitcoin. Over this nine-part series, I'll explore the life and crimes of my best friend, Ray Trapani. I always wanted to be a criminal. If someone's like, oh, what's your best way of

making money? I'm like, oh, we should start some sort of scheme. You see, Ray has this unique ability to find loopholes and exploit them. They collected $30 million. There were headlines about it. His company, Centratech, was one of the hottest crypto startups in 2017. It was going to change the world. Until it didn't. I came into my office, opened my email, and the subject heading was FBI request.

It was only a matter of time before the truth came out. You can only fake it till you make it for so long before they find out that your Harvard degree is not so crimson. How could you sit there and do something that you know will objectively cause more harm in the world? How could you sit there and do something that you know will objectively cause more harm in the world? Listen to Creating a Con, the story of Bitcoin, on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. I used to have so many men. How this beguiling woman in her 50s. She looked like a million bucks. With zero qualifications.

She had a Harvard plaque. Tricks her way past a wall of lawyers and agents. She's got all of these Maseratis and Bentleys all in the driveway. Is it like a mansion? Yes, it's a mansion. That this queen of the con uses to scam some of the biggest names in professional sports out of untold fortunes. About $6 million. Approximately $11 million.

Nearly $10 million was all gone. Employing whatever means necessary to bleed her victims dry. She would probably have sex with one of her clients. Hide your money in your old rich man, because she is on the prowl. Listen to Queen of the Con, Season 5, The Athlete Whisperer, on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Murder 101. Later, Mr. Campbell dialed Linda's number.

Hello? Is this Linda? Yes. Yeah, my name is Alex Campbell, and I'm a schoolteacher from down in East Tennessee. And actually, one of the things I do is I let my students work on cold cases. Hold on a minute. Okay, you what? Yeah, I'm a schoolteacher in East Tennessee, high school teacher.

And one of the things I do is I let my students work on cold cases as part of our studies. And I think your name might have come up in connection with a case in Knoxville in 1985. Is that you? Yeah. Where do you teach? So I teach at Elizabethton High School. After switching her call to a landline for better service, Mr. Campbell conveyed just how important she was to the club's investigation.

Yeah, I promise that I will keep this however you want it to be kept. If you want me to just keep it between me and you, that'll be how we'll do it. And really, it's just, I'm sorry, go ahead. I just went through, they put me through so much. I want to be honest with you. We have really been looking for a long time to find you, my students and I, because I don't know if you realize it, but you, and I'm really emotional about it, it seems kind of funny, but I think you've really helped save and help a lot of people through what you were able to do.

Well, that's the only reason I was able to do it, was knowing that, and I'm sure I saved women's lives. I mean, there's no reason for me to be alive except the good Lord let me live. Mr. Campbell filled Linda in on the work of the 2018 class and the work that Riley and Marlee were currently doing. She was able to provide some interesting information. What I wanted to tell you,

I didn't know if you kept up with what had happened recently, but did you know that they had tied Jerry Johns to a murder of another lady? Yeah, and she looked very similar to me. Somebody called me, an FBI agent called me a couple years ago and told me, I didn't even know Jerry Johns had died, but he called me and told me that they used DNA and proved that he killed this other girl. They questioned me when it happened. Well, you know, after it happened, there were dozens of girls that looked a lot like me, you know, and they called them the redheaded murderers. And then the judge told them they weren't allowed to mention the redheaded murder anymore because it would

method k the album take could be mine you know that that's not going to try and i'm sorry so anyway i knew that there were a lot of the women that had died in them and he said there was a lady that they found their body after it happened and i can't there were ag or TV,

whoever these people are from all over, you know, all over the country, came together and met with me about, and there were women that, or cases that were similar. In fact, the knot that he tied evidently was some sort of, you have to be a,

I mean, it's a special knot like you learn to tie. And evidently, each one that had that same tie, sorry, it's hard to start. And that's, and, oh, God, anyway. But he had, his logbook, they said, made it look like he was different places and he couldn't have killed those other women. See, he had a brother, too. Yeah, Wayne. Wayne. He went by the name Wayne. That was his middle name.

Yeah, well, he was with him. But now this FBI, TBI, whoever he was, talked to me last, said they're pretty sure he knew nothing about it, even though they were together, you know, traveling together. So I don't know if they, I mean, I don't know if they've done DNA testing on these other women or not, but there were a whole bunch of them that they questioned me about. And we sat at this big, huge, long table, and there were photographs of all these women, and some of them looked like photographs of me. Wow. Well, one of the reasons I was trying to find you is that it seems like now there's a chance where he can be tied to maybe several of these murders, and these families can figure out, you know, who's responsible,

and they can get some closure. And the truth is, it's been decades. If it doesn't happen now, a lot of the agents and everything have already retired or passed on. The evidence has been lost. Yeah, I think the one that took care of me, he died. Johnson, Larry Johnson. The name's familiar. Is that the policeman?

He was a TBI agent, and he did a lot of work on the case, but maybe that was after, you know, maybe the fact. So I'm not really sure, but anyway, I've spoken with him. But what I wanted to say was, and it's so funny, this might seem weird to you, but, but like I've poured my life into this for five years trying to prove that he is responsible for many other people suffering and their families and just trying to get them some closure. And it seems like we're really close. Like I could tell you a lot of things, but what I really wanted to tell you was that this is a terrible, it's a terrible, tragic story for a lot of people and a lot of families.

But if there's a hero, it's you. And, like, your will to live, you know, is what got him arrested and kept him off the streets. And the DNA, you know, that they took from him once he was put in prison is what can help maybe some of these families. It's already helped some, but it can help the rest of these families figure out what happened, who was responsible, and let them move on. And so anyway, it's just a real pleasure to talk to you. And you're such a strong lady, you know, and this might seem weird too, but for five years I've had your picture from your hospital report on my computer. And every morning I see it, and it reminds me I've got to keep working to try to help these other families get some justice. And your story is amazing, and you're the strongest woman I believe I've ever known.

Oh, my gosh. No, not true. But at the time, my husband's alive. And I never told him what happened. And he's gone now. I'm sorry. It's easier for me to talk about it. My students and I are getting ready to present a case about the girl who was just identified.

She was found very near Tina Farmer in Campbell County. And this girl disappeared from a town just right over from her. And yet they were found here eight hours drive away right beside of each other. So we feel that he's probably connected to that one. Tina Farmer was pregnant and her baby died with her. And we think there was another murder. I don't know if you remember that one. It was in Greene County in 1985. They found her body right after your case. And so we think there's another victim in Greene County and probably others in Mississippi. And so my students are going to be presenting to the police in Mississippi and to the police in Indiana.

And they're trying to help them put it together because the TBI works cases in Tennessee, but they don't really share, you know, it's not really their jurisdiction to think about people in Mississippi. So there's nobody helping these police agencies kind of connect it. So when I call Mississippi, they didn't even know that there was somebody who was, you know, harming women, that everything matched, but it was just 30 minutes north in Tennessee, and they hadn't even heard of it, and they didn't know there was a suspect. I did talk to people in Mississippi and Alabama and numerous states, and like I said, UPI, PPIP, I mean, it was in every paper in the country. My daddy heard about it, and he lived in Chicago.

And he heard about it while I was in the hospital. So, I mean, he heard it on the news. What has happened is all those detectives have retired or died. And so they don't know anymore when I talked to Mississippi he said I inherited this case somebody else had it they retired I've got it and I don't know anything about it I wasn't even a police officer then so like we're trying to keep the attention on these cases because we are so close with just a few DNA tests I think a lot of these cases could be kind of finalized.

And I've talked to family members. I talked to Tina Farmer's sister, communicated with her niece yesterday and some different ones. And, you know, it's hard knowing that your loved one is gone. I mean, that doesn't change that. But, for example, I talked to a lady who was only like a year old when her mom went missing. And she said, you know, it's bad to know that your mom was murdered. But she said, I always thought my mom didn't come home because she didn't want me. And she said it was better to hear that she couldn't come home than she didn't want to come home.

And I know like it doesn't change the fact that the person's gone, but they still do want to know, like, why didn't their loved one come home and i know like it doesn't change the fact that the person's gone but they still do want to know like why didn't their loved one come home and so we're working really hard i know he had a wife he did he had a wife and i've and we've conversed with her and uh same thing she was just so shocked but have you you've talked to her well uh one of the guys who did the research for the podcast went down and spoke with her well she got divorced after but when she went during the trial she thought he was innocent i guess i mean i don't know yeah she she had no idea she the whole family he put on a show and the whole family thought he was the nicest guy but that's the way it is with people like this they they they're very good at

hiding themselves, but when that, and from what I understand of the case, I've read your case file, I mean, at first he seems like a really nice guy, but whenever he lets his true self out, it's just, it's, you know, it's monstrous. Well, one day I'll tell you, I'll tell you the whole, you know, right now I'm having trouble thinking, and I don't have time to think. I've got to get it together. When Riley heard about the call, she was unsurprisingly very happy with the development. I am just driving home from practice.

Had a very long day. It's Friday, thank goodness. I'm so excited for the weekend. Words can't even describe how excited I am. But this week was a really good week. It was very hectic, but we had a very good day, or a very good week, rather, working with our case study, our victim profiles. Also, our teacher, Mr. Campbell, he was able to talk us into s***

and get her perspective, which was, I mean, wow, that was just honestly amazing. It's a once-in-a-lifetime experience. I mean, she is really the only person that we know of that saw Jerry Leon John in that moment and survived to tell the tale, got to see him at his evil, showing his true colors, I guess is what I'm trying to say. She's the only person who saw who he truly was and lived to tell the tale he thought he killed her she saw firsthand how brutal and savage and truly evil he was and she can tell us about that I think that is just insane

she doesn't live around here anymore and I'm really excited to see where that leads us and the fact that she's open to working with us, talking to us about this, I think that is going to be an extreme game changer. And honestly, her coming forward and sharing her story, who knows? There could be other survivors we don't know about. Like we talked about previously, these women, they worked in trades that might have not been something they wanted people to know some of them were sex workers transient women um they would not have wanted to come forward maybe if they were if he they'd encountered him through you know getting hired for sex work different things like that but seeing Linda come forward and hearing her tell her tale, who knows? This might open the gate for so many other women who were like, yeah, I encountered this

man who drove a truck and he tried to rape me and kill me. Or he tried to kill me and strangle me. Like, we don't know what this could lead to. So I think that's awesome. Another thing that's really, this has been a big week, but something else that's been insanely awesome is we've got a knot expert to look at the different ligatures that were used on Linda. And Mr. Campbell is looking more into that to see if possibly he could go down to Nashville and take some better pictures of the knots. Because the knot expert told us he identified one or two of the knots and he said he needs to see them in more dimensions,

so he sees the backside of them, different things like that. I'm really excited to see what happens, if we can possibly identify any new or similar knots in the different ligatures of different victims. I think that would be really cool if we could make a connection and say, oh, you know, Tracy Sue Walker had this kind of knot in her ligature and Linda had the exact same kind of knot. Well, these kind of knots are commonly used with truck drivers. I just think that could tell us a lot about different cases. I mean, it's not an end-all, be-all, but it's just more evidence that makes this even more

convincing. It was great to see some of these things that we've been working towards and working for come to fruition and just get reassured by some people who have quite a bit more experience than us. But yeah, I'm very excited to see what the future holds and what else we can find out. Let's stop here for another quick break. you conversations about culture, the latest trends, inspiration, and so much more. Thank you for taking the light and you're going to shine it all over the world. And it makes me really happy. I never imagined that I would get the chance to carry this honor and help be a part of this legacy. Listen to The Bright Side on America's number one podcast network, iHeart. Open your free iHeart app and search The Bright Side. My name is Johnny B. Goode, and I'm the host of the new podcast, Creating a Con, the story of Bitcoin. Over this nine-part series, I'll explore the life and crimes of my best friend,

Ray Trapani. I always wanted to be a criminal. If someone's like, oh, what's your best way of making money? I'm like, oh, we should start some sort of scheme. You see, Ray has this unique ability to find loopholes and exploit them. They collected $30 million. There were headlines about it. His company, Centratech, was one of the hottest crypto startups in 2017. It was going to change the world. Until it didn't. I came into my office, opened my email, and the subject heading was FBI request. It was only a matter of time before the truth came out.

You can only fake it till you make it for so long before they find out that your Harvard degree is not so crimson. How could you sit there and do something that you know will objectively cause more harm in the world? Listen to Creating a Con, the story of Bitcoin, on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Abusers in Hollywood are as old as the Hollywood sign itself. And while fame is the ultimate prize

in Tinseltown, underneath it lies a shroud of mystery. Binge this season of Variety Confidential from Variety, Hollywood's number one entertainment news source and iHeart podcasts. Six episodes are waiting for you right now to dive into what lies beneath the glitzy image of Hollywood's golden age and all the sex, money and murder that's been swept under the rug for decades. Using the Variety archives,

each episode offers a rare glimpse into little-known casting couch stories that have long lived in the shadows. So join us as we navigate the tangled web of Hollywood's secret history with host Tracy Patton, along with expert Variety reporters and correspondents as they discuss the secret

history of the casting couch to explore the scandalous history of Hollywood's casting process. Listen to Variety Confidential on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Murder 101. In the hopes of tying everything together, the club spoke to world-renowned knot expert, Lindsay Philpott. One of the things you said was on the picture I sent you of the ligature,

you said you could maybe make out what that knot was. You think that's a granny knot? I believe so, yes. So that appears to be a granny knot? 29 shows it most clearly. Yeah, yeah. So how sure are you? Like, are you 100% appears to be a granny knot? 29 shows it most clearly. Yeah, yeah. So how sure are you? Like, are you 100% sure that's what that is?

Yes. Okay. And so you say that's a relatively easy knot for people to tie or learn how to tie? It's very easy because you just do the same thing twice. When you're making a granny knot, you either tie left over right and tuck it under and then do that again, or you tuck right under left and do it again. Now, I know you said it's pretty easy to tie, a lot of people know how to tie it, but are there any applications or jobs where people tie it a lot, for example? There are a number of places where non-knot tires tie a lot of the same thing. Because as the old saying goes, if you can't tie the right knot, tie lots. Yeah. So people tend to repeat something if they think that it's working.

Have you ever seen the show Survivor? Yes, it's been a while. And in that, they generally have a number of knots that are used to hold things like bags or keys or something like that, that people then have to undo. And in fact, what most of those are, are overhand knots and half hitches. Let me ask you this question. So I can see that there's hair wrapped up in this knot. Is this a good knot to tie if you're going to strangle somebody?

Because it doesn't cinch up, does it? It does cinch up and it jams. Okay, what does jam mean? It means it can't be undone easily. Oh, so this would be a good knot for people to tie if you were trying to strangle somebody. Well, it is and it isn't. You know, depending on how well you want the knot to hold, then a jamming knot is a good knot to have. However, if you want to be able to undo it again, then a jamming knot is not a good knot to have. Now, in this

case, I'm assuming that there would be a need for having some sort of knot that jammed. Does that mean that the person that tied it knew that before they tied it no not necessarily anyway okay so i actually interviewed the lady who this this was used on and uh he just left it on her body and uh when she came to she said she had a hard time getting it undone does that sound like it would it fits with yeah that's it fits? Yeah, that's absolutely consistent. And one that's tied as tightly as that is, it's extremely likely that it would be very difficult to undo unless you had a stick or a screwdriver or some other metal implement that you could actually use to insert into the knot and then be able to lever it open.

But basically, if I ever come across a knot that I want to undo and I find that it was a granny knot, I'll take a knife to it. Okay, let me ask you this. I think I found online that you had been called as an expert sometimes in court cases or criminal cases. So in other killers who use ligatures like this, is this a common knot in that case, or is this kind of an uncommon knot? I would say's not a common knot where the individual that tied it is more completely aware of other forms of knot that may be more convenient, may be more speedy, may be more convenient to tie. Okay. So, I mean, can you give an estimate maybe on maybe the,

how many cases have you, have you consulted on like this before? I would say probably 20, maybe 25. Do you have any idea how often a knot similar to this is used, like a percentage or anything? No, I would have to guess, and I really don't enjoy guessing. Okay, okay, I was just asking. I was just trying to understand maybe if this was common or uncommon as far as people who use, you know, tied ligatures is. I would say it's common probably more than half, but I have no data to back that up. But it looks like that the part of the shirt that was torn off to make the ligature was like the neck or something. It's like a hem. Is that what you're seeing there? Yeah, it's something from from a seam or other joining of two pieces of fabric,

and that forms the stronger part of the fabric of a T-shirt, whether it's the neck or the arm or the hem around the bottom. If you're using a fabric of any sort, you'll look for whatever is the toughest part of that fabric. And the toughest part of the fabric, even though it's technically weakened by the knots, it is strengthened by the folding of the fabric on either side, and then the close and tight stitching that's used along it to be able to derive a relatively strong and relative is a very important word there a relatively strong ligature mr philpott continued to explain the significance using the fabric itself by itself if that were ripped apart, and you've undoubtedly seen scenes from movies and from

World Wrestling Foundation, people who tear their t-shirt apart, the fabric itself tears very easily, but the seams don't. And as soon as it gets to a seam, that's where people have the greatest difficulty in tearing it apart. Therefore, that's the strongest part. Yeah, it makes sense from the point of view of, well, what's the strongest bit that I've got here because I'm afraid of this tearing apart. And then they tug on or handle the piece that's got the seam in it and take it from there to use the strength of the seam to form a relatively strong piece of ligature. There was one thing I wanted to share with you, and when I asked her, we know this was at least his second victim. His DNA was found on the other.

However, he was 37 or 38 at this time, and the FBI profiler we work with said there's no way he started killing it at 37 or 38 at this time. And the FBI profiler we work with said there's no way he started killing it at 37 or 38. So, you know, there's probably more. And one of the reasons I'm asking is because there was another lady found very close. She was from 400 miles away, yet found very close, within two miles of the other victim that they found his DNA on. And a ligature, she had been dead for probably six years, at least four years, we know. And there was a ligature found around the neck, the bones, what was left. So we're trying to do work to see if, you know,

he was involved with that one as well. So anyway, your help on that has been really important. So I want to thank you for your time on this. You're very welcome. In most of the cases where ligatures are employed, if strangling is a part of the knot tying that's gone on, there would generally speaking be some collapse or other breakage of the hyoid bone and that would be something that the medical examiner should have looked at and prepared in their report and that may well be something further to look at. More on that next time.

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