Murder With My Husband - 18. Kris Kremers and Lisanne Froon - The Missing Hikers

Episode Date: July 13, 2020

On this episode of Murder With My Husband, Payton tells Garrett the story of Kris Kremers and Lisanne Froon. Two Dutch students who travel to Panama for vacation and run into trouble. Editor's Note: After recording, I realized that the source I followed on how to pronounce the girls' names had actually said it wrong. Lisanne is said just as it's spelt. Sorry! LIVE ONLINE SHOW TICKETS HERE! https://www.moment.co/murderwithmyhusband Case Sources: Nexpo youtube channel https://allthatsinteresting.com/kris-kremers-lisanne-froon reddit https://koudekaas.blogspot.com/2019/12/the-disappearance-of-kris-kremers-and.html quora https://www.strangeoutdoors.com/mysterious-stories-blog/2017/10/25/kris-kremers-lisanne-froon-strange-disappearances-and-deaths-in-forests https://admin.bigglobaltravel.com/adventure/panama-hikers-diappear-tw/ Follow our social medias: https://linktr.ee/murderwithmyhusband  Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hey everybody, welcome back to our podcast. This is murder with my husband. I'm Peyton Marland and I'm Garrett Marland and he's the husband and I'm the husband. Dang sometimes jumping into these things is so awkward don't you think a little bit? Yeah I never know how to I guess start it because sometimes we just do the murder and sometimes we talk about ourselves. I know the like okay right in and let us know. Do you guys want us to talk about ourselves, kind of talk about our days, what's been going on? Or do you like when we just jump right into the murder? Because I feel like we're back and forth, we're always doing both. Whenever you say ride in, I think someone's gonna like send us a piece of mail or something. You're like, ride in. That'd be so cool. I would love

that. I'd be freaking out. If we got like a PO box or something. Yeah, I think I mean DM or whatever. I'd be freaking out. If we got like a PO box or something. Yeah, I think I mean DM or whatever. Yeah. I think are we setting up an email soon? Yeah, yeah. I'm getting a website and email set up. Getting official.

Yeah, we're going to set up an email and a website soon so that you guys can start emailing in. You can still DM us. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Because jumping right into that, we have had a ton of suggestion cases DMed into us lately, which is awesome.

Like, please keep them coming. It makes it just, it makes it more fun for me to know that you guys are kind of interested in what we're talking about. And I am working on getting to them, so don't think I'm ignoring you. It's just, we've gotten a lot and I only do one a week. Well, I could change that. We could be doing it in two weeks, you guys want to. But I'm only doing one a week, so it's kind of hard to get to all of them. But once we get an email

set up, you guys could email them in and then they're all in the same place. And it's just a lot easier to go down the list that way. Yeah. Who I mean, it we really do love the DMs too. Because every time we're in the car, I feel like that's what our conversations are about. Oh, this person DMs is what they say. So yeah, you're normally talking to me, but Garrett, I read him almost every single time that we get and we love them. I feel like we're making like so many friends. Yeah, it's super fun. It's weird because I'm like, I have a friend in Europe. Like every, you know, go have a friend in this state. Yeah. Oh, someone message me from this place. I love it. Yeah. It makes me feel cool. Yeah. It's

been super fun. Thanks so much for sharing it and Following us and yeah, all that jazz also upon Request we posted a picture of our faces like a face reveal. I don't know that's what the that's what the younger kids call it these days A face reveal on our social media. So go check it out if you haven't yet I know sometimes when I listen to podcasts, I'm like dying to see if the face is match what I've pictured and they usually don't. But yeah, go follow us, murder with my husband, Twitter, Facebook, Instagram. We posted a picture of ourselves if you're interested in it. And yeah.

Oh, before we start, I just wanted to say that for people that are new and that are listening, maybe they haven't heard our podcast before, I just wanted to say that for people that are new and that are listening, maybe they haven't heard our podcast before, I'd never hear these stories before. It's the very first time. Oh yeah, I'll be researching whatever he has to leave the room. He doesn't even want to be in the vicinity of whatever. I don't want to know what's going on at all. I want her to tell me-

He's totally surprised, completely authentic. Totally where I want her to tell me exactly what's's I guess what's going on for the first time. And if you haven't listened before, um, jump back, go listen to our second episode. We actually don't have an episode one. We've got in a couple questions about that. We do not have an episode one. Well, we did, but it was really bad and so no one was listening to the next ones. We just didn't have like our mics yet or anything. So we just took it off. Maybe one day we'll release it for kicks and giggles. I feel like even our first couple,

we were still trying to figure out how to talk. There were definitely some awkward, I mean, there still is. There's still times where it's a little awkward. But yeah, no, it's fun. So anyways, let's jump into this. Okay. So next bow, N-E-X-P-O, YouTube channel did like a YouTube video.

He's awesome. He has a ton of subscribers. He did a YouTube video that He's awesome. He has a ton of subscribers. He did a YouTube video that covers this case. All that's interesting.com. Reddit was vital in this case. So I used it. CAUTIKAS.BLOGSpot.com. It was a blog and it was awesome.

Like she had so much information on this case. Kora, there was like, it's kind of like a Reddit. I guess there was a couple on there that I used. Strang outdoors.com. And admin. admin.biglobaltravel.com. Do you just type in Google like to try to find this information or? Yeah, so normally I just find the case I want to do just from our suggestions or I'm Googling like on Buzzfeed

or whatever, you know, top 10 cases in this place or, you know, mysterious cases that involve a chainsaw or, you know, top 10 cases in this place or, you know, mysterious cases that involve a chainsaw or, you know, just weird things that I'm like trying to get it. Mysterious cases that involve a penis. No, just kidding. If you haven't listened to our penis episode, go with it. Yeah, if you haven't listened to that episode, then you probably think it's weird.

It's the Lorraine Obobot episode. You can find it. Anyways, so this is the Chris Kramer's and Leanne Froon disappearance. So let's start. Chris Kramer's and Leanne Froon were two Dutch students from Amherst fort Amherst fort. Someone from the Netherlands, please tell me how to say that in the Netherlands. They worked together and they lived in the same housing units. They were students. Leanne was tall, athletic, and had just graduated from university.

That's college, they called the university. That's how it was when I was in Spain. Oh, really? Yeah, they call it university. So from university, in applied psychology, which is freaking cool. Like I wish I could have studied psychology, but I was just a little too dumb. She was smart and was known to be a little bit shy. She loved cold play and she kept a diary,

which you can actually go and read online. Like her diary is uploaded online. Okay. Chris was shorter than Leanne. She had just finished studying cultural, social education at university as well. Chris was the opposite of Leanne in that she was extroverted and outspoken. She had strawberry blonde hair and I mean like strawberry blonde hair, the most strawberry blonde hair I've ever seen. She loved theater and arts and she liked the red hot chili peppers. This got me thinking because I fat like I thought it was interesting that they included this. If worst case scenario, guess I go missing or something happens to me or whatever, what would you tell people my favorite music was? Oh, that's a good question.

Well, I mean, I can name some of your favorite artists, but- Yeah, what would you say? Like, they named two of their favorite artists, but it was obviously from their family. We like Miguel a lot. Ooh, I didn't even think of that one. Okay, yeah, that's a good one. We'll leave it at that.

We like Miguel. Okay, Chris had a boyfriend, though, Leanne didn't, and she also kept a diary, so both of them kept a diary. This was in 2014, by the way, I don't know if I said that. They had been working for months in the Netherlands, saving up their money because they wanted to go on a trip together to celebrate graduating. It was going to be like a year off after such intense studying, like a gap year, I think is what you call it. So after six months of saving and planning,

they decided to head to Panama in March of 2014. And all I know about Panama is like, prison break, I think season three, they like bring out of a prison in Panama. I really need to like listen to a geography podcast. There's actually part of it in history there. Yeah, I literally don't know anything about it. I'm so bad at geography, you guys.

It's bad. Their plan for this trip was to be part vacation and a part service trip. They were going to enjoy their time together in a new place but also teach arts and crafts to some local students and attempt to learn Spanish. Fun fact, Garrett speaks Spanish fluently. I don't think we've ever mentioned that.

I like to think I do too. I took three years of Spanish in high school, but all I can say is I need a burrito. So I'm not quite as good as Garrett, but you kind of brought up Spain. Yeah, yeah, I lived in Spain for two years. Basically that's how I speak Spanish fluently. I don't use it a ton anymore. I mean, I wish I did because I'm sure I'm losing some of it. Yeah, I loved it. It was Spain was so much fun. Europe is awesome. If any of you guys have never been to Europe before,

that's definitely something you should try to do at some point. Or if you're from Europe, reach out and I'll come stay with you. I have never been to Europe. I know. I need to take, we need to go sometime. Okay, anyways. So Chris and Leanne excited for their trip, head off to Panama with the best intentions.

Upon arrival, they spend some time in Boca del Toro, I think is how I say that. Working on their Spanish sightseeing and connecting with many men, two Dutch men whom they met claim they spent a lot of time together during their first two weeks. So they were just kind of hanging out at the beach, learning Spanish,

just relaxing for the first two weeks. Okay. They then traveled to Boquette, Panama, where their program with the children's school was to begin. On their first day, though, they show up and they're told, we won't need you for another week. The girls were discouraged by this mess up. They had planned everything pretty meticulously and were anxious to kind of get

started with the children's school. They just spent two weeks relaxing and you know having fun They were staying with a host family in alto book head for the next four weeks And I guess that's just like a little section of the city Uh-huh, and their host mother I guess you could call her claims that the girls were restless upon arrival and disappointed that they couldn't start Teaching right away. They were asking what they should do for the next week with no plans in the city. Okay. When they woke up the next day, they went out and wandered the town. They came home that night with many tours planned for the rest of the week. So they were like, we're just gonna explore the crap out of the city.

Yeah, because I mean that whole week right to just do whatever they want. Yeah. So now supposedly that day that they had gone out, they ran into a male tour guide who offered to tour the girls like through a hike that was near his ranch that he owned in the city. He said that they could like hike up to it, stay the night at the ranch and then come back the next day. So just because you've started to tell me so many these stories, whenever there's like something that seems sketchy now like, oh this guy offered a tour guide, I'm like, oh no, you now, like, oh, this guy offered a tour. I'm like, oh, no.

I know. So the girls though actually declined the offer. But told him, you know, just take us up the hike, not to the ranch in two days. And I feel like maybe they just didn't want to sleep at his house, but they were like, oh, you can just, you can tour us up the hike. Like you can, you can tore us up the hike. Like you can, got it. You can lead us up, you know. So the next day on Tuesday, April 1, 2014,

Chris and Leanne decide to hike the Pianista Trail. This is the same trail that the tour guide from the day before was supposed to lead them up tomorrow, but instead they wake up the next day and decide to go on their own. So I don't know if they were just like brushing off the tour guide because they got... Did they, sorry, did they know that they were going on that tour was the same place as that they just weren't hiked? Yes, I think they just were kind of like we're just going to go do it by ourselves. Okay. I don't know. They didn't ever clarify like why they were supposed to go on the same hike with that male tour guide tomorrow. And they did it the day before by themselves

at like it just kind of said that and it didn't like that's kind of weird. You know, and I don't know if they were just brushing them off or whatever. But they wake up and decide to go on their own. This hike trail was pretty famous. It ventured through the jungle and had many waterfalls that eventually

led to a beautiful view of the city. So there are some inconsistencies in this story from source to source and actually kind of a lot of them. So I'm gonna try to do my best to name those as they come up. One of those was actually, some people said the hike was actually scheduled for that day and that they just left without them.

And then some said it was scheduled for the next day. Like sources differed on that. But most of them said the next day. So that's the one I went with. This, another inconsistency was that Chris and Leanne brought a dog on this hike with them that day. But some sources say it was the host family's dog, like they woke up and took the dog that was staying at the house with them on the hike. And others say there was like a local restaurant down at the beginning of the hike

and those owners had a dog. And so when they took their taxi to the hike they stopped by the restaurant and asked if they could take the dog from the restaurant up the hike with them and the owners let them. So I mean I guess I have two questions. One is does that seem a little odd that they would just take a dog to go hiking? Yes, but I think these girls from what it seems and from their diary entries were super Trying to live up every single moment. They were talking to everybody. They were making friends So I'm not surprised if they like went to the restaurant talk to the owners

And then was like oh, is your dog just sitting here? We're going up the hike like can we take him and we'll drop him off on our way down? You know, I don't know yeah, and then so I guess my other and my other question be why is there so many Consistencies because this isn't in like 1930s. This is 2014. So I'm what I'm guessing has happened is because it's These girls are Dutch and it's in Panama the translation over to English for the case has been skewed and like just little mistakes from the translation. That's what I'm assuming has happened. And I tried, I did sources who were translating the, you know, the Dutch news to the English version.

But I mean, like you, you've told me before that translating over isn't exactly word for word. So I'm guessing that's what's happened. Okay. But either way, they bring a dog with them on the site. They both had on light clothing, shorts and tanks, one backpack, one passport, money, both of their cell phones, a digital camera, and one water bottle. Which I kind of like, I don't know, when we go on hikes, we bring two water bottles just

because we would run out of water if we shared one water bottle, which makes me feel like they didn't plan on going very far This hike was one of those hikes where it's like in three sections So you go to the first one and you can hit a lookout and stop and turn around and go back or you can keep going more advanced Hit a lookout and stop and go and then all the way to the top Okay, so I was wondering if maybe they were only going to the first look out and then the next day They were gonna do the whole thing with the tour guide or something. Because they didn't pack like they were planning. This hike is pretty intense if you're doing the whole thing.

Like you go through the jungle. Do you know how many miles it is? Did it say? Oh, it didn't say. What was in kilometers? Did it say how many kilometers? I don't think so. I don't think it said like the whole kilometers had just kept saying the distance they were walking in kilometers.

Oh, okay. But it didn't say like this whole hike was this many kilometers. So the girls I am Chris's boyfriend and let him know that they were going to go on a hike and post it on Facebook that they were exploring that day. It wasn't until later that night. I'm sorry, the I am in-stit message. Oh. Oh, sweetie.

Well, I was really confused. I guess because they're using Facebook is when I'm assuming so they heat she instant message him off. Oh, man, I'm getting old. Oh, man. Well, I thought you meant I am is like, like back when I was 10 years old, I'd like AIM people. Oh, oh, oh, I'm too young for that.

I don't know if that is me or you. That's a nevermind. Just keep going. So it wasn't until later that night, when whoever owned the dog, the restaurant or the host family grew suspicious Because the dog returned on their own without the girls Now I couldn't find if the owners were home and the dog wandered home by himself without the girls

Or if the dog was returned home and the owners came home and was like what like how the dog like the dog at home I think that this detail of knowing which is which is important, I was really frustrated I couldn't find the answer because I think it would sway my opinion on this case if I knew whether that dog was returned home or wandered home by himself. Okay, I'm excited to see why. Chris and Leanne's host family were worried when the girls didn't come home for the night, but decided to wait it out. These girls were adults after all.

The next day rolled around and the girls had still not returned. They missed an appointment with who I'm presuming was either the same male or another tour guide. And I can't tell if this is the next day or the next day. Like I said, these were this happened. I just don't know if it was second day or third day. But the tour guide shows up to the host family's house to look for the girls. Like, hey, I was supposed to have an appointment with them.

Oh. Isn't that weird? Yeah, that is weird. I think that's weird. I mean, it just depends how small maybe the town or city is. Exactly. It's a small town.

It's like, hey, we know everyone in the town. We're staying in this host family. But I just feel like if they just didn't show up, you'd be like, on to my next tour in a couple hours I guess it was a Company, yeah, I got canceled I don't I find that weird, but also I've never been to Panama. I don't know if that's like like you said the culture of the town is that way Totally could be later that day authorities and the girls families are contacted

The authorities were contacted by this military hide as well Okay, so April 3rd The authorities were contacted by this military aid as well. Okay. So April 3rd, three days after Christen Leigh Ann left for their hike, local police searched the forest with some help from locals. The girls' families were worried. They too had not heard from the girls since the first day, which was out of the norm, like these girls messaged and called them all the time while they were on vacation. Now, police were pretty absent in this case at the beginning, which sucks because

the first 48 hours of a missing person are crucial, but they didn't really look for the girls in the first 48 hours. When the girls' parents could tell that not much was being done and had still not heard anything by the sixth, which is six days later, because they went missing on the first. That's a long time. They hopped on a plane and flew out with some detectives from the Netherlands.

So they like took local detectives and threw out to Panama. I think this is happening from the research I was looking at. And this was from Dutch news. The Panama authorities are pretty closed off. Don't work well with others, which is why they brought in their own to do the investigating. Okay.

Instead of just like trusting that the Panama Police were going to investigate it for. So upon arrival, this was the first real intense search for the girls, the family and the new police. Lasting 10 days, the parents offered a $30,000 reward, but even after this exhausting attempt, hiking up and down that hike, trying to find out there was still no sign of either girl or even a clue as to what happened to them. So now it's been 16 days. Yes 16 days. Okay. Yes. Days more days weeks and then months go by with nothing. It's so devastating. These girls literally just left on this hike and disappeared. These tourist girls. Wow. This show is sponsored by BetterHelp.

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Like normally there's at least something that's like, well, they might have went, you know, here or whatever and there was just nothing. Well, like you said earlier, they obviously weren't gonna go far, they didn't have a tent, they didn't, they were just gonna go for a day hike and then was just nothing. Well, like you said earlier, they obviously weren't gonna go far. They didn't have a tent. They were just gonna go for a day hike and then and come back maybe a couple hours. It's like, they only had one water bottle.

They didn't even bring food, I don't think. Yeah, so. So it wasn't until 10 weeks later, when a local woman found Leanne's, okay, a local tribal woman, it was like a tribe in here. Whoa, okay. So they were on a res or whatever. Found Leanne's backpack on a rice patty by the river.

Do you know what a rice patty is? Yes. I don't know what a rice patty is. Well, I think I do. Isn't it like one of those things that floats in the water? Oh, is that a? No, that's not a rice patty. Is that a lily pat?

Yeah, it's a lily patty. Oh my gosh. I don't know what a rice patty is. Well, I'm pretty sure rice paddy is just because you go rice in a bunch of water. So it's just a field of a bunch of. Okay. Okay. That makes sense. That makes sense. So what. So this local woman found it, the backpack, Leanne's backpack, on this rice paddy. It was where this backpack was found was a 14 hour walking distance away from where the girls had last been seen Holy crap, so so these girls went far. That's why it was on a res They went into different territory and a local native woman found it and called authorities

That's a really long time. Oh, yeah 14 hours. The first, I mean, it had been 10 weeks. Yeah, that's true. The first suspicious thing noticed about the backpack was the condition. It was completely dry, intact, and fairly clean in the middle of a rice paddy filled in water. So it was almost like it had been set there, not like floated up onto there. Got it. It had been raining like this whole 10 weeks since the girls have been missing

It had been raining on and off not to mention if the backpack had floated down the river for 72 days That's how many days it had been it would have wear and tear it would be muddy and and it was perfectly clean The woman who found the bag and sis it wasn't there the day before she worked out there She's like I was just out here yesterday and this bag was not here. The when police opened the bag, they discover that everything inside was also dry and working. The backpack was not waterproof. It should, it should have gotten wet, been muddy.

Stuff inside should have shown similar signs as well. The items inside were the girls bras, both folded neatly on top of each other. Two pairs of sunglasses, an empty water bottle, both Chris and Leanne's cell phones. Chris had an iPhone and Leanne had a galaxy. The digital camera without its lens cap. Leanne's passport, Chris's medical insurance card and some money. No keys, because they should have their keys to their host family's house and no wallets were found. So I have a question to the bras or those bras that they had worn and had on or extra bras. They were wearing them the day of the hike. Okay. 34 fingerprints were found on the items. 13 on the backpack, 12 on the phone, and camera, and six on the

bras. Oh my gosh, I can't believe they can find that many fingerprints. These leads were never investigated by the Panama Police Department and they refused to turn them over to any outside police departments. So they're holding the DNA and the fingerprints and won't give them to the Dutch authorities. I already have a theory, but I'll you'll hold it. I'll hold it. I'll wait. The furt. Well, no, tell me what's your theory. Well, I mean, I could be totally theory, but I'll... You'll hold it? I'll hold it. Well, no, tell me. What's your theory? Well, I could be totally wrong, but I mean,

I would assume some type of drug trade, drug cartels, something of that matter, which is... You're not alone in that theory. Which is why I think that Thorities didn't hand anything over. Oh, yeah, you're not alone in that. You're so smart. The first thing I'm going to discuss is the fact that the girls took their bras off. I mean, like, I're not alone in that. You're so smart. The first thing I'm going to discuss is the fact that the girls took their bras off.

I mean, like, I hate wearing my bra. I take mine off the second I get home. But I do feel like if I was lost in the jungle, like I was hiking and I got lost, I would keep it on. I can't speak for them, but my other thought is that maybe they weren't the ones who took their own bras off and folded them into the back. So, let's dive into the information found on the cell phones as this was kind of the only

stuff they had to go on in order to find the girls. Within hours of starting the hike, that day, while it was still light out at 439 pm, a call is attempted on one of the cell phones to the Dutch emergency number 112, which is 911. Ten minutes later, another attempt was made to the same line. Panama emergency number is 911, just like the USA. But even if the call had gone through on the 112 line, it wouldn't have mattered because it still works there. So like say they called 12 for the Dutch line, even though they're in Panama, it just would have redirected to 911.

Like they work in sync. They tried 911 after those calls, but then it doesn't go through and the phones are switched off. It's not going through because they don't have connection. So they tried to call 911 or 112, whatever, while it was still light outside on their hike. Okay. What?

I don't see how many times they called them. I think that first time it was just two times and then they shut their phones off. Okay. 14 hours later, the phones are turned back on and more attempts are made to 911-112. On Wednesday the following morning calls were attempted at 6.58am, 814am, 1053am, and 156pm. Both of the girls' phones were used, so they're both using their phones to try

to call. And they switched back and forth calling 112-911. During the attempt of the 658 call, Leanne's galaxy actually connects with the 112 line for one to two seconds but then loses connection immediately. The phones were then switched off and they were also switched off in between each call. The phones were turned on less and less so the calls are getting less and less. And by day five, the Galaxy phone dies completely. It loses battery. After the Galaxy died, the iPhone was turned on, but the incorrect pin code was being entered into the iPhone.

They tried many, many times entering the wrong code. Oh, so it obviously, it wasn't her. It wasn't Chris entering the phone. Yeah, it couldn't have been. Chris' iPhone was in use until April 11th. Without the pin code entered, it was still being, it was still, because you know how you can emergency call.

So they kept trying to enter the wrong pin code, but they were also still calling 911 without entering the pin code, because on iPhone you can do that. Oh, so someone else was calling 911, maybe off of her phone? Yeah, so both phones were being used maybe off her phone. Yeah, so both ones were being used and then the Galaxy dies and they move to the iPhone. They try to enter

the pink code incorrectly, but we're still calling 911. That's crazy. On day 11, April 11th, keep in mind, day 11 in the jungle. Okay, the hike is, it starts off just like a normal hike, but then they get deep into the Panama jungle in this hike. The iPhone was turned on at 10.51 a.m. and stayed on for one hour and then was switched off never to be used again. I will upload a picture with a complete timeline, timeline of these calls on our social media so you can kind of see how often and everything, but in total 77, 112, 911, attempted calls were made until the 11th. Oh man, that's so frustrating. 77 times they tried to call for help.

Something odd about the calls is that they were all made roughly around the same time of day, but not during sunrise and not during sunset. So how would the girls have known, like they would literally flip the phone on around the same time of day every single day to try to call? And it was like they, how would they have known what time it was? They didn't have a watch. Yeah, well, we do, oh, I see what you're saying. Like they work, they made the calls like around 1, 12 every day,

and then around 3, 12, you know? Yeah, I see what you're saying. And it was like, it wasn't the sun, you know, because it wasn't sunset, it wasn't sunrise. Yeah. On to the next item from the backpack that could help the investigation, the digital camera. The camera did not have the issue of battery life

and still had battery life when it was found. There was 133 photos on the memory card. The first one starting that morning of the hike. There were pictures of each girl on the pianista trail, them together in good spirits, good weather, happy signing thumbs up and smiling big. So literally on this memory, are on this memory card, basically this camera, there's pictures of the girls on the hike, hiking, just laughing, smiling, taking pictures of the views, taking pictures of the water, posing, thumbs up,

selfies on this exact hike that morning. I mean, I guess in 2014, and because I'm just trying to think, why aren't they just using their phone to take pictures? I mean, I know people still use Yeah, so I think it was like the iPhone 5. I think is what she has so it's still pretty it was still pretty new So I think digital cameras were still okay, so a blogger wrote about this trail The trail can be broken into three sections in the first 45 minutes

You will walk through open area past your land with gorgeous views of the surrounding mountains and downtown city. Second, you enter a dense jungle surrounded by lush vegetation, birds, and insects. In here, you will walk for about an hour and a half and enter the cloud forest where it is very humid and magical. As you are literally walking in the clouds. Finally, after another 30 minutes, climbing the mountain, you will reach the top and will be fully, you know, you'll see the whole entire view. Basically,

it's a really amazing experience. Okay. Based on that review, we can determine that the girls were most likely in section one of the hike during these first pictures because they weren't in the jungle. Yeah. They were like out in the open. There was just land for days. At around 1 p.m. the girls took pictures at the first lookout point in the hike. So that first 45 minutes, the first lookout point. It's said that most people get to this lookout point, eat lunch, whatever, and then turn around

and head back down instead of going on, because the terrain and the hike in the jungle is hard and dangerous in advance. Like, only advanced hikers go onto that part. There's literally signs now when you get to that hike saying, if you're not an experienced hiker, if you're just a tourist, turn around. Don't continue.

Don't go on into the jungle. Well, it's the jungle. Like it's literally the jungle. Yeah. So, 30 pictures total of the girls were taken on the hike. The last set clearly show that they had gone into the jungle a little bit, but they had left the trail slightly. They had actually crossed, so the jungle enters, and this is the way for the one hike, but

they had crossed over onto the other side of the mountain. Still on a trail, it's just not the same trail. And that, that trail loses service. So I'm trying to think too because I'm sure this hike sounds super popular. So was there a ton of other people around the people saw them, people saw them on the hike. There's, there's eyewitnesses who were like, yeah, I saw the girls on the hike. They were in good spirits, but we turned around after the lookout and they kept going into the jungle. And they didn't even go into the jungle on this hike, they were in good spirits, but we turned around after the lookout and they kept going into the jungle. And they didn't even go into the jungle on this hike,

they went into a different trail. See, why would they keep going? Like you said, that's the part that's confusing. The water bottle. Yeah, it felt like they didn't plan. And they had researched, there's like proof that they had researched the hike beforehand.

So they knew, they knew. But there's waterfalls in the jungle, and I guess people like get to the lookout and then they're like, well, we could just hike to the first waterfall. Yeah, that makes sense. I mean, I guess it's like, when you're having fun, you're just like, oh, let's just keep going.

Yeah, we're going to water, we'll be fine. Yeah. When you download the Kroger app, you have easy access to savings every day. Shop weekly sales and get personalized coupons to get the most value out of every trip every time, whether you shop in-store or online. Download the Croger app now to save big. Croger, fresh for everyone, must have a digital account

to redeem offers. Restrictions may apply, see site for details. Save big on your favorites with the Buy, Fiver, more save a dollar each sale. Simply buy Fiver more participating items and save a dollar each with your card. Proger fresh for everyone. So they cross over to the other side of the mountain they go they lose cell service because that trail doesn't have cell service and literally pretty soon after they lose that cell service um they dialed for help because it was still daytime when they dialed for help. So the last image from that day on this on the camera is named image 508. Like, you know how it's not actually pictures 5008, but it's named image. Like when you look it up is 508.

Okay. The next photos on the camera weren't taken until about a week later in the early hours of April 8th. So they took pictures on day eight of the disappearance. And the phone was used until April 11th. Yes. Okay. But the camera, the last image of that day of them being, well, at this point, they're not in the lookout anymore.

The pictures start to go and all upload these pictures of these girls on the hike. They start not all 30 of them. They haven't even released all 30 of them. But all upload the ones I can. They start getting all 30 of them. They haven't even released all 30 of them, but I'll upload the ones I can. They start getting into the jungle and people say that the pictures, the girls start kind of looking not as happy.

I don't, I think that's a stretch. Like they don't look sad. You know what I'm saying? They're just not like thumbs up. Being it looks more like candid pictures. Like Chris is maybe taking a picture of Leanne while she's hiking or something like that. Okay. So image 508 is our last one from that day before the 911 calls start happening.

But that's strangely, and this is a big part of this case. The next photo from a week later, the ones that are taken in the middle night is image 510, which means image 509 is missing and it's been deleted from the camera. Okay. Okay. There's one photo missing. It goes 508 to 510. 509 is missing.

Do we know if it was deleted by the authorities possibly? So no. We don't know who it's deleted by. This is weird because the girls took so many photos. Like when I went to Disney World Freshman Year of High School, I just got my iPod touch and I literally took thousands of photos of everything I could. Like, so many unnecessary photos, signs,

pictures of the road, you know, this at Disneyland, this is not even of me, just like the food, like everything I could take a picture of that I'm never gonna use again. This is what the girls were doing. Like their pictures were like of the trail and of this rock and of- Well, you don't just, you don't delete your photos because you're just taking as many as you can.

Well, and that thing is like why would they delete one when there were blurry photos in the end bungee? And we could be wrong because maybe there was people that delete their photos, I don't know, but it just sounds very unlikely. They hadn't deleted one photo from their trip. Yeah. Every single photo from their trip from two weeks ago was in order, not one photo was missing. They all lined up and then they hit Image 509 on the hike during the time that the 911 calls are happening and it's deleted.

Yeah, that's weird. Oh. So not to mention it was deleted at least after the first picture a week later was taken because get this. If they had taken the picture, 509, image 509, and went, oh, I hate my smile on that, and deleted it for some reason,

even though they hadn't deleted one other picture, the next picture taken would replace 509. It would be image 509. So 509 wasn't deleted until after 510 was taken a week later. So this image wasn't deleted until a long time after it was taken. Does that make sense? Yeah, it makes sense, but it makes no sense. I know.

So the other weird part, manual deletion of a picture from the camera does not actually mean it's permanently erased. IT specialists have gone on, studied the camera and everything. They were like, we're easily going to be able to retrieve this, like they just deleted it off. It's not actually gone, but upon further investigation, they discovered it was permanently erased, which means someone plugged into the camera into a computer to permanently erase image 509. Wow. Wow. And there's like a whole bunch of like,

well, what if it had just gotten overrided after weeks did it, but like they have literally said there was even if it that does happen, it doesn't erase it completely. There was still would have been 20% of the photo or something like that. So IT specialists have said, no, this was plugged into a computer and permanently deleted. I think that's why I kind of asked the question about it being authorities. Yes.

So I'll get into that. I'll get into that. Okay. So the piece of this case is confusing and important because under the theory that the girls became lost, there was no computer in the jungle for them to delete. So was a third party involved? And if so, what was on Image 509 that made them take it to a computer, to permanently delete it? Did the girls accidentally take a picture of someone who was about to hurt them? Like was, did there was their evidence of them?

And so they had to delete it? Yeah, I mean, that's the only thing that comes to my mind. Yeah. But then the weird part is they then take the, they could have just took the camera. They then put the camera back in the backpack and nicely paste it on the rice patty.

Like, you know what I'm saying? I mean, it makes no sense. It just doesn't. So the other theory is that the Panamon detectives took the photo and deleted themselves and haven't released it. Uh-huh. Because they, like, no one else has access.

So we don't know who it was deleted by, which is a very popular theory. So you are on track with that as well. Maybe it showed something that they don't want out there for tourism. Yeah. Something like that. So the next set of photos were the nighttime ones that I was talking about a week later. A lot of the sources maybe these photos seem like they happen that night. So when I was getting on and I was reading this story, it sounded like the girls go missing, they dial 911, image 5.0 and I get deleted.

And then that night at 1 a.m. they start taking pictures with the camera. That's what all the sources made it sound like. And then I found a source that was like, these were taking one week later. And I was like, like, Whoa. I thought that was a big deal. So I was really surprised

that the sources hadn't cleared that up because there's a big difference between taking pictures that same night, you went missing or you're lost and you're scared and you're taking pictures for whatever reason and taking them a week later. You know what I'm saying? Yeah, okay. So let me just clear off our quick. So they took the first set of pictures which in the day which was the the first stretch of the hike and then the second set of pictures was a week later on the second stretch of the hike. No, it was a week later in the middle of the night so the pictures are dark. But one to four a.m. we don't know where they're at. Okay, but you can see them.

You can't see the girls. The pictures are, that's what I'm about to explain. The pictures are black with the flash on in the middle of the panel of jungle. Okay, sorry. So we don't actually know what section of, if they're even on the hike at that point, it was a week later. Got it, okay. But it's weird.

It is weird. So, yeah, and the girls don't appear in any of the pictures. Okay. It was a week later. Got it, okay. But it's weird. It is weird. It's weird. So yeah, and the girls don't appear in any of the pictures. Okay. So yeah, the one week later after the photos of them gleefully hiking in the dead of night between one to, between one and four a.m., there were 90 pictures taken of the dark.

That's so muc. This is about one picture every two minutes. I would assume they were trying to see where they're at or someone was trying to see where they're at. Yeah, you're just jumping ahead. I know. I know. I'm sorry.

So these nighttime photos are eerie and they literally do scare the crop out of me when I look at them because can you imagine being in the jungle in the middle of the night? Like, majority of the photos are pitch black. Some showing bits of the jungle, you know, bushes, trees, dirt, whatever. So they were lost, right? Well, there are few that actually show anything, and I'm gonna tell you what some of the pictures show

that actually have them from between one to four a.m. in the middle of the night. One was, it was a rock, and on top of the rock were pieces of red plastic bag tied to some branches. So they had it was like someone had taken some sticks, I'll call them sticks because they were tiny. Tied pieces of red bag on them and then laid it on the rock and took a picture of it. Huh, that is that. Some theories are that they were using the red to like flag people down like,

Oh, okay. Trying to get a helicopter to see them or something but the pieces of the red to like flag people down like trying to get a helicopter to see them or something, but the pieces of the red were so small. Like I don't I don't feel like that was enough to flag someone, but I guess you're desperate, right? It was like a red plastic bag. Yeah, I don't know. I have no idea what that could be. The next picture and there are rumors that this picture is fake. Like I said, the Panama government hasn't been the best at releasing these, so most of these are leaked. So some people say this next picture is fake, like it's not actually part of it, but then like real credible sources have used this, that's why I'm putting it in.

Okay. Is a photo of the back of Chris's head. It's literally just her hair lit up by a flash. You can't see in, it's like so cropped in that it's just hair. It's just strawberry blonde hair. Mm-hmm. Can't see anything. There was like this huge problem with someone like overlapped it with blood and so then

there was this huge rumor that it was the back of her head. I'll be in and bloody. But then detectives went in and said, no, that's not it, this is the real raw image. Some people are saying that real raw image isn't even included in the nighttime photos. So I'm not sure, but it is kind of eerie.

Like to look at that picture, I'm like, okay. Another one that has stuff in it is there's like some paper, some people are calling it toilet paper. I don't know, it's like paper on a rock. All this is on a rock again. A reflective object that looks like a tiny little mirror, the circle mirror or something, and a piece of a strap that most likely looks

like the backpack strap, and they're all like laying on a rock. Well, that would make sense because the backpack was found perfect, right? Yeah, it was just a strap, it was like half hanging in, so the backpack could have been laying and then just the strap was showing.

Okay. The reason it's important to me that these were actually taking a week after the girls were last seen is because a super popular theory for the reason, which is what you said, is that they were using the flash to see as they tried to hike somewhere for help or whatever, which first of all is scary as crap like oh, yeah, can you imagine using a flash to see in the Panama jungle because you're lost It's hard though cousin. I thought about as you were saying that again. They did have their phones

But I think they were conserving battery to call which is why they kept turning them off and on yeah, that's true Okay, it's the whole thing scares me. Like, I can't imagine. I can't imagine. Mm-hmm. This theory made sense to me though, when I thought that these pictures were taking the same night that they went missing because I was like, oh, they go missing. It starts to get dark. They're freaking out.

They start using their phone as a flash. But a week later, every two minutes, I'm like, I don't feel like that's what they were using it for because why wouldn't they have just done that the night of? Oh my gosh, it makes no sense. Every two minutes, I'm like, I don't feel like that's what they were using it for, because why wouldn't they have just done that the night of? Oh my gosh, it makes no sense. And this theory is super popular, and I think it's because no one has cleared up the fact that those pictures weren't taken that night. They were taken a week later.

And you're for sure that they were taken a week later? Yes. Oh. Another theory is that Chris, the strawberry blonde, the picture of the head, had actually been hurt. And so Leanne was going to leave after like taking care of her for a while, to leave to try to go get help because she thought she was going to die. But she used the camera to document where Chris was just in case she gets lost and doesn't

know how to get back to her. So she was taking pictures of the things around them, things that she'd left on rocks. So I thought about the hurt one because that's why I was figuring that they were using both phones because maybe they were just stuck hurting, they were just switching phones, they couldn't move, they couldn't walk. So that's what my first thought was

when we first started this story. Yeah, I feel like this theory is pretty plausible. Like they've stayed together as girls, but now they realize no help is coming. It's a week later. And so Chris is like, you have to go get help. And Leana is like, okay, I'm gonna separate you. I'm gonna leave you. I'm gonna hike,

because Chris can't walk or something. And I'm gonna try to go get help. And she starts taking pictures of things to remember where Chris is, so that if she does find someone they know how to get back. But why would she go in the middle of the night? I was just going to say, why don't you just wait until the daytime.

It just doesn't make sense. Oh man, I don't know. Anyway, so this is a theory I think is very plausible. This is my favorite theory. The last theory is that they were using the flash to try and signal for help. Like maybe they had thought that someone was nearby and they were using it like a flare gun. Like putting it in the camera, flashing it over every two minutes, just like yelling for help, like trying to get someone to come. Maybe they woke up it's 1 a.m. and they heard something, people or something. And they were like,

someone's nearby because that would make sense. Why at 1 a.m. and they heard something, people or something. Yeah. And they were like, someone's nearby because that would make sense. Why at 1 a.m. You know? Mm hmm. So after the cops had gone through the evidence inside the backpack found by the local, they knew that they had to continue searching around the area for more clues. Some native people from the tribe helped them out with the search. And on June 19th, 2014, bones were found on the land. Oh, no. They found bones, gene shorts, and two different shoes along the river. This is all along that river.

The genes were found folded neatly on top of a rock, according to some sources, and floating in the river according to others. That is so creepy. The bones were found hours away from the backpack. Where the backpack was placed, their bones were found. So question real quick, so bones. How do they find bones if it's only been, how long has it been?

Three months, it's been three months. See that, it's such a short time that... Babe, you should have just told this case because you were jumping ahead of everything that was supposed to say. I feel like I'm usually not this interested. That's rude. Not in that way, but you know what I mean. Yeah, I know what you mean.

You don't like it. You hate it. So there weren't very many bones found obviously and they were both connected back to Chris and Leanne. They were their bones. Man, that's so sad. The next thing found was a shoe, but it wasn't just a shoe.

It was a boot, but it wasn't just a shoe. It was a boot, but it wasn't just a boot. It had a sock in it, and it didn't just have a sock in it. It had a foot in it. With skin and tissue still attached. Oh my gosh. See, this is the part where I started to check out. Not check out, but I'm like, you are kidding me. The boot had been tied around the ankle like a boot would, and the foot was secured inside, and it had just been plopped off. It would and the foot was secured inside and it had just been Plopped off it was just the foot in the boot and it was confirmed to be Leanne's foot I I was confused when I first heard this thinking you know How could a foot have just been severed off pretty cleanly?

No bite marks no tool marks on the bone. No anything of natural causes like how did that just fall? Like no one was making a big deal about this. Yeah. And I was like, what the heck? But her foot was definitely, you know, obviously, and her foot was definitely cut off by someone. Yeah. But upon further study, I found out that decomposition can actually take a foot off.

Like the ankle bone can actually deteriorate enough that it just like falls off. But it's only been three months. But it's only been three months. OK. So a piece of pelvis bone,. But it's only been three months. Okay. So a piece of pelvis bone, like a whole half of a pelvis bone, like it's just been broken half. And a rib belonging to Chris were also found

the strange part. These bones were bleached. Bleached, yeah, you heard me bleached. What? Like they had been put in bleach, completely cleaned and they were found completely clean. Oh, so someone was hiding DNA or something of that sort or it was something completely just crazy. Yeah, I don't know how it's just like it. But I'm thinking like how could it

be naturally bleached? Like I know bones can get naturally cleaned off by bugs, you know, first the big animals come and then the small animals come and the insects come. And I give that they, you know, when you find like, um, more shed hunting, when you're shed hunting, if those of you don't know, if you go out in like, what would you call it? Just like open lands there, you can find bones of dead animals. Both are sheds. They're sheds. They just shed them off. Yes, yes, yes, not dead animals. Sorry, just their sheds. And they're like completely clean because like bugs and everything just pick out of them and stuff. But not bleached, a bug doesn't come bleach a bone, right? Like they found bleach on the bone. I don't even know.

So how does that make sense, whatever? Another strange fact about the bones was that there was still some skin and even pieces of tissue found on them and near them. There was a ball of Chris's skin and tissue found. This means that Decomp wasn't as far along as they had thought, concluding that the girls had been alive longer than they originally thought, which makes people think that all of the bones and the bodies were manipulated by a third party kept somewhere that altered

the natural process of decomp. Because if Leansfa was decomposed enough that it literally fell off her shin bone, you know, but then these bones still have skin and tissue on them. That doesn't make sense. No, it doesn't make sense. That I mean. And also the weather was kind of cold, so they were saying it was like it preserve it more preserve. Yeah, so I'm it's so hard because these cases right you we have all these theories and you I mean all the theories

You've read and of people's different theories on red it whatever may be and then it's it's sad when it Come to this end because it's just like, well, most likely it was probably, but we all think it was at the beginning, they got kidnapped or they got killed or they got raped. Horrible, that is, it was most likely one of those outcomes. I mean, essentially, we don't know what happened to Chris Kramer as a landfruin. Their families have hiked the exact trail

and went all the way to where the girls were found, walked those 14 hours to where those girls were found. And they claimed that it's trell the whole way that shouldn't have been really hard to get lost. Like there were no big drop-offs or ravines for the girls to get hurt. They were smart girls. They were going. Yeah. One of the dads said you literally have to make an effort to get lost walking on that. There was never a cause of death determined either because they didn't collect enough bones. The case was originally declared a homicide and that the girls had been abducted,

but when no evidence was presented to back that up, they closed the case and considered it an accident. According to officials, the girls became lost and then died because of the elements or because of an injury or a fall. They think Chris fell first and then Leanne tended to her and then when Leanne's phone died, she got on Chris' phone and tried to unlock it but didn't know Chris' password but kept calling 911. And then eventually left her and took all those pictures

to try to figure out how to get back and then she too also passed away somewhere along the way of an animal could have killed him, could have killed her. She could have fell or died. They could have died from thirst or hunger. The elements, it was also cold. The girls didn't have much protection from it. There was no food.

They only had one water bottle and they had no cell service. There's so much to the story because you think, oh, it could have been an animal, but then what about the bones and the food? There's just so much to it. I too want to think it was an accident, but then there's things that make me question it like the dog. I'm like you said, we just don't know what happened.

The dog returning home, was he brought home? Did someone a third party bring him home? Did he literally randomly make his way all the way back home after the girls got lost? Yeah. And also the dog wasn't in any pictures. Or like you said, the picture that was deleted. Yeah, image 509 being deleted from a computer. And this picture feels like the missing link between everything being Gucci with the girls and then everything going wrong

Mm-hmm, and it's gone the backpack being found cleanly and neatly set down on a rice patty Like who did that who said it there? Yeah Chris's shorts being folded on a rock maybe and the bleaching of the bones the decom Inconsistency I do think that the tour guide who showed up to the house is weird. He has a ranch right by where they were hiking, remember? Who cares that much? He also supposedly inserted himself into the investigation, which is something we've seen with guilty people before. I also think it's weird that they only called for help twice that day, the first day, and then turn their phone off for 14 hours before trying again. Yeah, it was kind of weird.

Not to mention the incorrect pin being put in after the Samsung died, even if it was Leanne and she didn't know the code, which I find weird, I think she would have known the code by then. Why did she need to get in it when she knew she could just make an emergency call without it? Yeah, I mean, I think overall, I think there's some sort of foul play. Obviously, we don't know, but I, I feel like there has to have been some sort of foul play. I think another part that we just skimmed over was they left the iPhone on the last day for

an hour and a half. They kept turning them on and off trying to conserve battery. And then the last day they used it. I think like they were so conscious of saving battery, it feels like whoever had it that day was trying to drain the battery or make it look like it had died. I personally don't think the nighttime photos are weird. Besides the fact, I don't think the stuff in the, like a lot of people get obsessed of the pictures they were taking. I don't think it's that weird because I think they could have been using it for something else other than the fact that they were taking a week after.

That is the part that concerns me a little bit. Yeah, I agree. If a third party was involved, why would the girls have kept calling 911? Wouldn't he or he or she or whoever was involved took their phones? Why was it keep getting dialed for help and turning on and off if they were in trouble? How do they have access to their phones? How could they keep dialing? Oh, man, I don't know. I also find it weird that they only attempted emergency services.

If I thought I was in trouble or going to die, I would have tried to call you. I would have left you a message. I would have tried to call my parents. I mean, it wouldn't have gone through, but I would have tried. People I wanted to talk to, others who have been in trouble before with phones have done this.

People who were on the 9-11 playing crashes called their family. There was a girl who fell off a cliff and broke her back and couldn't get up and she was just sitting there waiting to get saved. She was making videos for her family thinking she was about to die but when they find my body, hopefully they'll find these videos. These girls didn't make any attempt to accept who emergency services which makes me feel like maybe it was the bad guys. Just setting everything up. Yeah, setting it up.

Yeah, who knows? There are many other tourist disappearances in this area. The government there kind of keeps it hidden. The Dutch government can't get all the details. So we might not even know the half of this case. This is my personal opinion. I feel like maybe they got lost, even hurt, like maybe one of the girls fell or something and got hurt, which is why they called. They then heard people in the

jungle that night between 1 and 4 a.m. and they used the camera to signal them. But there are groups of dangerous people in that area where they were. I mean, in those jungles, I think that when they heard this group of people in signal them, maybe they were. I mean, in those jungles, I think that when they heard this group of people in SignalDum, maybe they were predators. And they ended up hurting the girls, messing with the bodies, selling them in sex, who knows? Because it was a long time, and the decomp wasn't as far along as we thought, so maybe they did stay alive for a long time.

So real quick, because we're getting towards the end, did they send any a little longer. So real quick, because we're getting towards the end. Did they send any messages? No. And also the camera had video footage, ability, and they didn't take one video. Yeah. I think the people messed with the bodies, fold the clothes, drop the backpack off.

This doesn't explain the photo deletion, except for maybe, I don't know. I don't know why they would have deleted the photo because if my theory, they wouldn't have come until a week later. So they would have been in the photo. Maybe it was an accident. Maybe the girls. I don't know. How do you plug it in and delete it by accident? It does explain why the government would protect their own though and not release stuff. If these girls did run into foul play for tourism and everything. Totally. Yeah. That's all I got into foul play for tourism and everything. Totally.

But yeah, that's all I got on this case. Oh, that's a crazy one. I know. There's just so many theories that run through my head, so many things it could be, but I think I'm kind of lost with this one. I don't. I know.

You're going to want to check out the photos all post for this one, because it really does really help put a bow tie on this case for you when you can see because this case has a lot to do with what they had. And so the photos help, the phone call log is going to freak you out. You're going to be like, what the heck? Like why? And yeah, so make sure to check those out on our social media because those are really

going to tie along well with this case. And I feel like this is one where we could dive into every theory and this could be a six hour podcast. Oh, I agree. I agree completely. Like I skimmed it, you know what I'm saying? And I still had 11 pages of research, you know? And it's still an hour almost.

Yeah, I mean, this is a crazy one. And there are a lot of discussions on Reddit and stuff, a YouTube, everything about this. So if you are interested, go look it up, dive more. Or go to our page and start talking about it I always comment back people comment back we can get a discussion going on what your theory is if I missed a detail which Guys, I'm not gonna be perfect. I promise there's gonna be times where I miss a detail or I get a detail wrong Tell me like we've had cases where people have been like I also heard this about about this case. Even if it's a conspiracy theory, I don't care.

Like, I still want to know. Yep. So yeah, um, that's the case of Chris Kremers and Leanne Froon, the disappearance murder, I guess you could call it. Maybe not murder. Yeah, we don't know. We don't know. We don't know.

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