Murder With My Husband - MWMH x HSP: A Murder Mystery

Episode Date: November 15, 2023

Join Payton and special guest Kaelyn Moore from Heart Starts Pounding, as they unravel the mysteries behind two compelling cases. Find more of Kaelyn Moore at https://www.heartstartspounding.com/ Case Sources:  “Footprints of Courage: Our Family’s Struggle for Justice” by Jan Jenkins Twincities.com - https://www.twincities.com/2007/07/31/no-charges-for-now-against-suspect-in-college-students-02-death/ MPRNews.org- https://www.mprnews.org/story/2006/11/20/jenkins ABC News - https://abcnews.go.com/GMA/story?id=4738621&page=1 MNDaily.com - https://mndaily.com/245046/uncategorized/cause-chris-jenkins-death-still-mystery/ CNN.com - https://www.cnn.com/2008/CRIME/05/21/smiley.face.killer/ Medium.com - https://medium.com/true-crime-addiction/did-the-smiley-face-killer-strike-on-halloween-c0cfab022100 AETV - https://www.aetv.com/real-crime/are-the-smiley-face-killers-real FBI Archives - https://archives.fbi.gov/archives/news/pressrel/press-releases/fbi-statement-regarding-midwest-river-deaths TheDailyBeast.com - https://www.thedailybeast.com/is-a-serial-killer-gang-murdering-young-men-across-the-us Newsweek.com - https://www.newsweek.com/who-smiley-face-killer-chicago-deaths-spark-serial-killer-questions-1780257 ABC 7 - https://abc7.com/archive/6108153/ HomicideCenter.org - http://homicidecenter.org/wp-content/uploads/2021/12/Research-Brief-on-Smiley-Face-Murder-Theory-FINAL.pdf Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Your business has grown fast, from opening your first location to planning an expansion in no time. And with your business platinum card from American Express, you can access spending power and payment flexibility to fuel your growth. Sarah, the contractor is here with the plans. American Express, don't do business without it. Terms and conditions apply visit mx.ca slash business platinum. Hey everybody welcome back to the podcast. This is Murder With My Husband plus a bonus. Garrett is not here but I am with my really really good friend, Kaylyn. She's from Heart Starts Pounding,

and I'm really excited for you guys to get to know her today. So welcome. We're doing a fun collab. Tell us something. Tell us something about your show, something, anything. Yeah, I was actually thinking today's kind of like murder with my work wife. Oh, I've got to murder with my husband.

Yes. Yeah, so I host Heart Starts Pounding, Horrors, Hauntings and Mysteries. And it's exactly that. It's a podcast for the Darkly Curious, where we go through different horrors, Hauntings and Mysteries. Sometimes it's an old case, sometimes it's a disappearance,

sometimes it's something supernatural. It's each episode is just a deep dive into whatever Darkly Curious thing I'm fixating on that week. And it's just me doing the show too. So it's really storytelling focused. And yeah, we have a good time. If you are ever like, what is 10 things that would just make me eerily uncomfortable?

Yeah. Our show is for you. Like the most just curious, dark, mysterious show. We'll do like urban legends that were really true. Sometimes we do Appalachian folklore. Sometimes we'll look at what the underground body trade at Harvard is doing. Yeah. It's a wide range of topics, but it is definitely for people who are a little morbidly curious.

Yeah. And again, that's heart starts pounding. Go check it out. But we're going to give you a little taste of it actually on today's episode. So, Kaylyn is gonna start and then I'm gonna follow it up with a typical murder with my husband case. So, stick around and listen. Well, hello, Payton.

Hi. So, it's just to be here, big fan of you guys. But also, I'm really excited to be here because I have a disappearance today that I want to talk about. That I truly have not been able to stop thinking about since I started looking into it. And I just want to be able to tell someone. We were kind of talking about how like I do my podcast in my closet, so I don't ever get feedback on what's happening. But I'm really excited for you to hear this so that we can actually, I just want someone to talk to about it.

Yeah. Because I've been really thinking about this one. Well, I'm not gonna lie. I read through Yeah a little bit about the case and I am I'm so confused right and I just don't know how it's even possible So I'm excited for everyone to hear. I'm really curious what everyone's gonna think about this one Yeah, all right, so I'm going to set the stage. OK. The evening of July 4, 1928 was beautiful. A pilot named Captain Drew looked up at the sky

and he noticed that there wasn't a single cloud. He could not have asked for better weather to fly a small private plane from London to Brussels for his most esteemed client. So that evening, he was to take the high profile client as well as his posse a short distance over the English channel. And the attendance of the flight included the plane's mechanic, two typists, the client's secretary and the client's valet. And of course, there was also the man of the hour, the reason that they were all there. Alfred

Lowenstein. Yes. So you might not recognize this name now. I didn't. Yeah, he's not a household name, but if you were alive at the time, you absolutely would have known who he was. He was 51 at the time, and when he boarded that flight the evening of July 4th, he was the third richest man in the world. Which is actually insane.

Wild. Wild. And for reference, I put this down too. When I was writing this script, I looked up who the third richest person was, and it's Jeff Bezos. Right. So obviously, it's someone that we all would know that the whole world would know about. Really high profile client.

It just goes to show you, like, if we all know who Jeff Bezos was every one knew who Alfred was at the time. It really puts it into context. So similar to Jeff Bezos and kind of like the upper echelon of all of today's society, Alfred really liked to spend his money. So for one, this wasn't his only private plane. He had 21 other planes that he kept in a stable by his horses. One time he even sent one of his planes all the way to Russia to pick up He had 21 other planes that he kept in a stable by his horses. One time he even sent one of his planes all the way to Russia to pick up caviar for a party he was throwing. Yeah.

Really loved to spend his money. Yeah. He also owned three homes, eight villas, and it's calculated that his weekly, weekly household budget was $100,000, which is $1.7 million today. And what year is this again? 1928. Like $100,000 in 1928. $1.7 million today. So it makes sense going and getting caviar is like a drop in the bucket for him. And so yeah, that all goes to say that he was capital R rich.

Right. And how did he make his money? So he made most of his money actually by supplying power facilities to developing countries, which was an industry that was really booming after World War I. Sure. And on top of being this prolific businessman, he also was using his fortune to invest in other companies. So he kind of had this exponential growth in his wealth.

But that night, the night of July 4, 1928, he wasn't going somewhere for business, he wasn't just setting on vacation or heading to Russia for more caviar. He was going home to Brussels to see his wife where he was from. He was just going home. So I don't know if you've ever made the flight from London to Brussels. No. But it's really short. So today, it would take about an hour for that flight, but back then, in 1928, planes went

a little bit slower. It still wasn't going to take all that long for them to make this flight, right? So it took off at about 6 p.m. and he was going to get home later that evening. And for the first half of the flight, Alfred sat in his seat just taking notes and reading, which is what he would normally do on these flights. Once they were up over the English channel, however, he put down his notebook and he walked to the back of the small jet where the restroom was located without saying anything to anyone.

Correct. Just got up and walked back. Got up and walked to the back. Right. But someone noticed him do this. So Fred Baxter was his valet and he watched his Alfred got up and walked to the back. Right. But someone noticed him do this. So Fred Baxter was his valet. And he watched his Alfred got up and walked through the back door to the back of the plane. And this, it wasn't like a plane today.

You know, on planes today, you can see all the way back and you can see the flight attendance, you can see the bathrooms. Right. This plane had a door in between the cabin in the back. So you would open the door and then in the back you would see the bathroom. Right. So Baxter watched the door close behind Alfred and Baxter just went back to reading his book. There's my rich client. Now I'm going to just go back to reading my books. Everything's great. Still rich. Still rich. He poops gold.

Yeah, exactly. So a few minutes pass and Baxter looks back towards the door and he realizes that Alfred hasn't come back. He didn't really think much of it this first time, but a few more minutes pass and Alfred still didn't come back and then a few more minutes. Yeah. And Alfred didn't come back and Baxter starts getting this weird feeling and something in him tells him he should go back and just check on Alfred, which side note,

just putting myself in that position of like, how panic do you have to be to go see how your boss is doing in the bathroom? Right, like that's, yes. He must have had a really bad feeling because that takes a lot. So he walks through the door to the back and he knocks on the bathroom door and he asks

is everything okay, but he doesn't hear anything back. Okay. So he knocks again this time louder, but there's still nothing. And he starts panicking in this moment. He assumes that Alfred has had some sort of medical emergency, so he forces the bathroom door open and he finds nothing. Alfred is not in the bathroom. Alfred is not on the plane at all. Yeah, I was going to say we're on a plane here. Where could he have disappeared to? Where could he have disappeared to? Somehow in the last 10 minutes Alfred had completely vanished. Yeah. The only proof that he had been back there at all was his neck tie, which was laying on the floor. Right. So what happened next?

Like, what does Baxter do from here? He runs to the front of the plane to try and get the pilot's attention. And again, this model of plane is different from a plane today. You can't just knock on the door and the pilot can come back out. This type of plane only had a small circular window that the pilot could look back at the cabin through. If he wanted to get into the cabin, he would have to land the plane, get out, and walk around.

So what Baxter does is he has a piece of paper on him and he writes, Captain's gone and he slaps it up against the window. And finally gets the pilot's attention who starts freaking out and they land the plane. And I can't even imagine, like, what do you mean? Yeah. What do you mean he's gone? Like, where? Gone.

Yes. Can you imagine as a pilot getting that message, someone is gone from the plane. At this point, when they land the plane, they're starting to come over France, so they land on the beach of France. But as they're landing on what they think is an empty beach, in the distance the French army who is actually running drills for World War II, which was ramping up, sees the plane land and they start running over to see what's going on. Yeah. And one of the soldiers was this guy, Lieutenant Markois. And he immediately

starts talking to the pilot, but the pilot is panicking, and he's not telling the lieutenant why. So the lieutenant kind of notes this as being strange, that he's not giving him any answers. And it actually takes him 30 minutes to come clean about why they landed and explain that, yes, a passenger did disappear while on the flight. And it's at this moment when backster the valet admits that aside from the empty restroom there was another strange thing that he noticed in the back of the plane. So when you walk through the back door to the back of the plane on your left would be the restroom but on your right would be the exit. Right.

The door to the outside. Of the plane. Of the plane. Yeah. Into the air. And when Baxter went back to check on Alfred, the latch on that door, the exit was undone. Okay. If the theory which now became, that Alfred had somehow gone out of that door to get off the plane because I was

playing mid-flight. The question now becomes how and why did that happen? So as they're kind of rationalizing to themselves how this could have happened, one of the theories that comes up is that maybe he did try to go to the bathroom, but somehow went through the exit instead. It took the wrong door. It took the wrong way. It took the wrong way. It took the wrong way.

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You would go, oh that's air and not step out. Exactly. Well it also looks totally different. Even I mean on airplanes today they look totally different but back then the doors also looked different. Yeah one was latched, one was more of a handle, one has a, yeah, they're completely different. So it would be strange for him to get that confused yet, but some of his staff at his home in Brussels did mention that when he got stressed, he would barge through the wrong

doors kind of in a tizzy. One of his secretaries actually claimed that undoubtedly Alfred must have gotten confused and gone through the wrong door, falling out of the plane. I think also it's the 20s. Like I think now we're like, no, that did not happen, but I feel like back then for his staff to be like,

oh no, undoubtedly he did this all the time. He must have done this in there. Absolutely. If he did this at home, he would have done this on the plane. But there's such a difference between my bathroom and my bedroom and the exit of the plane and a bathroom. The pilot is kind of thinking this over

and he is like, no, he didn't accidentally go through the exit. That's impossible. As the news of this start spreading, like other people start realizing that that was probably impossible as well. And actually a memorial service for Alfred was postponed in Brussels because people were not convinced

that he had accidentally fallen out of the plane and was dead. Yeah. What happened next was people started to actually test that theory. Could someone have opened the door mid-flight and fallen out of the plane and was dead. Yeah. What happened next was people started to actually test that theory. Could someone have opened the door mid-flight and fallen out of the plane? Right. This is where I want to make a note about flying in the 20s. We've kind of talked about this model of plane. Obviously, it looks very different from models of planes today.

But flying in general was very different. Back then, planes only ascended to 4,000 feet. Yeah. And because they were so low to the ground, they didn't pressurize the cabins. So the pressure inside the plane was the same as the pressure outside the plane and as a result, yes, in theory it would have been easier back then to open a plane door mid-flight than it would be today.

Sometimes you might hear a horror story of a plane today being opened mid-flight. That doesn't happen when you're at cruising altitude at like 30,000 feet. It tends to happen when you're under 10,000 feet. Someone could open the door, but you also have all of the wind outside to fight against. It's still not easy to open that door. And as they started doing experiments, that just was proven true. One of the guys that tried to open the door mid-light was this guy major Cooper Who was an inspector of accidents for the air ministry? He went up with a team and this is the most 1920s thing ever. He tied a rope around his shoulders Okay, he when he gets out there starts throwing himself against the door

Trying to open it midflight and he could only get it with his whole body weight open about six inches okay but he's not done with the experiment then he keeps trying to force himself out of the plane to see if even with the door open six inches if you could get out and eventually he gets pinned between the door and the plane and can't move it's body anymore and the wind is just whipping and trying to force the door back closed. Right. So then another two mechanics also tried to go up and they couldn't get it open mid-flight even with the two of them. But at the same time, the police are starting to get phone calls and letters from people,

mostly men who were saying that they had opened these doors mid-flight. Alfred's secretary actually came forward and said one time he accidentally opened the door mid-flight when they were flying to Paris. But every experiment they did said that it wasn't true. It was just these anecdotal letters. Right, so it's kind of like what's the truth here? Exactly, exactly. Are people trying to say they're really strong? Yeah, did some people actually try to open the door mid-flight? Like, what's the truth? Or are they trying to make it still seem like an accident? Exactly, exactly. will actually try to open the door midflight, like, what's the truth? Or are they trying to make it still seem like an accident?

Exactly. Like his staff. Or some people really did say, oh no, this wasn't accidental. Yes. There's lots of theories that are at this point in the story floating around. He's one of the most high profile men on the planet. It would be a big deal if Jeff Bezos disappeared on his private plane while flying to the Bahamas. He was in a blue origin rocket going up and he disappeared. Like everyone's going to be talking about this. Also, there's always conspiracy theories

with billionaires. You know, we were really talking about this. But then on July 19th, which was just over two weeks since Alfred disappeared, a body was found. Okay. That afternoon, a fishing boat picked up a body in the channel that looked really badly beaten. The fisherman who found him actually thought it was a soldier who had fallen overboard one of the French soldiers like near Normandy. Yep. The body was only in undergarments, socks,

and had one shoe on. Both of the feet were broken, and there were injuries on the left side of the chest. There was no sign of drowning. The injuries were consistent with a great fall. They were external, not signs of drowning. However, the face was too disfigured to identify based on the face. So this body was identified as Alfred solely by the watch that was on his left wrist.

Because it had an inscription that read Captain Lowe and Steen and then his address. It feels like a pretty good idea, but you're not getting that 100% sure. Absolutely. And one thing I will say about this case as well is it was international waters. He was Brussels, he was taking a flight from London. about this case as well, is it was international waters, he was Brussels, he was taking a flight from London, there was a lot of confusion as to who should have been looking into this.

So it was a fisherman that found him, it wasn't a search and rescue team. So as he's being identified by his wristwatch, I also can't help but think that maybe there just wasn't any precedent over who was supposed to be looking into it. Though his body was recovered, I want to talk about some of the theories as to what happened, because a lot of people still believe that this is a disappearance, that having his body doesn't really change because of that really.

We're having a body, exactly. Right. There's a lot of theories about that. So one of the first big theories that people have is it has threads of DB Cooper. So a lot of people are like, did he orchestrate this? For one, the body obviously was only identified by his watch. And if he truly wanted to get away for some reason, he could have slapped his watch on some poor guy and thrown him out of the plane or dumped him in the channel some other way. And that theory also says that if it wasn't Alfred

getting out of the plane there, there is a chance that when they landed in France, it was actually so he could escape. Yes, but then that would mean that the entire staff plus the pilots were in on this. It would mean that there was an orchestrated entire staff that's on the plane. That's on the plane. That's all of the people that were on that plane were in on this. It would mean that there was an orchestrated entire staff that's on the plane. That's on the plane.

That's all of the people that were on that plane were in on this and that he potentially, there was a car that met them down there and drove off. The French Army was there. There was someone who was patrolling in the French Army who said they didn't see anyone get off the plane and leave, but it could have happened so fast. It could have been far away, who knows.

But why would he want to orchestrate his disappearance? Yeah, then you have to have a reason. You have to have a reason. You're the third richest man. Yes. You can do whatever you want in life. Why would you abandon that life? So his friends insisted that his life stresses were trivial

and that he wasn't necessarily in any financial trouble. But he did recently not get approved for $25 million US loan. And that seemed to be a really big blow to him. So some people were reporting that this loan was going to be used for other business development ventures that he had. He took it out in America. It was potentially for like American business ventures he wanted to pursue.

But the New York Times also reported that there were rumors he was in more financial trouble than he was letting on. And this loan was actually supposed to help him straighten some of that out. Then he couldn't get it. It was just, which is so funny because, I mean, not funny, but I can't imagine being so upset about not getting $25 million.

$25 million. But again, this is someone who was a billionaire even in the 20s. Well, it makes me think of inventing Anna. Did you watch that Netflix series? When she doesn't get approved for her loan and granted, she was like a fraud. Of course.

But it, I mean, it destroys her. It destroys people around her. I just think this is something that we, as common folk, can't relate to. Of course, especially if you're using that to dig you out of a hole. And that lifeline is now gone. Yep, I am out of it.

But I have seen other murders or disappearances where I'm in financial trouble and I need to fake my death or get out of here to fix it. Of course, yeah. That seems like a good idea when you're in a really dire in financial trouble and I need to fake my death or get out of here to fix it. Of course. Yeah. That seems like a good idea when you're in a really dire situation like that. So there was also a little bit of a slump in the Brussels stock market around the time

that his disappearance occurred. And at the time he was such a prolific businessman, he kind of was the Brussels stock market. So any dip really negatively affected all of his businesses. So there was a theory that maybe he orchestrated his disappearance because things were slumping and he wanted to disappear. Either it was to protect his companies or to get out of the trouble.

But if that was the case, then it actually had the exact opposite effect because his disappearance caused the stock market and Brussels to dip even further. Of course. As a result, obviously that would happen too if like the CEO, if there's any shake up at a major company, you know, the stock's always affected. So another prevailing theory, which this is the one that I keep turning to.

So there's a theory that he had a medical emergency while on the plane. Right. Reportedly, Alfred had issues with his blood pressure and would sometimes have these fits that were kind of similar to heart attacks, at least to bystanders. They seemed like they were heart attacks. And the theory is that he started having one of these fits and in an attempt to get some air, he actually tried to open the exit door. And that would also explain why his necktie was off when they found when they went

looking for him as necktie was on the floor. So you still have the issue with that theory of the plane door just being so hard to open. Yeah, I couldn't even get it open. Couldn't even get it open. But if the plane hit turbulence at the exact right moment, some mechanics mentioned the door would have possibly been able to swing open for a moment and then just slam back shut from the wind. My question is, I'm thinking of a 20s plane, how would known have heard that door open and close? Well, that's a great question. And actually flying back then was a lot louder than it was today. Because you would hear the engine, you hear the whole plane was made of wood and metal too,

so it makes noise, the engines were louder. There are reports of how loud it was to fly. You couldn't necessarily have a conversation on a plane in the Chinese. So if someone was in the back of the plane, a door is closed, it is reasonable to think that they didn't hear the door open and close. Okay. It's not, yeah, when I hear that, I guess I'm not like, oh, that's impossible.

They definitely would have heard of that. It kind of makes sense that they wouldn't have, however, again, it's a loud door. Like if it's slamming shut from hundreds of miles an hour of wind, like it's gonna close really loudly. This would have had to be perfectly timed with Alfred getting air also. Yeah. So it is kind of like a one in a million chance. Obviously, those still happen. Having the attack, he has to push open the door, he has to take his neck tie off, and then he has to hit turbulence. Exactly. All in like in one foul swoop so that it all can happen right at the exact moment. So the problem with that theory is Alfred's doctor came forward and said that Alfred was actually in perfect health, which we can kind of take

with a grain of salt, but he said that these fits were not really as bad as people were making them out to be. Also, Baxter told the police that Alfred was smiling when he got up and walked to the back. It didn't look at least to the people on the plane like he was having a medical emergency when he went back there. Okay. Which is interesting. He didn't necessarily get up with

urgency and yeah, they were saying it didn't, it didn't look like an emergency to him. Right. There's also some conflicting reports on the level of urgency. Alfred was having when he got up to walk to the back, but by conflicting reports, I mean, Baxter said he was smiling. One person said he got up and was walking fast. It's not really enough to be like, oh, that was a medical emergency that was in the midst of happening. He did. Turned to anyone and say, I think I'm having a hard attack, essentially.

So on top of all of this, no one really mentioned in any of their interviews any strong jolts that the plane encountered while Alfred was in the back. Every interview I read, no one talked about the turbulence. Maybe it was a thing where it was just more common back than planes shook more, but at 4,000 feet, you're not hitting the same amount of turbulence as you hit at 30,000. So there's also the last theory is that someone planned it. Yep. That it wasn't Alfred.

It wasn't an accident. It was intentionally planned by someone. And one of the suspects that people think of is Alfred's wife actually. So when the plane landed in Brussels without Alfred, his wife wanted it to be sent straight back to London. The only thing she said was, let it be sold. I don't ever want to see it again. Interesting. I mean, people in grief, you can't ever really judge what they say in grief, but she also never went to his memorial service. Okay. And that's one where,

I mean, your wife, you can put yourself in that perspective of like not showing up to your husband's memorial service is, that's really intense. It's quite weird. Yeah, it is. People are going to look at that. Right. Even if there was a legitimate reason, people are going to look at that and think it's

weird. And then there was how a few insurance policies had also recently been taken out on Alfred. The New York Times never figured out who took out these insurance policies, but they were for amounts that totaled around half a million pounds. Policies that specifically covered if Alfred took his own life or was in a horrible accident. And it could have been his wife who took out these policies, but it also could have been someone who Alfred did business with, who was taking insurance on the businesses. And basically I'll end it with this, but that day all the staff said they believed it was an accident. They could have been paid off to say that,

but no one ever changed their story. Everyone stuck to their story till the day they died. Could six people stay silent on the matter for the rest of their lives? With none of them ever giving up any information as to what happened? Yeah. And could someone that famous stay hidden if he did fake his own disappearance?

Absolutely. It definitely would have been easier back then. There would have been now. But he was in so many newspapers. His image was definitely out there. People knew what he looked like. Everyone knew he was missing. Yeah.

Can you just go retire to a resort somewhere? Yeah, I mean, I guess. There are people who believe that there are famous people who have done that now. Yeah, it's interesting actually because when I was reading, most of this information comes from Old New York Times articles, and they were talking about when this disappearance happened, it had been 16 years since the Titanic sank.

Okay. And a lot of people in that time started coming up with Titanic conspiracy theories as well. And it is this thing, like the further away we get from something that happened, the more our brains just are like, what really happened? So when they were writing these articles, people thought that the captain of the Titanic had lied about, or it was a big lie that he was on the Titanic when it sank and that he actually had escaped somewhere to get away from the back press. It was a big lie that he was on the Titanic when it sank and that he actually had escaped somewhere to get away from the back press.

It was alive. So yeah, is that what people are doing to Alfred now too? Yeah, yeah. It's just so curious. It's so, so bizarre. Because even if it was an accident, which I may be inclined to think it was, it's just such a one in a million, billion-hand accident, yeah, exactly a chance. To think that, oh, I'm going to fake my death, all right?

And then I'm going to put my watch on this poor guy. And now you have to make it look like you dropped out of the plane. So then there had to have been another person aboard who you pushed out of the plane or you had to make it look like you dropped out of the plane. And then what are the chances that a fisherman finds him? So there's not really anyone there to positively ID him. And there's just so many ways for this to not just be, it was an accident he fell out. That was actually him.

Yeah. Yeah. It would take so much orchestrating for that to be the case. Yes. And I also don't think six people can stay quiet for their whole lives. I don't either. That's, I just don't think they can.

Unless they were like, but where did he go? Where did he go? Or is that really him? Or yeah, yeah. Did he go live a long life somewhere else? Or did he fall out of the sky? Yeah, it's wild.

And we'll never have answers. I don't even know how you would figure that out now. I don't either. I guess you could DNA test the body and be like, sure. But you still don't know how it happened. If no one was there, you can see it. Yeah. Or hear it.

Or hear it. Yeah. Yeah. Wow. That is crazy. That's when I have not been able to stop thinking about. I'm sure you also will not be able to talk about it. I'm sure you also will not be listening about it. Now I know it's gonna keep me up tonight.

I know. Just where is he, what happened? Poor Alfred. I know, poor guy. At the end of the day, even if he felt like he had, I don't know. I don't wanna be the person that's on a podcast. I also wanna be the person that's on a podcast.

I feel like I'm the person that's on a podcast. I feel like I'm the person that's on a podcast. I also wanna be the person that's on a podcast. I feel like I'm the person that's on a podcast. I just feel really sad. He had so much more money to spend. Yeah. So I'm just really sad. I'm really the person that's like poor billionaires. I just feel really sad. Because he had so much more money to spend. Yeah. So I'm just really sad. I'm really sad.

No, I mean, poor him if he actually died and fell off the plane. Yeah, of course, I know. But that's my biggest fear. At least his wife had 19 other planes to apply. Absolutely. So she could just be like, take that plane away. I don't want to see it again. I have 19 others.

But if someone fell out of the plane, how do you ever fly again? If I knew someone personally who fell out of a plane, flying is by far my biggest fear. Yeah. I would just never be able to use a plane. I don't know if I'd fly in the 20s. I was just beyond, I don't know if I even would have got on a plane.

I know. It was so close to planes actually being invented. Yes. There was just not that to planes actually being invented. Yes. There was just not that much time to improve them. Yes. So they were like, when you say it's wooden, yeah, wooden, hold me out. I would just imagine the wings snapping in half. Yes.

And I'd be like, yeah, it's the 20s. Yeah. It's what happens. That's what happens. That's what happens. Crazy. I think about that with planes now. I'm always worried about the planes.

I don't understand now the dynamic of planes. And I know someone can explain it to me. Right. I still don't think it'll get through my head. I don't understand how the wings don't snap off. I don't understand how when the wheels first hit the ground when you're landing, it doesn't just roll like a car on the freeway. I don't get it. And that's why people much smarter than us make these planes, but yeah, I agree I do panic the whole time that we're just gonna fall out of the sky and people have explained to me That's that is physically impossible, but I'm like, but it's this is the one time But it doesn't make sense, but it doesn't make sense. Plains in and of themselves are the biggest conspiracy Okay, absolutely. How do they work? No, I totally agree

Okay, well, I guess we'll jump right into my case now Yeah, that is a typical murder with my husband case. We cover true crime. Typically, it usually, it is with my husband. Today, it's with my work wife. But my husband hates true crime. I have been obsessed with it since I can remember.

I love it. And so you get kind of two different perspectives. One, I love it. One, I hate it. Yeah. It's a little bit for, like, it's me and my fiance can watch it or listen to it too, because he falls into that category and I fall into your category.

Right, I think most couples usually do. I agree. Yeah. Okay, so we are starting, it's the late afternoon on October 31st, 2002, so Halloween afternoon. The 21-year-old Chris Jenkins just finished his day We're 31st, 2002, so Halloween afternoon. The 21-year-old Chris Jenkins just finished his day of classes at the University of Minnesota's Business School. As a senior, tonight will be the last time

he gets to celebrate his favorite holiday on campus. And I remember Halloween during college, like it is just a fun party time, so I'm sure he's excited. Everyone goes all out. Yeah. So Chris heads back to the house he rents just off of campus and eagerly takes this year's costume out of the bag. He puts on the faux hide skin jumpsuit, secures a beaded headband

with a single red feather and dressed as an indigenous American chief heads over to his girlfriend Ashley's place. She opens up to show Chris, she went with a sexy cop as promised. The plan for tonight they are going to hit a few of the downtown Minneapolis bars, including the spot Ashley works, which is the lone tree bar and grill. As they round up a few friends, Ashley asks Chris, is he sure he doesn't want to bring a coat? It's a freezing cold night in Minnesota about 20 degrees tops. Chris tells her no way it's gonna ruin his costume, but maybe Ashley can carry his phone, his keys, and wallet for him because his

Heid skin suit doesn't have any pockets. And I've done this at concerts and stuff where I tell Garrett, I'm like, hold my phone, hold my lip gloss, I don't, I'm not gonna ruin my outfit. I know it's rare actually, I was thinking that the man doesn't have pockets in the situation. It's the taste of Zometacin. So now I realize that today, Chris's costume would seem a bit off-color to some, but in 2002, no one thought any less of Chris for it.

That night Chris was as popular as ever, chatting up everyone in the bar. He was always the kid who had and did it all. Captain of the school's lacrosse team, class clown, and a genuinely good friend to everyone around him. But as the evening went on, Chris seemed to be having a little too much fun. Shortly after midnight, he was approached by one of the bar managers about his behavior. With a giant stain on his costume, they insisted he was so drunk he must have urinated on himself. It was time for Chris to go to get out of the bar.

Chris and his friends though insisted, no, no, no, that's not pee. He only spilled on himself. It's just a drink. It was an accident and he'd switched over to water at this point. But now an employee was already escorting Chris out the front door with Ashley off mingling in the packed pub. Chris was forced outside in the freezing cold alone without his phone, his wallet, and his keys. And the bouncer refused to let him back in to go get them. They were like, nope, you are done. You're kicked out.

Yeah, there's no way for him to even tell her that he's out there. No. Yeah. So Chris starts walking north toward the hennapin bridge, the direction of campus. He's like, hey, I guess I'll just go back. Sorry, making my way home. The following day, Chris's parents called his cell to check in. But his roommate Ben was the one who answered. Ben explained that Chris was kicked out of the pub last night and seemingly never made it back to the house. After calling around a Chris's friends,

the Jenkins phoned the police around 10 p.m. that night. So they give it a whole day trying to find their son. They can't find him. No one's seen him since the night before. So they call police. But they were met with the same frustrating response. We see in many of these true crime cases since Chris was 18, the police wouldn't consider him missing until 72 hours had passed. So much can happen in 72 hours. So much. And I feel like this is something that we've kind of seen get a little bit better today based on the circumstances.

That's going to say I don't think it's 72 hours anymore. Yes, but we've seen this often with a lot of the cases. So Jan and Steven Jenkins, which are his parents, weren't going to sit idly by for three more days. By November 2nd, they were making the drive from Eden Prairie, Minnesota to Minneapolis, looking to hire a private detective to look into their son's case. And they found a man named Chuck Loesch, which

was a smart decision. Because even when those 72 hours came and went, the Minneapolis police were of little help to the family anyways. They insisted there wasn't much they could do until the body of Christopher Jenkins reappeared. There's nothing. They're like, no, we single thing. Yeah. To go look up. Yeah, go talk to the bar.

See who maybe last saw a check video footage. They say nope, not until we know that something sinister has happened, we really aren't gonna pay attention. So it's a good thing, they hired the private investigator. So thankfully Chuck was willing to do everything the police weren't. He began by retracing Chris's steps

after he left the bar the night he went missing. If he were to head back to his dorm on foot, he would have had to cross over the Hennepin Avenue bridge. So this big bridge, and there were two cameras outside the Federal Reserve building that had a great view of that path. But after reviewing the tapes, there's no sign of Chris crossing the bridge

the night he disappeared. So he didn't even really make it very far if that's the direction he went. Yeah, wow. So Chuck then interviewed several employees who worked at the lone tree bar on Halloween night. Something the police never do in the entirety of this case. And Chuck finds that several of the employees are now saying, no, Chris wasn't kicked out of the bar that night. He left on his own accord without his phone wallet and keys. Only his friends were like, no, that's not the truth. We were there. They said because

he had this stain and he was acting a little while, they kicked him out and we couldn't get him his stuff before it happens. Yeah, there's so many witnesses to that. Yeah. In fact, many of them were confused by the situation saying that Chris wasn't doing anything inappropriate that could have gotten him ejected that night. They're like, no, we specifically remember because we don't even think he was acting that wild. Yeah.

Yeah, he was escorted out by security through the front door and wasn't allowed back in. When Chuck goes back to the bar a few days later to chat with employees again, he finds they've all had to agree to a gag order. Otherwise, if anyone spoke about Chris Jenkins, they'd risk losing their job. So now there's a gag order. So now it's an open investigation, all of a sudden. For the private investigator, it's Chuck going back. Well, he's going back, but it's a gag order because now the police are involved.

Yes. Now all of a sudden the police decided to get involved. Well, I think it's a gag order from their boss. Oh, okay. Interesting. Yeah. But yes, technically a gag order would come from police. Yeah.

Interesting. It is interesting that it comes at this point. So Chris' girlfriend Ashley was actually seen flirting that night with a real off-duty police officer in the bar. So apparently this friend of hers even let him borrow one of his work shirts for her cop costume. Oh. So this is like an interesting detail that comes out as soon as this gag order is kind of given

Yeah out and the public learns about it now the lone tree bar was a known police officer hangout and rumor has it The cop Ashley was flirting with actually asked security to have Chris her boyfriend removed Just so he could remove Chris from the equation. So there's kind of this love Triangle yeah a little bit going on. That adds another element to it. And this was a married cop with kids, by the way, which might explain the now gag order from the police. Well, that's what I was thinking.

Yes. Yes. There was a gag order that was given at that exact moment where this information could have come out. Like, yes. Yeah. And also through the owner of the bar because he was threatening if anyone talked, they would be fired.

Exactly. And the reason the cops never questioned anyone working at the bar was because one of their own was that the bar that night during the disappearance and had a weird tie to the case. Yeah. Although it doesn't quite explain where Chris disappeared to after he left that evening, it's just another interesting clue. But over the next few weeks, Chuck learns that there was a giant fight up the street outside

a pizza shop in the hours after Chris vanished. Problem is, no one could confirm whether or not Chris was actually involved in that fight. However, one of the biggest clues came after the family hired two different search dogs. Both followed Chris's scent from the bar to that pizza shop and then down to a parking garage next door. Both dogs led them to spots 89 and 90 in the parking garage, where they found a few drops of blood and a piece of a red feather like the one in Chris's headband. Wow. When Chuck spoke to a parking lot attendant, he learned that one of those spots belonged to one of the bouncers at the lone tree bar.

So now it's all tying back to him getting kicked out of the bar. Yeah, and I know some people try to discredit search dogs, but to me they, they, they never miss. I just never miss. So good. I know. And especially in court, they get discredited a lot, right? Because they're all volunteers that do it. And I get it. But also these dogs are trained for this. And what are the chances that both dogs separately, both of them lead them back to the spot with blood, a feather, and a spot that leads back to a bouncer. Yeah, that's incredible. Still, the Minneapolis police refused to listen to the Jenkins family or the evidence that Chuck has uncovered. They're like, no, there's still no body like we can't get into it.

After a few months has passed, they still hadn't interviewed a single employee of the Lone Tree Bar and he's still missing. They never even bothered to examine the house he shared with his friends. It wasn't until February 27, 2003 that the police finally started to pay attention to Chris's case. Because that morning, Chris's body was discovered floating in the Mississippi River less than a mile away from the lone tree bar. And this is like five months later at that point? Five months later. Less than a mile away. He was wearing his chief costume, his shoes were still on his feet, and his arms were crossed

over his chest. The police were quick to assume he'd either died of suicide or had drunkenly fallen into the river on Halloween night. But there were plenty of clues that suggested otherwise, starting with the way his arms were positioned. If Chris had jumped to his death into the river, it was a strange position for his body to be found in. Usually in a situation like that, someone's arms would be down by their sides or floating out near them. Plus, there was no bruising on Chris's body. If you had fallen from the bridge, you'd think there would be injuries to indicate that fall. The autopsy also determined that Chris's blood alcohol content was quite low, especially if he was

as intoxicated as the lone tree employees claimed he was enough to get kicked out. Interestingly, your BAC level should increase with decomposition, which indicated to private investigators that Chris might have been kept alive for a period long enough to sober up a little before he was killed. So maybe he didn't die as soon as he left the bar. Right, maybe he was taken somewhere. Yes.

Yeah, wow. Perhaps most disturbing of all, Chris was found with a clump of somebody else's hair clutched in his left hand. It didn't appear to be his, but it was never tested, but it didn't even match his color of hair. OK. That's pretty easy to talk.

Yeah. I feel like it's the wrong color. In the end, Chris's death certificate read, quote, cause of death unknown, unknown apparent drowning manner of death undetermined. The police remained adamant though that Chris had died of suicide or by accident and that there was no foul play involved and closed the case. But the Jenkins weren't going to give up that easily. They knew someone was behind the death of their son and come April 2006. It was clear they weren't alone.

That month, the Jenkins received a phone call from two retired NYPD homicide detectives named Kevin, Ganon, and Anthony Duarte. They had reason to believe that Chris's death might be connected to a string of others, and he may have been the target of a faceless group of serial killers. The Jenkins were aware that Chris wasn't the only college student to go missing in the fall of 2002.

Within 10 days of his disappearance, a few others had disappeared within a 180 mile radius of one another. On November 6, Michael Noll, a 22 year old University of Wisconsin student, disappeared after leaving a bar after midnight. On November 9, Joshua Jeeman, a 20 year old St. John's University student in Collegeville, Minnesota, left a card game at a friends apartment and disappeared around 1 a.m. All of the men were excellent students and athletes, many came from middle to upper class families, they were handsome and responsible young adults, and all of them disappeared near a large body of water.

Michael and Chris were found floating in a similar fashion, however, Josh's body was never recovered. But this wasn't anything new for Detective Ganon and Duarte. They'd been following cases like this since 1997. They had been following these disappearances of young male adults. When a young man named Patrick McNeill first disappeared in New York City, that was when it all started. And after spending the night partying at a Manhattan bar, Patrick told his friends

he was taking the subway home, only he never made it there. He was discovered a month later, floating in the East River. After Patrick's death, Ganon and Duarte noticed a pattern. There were nearly 40 other young men who'd all disappeared after a drunken night out. Many of them were found dead in a body of water soon after. Sounds familiar,

just like Chris's. The cases spanned across 25 cities in 11 different states. And this is where this case takes an eerie infamous turn. In 22 of those 40 cases, they found a bizarre symbol nearby, one that was graffitied near where the bodies had been dumped. It was a picture of a smiley face. Sometimes that smiley face was drawn in red with devil horns. Other times it appeared with a note that read evil, happy smiley face man. That was a mouthful, by the way. On more than one occasion, it was accompanied with the word since Siniwa, which is an indigenous American word meaning rattlesnake.

So this is when Ganon and Duarte realized they might be dealing with a group of people, maybe a gang, a group of serial killers if you will that are going around abducting these men when they're drunk and vulnerable, killing them and then spray painting a smiley face nearby. Yeah, it's just, it's wild that they were the first ones to connect the smiley faces. If they're at over half of the sites, 22 of 40 have a smiley face spray painted

near the body of water where these boys are found. That's not like a common graffiti. I don't really see that out in the wild that much. So I think you would notice if there was that many symbols.. I think it's like the body of water tie to like it's not. Yes. Right. I mean, this is where the infamous smiley face killer comes into play. Yeah. But also there's all the I mean, the MO is the same. Yeah. Body of water is the same. The smiley face is the same. So perhaps it was a group that targeted young soon to be successful men, followed them around, maybe even drugged them, picked them up and tortured them before later dumping

their bodies in a river, a place that would wash away most of the evidence. Jan and Andoate named their hypothetical assailants the smiley face killers, and later shared their research with the FBI, hoping for a serious inquiry. But in 2008, the FBI publicly rejected the theory said there was no such thing as the smiley face killers. Yeah, wow. They released a statement claiming despite the consistencies between the cases, they hadn't

found any concrete evidence to support the links between the deaths. They remained steadfast in their opinion that these were all alcohol-related drownings and had not shown signs of foul play. Instead, they claimed the graffiti was just a coincidence. A common image that might be gang-associated but showed no direct connection to the victims themselves. They also pointed to the lack of bruising on the victim's bodies, which if they had been kept alive and tortured for a period of time before their deaths, there was no evidence of that shown in any of the autopsies, which is a good point. But these mysterious cases haven't disappeared over the years. As of 2017, they are still happening. And when you hear

the new evidence, it might seem more apparent that Ganon and Duarte were on to something. So on January 5th, 2017, 23 year old Dakota James disappeared after a night out in Pittsburgh. 40 days later, his body was pulled out of the Ohio River 10 miles from where he was last seen. Again, sounding very familiar. Like the others, Dakota was popular, well educated, athletic, and investigators found more than 11 different smiley face symbols close to where his body entered the river. 11. 11. The kicker is, just a few weeks before he vanished, Dakota called a friend in the middle of the night to say he'd woken up somewhere on the streets of Pittsburgh. He didn't know where he was or how he ended up there. The

last thing he remembered was going out with some co-workers to a bar after a Christmas party and he believed he'd been drugged. So was he being stalked by a smiley face killer in the weeks prior to his disappearance? Until the Smiley Face Killer theory is taken seriously, I'm not sure we'll have any answers. But of all the people Ganon and Duarte consider possible victims of the Smiley Face killers. Chris Jenkins was the only one whose case was reclassified from accidental drowning to homicide back in 2006. And yet no one has ever been charged with Chris's murder. Meanwhile, Ganon and Duarte have since upped their database to 681 potential victims.

To this day, they're still trying to prove whether the smiley face killers exist at all. And that is kind of the conspiracy theory around the smiley face killers. You hear about it often. It's all over Reddit threads and it's literally just young men who disappear after a night out drinking are found near large bodies of water and there's always a smiley face. Wow. I have so many thoughts because that's it's so tragic. It reminds me there's this one case around the turn of the century. The man from the train. Have you heard about this?

I haven't. Back in the early 1900s, there was all of these, like, the string of deaths that were maybe connected, they couldn't figure it out, but then they figured out that they were all along the same train line. And so they figured it was someone who was getting off the train, maybe committing these crimes, getting back on the train going to another seat. But it really takes someone paying attention to put that together. And you hear in a lot of true crime cases where counties aren't talking to each other. So deaths that could be connected are not being connected by the police.

And it seems like these two guys really are taking the time to put this together and they have this theory. And so it's just sad that no one is really taking it that seriously. And I think, OK, so I know the FBI has come out and said, there's no such thing as the smiley face killer, even though these young men keep popping up with smiley faces around.

But what's the harm in looking into it? Looking into it. Like what's the harm in actually taking a seriously? Maybe they did. Maybe they did back in 2008. But if it's still happening up till 2017, what's the harm in trying to connect cases? Because like you just said, how many times have we seen, oh, this guy was caught for this murder, turns out he killed in two different states back

10 years before. Yeah, and you're seeing this too with Austin. I know a lot of people are looking at Austin, Texas as a place where a lot of them are drowning. Okay, even if it's not a serial killer, why are so many men falling in this lake? Like let's look into that even if it's just a station. We put our guard rails up. Yeah, why is it being dismissed so easily? I also think you see this a lot with college students,

and maybe it's because kids go to college and they don't have their family nearby, they don't have friends, but oftentimes their disappearances are totally dismissed as like they ran away or they didn't like school, so they just left and everyone can read the writing on the wall that something's wrong, but the case is totally disposed.

100% And that sounds like criticism. I think because similar to sex workers or unhoused people, you're in a vulnerable state in college. You don't have this family around you. A lot of us didn't have this big support system in college. We were just alone living and that's vulnerable. Yeah.

Like that's vulnerable, which is maybe why it's just being brushed under the rug. Because it's like easy. It's easy to just be like, you know, all they ran off. If someone's targeting a group, that could be another group that they're targeting because they know it's easy to do something and not have it looked into. It is unfortunately very easy to drug someone at a bar. Yeah, and that stuff doesn't Isn't traceable. So if you are doing autopsy report, you're not gonna see that. So yeah, it's like a It's a crime that's very hard to pin on someone. So if that is what's happening and I think sometimes with conspiracy theories

I'm like, okay, let's not get out of hand here like even a theory Okay, it's myy face killer, whatever. Like, no, it probably didn't happen. But then what happened to Chris? I know. Yeah, that's the one I got. He was at a bar. He mysteriously got kicked out.

His girlfriend might be having a fun time with a local cop who's married. Yeah. He gets kicked out. Without reason, really, his friends are making it sound like two dogs catch his scent going down to a parking garage there's blood there's a feather it looks like he got caught I mean it looks like he got picked up yeah left this the

location you said that it was an employee that parked there yeah that employee probably parks there every day that they go to work why just check whose car it was like and where they go and And what like, I don't know. And I think if there's no footage of him getting on the bridge, then he didn't jump or fall by accident. Right. Of course. Yeah.

That's another. And this is what I mean, I know that it's now been turned to a homicide case, so we don't have to blame anyone. But it's like, it obviously didn't have anything to do with him falling into the water. There were no signs of a fall in his autopsy, but for that long, it was dismissed as an accident. Yeah. You know? It's so sad to me that his family had to probably shell out so much money to hire all the resources to try and figure out what happened.

And Garrett and I say this often with these cases, there is always more victims than just the victim. Of course, yeah. Whatever happened to Chris, his family's hurting, his family's sitting there going, why is no one taking our baby kids case seriously? Why am I having to do the work? Why am I having to hire the private investigator? Why did it take that long to find them when his body was a mile away like how frustrating to feel like no one cares yeah you know you shouldn't have to feel like you have to go search the river right for

your child for your own child yeah yeah I can't even imagine so whatever's happening to these young men whether it's in Austin or Smiley Face Killer or just all the ones we talked about today, I think it's clear to say something is happening. Yeah. I don't know, like you said, is it just an epidemic we're seeing with drunk young adults getting a little too drunk and falling into the water or is there something more sinister at play? Yeah, like either way, it feels like something can be done. Just look out for your friends.

It's so check in on your friends. Don't let them get kicked out alone. Don't let them take drinks from strangers. Yes. That are open. Yes. It's never your fault. We're not victim blaming.

Never, never, never. We're just saying, let's watch out for each other because it's a dangerous world. And it seems, especially from what people are saying in Austin, it seems like that's a big problem in Austin. Yeah. Anyways, it's just people getting drugged, so it never hurts to just watch out for your friends.

Just to be careful. Wild. Well, that was a case that has been very highly requested by my listeners, so I'm sure they're going to be very interested in more of this. If you ever do a deeper dive, let me know. So I can let murder with my husband listeners know. Or you can just go listen.

And then if she does a deeper dive, you get it. Because I know you like to dive really deep into this. And this had to be a little brief. We kind of just did a little sample of each. So if you even liked it at all, go check it out. Go check it out. Absolutely.

There's I think there's a lot of overlap with the show. Oh first. The research based. Yep. Yeah. The types of stories we tell. So. Yeah. Yeah. I'm really excited that we're talking about. This is so fun. We've been planning this for so long. For so long. We're getting it to do it. So happy that I got to see the new space. Yeah. Everything looks awesome. It's so fun. So fun. OK, everyone. Thank you for listening. Yeah, thank you so much.

And I guess both of us will see you on our own shows next time. Yeah. Absolutely. Bye. Bye. Bye. you