Murder With My Husband - 163. Matthew Leveson - The Palm Tree Mystery feat. Mile Higher

Episode Date: May 8, 2023

On this episode of MWMH, Payton and Garrett are joined by Kendall Rae and Josh from the Mile Higher Podcast to discuss the disappearance of Matthew Leveson. Mile Higher Podcast: https://milehigherpodcast.carrd.co/ MWMH links and socials: https://linktr.ee/murderwithmyhusband Case Sources: The Sydney Morning Herald, “Murder fears for missing gay man, 20,” by John Kidman and Anthony Stavrinos, October 14, 2007   The Sydney Morning Herald, “Matthew murder mystery: lover charged,” by Arjun Ramachandran and Dylan Welch, August 6, 2008   The Sydney Morning Herald, “Matthew Leveson’s lover says he bought duct tape and mattock because he was a keen gardener,” by Melanie Kembrey, November 1, 2016   The Sydney Morning Herald, “Michael Atkins can’t recall what happened to mattock after Matthew Leveson vanished,” by AAP, November 2, 2016   The Sydney Morning Herald, “National Park remains confirmed as belonging to Matthew Leveson,” by AAP, June 5, 2017   The Sydney Morning Herald, “Why a man acquitted over Matthew Leveson’s death led police to his body,” by Ava Benny-Morrison, August 23, 2017   The Weekend Australian, theaustralian.com.au, “Not guilty verdict doesn’t mean innocent, says Matthew Leveson’s family,” by Margaret Scheikowski, October 20, 2009   Coroners.nsw.gov.au, “Coroners Court of New South Wales, decision of Magistrate E. Truscott dated August 25, 2017   Special Broadcasting Service, sbs.com.au, “The Lost Boy,” by Ian Cuthbertson, March 19, 2016   Special Broadcasting Service, sbs.com.au, “Matthew Leveson’s parents take home tree his remains were found beneath,” no author provided, June 5, 2017   Special Broadcasting Service, sbs.com.au, “’Relief, anger’: Matthew Leveson’s parents respond to coroner’s inquest open finding,” no author provided, December 5, 2017, updated December 6, 2017   Dailymail.co.uk, “Parents’ grim three-word warning to young men about the predator who buried their son face-up in a shallow grave as he’s STILL on the prowl for lovers: ‘They need to know,’” by Candace Sutton, October 14, 2022   ABC news, abc.net.au, “Matthew Leveson’s family ‘have searched crime scene before’ looking for missing son,” by Jessica Kidd, November 10, 2016   ABC news, abc.net.au, “Matthew Leveson: Coroner visits bushland site on day six of search for body,” by Ursula Malone, November 15, 2016   ABC news, abc.net.au, “Matthew Leveson: Search for body south of Sydney called off after eight days,” by Ursula Malone, November 16, 2016   ABC news, abc.net.au, “Matthew Leveson case: Can Michael Atkins be tried for boyfriend’s murder again?” by Jessica Kidd and Lucy Carter, June 2, 2017   ABC news, abc.net.au, “Matthew Leveson’s parents tell of fears they would never find son’s body,” by Nicole Chettle, August 24, 2017   ABC News, abc.net.au, “Matthew Leveson inquest: Lies told by boyfriend Michael Atkins but no cause of death found, coroner rules,” by Nicole Chettle and Clare Blumer, December 4, 2017, updated December 5, 2017   Clip from 60 Minutes Australia   Yahoo news, au.news.yahoo.com, “Confronting moment Matthew Leveson’s parents show photos of their son’s bones,” by Yahoo7 and Agencies, August 25, 2017   The Daily Telegraph, “Matthew Leveson inquest: Mum breaks down after hearing son was strangled or smothered to death,” by Janet Fife-Yeomans, October 3, 2017   This Old House, thisoldhouse.com, “The 5 Best Pickaxes (2023 Review), by This Old House Reviews Team   News.com.au, “The shrinking world of Michael Atkins,” by Candace Sutton, March 5, 2017   9news.com.au, “Matthew Leveson: ‘You wanna know how he died?’ by Grace Tobin, July 31, 2018   New Zealand Herald, Nzherald.co.nz, “Ex-lover of Matthew Leveson confessed how he dies, leads police to body,” by news.com.au, August 23, 2017   Assisted research and writing by Diane Birnholz Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hey everybody welcome back to our podcast. This is murder with my husband. I'm Payton Moreland and I'm Garrett Moreland and he's the husband and I'm the husband if you are watching on YouTube are set definitely looks different right now and if you are listening on audio We might even sound a little bit different and that is because we are doing something today that we have never done on this show We have been trying to do this for a while now, and we have two special people here, Kendall and Josh. They are from Mile Higher Podcast, Mile Higher Media. If you don't know who Kendall and Josh are,

let's hear about it. Howdy, people. What's up? We are so excited to be here today. We've been planning this collaboration with Garrett and Peyton for quite some time after many failed attempts for many reasons. They literally came all the way out to Colorado

over the summer and we talked about it more on our episode exactly what happened. Yeah. Did we forget? Life happens, yeah. And then they tried to come again recently. That didn't work out. So here we are, third times a charm.

And we are so excited to be on your show. We are so excited to have you guys, like our listeners have been commenting because I think we teased it last time and then it didn't even happen. And they were so pumped for it. So I'm seriously so excited that it's actually happening granted.

This isn't edited and up yet. But I know everything is gonna run smoothly. Yeah, really. Until it's on the internet, we don't believe it's gonna actually make it to the finish line. And it's so perfect because it's another husband and wife duo as well. Yeah.

It's just perfect for us. Yeah, exactly. Really is so perfect. Why don't you guys tell a little bit about yourself for those who maybe don't know of you. Yeah. Yeah, so starting with myself, I have been on the interwebs for a very long time.

I have a YouTube channel called True Crime with Kendall Ray. I've been doing that channel for going on 11 years, so I am old. She's an icon in the True Crime community. It's amazing. If you have not checked it out, go and check it out. Oh, I appreciate that. Yes, so much fun. I started with that, really got fascinated by True Crime,

and eventually started another podcast called My All Higher Podcast with my husband here, Josh. What's up? What's up? And we've been doing that since 2017, 2018. Yeah, I think we started the beginning of 2018. Was there a first episode? And we've been doing it ever since. Yep, so we cover a wide variety of topics, everything from mysteries, true crime, paranormal,

a little bit of conspiracy, just kind of a little bit of everything. Anything that makes you think. That's right. We like to think outside the box about cases and theories out there and ponder the deepest questions of the universe occasionally. Things get quite deep over here. Sometimes we can't quite find our way out of the rabbit hole, but we have a good time. So we do. That kind of actually happened. We just recorded our episode for mile hired, and we kind of got stuck in a rabbit hole. We did. We could not find our way out even by the end.

Yeah, we literally had to have a vote at the end of what we all thought happened. Yeah, that was kind of like all you guys were like leaning one way at the beginning and then by the end of it, we're all just kind of like, it's crazy. Our minds are blown. Yeah, yeah. We'll wait. I'm still stuck on it. Yeah, it's like one of those I went home and continued to think about.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Now, on today's episode one of those I went home and continued to think about. Yeah, yeah. Now, on today's episode of Mile Hire, we have two guests joining us, Hayton and Garrett from Murder with my husband. Hi, everyone. I'm a mysterious murder case in Aspen, the first murder there in 12 years. Why is Nancy S. already speculating that Nancy killed herself? I need you to tell me exactly what happened. My friend is in your closet. Nancy S already speculating that Nancy killed herself.

She disrespected me like no other person has ever done. Oh, that was the wrong reaction. He must be guilty. You get bad landlords all the time. You don't go off and kill them. When he saw Nancy, he's just peacefully sleeping there. Something just flipped in him. My mom could never hurt anything or hurt anyone.

I just think there is no way he could have done that alone. He also wrote, be careful what you ask for. You may get more than you expect. We just recorded our episode for mile higher that you can actually check out on Wednesday when it drops. You guys will need to go check that out. And Josh, you actually have another podcast as well. Oh, I do.

Yes, so if you're into the darker side of True Crime, I cover a lot of very, very disturbing cases, cults, I get into a lot of hauntings, demonic possession. I kind of have a dark side to me, I guess. So, you know, my Ohio, I wasn't able to go quite as deep into the darkness as I wanted to, so- Sagitt skirt. You feel a little scared, so I was like, you know what, I got to start a show. And the show is called Lights Out.

It's on YouTube, Spotify, everywhere that you get a podcast. And it's kind of a different show because it's a little, it's definitely got some conversation there, but I kind of create like an immersive experience. So there's sound effects and a little bit of music in there. And it kind of really, you know, let's just say people leave the episode with chills

most of the time. So it's one of those types of shows. So if you want to check that out, I'd love for you to join us. I lights out every Friday. It's amazing. Again, we are so happy to have them on and we're also really excited for all of you listeners

to get to know them through our episode. So I think it's going to be great. And today we are doing something totally different for us. We always come into our episodes very prepared and we really know the case front and back, but today we wanted to have a new experience where you guys kind of, we get to be Garrett.

Yeah. Yeah. Everyone's just being a little bit more than Garrett. So excited to be Garrett. I got the easy job over here. Yeah, yeah, definitely. But I think it'll be an interesting experience to get to. It's almost like I'm going to be listening to a podcast and getting to interact with it in real time, which is so cool.

We know a little bit about the case, just kind of. Yeah, like a few sentences on Wikipedia, almost. Yeah, maybe a little more than that, but we definitely aren't experts on this case by any means. So we're hearing it for the first time as well, long with Garrett. And I think it'll all be fun for you guys to have more voices on the podcast. I think you guys are going to love it. We've never done this before. The only ever guest we've had is Peyton's mom.

So it's least super fun for us. She's awesome. She's amazing. Yeah, her new show, Rising Crime is out. I know we got a bunch of love on it. So shout out to you guys and go check it out if you haven't. But it's definitely fun. I got to be a Garrett yesterday listening to Kendall and Josh. And as a true crime host, you will see today,

it is super fun to be a listener and kind of come up with your own ideas that aren't as scripted to be Garrett. Really Garrett, just a lucky one out of all of us. Everyone just wants to be Garrett. I'm gonna be Garrett. That's sweet. All right. Well, before we get into it, Kendall and Josh, we actually do this thing on our podcast where Garrett gets his little 10 seconds because I always do research and prepare. So Garrett gets his little corner. So here we go. We're jumping into Garrett's 10 seconds. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Seriously. We got 10 seconds. I was going to

say usually a little longer than 10 seconds. It did start as 10 seconds. And. Yeah, seriously. We got 10 seconds. I was going to say, usually a little longer than 10 seconds. It did start as 10 seconds and now it's a couple minutes. I feel like every single time. I'm here for it. But I have it planned. I have it ready. It happened yesterday, actually. After we left.

After we left, we went and got Dutch brothers. Dutch bros. It's not Dutch brothers. It's not Dutch brothers. I'm going to start. You guys better sponsor us now after that brother So we went and got Dutch bros we had our Uber take us through

Everything was going fine got the drinks we were driving everything was good You know we were sipping our Dutch bros Peyton was happy because she really wanted it I decided to put it in between my lap for a second and got on my phone. And the Uber driver decided to drive like he was driving in an F1 race. And he took off and it just went boom. It spilled all over me, all over the seat. And I was freaking out.

I didn't know what to do. Pateen just looking at me. The Uber driver didn't notice. Didn't notice. It was all over the sea. I'm just rubbing my butt in, trying to soak up all the coffee. It was, oh my god. It was horrible.

We just sat there staring at each other for a solid 10 seconds. Deer in the head, like, what do we do from here? Where does this go? And I do want to say the seat wasn't sticky. You know, I think don't worry. We didn't leave it in the ass. Was it leather seats or coffee? It was leather seats.

I am. Easy to find. But poor Garrett then had to walk in the hotel. His hands looked like he'd peed everywhere. No. Yeah. So he didn't get to enjoy your breakfast. And I didn't get to enjoy my Dutch bro.

So what a bummer. She's happy. She is happy. She could not. I was just sipping my coffee laughing so hard. She was. She had both in her hand just looking at me, just cracking up. It was, that did not, just that.

It was great. So that's my 10 seconds. I thought it was a pretty good one. Was it iced or hot? It was iced at least, which I guess is better than hot. That's the one good takeaway. Yeah, burn yourself. If it was hot, burn your crotch, man.

Yeah, that was, yeah, that was, it was everywhere. You could have had a Dutch Bros. loss. Yeah, exactly, I know. I'm in your crotch. Yeah. That was, yes, that was, it was everywhere. You could have had a Dutch bros loss. Yeah. Exactly. I know. I know. I know. You really have to sponsor us.

Yeah. That's right. That's so funny. That's my 10 seconds this week. And that note, love that. Let's pop into today's episode. All right. Well, our case sources today are the Sydney Morning Harold, the weekend Australian coroners.nsw.gov,

the special broadcasting service, the Daily Mail, ABC News, 60 minutes Australia, Yahoo News, the Daily Telegraph, this old house, Google Maps, and the New Zealand Herald. Okay, so like we said, Garrett and I joined Josh and Kendall on their podcast, Mile Hire, to discuss a completely different case than what we are talking about today. And that case involved Nancy Fister and the question of whether she was killed by one, two or three people altogether. But Nancy was a bit of a socialite who was the life of the party and really loved to party. And interestingly enough, today, we are discussing the disappearance of Matthew Levison who himself was an outgoing life of the party type

who happened to disappear during a night of partying. Interesting. So let's get into it. Our episode this week begins with the birth of a little boy, Matthew John Levison, who was born on December 12, 1986, to Fay and Mark Levison over in Australia. Matthew, who sometimes goes by Matt, was born into a very tight-knit family and he has two brothers, Peter and Jason. Speaking of Australia, we were just talking about that yesterday.

That we needed to go there, because Kendall and Josh have been there. Yeah. They said it was amazing. Yeah, we wanted to, our favorite spot was Sydney, I'd say. Is this a taking place and said yeah? Yeah, yeah.

Sydney is so cool. We only got three days there and we wish we stayed longer. It's so awesome. We need to go. We do. Just the people, the Australians are so cool. Aussies are just the coolest, yeah. Like very laid back and friendly.

Yeah. And then we did another trip to London and kind of a, sorry, UUK folks. A little bit different. No, just, I think there's just more. Different vibes. I felt more judgment walking around. I'm like, ooh, Americans.

Yeah, versus Australians. They're like Americans. Yeah. Like, what's up, mate? Yeah. That's so funny. And they all, ew, Americans. Yeah. Versus Australians are like Americans. Yeah. Like, what's up, mate? Yeah. That's so funny. And they all say bloke there for that. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. I was saying bloke for like three months. Oh, that's so great. So there are three boys total in the levison family. And Matt grows up and into a teen. And he becomes interested in travel and music. He is also known for being social and close with many friends and with his family. He's just he's kind, he's outgoing, he's just a

light in everyone's life. By the time he becomes an adult and begins exploring his individual life, one source says that Matt is working as a wildlife welfare officer and other sources say he's working at an insurance company But either way something critical to our case today is that Matthew is openly gay and is accepted and loved by his family And the older he gets the more his character deepens. He's got a fun personality. He's a joking, prankster type of person, just very full of life. And on top of all of this, Matthew is very photogenic. He has bleached blonde hair. He's got big blue eyes, a very big smile.

He's fit with an athletic build. And as I mentioned at the start of our case, we are in Australia following Matt's life. And Sydney is the most populous city in Australia with a current population of over 5 million, but in 2007, when our case takes place, the population of Sydney is approximately 4 million people. I feel like everyone in Australia is like built beach blonde hair, serves tan, you know, I don't know. What's that?

The opposite of American. Show H2O mermaids. Yes. That's in Australia. Everyone looks like Matt. It's like a old cheesy, or a kid's TV show. Yeah, yeah.

About these three girls who become mermaids. Holly might like it. Yeah, yeah. In a daughter. So we are also in darlinghurst, about these three girls who become roommates. Holly might like it. Yeah. Yeah. And my daughter. So we are also in Darlinghurst, which is an area in the inner city of Sydney. And that's where we'll be located today. And Darlinghurst is known for being the hub of the LGBTQ community in Sydney.

And it boasts many restaurants, nightclubs, and bars. So as a lively and outgoing 20-year-old, Matt Levison regularly goes to these bars, and he often spends time at the ARQ nightclub. In 2007, the ARQ Dance Club is a very popular nightclub in Taylor Square, which is in the Darlinghurst area. And by September 2007, Matthew meets somebody while out and he thinks he might want to actually entertain a real relationship with him. His name is Michael Atkins and the two of them just hit it off.

Now Michael Atkins is much older than Matthew, more than double his age at 44 years old. Whoa, so 24-year difference? Yes. That 44 years old. Whoa. So 24-year difference? Yes. That's pretty big. Right. And they met at the club, right?

Yes, they met just like out in the scene. They kind of ran around in the same circles. Gotcha. But to them, the age difference doesn't really matter. They begin dating and they eventually actually move in together rather quickly. Michael has an apartment in Crenola where Matthew is now living with him. And Crenola is a beachfront area of Sydney, Australia.

Do you know, like how far into the relationship, they started living together? Just a couple months. Okay. Just a couple months in. So Michael and Matthew by September have now been dating for a couple months and they together are living this party lifestyle.

They like going to clubs. They are really living up Matthews 20s because Michael is no longer in his 20s. And they are known to often take ecstasy and the party drug GHB. And there are actually numerous published reports that they might also sell small quantities of these drugs while out. So they're kind of like the little interesting, the little dealers. They were taking GHB for fun. Yeah. What's a GHB? It's also known as the date rate drug. Oh, okay. You don't know that. Interesting. I've never, yeah,

I mean, I'm not that much of a partier myself. Right. You know, I don't really know if that's common, but I've never heard of that personally taking that For fun. Yeah, it's usually like what I assume people put in water so they could then rape you Yeah, yeah, yeah, it's a look where it's not even just I mean, it's really common nowadays I know someone who even it's a danger to males even if you know They're not actually gonna take advantage of you sexually. Like they'll rob you or steal your car. And then it's really scary. You gotta be so careful at bars these days

and make sure your drink is always covered or you always have an eye on it. It's crazy. They'll go and do like a line of people's drinks and then kind of scan and see who really is affected and then target them. Like, you gotta be really careful. That's nuts, okay.

Yeah. You saw that shark tank that girl made a scrunchie who the bars that goes over your dreams. Yes. I saw that. Genius. So genius. It's happened to at least a couple. Yeah.

Several friends that I know. My mom's been. Oh, my hand. It's scary. Really calming. Wow. So yeah, I don't know. According to sources, they are taking and selling GHB at these

Interesting clubs now as it seems to go in these stories the relationship between Matthew and Michael atkins starts out well But it slowly begins to deteriorate One woman says that Michael is very controlling of his younger boyfriend, Matthew, and the relationship had maybe even turned physical. A couple times, she says that she saw Michael once hit Matthew with a clenched fist. Another person says that he himself was having a relationship with Michael at the same time that Matthew was. And that Matthew knew about it. So Michael was dating more than one person.

And Michael would regularly suggest three sums or four sums, although dating Matthew is seemed like Michael was not quite ready for a monogamous lifestyle. And as Michael and Matthew continue dating, rumors begin to spread around their peers and friends that possibly 44-year-old Michael is just using 20-year-old Matthew as a means to get access to additional young men. Because he's 44, these young men might not normally entertain him, but because he's dating this attractive 20-year-old, they might then entertain him. So he's agreed to date him solely for the purpose that it allows him to gain access to much younger men that he can then kind of fool around with.

So hence the issues that begin to arise between the couple because Matthew's not necessarily down with all of this. So in August 2007, Matthew Levison and Michael Atkins, like I said, are a few months into their relationship. And at Michael's request, they have a 3-some with a 20-year-old man who, afterwards, shares the same concern that Michael is using Matthew as an entree for meeting other young men. The 3 take GHB together that night, but after the 3-some,, the third man feels that the encounter may have done some damage to Matthew and Michael's relationship. So he doesn't go into detail

as to why, but obviously Matthew is not down with what is happening. These three sums, Michael having other boyfriends, he doesn't like it and it's causing contention in their relationship. It seems like at the very beginning there's some misunderstanding at what the relationship was actually going to be. That's, they each had a different maybe purpose for the relationship. And as it's evolving, they're starting to kind of uncover the real reasons for why they're together in the first place. And Matthew, you know, had a completely, he was thinking,

you know, maybe there's a guy that I can really be with and maybe sees a long-term future with. Yeah. And Michael's, which makes me wonder how many other guys before Matthew did Michael have where he was doing this exact same thing because the first thing I'm thinking of like this guy's a predator. Oh, I totally pray upon these young men and he's using them as a disposal to gain access. So yeah, no, totally agree.

It's so interesting you say that and I'll come back around to it at the very end of the story, but that comes up again, that exact thoughts. How many other men have there been? Right. It's almost like they have a true crime podcast. Almost. I guess I know something. Yeah.

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By going to rocket money.com slash husband. That's rocket money.com slash husband. Rocket money.com slash husband rocket money.com slash husband. So around this time, Matthew actually complains to a coworker that Michael just wants to engage in three sums. He's not very serious about the relationship and that he thinks he's quote, God's gift to men. This is according to the weekend, Australian. So he's not even talking very nice about his older boyfriend. He is obviously frustrated with what's happening.

It seems like he's like a serious narcissist. Yeah, I kind of am getting that vibe even from the people who hang around with them. So, despite the issues arising on Saturday night, September 22, 2007, Matthew and Michael go to the ARCube nightclub. They're regulars here, like we've talked about. And it's a typical evening with Matthew dancing and enjoying time with his friends. This is including Michael where they're all drinking and doing what's known as party drugs.

That evening, Matthew is wearing light brown cargo shorts, a black, singlet, and white leather shoes. This is according to the Sydney Morning Herald. And a singlet is known in the US as a sleeveless shirt. I guess they just call it something different. I didn't know that. There's lots of those. I thought you meant like an actual isn't like a wrestler's wear. That's called a singlet, right? Yes. Okay. So yeah. Yeah. In the US. That's what I thought you were talking about. No. So I guess in Australia, this is just like a cut-off tank is what I'm assuming. So Matthews Black shirt also has the word Morgan,

written across the front in very large letters. So the man who had the threesome with them the previous month is also at the club this night and he sees Matthew and he says that he's looking happy. Like Matthew looks like he's having a good time. However, this will change as the night progresses. Many people report that Matthew and Michael begin to have a heated argument at the club this evening.

This account comes primarily from Matthew's own brother, Peter, who also happens to be partying at the club that night. And according to him, as Peter walks up to approach his brother and say, hi, Matthew brushes him off and keeps walking by him when they encounter each other. And this is clearly unusual behavior for Matthew. It's usually so friendly and upbeat.

He's the life of the party. So why would he just like bypass his brother? Okay, wait, so just to clarify, so they're at the club. Yes. Matthews with Michael. Yeah. And then Matthews brother Peter Okay, wait, so just to clarify. So that the club. Yes. Matthews with Michael. Yeah. And then Matthews brother Peter walks by him tries to say hi and Matthew just blows it off. Yes, he seems like he's in a bad mood, basically. So curious as to what's going on with Matthew, why he was too upset to even talk to him. Peter begins asking around and he finds out from someone else that Matthew is fighting

with Michael. And that's the reason he's visibly upset. So Peter says he thought that his brother's boyfriend, Michael, was a nice guy, but this night his opinion begins to change because while his brother Matthew and boyfriend Michael are arguing, Michael starts inappropriately coming on to Peter as well. So he literally begins trying to hit up his boyfriend's own brother while fighting. Wow. Oh my God, with his boyfriend.

Yeah. Like you said earlier, he really seems like a narcissist. Yes. So Peter will later say that Michael Atkins gets creepy close to him in the bar and he's not the only one. Michael Atkins was kind of known to be very handsy, would make people uncomfortable, would advance on people all the time

who definitely didn't want it. And it was one of those things where everyone just kind of acknowledged him as this guy, and but brush it off, oh, that's just Michael, that's just kind of who he is. And I think it even plays more into the story that Michael is 44 partying with 20 year olds and being the guy

who's just a little too creepy, a little too touchy at the same time. And usually it's, it's the opposite kind of what Josh was saying earlier that the 44 year old should be looking to settle and the 20 year old should be looking to settle and the 20 year old should be looking to party. Right. It's like the opposite. And their situation. Well, that's like, I'm saying, you know, I'm starting to think he's a predator, right?

Yeah. There's a reason that he's doing this. Yeah. And it's not just to find like a loving husband to go live with. Which is, you know, not to say that anyone that's dating someone younger is a predator. Right. No, age is just a number. Yeah, don't get me wrong.

Sure. But age is just a number. But him. Yes. God's gift to man. Yes. Yeah. I feel like whenever you bring up, you compare yourself to God.

Yeah. God, it'd be this usually. It's usually narcissists or predators. I feel like that happens a lot. Oh, totally. Well, he clearly, Michael clearly feels like he has power. Yes. In the situation, in this club, he's a regular,

he's a drug dealer. So he has something that people want. But he's also clearly been around for a long time. And so he's kind of created this reputation for himself that he's kind of powerful in a sense in this setting. And people have seen him physically get violent with Michael. Wow. With Matthew.

Yeah. So maybe scared of him even. Yeah. So it's safe to say that this night out between Matthew and Michael is quickly turning into a Ronnie cheating on Sammy Jersey Shore type of party night. We're flipping beds. We're dragging him out. Like, I of party night. We're flipping beds. We're dragging them out. Like, I mean, obviously they're not flipping beds, but it's just like they're all at this

party and they're in a fight at the club. And if you've watched Jersey Shore, you know how that goes, you know about the letter. Yeah. The letter. Classic. So Matthew and Michael Atkins have been arguing. And it's now in the wee hours of Sunday morning September 23rd 2007. No, no, no.

And at least one witness notices that Matthew at this point is visibly under the effects of drugs as the morning hours roll around. And at approximately 2 a.m. Matthew decides to leave the ARQ dance club for the night morning. And this is captured on video. He's seen leaving, walking out with, and just ahead of his boyfriend Michael. And it appears like they are leaving for the night together. I mean, they do live together and they both walk out. They are standing a little bit apart though, but something peculiar happens. Just 55 minutes later, after leaving, at approximately 3 a.m., Michael returns to the ARQ club, only now he's by himself.

Oh, okay. So he left with Matthew, but now he's coming back on his own. No, wait a minute, gosh, that's late to come back. Right, 3 a.m. But before you get ahead of yourself. And but who, I mean, who, I don't know, who leaves a club and then comes back out?

I think a lot of people, right? Ronnie. Yeah. Guess that's true. Okay, I guess, yeah, I see. I feel like it's a little strange, right? Well, I think it's just, and it's not 3am, it's not like it's 10 o'clock and they're leaving coming back

at like midnight or something. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's a weird time to show up. Like it's bedtime at 4am, 3am. It's not like it's 10 o'clock and they're leaving coming back at like midnight or something. Yeah Like it's bedtime at 4am. Yeah, but if we are tracking texts being sent from Matthew's phone He is supposedly still okay But when asked later where he and Matthew were during this time Michael says he doesn't remember So Michael can't account for the 55 minutes he and Matthew were gone. But we know that Matthew is still alive because he was sending texts during this time.

Yes. Are we sure that he was the one composing said texts? No. Okay. But his phone is sending texts during this 55 minutes. And Michael just says, I can't remember what happened? Yeah. According to him, He has no recollection So it could be possible. So they were yeah, I mean, that's one of the side effects of GHB. Yes

I was also gonna say sorry to jump in. I was also gonna say that this club, you know, we're saying 3 a.m He's coming back to the club kind of weird This is actually still like early in the night for or early in the morning for the club because the club closes at 7 a.m Okay, yes, and This club is still open today. So people party till 7 a.m. It starts at 9 p.m. all the way to 7. So they're like serving the most. So like 3 a.m. I mean, it's still prime time.

Yeah, it's like breakfast, burrito, starting at 6 a.m. That is my most. Yeah, definitely not me. Yeah, that is my most came out. Yeah. Definitely not me. Yeah. Well, and also too, you gotta think, when you're using drugs too, when you're using party drugs things like that,

and time is completely distorted, and I'm saying that I have experience with that, but yeah, I'm just saying like, from what I know about party drugs, that you're a sense of time, and just your overall well-being is kind of off, right? Your consciousness is altered. And so it does allow you to see up later too.

Yeah, I mean, it's easy to go from nine to seven, no problem. Yeah, makes sense. If you've got some help, so that makes sense. So at some point after this, now physically separated, we know this because of security footage. Michael sends Matt's phone a text, quote, I already apologized three times and also that he needed to get more drugs for a friend,

which maybe he's explaining why he's going back to the club. And meanwhile, Matthew, as we said, is no longer at the club and his phone is texting a friend about the argument that he's been having with Michael this whole entire night. At 3.20 a.m., a text says, Mike's having an f in cry. He is taking me home and he won't let me stay. F in seward. At 3.41 a.m., another text to a friend. He needs to f in get over himself. So things are just messy. They're toxic.

They're not going good right now. If this is really Matthew sending Michael these texts, which is already suspicious at least in my head. But it's confusing to me because Matthew is at home at this point. Yes, Michael's at the club. So it's not like Michael could have been sending these texts from Matthew's phone unless he had it. And if he stole it, I guess. Yes. Unless he brought it with it. Were they able to trace cellphone data and see where they're?

Not that I saw on any of the case sources. Okay. I'm going to say because I know the outcome of this case, I do, I believe Matthew is the one sending these texts. Okay. I don't think that 55 minutes. I don't know what happened during those 55 minutes. I think he's still alive. At this point, he's the one that said, called Michael Fing. See you next Tuesday. Yes.

Yes. See you next Tuesday. So after this, Michael leaves the club once again. And according to him, he goes home. Michael says that he and Matthew are both home for the rest of the night, but that they sleep in separate rooms because of the arguments. And after waking up that Sunday, Michael buys two tickets to an upcoming event called the Sleeze Ball, which is a gigantic dance party that's coming up. And just two days later, on Tuesday, September 25th, Matthew Levison doesn't show up for work. Okay, so this is where we're getting started. Yes. When Matthew's family learns that he doesn't show up for work on Tuesday, they keep trying

his phone, but Matthew's not answering. And other than his brother Peter, who saw him at the club that Saturday, his family last saw Matthew at a birthday party about two weeks earlier. So Peyton and I always talk about this and I'm curious to hear your guys' thoughts. Like how long would it take for you guys to be gone? For people to start to say, I think something's happened. Like how long for your mom or your dad would it take to not hear from you or Janelle? I mean, I guess Janelle or people that you work with, you know, you can say that.

I guess like Janelle or like people you work with, probably pretty fast, but what about like your mom or your dad? Janelle would be the first one to freak. To know. And that actually happened recently. I don't know what happened. How many hours? Like a day, 12 hours.

It was like four hours before it started freaking out. Okay. We have a pact with everyone. Yeah, good. Like if you don't hear for us for an hour, please call 911. Yeah. Good.

That's fine though. Something is happening. You can't get hold of all of us. If I couldn't get a hold of you, I'd freak out in hour. Yeah. Okay. Really?

Yeah. I can't go anywhere in hour. If I knew where you were or why you weren't answering, yes, but if I'm expecting you, it's a random view. It would not happen. Yeah. You have about an hour, Josh. I feel like our parents wouldn't know for a long time.

My parents would know for a month. It's probably a two-sply month. I say about a week for my mom and maybe three days for my dad. Okay, that's kind of what I feel is. What's your answer for them? Probably three days to a week for my parents. Yeah, your parents love you. Yeah, my parents love me just the idea they love me. No, my parents would freak out if I didn't answer for a day. you. Yeah, my parents love me. Just the idea they love me.

No, my parents would freak out if I didn't answer for a day. Really? Yeah, we talked that much. But for me and Garrett, this actually happened recently. My phone wasn't working. Garrett broke his foot and was trying to get hold of me to have to take him to the hospital. And my phone wasn't working. And so he couldn't get ahold of me for like 35 minutes He was freaking out text because I was home alone and he was freaking out text me over and over and over again Yeah, that's true. So it was pretty fast for us. So I had a call of Brian instead to come pick me up and Surprise we're still married He texted me said I'm gonna take away your phone

I was like babe, what if I was. He texted me said I'm going to take away your phone. I was like, babe, what if I was kidnapped? Please couldn't get old. But yeah, it was pretty funny. That's great. Okay. So that's good to know because I always wonder like how long before. Yeah. Yeah. It's an interesting thought. Yes. So Matthew's family is worried. And after doing a little investigation of their own, it appears that no one other than Michael has seen Matthew since early Sunday morning at the club when he walked out with Michael. That's the last time he was seen. This show is sponsored by BetterHelp. Have you ever found yourself at a crossroads unsure of which direction to take in life?

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day, my parents wouldn't go, my daughter was a victim of a hate crime. That wouldn't be the first thing that they would think, but Matthew's family had to think that. It's so true. I was going to also say, let alone the time he left. Right. I mean, for anybody to be out at 3 a.m. potentially intoxicated, yeah, walking around, you know, because all we have is the CCTV, yeah, we don't know how we actually got home. We don't have any of that information. So maybe they walked for a few blocks in the dark and something happened.

I mean, your mind goes to all those differences and it was really out. And, but yeah, obviously because he's openly gay, you know, there's always that possibility. Yeah, I was gonna say, I don't know if it's gotten much better since 2007, I mean, I feel like things have gotten possibly worse in the last few years. I mean, it's just kind of been on the rise.

Yeah, maybe. I don't know. Yeah, no, it's true. Like, if I went missing at 3 a.m. and toxicated, my parents would think, oh, no, she was sexually assaulted. Mm-hmm. Yes. If Matthew goes missing at 3 a.m. and toxicated, they think, oh, no, he was a victim of

hate. I think he'll. Yeah. So meanwhile, on Tuesday, September 25th, or Wednesday, September 26th, depending on the source, but in either event, right when Matthew's family is reporting him missing to the police because they think he might be a victim of a hate crime, Michael, his live-in boyfriend,

is driving about two hours north to Newcastle, straight from work, to go have sex with the man he's been having the online sexual relationship with. So while his boyfriend's family are reporting him missing, he's going to have sex with another man. And this will be the first time they actually physically get together. It's so messed up. Yeah. So at this encounter, Michael offers this man a ticket to the sleaze ball, saying that he now magically has an extra ticket

to this dance if this man wants to go with him. At 10.13 a.m. that Tuesday, Michael then sends Matthews phone a text that says, baby, no matter what happened, just give me a call, please baby, we are all worried sick. I don't know if he was that worried if he was off hanging out with his other friend while the family was so worried that they were going to police. Yeah. So after reporting to police, the first real break in Matthew's disappearance comes to light two days later, Thursday, September 27th. Matthew's car, a 1999 Corolla hatchback, is found in the Wattara Park Reserve, parked near a public toilet.

It's at Wattara Oval in Sutherland. This is not far from where Matthew lives with Michael. So they now find his abandoned car. The police search Matthews Car and discover a receipt inside for two items that were bought shortly after noon on Sunday, September 23rd. So this was the day Matthew seemed to have disappeared. This would basically be the afternoon after that toxic night out where Matthew was last seen. The two items on this receipt are duct tape and a matik, which is

like a hammer. Oh my gosh. And the purchase was made with cash, so it's not clear from the receipt who made the purchase. Why are the receipts in the car? Yeah. That's weird. People don't think things don't know. Yeah, they do not. Not especially when it might be a last minute,

not really a meditated thing. You're not calculated. You're not calculated. Yeah, yeah. Which I think that's an important thing to note, especially when you get farther into this, because that's what it indicates, right? It's like this probably was kind of a spur of the moment thing, because it really planning something out.

You don't do your planning to murder somebody, you're going to do your best to cover your tracks, right? Yeah. So, as you can imagine, this receipt feels very ominous, considering Matt is missing now, and the police began investigating to figure out who bought these items. And I should clarify, the duct tape and the matric are not found in the car, just the receipt is in the car. Okay.

Police believe that Matthew didn't park his car there himself with the receipt. And because of this, they believe very early on that Matthew has met with foul play. They don't think he's just an adult who decided to run away. At this point, law enforcement publicly asks for anyone who has information about Matthew to come forward or about how his car even came to be parked in that area. And another odd thing the police discover about Matthew's car is that there are a lot of loose wires in the trunk as though something electronic had been ripped out of it.

And the police talked to Matthew's family to try and figure out what this was, and they learn that a large speaker is missing from the trunk. A speaker out of all, that's weird. Well, Matthew was known to love this speaker. It's described either as a giant subwoofer or a large boom box. I'm gonna just say it's a sound system for described either as a giant subwoofer or a large boombox.

I'm going to just say it's a sound system for a server. Yeah, it's now missing. And according to SBS dot com, the speaker had been crudely removed like it had been quickly ripped out of the trunk. Peter says that Matthew would never have ripped out this speaker out of his own trunk like this. And I want to mention for a picture here, the subwoofer was so large it had taken up basically the entire trunk of Matthew's car. So say someone needed to place something else in the trunk of Matthew's car. His beloved speaker was most definitely in the way and would need to be ripped out. Oh, that makes a lot of sense because when you first said that my mind was going to,

could this have been a robbery that went south? Yep, but they needed room in the back. I didn't even think about that. Yeah, wow. That makes. Well, police did. Yeah, that's why they're the police and I'm on a podcast. Yes, that's right.

Yep. So police, of course, at this point interview, Michael Atkins, who voluntarily agrees to talk because just like all of you, police want to know what happened to Michael after leaving the club that night. Like, what's the story here? Yeah. He hasn't been seen since. So where did he go? What happened?

Michael gives the police an account of what he claims happened the day and night of Matthew's disappearance. He says that Matthew had taken drugs when they were at the club and that Matthew was falling asleep so he drove him to their shared home. Michael says he doesn't know what took them so long or why that took 55 minutes because it shouldn't have. But then he went back to the club. Then after the club he went home and went back to sleep. He went back to the club. Then after the club, he went home and went back to sleep. He claims that he was then home all day with Matthew on Sunday, September 23rd. So when whoever bought that receipt and left it in the car, he's claiming he was home with

Matthew during that time. According to him, the only time they left during the day was at about 5pm to walk through the mall. Michael claims that he's seen and spent time nearly a whole day with missing Matthew since they left the nightclub. So that's his story. Is Matthew was around all Sunday.

He says that Matthew then left some time on Sunday night and didn't come back and he hasn't seen him since. Michael says that for all he knows, Matthew is alive and well. When confronted about going and having sex with another lover while Matthew was being reported missing, he said, quote, it just seemed like the right time to do it. Oh my God. Because he hadn't met this guy yet.

And the police were like, why would you go to this wall? Your boyfriend's being reported missing. And he said, well, we just hadn't met yet. And it just seemed like the right time. Nope. Makes a ton of the right time. Nope. Makes a ton of sense. Right. The police decide to search Michael's garage at this point

and they make a puzzling discovery. Matthew's ripped out speaker is sitting on the garage floor. So what? I mean, it seems like at this point, I'm not gonna say an open and shut case, but I mean, the speaker's literally in garage. Yeah, it seems kind at this point, I'm not gonna say an open and shut case, but I mean, the speakers literally in the garage. Yeah, it seems kind of like a spam dunk situation. Yeah, he was the last one who saw him, yeah, everything.

You would think, you would think. So the police theory is that somebody who they now suspect to be Michael, remove the speaker to make room to transport Matthew's body after he killed him. Around this time, they've finally tracked down the surveillance video from the Bunnings Hardware store in Taren Point, where the suspicious receipt

from the car came from. And because I don't have a very good history on our podcast with hardware stores versus grocery stores, I did look it up. And Bunnings is a store similar to Home Depot in the US. You guys know what, Minards is? No. Okay. See, we are not the only one.

It's because we're from the West Coast. So, Minards is a, what is it again? It's a grocery store. Oh, shoot. Oh, no. Minards is either a grocery store or a hardware store on the East Coast. And the mid coast.

And we, whatever we said was wrong. That was vice versa on our podcast, because we didn't look it up. I was just assuming okay To this day we still get messages My nots. Yeah, it's home improvement home. It's okay Home improvement so we said it was a grocery store and everyone was like are you saying? No, it's like it's like calling an ace hardware like a grocery Yeah, that's basically the way. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But that's a little weird to hang on to that.

Yeah, no, no. No, no, no. I just got tagged in a TikTok yesterday that was like a Monard's theme song. And someone tagged me and was like, just for you. Oh my God. That's so funny. That's funny.

That's funny. Please watch the video. And who do you think they find on camera purchasing the duct tape and the mat. Michael. It's actually not super clear like footage, but it definitely looks like him. But just for concrete evidence, please also check the receipt for fingerprints and they find a fingerprint on the receipt that belongs to Michael atkins as well.

Michael however, denies to the police that he made those purchases and he denies that it's him on the videotape and he doesn't know how his fingerprint got on the receipt. So that is some seriously solid evidence right there. I would agree. That feels pretty solid to me. I mean, at this point, I assume it's Michael. Oh. Like, it assume it has to be Michael.

Yeah. It's definitely looking that way. Yeah. Well, despite the evidence, police want to find Matthew before they make an arrest. But months start going by, they keep going by, and Matthew doesn't turn up. It's difficult, though, because there's no body, and there's really no physical evidence to speak of

to show murder. So if they want to get him for murder, it will be tough. The two live together, so their DNA would be all over the car, So if they want to get him for murder, it will be tough. The two lived together so their DNA would be all over the car and all over the, you know, home's possessions. There was apparently no blood evidence found in the home or Matthew's car.

And the only thing they have is an extremely suspicious receipt found in Matthew's car that was left there by Michael and extremely obvious circumstantial evidence. Neither of those are strong enough to get a first-degree murder conviction in court. So police feel a little stuck. I mean, it is really hard without a body. It makes it way more difficult. Yes. Do they do any ground searches? Like, did they look at the what tar, is it a whittara? Yeah, yeah, yeah. I don't know if they were, I'm sure they were because they were still searching for him at this point, the family and police, but they weren't finding

anything that would like help aid the investigation. I went, I wonder if they brought in canines or anything. I was kind of looking last night. It didn't seem like they did anything like that. I know the family that was reported. That was reported. Interesting. I mean, family that was reported. That was reported. Interesting. I mean, they totally could have.

And it's just not. Well, it wouldn't have been that hard to search the area where the car was found because the Wattara park was literally just like a city park. Yeah. Oh, it's just like so it's small. Yeah, there's like three fields. It was like a cycling track around it.

It's not far from all this open. The Royal National Park is not. Oh, so it kind of backs up to maybe that's the part. There's a highway, though, that runs between the two. Okay. The one thing I was thinking of is like, did law enforcement ever like look at other cameras around town? I know, one around, you know, where they live to see if the,

you know, they can see Michael and Matthew in the car together driving. Yeah, yeah. They might be different over there about how much they share with the public as far as their tactics. That's true. I was about to say that because they're definitely, it definitely feels a little under-reported okay. As far as like evidence goes in this case, I feel like a lot of the information was very

regurgitated and that they weren't necessary. And I guess once we get to the trial and everything, it might make sense as to why it was never publicly released. But yeah, I definitely feel like there's some missing holes here. I was watching an interview with Matthew's parents and they seem to be very happy with the ones the police did and felt like they did a thorough job. Even though they were involved in the searches

and they described it as being a needle in a haystack kind of situation, didn't know where to start. Can't imagine what that's like. And maybe it's one of those cases where police really did a good job of communicating with the family. And so the family does is happy even if that information hasn't been released to the public, which I wish would happen more often.

They need to know more than we do. It's so true. So by July 2008, Matthew's mother, post a heartfelt tribute and a plea on Facebook that made it very clear where the family stood on their son's disappearance. It says, my darling beautiful boy, it is 10 months today since that heartless, soulless monster took you away from your family and friends. Oh my gosh. My resolve has not weakened. I will not stop looking for you and bring that monster to justice. It is only a matter of time, even if it takes me my lifetime,

I will get justice for you. Every night I look into the sky and I see your star shining brightly. You are a bright star in our lives and will continue to be so forever. The monster may have taken you from me, but it can't take my memories and my love for you away. You will never be forgotten. You are forever in our hearts. They say time heals. It's a lie. It does not. It just gets harder and harder not having you around. Maddie, I love you now always and forever, exo exo.

That is heartbreaking. That really is. Heart wrenching. But it goes to show you the family definitely believes. They know who did it. They just need the evidence. And they believe he's deceased at this point. Yes. I think you can tell from that wording.

If they said A monster, it'd be different, but that monster tells you they know in their minds. Who did this? And I'm sure maybe it'll be information that we will never know. I wonder how his family even felt about Michael. Oh, the relationship in the first place. Correct. Well, it did say that the brother thought he was nice until that night when. Oh, okay.

So maybe they were fine with it then. Michael did start hitting on him and he was like, well, you're dating my brother. Okay. Got it. So months are ticking by at this point, but the investigation has been ongoing according to most sources. On August 6, 2008, almost a year after Matthew's disappearance, the police believe enough time has passed

without Matthew resurfacing. And so Michael Atkins is charged with Matthew Levison's murder. So I think they were waiting, they were waiting around for that year mark to see, do we ever find the body? Do we ever find anything else?

Does someone ever come forward? And when nothing happened, they said, okay, we're just gonna body? Do we ever find anything else to someone ever come forward and when nothing happened, they said, okay, we're just gonna go with what we have and hope that we have enough to get with it. Interesting, just risk it on the trial basis. Yeah, they're like, okay, we're just gonna arrest him and go for it. It's kind of like a last resort that happens

with a lot of cases. Okay, we have. So, Atkins is arrested at 7 a.m. I'm gonna start referring to him as Atkins now that he's officially arrested for the crime. He's arrested at 7 a.m. at home, at his apartment, and Atkins has now 45 years old. The police hold a press conference announcing that the investigation is ongoing and that just because they made an arrest doesn't mean they're going to stop looking for Matthew, which is I feel like they're just doing such a good job to reassure the public like just because we've made an arrest doesn't mean we think our work is over.

Like we're still looking for him. We're still going to try to bring his body home. It seems like for the most part, the Australian police are really top notch. Yeah. I'd agree. It seems like they have feelings and, yeah, it's a human being. Yeah. Not saying that at all cops don't have feelings, but it's, yeah you also have to remember, crime rates over here, much higher, but higher.

So, when someone does go missing or something, at least like violent crime rates, there's a lot higher here. So, murder is not as like a, you know, here we had like every day, there's someone, there's shooting or murder or something like that, but over there, it's a lot rare that stuff like this happens. Yeah, when we have like 50 cases a week from Florida. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, yeah. Yeah.

Definitely Florida. Yeah. So police say that although they have no body, they have formed a strong circumstantial case against Atkins for murder. As quoted in the Sydney Morning Herald, police superintendent Mark Hirons says, quote, a whole series of small pieces of information came together to lead us to the conclusion that there is no other reasonable hypothesis.

Matthew's parents joined police at the press conference and plead for the return of Matthew's body. And little over a year after Michael's arrest, the jury trial against him begins on September 3, 2009 in the new Southwell Supreme Court. It's a four week trial and Atkins reportedly shows no emotion throughout the entirety of the trial. Now I'm going to kind of skip over the details of the trial, but basically it's the case you already know.

That's kind of how it's represented. And the defense is that, hey, there is nobody, basically Matthew could still be alive. That's the... No body, no crime. Yep, no body, no crime. So the jury deliberates for five days. And again, just like Kendall said,

nobody cases aren't impossible, but they are notoriously difficult to prosecute because the defense can point to multiple alternative theories, including the theory that perhaps Matthew is still alive. I mean, that's what it's all about, creating that reasonable doubt and gives you way more opportunity to do that. And that's all you need.

I think it's so hard actually to, yeah, if there's no evidence, there's no body. There's no body. It would be hard. If I was on a jury, I, I don't know what I would do. That's just, that's no evidence. There's no body. They can't even close. They can't even close. It would be hard. If I was on a jury, I, I don't know what I would do. That's just, that's hard. Have you guys ever been, like, a jury duty? Have you guys ever been? I would love to.

I've never had the opportunity. Never have a Kennedy. I was called in once and they canceled it. They canceled it. But I would probably be, I'm so emotional. Yeah. I always take the family side. I'm just so, same.

Yeah, I would be. so empathetic that I just, I don't know if I could be unbiased enough to. I also feel like because of your career, yeah, count it out. There's no way they'd ever got this through. Sorry, Kendall, sorry, Joc, you guys. I just pretend I don't know what true crime is to be like, I don't know what's going on.

You just perjure yourself. I was actually, the last time I went to jury duty, I made it into the courtroom. Wow. And I was about to go and start getting questions and stuff and they just filled up the jury. And it was a really interesting case. It was actually, I believe it was a guy who,

it was like a DUI case where the guy fell asleep and he ended up wrecking. And I believe he injured somebody severely. Oh. But then the whole thing was like, he had a medical condition. And so there's this, it would have been a really interesting case to be a part of, but I missed it by like two people.

Yeah, they they filled the jury and they're like, all right, sorry guys, like dang it. I was like, yeah, you're close. You're like, I can't know I'm out for the next month. Yeah, I would hate it that. So we've, I've never been, me either. Have hate it that. We've, I've never been neither. Have you done jury duty? No, neither of us have ever been.

Maybe we shouldn't put that out there. I know. I mean, we have been and we just missed it. We just don't even know. Wow. Yeah. Yeah, a couple times. I know it's weird.

On October 20, 2009, after five days of deliberations, the jury finds Michael Atkins not guilty of murder and not guilty of manslaughter. Wow. After how many days? Five days. Michael Atkins walks out of court of free man. Well, it must have been quite contested if it took them five days to come to that conclusion. I agree. And also, I think that the defense just did a good job of going, you can't even prove he's murdered.

Like we don't even have a body. And so I think that Jury was just in a tough spot. It's hard because I sit here and I'm like, he has the speaker. Yeah. And you walked out with him last. Fingerprints on that receipt. Fingerprints on the receipt.

They could make the argument he's alive and he chose it as own free will to leave. Yeah, he's out there somewhere. Yeah, obviously this is very unlikely and none of us feel that way. Right. They present that to the jury and if there's any doubt at all, it's yeah. Yeah. So our case is not over though.

So we will keep going. Michael Actkin shows no emotion even at the time of the verdicts and Matthew's mother sobs At the not guilty verdicts and she begs for help in getting her son's body back That seemed to be something that was extremely important to them is at least getting his body back. Yeah They just wanted that that close I totally get that's the word you can even use yeah God that is just so unbelievably simple to go through. So after this, more time will pass in Matthew's case. And although Atkins has been found not guilty, authorities still want to get to the bottom of what happened. There's a grieving family who wants answers.

And the not guilty verdict has been extremely painful to the family and unsatisfactory to law enforcement as well. Everyone just wants the truth and they really want to find Matthew's body. So in 2015, eight years now after Matthew's disappearance, the coroner's court decides to hold a proceeding called an inquest to investigate what happened to Matthew. Now, an inquest is a court case, but it's different than a criminal proceeding. The point of an Inquest is not to determine Atkins' guilt or innocence or anyone's guilt or innocence. An Inquest has a different purpose, which is to determine the circumstances surrounding

Matthew's presumed death if he is indeed dead. It's about getting answers, not justice. The corner can compel witnesses to testify and can even compel a reluctant witness to testify who otherwise wouldn't want to, because it could incriminate themselves, kind of like taking the fifth in the US. The corner can give witnesses immunity from prosecution in order to get them to talk. Really? Yes. Wow, he's that. The corner has that much power. It's basically like a last resort. OK. On December 17, 2015, the corner serves Atkins with a subpoena to testify at the inquest.

Atkins will fight and fight and fight to try to avoid having to testify at the inquest. But in the end, he will lose this fight. He's going to be subpoenaed to talk. Nearly another year will pass while these legal battles are ongoing about whether he will have to testify or not. But finally, in October 2016, nine years since Matthew disappeared, Michael Atkins finally begins testifying at the inquest.

Michael Atkins testifies in coroner's court under oath for five long days. And at first, he claims that last he knew, Matthew was just fine. Atkins says that he believes that Matthew went off to start a new life in Thailand. And as far for the duct tape and the matric that were bought, the day that Matthew went missing,

Atkins now admits to buying those. He's like, okay, okay, you got me. That is my fingerprint and that is me on the surveillance camera. I did buy those. So Kendall was right. He claimed that he went to Thailand. He took off by himself and he's just doing his own thing. Which is so outlandish. Yeah. He just randomly up and leaves to Thailand. Is there any evidence to show that he was looking into Thailand or, you know, had his things range. Like there's just nothing to back up someone leaving their whole life behind like that. And it seemed like he was very close with his family. I mean, why would he do that? Right. And also his passport was in Michael's house. Okay. Okay. Oh, found his passport. Well, then. So if he did go, he didn't use his own passport. Yeah, it's snuck through somehow. Yeah. No, that's impossible. Yeah. And like Kendall just said, I mean, Matthew was like notoriously known for being close with his

family. It was like, they loved him. It was a very like loving family. So he would just like get up and leave without telling anybody. Yeah. I know what happens, but it just doesn't seem likely. And for the duct tape and the basically hammer acts that he bought, Michael says that he's really big on gardening and he bought those items for a garden. He was growing zucchini. He says. That there was no proof ever existed. Yeah. and he bought those items for a garden. He was growing zucchini, he says.

This is what he was saying. There was no proof ever existed. Yes, seriously. He's going to eat them, they're going to be sure. So I ate all the zucchini. Yeah, I put concrete over it. Yeah, exactly. So people actually laugh out loud while Michael Ackins

is testifying in the courtroom. Really? Because they find all of this so far fetched. A duct tape and stuff. What does that have to do with gardening? Yeah, it's like a pickax. Yeah, pickaxe basically. Okay, yeah.

What you need for like the very initial step of digging out of garden bed, but you need some more tools in that. Yeah, it's a shuttle before you get like a hammer type thing. Probably, yeah. Yeah, you don't really need a pickaxe. No. Digging a big old hole.

He's not like out there in a mine, like digging for gold in California somewhere. So, Atkins also testified that he wanted to leave the ARQ bar that night because Matthew had taken so many drugs. So, he's also just victim blaming here. He's like, oh yeah, I had nothing to do with this. He says he saw Matthew alive and well after he bought

the matric and the duct tape at the hardware store that Sunday and that Matthew was getting ready to go out. He left. He never came back. Atkins also testifies that he doesn't remember whatever happened to that matric induct tape because he was asked to produce it to police and he couldn't ever do it. And now he's saying he doesn't know what happened to it. However, after several days of being under oath on the

stand, and after five days of grilling, Michael starts to be able to not keep his story straight. The lies are starting to add up, his story starts changing, and he essentially begins to break, and his story changes in a major way. Keep in mind, the levison family's main goal here at this point is just to recover Matthew's body. They've agreed to this inquest because they know that they won't ever he won't ever serve time from the same quest. So they are just strictly trying to find the body now. Okay wait, so you can't serve any time from the quest. I guess I'm confused. He can at the inquest they can offer him immunity basically like a deal a deal They're putting in the table table. Yes, he can because he's lying. It's still perjury though We could serve time for perjury

They can get him on the new crime he committed the perjury got it but not the murder right Because he's basically been offered immunity to tell the truth that kind of sucks I mean, I guess for the family if they want closure I guess's the best thing, but they said finding his body was the most important thing to us. Just like this decision was the way if he killed someone, their murder is just out there. Yeah. Yeah. That definitely works different than it does here. Yeah. That will not happen. No. Yeah. And it also just goes to show looking at this from the victims family's point of view. And not just in this case, many, they're willing to give up justice to get their son, yeah, buried in a, in a proper place.

Well, I guess if you, if you don't think that justice is a possibility, they may never get that their best bet is to get his body. And I mean, as a parent now, I get that. Yeah. But, but how unfair to even be put in that situation. Oh, it's terrible. It's terrible. So he basically, Michael is forced at this point to admit that he's been lying under oath and that he's perjured himself. And this admission is huge, just like Josh said, because now he could be arrested and put in jail for that. So he now has a possibility to go to prison for that. On November 7th, 2016, the Attorney General grants indemnity, which is like

immunity, two Michael Atkins, but only if he provides information that leads to the recovery of Matthew's body. The Levison family is on board with the immunity deal for him as finding their son's body is really all that matters now. So on November 9th, he gives the statement and then he signs it the following day. And in this statement, Atkins entire story changes. After 10 years of denials, Michael Atkins finally admits that he knows where Matthew's body is. So this is huge. I mean, he's admitting to the family to police into the public that he's lied and he does know where his boyfriend is buried.

Essentially admitting that he killed him essentially. I wanted to bring up one other thing because I think this is important to the overall context of this case. So at the inquest, they also had a number of young men that came testified in front of the court, in front of Matthew's family, giving their own experiences and recounts of interacting with Michael. And everything that they said backs up what I was saying about him being a predator. They were saying that Michael Atkins was a creepy old man

and they didn't know what Matt saw on him. And they also said that after meeting them at the beat a local gym, this is one of the men that was testifying said that he would take men back to his flat for sex. He'd hold pool parties for porn stars. And basically he was just sexually assaulting everybody all the time. Yeah. Like at the club he'd just be grabbing people by the butt and other body parts telling them to take their shoes off. Just absolutely out of control, predatory behavior. So that's great. Which obviously now that that's all coming out at the same time that he's also confessing to this, you can imagine the picture that Matthew's parents are now have a very clear picture of this absolute monster.

Yeah. That is Michael Ackins. And this is, and this is also when they learn about, you know, the witnesses come forward saying we've seen, we, we saw Michael be physical with Matthew. So the parents are really learning that this relationship was not good for their son. That this was just not a good thing that had been happening. Michael Atkins gives a whole new story as to what happened. He says that when he woke up at 9 a.m. on that Sunday, he found Matthew on

the floor of their bedroom and that Matthew was dead. Michael Atkins claims that he assumed that Matthew had died from an overdose. Michael Atkins claims that he assumed that Matthew had died from an overdose. Michael Atkins claims that he then quickly decided to just dispose of Matthew's body. He even mind he was trained in CPR. He didn't try to provide it. He didn't call an ambulance. He just wanted to dispose of his lover's body. So this is the final story he gives. And I think it just goes without saying This is not what happened. No exactly. This is not what happened. Who does that? Yeah, he had duct tape and a hammer so if he overdosed what would be the point of having Well, and also it's just he still can't admit to it and that's so like

His ego he just cannot admit I don't know. He like yeah, he just cannot admit. I don't know, he like, yeah, he can't admit the committing murder. Nope. So Michael Ackins then draws a diagram for police of where he says he first saw Matthew's body in the apartment and then he also provides police with a hand drawn map of where he says he disposed of Matthew's body.

He says he buried Matthew's body near the waterfall railway station inside Royal National Park. So this is not the park, but the national park that Josh was talking about. Okay. So the Royal National Park is a gorgeous, absolutely enormous park area in New South Wales, about 45 minutes south of Sydney. It covers almost 40,000 acres with all types of terrain. Atkins describes the shallow grave that he dug, which he says is about two meters long and about one meter wide, which is about six by three feet.

He says the secret burial spot is near a sharp bend in the road on a hill, and he basically draws a map to it. Wait. And they didn't find that? In a shallow grave near the road. We'll get there. Like, okay. But police didn't find that on their own ahead of time.

I haven't answer for you. Okay. I haven't answer for you. Oh, it's coming up. Okay. On November 10th, 2016, Atkins and his lawyers, along with the police detectives, go to the scene at Royal National Park where Akins indicates he buried Matthew's body. I'm gonna summarize this next part but it's really devastating and really important. At first Akins leads not only

police but Matthew's family around the park looking for the body and just picture this. You're walking around with your son's killer to try to find your son's body. They're all together. All together. Oh my gosh. You couldn't hold me back. No, I would. I just can't even imagine like the devastation.

I'm saying. And the reason they're together is I'm sure they didn't start out together, but he can't find the body. He can't find where he dumped it. And so it ends up being this like whole fiasco of just everyone looking and I think it was here. No, I think it's just a mess. Oh, no.

I can't even imagine being in that position, walking around with him. I would lose my mind. Yeah. I'd physically attack him. Yeah. I'd go to jail. Because I mean, it's very, I mean, especially after the inquest, now they know that he likely murdered Matthew.

Oh, my God. These people have some serious strength. Power to them for real. I feel like that wouldn't happen here. I feel like you could not put the parents in the killer, they wouldn't say that. I've never heard of any of that in America. I mean, maybe that was a first and not surely.

I like maybe it was just some weird coincidence. So the land is like bushland and dense scrubby brush. So police literally need chain saws and large excavator trucks for this search. Matthew's parents are present like I said every step of the way. In November 2016, the area all around the site, Atkins indicated is excavated and searched and searched and searched.

And authorities find a white leather shoe, but they don't find Matthew's body. They don't say whether the shoe has anything to do with Matthew though. Atkins is taken out to the area many, many times, both during the day and at night to try and jog his memories to where he buried Matthew all those years ago. Authorities spend eight days searching the area, but there's no success. They cannot find the body. The family who has been present on the scene every day of the search describes themselves as just continually being devastated. I'm confused so that he lie. Like as a body actually there,

I'm sure you have an answer for me, but I'm just confused. Well, authorities even place Atkins under hypnosis to trying to help him figure out, to remember the exact spot. Wow. Law enforcement will search inside the vast park several times over the next six month period looking for Matthew's body.

In 2017, when law enforcement isn't successful, Matthew's parents are now out on their own searching for Matthew's body. They use pickaxes and metal detectors to aid in their desperate search. Oh my God, these poor people. I know. I know. It's devastating.

And until this body is found, Michael Atkins will go on to be charged for perjury because that was the whole whole thing. They had to find the body in order for this deal to work. You either give us the body or you go to jail. Yeah, there's no in between. There's no negotiation. It's like which one's worse? In his mind, I guess, right? I don't know. Yeah. Well, he's between. There's no negotiation. It's like which one's worse in his mind I guess right? I don't know

That's the weird thing. He's claiming. Yeah. He's claiming no no no this is this is where it was He's just this can use at least he's acting just as confused. Okay In May 2017 more excavating is done at the scene where Akin says he was It's been raining hard for days. And police are finally saying, this is it. This is, we're done with the search after this six months. And we're going to send him to jail. Like we can't find it. We don't believe him.

So it's the very last day of their six month search. The police are limiting the search to where they believe Atkins could have physically been capable of carrying the body. The levisin family even allows Matthew's car to be used, and Michael Atkins actually drives around the park for three days to try to simulate the night he actually drove it to dispose of the body. So the family gives the car back and says, why don't you drive it again? Just like you did that night when you had our son's body in the trunk after you ripped out his speaker

and try to remember where you went. That's how desperate they are to find. He has to be lying. It's the only thing I, I don't know, I just can't imagine he's telling the truth. Unless it was such a shallow grave that it's been dug up by wild life. And it was something, I guess that's true.

Wild life in Australia is crazy. But you'd still think even then there'd be some remains. Yeah. Yeah. So on the very last day of the excavation, this is May 31st, 2017. The backhoe belonging to the national park that's being used in the search gets stuck in the rain soaked muddy ground. Everyone at this point is despondent at this latest turn with bad luck, but Matthew's parents say they'll never give up. A larger private truck at this point is called in to come out to the scene to retrieve the park's stuck backhoe. So now they're calling in basically another huge excavator truck to get this one out. This private backhoe somehow uproots a palm tree while helping out.

So there's this palm tree and they're trying to get the one truck out and they end up accidentally digging up, like uprooting the palm tree while trying to get the truck out. And everyone is just watching this from afar absolutely defeated. I mean, imagine this, they're devastated, they're heartbroken and now they've uprooted

this huge tree and they've had to call and help. And this, this search is just a failure. That's how it feels. This is just one big failure. What a nightmare. This palm tree would never have been uprooted if the private backhoe wasn't called in for help that day. This commercial backhoe ends up removing the palm tree. And the forensic team begins to kind of brush off the soil, clean up the area. They're closing shop, they're ready to go. And just two or three scrapes in. They make an unbelievable discovery. A rotted, black, singlet had been dug up and it revealed the letters R, G, and A on its disheveled and foreign surface from Morgan The sleeveless shirt the same one Michael was wearing that the night he was murdered is

Discovered very shallow Underneath where that palm tree was the friends a team then comes across skeletal remains including part of a school And so at about 2.30 p.m. on Wednesday, May 31st, the last day of the search, law enforcement finds what they believe to be Matthew's body in the Royal National Park. What they believe to be Matthew's body is found within 30 meters of where Michael Atkins said he buried it. So it was close. It was basically correct. They never found it because that palm tree had sprouted over the grave. So that palm tree somehow had just grown over the grave. So they were digging all around it, but there wouldn't be, I mean, there wouldn't be a body underneath a tree. He didn't bury a body under a tree, which is why they never found it. So do they think he planted it? No.

never found it. So do they think he planted it? No. They believe that a seed from a nearby palm tree that's the exact same type germinated right above Matthew's body and begun to sprout. Once they like researched a little bit more this palm tree, this new life was only five years old. So it had basically just happened happened by chance that this palm tree ended up being grown here. Matthew's parents have been there for every single day of this search and they are there as the forensic investigators retrieve and exume their son's skeletal remains piece by piece. As quoted by Yahoo news, Fay Levison says that, quote, no parent should have to see their

child's remains placed in a brown paper bag. We had to watch them pack, matty up and place them in white cardboard boxes that were then walked past us and placed in the boot of a car. What are the chances that a palm tree literally grows over the body? Right. That's insane. That's insane. Wow. On May 9th, 2018, once the coroner's investigation is done, Matthew's family holds his funeral in the South in West Chappell's in Australia. This is 11 years after his disappearance. And I do need to say that when they did the autopsy, they can never find his cause of death. It had just been too long. So they can't determine whether he did overdose or was murdered. So either way though, to do this to your loved ones, so to speak, is absolutely cruel.

Though other thing that I just found was that they found his ribanes face up. It was actually face up in that shallow grave. Yeah. And one of the things that his dad said was that how can somebody who supposedly has feelings for my son do something like like that literally as he laid out shallow grave, kicked the dirt on his face. Yeah. What? Like leave him there. What an evil, what an evil an evil person right Hundreds of mourners of 10 his funeral and the family asks the mourners to wear purple in honor of Matthew's favorite color So there's just a sea of purple in the service Matthew's family says their focus now on honoring Matthew and they're trying not to focus on atkins They love us and tells the press that her biggest fear all along was that she would die before

Matthew's body would be found. Now after this, Atkins is still a free man. He's still a free man. He did his part of the deal. He led them to the body. So he moves away out of Sydney and north to Brisbane in the state of Queensland in Australia after he's acquitted. And just like Josh said, there becomes a flurry of people.

He becomes shunned by the gay community. He's banned from nightclubs. He frequently has to move his place of residence because he starts trying to pick up younger men again. He starts trying to go out to these clubs. He starts trying to do it all over again, but people know of him now. And so word spreads everywhere. He moves. It's posted all over again, but people know of him now. And so word spreads everywhere. He moves. It's posted on Facebook. It's posted online. And he just can't seem to settle down. I always wonder if he did this once. Has he done it before? Yeah. Right? Like well, all these people came forward saying he's sexually assaulted me. Yeah. But I mean like killing somebody killing. Yeah. You never know. Yeah, well, when you're dealing with all these

pretty serious drugs, yeah, I mean, there's always a possibility that potentially somebody he's pulling around with overdoses and, yeah, or overdoses or overdoses. Yeah, I mean, for all we know, he could be doing this on purpose, right? Yeah, there's too much on purpose, or a laced with something, or yeah,

and stuff, you know, he's then taking advantage of them after they're unconscious. That's what I kept thinking, especially at the beginning is like, how much of this is consensual? Yeah, especially the drug taking and everything. Right. And did he introduce the GHB? Right. Was this Michael Ackins all along? Be like, Oh, let's party with this drug. It was easier to take advantage on someone. OnceFB. That's for sure. The nerve of this guy, yeah, after going through all of this, walking a family to the body of their son that you hailed,

and then to get back out there and try to pran more younger people. Yeah. It's almost impossible to put your mind into someone who can think and act that way. 100%. There's like full blown forms of people warning other men about her. They're fine that he is still out there.

Yeah. Of course, there's, there's got to be so many people out there that don't know about him. Exactly. Oh, I do. That is very scary. Yeah, it's, it's very scary. Wow. That he can get off and then live a normal life and go pray on other people.

Doesn't creep you out when you cover cases like this and you think he could be listening. Yeah. I literally, I think I do cry to come to my house. I'm not. Yeah, it's weird. Don't even get close to my house. No, I mean, he's evil. Yeah, yeah.

Yeah, same with us. Yeah, it's scary. We're protected over here. Yeah, simply safe. Code has been right. Code has been right. Same with us. Yeah, it's scary. We're protected over here. Yeah, simply safe. But here is the best part about this episode. Matthews parents save the palm tree that was dug up during the last day of that search. They wrap it up, they transport it, and they lovingly plant it in their own garden. Oh my God, I love that. Yeah, that is so, wow, that is powerful.

Of course, I mean, it's like part of him grew into that tree essentially. It was new life over him. Oh my God, that's, I'm gonna cry, that's amazing. So the tree that had sprouted new life this tree they now named Matt's palm and Matthew's dad Mark levis and tweets quote crime scene complete coming home with Matt's palm and raising a glass to all those involved in bringing Matt home exo and along with the tweet is a photo of Mark in face standing in front of their son's palm tree and there's another photo of them raising a glass.

And they want you all to know that Matthew's memory lives on. And that is the case of Matthew Levison. That is powerful. Oh, yeah. It's just so unfortunate that they weren't able to get true justice for the sun and for what happened to them and get to the bottom of what really happened. I don't think I could ever cope with that anger. Yeah, I don't know how, I don't know how people do. Because whether or not he was actually murdered, which I tend to lean towards murdered and maybe not in necessarily in an extremely violent way, but there's also, you know, whenever

you're giving people drugs, you know, is the drug dealer liable for giving somebody a drug that they end up dying from? And so those are the questions that I'd like to know is, you know, what was he taking? And Michael, of course, just puts all of the responsibility on Matthew and says, oh, it's his fault. You know, he took the drugs and he ended up dying as a result of overdose. But it's just, yeah, I don't believe that. I know. I don't believe it at all. I don't think I believe it either. What's the gamer? What's with the duct tape? I think he for sure killed them.

Why was you not just, you're not going to be in trouble if you wake up and you find, you know, your no way for an accidentally overdosed and you call the paramedics and they're able to determine. It happens. Yeah, it does. It happens all the time. Yeah. So the fact that he, you know, in his excuse,

I believe, was like, I just freaked out. Yeah. I just freaked out because he was dead and I didn't know what to do. But it's like, all of his excuses that I heard sound like a bunch of bullshit. Yeah. Like it just sounds like he's just trying to protect himself at the end of the day

because he's narcissistic, he only cares about himself. He never really cared about Maddie. He was just purely using him for his own pleasure and using him as a tool to get other men. Yep. Yeah. And he doesn't care about his life at all. He's disposable to him. Right. No. He never once took blame.

Never once. And if his story is true and he buried his boyfriend because he overdosed. So then when his parents have to learn on their own, that their son is missing and they go to the police report that it might be a hate crime, he decides that that's the time in his own words. That's the time to go sleep with someone else. Yeah. After you face up, buried your boyfriend. So there's a lot about him. Yeah.

That's... Like, if you were to create a... That's like sociopathic. Criminal profile. You know, the FBI created a profile in this guy. I guarantee you, he's capable of murder. Oh, 100%. 100%.

A violent individual, you know, who knows what his past looks like and, you know, what other things, what his rap sheet looks like. I mean, we don't know. But he seems very capable to me, at least, of committing murder. I mean, he's able to go through with bearing a dead body in the middle of the forest. That says a lot about somebody who's able to do that. Yeah. Let alone lay them down in the ground,

kick dirt over them and leave, and essentially forget about it, and just move on with your life. It says a lot. Rific. It's crazy. Yeah, I agree. I, there's no way in my mind I can believe that he just

overdosed on drugs. No. And I don't know, maybe I guess there's always that possibility, but I just, I can't, I can't believe that. Even if he did, he, he, even if that far fetched stories, true, he deserved a proper burial in his parents and deserved to go through what they went through and all the wasted resources. And well, why wouldn't he have just called the place until he had a funeral?

Yeah, exactly. Even if he were freaking out, call, we hear it all the time on 911 calls, call him, freak out on the 911 call. No, he obviously didn't care. I mean, he went and slept with someone else afterwards like this guy. Yeah. This guy didn't care. Like even if he's trying to argue that the hammer was bought for gardening.

Yeah. Where's the key? That makes no sense. The pickaxe. The duck tape. What was that used for? The good point. I didn't think about that.

So weird. I think, yeah, I think you like I think something went wrong after they left the club that night. And he did something to him. Yeah. Well, it depends on who was sending those text messages in that first hour. Yeah, because I forgot about those text messages. I think they went home. The fight worsened. Yeah. He storms out like the next morning. No, no, that night. Matthew's still mad. He's texting Michael storms out. He goes back to the club. He's probably like, F you, I'm leaving. I'm going back out to party. Because in those texts, Matthew's saying, I want to go, but he won't let me. So you think that's what he's saying in those texts.

So you think it really is him sending those text messages? Yes. And then I think my comes home from the club after giving him another finger by going out and telling him he can't go. Comes home and the fight continues and he kills him. That's what I think happens. I hear the patent. I think I'm in the next morning at 12. He goes to my nards. He goes and he buys the stuff he needs to help with the burial. He rips out the speaker. He puts the body in and he goes and does it.

I don't even think the drugs are a factor here. You might think about it. These guys were doing drugs all the time. So they're very experienced drug takers and partiers. And so they knew how to handle that stuff. I think that's just a convenient excuse for Michael to use in order to pass the blame on to something else. And maybe that's part of his whole plan.

I mean, maybe that's the way that he operates is that he uses that, you know, because he knows that, oh yeah, there's always a possibility that you could overdose. So that's the real killer, but in his words, and the reality is is that he's the killer. Oh, 100% he's the one that's actually doing it. And he's taking advantage of these boys. And the fact there was nine boys that came forward at this end quest to say what a creepy. That's a lot. I mean, he's I can't believe he's not

a sexual offender. I know he should be, you know, at the good point, he's he's clearly going around yeah, praying upon young men that are 20 plus years younger than him, not because he's trying to find love and, you know, do it the right way. He's doing it to try to, yeah. He's got some sort of sick and satiable thirst and ego for, for a certain type of individual that he's just purely using for his own enjoyment

and at the price of these poor young men. And he's still out there. Yep, and he's still crazy. He's still out. I know. So that's so disturbing. Beware. That's why they all shunned him. Yeah. Oh, yeah. Yeah, God, it's this is a super important case to bring awareness. I honestly for people out in Australia. Yeah. And the LGBT. Yeah. for people out in Australia. Yeah. And they'll talk about this. Yeah. Yeah. Watch out for Michael Ackins.

Yeah, I just maybe changed his name now. I mean, I know. It's not that he tries to live under the radar now, but there's pictures. I mean, there will be pictures on our Instagram pictures on the YouTube videos. You know what he looks like and where because somebody like this isn't stopping.

Yeah. No, he wasn't stopped. No, he was never stopped. He was never faced Anything any consequences for his behavior. So what a tragedy. Chances are he'll continue Yeah, Matthew seemed like such a nice person. You know when you just can look at someone and he looked so full of life and happy Yes, and everyone was like no, he was life at the party. He was kind. He just he wanted to have a good time He loved his family like devastating. Yeah, I feel so bad for his parents. I mean, that's that's just so hard to lose your Your little boy like that. Yes, and then I had justice. Yeah, never ever ever get over the anger

No, it would eat me alive. It's different for you now. You just had a baby. Yeah, I, man. Yeah, don't even get me started on that. I mean, yeah, this guy would be a dead man. I know. Yeah, Josh would go find him or something. Yeah, and I mean, here's the thing too, is like Australia operates much differently

than the United States, especially. Like they use very unconventional in comparisons to United States to do this. Like the fact that they literally had the victim's parents working with him to find their loved one and they gave him the car. Not they also did too. They were trying to figure out,

like if he's driving into the Royal National Park, where, how far do we need to go off the road in order to find the body? Cause obviously you're dealing with 40,000 plus A.S. Because they were doing like scientific, they gave them a mannequin. Yes. A 70 kilogram mannequin to drag,

to see how far he could drag it off the road. And they're watching. Oh my God. So they're literally watching him replay what he did that night. Yeah, holy crap. That is mind blowing. Yeah, I don't think I've ever heard of any case. That's like that's done that. No. But I think I think about it in some cases

here in the United States, like would help victims families take a deal like that where they get their, you know, they find their loved one or their loved ones remains, but the killer is able to just walk free. Would they take that? I think so. You hear all the time in these cases. I mean, it's the same freaking case over and over again of these families going, we don't even care anonymously. We won't charge you.

Just tell us where they are. Tell us what happened. Mm-hmm. Yeah, I've heard, I've heard that many times. I'm so glad that they have the palm tree. Like, I mean, not that it's really special. It's always something when they can take tragedy and turn it into something hopeful.

And have a place almost to like visit with him in a way. It was a new life. That's really cool. Yes, that feels, oh, when I learned about that, I just cried. It's like something greater. Yeah, made that happen. Yeah, you know, for sure. It's for something greater. Yeah. You made that happen.

Yeah. Oh, for sure. For a reason. And even though it was the reason they couldn't find them, it's also like new life. Yeah. But in a sense, it almost was the reason. I mean, they kept going, so.

Yeah. That was an interesting case. Yeah. Maybe today we can all just take a moment and do whatever you do to honor or think about Matthew and his family. But we again were so happy to have you guys on the show. It was a lot of I hate saying there was a lot of fun.

I know right now. It's hard. No, we're doing podcasting about something so serious, but. But it was entertaining and different for us to have someone else who gets what we do. Who gets true crime and doesn't get it at all. Exactly. It seems to be getting it more hard. It seems to be getting it more hard.

No, yeah, and I did. It's just cool to be around other people who look at these cases the same way we do and want to sit here and talk about Matthew and want to honor him and talk about the case and talk about the justice. And like, I think that that we're doing all of us listening right now are doing more than we think we are. I would definitely say so. Yeah. All right.

Well, that was our episode for today. We hope you guys love it. Thank you, Kendall and Josh for being here. And you will definitely be seeing them again. Let us know in the comments what you thought about this case and if you want to see more collapse between mile higher and murder with my husband and we will see you next time. I love it.

I hate it. Goodbye. you