Murder With My Husband - 158. Pam and Helen Hargan - Murder Suicide?

Starting point is 00:00:00 Hey everybody welcome back to our podcast. This is murder with my husband. I'm Peyton Moreland and I'm Garrett Moreland And he's a husband before we go over to Garrett's 10 seconds if you didn't catch this already Bingeed is now a weekly podcast so we are dropping episodes every single week over there So if you want to check it out again, that's just my solo podcast Bingeed I know you will love it if you haven't listened already and if you do listen right now, thank you, I love you so much. Okay, now we can do your 10 seconds. Well I got a ton of suggestions for TV shows.

Starting point is 00:00:38 Now I'm going to slowly start going through them. Didn't you say you started one? I did start one, so session. That was cool. I started that. Then, you know, I just getting through it, trying to get into it. So in okay, so far, so I get I didn't like look up what it was supposed to be about. So it's like a little confused at first. But I'm starting to understand a little bit more now. So that's been good so

Starting point is 00:00:59 far. There's there's a ton I got. I don't know, I feel like there's probably like 500 different TV shows So I'm excited to go through those and the other day I was sitting down and I was thinking about No, how cool to be just to buy a branch or House just in the middle of nowhere and just live off your land and Homestead. Yeah, like it sounds cool and theory. I mean, I know I probably can never I could never do it.

Starting point is 00:01:27 Well, the people were telling you to watch Yellowstone. Does that have anything to do with this? I mean, I've seen Yellowstone. Yellowstone's really good. If you haven't seen it, have you seen, you haven't seen it? I try to get Peyton to watch it with me. And I know she would like it, but she hasn't seen it. It's a really good show. But Peyton's talked about what you've talked about homestead and both of us before. It just seems like in theory to be like, all right, I'm going to move to the middle of Montana. I'm going to buy a house. I'm going to grow my own food right

Starting point is 00:01:56 around in the horse. Yeah. I know I couldn't do it, but it's hilarious because the only time Garrett and I can eat at home is if we're cooking our hello fresh So how are we gonna go from that to home-study? I don't know we're just bad cooks like so okay, so we grow our we grow all of our own food We have meat we have we know whatever it is we start cooking it and then we do our dash McDonald's turns out bad Well, there's gonna be McDonald's and I'm'm trying to say when the little door will we force? Yes, we're forced to eat whatever we make. Sounds like awful.

Starting point is 00:02:32 I know. I know. That's what I was thinking about. So it's like, okay, well, let's go to X, Y and Z today. Oh, sorry. The near store next to you is an hour and a half away. I don't know. It's definitely hard because it sounds nice.

Starting point is 00:02:44 Like you're saying. I got an example for you. This is a very city boy type of comment. So for example, Peyton is from Idaho, a small town in Idaho. There's no cheesecake factory. Hold it. You know what I'm saying? There is no cheesecake factory in Idaho.

Starting point is 00:03:03 Is there one in Idaho? Do you know? I don't know. Like in a different part. Maybe, we'll see. Okay, I guess what I'm trying to say is the nearest cheesecake factory is probably like three, four hours away.

Starting point is 00:03:12 It's just hard. Some people's talents are to be so just homemaker and cook and do all that stuff. And it's we are just not talented at it. Every time we try, we end up just having to go get McDonald's. I know it sounds bad, but maybe if I had like a little more free time,

Starting point is 00:03:32 you think you would go to cook? I, maybe. I would not. I don't enjoy it. Yeah, I know, I know. It's, I don't blame you. I don't, I mean, it doesn't bother me. But anyway, so I guess what I'm trying to say, if there is no cheesecake factory

Starting point is 00:03:49 within two hours of where you live, an hour of where you live, I won't live there. So if you know any places where I can, it's so fried mac and cheese balls. Those freaking fried mac and cheese balls. Those freaking fried mac and cheese balls. I'm telling you. They're called macaroni balls. Those things are- Gary loves those. Kiss.

Starting point is 00:04:11 Anyways, I could probably rant for a long time about this. Cheesecake sponsor me. That's your pick. That's my next goal is cheesecake factory. So if anyone here works at cheesecake factory, you don't even pay me. Just help me get free fried macaroni and cheese balls every single time I go. That's so funny. All right, well that was Garrett's 10 minutes. I mean 10 seconds and we're going to jump into our case sources.

Starting point is 00:04:39 This week, they're NBC Washington.com, Washington Post.com, newsweek.com, wtop.com, wusa9.com, CBS news, Fox 5 DC, LinkedIn, crime online, daily mail, Fairfax County Police Department news, Fairfax Times.com, and oxygen.com. Okay, so murder suicides are a complicated and tragic occurrence that don't often get the kind of media attention that other types of murderers do. People often think that a murder suicide happens only in other families and that it could not possibly happen in their own family. However, according to a recent article in Newsweek, these tragedies are not as rare as Americans

Starting point is 00:05:21 might think. In 2017, which is when our case took place, there were over 600 murder suicide incidents in the United States. The vast majority of these murder suicide cases are committed with a firearm by a man often in conjunction with an escalating pattern of domestic violence. So today we're going to Virginia, which is home to the Hagen family. Now Pamela Hagen, originally Pamela Denise Hanson, grew up in a small town in Illinois far from any notions of violence, and there probably wasn't a cheesecake factory there. Ambitious Anne Career minded Pamela or Pam, as she went, by left her small town midwest routes and moved to the east coast,

Starting point is 00:06:06 where she attended college at the State University of New York, pursuing an undergraduate degree in business administration. She later earned her master's in executive management human resources leadership from Rutgers University in New Jersey. So Pam worked her way up the ladder over the years and eventually attained an executive position at a major defense contractor where she worked for over 20 years and was promoted to VP of Human Resources and Workforce Strategy. Then in early 2015 she began working for a different defense contractor called SAIC. She began working there in Virginia where she was again the VP of Human Resources.

Starting point is 00:06:48 At this point, Pam married Steve Hagen, her husband at the time of our case, and she took on the name Pamela Hansen-Hagen. She and her husband Steve had three daughters, Megan Ashley and Helen. Now, Pam and Steve's marriage didn't last, however, and Pam and Steve divorced when their girls were still pretty young. There was a significant age gap between the two oldest girls, Megan and Ashley, and their younger sister, Helen. Now, Megan was 11 years older, and Ashley was 9 years older than Helen. So, they kind of had the two, and then waited a little bit and had the last one. Now growing up with a successful single mother, Megan and Ashley would sometimes take care of Helen, their little sister, when their mom traveled for work. So they kind of, in a sense, helped raise

Starting point is 00:07:35 her. Pam and her girls moved around after the divorce, mostly because of Pam's jobs. And at one point, they live in Maryland, just outside of DC. In addition to excelling at her jobs, Pam also does well financially, amassing a very impressive $8 million state. She is generous with her money, especially with her three girls, whom she's very proud of.

Starting point is 00:07:58 Pam buys a beautiful six bedroom house in McLean, Virginia, in 2015, right around the time that she switches that that job and begins working for SAIC. Now Steve, the girl's dad, is living nearby in sterling Virginia at the time, only 16 or 17 miles west of McLean. Now with this arrangement, the girls can easily spend time with both of their parents. In 2017, at the age of 63, Pam is certainly starting to think about retirement, but that notion is complicated by the fact that she's still supporting at least two of her daughters

Starting point is 00:08:36 as both Megan and Helen are living with her along with Megan's young daughter. So Pam still had many family and financial obligations and she's not alone at home. In 2017, Megan Hagen is 34. Ashley Hagen is 32 and Helen Hagen is 23. Helen had graduated college two years earlier in 2015 in Dallas, Texas. And she's described as driven and ambitious, though one friend says that Helen is still trying to kind of find her way in her career I mean, she's only 23. She double majored in math and management science. She was serious. She studied a lot and even worked during college as a waitress in Texas, which technically she didn't necessarily need to do because her mom was supporting her. So while working as a

Starting point is 00:09:25 waitress, she actually meets her boyfriend, Carlos Gutierrez, and he's still living in Texas. But there's talk about an engagement and him possibly coming to Virginia as well. Now Helen is reportedly in the midst of pursuing her masters at SMU to be earned in 2018, but her plans are a bit unclear, given that she returns to Virginia in early 2017. So she's just graduated college and she's basically deciding, do I want to go on and get my masters or am I done and I'm just going to pursue a career. And again, I said that the oldest daughter Megan is living at home. She's married, but her husband is in the military. And so she and their seven-year-old daughter are living in the Sixth-Bedroom house in Virginia with her mom. Megan volunteers in a program

Starting point is 00:10:11 to help dogs who have been rescued from war-torn countries. Apparently, her husband is living in West Virginia. It's not clear whether he ever gets deployed overseas, and they're kind of having a long distance marriage of sorts and she is unemployed, like I said, her mother was financially helping her. Megan has mentioned to at least one friend that Helen at this point in their lives in 2017, 23 year old Helen, who's living at home with her and her mom,

Starting point is 00:10:39 has been depressed and is struggling, like she's just hit that age, she's not doing very well. And then the middle daughter Ashley lives in Pennsylvania. So she's the only daughter not living with her mom in that six bedroom home in 2017. Because Helen has moved home from Texas to Virginia, Pam offers to buy her daughter a house in Northern Virginia. 23 year old Helen is like, yeah, I mean, I would love a house.

Starting point is 00:11:07 So it's in the process of being built. It's new. And Helen and Carlos are getting serious, like I said, but according to her older sister, Megan, their mom Pam doesn't approve of this relationship. By the summer of 2017, two adult daughters, one in her 30s and one in her 20s, like I said, have moved back home with their mom and Megan's seven-year-old daughter. And although this situation is kind of temporary because Helen is maybe eventually gonna get married and move out and of course, Megan is married

Starting point is 00:11:37 and might move out with her husband, it's not hard to imagine that perhaps tensions start to flare with these new living arrangements. I mean, they're all adults living under the same roof. And this is a pretty big transition for everyone. So now you're all caught up. And that takes us to July 14, 2017. This is sometime between 1 p.m. and 2 p.m.

Starting point is 00:12:00 A 911 operator in Fairfax County receives a call from someone claiming that they're calling from out of state and that they have information that someone might be in danger at the Hagen household. However, the caller doesn't know the Hagen's exact address. The 9-1-1 dispatcher tells the caller to file a report in their home state first, and that Fairfax County would then need a teletype of that report before it will respond to the call. So the caller tries 911 again a few minutes later, apparently urgent. This time they have the address for the Hagen household.

Starting point is 00:12:40 The caller says that someone has been murdered in the house and someone else is potentially in danger. This second call apparently rouses enough alarm bells for 911 personnel to dispatch police to the Hagen home. Okay, so why wouldn't they the first time? I don't think they thought that there was a true danger going on there. But no, you're completely right. They probably should have just went the first time. Yeah, interesting. I mean, it's hard, but yeah. So shortly after 2 p.m. on July 14th, the police arrive at the Harkens home on Dean Drive. This is the six bedroom home where Megan and her daughter, her mom and Helen are all living. However, when police get there,

Starting point is 00:13:22 no one is responding at the house. Officers try multiple times to get an answer, presumably by trying at the doors and windows and by calling, but there's no answer. Officers are getting increasingly worried and they notify the neighbors with a reverse 911 call to stay inside their homes while the police investigate what's going on in there. There are no doors or windows open, so the officers have to force their way into the Hagen House, and they enter the home shortly before 3pm that summer day. Now please, again, keep in mind, this is a large two-story house with a basement, so there's a lot of ground to cover.

Starting point is 00:14:00 The police start by checking the ground floor first and there on the first floor they find a woman's body and it's Pam Hagen the mom She's faced down on the floor of the laundry room her body or at least her head is covered or wrapped in a blanket and sitting on top of the blanket Is her cell phone the police see shell casings around her body and she's clearly been shot to death. On even higher alert now, officers go upstairs and this is where they find a second woman's body. Pam's youngest daughter Helen's body is upstairs in a bathroom, so Pam and then Helen. She also appears to have been shot to death. She has a massive wound to the head. But that's not all that the police see in the bathroom. They also find the murder weapon.

Starting point is 00:14:50 Helen is lying on the floor with a rifle wedged between her legs. According to CBS News, the rifle was leaning against Helen's body. The butt was on the floor between her legs. The barrel was pointed up towards the ceiling. Oh, okay. Both women are pronounced dead at the scene. The police searched the rest of the house, looking for any other victims, but thankfully, no one else is at the house. And they immediately start interviewing the neighbors.

Starting point is 00:15:16 That's when the police learned that Megan and her young daughter also live in the house, but they're not there. Some of the neighbors don't even know Helen, and didn't even realize that Helen, the youngest daughter, had even moved back in with her mom since it had happened that recently. The neighbors are incredibly relieved to find out that the little girl though, Megan's daughter, isn't there.

Starting point is 00:15:37 At the time the bodies are discovered, Megan and her young daughter are actually perfectly safe and sound in a car on their way to their new home in West Virginia. The police notify Steve Hagen, this is Pam's ex-husband, that Pam and Helen have been shot to death in Pam's home. Steve is told that Helen's wound was self-inflicted by the looks of it. So since Steve, the dad has now been told about the events,

Starting point is 00:16:03 he calls the other two daughters, Megan, who lives with Pam and Ashley, who lives away from home, and they both begin driving to his house and sterling. Now, it's not clear exactly what he tells them or how much information the two receive at this point. But either way, it seems that both daughters are at the dad's house when the police arrive to interview them all. And these interviews are tape recorded by the police.

Starting point is 00:16:27 There is a tape of the two girls screaming and whaling when they find out the news about their mom and sister. This show is sponsored by BetterHelp. Have you ever found yourself at a crossroads unsure of which direction to take in life? We all face those moments of uncertainty where the right path seems elusive. But guess what, there's a solution that can help you find clarity and confidence. And that's therapy. As you guys know, I talk about therapy all the time.

Starting point is 00:16:52 I go to therapy weekly. I definitely am a big supporter of it. It's helped me manage my stress and anxiety and really helped me work through difficult times. Therapy is not just for major traumas. It's for anyone who wants to learn positive coping skills, set healthy boundaries, and become the best version of themselves. It's about staying connected to what truly matters, as you navigate life's challenges. Here's how it works.

Starting point is 00:17:15 Simply fill out a brief questionnaire and better help will match you with a licensed therapist who meets your specific needs. And if you ever feel they need to switch their pissed, you can do so at no additional charge. That therapy be your map to a better life. Visit betterhelp.com slash husband today and get 10% off your first month. That's betterhelp. H-E-L-P.com slash husband. Jumping into an ad and it is native.

Starting point is 00:17:40 I use their body wash, I use their shampoo, we use their sunscreen, everything. Or deodorant. We are big native fans over here. And the funny thing is is I caught myself wanting to buy native products at stores. And then I was like, why am I doing that? Murder with my husband literally has a code. You can use promo code husband and get money off your native purchases.

Starting point is 00:18:03 So go do it. Native sunscreen offers a quickly absorbing ultra shear and lightweight formula that cold husband and get money off your native purchases, so go do it. Native sunscreen offers a quickly absorbing ultra-shear and lightweight formula that hydrates your skin while providing broad spectrum SPF30 protection from harmful UVA and UVB rays. And Native sunscreen offers three delightful scents, coconut and pineapple, rosé, and sweet peach in nectar. They're also for your face and body. I use them every day. But if you prefer unscented, they've got you covered too.

Starting point is 00:18:28 Give your skin the protection it deserves with natives and mineral sunscreens. Go to nativedo.com slash husband or use promo code husband at checkout to get 20% off your first order. That's native.deo.com slash husband or use promo code husband at checkout. nativedo.com slash husband and use promo code husband.

Starting point is 00:18:46 Megan is the one who's able to provide the police with the most information because she lived with the both of them. She tells them that she was there at the house with Pam and Helen earlier that day and she left around 1.30 p.m. She tells police that Helen and their mom had been arguing that day.

Starting point is 00:19:02 And as quoted by CBS News and according to the police tape, Megan says, Helen has been so angry, just angry all the time, struggling emotionally. I knew she was depressed, but not like this. I just can't wrap my head around it. She and Ashley both tell police that Helen had talked about hurting herself at least once during the past. So at some point in the past, Megan then tells police that their mom didn't approve of Helen and Carlos's relationship and their mom didn't want him moving into the house

Starting point is 00:19:32 that she was currently building for 23 year old Helen. Court of CBS News, Megan says this morning, my mom let Helen know that she was canceling the contract on the house she's building her because she truly believed that Helen was gonna try to move Carlos into the house and my mom didn't want him being there. So she says Helen that morning was told that she's no longer getting a house. Megan also says that their mom and Helen were arguing over Helen's drug use. Apparently,

Starting point is 00:19:58 other family members confirmed that Pam was worried about Helen using drugs. Megan then tells the police something else. She informs them that she'd seen two suspicious men in the neighborhood just the day before. She'd noticed them particularly as she thought they appeared to be casing the neighborhood. Megan says this? Yes. Okay.

Starting point is 00:20:17 I'm sure how it went was the police are like, can you tell us anything she says, yes, she was depressed. And then they said, have you noticed anything suspicious? And she says, oh, she was depressed. And then they said, have you noticed anything suspicious? And she says, oh, now that you say that, I actually did notice. Yes, I'm sure that it was kind of led to that. But either way, of course, police begin investigating this as a possible

Starting point is 00:20:35 lead, even though they believe that it probably is most likely a murder suicide. But they also want to find out where the murder weapon, a 22 ruger rifle came from. Megan is able to tell them that as well. It belongs to Megan's husband, who's in the military. She and her husband were in the process of buying their own home in West Virginia, and Megan's mom had allowed Megan to store the rifle at the house until they moved into their own home.

Starting point is 00:20:59 Megan says that she brought the rifle upstairs from protection just the day before because she was worried about those two men that she'd spotted in the neighborhood. After all, it's three women and one young girl living in the house alone. So she was like, you know, I'm smart. I have this gun. I thought I would use it to protect myself. So I moved it upstairs. Megan also tells police that just the day before her mom had helped Megan and her husband

Starting point is 00:21:24 buy their home. So all of this is like brand new and happening just in these last couple days. So today goes on and later that evening the police publicly announced that there doesn't appear to be any threat to public safety. This is what police say when they're pretty confident that they're dealing with a murderous side. Ashley, however, gets a strange and disturbing phone call that night. It's from Carlos. This is Helen's boyfriend.

Starting point is 00:21:49 He says he's calling from Texas. And he reveals that he's the one who made the 911 call Saturday. So Carlos, Helen's boyfriend who lives in Texas is the one who called 911 that day. First of all, why would he call and say that? To Ashley. Yeah, to Ashley, not even to, yeah, that doesn't make any sense.

Starting point is 00:22:11 Well, this is why she's shaken. He calls, he says, he's heartbroken and he's also scared. And I'm sure she's like, how did you know that there had been murder? Oh, he was on the phone with her. Wasn't he? Carlos tells Ashley that at around 1130 that morning, Helen had called him on her cell phone. Remember, her cell phone was found near her body. He says that he's still living in Dallas, Texas, where he and Helen first met and he's more than a thousand miles away at this point.

Starting point is 00:22:41 Helen is calling him to say that Megan, her older sister, had just murdered her mom. Okay. She's sobbing on the phone. She's frightened, but she tells Carlos to stay calm and quiet. Helen says that Megan came into her room to announce that she just shot their mother and that then Megan went downstairs and is busy on the computer trying to transfer money from their mother's accounts and that's while Helen is like quietly calling Carlos. Now according to the Daily Mail, Megan also tells Helen which she repeats to Carlos during the phone call that morning that their mom had caught her doing an escort deal and that

Starting point is 00:23:24 she was afraid her mom was going to try to take her daughter away from her. So Carlos tells Helen to call 911. He's like, well, if your sister just shot your mom, you need to call 911 and leave the house immediately. But Helen refuses. She mentions that her young niece Megan's daughter is still in the house and she doesn't want to leave without her. She's not sure how to get her niece to safety. According to Carlos, by 1.15 pm, Helen had stopped answering her phone. So Carlos keeps trying to reach her. He keeps calling and according to one source, Megan actually answers her phone at one point.

Starting point is 00:23:59 And Carlos either talks to her or receives a text from the phone saying, everything is fine. I'm not mad at Megan. So she's someone's pretending to be Helen. So just to confirm Megan came down to Helen, basically said, look, I shot my mom. I shot our mom. Yeah.

Starting point is 00:24:15 And then after that, she went and called Carlos, correct? Yes. Wow, her sister Megan is supposedly on the computer, trying to transfer money from her mom's account, her now dead mom's account to her account. That's weird. And Carlos is saying, call 911. And she's saying, I can't.

Starting point is 00:24:34 I don't want to leave the house. I don't want to put my niece who's still in the house in danger. So not long after 1.15 pm, Carlos decides to call an emergency number for Fairfax County, Virginia, which is the correct jurisdiction. And reports that he thinks his girlfriend's life is in danger and that he thinks someone might already be dead at their house. He's saying his girlfriend won't answer the phone. However, Carlos gets the run around from the 911 person on the phone. Obviously, Carlos doesn't have the Haraigan's home address like we talked about.

Starting point is 00:25:08 So rather than responding to the scene that he's describing as an emergency life or death situation, they're trying to get him to follow a very complicated procedure. So again, he calls back 15 minutes later with the address. And in the second call, he mentions that Helen had told him that her sister Megan had killed their mom. So that's on the 911 phone the second 911 call. And on the call 911

Starting point is 00:25:32 operator goes, okay, well this was out of the blue. Your girlfriend is just sitting in a house with a dead woman. Yeah. And Carlos is like, yes, but I want you to go make sure that my girlfriend's okay, because now she's not answering the phone. Okay. So now let's go back to please come. Sisters go to dad's house and then Ashley gets this call from Carlos and Carlos calls and says, no, no, no, this is not a murder suicide. Megan killed your mom and your sister. And Ashley refuses to believe it. He's like, absolutely not Megan did not do this. She would never do that. Megan's friends are interviewed as well

Starting point is 00:26:10 and they all agree. Megan would never do this. Megan would not do an escort deal. She wouldn't kill our mom. The gun was found in Helen. We know Helen was depressed. We know that she has tried to get us to- Which is funny because Helen literally called Carlos

Starting point is 00:26:24 and said, Megan just killed our mom. Well, tried to get. It's just funny because Helen literally called Carlos and said, making just killed our mom. Well, according to Carlos. True, I guess that's true. I don't know, man, I believe Carlos. You know what I'm saying? Then believe Carlos. All right, let's keep it going, let's hear. So lead homicide detective Brian Byerson

Starting point is 00:26:41 and crime scene detective Julia Elliott are quickly assigned to the case. And the detectives are on the scene and planning to stay at the house all night investigating and they also set up a tip line. By 6.20 am the following morning, this is July 15, 2017, the news media is reporting that the police have identified the bodies as Pam and Helen. The police announced to the public that this was a murder suicide. They released the following statement. Detectives working through the night have now determined the identities as well as the sequence of events leading to their deaths. They tell the public that 23-year-old Helen shot her mother, Pam, and then shot herself. And they want to reassure neighbors

Starting point is 00:27:20 that the seven-year-old child who lived at the home was not home at the time of the incident and she's safe with her mother. Also, all of the family dogs have been accounted for. I just had to include that. But not everything in the police's public statement will necessarily turn out to be true. So what is like at this point, what are Megan and Ashley talking about? You know? Yeah, like has Ashley told Megan that Carlos called her and said she did it. Like yeah, is Megan just like making up an entire story? Like what's...

Starting point is 00:27:48 Or is Megan telling the truth? Or what's happening? Yeah, that's true, Tim. I don't know. I'm a firm believer in Carlos at the moment. You're not the only one because the detectives feel like maybe the officers spoke to the public too soon. There are several things about this whole thing

Starting point is 00:28:05 that just don't seem right to them. The detectives don't want to immediately accept the murder suicide theory without doing good police work and without conducting a complete and full investigation. And given Carlos's story about the phone call he received from Helen, and given that Megan had been in the house that day, the detectives decide to test

Starting point is 00:28:25 Megan's hands for gunshot residue. And crime scene detective Elliott carefully comes through the house looking for evidence as this is being done. So one thing about the crime scene that kind of bothers them is Pam and Helen were found with a lot of blood. There was a lot of blood all over them. But the rifle is found relatively blood-free. Because she obviously cleaned it off before she put it where she needed to put it.

Starting point is 00:28:54 If Helen actually used the rifle on herself, there probably would have been blood on it. For sure. Given where it was found, leaning against Helen's body in between her legs, they would have expected blood. Also, all of the shell casings are found in the laundry room. Police obtained a search warrant for the hargan home at this point and even though it's a crime scene, it's important to be safe and get a search warrant. The police start scouring the rest of the house for any evidence and in doing so, they are looking around the house trying to get information on the family and they come across

Starting point is 00:29:23 some photo albums in the basement. And according to CBS News, tucked away in the album of Family Photos was something that seemed out of place. Documents, Megan's bank statement, Pams 2, and a spreadsheet full of passwords and a security verification details to unlock all of Pam Harkin's bank accounts. It's just like found stuffed inside this photo album. The scope of the search warrant doesn't include obtaining financial documents so the police don't have the authority to seize these. They do however take photographs of the documents and

Starting point is 00:29:56 then put them back in the photo album. Later that day after the shootings this is July 15th. Control of the house is given back to the Harkin family. The police can't just steal the house off and not allow anyone to enter it indefinitely as it's a home that people still live in. The autopsies are also performed on July 15th and the results come back the same day. And they revealed together the two women were shot

Starting point is 00:30:20 a total of five times. Furthermore, Helen's autopsie reveals something highly unexpected. Helen was shot in the top of her head, not in her chin. So when they originally looked at the wound, they were like, oh, she put it under her chin. Now they're like, that's the exit wound. So 100% she did not commit suicide. Right. The bullet went down. We're not upward. Now detectives have never come across anyone who shot themselves with a rifle in the top of their own head.

Starting point is 00:30:50 And they don't even think it's possible, like you said. So they conclude based on this, that Helen did not pull the trigger, which means this case was not a murder suicide, despite the fact that they've already announced that to the public, and they now believe they're dealing with a double murder. Now, on Monday, July 17th, Capital One Bank reaches out to the detectives on the case with

Starting point is 00:31:09 some interesting information. The bank employees have of course heard about Pam's murder and they feel they should report some suspicious activity on Pam's bank accounts just in case it's somehow connected to her murder. The bank tells police that Pam had called them on July 13th the day before the murder asking to do a wire transfer in the amount of $400,000. Whoa This wire transfer is going from her account to a real estate company in West Virginia

Starting point is 00:31:37 Now if you remember West Virginia is where Megan is moving with her husband This is where she's buying a house. The caller answered all of the security questions correctly. However, there was some kind of mix up and the transfer doesn't go through. So Pam called again on July 14th, the day of the murders. She said the wire transfer needed to go through that day and that the real estate company

Starting point is 00:32:01 needed those funds right away. The bank explains to police that they called Pam back to verify and that Pam denied making any of these calls. So the bank then froze the funds after speaking with Pam. That means someone was impersonating Pam on the phone, but answered all of the questions correctly. At this point, police decide to call Megan and ask to interview her again, which I'm kind of like, okay, Carlos literally said on the 911 call that to call Megan and ask to interview her again, which I'm kind of like, okay.

Starting point is 00:32:26 Carlos literally said on the 911 call that it was Megan and it's now taking you four days. I know let you have to be fair, but it's also like in the 911 call you had the name of the suspect. The four days is pretty good though. They're moving pretty thing fast on the investigation. Sure, but I'm just kind of annoyed. Yeah, I know you're saying. Because if she was the husband He would probably already be I mean statistically that's just how it is I mean men are all likely to right right right someone that a woman is so so

Starting point is 00:32:56 Megan comes in she talks about Helen's depression again and she talks about the two strange men in the neighborhood I knew Carlos is right. He my man So the two strange men in the neighborhood. I knew Carlos was right. He, my man. So police are like, hey, we've investigated the, the strange man. And we found no other tips for anyone else who saw them, no evidence that those men were even there. Megan also says something about the wire transfers being a mix up at the bank and that there were nothing suspicious. So when they confirm about that, she's like, no, no, no, no, that was just a mix up.

Starting point is 00:33:25 Like the bank just messed up. It was weird. So on July 19, 2017, Megan tells police she wants to come in for an update on the case because they let her go after that interview and detectives invite her into the police station. She goes in and she talks and she talks. She's there for more than four hours. Oh, my God.

Starting point is 00:33:44 And Megan insists it was her mom who called the bank to make those wire transfers. She's like, okay, no, now I'm telling you those wire transfers were my mom. But you know how whenever you're on the phone and the message says that your call may be recorded for quality insurance. Oh, no. Well, the bank, the bank was recording these calls like they do and the bank still has the tapes of these phone calls Oh, wait, I didn't even think about that. Okay, you guys we are getting into an ad I know you guys have both heard the story about how Garrett and I were both paying separately for peacock

Starting point is 00:34:16 And then we used rocket money and realized how dumb we are and our so happy rocket money helped us stop doing that Rocket money is a personal finance app that finds and cancels your unwanted subscriptions, monitors your spending and helps you lower your bills all in one place. And like Payton said, I'm always on it, checking things out, seeing what's going on, seeing how many Amazon packages Peyton are buying. Is that how you find out about my Amazon packages?

Starting point is 00:34:39 No, I just get emails. Oh my email on the account. Gosh. Over 3 million people have already used rocket money saving the average person of the 720 lbs a year. Imagine what you could do with that extra cash and your pocket. Stop throwing your money away, cancel unwanted subscriptions and manage your expenses the easy way.

Starting point is 00:34:56 By going to rocket money.com slash husband. That's rocket money.com slash husband. Rocket money.com slash husband rocket money dot com slash husband. This summer, he XU energy is back. This ultimate summer past, starting 50% off energy charges all summer. Everybody's on for automatic energy savings plus free energy on the hottest day. Don't you see free days are now the coolest days? Is this summer's hottest blood flow? Sure.

Starting point is 00:35:21 Guaranteed keep you cool. The savings for coming from inside the house. Open it summer path. Energy savings and results so cool. Yes, you energy, energy for everything. Captain Banner now to learn more. And the police now have the tapes, and they play them for Megan. And who do you think's voice is pretending to be Pam?

Starting point is 00:35:41 And now it's happening right in front of her. And so then she has to openly admit to police, okay, actually I am the one that made those calls because now you're playing them right in front of me. She says she lied about it because she thought it would look bad that she'd been impersonating her mom right before her mom was shot. Megan insists however, but I haven't killed anyone. Oddly though, without actually confessing to the murders, Megan begins telling the police that they can blame her. She goes, just blame me. My family's been through enough, just blame

Starting point is 00:36:10 me so they can move on from this. Okay. She reportedly fells the polygraph three times. Which, doesn't mean anything. I mean, it does, but as we know, it doesn't end court. Well, for police, they're thinking, okay, I'm pretty, pretty certain that Megan was the killer. Yeah. Like she impersonated her at the bank the day before we have the tapes and now she's coming in acting all weird. It's also kind of weird. She goes just blame me like it's a game like no, you're gonna get charged. Like they're playing clue for murder. Yeah. Yeah. Like just blame me and then you guys can win. And although they have Carlos on tape saying no, literally the victim Helen called me and told me that Megan did this,

Starting point is 00:36:49 they need to build their case. So they let Megan walk out of this interview. They need to make sure that the county's attorney's office says there's a strong enough case against Megan in order to proceed with an arrest. So they decide to actually get a warrant for another search on the home and during this search they find those financial documents are no longer in the photo album down in the basement. Someone with access to the house had removed them. Discovering this, the investigation continues and police are assembling forensic evidence. The stronger the forensics, the stronger their case will be, obviously. And the DNA results come back on the rifle. There is no DNA from Megan on the rifle. Confusingly, DNA is found on the trigger that doesn't belong to Megan

Starting point is 00:37:37 or to Helen, though. The lab does find Helen's DNA on the rifle case. Detective Byerson tells CBS News that Helen's DNA was only found on the rifle's case handles, not on the rifle itself, which makes law enforcement believe that Helen hadn't actually touched the rifle that day, he'd just probably touched it while it was in the home. No usable fingerprints were ever found on the rifle. As for Helen's cell phone, it was found on the bathroom counter, not far from her body. The crime lab finds that it has very little blood on it

Starting point is 00:38:10 and no fingerprints. But law enforcement can't help but wonder why aren't Helen's prints on her own phone? Like had it been wiped down? Oh, yeah, for sure. How would it assume? Yes, and this is a smartphone smartphone like it's a glass screen. Yeah.

Starting point is 00:38:26 Detectives think it's suspicious that the that Helen's prints aren't on the phone, even though she was using it shortly before she was shot, according to Carlos. Now, while all of this is happening, Megan and her husband qualify for a loan and they buy a different home in West Virginia, and they move away and they're living in West Virginia with their daughter. Now detectives watch Megan month after month and they continue to amass the physical evidence for over a year. One piece of evidence is that Megan did have gunshot residue on both of her hands. By November 15, 2017, news reports are coming out based on newly released information that this

Starting point is 00:39:02 may have not been a murder suicide and was probably a double murder. Law enforcement is releasing information that has previously been sealed in the search warrant applications and the public learns that a search warrant also indicated that someone tried to fraudulently wire money out of Pam's account both on the day before and the day of the murder. So now the public are learning that all is not what it seems. A year later, 16 months since the two women were found shot to death in their home, prosecutors feel they have enough. Megan is indicted by a grand jury on two counts of first degree murder and two

Starting point is 00:39:35 counts of using a firearm. A 740 AM, the next day, this would be November 9, 2018. Megan, who is now 35, is arrested for murdering her mother and her sister. I wonder what her husband thought this entire time. Just assume she didn't do it. I can't. Same with Ashley. She's assumed. Yeah, what point does Ashley's mind change or did it ever? I know. Police search her home and there they make a big discovery that sheet of paper that went missing from the photo album.

Starting point is 00:40:07 It's there. Yep, it's the piece of paper with the list of passwords to all of Pam's accounts. Remember the one that went missing? Remember how Megan somehow had all of this information on the bank calls? Yeah. Megan is a rain and pleads not guilty. However, along with the rest of the world, her trial is delayed because of COVID-19. In March of 2022, nearly five years after the shootings, the murder case against Megan finally proceeds to trial.

Starting point is 00:40:34 And it lasts three weeks. The theory is that Megan wanted to buy a house so badly that she was willing to sell $400,000 from her mother and then when that didn't work work she killed her for the money. Oh my gosh. And then the prosecution also states in its opening that another motive was Megan's jealousy of her younger sister Helen and the fact that mom was buying Helen a house and not her. There's also the theory that Megan figures out the Helen called Carlos and so now she feels like she has to get rid of Helen.

Starting point is 00:41:05 Obviously, how do you kill your own mom and then your own sister as well? Right. Oh, that's insane. Carlos obviously testifies says no. Helen told me herself that Megan had just killed her mother and he had tried to tell police. He called 911. So you asked about Ashley and I will say, although she doesn't like come right out and say it,

Starting point is 00:41:27 at the trial she does testify on behalf of the prosecution to try to get conviction against her sister Megan. So I would say she now is no longer team Megan. And finally on March 24th, 2022, the case goes to the jury. And after deliberating for less than two days, on Monday, March 28th, the jury convicts Megan Hagen of two counts of first degree murder and two counts of using a firearm. Now, after the verdict, as is common in a big case, the defense investigates what happened during those jury deliberations. So after a guilty or non-gilted comes out,

Starting point is 00:42:06 the defense team will go in and say, okay, well, why? Like, what happened in the jury room? Why did you vote the way you did? And during this, they find out that one of the jurors went home and used her own rifle to see if Helen could have shot herself in the way the defense claims she did. This juror tried to reenact this scenario to see if it was possible for Helen to have used her toe to pull the trigger of the 22 rifle to shoot herself in the chin like they said she did.

Starting point is 00:42:38 The juror concluded that it was impossible. Is that allowed? No. You can't do that. No, and the juror then went and shared the results of this with all of the other jurors telling him, Helmi, she's out of jail. Well, because of all of this, the judge grants the defense motion to vacate the conviction because of juror misconduct. Wow. Because they broke the rules. Okay. So can you retrial? Well, she's still in custody,

Starting point is 00:43:05 but a new trial date has not yet been set. Oh, so she is in jail. She is in custody, yes, but they're just waiting for another trial. So she's gonna have to be tried again. I'm surprised she's not out on, surprise she's not out. Or just like on a home arrest or something,

Starting point is 00:43:20 because it's been, right. I mean, it's been vacated. I'm gonna assume because it only got thrown out just because of your misconduct. been, I mean, it's been vacated. I'm gonna assume because it only got thrown out just because of your misconduct. I mean, which, I mean, feels like it's kind of a big deal. But it's interesting you can't do that because they were seeing if it's possible.

Starting point is 00:43:37 It wasn't possible. So there we go. It was her, right? It's more like the prosecution should have maybe answered that question for them. A trial so she didn't have to go home and do it by herself. That's true. Uh-huh.

Starting point is 00:43:48 But also what if it was possible and then the prosecution is like, oh shoot. It is possible. You know what I mean? So the aftermath of this is Megan and her husband have since divorced and their daughter is living with her father in a different state. Yeah. That's going to ask about the husband as well. I mean, that it tore so many people apart.

Starting point is 00:44:08 Yeah. Ruined so many lives. A year after the murder, the house is sold according to Redfinn. The house is resold. And like I said, she remains in custody. And she's still to this day, so she's innocent. So I'll keep you guys posted on any new developments in this case if we ever hear an update. In the midst of all these legal maneuvering, so let's please not forget the victims here. Pamela Hagen and Helen Hagen were two amazing

Starting point is 00:44:35 lovely women who were accomplished and who were dearly loved and respected by their friends and family. So let's please remember them today as we wait to hear if there's ever any updates. And that is the case of the Hargan family. Oh, it's crazy what money can do. I know. Right, because you would probably like Ashley, you'd probably think like my sister, this girl could never do something like that. Yeah.

Starting point is 00:45:01 And then I don't know, I guess money can just drive you to do something insane Well, that's why I started the case out the way I did and saying the statistics are this probably this is a lot more Common than we think it is and again it usually is domestic violence situation Yeah, but you never think it's gonna be you you always think it's gonna be another family It's always so surprising when it does happen. Crazy. Alright, that is our case and we will see you next week with another episode. I love it.

Starting point is 00:45:32 And I hate it. Goodbye. you

Murder With My Husband - 158. Pam and Helen Hargan - Murder Suicide?

There aren't comments yet for this episode. Click on any sentence in the transcript to leave a comment.