Murder With My Husband - 121. The Norrmalmstorg Robbery

Episode Date: July 18, 2022

On this episode of MWMH, Payton and Garrett discuss the 1973 Norrmalmstorg Bank Robbery and how it coined the term “Stockholm Syndrome”. LIVE ONLINE SHOW TICKETS HERE! https://www.moment.co/murderwithmyhusband https://linktr.ee/murderwithmyhusband  Case Sources: The New Yorker, “The Bank Drama,” by Daniel Lang, November 18, 1974 History.com, “Stockholm Syndrome: The True Story of Hostages Loyal to their Captor,” by Christopher Klein, April 9, 2019 Smithsonianmag.com, “The Six-Day Hostage Standoff that Gave Rise to ‘Stockholm Syndrom,’” by Kat Eschner, August 23, 2017 Time.com, “A 1973 Bank Robbery Gave the World ‘Stockholm Syndrome’ – But There’s More to the Story Than That,” by David King, August 4, 2020 Historybyday.com, “How the ‘Bank Drama’ of 1973 Brought Us Stockholm Syndrome,” by Alva Yaffe, no date provided. Truecrimeedition.com, “Stockholm Syndrome, would you protect the people sent to harm you?” author not listed, June 7, 2021 My.clevelandclinic.org, “Stockholm Syndrome” Daily.jstor.org, “Stockholm Syndrome,” by Kristin Hunt, April 24, 2019 Macrotrends.com, “Stockholm, Sweden Metro Area Population 1950-2022” Thecinemaholic.com, “Where is Jan-Erik Olsson Now?” by Shraman Mitra, May 6, 2022 Netflixlife.com, “Clark on Netflix: is Clark Olofsson still alive?” by Natalie Zamora, May 2022 Thetealmango.com, “Clark Olofsson: The Swedish Criminal who Inspired the Stockholm Syndrome,” by Mallika, May 6, 2022 Tripadvisor.com  Googlemaps.com Wikepedia.org, “Jan-Erik Olsson” Assisted research and writing by Diane Birnholz Links: https://linktr.ee/murderwithmyhusband Ads: Just Thrive: www.justthrivehealth.com use code HUSBAND Faherty: www.fahertybrand.com/husband and use code HUSBAND Betterhelp: www.betterhelp.com/husband Shopify: www.shopify.com/husband  Upside: download the free Upside App and use promo code husband Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Yes, you energy. Energy for everything. Captain Banner now to learn more. Hey everybody, welcome back to our podcast. This is Myrda with my husband. I'm Peyton Moreland. And I'm Garrett Moreland. And he's the husband.

Yeah, I'm the husband. Dang, our virtual live episode is coming up so soon. I'm so freaking pumped. Two weeks. I don't know if we mentioned this, but that we were covering the Casey Anthony case on our live episode. Yeah, right.

I think we mentioned it last time. Yeah, so Garrett hasn't heard that, and I know most of you listening have, so I'm excited for the comment live stream. We picked this case on purpose so that all of us can talk about the case as we're covering it, and then also see Garrett's reaction to hearing a case that we all infamously know

but he has no idea what it is. And if you are a member of our Patreon, you actually get discounted tickets to the live shows that I did just wanna mention that. If you were thinking about maybe doing both, that might be a way to go. Also real quick, before we hop into it, I just wanted to say our Apple subscriptions, there were some weird issues with some of the episodes not being ad free, but everything

should be fixed now. Okay, go ahead with your 10 seconds. All right, well, nothing new with the HOA. Sorry, everybody. We'll see if there's any more drama next week, but as of now, we brought in our trash cans this week, so I guess now, we brought in our trash cans this week. So, we're being good.

I guess we decided to follow the rules. On the bright side, we are officially aunt and uncle. Yep, we are Aunt Pady and Uncle Gary. That's the first one for us. My brother just had his first baby and we were, we got to go see him at the hospital yesterday and it was like the coolest thing ever. So crazy, baby. I don't know. It's just crazy. Yeah. You're just so small and I know. It's just crazy that you're just like this little tiny human at some point.

You know? Yeah. So we're pretty excited about that. So congrats to them. I'm currently wearing my workout clothes. So if you're watching on YouTube, it's because I'm going to play Pickleball after. So that is the reason I'm wearing those. And it's been super hot where we are. I'm proud to look this huge heat wave. So we've barbecued a couple of times, but it's been almost like too hot. I know it has been like suffocating

when you walk out the door. It's been like 100 plus every single day, which I mean, I get it summer. Everyone who lives in actual hot states are about to be in our comments. Like you know nothing. Everyone from Arizona right now is like, it's 116 degrees.

Yeah. Like I'm sorry. Hot hot. Yeah, hot is hot. I feel like I get that 116 obviously is hotter than 100. I feel like at some point it's just like. Dude it's hot. It's hot.

Yeah. It's really hot outside. Our last thing, something that Peyton and I are trying to get better at is cooking. Mm-hmm. And so we cooked a meal the other night. That wasn't Hello Fresh, because we only ever cooked Hello Fresh.

But we cooked a meal that was supposed to take, I don't know, 45 minutes, right? Two hours later. It took us like two and a half hours. And we made sure to eat it. Yeah. And it still was not. When you cook something for two hours, it's

not enjoyable after that. That's, it's just why I hate cooks. It wasn't halfway through. I was like, I'm just going to get door dash. Yeah. This is so gross. I can't do this anymore. I know. Anyways, we did it. We stayed true. We cooked it and we're trying to get better at it. It's a goal of ours. So on that note, let's hop into our case. Okay. I am puppy sitting my mom's dog and she's on my lap right now, but under this blanket, so if it suspiciously moves in the middle, it's not a ghost. It is just her adjusting. Our case sources for this week are the New Yorker history.com, smithoneanmag.com, time.com, history by day.com, truecrimeadition.com, my cleveland and clinic.org, daily.jstor.org, Okay, so according to the Cleveland Clinic, Stockholm Syndrome is a coping mechanism to

a captive or abusive situation. People develop positive feelings toward their captors over time, and people with Stockholm syndrome form a psychological connection with their captors and begin sympathizing with them. You've heard of Stockholm syndrome before. Correct. The Cleveland Clinic also notes that this condition can apply in other situations involving trauma or abuse as well, and not just in hostage taking cases. This condition can apply to situations

including child abuse, coach athlete abuse, relationship abuse, and sex trafficking. According to the Cleveland Clinic, again, experts don't know why some people develop Stockholm syndrome and some people don't. It's believed to be a rare psychological condition and it is theorized that feeling compassion for one's abuser or a captor, particularly where the captor

shows them some kindness and doesn't harm them may help secure the captives' persons safety. So they're thinking maybe it's just like psychologically, they think they have a better chance to survive if they start to sympathize with them, not as a cover, but like legitimately their body just starts doing it. Okay, so it doesn't become a act at some point.

It becomes a real. Real. But Stockholm syndrome is not recognized by the American Psychiatric Association as a condition in its diagnostic manual. And so therefore, there is no standard treatment. Stockholm syndrome has not historically appeared in the manual as many believe it falls under trauma bonding or PTSD instead. And there is no consensus about the correct clarification. So essentially, some experts believe it and some don't.

However, we can't deny the fact that it is well established that certain behaviors and coping mechanisms can result from highly traumatic situations. Victims who bond with their predators, whatever the reason, it's real and it's indisputable. So where did the term Stockholm syndrome even come from? And what case was confusing enough that it coined that term? That is the case we are going to cover today. It's interesting. All right, let's do it. So our episode begins in Stockholm, Sweden.

Stockholm is the capital of Sweden and is made up of 14 islands and has more than 50 bridges connecting the various parts of the city. According to macro trends, the population of Stockholm in 1973 was 1,024,000, a decline of 0.49% from the previous year. So yes, our case is happening in 1973. Our whole case is actually going to take place in the normal neighborhood in Stockholm.

And you'll understand why we are going to specifically stay in this neighborhood. And before we go any further, I do want to mention that I looked up how to pronounce a lot of these Swedish words. And it took me a really long time and I'm probably still going to mess them up no matter how many times I practice. So just be aware. TripAdvisor says that the neighborhood of Normaum is Stockholm's busiest and most central area. Unlike an American suburb, Normaum Storg Square is a central square located in the normal neighborhood. It is considered to be an upscale, beautiful, and historic square. The reason we are staying primarily in this exact neighborhood,

particularly the normal stork square, is because our episode takes place in a bank located in this square. And inside this bank for six days to be exact. Credit Banking was located on this square in 1973 and Credit Banking as an entity is no longer around today. Yes, but we are back on Thursday, August 23rd, 1973. It's a normal busy day in this Swedish square where everything is about to change. On the morning of August 23rd, shortly before 10.30 a.m., a man entered the main branch of Credit Binkin. The man was carrying a folded up jacket and a radio.

From all outside appearances, the man looked just like your regular bank customer. The man's appearance, however, was disguised, but no one initially noticed it. He was wearing makeup, a thick brown wig, and sunglasses. His mustache and eyebrows were also dyed black. Upon entering the bank, the man quietly made his way around when suddenly, from underneath his jacket, he pulled out a loaded machine gun

and fired around at the ceiling. Think Batman, think the Joker, like that's what's happening in this bank. That's crazy that he actually had a machine gun. I know, and also just I feel like sometimes like a machine gun, what in the world? Yeah, like we think of a bank robbery, that's not what you're thinking.

Yeah. So the man then yelled in an American accent, the party has just begun. So he was American or he just yelled in an American accent? Well, the American accent part was confusing because it's 1973 in the middle of Sweden. Why is there an American firing a machine gun into the ceiling in this popular bank? At this time in Sweden, violence was rare and extremely uncommon, and even more than that was the rarity of robberies. The number had been rising, but not nearly as fast or as popular as bank robberies were

becoming in America at this time. The robber then put the radio on the bank counter and turned it up full blast. It was at this point that the intruder looked around the bank and analyzed the situation. At gunpoint, he ordered a male bank employee to tie up three separate employees with some rope he took out of his bag. Three female bank employees were the ones he tied up. Those women would go on to later be identified as Kristen Inmark, Birgita Lundblad, and Elizabeth Oldgrin. After the male bank employee finished tying up

these female workers, the robbers stood in front of them, officially taking them hostage. He then yelled out, I want to talk to the police. The bank, like all Swedish banks, had a silent alarm system and at least one person and likely many in the bank had already triggered it. The police arrived on the scene almost immediately. A police sergeant in plain clothes,

Sergeant Morgan Rylander, was the first to identify himself as a police officer to the robber. Rylander spoke in English to the robber. Okay, so I need to probably explain here that this bank is two levels, two tears. And this robber is on the main floor with everyone. And then the second floor is where the police are coming in at. And it's almost like, just think of it as two separate entities.

Just because he's in the main part does not mean the police have like officially taken over the bank as well. It's almost like two separate places. Um, but the police are just upstairs and he's downstairs with the hostages. The robber then demanded to speak with a higher up officer, so Rylander went off to summon one. And while he was gone, a detective in plain clothes, again, appeared from the upper level in the bank.

And this time, this detective was holding a gun. Birgita, one of the women that was tied up, screamed at the officer, don't shoot. Now, I'm thinking this was because she was scared that if he tried to shoot the robber, the officer would most likely hit one of the hostages. Okay, I was going to ask, I'm surprised no one is shot. Right. Well, because he has three hostages already. Yeah. So the robber demanded to know who this other detective was. The detective then identified himself as a police officer and told the robber to drop his weapon. The robber then fired his submachine gun at the officer and hit him in his right hand, causing permanent damage but not death.

Rylander, the original officer that was on scene that day, then came back with a higher ranked officer, police superintendent Sven Thorander, who was chief of the police homicide and violence squad. The robber ordered Thorander to take off his coat and turn around to make sure that Thorandor wasn't armed. It was at this point that the robber started making his demands. Now notice here how his initial reason to invade the bank does not appear to be money or robbery because his first or second line was, I need to speak to police. You know what my sense? And also the line he said when he first came in, it just seems like, no, no, no, no,

this is more than just taking money. Correct. So something else is going on. The seemingly American robber wanted three million Swedish Corona, which translated to about $710,000. He wanted half in Swedish currency and half in foreign currency. He asked for a fast getaway car and he also asked for two pistols. Significantly, he asked that the three hostages be allowed

to escape with him in the car. He demanded that he and the hostages all be supplied with helmets and bulletproof vest to get out of there. The robber pointed his gun at the hostages and says, if anything happens to them, the police will be to blame, not me. But then, the robber made a final demand that would give away his whole reasoning for being there, a demand that would lead to his identification. The last demand the robber made was for the release of a criminal who was currently serving a six-year prison car.

Oh, OK, here we go. That prisoner was a man named Clark Olivesin. The robber wanted Clark to be transported to the bank and freed in order to provide assistance in the robbery and the escape. How long was he serving again? A six year prison term. Six, I feel like you would just wait it out.

Why would you just serve? Six years, I mean, it's a long time but it's not like it's a 20, 30-year sentence. Right. So I'm surprised he's doing all this for a six-year term. Right. So this prisoner Clark Olipson was born on February 1st, 1947, and was 26 years old at the time of this bank heist. He was serving time in prison for an armed robbery. They had resulted in the death of a policeman. Clark was well known among criminals for his exploits involving robberies and escaping from prison.

Indeed, Clark was in solitary confinement at Norcaping Prison when he was drawn into the bank. So when this robber comes in and says Clark's name, Clark was serving in solitary confinement in this prison. So also, side note, I'm surprised you only got six years for killing a police officer. Correct. Given that we're not in the United States and usually there's a harsher punishment for that here than in other places.

Clark Olipson and the robber first met at Cali Mer Correctional Institution. Most sources actually call him Clark since the two last names of the robber and the prisoner are similar enough to cause confusion, so I will call him Clark. But the robber asked Clark for information while they were serving in prison together about how to rob banks and deal with hostages, information which the robber would then use during this bank

ice. According to the recently released Netflix series Clark, which is based on Clark Oluffson's life, Clark grew up with an abusive father and the series portrays Clark as being obsessed with women and portrays him as falling in love with many women. Clark became well-known among criminals for his many prison escapes.

So he was a well-known prisoner and criminal. Within a few hours of the beginning of the takeover robbery, the police began carrying out the robber's demands. Now, if this seems odd, it's because the Swedish police, at this time, were so unaccustomed to robbery and to violence in general, and were so adverse to it that they would go to great lengths to accommodate his demands in order to avoid the bloodshed of innocent people. So they were basically like, we'll give this guy whatever

he needs as long as no one dies. It seems like he's not trying to kill people though. Sometimes it seems like he's doing everything to avoid killing somebody. Yes. Okay you guys we are getting into an ad. I know you guys have both heard the story about how Garrett and I were both paying separately for peacock, and then we used rocket money and realized how dumb we are and our so happy rocket money helped us stop doing that. Rocket money is a personal finance app that finds and cancels your unwanted subscriptions,

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or use promo code husband at checkout. Nativedo.com slash husband and use promo code husband. So the police provided the robber with three bags of Swedish bills worth the equivalent of $350,000. The robber, however, rejected the money police had brought him noting that the serial numbers of the bills were numbered in consecutive order, meaning that the bills would be capable of being trite. And so it was like, I want different money. I don't want this. Yeah. He told the police that he wanted older bills in less pristine shape, which took the police

a couple of additional hours to secure. Meanwhile, police told the robber that the only demand they wouldn't be able to meet was allowing him to leave with the hostages, the three women he had taken. Those were innocent citizens who police could not comfortably allow to continue on in this dangerous situation. During this whole time, the robber was standing guard against his hostages. And eventually, as morning turned to afternoon, he even allowed them one by one to use a bank phone to call home to their families and let them know that they were

okay. Yeah, so I mean, it doesn't seem like he's not trying to hurt anybody. Right. Not saying what he's doing is okay. I'm just pointing out the obvious right now. Right. So the events that unfolded during this bank siege were well documented. The police placed video cameras inside the bank while they had been in there, along with microphones near the bank vault, which captured conversations happening inside during the whole entire thing, which is how we know so much detail.

Much of the information in this outline comes from the extremely well researched and well written piece in the New Yorker, the bank drama by Daniel Lang dated November 18th, 1974. It was at this point in the timeline that witnesses began noticing the robber consistently chewing on caffeine tablets to stay alert and not get sleepy. By 4 p.m. police have located Clark Oliveson, the prisoner that the robber has asked for, and they immediately pulled him out for transportation to the bank to help them get the hostages out and identify the robbers. So like, we're gonna shove this prisoner in

here. We're gonna do exactly what this robber asked in hopes that number one we can identify him and number two we can get the hostages out of there. Clark arrives at the bank after the police get him out of prison and the police initially had Clark in handcuffs when they brought him through the bank entrance to the second floor, but they then removed the handcuffs

and sent him down the staircase to the main floor and into the bank, into the hands of the robber who asked for him. And everyone was kind of noticing that Clark was acting extremely confused by all of this when police initially thought that Clark had possibly planned this to get out of prison. Interesting, I'm now, I mean, I have my own theories.

I'm now wondering if he wants to kill Clark. Right, like it is Clark not in on this? Because Clark's acting super confused. Yes, it's weird. Clark reportedly saw the robber and didn't immediately recognize who it was because he said in Swedish what's going on here. A couple seconds passed while Clark studied the robber's face and finally recognition dawned, oh it's you he said. It was at this point that the robbers stunned everyone. He calmly greeted Clark in perfect Swedish, which was the first time during this

whole heist that he had not spoke English. Police realized immediately that just possibly the man in the bank was not even American, but he had been faking an American accent this whole time. That's smart. The robbers demeanor had completely changed once the police allowed Clark to join him in the bank. He calmed down, he untied the hostages, and he stopped yelling.

After this, Clark and the robber began working together. But it seemed like to all of the witnesses that there was a possibility Clark was not originally in on this. Again, everyone's feeling like Clark has been dragged into this as well. It was obvious he knew the robber, but he didn't say who it was, and it was not apparent whether or not he would, he had helped plan this to begin with. Either way, the robber would not allow Clark to leave the bank, and he was still holding

the three women hostage so a stand still began. At one point that night, Clark was checking the inside perimeter of the bank. When he came upon a man named Sven Saffstrom hiding in a bank storeroom. Sven had ran for cover when all of this had happened and Clark apparently felt he had no choice but to take Sven as a hostage as well, which was not part of the robber's original plan. So Clark then led him to the robber. He was like, hey, look who I found hiding in the back. We originally thought it was just us to and these three women, hostages,

we had released everyone else, but this guy was hiding. And the robber was not happy to have a male captive and told him, don't be a hero. I like, you're not going to save these three women just sit down and shut up basically. This confirms that the robbers strategically targeted women as his hostages and let the men go so he could easily be in control of the situation and eliminate all threats. So it's now Clark, the unidentified robber, and four hostages in the bank as day turns

tonight. The robber kept the hostages close to him so that they could act as a human shield as to protect him from the police. Across from the bank, the police had set up sharp shooters on the rooftops in hope of maybe getting a shot But they were never able to get that clear shot. Although at one point the robber would shoot at them, but not hit anybody. You know, I feel like I've watched enough movies and I mean I've watched a couple like bank robberies on, you know, different channels. Yeah. I just feel like, how do you get away? Right.

Like, how do you get away? How does anyone think they're gonna get in? I just never, I mean, the movies are so different. They have all these like, crazy, strategic plans. Right, right. But very rarely, very rarely is it actually happening real life.

And I think unless you can get out before police get there, your chances of getting away, they're almost like zero. Exactly how I feel. So I'm just I'm curious to see where this goes. Right. So by this point, police have provided a getaway car for the robber and Clark. They saw a blue Mustang outside the bank.

They were like, Oh, that must be the car police have given us. Hoping for this to be the end of it, police asked the robber and Clark to leave the hostages be exit the bank and take the car, take the money, take the guns, they promised no one would follow and they would safely escape. But the Mustang was outfitted with a radar device that would track the car's location. The robber knew that escaping alone in the car without hostages would be nothing but a trap. The robber demanded once again the hostages would need to come in the car without hostages would be nothing but a trap. The robber demanded once again, the hostages would need to come in the car with him.

Police would not allow it. So it was supposed to be a robbery and escape turned into something much more, something that would go down in history. The negotiations reached an in pass because the police refused to let the robber leave in the car with the hostages. Understanding the situation and refusing to allow the hostages to leave, at about 10 p.m.

on the first night, the police provided the robber and the hostages with supplies to last the night, including cigarettes and a cigarette lighter. At some point, the robber decided to take the hostages and clerked to the safe deposit vault on the ground floor of the bank. The spot felt safe to the robber as it had no windows to shoot him through. He could lock everyone inside the vault, plus there were bathrooms close by. The vault was long and narrow, 47 feet by 11 feet. The ceiling was low at only 7.5 feet high. It had a telephone, lights, and a narrow entrance with two doors,

an inner door, and an outer door. The outer door was a heavy steel door that could only be locked from the outside. The only way to lock this door was by hand. The inner door didn't have a lock. So think about how scary and uncomfortable this was for the hostages as the day turned to night and no progress had been made, and now they're getting shoved into a vault that could be locked from the outside, but not the inside. So at this point, I'm gonna just do a brief explanation of each hostage who they were

so we can kind of remember them through this case. The first was Kristen in Mark, who was 23 years old at the time of the robbery. She was working at the bank as a stenographer. She had come to Stockholm about three and a half years earlier as a teenager to accompany her fiance who had been offered a good job in Stockholm. And the fiance wouldn't move there without her.

So she accompanied him. Kristen was from a gold mining town in the northern part of Sweden. Kristen accepted the first job in Stockholm that she was offered. And it happened to be at that bank. The couple eventually broke up. Kristen didn't enjoy banking and it happened to be at that bank. The couple eventually broke up. Kristen didn't enjoy banking and was scheduled to start classes in social work that September

just a month after the heist. She had been impatient to start her new studies and leave this bank job and now she's a hostage at the bank. Brigida Lundblad was 31 years old, a married mom of two daughters ages three and one. At the time, she had become a hostage. She had been working at the bank for 10 years and was known as a diligent and responsible worker. She was assigned to handle bank drafts from overseas. She and her husband and child lived in a suburb called Jacobsburg, which was about 30 minutes away from the bank.

Her husband worked as a civil engineer. She was happy working at the bank and plan to continue working there. Elizabeth Oldgren was 21 years old. She worked at the bank as a cashier in the foreign exchange department. She had been working there for just over a year, but she wanted to leave her position so that she could pursue schooling and a career in nursing. She had plans for that coming weekend to attend a crayfish party. Sven Saffstrom was 25 years old at the time of the robbery.

According to Daniel Lang's piece in the New Yorker, Sven worked as a sort of troubleshooter at the bank. His mother was the one who'd first gotten him the job at the bank, and his parents were both government officials who were concerned about Sven's slowness in finding himself. Sven found that he liked working at the bank more than he had expected. So those are the hostages. Sven found that he liked working at the bank more than he had expected. So those are the hostages. At about 11 p.m. that first night, the robber used the phone to call Sweden's prime minister, Olaf Palm as he was the one person who could authorize the robber's plan to escape the bank with the hostages.

Palm had been in his office at this late hour waiting for news about the Swedish King's health condition. The robber threatened the lives of the hostages during this phone call and grabbed Elizabeth by the throat. Wow. Palm could hear her gasping over the phone. The robber began to countdown starting at one minute, but then hung up the phone with 15 seconds left and without hurting any of the hostages. So again, like you said, it's almost like he really doesn't want to hurt them. No, he's just trying to scare them at this point to get away. That night, the hostages went to sleep there in the vault.

The robber had a Elizabeth sleep in a chair facing the doorway of the vault so that she could serve as a human shield in the event that the police tried to storm their way inside the vault. He had strategically placed an explosive device at Elizabeth's feet. The robber sat behind Elizabeth, always holding his gun, which he kept strapped to his wrist and which he called his lawyer. So he called his gun his lawyer. Did they both sleep at the same time? Yeah, everyone slept in the vault.

All six of them. All six of them. Elizabeth woke up after midnight on what was now Friday, August 24th, filling cold in the chilly vault and the robber draped his own wool jacket around her shoulders. So one of his hostages woke up complaining about the temperature and he was like, Oh, here, take my jacket. At 6 a.m., a police man showed up with another man on the staircase outside of the vault. This man, a civilian, was calling out, Caj, Caj, I am your brother.

During the night, the police had been theorizing who they thought the robber was because Clark had still not told police. And they thought they had discovered it. The police mistakenly believed that the robber was Caj Hansen, another prisoner who had escaped. Hansen was a bank robber. And so they were like, this has to be him. How do you get that? You can't get that wrong. I, well, I mean, I'm just shoving in the dark. I get it. Yeah, I'm just, that's not the best thing to get wrong at this point. So around 6am, the police were hoping that the robbers' brother could coax him out of the vault and get him to end the hostage standoff. Unfortunately, they

had made a big mistake and CAUGE was not the robber. The robber responded by firing two rounds from his machine gun. No one was hurt, but the real CAUGE was not the robber. The robber responded by firing two rounds from his machine gun. No one was hurt, but the real CAUGE Hansen learned of these events and called the police from Hawaii to inform him that, yeah, I had escaped, but I'm not the robber you're looking for. And I would never take hostages. This was not a good move because Hansen was eventually captured, extra-died it back to Sweden and returned to prison.

Oh my gosh. After realizing their mistake, the police provided bedding for the robber and the hostages outside the vault. So the next night, if it got to that point, they could sleep more comfortably. That sucks for that guy. Right.

I guess he was in prison, but still that sucks that he got caught because of a... Because he called and said, no, it's not me. Why would he do that? I don't know. That's funny. The police commissioner to inspect the hostages to make sure that they were alive and

well after the long night, the first night in the vault. The robber led the four hostages out of the vault while the police commissioner inspected them from the top of the staircase where he couldn't be shot by the robber. So it's just a visual inspection. The police commissioner saw that the four hostages were all in good health. However, he witnessed something he hadn't expected. The hostages all behaved in a hostile fashion towards him,

the police commissioner. According to the New Yorker article, the commissioner saw with astonishment that their manner with Clark was entirely relaxed and at moments even happy. Clark had an arm around the shoulders of each Kristen and Elizabeth in a display of easy camaraderie. The commissioner made the following terse factual entry in his account of the bank drama.

All the hostages seemed physically fit and they all entreated me to let them leave the bank with the robber and Clark. So the hostage were like, please just let us go with them. Like just let us leave. That's what they want. Please just let us leave. The hostages told the police they wanted to leave with the men. Kristen actually gave a radio interview over the phone that day. That's how chill everything was inside of the vault. At some point during the second day, the robber took Sven aside and said he was going to shoot him. However, the robber made clear that he was only going to

shoot Sven in the leg and that he wouldn't kill him. The robber said this was necessary to shake up the police, make them take him seriously and get them all to leave in the car. The robber explained that Sven could drink all the beer he wanted ahead of time so he could be drunk and the shot would hurt less and that the robber would shoot Sven in the leg at the bottom of the staircase so police could easily see him and easily come get him. The robber told Sven they could give him. He'd even give him a signal to when this would happen. But none of this would ever happen.

At 5 p.m. Kristen phoned the prime minister. She didn't know him personally but this conversation was tape recorded by the police, unknown to Kristen phoned the prime minister. She didn't know him personally, but this conversation was tape recorded by the police, unknown to both Kristen and the prime minister. They spoke for 42 minutes. Kristen told the prime minister, please, please let us leave with the men, saying that the robbers have been very nice to everyone and that she was afraid the police would attack and kill everyone.

Which I get. This is where I'm trying to figure out. I guess that I'm trying to say is I don't understand. What points did go from just you faking it or being like, look, they're not going to hurt us to Stockholm. Right. Syndrome. You know what I mean? Yeah, I don't know. And is that even a fine line?

Does it even happen? At what point is that lapse or? Because it's already been. That's right. It's hard. Yeah, it's already been a full day that they've been held hostage. And at this point, it seems like even this soon, It's already been a full day that they've been held hostage. And at this point, it seems like even this soon,

they are already not scared of the captors, they're more scared of the police. But even you telling me this, it doesn't seem like, I'm not saying I wouldn't be scared, but I'd be like, I hope the police don't do anything stupid because I don't want them to kill me if they're not hurting me. Right, and I do think that's a valid point.

Yeah. So, Kristen asked the Prime Minister over and over again on this phone to give them money to the robbers and to let them leave the bank with the robbers saying it was the only way for them to stay alive. Exactly what you just said. Yeah. It's more about I want to live so you need to be nice to these people. Exactly. During this call, which was later released, Kristin says, quote, the robber is sitting in here

and he is protecting us from the police. Almost as if she believes the police are the dangerous ones. Okay. By this time, only a day into the hostage situation, all of the hostages even spend were filling gratitude towards the robbers. Sven reported that he felt it was nice of the robber

to only want to shoot him in the leg. Again, this might not make any sense to you or to us. We are still sitting here going, how could this happen? How does this make sense? But this is the phenomenon of supposed Stockholm syndrome. It doesn't make sense. That's why it's even been speculated on. Later that night, the second day, the police correctly figured out the robber's identity. The robber's voice was broadcast on the radio and a police detective recognized the voice as belonging to criminal John Eric Olson. Olson had a lengthy criminal history.

At the time of the robbery, he was already well known to the police as a safe cracker who was an expert in the use of explosives and who was willing to use a gun. He had already served a three-year sentence for theft. However, he was on leave after serving about half of his sentence at the time of this robbery. How do you ever kill anyone before? No. No. This was also known as being on furlough from prison as part of the Justice Systems effort to allow prisoners time to re-acclimate to life on the outside.

So his sentence wasn't over, but he was out. Does that make sense? Like probation-based. Yeah, basically. According to TrueCrimadition.com, years earlier, Olsen had achieved fame and sweetened for helping a man. He was robbing after he, the robbery victim, collapsed from a heart attack

and then continued to rob his house. So that's what he was famous for was he broke into this house and he was robbing it. And the man who was the victim, a tax or collapsed having a heart attack. And Olsen stopped the robbery and went over to try to help this man. Wow. So I'm saying it doesn't sound like he wants to hurt someone. He just wants money. It's just a criminal. Yeah, I'm not saying like what he's doing is okay. But Olsen first met Clark Olafson at a Swedish prison called Calimer.

The two became friends and Olsen was fascinated with Clark's criminal history. Olsen wanted to learn from Clark about how to commit a bank robbery. This show is sponsored by BetterHelp. Have you ever found yourself at a crossroads unsure of which direction to take in life? We all face those moments of uncertainty where the right path seems elusive. But guess what, there's a solution that can help you find clarity and confidence. And that's therapy. As you guys know, I talk about therapy all the time.

I go to therapy weekly. I definitely am a big supporter of it. It's helped me manage my stress and anxiety and really helped me work through difficult times. Therapy is not just for major traumas, it's for anyone who wants to learn positive coping skills, set healthy boundaries, and become the best version of themselves. It's about staying connected to what truly matters, as you navigate life's challenges. Here's how it works, simply fill out a brief questionnaire and better help will match you with a licensed therapist who meets your specific needs.

And if you ever feel they need to switch therapists, you can do so at no additional charge. That therapy be your map to a better life. Visit betterhelp.com slash husband today and get 10% off your first month. That's better help help.com slash husband. In January 1973, Olson, who was then out on furlough, but actually hadn't returned,

so he was actually considered a fugitive at this point, tried to get Clark, his friend, and who is fast-forward in the future now at this bank robbery. He tried to break him out of prison by attempting to detonate dynamite. However, this attempt failed, and the dynamite didn't explode. And so after this attempt from August 8th to August 23, while in active fugitive, Olsen hides out in the home of one of Clark's women friends. It seems weird to me that after all this Clark student recognized him right away. Well, he wasn't disguised.

True. But I guess it seems that he wouldn't be like, maybe assume, oh, this has to be Clark. This has, or Olsen. Sorry, yeah, this has to be Olsen. Exactly. Especially because the woman that Olsen stayed with while being a fugitive, who was Clark's lady friend, was pregnant with Clark's baby. And so it's kind of like he was definitely involved

in Clark's life. So it's kind of, it is weird, the Clark pretended or truly didn't recognize him or didn't know what was going on. Despite Olsen's lengthy criminal past, the police chief was actually glad to discover that the robber was Olsen because he believed, again, that Olsen was not the type of personality

to commit violence against hostages based on his criminal past. According to the New Yorker, Olsen was known to take his standing in the prison community seriously. In gel, he had actually once attempted to knife a child molester. So he kind of did believe in this like justice system of I'm a criminal, but I'm not out here to hurt people type thing.

By 10 a.m. the next day, which is day three, all had been quiet in the vault all morning, even after the police yelled Olson's name, which is basically telling Olson that they know who he is now. So a police man went halfway down the staircase and shot a single shot from his pistol in order to make a noise and get some kind of response. At this point, the outer door was slightly ajar. A different police officer snuck down even more with a five foot long wooden pole

which he used to force the outer door shut. He then turned the lock which locked the robbers and the hostages inside of the vault. Everyone inside the vault had been sleeping. So nothing was going on. They just didn't wake up. They were all asleep. I'm not sure that that's a good idea.

That was the best idea. Right. I don't know whose idea it was to be like, oh, okay, let's go lock them in the safe together. Well, I think they're thinking we can contain them. Now we have the upper hand because they're all locked in a closet. Yes, so. But it does seem scary to me that the only way to get them out now is to get that close to them.

I can just imagine them in like a circle and they're like, okay, let's just lock them in there. Right, well, it was a split decision. Yeah. So the hostages were terrified by the police shutting the door, terrified that the police were about to storm inside. Again, if the hostages were feeling confused or even scared that the police were about to storm inside. Again, if the hostages were feeling confused or even scared that the police were the threat here,

imagine how they would fill when they woke up and realized they'd been locked inside of a small vault. So how can they communicate with the police now since they're locked in there? Phone, there's a telephone in the vault. Oh, the phone, that's right, that's right. So the police chief explained later that the dynamics of the hostage situation

changed once the vault door was locked from the outside as it altered the power dynamic in favor of the police. The police were now able to move around the main floor without fear and could put sandbags against the vault door in an extra effort to make sure that Olsen couldn't somehow force his way out. Olsen then did a counter attack at this. So it's full on war. It's full on war. So Olson inside with hostages like we have to counter attack. He knocked over some heavy cabinets against the inner door, which would prevent the police from being able to get in. So now there's barricades on both sides of this door to prevent them from getting in and then

from getting out. One consequence though of this decision was that the blockade blocked Olson's access to the light switch and the lights were now always on even when the occupants of the vault tried to sleep, which is a form of torture that they use. So now he just accidentally in an already intense situation has basically used a form of torture against himself and his hostages. I'll be honest though, I feel like I can sleep with the lights on. Not for days in a tiny little vault in a hostage situation. I might try that.

So Olsen also stuffed vent holes with the newspaper to try to thwart what he suspected where the police's plans of using tear gas. So he said, we have to cover up all the holes in this vault. They don't tear gas us. But also that means you're now lessening the amount of air that is in this tiny little vault. The police called Olsen and asked if he was ready to give up. They're like, okay, we got you locked in here. Are you ready? And

Olsen responded, go to hell. So no, this is a full blown war between the police and Olsen. And honestly, the hostages, I just feel like they're not going to kill anyone. I really do. I'm really, I'm pretty convinced at this moment they're not going to kill the hostages. I hope I am right. And I guess we'll find out. Well, considering that this was supposedly the case that started Stockholm syndrome, I would dare to say yes, I do think you're correct.

So the police stopped negotiating with Olsen at this point. They were like, okay, that's it. We're shutting off on negotiations. Their plan was to use tear gas. This was exactly what Olsen had been worrying about. The police's plan was to drill holes into the vault and release tear gas via aerosol flasks enough to knock out all of the occupants. The police would have medical personnel present to help everyone in the vault after gasing

them. So they're kind of like, let's just put all of them to sleep, open the door, get the bad guys. It's not a bad plan. No, that's a smarter idea. So during this time, the police were also receiving a multitude of suggestions from regular citizens as how to end the Hossajama because this has now become prime television. Yeah. Everyone's just waiting day by day. We're on day three of these Hossajas and the police strike back. Well, now the hostages and and the

robber strike back now, the police. So it's like it's drama basically. The only reason that this is working though is because the police and everyone else is so convinced that they aren't going to kill them because I feel like if they were nervous at all that they were going to kill the hostages, they would not be doing what they're doing. And also you're on the right track because this is why the robber said, I'm sorry Sven, I have to shoot you in the leg to try to get them to take me seriously, but I still then do it. Also, it's important to note here that the hostages at this point claim that the robber

was taking care of them during this entire old ordeal. He consoled Elizabeth for missing the crayfish party that she had planned. He gave Kristen a souvenir, a bullet from his gun. Sven later said, when he treated us well, we could think of him as our emergency god. Olsen also demanded feminine products for one of the women who had gotten her period while inside the vault. So like he's definitely there is like some camaraderie going on in this vault that police are just astonished by. Around this time, the same day,

the police unlocked the door long enough to deliver supplies such as a chemical toilet, because now they don't have access to a bathroom. Toilet paper, whiskey, toothbrushes, toothpaste, six pair of wool socks, and six athletic warm-up suits. The police were busy learning all they could about the structure of the vault and the thickness of the walls so they could carry out their plan of releasing tear gas into the vault. Accurate detailed information about the building was difficult to come by at this point because

it was a historic building. It was almost a hundred years old and had been remodeled and rebuilt through the decades, but that wasn't necessarily in the plan so they were having to really do research. From this point on, Olsen expected and waited for the police to use tear gas. He talked about it often with the hostages. On Saturday afternoon, the group hadn't eaten

in a pretty long time, so Olsen took out three pairs from his pocket and cut each one and half sharing the half so that each of the six people in the vault could eat half a pair. Again, not typical behavior for a bad guy situation. At some point during this day, still concerned about Sven posing a threat as a hostage, Olsen tests him by pretending to sleep in his chair, but allowing his gun to dangle from his lap without his hand on it. Close to where Sven was sitting to see if Sven would do anything, but Sven did not

try to be a hero, as Olsen had said. Olsen told the author of the New York article, whom he talked to from prison, I was glad for his sake that he didn't. So now we're on day four, Sunday. At 10.45 a.m. on Sunday, August 26, 1973, the police begin drilling. Olson wasn't sure, but strongly suspected that the purpose of drilling was to dispense the gas.

About two hours later, the drill bit had penetrated the vault's concrete ceiling. Olson immediately destroyed the drill bit with an explosive. So as soon as the drill that's drilling poked through the hole, he destroyed it with a bomb, with an explosive. So as soon as the drill that's drilling poked through the hole, he destroyed it with a bomb like an explosive. No one was hurt, but this did set the police back. The situation in the vault became more and more uncomfortable

as the drilling resulted in the lights going on and off, on and off, water dripping down into the cramped quarters where they were staying. So it's drilling all hours of the day, lights falling on and off. I just feel like this whole thing is so unorganized and such a mess. I know.

Like I feel like what you're telling me is fake, but it's real. Right. So on day five at 3 a.m. on Monday, August 27th, the police threatened Olsen and said that if he didn't pass them his gun and his explosives, the police would get tougher on him. In response, Olsen put a noose around each of the

hostages next. Olsen tied the nooses to the still cabinet handles and threatened back, saying, if you guys use your gas, each of these hostages are going to fall down because they're going to pass out and they're going to strangle to death. So if you want to kill them, go ahead. Oh, wow.

Olsen made the hostages stand there like this with the nooses around their next for hours. At around 5 or 6 a.m. Olsen asked Sven if he was getting tired and Sven said no and inquired whether he could do the standing for all of the hostages. So after several hours Olsen finally allowed all of them to remove their nooses, but Sven did stand there for longer. Of course, the headman. I know the police provided food

for the group in the vault at this point who hadn't eaten anything since the the pairs. At 2 p.m. on Monday after resting for a few hours from the exhausting ordeal, the police commissioner met with his officers to come up with a final plan for

how to end this hostage crisis. After considering various tactics and ways to deploy the gas. The police decided definitively to administer tear gas from aerosol flasks, which they would dispense once the police had completed drilling the necessary holes. I thought that he just said don't drill any more holes because we'll kill them with or because they have the nooses around them. He did, but he finally let the hostages take the new stuff because they were getting tired. But how do they know that he won't make him put them back on?

They don't. They release them down. So the police also decided not to give the robbers and hostages any more provisions or food or communicate with them any further. They're like, we have got to stop making it comfortable for them in there. The drilling continued and with it came more water. The hostages were more uncomfortable than ever. Their wool socks were soaked. There was inches of water collecting

in some of the floor in the vault. As the drilling continued, Olsen plugged up one of the holes with some newspaper. He also fired his gun at a policeman who was trying to protect another hole with a plastic shield. This just reminds me of that game where you hit the... Wacomole? Yeah, Wacomole.

Yeah, like I said, it sounds fake, because this whole thing is all over the place. Every time they would successfully get a hole through, the Olsen would just be there, like trying to destroy the phone and poke people through the hole. So no one was hit or injured by the gun shot. And this continued on for the rest of the day

and into the night. So now we are on day six, Tuesday at 8.35 a.m. Olsen fired his gun at a policeman who was trying to cover one of the holes that the police were drilling. This time the officer was hit in his left hand and his left cheek. A few hours later police removed a lantern they were using leaving the vault in complete darkness. By around 9pm, seven holes were done. The drilling stopped and it went quiet for the first time in hours and its pitch black in this vault. Shortly after 9pm, the police released the gas using a fan to distribute

it. The process of administering the gas was complex. As the 15 air saw flasks had to be released at the same time all within one minute. Plus the officers had to be careful to stay out of range of Olsen's weapons who was down there waiting to see them over the holes. The officers were wearing gas masks. The police lowered lamps through the holes so they could watch what was going on below. In response, Olsen ordered the hostages to put their new sys back on. But it was too late as the gas started affecting everyone in the vault

almost immediately. Despite the police's planning over the course of several days, the gas didn't have the intended effect. The gas didn't render everyone to just fall asleep. Instead, it made them all experience agonizing pain and sickness. Oh, no, they were choking, gasping for air, eyes burning, and they were all throwing up all over each other. Man, this is probably one of the worst plans I've ever heard.

So imagine all of this happening in this tiny, dark room that's filled with inches of water. So if they're all throwing up in inches of water, that throw up is going all over everyone. Oh, that is horrible. So with the tear gas released finally Olsen yelled, we give up, let us out because they didn't fall asleep. They're all just so sick. It's almost worked better than the police. So the police demanded to have

Olsen's guns. They're like, we're not letting up until you give us your guns. He relinquished them to the police who were able to grab them from above with the help of a hook and a long court. So they're like, like Jimmy pulling these guns out. But how big were the holes? They were big. They were like, they were big. They were big enough to pull a gun through. Oh, I was imagining like little tiny baby holes. No, because they were originally going to release the gas in flasks. So they had to like throw them through. Which is how anytime an officer's head would pull the hole, you could see them. I I was imagining like holes like the size of a quarter big holes.

That's why it also took so long to drill. Got it. Olson wanted to get it all over with without any more delay. So he was like, okay, you took my guns, but also do you want my explosives? So he was the one who was like, I still have explosives. The police ordered Olson to open the inner door to the vault. They're like break through your barricade while everyone's still sick, by the way, and and get to the inner door to the vault. They're like, break through your barricade while everyone's still sick, by the way, and get to the inner door to the vault.

So Olsen worked feverishly to take down the barricade of furniture aid previously knocked over into the door. Olsen was worried that he and the others might suffer permanent damage from the tear gas. So he quickly took down the barricade and got the inner door open. A police officer was standing in the outer door, but it was only open just to crack. The officer was understandably concerned about being blown up or otherwise injured, so the hostages yelled to the police

to trust Olson. And finally, the police allowed Olson to hand over his explosives to them through the crack in the door. Now that Olson no longer posed a threat, the police yelled for the hostages to come out first. Kristen yelled back at the door. Now that Olsen no longer posed a threat, the police yelled for the hostage to come out first. Kristen yelled back at the police. No, John and Clark go first. You're going to gun them down if we do. Oh my gosh. Yeah, they're protecting them. So the hostages refused to leave the vault before Olsen and Clark's like genuinely because they didn't want them to die. As written in the New Yorker, as they stood framed in the doorway,

the convicts and hostages quickly abruptly embrace each other as soon as they got out, the women kissing their captors, Sven shaking hands with them. And once their farewells were over, all six walked out of the vault, Olsen and Clark in the lead. Okay.

None of the hostages or the robbers were injured during the six day ordeal. It was definitely unpleasant, but none of them were permanently injured. The hostages were put on stretchers and helped medically before being taken for psychiatric care at St. Goren's Hospital to deal with the aftermath of their hostage taking. The four hostages spent 10 days there being treated. Part of the treatment was to lavish the hostages with comforts such as bats, comfortable clothes, their favorite foods. The doctors also encouraged their patients

to discuss their experiences inside the vault as part of their treatment. The doctors found that the hostages held firmly to the notion that the police all six days were the true enemy, the ones who had endangered their lives, and that the robbers were the ones who had saved their lives and that the robbers were the ones who had saved their lives. The hostages could understand logically that their feelings didn't make sense, but they couldn't seem to shake the way they all felt about the robbers and the police. I'm not going to say they're right, but kind of.

I think you know what I'm saying? I'm trying to look at it from their point of view. It did kind of seem like the police were the enemies. We're the danger. I mean, they, because nothing was really going smoothly. They blocked them in a vault. Like everything they did, obviously, was to try to help them. But at the same time, it did seem to make things more dangerous.

Well, and you also have to think as the hostages were saying, hey, just let us leave with them. Like, we don't care. We'll leave with them. And the police kept saying, no, so they're like, the police don't want to get us out of this situation. They don't, they just want to keep us here. The psychiatrist noted that all four of the hostages had very much wanted to keep living throughout the Ordale

so they were like, maybe that was the whole point as they felt like their best chance of survival was to feel this way. Sven, Embragida, returned to working at the bank after this. Kristen worked there for the summer of 1974, before returning to her second year of studies in social work, Elizabeth went to nursing school in Stockholm as planned. Olsen and Clark were both charged and brought to trial.

Olsen was charged with robbery, kidnapping and attempted murder. Clark was charged with robbery, both went on trial before a judge. Apparently, some of the hostages refused to testify against the two men and even raised money for their defense. Clark represented himself at trial and argued that the police had forced him out of prison to serve as Olsen's accomplice. So the trial judge disagreed, convicted Clark and sentenced him to six and a half years in prison. So you just started his sentence over, basically?

Basically. Unlike in the United States, Sweden doesn't use juries in their criminal system, rather a judge just renders the verdict after the trial. However, in appeal, a court reversed Clark's conviction finding that Clark had acted under duress first from pressure from the police and then from pressure under Olsen. Olsen supported Clark's position. So Olsen was like, yeah, I did pressure him, I did force him to be there. Clark's conviction was therefore reversed on appeal, but he returned to prison to serve the remainder of his previous sentence.

Okay. Olsen was convicted and sentenced to 10 years to be served concurrently with the remainder of the three year sentence he had already been serving. Olsen was sent to a maximum security prison. Olson was eventually released on parole. He got married to a woman who had written to him while he was in prison, and he moved with her to Thailand where they lived for 15 years. They eventually returned to Sweden. Olson sold used cars for a living in his later years, and he's now retired, and according

to an article dated a month ago, May 2022, he now just lives a peaceful private life. That's so crazy. It's like a weird happy ending. Right. Clark is still alive as well. He's been out of prison since 2018. He had been serving time in a Belgian prison for other offenses. So Clark remained a criminal. Apparently, he's also currently living a quiet life out of prison as well. Okay.

In July 1974, nearly a year after being held hostage, Brigida was driving with her husband and children through Norke being where Clark was serving time in prison. And she wanted to stop and visit with him. Her husband said it was okay, so he and the children waited outside of the car, while Brigida went in the prison and talked with Clark for 30 minutes.

Prison officials allowed for the visit, even though it hadn't been pre-planned, she declined to discuss what she and Clark talked about with the author of The New Yorker piece, but we just know what happened. Two of the hostages, Chris and Elizabeth, the two younger women became friends like after the whole situation, they hung out together. And the police commissioner awarded plaques

to more than 50 individuals who helped secure the release of the hostages, including police officers, drilling crews, electricians, doctors, and bank executives. Netflix recently released a six episode series called Clark, which focuses on the life and the crimes of Clark Olfson, who was played by Swedish actor Bill Skarsgard, so if you want to go watch that, check that out. According to Time.com, Sweden was mesmerized by the unfolding of this crime. Swedish media records show that the event at its height captured no less than 73% of the viewing public.

It was the first criminal event to be covered by live television in Sweden. The bank drama dominated the news both on television and in the newspapers, crowds gathered outside of the credit bank during the crisis, struggling to comprehend how this type of flamboyant violence could still be happening in their country. The term Stockholm syndrome was coined as a result of the psychological state of the and went on to be used to describe victim behavior literally still to this day. Interesting. I don't want to get, I don't know, obviously I don't want to get too much into it,

but I find it interesting because I think when I think of Stockholm syndrome, obviously when they went through is bad, but I guess I think of it as someone who's being tortured constantly and then they do, and then the captors do something nice. Yeah. And then, and then they're tortured again and then something nice happens and then they do, and then the captors do something nice. Yeah. And then, and then they're tortured again,

and then something nice happens, and then they're tortured again, like, really, really bad things, and I guess trauma that seems like could be really heavy. Yeah, so you're thinking of like the American version of Stockholm Syndrome, because that's more commonly what we see happen,

like what we've called Stockholm Syndrome, which is why I think it hasn't like legally been determined determined because people are like, no, that's just PTSD. That's brainwashing. Brainwashing, yeah. That's why I consider it like your brainwash. Yeah, like giving an inch, you know, type things. Exactly. That's honestly why I think they say, no, Stockholm Syndrome isn't that because there's

other ways to, I mean, that behavior does make sense. Like when you first hear it, you're like, oh my gosh, I would never. But when you're in that situation, so this was the situation that coin stock home syndrome, and I think stock home syndrome is more used for like hostage situations where hostages try to protect the captor. Not for more severe situations.

We actually saw this in the trader Joe, trader Joe's grossy thing. Again, they didn't want to let him walk out on his own for fear that police would retaliate. So they guarded him as they walked out. And I think it does have to do with the fact that if you don't feel like your life is being threatened by your captor, maybe you see them as a more human,

like the more human sides of them, I don't know. Yeah, it's super, super interesting. It is super strange, but I just thought it was interesting that this is where Stockholm syndrome comes from because it happened in Stockholm. Yep. Okay, you guys that is our episode for today a Reminder about our live show coming up. We are so excited and we hope to see you there and I guess we will see you guys next week with another episode. I love it. I hate it. Goodbye. I hate it. Goodbye.